Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:51 AM - Re: ethanol (Matt Tucciarone)
2. 06:18 AM - Re: ethanol (Thom Riddle)
3. 08:58 AM - Re: Re: ethanol (Pete Christensen)
4. 09:06 AM - Re: Re: ethanol (Pete Christensen)
5. 09:10 AM - Re: Re: ethanol (Pete Christensen)
6. 09:22 AM - Re: Re: ethanol (Richard Girard)
7. 03:59 PM - Prop Pitch Re-Visited (Roger Lee)
Message 1
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I put the marine version of Stabil in all my gas, even if I fly that
day. It has an ethanol treatment in it.
From: Richard Girard
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 11:39 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: ethanol
It isn't the storage of fuel that's the problem, it's the transfer from
jerry cans to airplane. I published this story in our EAA chapter's
newsletter a couple of years ago.
I had a rather exciting experience that occurred while refueling my
RV-6A. I have a Mazda 13B as a power plant using auto fuel. Not having
auto fuel at the airport, I have been transporting it in a 5 gallon
plastic container (approved for auto fuel) and using a funnel to pour
the gasoline into the wing tank.
Sensitive to the risks of static electricity, I always grounded (I know
- I question whether you can truly "ground" a plastic container) the
plastic container against the airframe prior to pouring in the gasoline.
I have refuel the aircraft many times before using this method (as well
numerous lawn mowers, weed wackers, etc). I had hauled the aircraft out
of the hangar and had it sitting in the middle of the tarmac in front of
the hanger and had commenced to refuel.
Well, this time it happened. As I was approximately half-way through
pouring from the five gallon container into the funnel (the plastic
funnel is a very wide mouth with a filter cartridge in its center- used
to quickly fill race cars) the fireworks started. The gasoline ignited
with a "Swoosh" and I found myself holding a flaming funnel as well as
the five gallon container which had flames coming from its opening.
Needless to say, things got very exciting and busy in a hurry. As I
reacted to the flames going off, I swung the container away, which was
in my right hand, removed the flaming funnel from the wing tank opening
with my left hand. In the process, I sloshed some flaming gasoline onto
the wing and tarmac. And flames were now also coming from the opening of
the wing tank. So by quick count, I had flames coming out of the wing
tank, some burning on the wing, a patch burning on the tarmac, a flaming
funnel as well as the 5 gallon container on fire. Did I say things got
exciting in a hurry?
I immediately move the flaming container about 12-15 feet away from the
aircraft and set it down, quickly moved the flaming funnel about 5 feet
from the container and laid it down.. Immediately dashed to the plane
and placed the fuel cap into the tank opening stuffing out that fire,
smothered the fire on the wing, ran back to the container and placed its
lid on the flaming opening smothering that fire, moved the still flaming
funnel further away, smothered the fire on the tarmac and then returned
to smother the funnel.
Finally, all fires are extinguished and I take time for a breath. Wasn't
timing myself as I was somewhat distracted at the moment, but believe
the entire event from ignition to all flames out was around 30-45
seconds (could be wrong about the time, but not by much). Old men can
move quickly if motivated properly.
Yes, I did have a fire extinguisher, but had neglected to take it out of
the car and when I ran to the car and reached under the drivers
seat=97IT was NOT there (Later found it under the passengers seat). I
also have a small Halon fire extinguisher mounted between the seats of
aircraft - but, again distance and flames were between it and me.
Won't make that mistake again. Also, I will never use a plastic
container again, but will use a metal one with a little cable attached
that I can ground to the aircraft. I will also not use a plastic funnel,
but will probably use one of the rotary pumps with hose and nozzle
grounded.
So, the good news is no damage to me or the aircraft and a much wiser
me. While it had not ever happened before, I quickly found out that one
time is one time too many.
Rick Girard
On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 6:43 PM, Rick Thomason <rickyd54@gmail.com>
wrote:
I find it odd that some airports have this policy since most plane
owners "store" over 25 gallons of fuel in the tanks of the plane. What's
the difference?
On May 25, 2011, at 12:41 PM, "ray atkinson" <raybot@comcast.net>
wrote:
I,ve burned year old gas and gas oil mix from my friends plane that
was old and never missed a beat.I know its not not great as fuel gut it
works pretty good really. Phase separation with a gallon and a half of
water? In my situation its impractical to wash gas.I am not allowed to
store gas in my hanger much less siphon it and transfer it and all this
other stuff that will eventually lead to a spill minor or
otherwise.Plane owners in adjoining hanger don,t like the smell of gas
fumes and my contract specifically forbids this.If you do it somewhere
else and then transport?
