Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:56 AM - Re: Noisy Facet fuel pump (Geoff Heap)
2. 08:13 AM - Re: Rough running cured with carb heater (Noel Loveys)
3. 09:51 AM - Re: Rough running cured with carb heater (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3hann_J=F3hannsson?=)
4. 10:52 AM - Re: Rough running cured with carb heater (Richard Girard)
5. 01:45 PM - Re: Rough running cured with carb heater (Noel Loveys)
6. 02:50 PM - Re: Rough running cured with carb heater (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3hann_J=F3hannsson?=)
7. 03:06 PM - Re: Rough running cured with carb heater (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3hann_J=F3hannsson?=)
8. 05:43 PM - Re: Rough running cured with carb heater (Roger Lee)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Noisy Facet fuel pump |
Johann. Nice to hear from you. It's been a while. Yes, I know your fuel system
well. So the noise may stay. Oh well. By the way, I think your gross weight would
be 960 lbs as its from older plans like mine. How do you like this aspect
of your 701......Geoff
--------
Dual controls. Dynon 180. Icom 210 Garmin 296. Becker transponder. Sigtronics intercom.
Electric flaperons.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=320580#320580
Message 2
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| Subject: | Rough running cured with carb heater |
I only mentioned the airbox because history weems to prove the 912 is much
more susceptible to cerb icing when the airbox is installed. If the two
individual filters ate installed then the problem with carb icing doesn't
seem to occur for some reason. Certainly if you notice the engine running
rough and pulling the carb heat clears it in about five minutes ( it isn't
an immediate clearing ) then you have experienced carb ice.
The only thing wrong with it is you have to depend upon another piece of
equipment to keep your engine running but guys have been doing that with
carb heat since WW 1.
The only trick to using carb heat is to pull it on as soon as you notice a
roughness in the engine and then give it time to work. Yes Carb heat does
use a non-filtered air supply but the filtration of that air supply is only
a screen. Screens have been closed off in the past with impact ice. So if
you see impact ice expect a problem there. More often than not impact ice
occurs when encountering freezing rain. In that case you climb as fast as
you can. Freezing rain occurs when you have a temperature inversion and
climbing will bring you into warmer air... Mind, you may not have a lot of
time to make the decision to climb so the best thing to do is avoid
freezing rain at all times. I have already lost a friend to freezing
rain.... He was flying a Grumman Widgeon...Full IFR.
A few years ago a young local cadet was taking her father for his first ride
in a small plane when she ran into engine trouble. She pulled the carb
heat...nothing, so she set up a forced approach on the main drag of a small
town which she expertly manoeuvred missing several power lines crossing the
road. Once on the ground the engine started and ran perfectly. If she had
left the carb heat on and the engine running it would have cleared itself.
The plane still had to be disassembled to be returned to the airport.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jhann
Jhannsson
Sent: November 21, 2010 2:18 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rough running cured with carb heater
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3hann_J=F3hannsson?= <joeing701@simnet.is>
Hello all,
Yes Noel, my friend has the airbox on his Kitfox. He did a few checks
today as recommended by Roger and Gordon.
Carbs were adjusted and balanced. The mixture on the jet needles/
needle jets were enriched and are now in the bottom groove on the
needle.
The diaphragm is properly installed and the propeller is set for the
correct rpm. We even tried to remove the air hoses from the carbs to
eliminate carb ice. No change.
The engine runs fine on the low rpm but will not run smooth unless the
carb heat is used.
The needles are all standard as recommended by Rotax.
Any more advice will be really appreciated,
Best regards,
Johann G.
Iceland.
On 21.11.2010, at 15:57, Noel Loveys wrote:
<noelloveys@yahoo.ca
> >
>
> Apparently icing is mostly experienced with 912s which have the
> airbox.
> Engines with direct filtration almost never experience ice... go
> figure.
>
> Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Jhann
> Jhannsson
> Sent: November 20, 2010 7:55 PM
> To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rough running cured with carb heater
>
> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3hann_J=F3hannsson?= <joeing701@simnet.is>
>
> Thank you Gordon.
> I know my friend has a new air filter and the airbox does eliminate
> the cold air from the filter and only passes the hot air from the
> exhaust pipe. We will look at the mixture setting.
> Thanks again.
>
> Johann G.
> Iceland.
>
>
> On 20.11.2010, at 22:49, Gordon wrote:
>
>>
>> Carb heat bypasses the air filter, at least on most set-ups, so
>> maybe a clogged filter.
