Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:10 AM - Re: 914 partial power failure (b d)
2. 12:42 AM - Re: 914 partial power failure (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
3. 02:24 AM - Re: 914 partial power failure (john firth)
4. 02:53 AM - Re: 914 partial power failure (Bob Harrison)
5. 03:22 AM - Re: Re: 914 partial power failure (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
6. 05:44 AM - Re: rumor I heard (lucien)
7. 09:47 AM - Re: 914 partial power failure (john firth)
8. 12:43 PM - Re: Re: 914 partial power failure (b d)
9. 03:05 PM - Re: Re: 914 partial power failure (john firth)
10. 03:42 PM - Re: Re: 914 partial power failure (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
11. 04:04 PM - Re: Re: 914 partial power failure (john firth)
12. 04:51 PM - Re: Re: rumor I heard (Noel Loveys)
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| Subject: | Re: 914 partial power failure |
It may very well be in ignition this time, wires mags breaking down,
moisture in mags, and even mechanical issues valves floating, sticking etc .
. yes I know you had fuel issues too and you looked at the plugs but you may
have multiple intermittent problems on multiple systems that are more
difficult to isolate. Don't get hungup on any one idea. Keep an open mind
and try to force a failure and then isolate that failure. Fix it and then
see if there is another problem . . could be. As I said you may have
multiple things failing under temp and pressure and then they heal up when
the stress is relieved. Make sense? The difficult porblems are also the fun
ones.
Also don't forget to check carb heat . . . carb icing can cause you to pull
your hair out plus it can be damned dangerous. Yeh I know it ain't sposed to
happen on take off . . . shit happens though.
Do you have the same mag drop on both mags or more on just one mag? Mag
drops don't indicate a fuel problem but more of Ignition and or mechanical.
Roughness can be fuel, ignition, air or mechanical or worse case . . all of
the above. Try to isolate with mag check first as much as possible then use
compression test and temperature stress test. By doing these tests, you may
see a pattern or a common cylinder that is losing power (loss of power is
indicated by a lower temperature hence the CHT temp test or EGT test or
both) If you have quad temp like I do, you can analyze it from the cockpit
in flight or on the ground . . . what's four temps among friends, right?
Don't let multiple intermittent problems confuse you like it does a lot of
people. Just because you had a fuel issue doesn't mean you don't still have
problems in other systems. Have you had a lot of weather? This is what
separates the men from the boys in trouble shooting. You will need to make
the culpret(s) break down if possible by putting the engine under stress
(load) and temperature. Better on the ground than in the air. You may need
to do a compression test after the engine is warmed. Do you know how to do
that? Do a comp test early on before getting too deep. A comp test will
show valve and ring problems usually unless valves are floating, it won't
show that.
Is malfunction on same cyls all the time? Run engine up with cowling off
under load and high RPM to achieve maximum roughness and then monitor temps
of each cylinder as follows. Let engine heat up and then check differential
cyl temperature or if you have four egt's record them, is it aircooled? If
yes use a temp wand to immediately check temp on all four cyls after shut
down or have someone check cyl temps while running under load . . . caution
about spinning prop. I don't know if a 914 is aircooled or watercooled.
Watercooled is more difficult to trouble shoot by temp. Use temp wand or
photopyrometer on individual exhaust pipes if water cooled. You may be able
to detect a difference in temp right on the sparkplug. Compare apples to
apples, check all top and compare or all bottom and compare.
Good luck and let me know . . .
Bruce
On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 9:48 PM, john firth <firth942@btinternet.com> wrote:
> firth942@btinternet.com>
>
> Hello all, I have a 914 fitted to a mono wheel Europa. a couple of weeks
> ago I suffered a partial power failure on take off and had to land
> immediately. After changing the fuel filters and cleaning out the carbs she
> ran fine for three hours and five take offs and then failed again and now
> has symptom's on ground runs which are:-
> starts well and runs smooth till 2800ish rpm
> can be made to go to 5000plus but runs rough and mag drops 600
> I have checked the following:-
> Replaced the whole fuel system except pumps, selector valve and tank
> fittings but removed and checked them all.
> Done Rotax fuel flow check at plus 0.5 bar simulated air box pressure
> giving 10psi fuel pressure and delivering 70litres/hour on each pump.
> Checked airbox pressure v fuel pressure when engine running 4psi
> Checked float bowls for dirt, blown out jets, checked needle valves and
> float level- all appear ok.
> Checked slide and diaphragm for leaks and smooth operation.
> Checked all small air pipes for leaks and blockage and carb mounting
> rubbers for splits.
