Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:02 AM - Re: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 10/29/10 (Catz631@aol.com)
2. 04:47 AM - Re: Re: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 10/29/10 (Gilles Thesee)
3. 07:36 AM - Re: Re: Prop Strike crank damage (bjones@dmv.com)
4. 08:05 AM - Re: Prop Strike crank damage (Roger Lee)
5. 08:32 AM - Re: rotax 912 crankshaft (lucien)
6. 08:56 AM - Re: Re: rotax 912 crankshaft (Carlos Trigo)
7. 09:06 AM - Re: Re: rotax 912 crankshaft (Richard Girard)
8. 09:19 AM - 912 Exhaust Temp Question (ricklach)
9. 11:31 AM - Re: 912 Exhaust Temp Question (Ollie Washburn)
10. 01:06 PM - 912 ULS Oil Pressure Sender (John Fasching)
11. 01:23 PM - Re: 912 ULS Oil Pressure Sender (Pete Christensen)
12. 02:19 PM - Re: 912 ULS Oil Pressure Sender (Roger Lee)
13. 02:31 PM - Re: 912 Exhaust Temp Question (Roger Lee)
14. 03:24 PM - Re: Re: 912 ULS Oil Pressure Sender (Ivan)
15. 05:04 PM - Re: 912 ULS Oil Pressure Sender (Richard Girard)
16. 10:30 PM - Re: Re: 912 Exhaust Temp Question (Joel M.)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 10/29/10 |
In a message dated 10/30/2010 2:04:32 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
rotaxengines-list@matronics.com writes:
Because rotax 912 crank is composite (almost incredible for a 4 stroke
engine of
so high price) i'd like to know from rotax list experience if someone else
has
experienced crankshaft problems on his 912 engine.
How do you figure the crank is composite ? Having held it in my hands it is
made of metal like every other crank. It just comes as one piece(including
the rods) and yes it can fail like every other engine crank.
Dick Maddux
912UL
Milton,Fl
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: RotaxEngines-List Digest: 3 Msgs - 10/29/10 |
Catz631@aol.com a crit :
> In a message dated 10/30/2010 2:04:32 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
> rotaxengines-list@matronics.com writes:
>
> Because rotax 912 crank is composite (almost incredible for a 4
> stroke engine of
> so high price) i'd like to know from rotax list experience if
> someone else has
> experienced crankshaft problems on his 912 engine.
>
> How do you figure the crank is composite ? Having held it in my hands
> it is made of metal like every other crank. It just comes as one
> piece(including the rods) and yes it can fail like every other engine
> crank.
>
>
Dick and all,
Nicola may have meant "assembled crankshaft" or something to that
effect, as opposed to "one-piece crankshaft".
Concerning Nicola's question. When one designs an engine, one has the
choice between one-piece con rods and assembled crankshaft or two-piece
con rods and one-piece crankshaft. Neither solution is superior to the
other, it all depends on the design goals that are to be met by the
projected engine. It has strictly nothing to do with the price of the
engine. Big radials, the moste intricate powerful aero engine mostly
have two or three piece crankshafts.
The Rotax engines show fairly good service life records despite being
poorly installed in some aircraft, and frequently abused. And yes, like
any other engines some of them do fail, especially when grossly abused
(eg overreved, overheated, lacking oil).
See http://contrails.free.fr/engine_rotax_casse.php (French only for
some time I'm afraid ;-)
Best regards,
--
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Prop Strike crank damage |
912 crank shafts are not one single piece of metal but units press fit
together.
Apparently, prior to the introduction of the slipper clutch in late model
gear boxes, prop strikes caused a rotation in the press together junctions
of the 912 crank shaft, which could not be detected by measuring prop
shaft flange "run out" at the gear case or crank shaft flange "run out".
Maybe 10 percent of 912 prop strikes result in crank shaft rotation,
primarily in older pre slipper clutch engines, and if not detected these
result in engine failure.
Crank shaft internal rotation has probably gone undiagnosed in many 912s
after prop strike. And my bet is prop strikes may not always show up in
logs, so buyers of used aircraft should probably ask questions if they
find indications that a prop or blades ahve been replaced.
I understand that Lockwood Aviation in Sebring, Florida can measure
internal rotation within the 912 crank shaft caused by prop strike.