>> It also introduces warm air which is less dense, so it could be that
>> the mixture of one or both carbs is set to lean for the normal
>> (cold) air --my guess.
>> Gordon
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jhann Jhannsson"
> <joeing701@simnet.is
>>>
>> To: <rotaxengines-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 1:33 PM
>> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Rough running cured with carb heater
>>
>>
>>> J=F3hann_J=F3hannsson?= <joeing701@simnet.is>
>>>
>>> Hello list members.
>>>
>>> I have a friend who has been having problems with the Rotax 912 UL
>>> in a Kitfox 3. When flying today in a temp. around 40F, the
>>> engine ran rough until he pulled the carb heat on. Ran very smooth
>>> and never as good.
>>> What do you think could cause this problem? We measured the carb
>>> levels and they are very similar. 1/8 of an inch. One carb was
>>> definitely running bad because the EGT dropped on one exhaust.
>>> No carb ice and the carbs have been rebuild. Any ideas?
>>>
>>> Johann G.
>>> Iceland.
>>> Zenith 701
>>> Rotax 912UL.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Rough running cured with carb heater |
Hello Noel.
Thank you for the advice.
I think my friend will just fly with the carb heat on until he can get
a new set of jet needles and needle jets that will give him a richer
mixture. The plane originally came from the south region of the US,
and I do believe that the second owner,
whom my friend bought the plane from, never did get it to run
properly. He lived in the Pennsylvania area. I know there were other
problems that were not dealt with by him, but my friend has fixed a
few item which would have cause a rough and bad running of the engine.
The carb heat setting cures the rough running as soon as it is turned
on. No delay or melting of ice. This is mostly during engine run-up on
the ground.
If anyone knows of a way to eliminate the heat box and install the K&N
filters directly to the carbs on a Kitfox 3, please keep me informed.
My set-up on the Zenith 701 has never cause carb ice, at least never
that I have notice.
Best regards,
Johann G.
Iceland.
On 23.11.2010, at 16:01, Noel Loveys wrote:
> >
>
> I only mentioned the airbox because history weems to prove the 912
> is much
> more susceptible to cerb icing when the airbox is installed. If the
> two
> individual filters ate installed then the problem with carb icing
> doesn't
> seem to occur for some reason. Certainly if you notice the engine
> running
> rough and pulling the carb heat clears it in about five minutes ( it
> isn't
> an immediate clearing ) then you have experienced carb ice.
>
> The only thing wrong with it is you have to depend upon another
> piece of
> equipment to keep your engine running but guys have been doing that
> with
> carb heat since WW 1.
>
> The only trick to using carb heat is to pull it on as soon as you
> notice a
> roughness in the engine and then give it time to work. Yes Carb
> heat does
> use a non-filtered air supply but the filtration of that air supply
> is only
> a screen. Screens have been closed off in the past with impact
> ice. So if
> you see impact ice expect a problem there. More often than not
> impact ice
> occurs when encountering freezing rain. In that case you climb as
> fast as
> you can. Freezing rain occurs when you have a temperature inversion
> and
> climbing will bring you into warmer air... Mind, you may not have a
> lot of
> time to make the decision to climb so the best thing to do is avoid
> freezing rain at all times. I have already lost a friend to freezing
> rain.... He was flying a Grumman Widgeon...Full IFR.
>
> A few years ago a young local cadet was taking her father for his
> first ride
> in a small plane when she ran into engine trouble. She pulled the
> carb
> heat...nothing, so she set up a forced approach on the main drag of
> a small
> town which she expertly manoeuvred missing several power lines
> crossing the
> road. Once on the ground the engine started and ran perfectly. If
> she had
> left the carb heat on and the engine running it would have cleared
> itself.
> The plane still had to be disassembled to be returned to the airport.
>
> Noel
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Rough running cured with carb heater |
Johann, Please try to convince your friend to ground his airplane until the
source of this problem is found. That you have a marginal fix only means
that by flying with it in that configuration you are removing that from you
r
possibilities should an inflight emergency arise. Aircraft accidents are
generally not made of One Big Thing going wrong, but rather a series of
small things that by themselves are manageable, but when combined at the
wrong moment bring disaster.
Attacking the jetting is most probably the wrong thing to do, as well. Ther
e
are literally thousands of these engines flying with only minor adjustments
to the clip setting of the jet needle, and those are almost always to go
leaner, not richer.
