Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:53 AM - Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and pre-ignition (Matt Tucciarone)
2. 06:41 AM - Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and pre-ignition (Roger Lee)
3. 07:36 AM - Oil Info, myths? (Richard Girard)
4. 08:06 AM - Re: Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and pre-ignition (Noel Loveys)
5. 09:28 AM - Re: Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and pre-ignition (Matt Tucciarone)
6. 12:40 PM - Icing: 912S versus 912 (NEEL Jean Philippe)
7. 03:36 PM - Re: Icing: 912S versus 912 (Rob Housman)
8. 04:58 PM - Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and pre-ignition (Roger Lee)
9. 08:27 PM - Re: Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and pre-ignition (Noel Loveys)
10. 08:57 PM - Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and pre-ignition (Roger Lee)
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and pre-ignition |
?Thanks for sending the link.
I have had the conversation with a friend, that flies an Air Cam, about
continuous cruse RPM. He has his engines (912s) at 4500. This video says to
keep it above 5200. I cruse at 5300-5500.
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Lee
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 6:10 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and
pre-ignition
FYI
Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and pre-ignition.
Watch it.
http://rotax-owner.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id 1:detonation&catid=15:training&Itemid=174
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=322879#322879
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and pre-ignition |
912's
If you only have a ground adjustable prop then we try to balance the climb/cruise
setup up and make the engine happy at the same time. The best WOT flat & level
rpm is 5500 WOT. This gives you good climb, good cruise speed and the best
fuel economy for an individual rpm setting. Balance is the key. This is a good
place to be too if you have to fly your plane at WOT because of an emergency
like a broken carb cable on one side then you can do that without any problem
at 5500 WOT. If you have it set over 5550 then you would be limited to a 5 min.
run time. 5500 is Rotax's continuous run rpm. A good cruise rpm (with the max
WOT rpm at 5500) is 5000-5300 depending on the plane and application. I prefer
and Rotax too, 5100-5300 for cruise. If you run on only 100LL then cruise
at 5300 to help keep the lead blown out. At a 5500 WOT rpm then your take off
rpms will be up to 5000 or more. This take off rpm will depend now on what flap
setting and what climb angle you chose that will either load or help unload
the prop. Your planes over all configuration will play a part in this, too. Never
set your engine up to only run (i.e. 5000-5200) WOT rpm. It loads the engine
too much and over time it will cause problems that you won't see until it's
too late. These low rpm settings really overload an engine at take off with rpms
below 5000. Having an engine setup to run 5300 or less rpm WOT throttle is
counter productive. You get worse climb, worse cruise and worse fuel economy.
I have proven this to hundreds of people so there really isn't a valid argument
to set your WOT to low cruise rpms. If you have a special need for a better
climb prop, like living and flying at very high airports, altitudes or maybe
a float fly, ect... then you may need a higher rpm setting to accommodated the
special circumstances, plus you will get better performance while flying at the
high altitudes with a little flatter pitch. Everyones pitch on the prop setting
will be different because we all live and fly at different altitudes, have
differen!
t props
and different fuselage aircraft. I will say that if you truly want to see 5200
on take off as Rotax wants then your WOT flat and level is closer most likely
5700 or more. For me personally this isn't a good balance.
having the prop to get 5500 rpm WOT has another big plus. If you screw up a landing
and need that full throttle save then the prop/engine rpm spin up is quick
and more likely to save your tail. If the rpm was set too low then rpm spin
up is slow and it will result in poor save my tail time.
All bets are off for the lucky few that have an in flight adjustable prop. They
can get the best of all worlds. But even with these guys if they have set the
prop to only turn 5100-5200 WOT during cruise then it's counter productive and
over loads the engine. Just because they have an in flight adjustable prop doesn't
always mean they use it properly.
Cruising in the 4000 rpm range for extended periods is not good for your engine.
It is ok for a short look at something and landing setups, but not for a constant
use. Your engine was specifically designed to run all it's life in the 5000's.
It was never intended to run in the 4000's and is really hard on the engine
over time and has much more vibration.
Be nice to your engine it cost $20K and it is one of the only things keeping you
in the air and safe.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=322924#322924
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| Subject: | Oil Info, myths? |
There are things that stick in the memory. One that stuck in mine, and I
can't remember if it was from Rotax or LSARM classes, was about mixing two
stroke oils. Specifically, mixing API rated two cyle oil (API TC) and NMMA
TCW-3 would cause them to congeal.