Anyone having better information, or direct field experience on this might
want to chime in. My info is NOT from direct experience, but from what I
know to be a very knowlegable source.
BJ
N154K
>
> In a message dated 10/30/2010 2:04:32 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
> rotaxengines-list@matronics.com writes:
>
> Because rotax 912 crank is composite (almost incredible for a 4 stroke
> engine of
> so high price) i'd like to know from rotax list experience if someone
> else
> has
> experienced crankshaft problems on his 912 engine.
>
>
> How do you figure the crank is composite ? Having held it in my hands it
> is
> made of metal like every other crank. It just comes as one
> piece(including
> the rods) and yes it can fail like every other engine crank.
>
> Dick Maddux
> 912UL
> Milton,Fl
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Prop Strike crank damage |
If you have a prop strike there is a procedure to follow. It isn't hard, but will
tell you if you have further damage and absolutely needs to be done because
you will not see the hidden damage with your eye. The procedure is in the maint
manual under special checks. The gearbox needs inspection and the crank needs
a run out check which can be done right there on the plane. The full amount
of damage will also partly depend on whether you hit the ground at full throttle
or at idle and depends on what prop you have on the plane. If you have a prop
strike do the maint and be done with it. It will require a gearbox inspection
and a run out check on the prop flange and shaft. You will be paying for a
new oil shaft seal and a bearing. If the engine has a number of hours on it most
likely 3 new bellview washers, too. About $160-$200 for all. If you really
tagged the prop flange or bent the prop shaft add another $650. Thank God for
the clutch because that will usually protect your crank. This is the perfect
scenario about keeping you engine up.
For those that use 100LL all the time then you really need to pull the gearbox
by 800 hrs. and send the clutch in to have all the lead paste removed because
that will keep it from functioning correctly or even keep it from working at all.
If you have a strike I can do the inspections.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=317490#317490
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: rotax 912 crankshaft |
ndibiase wrote:
>
> Because rotax 912 crank is composite (almost incredible for a 4 stroke engine
of so high price)
Not really. The rational is probably the captive rods, which probably leaves you
with the only economical alternative for assembling the crank to be the press-fit
multiple pieces.
I'd bet the advantages of the captive rods outweighed the drawback of the composite
crankshaft. Captive rods don't have the extra weight and bulk at the big
end that capped rods do, so that's less rotating mass. Also the crankcase can
be made smaller because you don't have to enlargen the passages to accomodate
the caps, shoulders and studs. All that reduces size and weight, both of the engine
itself and the rotating assembly.
That's probably how Rotax has managed to make a 5500rpm all the time motor do so
for 2000+ hours.. ;)
There may be a way to manufacture a one-piece crank with captive rods, but I bet
it's not economically feasible.....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=317491#317491
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: rotax 912 crankshaft |
To put it clearly, the word =93composite=94 here doesn=92t mean the
crankshaft is
made of fibreglass, carbon fibre or any other composite material. It is
metallic !!
The word =93composite=94 here means press-fit multiple pieces, not one
single
piece crankshaft.
(English is indeed a very nice language but also has some wording
issues=85.)
And Lucien explained the reasons why Rotax must have chosen this
construction method
Carlos
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-
> list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of lucien
> Sent: s=E1bado, 30 de Outubro de 2010 16:30
> To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: rotax 912 crankshaft
>
<lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
>
>
> ndibiase wrote:
> >
> > Because rotax 912 crank is composite (almost incredible for a 4
stroke
engine of
> so high price)
>
>
> Not really. The rational is probably the captive rods, which probably
leaves you with
> the only economical alternative for assembling the crank to be the
press-fit multiple
> pieces.
>
> I'd bet the advantages of the captive rods outweighed the drawback of
the
> composite crankshaft. Captive rods don't have the extra weight and
bulk at
the big
> end that capped rods do, so that's less rotating mass. Also the
crankcase
can be
> made smaller because you don't have to enlargen the passages to
accomodate
the
> caps, shoulders and studs. All that reduces size and weight, both of
the
engine
> itself and the rotating assembly.
>
> That's probably how Rotax has managed to make a 5500rpm all the time
motor
do
> so for 2000+ hours.. ;)
>
> There may be a way to manufacture a one-piece crank with captive rods,
but
I bet
> it's not economically feasible.....
