---------------------------------------------------------- RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 05/26/11: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:51 AM - Re: ethanol (Matt Tucciarone) 2. 06:18 AM - Re: ethanol (Thom Riddle) 3. 08:58 AM - Re: Re: ethanol (Pete Christensen) 4. 09:06 AM - Re: Re: ethanol (Pete Christensen) 5. 09:10 AM - Re: Re: ethanol (Pete Christensen) 6. 09:22 AM - Re: Re: ethanol (Richard Girard) 7. 03:59 PM - Prop Pitch Re-Visited (Roger Lee) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:51:27 AM PST US From: "Matt Tucciarone" Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: ethanol I put the marine version of Stabil in all my gas, even if I fly that day. It has an ethanol treatment in it. From: Richard Girard Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 11:39 PM Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: ethanol It isn't the storage of fuel that's the problem, it's the transfer from jerry cans to airplane. I published this story in our EAA chapter's newsletter a couple of years ago. I had a rather exciting experience that occurred while refueling my RV-6A. I have a Mazda 13B as a power plant using auto fuel. Not having auto fuel at the airport, I have been transporting it in a 5 gallon plastic container (approved for auto fuel) and using a funnel to pour the gasoline into the wing tank. Sensitive to the risks of static electricity, I always grounded (I know - I question whether you can truly "ground" a plastic container) the plastic container against the airframe prior to pouring in the gasoline. I have refuel the aircraft many times before using this method (as well numerous lawn mowers, weed wackers, etc). I had hauled the aircraft out of the hangar and had it sitting in the middle of the tarmac in front of the hanger and had commenced to refuel. Well, this time it happened. As I was approximately half-way through pouring from the five gallon container into the funnel (the plastic funnel is a very wide mouth with a filter cartridge in its center- used to quickly fill race cars) the fireworks started. The gasoline ignited with a "Swoosh" and I found myself holding a flaming funnel as well as the five gallon container which had flames coming from its opening. Needless to say, things got very exciting and busy in a hurry. As I reacted to the flames going off, I swung the container away, which was in my right hand, removed the flaming funnel from the wing tank opening with my left hand. In the process, I sloshed some flaming gasoline onto the wing and tarmac. And flames were now also coming from the opening of the wing tank. So by quick count, I had flames coming out of the wing tank, some burning on the wing, a patch burning on the tarmac, a flaming funnel as well as the 5 gallon container on fire. Did I say things got exciting in a hurry? I immediately move the flaming container about 12-15 feet away from the aircraft and set it down, quickly moved the flaming funnel about 5 feet from the container and laid it down.. Immediately dashed to the plane and placed the fuel cap into the tank opening stuffing out that fire, smothered the fire on the wing, ran back to the container and placed its lid on the flaming opening smothering that fire, moved the still flaming funnel further away, smothered the fire on the tarmac and then returned to smother the funnel. Finally, all fires are extinguished and I take time for a breath. Wasn't timing myself as I was somewhat distracted at the moment, but believe the entire event from ignition to all flames out was around 30-45 seconds (could be wrong about the time, but not by much). Old men can move quickly if motivated properly. Yes, I did have a fire extinguisher, but had neglected to take it out of the car and when I ran to the car and reached under the drivers seat=97IT was NOT there (Later found it under the passengers seat). I also have a small Halon fire extinguisher mounted between the seats of aircraft - but, again distance and flames were between it and me. Won't make that mistake again. Also, I will never use a plastic container again, but will use a metal one with a little cable attached that I can ground to the aircraft. I will also not use a plastic funnel, but will probably use one of the rotary pumps with hose and nozzle grounded. So, the good news is no damage to me or the aircraft and a much wiser me. While it had not ever happened before, I quickly found out that one time is one time too many. Rick Girard On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 6:43 PM, Rick Thomason wrote: I find it odd that some airports have this policy since most plane owners "store" over 25 gallons of fuel in the tanks of the plane. What's the difference? On May 25, 2011, at 12:41 PM, "ray atkinson" wrote: I,ve burned year old gas and gas oil mix from my friends plane that was old and never missed a beat.I know its not not great as fuel gut it works pretty good really. Phase separation with a gallon and a half of water? In my situation its impractical to wash gas.I am not allowed to store gas in my hanger much less siphon it and transfer it and all this other stuff that will eventually lead to a spill minor or otherwise.Plane owners in adjoining hanger don,t like the smell of gas fumes and my contract specifically forbids this.If you do it somewhere else and then transport? ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Thomason To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 9:24 AM Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: ethanol Because they don't have fiberglass fuel tanks! Leave a half tank of gasohol in your car for 2 months and then see how well it runs. Rick On May 25, 2011, at 10:31 AM, "ray atkinson" wrote: How in the world do millions of cars run trillions of miles trouble free on this stuff?? ----- Original Message ----- From: Pete Christensen To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 7:37 AM Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: ethanol What I have found in washing the alcohol from my gasoline is that a small amount of settling occurs in the tank while the plane is sitting. I drain my gascolator before and after each flight. The gascolator bowl has started to rust and I plan to clean it up and coat the bowl with Kreem. I discontinued using washed gas over the winter since my plane sat more. I may try washing my gas twice to see if this stops the settlement. Pete On 2/7/2011 8:23 PM, Noel Loveys wrote: If you really, really have to fly on ethanol fuel then you have already broken the first cardinal rule. Never leave fuel in your plane for an extended period of time. If you have high humidity, as you said, it will absorb some of the moisture and when that happens it, not only gets closer to a phase separation but becomes very corrosive.... It may eat your tanks if they are anything but stainless steel. It will probably start to eat your fuel system including the carb body and the fuel lines. Best not to leave it in the plane and only fly on fresh fuel. BTW you will know when you have a phase separation happening... you will get something just over 10% of the quantity of fuel in your tank showing up as water. So if you have left say 15 gal of fuel in your plane then if it separates you will get 1.5 gallons of water/ethanol solution (mostly water) hitting your carb or injectors. A little good news is if you are using a paper filter it will try to block the water from passing... unfortunately there won=92t be anything else but water to pass. The milky substance you did find is probably something the ethanol started to eat. The second point is as Barry mentioned remove the ethanol form your fuel by adding enough water to cause a phase separation. Then siphon the clear ethanol free gas off the top of the water ethanol solution that will form on the bottom of the container. Be careful though, to let the gas sit for about twenty minutes so all the water can settle out before siphoning the gas. And always use a good chamois or felt to strain your gas... either of those products will pass gas but not water. If you remove the ethanol from your fuel then it won=92t hurt to leave the gas in your plane between flights for periods of up to I guess a month or so. Noel From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE Sent: February 7, 2011 2:29 PM To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: ethanol Joe: There are a few things that would cause your fuel to go cloudy: Contamination in the tank. Hygroscopic action of the alcohol Temperature (low) causing the water to freeze Being that you found only 1/2 ounce I would also consider: The drain plugs as being contaminated due to oxidation How clean was the inspection tube that you were using When you say 'separation', are you referring to the water separating out from the fuel due to saturation? If yes, then YES you could be seeing the water above what the alcohol would hold in suspension. A 1/2 ounce... I would not worry about. But why use gas with ethanol - Do the separation procedure that has been discussed here on line and you will reduce the chances of water. Barry On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 10:10 AM, Joe and Joan Kimbell wrote: Appreciate some info concerning fuel seperation. I have CH701 with the 100hp riotax. I live in a high humedity area and have not been flying much lately. I use 10% ethanol fuel and last time I started to fly (fuel had been in A/C over a month) and checked the lowest drain, I found cloudy fuel, not water, but did not lood good. I continued to drain fuel until it was clear, probably a half an ounce. Was this cloudy fuel on the point of seperation? I did go ahead and fly with no problems, but after thinking about it, what would the list's ideas be. Very glad it kept running, though an both tanks the fuel seemed to come out of only one tank. No external fuel pump. Gravity feed. ========= > > > ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-Listtp: //forums.matronics.com_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-Listhttp://forums.matroni cs.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List">http://www. matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ====== Email scanned by PC Tools - No viruses or spyware found. 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(Email Guard: 7.0.0.21, Virus/Spyware Database: 6.17590) http://www.pctools.com ======= ========= st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List ========= ums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ========= http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribut ion ========= ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:18:47 AM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: ethanol From: "Thom Riddle" Rick, Thanks for your fire story. Glad that you had a very cheap learning experience. Could have been disastrous. That is the first actual case of fire from static discharge I've heard of using plastic cans for filling an aircraft tank. I use a 15 gallon storage tank and hand pump but have been neglecting grounding it to the airframe due to sheer laziness. I will be grounding from now on, without fail. -------- Thom Riddle Buffalo, NY (9G0) Kolb Slingshot SS-021 Jabiru 2200A #1574 Tennessee Prop 64x32 Truth is what stands the test of experience. - Albert