> Checked plugs- all look OK with light brown deposits slightly white but am
> running Avgas at the moment. (she runs the same on Mogas) and swopped the
> top two plugs with each other at both sides.
> When run to 5000rpm, airbox pressure rises to 1.1b and fuel increases to
> 1,4b.
> TCU lights normal on power up and servo can be heard operating.I will check
> waste gate arm moving tomorrow.
> I could use some ideas from the wealth of experience out there.
> Regards, john.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329052#329052
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: 914 partial power failure |
John=0ADo you have a radiation pyrometer? I have one but maybe a bit far aw
ay in =0ADerbyshire. Quick way to check EGT/CHT=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A____
____________________________=0AFrom: john firth <firth942@btinternet.com>
=0ATo: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Monday, 31 January, 2011 5:4
8:56=0ASubject: RotaxEngines-List: 914 partial power failure=0A=0A--> Rotax
Engines-List message posted by: "john firth" <firth942@btinternet.com>=0A
=0AHello all, I have a 914 fitted to a mono wheel Europa. a couple of weeks
ago I =0Asuffered a partial power failure on take off and had to land imme
diately. After =0Achanging the fuel filters and cleaning out the carbs she
ran fine for three =0Ahours and five take offs and then failed again and no
w has symptom's on ground =0Aruns which are:-=0Astarts well and runs smooth
till 2800ish rpm=0Acan be made to go to 5000plus but runs rough and mag dr
ops 600=0AI have checked the following:-=0AReplaced the whole fuel system e
xcept pumps, selector valve and tank fittings =0Abut removed and checked th
em all.=0ADone Rotax fuel flow check at plus 0.5 bar simulated air box pres
sure giving =0A10psi fuel pressure and delivering 70litres/hour on each pum
p.=0AChecked airbox pressure v fuel pressure when engine running 4psi=0AChe
cked float bowls for dirt, blown out jets, checked needle valves and float
=0Alevel- all appear ok.=0AChecked slide and diaphragm for leaks and smooth
operation.=0AChecked all small air pipes for leaks and blockage and carb m
ounting rubbers for =0Asplits.=0AChecked plugs- all look OK with light brow
n deposits slightly white but am =0Arunning Avgas at the moment. (she runs
the same on Mogas) and swopped the top =0Atwo plugs with each other at both
sides.=0AWhen run to 5000rpm, airbox pressure rises to 1.1b and fuel incre
ases to 1,4b.=0ATCU lights normal on power up and servo can be heard operat
ing.I will check =0Awaste gate arm moving tomorrow.=0AI could use some idea
s from the wealth of experience out there.=0ARegards, john.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AR
ead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?
=======
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| Subject: | Re: 914 partial power failure |
Thanks Bruce, I did compression check and got just one cylinder down by 5psi, others
at 130psi engine was warm.
looks like i need some temp measuring devices but panel on my plane is very full.
Cheers, john.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329060#329060
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| Subject: | 914 partial power failure |
Hi! John
Have you checked that :-
a) The choke cable is allowing both levers to return to disused
position?
b) The ignition grounding hasn=99t any glitches anywhere
(intermittent short out through the odd single strand of wire)
c) Did you check the electric pump thimble filters for crud.(be very
carefull when getting them out to inspect and returning them after since
it is impossible to get replacements without buying a new pump!)
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
GRAHAM SINGLETON
Sent: 31 January 2011 08:39
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: 914 partial power failure
John
Do you have a radiation pyrometer? I have one but maybe a bit far away
in Derbyshire. Quick way to check EGT/CHT
Graham
_____
From: john firth <firth942@btinternet.com>
Sent: Monday, 31 January, 2011 5:48:56
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: 914 partial power failure
<firth942@btinternet.com>
Hello all, I have a 914 fitted to a mono wheel Europa. a couple of weeks
ago I suffered a partial power failure on take off and had to land
immediately. After changing the fuel filters and cleaning out the carbs
she ran fine for three hours and five take offs and then failed again
and now has symptom's on ground runs which are:-
starts well and runs smooth till 2800ish rpm
can be made to go to 5000plus but runs rough and mag drops 600
I have checked the following:-
Replaced the whole fuel system except pumps, selector valve and tank
fittings but removed and checked them all.
Done Rotax fuel flow check at plus 0.5 bar simulated air box pressure
giving 10psi fuel pressure and delivering 70litres/hour on each pump.
Checked airbox pressure v fuel pressure when engine running 4psi
Checked float bowls for dirt, blown out jets, checked needle valves and
float level- all appear ok.