If your friend cannot solve this problem, try to convince him to remove the
engine, crate it up and send it an authorized repair station where they can
diagnose it properly.
My 2 cents.
Rick Girard
2010/11/23 J=F3hann J=F3hannsson <joeing701@simnet.is>
> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3hann_J=F3hannsson?= <joeing701@simnet.is>
>
> Hello Noel.
>
> Thank you for the advice.
> I think my friend will just fly with the carb heat on until he can get a
> new set of jet needles and needle jets that will give him a richer mixtur
e.
> The plane originally came from the south region of the US, and I do belie
ve
> that the second owner,
> whom my friend bought the plane from, never did get it to run properly. H
e
> lived in the Pennsylvania area. I know there were other problems that wer
e
> not dealt with by him, but my friend has fixed a few item which would hav
e
> cause a rough and bad running of the engine.
> The carb heat setting cures the rough running as soon as it is turned on.
> No delay or melting of ice. This is mostly during engine run-up on the
> ground.
> If anyone knows of a way to eliminate the heat box and install the K&N
> filters directly to the carbs on a Kitfox 3, please keep me informed.
> My set-up on the Zenith 701 has never cause carb ice, at least never that
I
> have notice.
>
> Best regards,
> Johann G.
> Iceland.
>
>
> On 23.11.2010, at 16:01, Noel Loveys wrote:
>
>> noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
>>
>> I only mentioned the airbox because history weems to prove the 912 is mu
ch
>> more susceptible to cerb icing when the airbox is installed. If the two
>> individual filters ate installed then the problem with carb icing doesn'
t
>> seem to occur for some reason. Certainly if you notice the engine runni
ng
>> rough and pulling the carb heat clears it in about five minutes ( it isn
't
>> an immediate clearing ) then you have experienced carb ice.
>>
>> The only thing wrong with it is you have to depend upon another piece of
>> equipment to keep your engine running but guys have been doing that with
>> carb heat since WW 1.
>>
>> The only trick to using carb heat is to pull it on as soon as you notic
e
>> a
>> roughness in the engine and then give it time to work. Yes Carb heat do
es
>> use a non-filtered air supply but the filtration of that air supply is
>> only
>> a screen. Screens have been closed off in the past with impact ice. So
>> if
>> you see impact ice expect a problem there. More often than not impact i
ce
>> occurs when encountering freezing rain. In that case you climb as fast
as
>> you can. Freezing rain occurs when you have a temperature inversion and
>> climbing will bring you into warmer air... Mind, you may not have a lot
>> of
>> time to make the decision to climb so the best thing to do is avoid
>> freezing rain at all times. I have already lost a friend to freezing
>> rain.... He was flying a Grumman Widgeon...Full IFR.
>>
>> A few years ago a young local cadet was taking her father for his first
>> ride
>> in a small plane when she ran into engine trouble. She pulled the carb
>> heat...nothing, so she set up a forced approach on the main drag of a
>> small
>> town which she expertly manoeuvred missing several power lines crossing
>> the
>> road. Once on the ground the engine started and ran perfectly. If she
>> had
>> left the carb heat on and the engine running it would have cleared itsel
f.
>> The plane still had to be disassembled to be returned to the airport.
>>
>> Noel
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Kolb Mk IIIC
582 Gray head
4.00 C gearbox
3 blade WD
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unabl
e
to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
Message 5
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| Subject: | Rough running cured with carb heater |
If no delay then it is probably an obstruction in the air intake.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jhann
Jhannsson
Sent: November 23, 2010 2:18 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rough running cured with carb heater
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3hann_J=F3hannsson?= <joeing701@simnet.is>
Hello Noel.
Thank you for the advice.
I think my friend will just fly with the carb heat on until he can get
a new set of jet needles and needle jets that will give him a richer
mixture. The plane originally came from the south region of the US,
and I do believe that the second owner,
whom my friend bought the plane from, never did get it to run
properly. He lived in the Pennsylvania area. I know there were other
problems that were not dealt with by him, but my friend has fixed a
few item which would have cause a rough and bad running of the engine.
The carb heat setting cures the rough running as soon as it is turned
on. No delay or melting of ice. This is mostly during engine run-up on
the ground.
If anyone knows of a way to eliminate the heat box and install the K&N
filters directly to the carbs on a Kitfox 3, please keep me informed.
My set-up on the Zenith 701 has never cause carb ice, at least never
that I have notice.