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Thomason
To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 9:24 AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: ethanol
Because they don't have fiberglass fuel tanks!
Leave a half tank of gasohol in your car for 2 months and then see
how well it runs.
Rick
On May 25, 2011, at 10:31 AM, "ray atkinson" <raybot@comcast.net>
wrote:
How in the world do millions of cars run trillions of miles
trouble free on this stuff??
----- Original Message -----
From: Pete Christensen
To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: ethanol
What I have found in washing the alcohol from my gasoline is
that a small amount of settling occurs in the tank while the plane is
sitting. I drain my gascolator before and after each flight. The
gascolator bowl has started to rust and I plan to clean it up and coat
the bowl with Kreem. I discontinued using washed gas over the winter
since my plane sat more. I may try washing my gas twice to see if this
stops the settlement.
Pete
On 2/7/2011 8:23 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
If you really, really have to fly on ethanol fuel then you
have already broken the first cardinal rule. Never leave fuel in your
plane for an extended period of time. If you have high humidity, as you
said, it will absorb some of the moisture and when that happens it, not
only gets closer to a phase separation but becomes very corrosive....
It may eat your tanks if they are anything but stainless steel. It will
probably start to eat your fuel system including the carb body and the
fuel lines. Best not to leave it in the plane and only fly on fresh
fuel. BTW you will know when you have a phase separation happening...
you will get something just over 10% of the quantity of fuel in your
tank showing up as water. So if you have left say 15 gal of fuel in
your plane then if it separates you will get 1.5 gallons of
water/ethanol solution (mostly water) hitting your carb or injectors. A
little good news is if you are using a paper filter it will try to block
the water from passing... unfortunately there won=92t be anything else
but water to pass. The milky substance you did find is probably
something the ethanol started to eat.
The second point is as Barry mentioned remove the ethanol
form your fuel by adding enough water to cause a phase separation. Then
siphon the clear ethanol free gas off the top of the water ethanol
solution that will form on the bottom of the container. Be careful
though, to let the gas sit for about twenty minutes so all the water can
settle out before siphoning the gas. And always use a good chamois or
felt to strain your gas... either of those products will pass gas but
not water. If you remove the ethanol from your fuel then it won=92t
hurt to leave the gas in your plane between flights for periods of up to
I guess a month or so.
Noel
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
FLYaDIVE
Sent: February 7, 2011 2:29 PM
To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: ethanol
Joe:
There are a few things that would cause your fuel to go
cloudy:
Contamination in the tank.
Hygroscopic action of the alcohol
Temperature (low) causing the water to freeze
Being that you found only 1/2 ounce I would also consider:
The drain plugs as being contaminated due to oxidation
How clean was the inspection tube that you were using
When you say 'separation', are you referring to the water
separating out from the fuel due to saturation? If yes, then YES you
could be seeing the water above what the alcohol would hold in
suspension.
A 1/2 ounce... I would not worry about. But why use gas
with ethanol - Do the separation procedure that has been discussed here
on line and you will reduce the chances of water.
Barry
On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 10:10 AM, Joe and Joan Kimbell
<jnjkimbell@hotmail.com> wrote:
Appreciate some info concerning fuel seperation. I have
CH701 with the 100hp riotax. I live in a high humedity area and have
not been flying much lately. I use 10% ethanol fuel and last time I
started to fly (fuel had been in A/C over a month) and checked the
lowest drain, I found cloudy fuel, not water, but did not lood good. I
continued to drain fuel until it was clear, probably a half an ounce.
Was this cloudy fuel on the point of seperation? I did go ahead and fly
with no problems, but after thinking about it, what would the list's
ideas be. Very glad it kept running, though an both tanks the fuel
seemed to come out of only one tank. No external fuel pump. Gravity
feed.
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Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be
unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
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Rick,
Thanks for your fire story. Glad that you had a very cheap learning experience.
Could have been disastrous.
That is the first actual case of fire from static discharge I've heard of using
plastic cans for filling an aircraft tank. I use a 15 gallon storage tank and
hand pump but have been neglecting grounding it to the airframe due to sheer
laziness. I will be grounding from now on, without fail.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
Truth is what stands the test of experience.
- Albert Einstein
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=341093#341093
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http://portablefuelsystems.com/AlcoholSeparator.htm
On 5/25/2011 9:18 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> Hello Pete:
> I went to the web site, could not find anythng about washing the gas
> or octain ratings.