Knowing this I stocked up on Pennzoil Air Cooled which is API TC rated so I
wouldn't have to worry about draining and cleaning out my 582's rotary valve
oiling system. I have always advised other 582 owners to know what oil is
used in the rotary valve system, too. Yesterday a customer took delivery of
a new to him airplane at my place and the previous owner had sent along a
couple of pints of Pennzoil Air Cooled (the 582 has oil injection, too).
When I looked at the bottle the first thing I saw was that it is now NMMA
TCW-3 rated. Is this compatible with the older oil or not?
Rick Girard
--
Zulu Delta
Kolb Mk IIIC
582 Gray head
4.00 C gearbox
3 blade WD
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It is not bigotry to be certain we are right; but it is bigotry to be unable
to imagine how we might possibly have gone wrong.
- G.K. Chesterton
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and pre-ignition |
What is the best WOT with the tail tied down? Around what pitch angle is a
good place to start? (80 hp 912 UL)
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Lee
Sent: December 11, 2010 11:09 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and
pre-ignition
912's
If you only have a ground adjustable prop then we try to balance the
climb/cruise setup up and make the engine happy at the same time. The best
WOT flat & level rpm is 5500 WOT. This gives you good climb, good cruise
speed and the best fuel economy for an individual rpm setting. Balance is
the key. This is a good place to be too if you have to fly your plane at WOT
because of an emergency like a broken carb cable on one side then you can do
that without any problem at 5500 WOT. If you have it set over 5550 then you
would be limited to a 5 min. run time. 5500 is Rotax's continuous run rpm. A
good cruise rpm (with the max WOT rpm at 5500) is 5000-5300 depending on the
plane and application. I prefer and Rotax too, 5100-5300 for cruise. If you
run on only 100LL then cruise at 5300 to help keep the lead blown out. At a
5500 WOT rpm then your take off rpms will be up to 5000 or more. This take
off rpm will depend now on what flap setting and what climb angle you chose
that will e!
ither load or help unload the prop. Your planes over all configuration will
play a part in this, too. Never set your engine up to only run (i.e.
5000-5200) WOT rpm. It loads the engine too much and over time it will cause
problems that you won't see until it's too late. These low rpm settings
really overload an engine at take off with rpms below 5000. Having an engine
setup to run 5300 or less rpm WOT throttle is counter productive. You get
worse climb, worse cruise and worse fuel economy. I have proven this to
hundreds of people so there really isn't a valid argument to set your WOT to
low cruise rpms. If you have a special need for a better climb prop, like
living and flying at very high airports, altitudes or maybe a float fly,
ect... then you may need a higher rpm setting to accommodated the special
circumstances, plus you will get better performance while flying at the high
altitudes with a little flatter pitch. Everyones pitch on the prop setting
will be different bec!
ause we all live and fly at different altitudes, have differen!
t props
and different fuselage aircraft. I will say that if you truly want to see
5200 on take off as Rotax wants then your WOT flat and level is closer most
likely 5700 or more. For me personally this isn't a good balance.
having the prop to get 5500 rpm WOT has another big plus. If you screw up a
landing and need that full throttle save then the prop/engine rpm spin up is
quick and more likely to save your tail. If the rpm was set too low then rpm
spin up is slow and it will result in poor save my tail time.
All bets are off for the lucky few that have an in flight adjustable prop.
They can get the best of all worlds. But even with these guys if they have
set the prop to only turn 5100-5200 WOT during cruise then it's counter
productive and over loads the engine. Just because they have an in flight
adjustable prop doesn't always mean they use it properly.
Cruising in the 4000 rpm range for extended periods is not good for your
engine. It is ok for a short look at something and landing setups, but not
for a constant use. Your engine was specifically designed to run all it's
life in the 5000's. It was never intended to run in the 4000's and is really
hard on the engine over time and has much more vibration.
Be nice to your engine it cost $20K and it is one of the only things keeping
you in the air and safe.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=322924#322924
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and pre-ignition |
?The video says stay above 5200. You say 5100 to 5300. Who is correct?
