Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 12:19 AM - What Are You Thankful For...? (Matt Dralle)
1. 05:58 AM - Re: Rough running cured with carb heater (Catz631@aol.com)
2. 06:53 AM - Re: Rough running cured with carb heater (Dave Austin)
3. 07:57 AM - Re: Rough running cured with carb heater (Thom Riddle)
4. 08:05 AM - Re: Rough running cured with carb heater (Robert Taylor)
5. 08:29 AM - Re: Rough running cured with carb heater (Thom Riddle)
6. 08:29 AM - Re: Rough running cured with carb heater (lucien)
7. 08:39 AM - Re: Rough running cured with carb heater (Jim_and_Lucy Chuk)
8. 08:48 AM - Is burping a Rotax 912 necessary (ronlee)
9. 09:43 AM - Re: Re: Rough running cured with carb heater (Robert Taylor)
10. 10:12 AM - Re: Is burping a Rotax 912 necessary (lucien)
11. 10:43 AM - Re: Re: Is burping a Rotax 912 necessary (Hugh McKay)
12. 11:30 AM - Re: Is burping a Rotax 912 necessary (Roger Lee)
13. 11:39 AM - Re: Rough running cured with carb heater (Roger Lee)
14. 11:53 AM - Re: Re: Is burping a Rotax 912 necessary (Hugh McKay)
15. 11:54 AM - Re: Rough running cured with carb heater (Thom Riddle)
16. 12:33 PM - Re: Is burping a Rotax 912 necessary (Roger Lee)
17. 07:14 PM - Re: Re: Is burping a Rotax 912 necessary (Noel Loveys)
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| Subject: | What Are You Thankful For...? |
Dear Listers,
Here in the United States, Thursday is our National day of Thanksgiving. Many
of us will be traveling to be with our families and friends to share in generous
feasts of plenty and giving thanks for the many blessings that have been bestowed
upon us.
Many Listers have expressed over the last couple of weeks how thankful they are
for the Email Lists and Forums here on the Matronics servers and for all of the
assistance and comradery they have experienced being a part of the Lists.
One of my favorite comments is when someone writes to me and says something like,
"Its the first thing I do in the morning while I'm having my morning coffee!".
That's a wonderful tribute to the purpose and function of these Lists.
Its always great to hear I'm not the only one that jumps out of bed each morning
to check my List email!!
Won't you take a minute today and show your appreciation for these Lists and for
their continued operation and upgrade?
The List Contribution Site is:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Or, drop a personal check in the mail to:
Matt Dralle / Matronics
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore CA 94550
USA
Thank you in advance for your kind consideration,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Rough running cured with carb heater |
> ...Applying carb heat in most aircraft leans the mixture ...
I regret to inform you that you are mistaken. The warmer less dense air
from applying
carb heat, combined with the same amount of fuel, results in a richer
mixture,
not leaner. This is why as you climb higher into less dense air you must
lean the mixture to maintain proper combustion <
I stand corrected Thom, you are right. With carb heat on you must lean the
mixture to have the correct ratio with carb heat on. A little dyslexia
there. Thanks! (getting old sucks)
Dick Maddux
Milton,Fl
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| Subject: | Re: Rough running cured with carb heater |
Dick, we are talking of a Rotax with Bing carbs. are we not? The Bing
automatically reduces the amount of fuel as the air thins because the
thinner air cannot lift the needle assembly as high against the spring
tension. So it maintains the correct fuel/air ratio at any altitude or
hot-moist/cold-dry combination.
Dave Austin
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Rough running cured with carb heater |
...The Bing automatically reduces the amount of fuel as the air thins...
This is true but not entirely so. The CV carb adjusts the mixture somewhat but
not does not do a perfect job of it with increasing density altitude. In every
airplane I've flown that had engines with Bing CV carbs, as you gain altitude
the EGTs start coming down slowly. Not as if it did not have the altitude adjusting
function but not as well as once can do with a manual mixture control,
either. However, the Bing CVs do a good enough job to not allow the engine to
be way over rich at any density altitude up to 10k or so that a manual mixture
control is not essential.
Bottom line is that the 912 engine does run gradually a bit richer as density altitude
increases, whether it is from warming the air or climbing higher.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321013#321013
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| Subject: | Re: Rough running cured with carb heater |
What? Now this I don't understand. Please explain, Dave. I think
you're way off here. The air does not lift the needle assembly. The
throttle cable does this.