>
> LS
>
> --------
> LS
> Titan II SS
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=317491#317491
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: rotax 912 crankshaft |
Lucien, all, No, actually there is no other way to make the crank of the
912. Look at the relationship of the rod journals to the crank throws. The
throws are not straight as they are in the VW say, they are offset. This
results in a shorter crank, for the same reasons as you noted about the big
ends of the rods, less weight. The problem is, how would you go about
grinding the rod journal with the crank throw covering about a third of the
journal for about half of its area?
Rick Girard
On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 10:30 AM, lucien <lstavenhagen@hotmail.com> wrote:
> lstavenhagen@hotmail.com>
>
>
> ndibiase wrote:
> >
> > Because rotax 912 crank is composite (almost incredible for a 4 stroke
> engine of so high price)
>
>
> Not really. The rational is probably the captive rods, which probably
> leaves you with the only economical alternative for assembling the crank to
> be the press-fit multiple pieces.
>
> I'd bet the advantages of the captive rods outweighed the drawback of the
> composite crankshaft. Captive rods don't have the extra weight and bulk at
> the big end that capped rods do, so that's less rotating mass. Also the
> crankcase can be made smaller because you don't have to enlargen the
> passages to accomodate the caps, shoulders and studs. All that reduces size
> and weight, both of the engine itself and the rotating assembly.
>
> That's probably how Rotax has managed to make a 5500rpm all the time motor
> do so for 2000+ hours.. ;)
>
> There may be a way to manufacture a one-piece crank with captive rods, but
> I bet it's not economically feasible.....
>
> LS
>
> --------
> LS
> Titan II SS
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=317491#317491
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Kolb Mk IIIC
582 Gray head
4.00 C gearbox
3 blade WD
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable
to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
Message 8
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| Subject: | 912 Exhaust Temp Question |
After installing a new Grand Rapids EIS 2000 to monitor my Rotax 912S engine, I
now have a lot more information to worry about. The first thing that Im not to
sure about is the EGT readings. Its showing 1550 to 1680 all the time. The sensors
are about three inches from the cylinder heads per the installation instructions.
The other important thing, the exhaust pipes are wrapped to the muffler
with Exhaust Insulating Wrap. I sure this increases the temperature in the
pipe, but by how much? What are you guys with digital EGT set-ups seeing for
temps? Can you give me any comparison temperatures, to give me an idea as to
what I should be seeing. One more thing, Im running premium auto gas.
--------
701Driver
N35 26.700, W118 16.743
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=317497#317497
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: 912 Exhaust Temp Question |
My temps with EIS run about 1550* I run both 100 and auto and don't
see any difference.
On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 12:17 PM, ricklach <rick@ravenaviation.us> wrote:
>
> After installing a new Grand Rapids EIS 2000 to monitor my Rotax 912S engine,
I now have a lot more information to worry about. The first thing that Im not
to sure about is the EGT readings. Its showing 1550 to 1680 all the time
>
> --------
> 701Driver
> N35 26.700, W118 16.743
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=317497#317497
>
>
--
>From Central Florida,
Ollie
Message 10
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| Subject: | 912 ULS Oil Pressure Sender |
I need to replace the oil pressue sender on my Rotax 912ULS. Is the one
that California Power Systems (their part #956355) has the one I need?
The photo looks exactly like the one Lockwood shows as their #956357.
Your take on this?
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: 912 ULS Oil Pressure Sender |
Did you call Kitfox?
Pete
On 10/30/2010 3:03 PM, John Fasching wrote:
> I need to replace the oil pressue sender on my Rotax 912ULS. Is the
> one that California Power Systems (their part #956355) has the one I
> need? The photo looks exactly like the one Lockwood shows as their
> #956357.
> Your take on this?
> *
>
>
> *
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: 912 ULS Oil Pressure Sender |
Hi John,
Those are the same and the genuine Rotax part for around $220.
You can get the identical VDO oil pressure sender from either of these guys for
$35. It just won't have the anti vibration ring on it. I have seen some people
take a heat gun and remove the ring and put it on the new sender. These two
senders are the same VDO 0-150 psi 1/8-27 thread sender. It's just the ring that
is different. 90% of the people just get the other sender for $35. You could
purchase several of the less expensive ones for the price of one of the others.