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Lee
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 9:38 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and
pre-ignition
912's
If you only have a ground adjustable prop then we try to balance the
climb/cruise setup up and make the engine happy at the same time. The best
WOT flat & level rpm is 5500 WOT. This gives you good climb, good cruise
speed and the best fuel economy for an individual rpm setting. Balance is
the key. This is a good place to be too if you have to fly your plane at WOT
because of an emergency like a broken carb cable on one side then you can do
that without any problem at 5500 WOT. If you have it set over 5550 then you
would be limited to a 5 min. run time. 5500 is Rotax's continuous run rpm. A
good cruise rpm (with the max WOT rpm at 5500) is 5000-5300 depending on the
plane and application. I prefer and Rotax too, 5100-5300 for cruise. If you
run on only 100LL then cruise at 5300 to help keep the lead blown out. At a
5500 WOT rpm then your take off rpms will be up to 5000 or more. This take
off rpm will depend now on what flap setting and what climb angle you chose
that will e!
ither load or help unload the prop. Your planes over all configuration will
play a part in this, too. Never set your engine up to only run (i.e.
5000-5200) WOT rpm. It loads the engine too much and over time it will cause
problems that you won't see until it's too late. These low rpm settings
really overload an engine at take off with rpms below 5000. Having an engine
setup to run 5300 or less rpm WOT throttle is counter productive. You get
worse climb, worse cruise and worse fuel economy. I have proven this to
hundreds of people so there really isn't a valid argument to set your WOT to
low cruise rpms. If you have a special need for a better climb prop, like
living and flying at very high airports, altitudes or maybe a float fly,
ect... then you may need a higher rpm setting to accommodated the special
circumstances, plus you will get better performance while flying at the high
altitudes with a little flatter pitch. Everyones pitch on the prop setting
will be different bec!
ause we all live and fly at different altitudes, have differen!
t props
and different fuselage aircraft. I will say that if you truly want to see
5200 on take off as Rotax wants then your WOT flat and level is closer most
likely 5700 or more. For me personally this isn't a good balance.
having the prop to get 5500 rpm WOT has another big plus. If you screw up a
landing and need that full throttle save then the prop/engine rpm spin up is
quick and more likely to save your tail. If the rpm was set too low then rpm
spin up is slow and it will result in poor save my tail time.
All bets are off for the lucky few that have an in flight adjustable prop.
They can get the best of all worlds. But even with these guys if they have
set the prop to only turn 5100-5200 WOT during cruise then it's counter
productive and over loads the engine. Just because they have an in flight
adjustable prop doesn't always mean they use it properly.
Cruising in the 4000 rpm range for extended periods is not good for your
engine. It is ok for a short look at something and landing setups, but not
for a constant use. Your engine was specifically designed to run all it's
life in the 5000's. It was never intended to run in the 4000's and is really
hard on the engine over time and has much more vibration.
Be nice to your engine it cost $20K and it is one of the only things keeping
you in the air and safe.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=322924#322924
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| Subject: | Icing: 912S versus 912 |
Hi all,=0AI flown my europa with a 912 80hp during 1200h/11years.It's a mar
k one but with =0AXS engine mounting and cowlings.Majority of flights took
place here in the =0AFrench Alps as well in -summer as in winter. I never
had icing-issue although I =0Ahad no carb preheater-.The only caution
I had ,when descending-,was to keep =0A4500/4800 rpm .-Never in idle po
sition.=0AIn the beggining of that year I change-my-912-for a new 912
S 100hp. That new =0Aengine has now about 125h. Yesterday I had for the fir
st time a rough running =0Aduring few seconds.Outer Air Temp was negative a
t every level and the issue =0Aoccurs at the end of a descent 4500/4800rpm
from 8000ft to 1500ft. There was =0Aabout- 8=B0C- of difference at grou
nd level betwen OAT and dew point.=0ASeveral time I read on Rotax and Europ
a web site discussions about icing issues =0Aand I-kept in mind that 912S
should be more sensitive to icing than 912.=0A=0AAs-I know:=0A* -Ca
rbs are the same ,except needle diam (2.72 versus 2.70 on S)-and ,may be,
=0Amain fuel jet-and diffuser (in accordance with needle)-.Does those
difference =0Acould explain more-sensitivity to icing?=0A* Compression
ratio and bore-are increased on S--but stroke is the same-. In my
=0Aopinion these difference have not thing to do with icing issue.=0A-So
here is my question-:-Could some body explain why a 912S should be more
=0Aexposed to icing than a 912?=0A=0AJean-Philippe Neel=0AF-PSLH Kit N=B02
73=0AGrenoble France-----=0A=0A=0A
Message 7
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| Subject: | Icing: 912S versus 912 |
The cooling (isentropic throttling) that makes carb icing happen is a
function of the amount of fuel vaporized so with all other things being
equal (same atmospheric conditions, engine manifold, carbs, RPM, etc.)
you
can expect the somewhat greater fuel flow (more power requires more
fuel) to
cause more cooling and hence a greater propensity to make ice.