Bob Taylor
TigerCub N657RT
From: Dave Austin
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rough running cured with carb heater
Dick, we are talking of a Rotax with Bing carbs. are we not? The Bing
automatically reduces the amount of fuel as the air thins because the
thinner air cannot lift the needle assembly as high against the spring
tension. So it maintains the correct fuel/air ratio at any altitude or
hot-moist/cold-dry combination.
Dave Austin
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Rough running cured with carb heater |
Bob,
On the Bing 54 carbs (Rotax two-stroke engines) the throttle cable is connected
to the piston holding the jet needle and thus does directly lift the needle.
On the Bing 64 (Rotax 912 series) and Bing 94 (Jabiru) the throttle is connected
directly to the butterfly valve only. The piston and attached needle are indeed
lifted by the combination of differential air pressure on the diaphragm and
the spring below the diaphragm.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321020#321020
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| Subject: | Re: Rough running cured with carb heater |
Thom Riddle wrote:
> ...The Bing automatically reduces the amount of fuel as the air thins...
>
> This is true but not entirely so. The CV carb adjusts the mixture somewhat but
not does not do a perfect job of it with increasing density altitude. In every
airplane I've flown that had engines with Bing CV carbs, as you gain altitude
the EGTs start coming down slowly. Not as if it did not have the altitude adjusting
function but not as well as once can do with a manual mixture control,
either. However, the Bing CVs do a good enough job to not allow the engine to
be way over rich at any density altitude up to 10k or so that a manual mixture
control is not essential.
>
> Bottom line is that the 912 engine does run gradually a bit richer as density
altitude increases, whether it is from warming the air or climbing higher.
I can definitely confirm this. My airport is at 6300' MSL and my typical kicking
around the patch altitudes range from 8500 to 10,000 MSL. The max I can get
on the EGT's are about 1300-1350F and usually only on one bank of cyls; the other
is usually around 1200F. The exhaust baffle stays nice and white with lots
of high power operation so I'm not too worried about it at full power.
But it's definitely rich at lower throttle settings especially between 2500 and
4000 rpm. I have to run my idle jets out about 3/4 turn instead of the Rotax
spec of 1.5.
Also, the carb vent lines _must_ be at the same atmospheric pressure as the venturies
as spelled out in the installation manual up here, or the carbs really
do go too rich.....
I havn't tried dropping the jet needle, but that might help some too (I just don't
want to take those damn things apart anymore ;)).
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321019#321019
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| Subject: | Rough running cured with carb heater |
Bob=2C I'm not Dave=2C but I'll give it a shot. In a way=2C you both are
right... that is if you are reffering to a type 54 Bing carb as is used on
a Rotax 2 stroke engine. I believe Dave was reffering to a type 64 Bing a
s is used on a 912 or 914 4 stroke Rotax engine. In that case=2C he is co
rrect=2C the slide/needle assembly is not lifed by the throttel cable but b
y vacumm above it. Look up the Bing website and have a look at the type 64
carbs and you will see how they work. Take care=2C Jim Chuk
From: Flydad57@neo.rr.com
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rough running cured with carb heater
What? Now this I don't understand. Please explain=2C Dave. I think you'r
e way off here. The air does not lift the needle assembly. The throttle c
able does this.
Bob Taylor
TigerCub N657RT
From: Dave Austin
Sent: Thursday=2C November 25=2C 2010 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rough running cured with carb heater
Dick=2C we are talking of a Rotax with Bing carbs. are we not? The Bing a
utomatically reduces the amount of fuel as the air thins because the thinne
r air cannot lift the needle assembly as high against the spring tension.
So it maintains the correct fuel/air ratio at any altitude or hot-moist/col
d-dry combination.
Dave Austin
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chr
ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List">http://www.matr
onics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
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| Subject: | Is burping a Rotax 912 necessary |
There is lots of talk about burping a 912 to get an accurate oil level check. My
question is, If the oil level is only down about 1/4 quart before burping is
it really necessary to burp? What can it hurt by just starting the engine and
letting the normal crankcase pressure evacuate it Now I understand if a great
deal of oil has drained into the crankcase it should be burped to prevent, lets
say a hydraulic lock or just lots of oil being slung around the crankcase.
--------
Ron Lee
Tucson, Arizona
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321023#321023
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| Subject: | Re: Rough running cured with carb heater |
Thank you, Thom! I hadn't realized that the subject was the 4-stroke
Rotax's with the Bing CV-type carb. I was thinking 2-strokes with the
Bing 54. Sorry group!