Best regards,
Johann G.
Iceland.
On 23.11.2010, at 16:01, Noel Loveys wrote:
<noelloveys@yahoo.ca
> >
>
> I only mentioned the airbox because history weems to prove the 912
> is much
> more susceptible to cerb icing when the airbox is installed. If the
> two
> individual filters ate installed then the problem with carb icing
> doesn't
> seem to occur for some reason. Certainly if you notice the engine
> running
> rough and pulling the carb heat clears it in about five minutes ( it
> isn't
> an immediate clearing ) then you have experienced carb ice.
>
> The only thing wrong with it is you have to depend upon another
> piece of
> equipment to keep your engine running but guys have been doing that
> with
> carb heat since WW 1.
>
> The only trick to using carb heat is to pull it on as soon as you
> notice a
> roughness in the engine and then give it time to work. Yes Carb
> heat does
> use a non-filtered air supply but the filtration of that air supply
> is only
> a screen. Screens have been closed off in the past with impact
> ice. So if
> you see impact ice expect a problem there. More often than not
> impact ice
> occurs when encountering freezing rain. In that case you climb as
> fast as
> you can. Freezing rain occurs when you have a temperature inversion
> and
> climbing will bring you into warmer air... Mind, you may not have a
> lot of
> time to make the decision to climb so the best thing to do is avoid
> freezing rain at all times. I have already lost a friend to freezing
> rain.... He was flying a Grumman Widgeon...Full IFR.
>
> A few years ago a young local cadet was taking her father for his
> first ride
> in a small plane when she ran into engine trouble. She pulled the
> carb
> heat...nothing, so she set up a forced approach on the main drag of
> a small
> town which she expertly manoeuvred missing several power lines
> crossing the
> road. Once on the ground the engine started and ran perfectly. If
> she had
> left the carb heat on and the engine running it would have cleared
> itself.
> The plane still had to be disassembled to be returned to the airport.
>
> Noel
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Rough running cured with carb heater |
Thank you Noel.
We will look into that. The filter is new and clean. But there must be
a reason for the warm air requirement in his setup.
He spent all last summer and the winter so far to try to figure this
out with no avail. Very frustrating.
Best regards.
Johann G.
On 23.11.2010, at 21:38, Noel Loveys wrote:
> >
>
> If no delay then it is probably an obstruction in the air intake.
>
> Noel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Jhann
> Jhannsson
> Sent: November 23, 2010 2:18 PM
> To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rough running cured with carb heater
>
> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3hann_J=F3hannsson?= <joeing701@simnet.is>
>
> Hello Noel.
>
> Thank you for the advice.
> I think my friend will just fly with the carb heat on until he can get
> a new set of jet needles and needle jets that will give him a richer
> mixture. The plane originally came from the south region of the US,
> and I do believe that the second owner,
> whom my friend bought the plane from, never did get it to run
> properly. He lived in the Pennsylvania area. I know there were other
> problems that were not dealt with by him, but my friend has fixed a
> few item which would have cause a rough and bad running of the engine.
> The carb heat setting cures the rough running as soon as it is turned
> on. No delay or melting of ice. This is mostly during engine run-up on
> the ground.
> If anyone knows of a way to eliminate the heat box and install the K&N
> filters directly to the carbs on a Kitfox 3, please keep me informed.
> My set-up on the Zenith 701 has never cause carb ice, at least never
> that I have notice.
>
> Best regards,
> Johann G.
> Iceland.
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Rough running cured with carb heater |
Hello Rick.
Thanks for the advice. Yes, he would never fly the plane if it was
dangerous. The problem with crating the engine and sending it to an
authorized repair station would almost cost him the same as a new
engine. There is no authorized repair station here in Iceland.
It would have to be shipped to Europe (the mainland) or the US for
repair. The shipping cost and other taxing cost is very high plus the
repair cost would not be inexpensive either. We know that the engine
is not the problem, but the setup of the carbs, cables and/or air
intake.
We may just remove the carbs from my plane and try them on his plane
before we do anything else. This way we could eliminate the carbs and
safe us a lot of work. A lot less expensive than to remove the whole
engine of the plane and ship it.
The isolation here is our biggest problem in the ultralight and
aviation hobby in Iceland. Everything is taxed with 25% sales tax and
our currency is very low value compared to the $.
I will keep you posted of our progress.
Thank you all who have helped with their solutions.