Einstein Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=341093#341093 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:58:10 AM PST US From: Pete Christensen Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: ethanol http://portablefuelsystems.com/AlcoholSeparator.htm On 5/25/2011 9:18 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote: > Hello Pete: > I went to the web site, could not find anythng about washing the gas > or octain ratings. > Could you send the exact link that will get me to where you read the > information. > Barry > > On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 7:00 PM, Pete Christensen > > > wrote: > > According to Portablefuelsystems.com before washing 91.3 octane > after washing 88.7. > > Pete > > > On 5/25/2011 5:28 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote: >> Hi Roger: >> >> How did you get the octane rating of 87 after washing 91? >> >> Alcohol does add a small amount of octane but I really doubt if >> it is 4 points. >> >> Do you know anyone that can run octane tests? >> >> I have a couple of tests I want to get done. >> >> As for the pitting of the fuel bowl... That is an easy cure. >> Send it out and get it Hard Coat Anodized to a thickness of >> 0.0025". It should cost about $20 to $50 tops. When talking to >> the plating house you - should - know what kind of aluminum it is >> made from. OR at least if it is cast or machined from a billet. >> Also be nice to the house and ask if they could just run it with >> a bigger batch - NO SPECIAL HANDLING REQUIRED. This keeps price >> down. >> >> Barry >> On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 3:12 PM, Roger Lee > > wrote: >> >> > >> >> If you use washed 91 oct it will be 87 when your done. If you >> have a 912ULS (100 hp) that won't work. If you start with 87 >> oct it isn't fit for either 912. You will eventually end up >> replacing the carb bowls at $100 a piece because the very >> small amount of moisture still in the fuel will pit the >> aluminum bowl. I have had to replace a few of these already >> for the long term hard core washers. >> >> -------- >> Roger Lee >> Tucson, Az. >> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated >> Rotax Repair Center >> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST >> Cell 520-349-7056 >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=340993#340993 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ========== >> -List" >> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List >> ========== >> http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> le, List Admin. >> ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> >> >> * >> >> >> * > > * > > ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List > ttp://forums.matronics.com > _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > * > > > * > > > * ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:06:04 AM PST US From: Pete Christensen Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: ethanol Roger, I have an older 912 from 1991 so I do not need more than 87 octane. Here in the Austin area the pumps say 93 octane. I'm interested in the bowl pitting. Does the corrosion eat through the bowls? I'm on pure avgas not but thought I would start testing a 2 phase washing process in the near future. I guess a guy could slosh the bowls with Kreem to prevent pitting. Pete Leander, Tx Kitfox III 912 On 5/25/2011 7:39 PM, Roger Lee wrote: > --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Roger Lee" > > I have seen two test reports from the companies that make these fuel washing systems. They both showed me reports starting with 91 and came out with 87. No matter what the octane (88.7 or 87) it's too low for the 912ULS and it still causes corrosion in either engine. The ethanol is not an issue at all for the Rotax 912 series engine. You just need to make sure you use the proper fuel hoses and know what your fuel tank is made out of. I have seen several people take their tanks and slosh them with Kreem Weiss and just use the ethanol since it is impervious to the ethanol. The fuel storage issue in hangars is a fire code issue and airports don't normally buck that system as it would leave them liable. > > -------- > Roger Lee > Tucson, Az. > Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated > Rotax Repair Center > Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST > Cell 520-349-7056 > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=341050#341050 > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:10:48 AM PST US From: Pete Christensen Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: ethanol Here is what I got from Portable Fuel Systems; "Hi Pete, Thank you for your interest in PortableFuelSystems.com! The whole process is controlled by a microcontroller with custom firmware, custom sensors, and is optimized to allow for various (and dynamic) settle times based on the water content remaining after the separation process is complete. After the process is complete, we utilize various traps and water block filters to remove the suspended water to a level that is less than what will be absorbed from the atmosphere. In the dry climate here in Arizona, I have noticed no water in the fuel system resulting from the use of the separator. This is much better than I was getting from the local pumps. If you have any more questions, please feel free to contact me directly! Nick Nick Myers Vice President/CTO Take the gas station where you need it! (480) 639-3140 nmyers@portablefuelsystems.com www.PortableFuelSystems.com" ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:22:27 AM PST US Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: ethanol