Bob Taylor
TigerCub N657RT
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Thom Riddle" <riddletr@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 11:26 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rough running cured with carb heater
> <riddletr@gmail.com>
>
> Bob,
>
> On the Bing 54 carbs (Rotax two-stroke engines) the throttle cable is
> connected to the piston holding the jet needle and thus does directly lift
> the needle.
>
> On the Bing 64 (Rotax 912 series) and Bing 94 (Jabiru) the throttle is
> connected directly to the butterfly valve only. The piston and attached
> needle are indeed lifted by the combination of differential air pressure
> on the diaphragm and the spring below the diaphragm.
>
> --------
> Thom Riddle
> Buffalo, NY (9G0)
> Kolb Slingshot SS-021
> Jabiru 2200A #1574
> Tennessee Prop 64x32
>
>
> ?oEveryone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.?
> Daniel Patrick Moynihan
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321020#321020
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Is burping a Rotax 912 necessary |
ronlee wrote:
> There is lots of talk about burping a 912 to get an accurate oil level check.
My question is, If the oil level is only down about 1/4 quart before burping
is it really necessary to burp? What can it hurt by just starting the engine and
letting the normal crankcase pressure evacuate it Now I understand if a great
deal of oil has drained into the crankcase it should be burped to prevent,
lets say a hydraulic lock or just lots of oil being slung around the crankcase.
It's not necessary, no, but it's a good check to make before starting anyway. I.e.
it shows the oil return system is actually working and checks for hydraulic
lock. Either one of these when trying to start up could be pretty expensive....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321030#321030
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| Subject: | Re: Is burping a Rotax 912 necessary |
Lucien,
I understand your statement "shows the oil return system is working
properly", but what do you mean by "hydraulic lock", and how would you know
from this procedure if you had one?
Hugh McKay
Rotax 912 UL
Allegro 2000
-----Original Message-----
From: lucien
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 1:09 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Is burping a Rotax 912 necessary
ronlee wrote:
> There is lots of talk about burping a 912 to get an accurate oil level
> check. My question is, If the oil level is only down about 1/4 quart
> before burping is it really necessary to burp? What can it hurt by just
> starting the engine and letting the normal crankcase pressure evacuate it
> Now I understand if a great deal of oil has drained into the crankcase it
> should be burped to prevent, lets say a hydraulic lock or just lots of oil
> being slung around the crankcase.
It's not necessary, no, but it's a good check to make before starting
anyway. I.e. it shows the oil return system is actually working and checks
for hydraulic lock. Either one of these when trying to start up could be
pretty expensive....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321030#321030
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| Subject: | Re: Is burping a Rotax 912 necessary |
Hi Hugh,
If you had a hydraulic lock the prop will not turn over on the problem cylinder.
In some cases enough oil or fuel can leak into a cylinder and cause a hydraulic
lock which if you try to start the engine could cause a problem since the oil
or fuel won't compress. This is usually people that don't do regular prescribed
maint. so this issue comes on and the first they know of it is when they try
to start their engine. It is more apt to be people that have a high wing and
don't shut off fuel. Some times it can be from the way people have installed
their engine and related components like the oil tank reservoir. It is people
that have damage to rings or a bad float needle valve in the carb, ect.... It
really amounts to fuel or oil that has leaked into a cylinder while the plane
was sitting and because you had something wrong internally you didn't know about.
Lucien's point is that if you do take the time to rotate the prop then you should
find this hydraulic lock by hand and not do damage by just turning the key.
If you had a true hydraulic lock and just turned the key it could bend internal
parts.
This situation isn't that prevalent and I think you saw it more often years ago,
but it still can happen. Here is a good place to say, "Do the 100 hr. inspections
that are in the "Line Maint" manual and save money on expensive fixes or
en flight problems.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321034#321034
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Rough running cured with carb heater |
Rotax 2 strokes are more affected with the warm v.s. cold air than the 912 with
the Bing 64's, but they are all affected to some degree. The Bing 64's do compensate,
but they can only do this just so far.
This is similar to the compensation cross over tube for the carbs. They can help
make things between the carbs more equal, but it can only do so much and that
is why the carbs should be balanced every 100 hrs. during the 100 hr. inspection.