Checked slide and diaphragm for leaks and smooth operation.
Checked all small air pipes for leaks and blockage and carb mounting
rubbers for splits.
Checked plugs- all look OK with light brown deposits slightly white but
am running Avgas at the moment. (she runs the same on Mogas) and swopped
the top two plugs with each other at both sides.
When run to 5000rpm, airbox pressure rises to 1.1b and fuel increases to
1,4b.
TCU lights normal on power up and servo can be heard operating.I will
check waste gate arm moving tomorrow.
I could use some ideas from the wealth of experience out there.
Regards, john.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329052#329======
==================
Search <http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329052#329052> &
===========
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| Subject: | Re: 914 partial power failure |
John=0A4 EGTs would be good, 2 CHT OK. Do you have an engine monitor?=0AGra
ham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: john firth <f
irth942@btinternet.com>=0ATo: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Monda
y, 31 January, 2011 10:21:57=0ASubject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 914 partial
irth942@btinternet.com>=0A=0AThanks Bruce, I did compression check and got
just one cylinder down by 5psi, =0Aothers at 130psi engine was warm.=0Alook
s like i need some temp measuring devices but panel on my plane is very =0A
full.=0ACheers, john.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp:
//forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329060#329060=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
===================
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| Subject: | Re: rumor I heard |
Roger Lee wrote:
> EFI has been in the works for a couple of years. My guess it will be about a
$6K option. It is part electronic and part mechanical from what I hear. I hope
it comes out this year, but who knows for sure.
Hopefully carbs will still be available and the FI will remain just an option?
I'd rather stick with carbs on my next 912.
EFI is great until it breaks. Then there's no hope of ever figuring out what's
wrong with it or being able to afford the repairs (if it's going to be anything
like auto EFI).
Carbs are just so much simpler to debug and fix, so I'd rather just stick with
em....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329067#329067
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| Subject: | Re: 914 partial power failure |
Bob, I have checked the choke levers and they're ok and the thimble filters look
clean visually but i could'nt get them out. The pumps are flowing over 100litres
an hour each with no back pressure so not too suspicious there and fuel pressure
stays good while running up to 5000 rpm 3-4psi above airbox.
I am now starting to delve into the wiring.
Graham, a radiation pyrometer would be very useful, if I cannot source one nearby
I will take you up on your kind offer.
Regards, john.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329090#329090
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| Subject: | Re: 914 partial power failure |
John, did you get my first response I sent you? I'll resend it to you.
They are also called Photopyrometers or infrared temp indicators. You can
get them at Harbor Freight and most home suppy stores. You can also find a
stick type thermomenter in Martha Stewart ware or your napa auto store.
Walmart probably has both types too. It doesn't have to be precise, you are
looking for difference as opposed to absolute.
Bruce
Here is a copy of my first response to you. I pretty much covered all the
bases for you, Fule Air, Ignition, Mechanical, if you are interested, I
didn't hear back.
*b d to rotaxengines-l. *
*show details 12:07 AM (12 hours ago) *
*It may very well be in ignition this time, wires mags breaking down,
moisture in mags, and even mechanical issues valves floating, sticking etc .
. yes I know you had fuel issues too and you looked at the plugs but you may
have multiple intermittent problems on multiple systems that are more
difficult to isolate. Don't get hungup on any one idea. Keep an open mind
and try to force a failure and then isolate that failure. Fix it and then
see if there is another problem . . could be. As I said you may have
multiple things failing under temp and pressure and then they heal up when
the stress is relieved. Make sense? The difficult porblems are also the fun
ones.
Also don't forget to check carb heat . . . carb icing can cause you to pull
your hair out plus it can be damned dangerous. Yeh I know it ain't sposed to
happen on take off . . . shit happens though.
Do you have the same mag drop on both mags or more on just one mag? Mag
drops don't indicate a fuel problem but more of Ignition and or mechanical.
Roughness can be fuel, ignition, air or mechanical or worse case . . all of
the above. Try to isolate with mag check first as much as possible then use
compression test and temperature stress test. By doing these tests, you may
see a pattern or a common cylinder that is losing power (loss of power is
indicated by a lower temperature hence the CHT temp test or EGT test or
both) If you have quad temp like I do, you can analyze it from the cockpit
in flight or on the ground . . . what's four temps among friends, right?