From: Richard Girard Thom, Somehow I missed giving credit to Ed Anderson who had the experience, I only published it in "The Beacon". My apologies if I mislead anyone. Ed contributes to the RV and Aeroelectric forums here on Matronics. Rick On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 8:15 AM, Thom Riddle wrote: > > > > Rick, > > Thanks for your fire story. Glad that you had a very cheap learning > experience. Could have been disastrous. > > That is the first actual case of fire from static discharge I've heard of > using plastic cans for filling an aircraft tank. I use a 15 gallon storage > tank and hand pump but have been neglecting grounding it to the airframe due > to sheer laziness. I will be grounding from now on, without fail. > > -------- > Thom Riddle > Buffalo, NY (9G0) > Kolb Slingshot SS-021 > Jabiru 2200A #1574 > Tennessee Prop 64x32 > > Truth is what stands the test of experience. > - Albert Einstein > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=341093#341093 > > -- Zulu Delta Mk IIIC Thanks, Homer GBYM It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. - Groucho Marx ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:59:53 PM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Prop Pitch Re-Visited From: "Roger Lee" Posted from another source. Roger, Kinda my thoughts too... thanks. If this weather would ever give me a chance I would just go out and enjoy the plane - guess there are advantages to living in AZ but I wouldn't trade places in a couple of months - grin!! Btw you might fwd all this to the Matronics site as I have no idea of how to do it as a package - probably at least a couple of others wondering about pitch settings. Your original explanation to me about not striving for 5800 rpm and setting up the prop for 5500 rpm WOT at cruise altitude to capitalize on the 5000 - 5300 best power range for cruise was right-on. Proved by the T/O performance, cruise speeds AND backed up by Warp Drive. I think I asked this before but would you change the oil and filter now I have 13 hours on the engine. As Rotax is a "new animal" on the block, my thoughts go back to my previous A&P days dealings with new or overhauled Lycoming and Continental motors where we change the oil at 10 to 15 hours and took a really good look at the filter to see what was going on - or wait till the 25 hr inspection IAW Rotax? I think you said wait till 25 hours. Vann, You might want to open a dialog with Roger. He has a wealth of information on care and feeding of Rotax Engines and happily shares it with us. Tnx Phil On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 6:19 PM, roger lee wrote: Hi Phil, You are not over pitching a prop if you can achieve 5500 rpm at WOT. So long as you are within the proper prop length for your plane, which you are, then it doesn't matter about the pitch numbers. each plane is a tad different and you need to set a prop for your plane and that may differ ever so slightly from another persons even with the same plane. You only care at this point about what the idle is, 1700-1800, and what WOT is at your normal cruise altitude which should be right around 5500-5550 rpm. Everything else in the middle will take care for itself. looks to me that your numbers are just fine. just go fly and enjoy your plane. The engine torque is taken care of by making sure the engine sees the proper rpm. If we had an in flight adjustable we could have the best of all worlds, but since we have a ground adjustable we need to balance climb, cruise, fuel, torque and rpm. Roger Lee --- On Wed, 5/25/11, Philip Smith wrote: From: Philip Smith Subject: Re: pitch Cc: "roger lee" Vann, Tnx I'll look into it. I wasn't blindly adjusting the pitch - I had a conversation with the folks at Warp Drive about reducing the diameter of the prop supplied through Zenith of 70" dia that would have been set at 11.0 to 11.5 degrees to blades supplied from Warp Drive at 68" dia that are set at 13.5 degrees. I just wasn't comfortable with the ground clearance at 70" dia. When I decided to use the shorter blades the value for pitch was given to me from Warp Drive as 13.5 degrees. I find that at WOT throttle at 4500 - 5000 feet (field elevation 3660), OAT 60 F I get about 5500 rpm - right where Roger Lee says I want it. I then use 5000 - 5300 for cruise and get about 85 indicated at 5000 and about 95 at 5300. Where did you get your info - are you confusing it with the MOI figures that are published by Rotax???? Btw the 68" dia prop with nickel leading edge is right at the MOI limits suggested by Rotax according to my measurements. Haven't heard the problem of too much torque and as always am interested in any and all information. Notice I am forwarding this to Roger Lee as well for his input. Tnx Phil On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 9:34 AM, vann covington wrote: Just saw your message on metronics. A word of caution. 13.5 pitch on the warp is too much in my opinion. It creates too much torque on uls. 11 to 11.5 is more like it. You may damage your engine trying to get that extra cruise. I believe there was a rotax notice about over pitching. Check it out. Fly safe, Vann Covington N701EV -------- Roger Lee Tucson, Az. Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated Rotax Repair Center Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST Cell 520-349-7056 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=341155#341155 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rotaxengines-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RotaxEngines-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rotaxengines-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.