They will always be off.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321035#321035
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| Subject: | Re: Is burping a Rotax 912 necessary |
Thanks Roger. In the past I have turned the prop to get the "gurgle", but
after questioning why, the only answer I got was to check the oil level in
the oil tank. I now understand what you mean by "hydraulic lock". Even
though I have a high wing plane with wing tanks (Allegro 2000), no fuel can
drain from the wing tanks, or the main tank by gravity. Here's why. The wing
tanks drain by gravity only to the main fuel tank that is located under the
seat area of the plane. From there the fuel is pumped up to the engine. The
oil tank is set such that oil cannot drain to the cylinders. However, just
in case, I will return to "burping" the engine to check for Hydraulic lock.
Too many $ tied up in the engine not to do so.
Hugh
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Lee
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 2:28 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Is burping a Rotax 912 necessary
Hi Hugh,
If you had a hydraulic lock the prop will not turn over on the problem
cylinder.
In some cases enough oil or fuel can leak into a cylinder and cause a
hydraulic lock which if you try to start the engine could cause a problem
since the oil or fuel won't compress. This is usually people that don't do
regular prescribed maint. so this issue comes on and the first they know of
it is when they try to start their engine. It is more apt to be people that
have a high wing and don't shut off fuel. Some times it can be from the way
people have installed their engine and related components like the oil tank
reservoir. It is people that have damage to rings or a bad float needle
valve in the carb, ect.... It really amounts to fuel or oil that has leaked
into a cylinder while the plane was sitting and because you had something
wrong internally you didn't know about.
Lucien's point is that if you do take the time to rotate the prop then you
should find this hydraulic lock by hand and not do damage by just turning
the key. If you had a true hydraulic lock and just turned the key it could
bend internal parts.
This situation isn't that prevalent and I think you saw it more often years
ago, but it still can happen. Here is a good place to say, "Do the 100 hr.
inspections that are in the "Line Maint" manual and save money on expensive
fixes or en flight problems.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321034#321034
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| Subject: | Re: Rough running cured with carb heater |
Roger,
ALWAYS is a big word. I have seen 912 carbs stay synched for over 200 hours, as
long as the owner does not try to fix what is not broken. [Rolling Eyes]
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321039#321039
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Is burping a Rotax 912 necessary |
Hi Hugh,
The lock up is fairly rare so I wouldn't loose any sleep. If were more prevalent
we would be reading a lot more about it.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321041#321041
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Is burping a Rotax 912 necessary |
If oil somehow is able to leak into a cylinder irt will act like a block and
prevent the crank form turning. If you try to start the engine and it fires
on another cylinder it is possible to blow the head off the locked cylinder.
Big engines especially radials where there are cylinders at six O'clock are
especially prone to hydraulic lock. For that reason the operating
instructions usually include watching for so many blades to turn past the
cockpit before turning on the ignitions. If you ever saw a radial start up
the first thing noticeable is the fact they always start with a great
production of smoke from burning oil.
Hydraulic lock may not be as much of an issue with the boxer style 9xx
engines but I guess it is possible for oil to leak into the cylinders
especially if the plane is not parked level or if the oil reservoir is
mounted higher than the cylinders. Burping seems to be a simple quick way
to kill two birds with one stone... first you know you have enough oil and
second, you know that you won't be instantly destroying your engine when you
start it.
Reminds me of what my instructor on piston engines told me... the worst
thing you do to a piston engine in normal service is start it!
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hugh
McKay
Sent: November 25, 2010 3:11 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Is burping a Rotax 912 necessary
<hgmckay@bellsouth.net>
Lucien,
I understand your statement "shows the oil return system is working
properly", but what do you mean by "hydraulic lock", and how would you know
from this procedure if you had one?
Hugh McKay
Rotax 912 UL
Allegro 2000
-----Original Message-----
From: lucien
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 1:09 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Is burping a Rotax 912 necessary
ronlee wrote:
> There is lots of talk about burping a 912 to get an accurate oil level
> check. My question is, If the oil level is only down about 1/4 quart
> before burping is it really necessary to burp? What can it hurt by just
> starting the engine and letting the normal crankcase pressure evacuate it
> Now I understand if a great deal of oil has drained into the crankcase it
> should be burped to prevent, lets say a hydraulic lock or just lots of oil
> being slung around the crankcase.
It's not necessary, no, but it's a good check to make before starting
anyway. I.e. it shows the oil return system is actually working and checks
for hydraulic lock. Either one of these when trying to start up could be
pretty expensive....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=321030#321030
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