Don't let multiple intermittent problems confuse you like it does a lot of
people. Just because you had a fuel issue doesn't mean you don't still have
problems in other systems. Have you had a lot of weather? This is what
separates the men from the boys in trouble shooting. You will need to make
the culpret(s) break down if possible by putting the engine under stress
(load) and temperature. Better on the ground than in the air. You may need
to do a compression test after the engine is warmed. Do you know how to do
that? Do a comp test early on before getting too deep. A comp test will
show valve and ring problems usually unless valves are floating, it won't
show that.
Is malfunction on same cyls all the time? Run engine up with cowling off
under load and high RPM to achieve maximum roughness and then monitor temps
of each cylinder as follows. Let engine heat up and then check differential
cyl temperature or if you have four egt's record them, is it aircooled? If
yes use a temp wand to immediately check temp on all four cyls after shut
down or have someone check cyl temps while running under load . . . caution
about spinning prop. I don't know if a 914 is aircooled or watercooled.
Watercooled is more difficult to trouble shoot by temp. Use temp wand or
photopyrometer on individual exhaust pipes if water cooled. You may be able
to detect a difference in temp right on the sparkplug. Compare apples to
apples, check all top and compare or all bottom and compare.
Good luck and let me know . . .
Bruce*
* *
On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 9:42 AM, john firth <firth942@btinternet.com> wrote:
> firth942@btinternet.com>
>
> Bob, I have checked the choke levers and they're ok and the thimble filters
> look clean visually but i could'nt get them out. The pumps are flowing over
> 100litres an hour each with no back pressure so not too suspicious there and
> fuel pressure stays good while running up to 5000 rpm 3-4psi above airbox.
> I am now starting to delve into the wiring.
> Graham, a radiation pyrometer would be very useful, if I cannot source one
> nearby I will take you up on your kind offer.
> Regards, john.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329090#329090
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: 914 partial power failure |
Hello Bruce, I did respond but got a undeliverable mail message from
postmaster. anyway here is a copy :- Thanks Bruce, I did compression
check and got just one cylinder down by 5psi, others at 130psi engine
was warm.
looks like i need some temp measuring devices but panel on my plane is
very full.-: Also Graham Singleton has offered to lend me his.
Regards, john.
> John, did you get my first response I sent you? I'll resend it to you.
> They are also called Photopyrometers or infrared temp indicators. You
can get them at Harbor Freight and most home suppy stores. You can also
find a stick type thermomenter in Martha Stewart ware or your napa auto
store. Walmart probably has both types too. It doesn't have to be
precise, you are looking for difference as opposed to absolute.
>
> Bruce
>
>
> Here is a copy of my first response to you. I pretty much covered all
the bases for you, Fule Air, Ignition, Mechanical, if you are
interested, I didn't hear back.
>
> b d to rotaxengines-l.
> show details 12:07 AM (12 hours ago)
>
> It may very well be in ignition this time, wires mags breaking down,
moisture in mags, and even mechanical issues valves floating, sticking
etc . . yes I know you had fuel issues too and you looked at the plugs
but you may have multiple intermittent problems on multiple systems that
are more difficult to isolate. Don't get hungup on any one idea. Keep an
open mind and try to force a failure and then isolate that failure. Fix
it and then see if there is another problem . . could be. As I said you
may have multiple things failing under temp and pressure and then they
heal up when the stress is relieved. Make sense? The difficult porblems
are also the fun ones.
>
> Also don't forget to check carb heat . . . carb icing can cause you to
pull your hair out plus it can be damned dangerous. Yeh I know it ain't
sposed to happen on take off . . . shit happens though.
>
> Do you have the same mag drop on both mags or more on just one mag?
Mag drops don't indicate a fuel problem but more of Ignition and or
mechanical. Roughness can be fuel, ignition, air or mechanical or worse
case . . all of the above. Try to isolate with mag check first as much
as possible then use compression test and temperature stress test. By
doing these tests, you may see a pattern or a common cylinder that is
losing power (loss of power is indicated by a lower temperature hence
the CHT temp test or EGT test or both) If you have quad temp like I do,
you can analyze it from the cockpit in flight or on the ground . . .
what's four temps among friends, right?
>
> Don't let multiple intermittent problems confuse you like it does a
lot of people. Just because you had a fuel issue doesn't mean you don't
still have problems in other systems. Have you had a lot of weather?
This is what separates the men from the boys in trouble shooting. You
will need to make the culpret(s) break down if possible by putting the
engine under stress (load) and temperature. Better on the ground than in
the air. You may need to do a compression test after the engine is
warmed. Do you know how to do that? Do a comp test early on before
getting too deep. A comp test will show valve and ring problems usually
unless valves are floating, it won't show that.