> Could you send the exact link that will get me to where you read the
> information.
> Barry
>
> On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 7:00 PM, Pete Christensen
> <pchristensen10@austin.rr.com <mailto:pchristensen10@austin.rr.com>>
> wrote:
>
> According to Portablefuelsystems.com before washing 91.3 octane
> after washing 88.7.
>
> Pete
>
>
> On 5/25/2011 5:28 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>> Hi Roger:
>>
>> How did you get the octane rating of 87 after washing 91?
>>
>> Alcohol does add a small amount of octane but I really doubt if
>> it is 4 points.
>>
>> Do you know anyone that can run octane tests?
>>
>> I have a couple of tests I want to get done.
>>
>> As for the pitting of the fuel bowl... That is an easy cure.
>> Send it out and get it Hard Coat Anodized to a thickness of
>> 0.0025". It should cost about $20 to $50 tops. When talking to
>> the plating house you - should - know what kind of aluminum it is
>> made from. OR at least if it is cast or machined from a billet.
>> Also be nice to the house and ask if they could just run it with
>> a bigger batch - NO SPECIAL HANDLING REQUIRED. This keeps price
>> down.
>>
>> Barry
>> On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 3:12 PM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1@yahoo.com
>> <mailto:ssadiver1@yahoo.com>> wrote:
>>
>> <ssadiver1@yahoo.com <mailto:ssadiver1@yahoo.com>>
>>
>> If you use washed 91 oct it will be 87 when your done. If you
>> have a 912ULS (100 hp) that won't work. If you start with 87
>> oct it isn't fit for either 912. You will eventually end up
>> replacing the carb bowls at $100 a piece because the very
>> small amount of moisture still in the fuel will pit the
>> aluminum bowl. I have had to replace a few of these already
>> for the long term hard core washers.
>>
>> --------
>> Roger Lee
>> Tucson, Az.
>> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
>> Rotax Repair Center
>> Home 520-574-1080 <tel:520-574-1080> TRY HOME FIRST
>> Cell 520-349-7056 <tel:520-349-7056>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340993#340993
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> -List"
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Roger,
I have an older 912 from 1991 so I do not need more than 87 octane.
Here in the Austin area the pumps say 93 octane. I'm interested in the
bowl pitting. Does the corrosion eat through the bowls? I'm on pure
avgas not but thought I would start testing a 2 phase washing process in
the near future. I guess a guy could slosh the bowls with Kreem to
prevent pitting.
Pete
Leander, Tx
Kitfox III 912
On 5/25/2011 7:39 PM, Roger Lee wrote:
> --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Roger Lee"<ssadiver1@yahoo.com>
>
> I have seen two test reports from the companies that make these fuel washing
systems. They both showed me reports starting with 91 and came out with 87. No
matter what the octane (88.7 or 87) it's too low for the 912ULS and it still
causes corrosion in either engine. The ethanol is not an issue at all for the
Rotax 912 series engine. You just need to make sure you use the proper fuel hoses
and know what your fuel tank is made out of. I have seen several people take
their tanks and slosh them with Kreem Weiss and just use the ethanol since
it is impervious to the ethanol. The fuel storage issue in hangars is a fire code
issue and airports don't normally buck that system as it would leave them
liable.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center
> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
> Cell 520-349-7056
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=341050#341050
>
>
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Here is what I got from Portable Fuel Systems;
"Hi Pete,
Thank you for your interest in PortableFuelSystems.com!
The whole process is controlled by a microcontroller with custom
firmware, custom sensors, and is optimized to allow for various (and
dynamic) settle times based on the water content remaining after the
separation process is complete. After the process is complete, we
utilize various traps and water block filters to remove the suspended
water to a level that is less than what will be absorbed from the
atmosphere.
In the dry climate here in Arizona, I have noticed no water in the fuel
system resulting from the use of the separator. This is much better
than I was getting from the local pumps.
If you have any more questions, please feel free to contact me directly!
Nick
Nick Myers
Vice President/CTO
Take the gas station where you need it!
(480) 639-3140
nmyers@portablefuelsystems.com <mailto:nmyers@portablefuelsystems.com>
www.PortableFuelSystems.com" <http://www.portablefuelsystems.com/>
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Thom, Somehow I missed giving credit to Ed Anderson who had the experience,
I only published it in "The Beacon". My apologies if I mislead anyone. Ed
contributes to the RV and Aeroelectric forums here on Matronics.