Obviously
the 912 and 912S are =93different=94 engines but those differences are
internal
and downstream from the carbs. The 914 is less prone to carb ice
because
the air compressed by the turbo is warmer than the intake air.
Thermodynamics rules!
Best regards,
Rob Housman
Irvine, California
Europa XS
S/N A070
Rotax 914
Airframe complete
Avionics soon
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of NEEL
Jean
Philippe
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 12:35 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Icing: 912S versus 912
Hi all,
I flown my europa with a 912 80hp during 1200h/11years.It's a mark one
but
with XS engine mounting and cowlings.Majority of flights took place here
in
the French Alps as well in summer as in winter. I never had icing issue
although I had no carb preheater .The only caution I had ,when
descending
,was to keep 4500/4800 rpm . Never in idle position.
In the beggining of that year I change my 912 for a new 912S 100hp. That
new
engine has now about 125h. Yesterday I had for the first time a rough
running during few seconds.Outer Air Temp was negative at every level
and
the issue occurs at the end of a descent 4500/4800rpm from 8000ft to
1500ft.
There was about 8=B0C of difference at ground level betwen OAT and dew
point.
Several time I read on Rotax and Europa web site discussions about icing
issues and I kept in mind that 912S should be more sensitive to icing
than
912.
As I know:
* Carbs are the same ,except needle diam (2.72 versus 2.70 on S) and
,may be, main fuel jet and diffuser (in accordance with needle) .Does
those
difference could explain more sensitivity to icing?
* Compression ratio and bore are increased on S but stroke is the
same . In my opinion these difference have not thing to do with icing
issue.
So here is my question : Could some body explain why a 912S should be
more
exposed to icing than a 912?
Jean-Philippe Neel
F-PSLH Kit N=B0273
Grenoble France
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and pre-ignition |
Actually both are correct. Rotax publishes numbers like that, but there are way
to many applications in the world for everyone to be spot on, so why try to
be at least close. Then the teachings in school aren't right along with the book
either. So we try to balance a little. Plus we all have different setups. If
you are at least 5000+ on take off and at 5500+ WOT you can sleep well at night.
Hi Noel,
Setting the rpm on the ground static is just to get close. Pitch angle does no
good unless you are talking about two identical planes and props. The only way
to really tell after that course static adjustment is to get into the air and
get some real flight numbers. Shoot for around 5200 static on the ground and
that will get you close enough for a flight test to dial it in where it really
needs to be.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=322996#322996
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and pre-ignition |
What would you recommend to be a preliminary AOA for the prop? Warp, nickel
edge, square tip, 72" on a Kitfox II?
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Lee
Sent: December 11, 2010 9:26 PM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and
pre-ignition
Actually both are correct. Rotax publishes numbers like that, but there are
way to many applications in the world for everyone to be spot on, so why
try to be at least close. Then the teachings in school aren't right along
with the book either. So we try to balance a little. Plus we all have
different setups. If you are at least 5000+ on take off and at 5500+ WOT you
can sleep well at night.
Hi Noel,
Setting the rpm on the ground static is just to get close. Pitch angle does
no good unless you are talking about two identical planes and props. The
only way to really tell after that course static adjustment is to get into
the air and get some real flight numbers. Shoot for around 5200 static on
the ground and that will get you close enough for a flight test to dial it
in where it really needs to be.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=322996#322996
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax E-Learning video on detonation and pre-ignition |
Hi Noel,
If you are flying with floats you may want a little flatter pitch for a little
better climb off the water with more weight. I have no recommendation for the
pitch, but only to set the static at 5200-5300 and go out and give it a try.
I know you have been flying your plane, so what is your WOT setting right now and
how does it perform?
Just a side note*
That particular prop from Warp isn't recommended by Rotax because of it's inertia
weight.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=323017#323017
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