I have not had to replace one of the less expensive senders and I have replaced
many of the one's with the metal ring on it. It's your choice. Lockwood's
number is V360-004. This is the single pole sender. If you need the double pole
that number is V360-025.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=317517#317517
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: 912 Exhaust Temp Question |
If you use exhaust header wrap you absolutely can't have the wrap touching the
sender on the top, underneath or the sides. I did a research project on this with
Dynon units and found that what ever the composition of the wrap is it interferes
with the milli volt signal in the sender. I talked to Rotax and Dynon
and no one had any explanation. It happened to me and as soon as I moved the wrap
away from the sender my temps were not swinging and fell back about 80-100
degrees. Normal EGT temps depending on the OAT and if you have a cowl and or
a tight cowl may be between 1350F-1480F. This is some of the problem with the
new digital EMS's is that they give a lot of info, but you need to know how to
interpret that info or you may lead yourself down the wrong path and if nothing
else go insane. Many people don't have a digital EMS so they never see any
of this data and most likely live a more stress free life, so don't get to over
wrought with trying to make numbers always be like some one else's or make them
perfect. There is no such thing. Look at the Rotax manual and so long as the
numbers are between the lows and highs you are probably just fine. There will
be a difference in your many numbers between seasons, too.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=317518#317518
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: 912 ULS Oil Pressure Sender |
Good point, BUT only applies to experimental aircraft. If it is registered
as an S-LSA then we are stuck putting on only Rotax brand parts as per their
bulletin a couple of years (?) ago.
Ivan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1@yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2010 2:17 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 912 ULS Oil Pressure Sender
>
> Hi John,
>
> Those are the same and the genuine Rotax part for around $220.
> You can get the identical VDO oil pressure sender from either of these
> guys for $35. It just won't have the anti vibration ring on it. I have
> seen some people take a heat gun and remove the ring and put it on the new
> sender. These two senders are the same VDO 0-150 psi 1/8-27 thread sender.
> It's just the ring that is different. 90% of the people just get the other
> sender for $35. You could purchase several of the less expensive ones for
> the price of one of the others. I have not had to replace one of the less
> expensive senders and I have replaced many of the one's with the metal
> ring on it. It's your choice. Lockwood's number is V360-004. This is the
> single pole sender. If you need the double pole that number is V360-025.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center
> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
> Cell 520349-7056
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=317517#317517
>
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: 912 ULS Oil Pressure Sender |
Which part number is called out in the IPC?
Rick Girard
On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 3:03 PM, John Fasching <n29cx@ridgeviewtel.us>wrote:
> I need to replace the oil pressue sender on my Rotax 912ULS. Is the one
> that California Power Systems (their part #956355) has the one I need? The
> photo looks exactly like the one Lockwood shows as their #956357.
>
> Your take on this?
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Kolb Mk IIIC
582 Gray head
4.00 C gearbox
3 blade WD
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable
to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: 912 Exhaust Temp Question |
Why is everyone worrying about EGT when you can't do anything about it anyw
ay, There is no mixture control.- Get rid of the EGT gauge and save yours
elf some stress.
Joel
--- On Sat, 10/30/10, Roger Lee <ssadiver1@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Roger Lee <ssadiver1@yahoo.com>
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 912 Exhaust Temp Question
If you use exhaust header wrap you absolutely can't have the wrap touching
the sender on the top, underneath or the sides. I did a research project on
this with Dynon units and found that what ever the composition of the wrap
is it interferes with the milli volt signal in the sender. I talked to Rot
ax and Dynon and no one had any explanation. It happened to me and as soon
as I moved the wrap away from the sender my temps were not swinging and fel
l back about 80-100 degrees. Normal EGT temps depending on the OAT and if y
ou have a cowl and or a tight cowl may be between 1350F-1480F. This is some
of the problem with the new digital EMS's is that they give a lot of info,
but you need to know how to interpret that info or you may lead yourself d
own the wrong path and if nothing else go insane. Many people don't have a
digital EMS so they never see any of this data and most likely live a more
stress free life, so don't get to over wrought with trying to make
numbers always be like!
- some one else's or make them perfect. There is no such thing. Look at t
he Rotax manual and so long as the numbers are between the lows and highs y
ou are probably just fine. There will be a difference in your many numbers
between seasons, too.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080- TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=317518#317518
le, List Admin.
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