>
> Is malfunction on same cyls all the time? Run engine up with cowling
off under load and high RPM to achieve maximum roughness and then
monitor temps of each cylinder as follows. Let engine heat up and then
check differential cyl temperature or if you have four egt's record
them, is it aircooled? If yes use a temp wand to immediately check temp
on all four cyls after shut down or have someone check cyl temps while
running under load . . . caution about spinning prop. I don't know if a
914 is aircooled or watercooled. Watercooled is more difficult to
trouble shoot by temp. Use temp wand or photopyrometer on individual
exhaust pipes if water cooled. You may be able to detect a difference in
temp right on the sparkplug. Compare apples to apples, check all top and
compare or all bottom and compare.
>
> Good luck and let me know . . .
> Bruce
>
> On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 9:42 AM, john firth <firth942@btinternet.com>
wrote:
>
<firth942@btinternet.com>
>
> Bob, I have checked the choke levers and they're ok and the thimble
filters look clean visually but i could'nt get them out. The pumps are
flowing over 100litres an hour each with no back pressure so not too
suspicious there and fuel pressure stays good while running up to 5000
rpm 3-4psi above airbox.
> I am now starting to delve into the wiring.
> Graham, a radiation pyrometer would be very useful, if I cannot source
one nearby I will take you up on your kind offer.
> Regards, john.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329090#329090
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ============= gines-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
=============
lank">http://forums.matronics.com =============
Dralle, List Admin. get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
============
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: 914 partial power failure |
with the right temptation you might entice me towards Burn airfield, is ot
=0Anearer than Sherburn in Elmet?=0AHaven't seen any of those people in 20
years!=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: john
firth <firth942@btinternet.com>=0ATo: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com=0ASe
nt: Monday, 31 January, 2011 17:42:38=0ASubject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 914
firth" <firth942@btinternet.com>=0A=0ABob, I have checked the choke levers
and they're ok and the thimble filters look =0Aclean visually but i could'n
t get them out. The pumps are flowing over 100litres =0Aan hour each with n
o back pressure so not too suspicious there and fuel pressure =0Astays good
while running up to 5000 rpm 3-4psi above airbox.=0AI am now starting to d
elve into the wiring.=0AGraham, a radiation pyrometer would be very useful,
if I cannot source one =0Anearby I will take you up on your kind offer.=0A
Regards, john.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forum
=================
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| Subject: | Re: 914 partial power failure |
Hello Graham, not much difference in distance between Burn and Sherburn
from yours. My aircraft is actually at Barnsley at the moment. I will
give you a call when I know my movements this next few days but I am
working until saturday.
Regards, john.
On 31 Jan 2011, at 23:38, GRAHAM SINGLETON wrote:
> with the right temptation you might entice me towards Burn airfield,
is ot nearer than Sherburn in Elmet?
> Haven't seen any of those people in 20 years!
> Graham
>
> From: john firth <firth942@btinternet.com>
> To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Monday, 31 January, 2011 17:42:38
> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: 914 partial power failure
>
<firth942@btinternet.com>
>
> Bob, I have checked the choke levers and they're ok and the thimble
filters look clean visually but i could'nt get them out. The pumps are
flowing over 100litres an hour each with no back pressure so not too
suspicious there and fuel pressure stays good while running up to 5000
rpm 3-4psi above airbox.
> I am now starting to delve into the wiring.
> Graham, a radiation pyrometer would be very useful, if I cannot source
one nearby I will take you up on your kind offer.
> Regards, john.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
>
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=329090#3290======
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Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: rumor I heard |
As much as I like carbs I always thought the EFI was easier to work on...
Each part can be individually tested and or replaced. I've even been able
to replace coils in Chev Cavalier ECUs.
With the EFI it works yes or works no... If it works maybe then the problem
is wiring.
Carbs can require a lot more tinkering and when you get them to work they
impart a feeling of accomplishment.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of lucien
Sent: January 31, 2011 10:12 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: rumor I heard
Roger Lee wrote:
> EFI has been in the works for a couple of years. My guess it will be about
a $6K option. It is part electronic and part mechanical from what I hear. I
hope it comes out this year, but who knows for sure.
Hopefully carbs will still be available and the FI will remain just an
option? I'd rather stick with carbs on my next 912.
EFI is great until it breaks. Then there's no hope of ever figuring out
what's wrong with it or being able to afford the repairs (if it's going to
be anything like auto EFI).
Carbs are just so much simpler to debug and fix, so I'd rather just stick
with em....
LS
--------
LS
Titan II SS
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