Rick
On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 8:15 AM, Thom Riddle <riddletr@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
>
> Rick,
>
> Thanks for your fire story. Glad that you had a very cheap learning
> experience. Could have been disastrous.
>
> That is the first actual case of fire from static discharge I've heard of
> using plastic cans for filling an aircraft tank. I use a 15 gallon storage
> tank and hand pump but have been neglecting grounding it to the airframe due
> to sheer laziness. I will be grounding from now on, without fail.
>
> --------
> Thom Riddle
> Buffalo, NY (9G0)
> Kolb Slingshot SS-021
> Jabiru 2200A #1574
> Tennessee Prop 64x32
>
> Truth is what stands the test of experience.
> - Albert Einstein
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=341093#341093
>
>
--
Zulu Delta
Mk IIIC
Thanks, Homer GBYM
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy.
- Groucho Marx
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| Subject: | Prop Pitch Re-Visited |
Posted from another source.
Roger,
Kinda my thoughts too... thanks.
If this weather would ever give me a chance I would just go out and enjoy the plane
- guess there are advantages to living in AZ but I wouldn't trade places
in a couple of months - grin!!
Btw you might fwd all this to the Matronics site as I have no idea of how to do
it as a package - probably at least a couple of others wondering about pitch
settings. Your original explanation to me about not striving for 5800 rpm and
setting up the prop for 5500 rpm WOT at cruise altitude to capitalize on the
5000 - 5300 best power range for cruise was right-on. Proved by the T/O performance,
cruise speeds AND backed up by Warp Drive.
I think I asked this before but would you change the oil and filter now I have
13 hours on the engine. As Rotax is a "new animal" on the block, my thoughts
go back to my previous A&P days dealings with new or overhauled Lycoming and
Continental motors where we change the oil at 10 to 15 hours and took a really
good look at the filter to see what was going on - or wait till the 25 hr inspection
IAW Rotax? I think you said wait till 25 hours.
Vann, You might want to open a dialog with Roger. He has a wealth of information
on care and feeding of Rotax Engines and happily shares it with us.
Tnx
Phil
On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 6:19 PM, roger lee wrote:
Hi Phil,
You are not over pitching a prop if you can achieve 5500 rpm at WOT. So long as
you are within the proper prop length for your plane, which you are, then it
doesn't matter about the pitch numbers. each plane is a tad different and you
need to set a prop for your plane and that may differ ever so slightly from another
persons even with the same plane. You only care at this point about what
the idle is, 1700-1800, and what WOT is at your normal cruise altitude which
should be right around 5500-5550 rpm. Everything else in the middle will take
care for itself. looks to me that your numbers are just fine. just go fly and
enjoy your plane.
The engine torque is taken care of by making sure the engine sees the proper rpm.
If we had an in flight adjustable we could have the best of all worlds, but
since we have a ground adjustable we need to balance climb, cruise, fuel, torque
and rpm.
Roger Lee
--- On Wed, 5/25/11, Philip Smith wrote:
From: Philip Smith
Subject: Re: pitch
Cc: "roger lee"
Vann,
Tnx I'll look into it.
I wasn't blindly adjusting the pitch - I had a conversation with the folks at Warp
Drive about reducing the diameter of the prop supplied through Zenith of 70"
dia that would have been set at 11.0 to 11.5 degrees to blades supplied from
Warp Drive at 68" dia that are set at 13.5 degrees.
I just wasn't comfortable with the ground clearance at 70" dia. When I decided
to use the shorter blades the value for pitch was given to me from Warp Drive
as 13.5 degrees.
I find that at WOT throttle at 4500 - 5000 feet (field elevation 3660), OAT 60
F I get about 5500 rpm - right where Roger Lee says I want it. I then use 5000
- 5300 for cruise and get about 85 indicated at 5000 and about 95 at 5300.
Where did you get your info - are you confusing it with the MOI figures that are
published by Rotax???? Btw the 68" dia prop with nickel leading edge is right
at the MOI limits suggested by Rotax according to my measurements.
Haven't heard the problem of too much torque and as always am interested in any
and all information. Notice I am forwarding this to Roger Lee as well for his
input.
Tnx
Phil
On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 9:34 AM, vann covington wrote:
Just saw your message on metronics. A word of caution. 13.5 pitch on the warp
is too much in my opinion. It creates too much torque on uls. 11 to 11.5 is
more like it. You may damage your engine trying to get that extra cruise. I
believe there was a rotax notice about over pitching. Check it out.
Fly safe,
Vann Covington N701EV
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=341155#341155
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