Johann G.
Iceland.
On 23.11.2010, at 18:49, Richard Girard wrote:
> Johann, Please try to convince your friend to ground his airplane
> until the source of this problem is found. That you have a marginal
> fix only means that by flying with it in that configuration you are
> removing that from your possibilities should an inflight emergency
> arise. Aircraft accidents are generally not made of One Big Thing
> going wrong, but rather a series of small things that by themselves
> are manageable, but when combined at the wrong moment bring disaster.
> Attacking the jetting is most probably the wrong thing to do, as
> well. There are literally thousands of these engines flying with
> only minor adjustments to the clip setting of the jet needle, and
> those are almost always to go leaner, not richer.
> If your friend cannot solve this problem, try to convince him to
> remove the engine, crate it up and send it an authorized repair
> station where they can diagnose it properly.
> My 2 cents.
>
> Rick Girard
>
> 2010/11/23 J=F3hann J=F3hannsson <joeing701@simnet.is>
> J=F3hann_J=F3hannsson?= <joeing701@simnet.is>
>
> Hello Noel.
>
> Thank you for the advice.
> I think my friend will just fly with the carb heat on until he can
> get a new set of jet needles and needle jets that will give him a
> richer mixture. The plane originally came from the south region of
> the US, and I do believe that the second owner,
> whom my friend bought the plane from, never did get it to run
> properly. He lived in the Pennsylvania area. I know there were other
> problems that were not dealt with by him, but my friend has fixed a
> few item which would have cause a rough and bad running of the engine.
> The carb heat setting cures the rough running as soon as it is
> turned on. No delay or melting of ice. This is mostly during engine
> run-up on the ground.
> If anyone knows of a way to eliminate the heat box and install the
> K&N filters directly to the carbs on a Kitfox 3, please keep me
> informed.
> My set-up on the Zenith 701 has never cause carb ice, at least never
> that I have notice.
>
> Best regards,
> Johann G.
> Iceland.
>
>
> On 23.11.2010, at 16:01, Noel Loveys wrote:
>
<noelloveys@yahoo.ca
> >
>
> I only mentioned the airbox because history weems to prove the 912
> is much
> more susceptible to cerb icing when the airbox is installed. If the
> two
> individual filters ate installed then the problem with carb icing
> doesn't
> seem to occur for some reason. Certainly if you notice the engine
> running
> rough and pulling the carb heat clears it in about five minutes ( it
> isn't
> an immediate clearing ) then you have experienced carb ice.
>
> The only thing wrong with it is you have to depend upon another
> piece of
> equipment to keep your engine running but guys have been doing that
> with
> carb heat since WW 1.
>
> The only trick to using carb heat is to pull it on as soon as you
> notice a
> roughness in the engine and then give it time to work. Yes Carb
> heat does
> use a non-filtered air supply but the filtration of that air supply
> is only
> a screen. Screens have been closed off in the past with impact
> ice. So if
> you see impact ice expect a problem there. More often than not
> impact ice
> occurs when encountering freezing rain. In that case you climb as
> fast as
> you can. Freezing rain occurs when you have a temperature inversion
> and
> climbing will bring you into warmer air... Mind, you may not have a
> lot of
> time to make the decision to climb so the best thing to do is avoid
> freezing rain at all times. I have already lost a friend to freezing
> rain.... He was flying a Grumman Widgeon...Full IFR.
>
> A few years ago a young local cadet was taking her father for his
> first ride
> in a small plane when she ran into engine trouble. She pulled the
> carb
> heat...nothing, so she set up a forced approach on the main drag of
> a small
> town which she expertly manoeuvred missing several power lines
> crossing the
> road. Once on the ground the engine started and ran perfectly. If
> she had
> left the carb heat on and the engine running it would have cleared
> itself.
> The plane still had to be disassembled to be returned to the airport.
>
> Noel
>
>
> ==========
> m" target="_blank">www.aeroelectric.com
> ooks.com" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
> et="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com
> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> le, List Admin.
> ==========
> -List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
> ==========
> http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
>
>
> --
> Zulu Delta
> Kolb Mk IIIC
> 582 Gray head
> 4.00 C gearbox
> 3 blade WD
> Thanks, Homer GBYM
>
> It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to
> be unable to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
> - G.K. Chesterton
>
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Rough running cured with carb heater |
Hi Johann,
I don't think it has anything to do with the warm air, but just more air in general.
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Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=320693#320693
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