Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:09 AM - Oil (Roger Lee)
2. 09:31 AM - Re: Oil (Thom Riddle)
3. 09:58 AM - Re: Oil (Ollie Washburn)
4. 10:15 AM - Re: Oil (Roger Lee)
5. 11:37 AM - Re: Oil (Thom Riddle)
6. 11:50 AM - Re: Oil (Thom Riddle)
7. 12:29 PM - Re: Oil (Roger Lee)
8. 06:42 PM - Re: Oil (dashwood)
9. 07:34 PM - Re: Oil (Roger Lee)
10. 07:53 PM - Re: Oil (Roger Lee)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Posted from another site:
When I turn my engine over by hand (usually after flight to check the oil level)
I sometimes get a squeak that seems to come from the gearbox near the propeller
hub. It seems to be more pronounced when the engine is warm. Any ideas if
this is a problem, or what causes it?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
First response:
I can tell you exactly what this is and you may be skeptical, but we can fix it.
It may be a combo of two things, but possibly just one.
First out of curiosity what oil are you using? This is one of the issues. It will
be the low ZDDP (a zinc phosphorous compound) additive. This is why motorcycle
oil and the better oils are important.
The second issue that adds to this is usually, but not always, a low slipper clutch
friction torque.
What causes the squeak is actually a metal to metal rub from lack of ZDDP metal
protection and sometimes coupled with low slipper clutch torque from the gearbox.
Let me know on the oil type and we can get you fixed. If you have your slipper
clutch torque I would like to know that too.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Second response:
There is both problems. Get rid of the Pennzoil before you cause any damage. It
is a long term issue not one you will see today. The gearbox is trying to tell
you something. You should not be using a straight mineral based oil. It does
not have the protection between metal parts in a highly mechanical close tolerance
environment that you need. You are also loosing your shear protection which
basically means your are loosing some viscosity. Most of the big touring
motorcycles and most of the real hard riders won't use straight mineral based
Pennzoil. Use a good semi or full synthetic and with the proper levels of ZDDP
the squeak will go away, but first you need to get that gearbox re-shimmed. The
normal torque I usually see is anywhere from 440-490 in/lbs with the average
at 465 in/lbs. Too low a slipper torque will cause damage too.
You do those two things and you will have one happy gearbox and you will be too.
I'll see if we can't get something in a blog on oil soon for everyone so they know
what's in an oil and why we can't use car oils and why we need a good motorcycle
additive package. There are not so good motorcycle additive packaged oil.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Final answer:
You need to make up your own mind on oils, but here are a few of my favorites from
solid research and field experience.
Oil topics can be a very hot topic to say the least. I might have to sleep with
one eye open tonight.
Full Synthetic: (not in any order) Use with auto fuel only.
Mobile One Racing 4T 10-40W, Mobile 1 V-Twin 20-50W, Amsoil 10-40W or 20-50W
All these full synthetics are good oils and have a good additive package and base
stock oil.
Use with 100LL or auto fuel.
Semi Synthetic: Aero Shell Sport Plus 4 10-40W, Golden Spectro 4 10-40W or 20-50W
As of this writing I would personally use Golden Spectro 4 semi synthetic 10-40W
or 20-50W because I believe it is a better choice over the Aero Shell Sport
Plus 4. Aero Shell Sport Plus 4 was developed in England and it is Mfg. there.
I haven't found anyone in the US that knows diddly about its properties. Aero
Shell's base stock and low 800 ppm ZDDP additive amongst a few other items cause
this not to be as good a choice.
ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl-Dithio-Phosphate) is a sacrificial coating on metal parts to
keep parts from going metal to metal. If it is of a too low a ppm then that
protection is very poor at best.
I have been told they are going to reformulate next year with a new base stock
and up the ZDDP level to around 1500ppm.
>From all the research I have done, these oils contain good, high quality base
stock oils and sufficient additives to support the engine.
I hope this helps and doesn't throw more mud into your decision.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350108#350108
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Roger,
Why are you recommending against Pennzoil Motorcyle Oil when the latest SI from
Rotax, dated 2004 still includes this oil in the recommended group for those
using 100LL fuel? There are two other oils in this SI which are listed as NOT
recommended, so it is not as if this was an oversight by Rotax.
The Diamond Katana I maintain, which uses 100LL 100% of the time has about 1800
hours on the engine has not had any problems whatsoever. We had the gearbox clutch
cleaned and serviced by Lockwood in May. This engine has been running nothing
but Pennzoil Motorcylcle oil (APISH) for at least the last four years since
I have been doing service on it.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
Truth is what stands the test of experience.
- Albert Einstein
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350112#350112
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Thanks Roger, I appreciate your comments.
On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 11:06 AM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Posted from another site:
>
> When I turn my engine over by hand (usually after flight to check the oil level)
I sometimes get a squeak that seems to come from the gearbox near the propeller
hub. It seems to be more pronounced when the engine is warm. Any ideas if
this is a problem, or what causes it?
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> First response:
>
> I can tell you exactly what this is and you may be skeptical, but we can fix
it. It may be a combo of two things, but possibly just one.
> First out of curiosity what oil are you using? This is one of the issues. It
will be the low ZDDP (a zinc phosphorous compound) additive. This is why motorcycle
oil and the better oils are important.
>
> The second issue that adds to this is usually, but not always, a low slipper
clutch friction torque.
>
> What causes the squeak is actually a metal to metal rub from lack of ZDDP metal
protection and sometimes coupled with low slipper clutch torque from the gearbox.
>
> Let me know on the oil type and we can get you fixed. If you have your slipper
clutch torque I would like to know that too.
>
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Second response:
>
> There is both problems. Get rid of the Pennzoil before you cause any damage.
It is a long term issue not one you will see today. The gearbox is trying to tell
you something. You should not be using a straight mineral based oil. It does
not have the protection between metal parts in a highly mechanical close tolerance
environment that you need. You are also loosing your shear protection
which basically means your are loosing some viscosity. Most of the big touring
motorcycles and most of the real hard riders won't use straight mineral based
Pennzoil. Use a good semi or full synthetic and with the proper levels of ZDDP
the squeak will go away, but first you need to get that gearbox re-shimmed.
The normal torque I usually see is anywhere from 440-490 in/lbs with the average
at 465 in/lbs. Too low a slipper torque will cause damage too.
>
> You do those two things and you will have one happy gearbox and you will be too.
>
>
> I'll see if we can't get something in a blog on oil soon for everyone so they
know what's in an oil and why we can't use car oils and why we need a good motorcycle
additive package. There are not so good motorcycle additive packaged
oil.
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Final answer:
>
>
> You need to make up your own mind on oils, but here are a few of my favorites
from solid research and field experience.
>
> Oil topics can be a very hot topic to say the least. I might have to sleep with
one eye open tonight.
>
>
> Full Synthetic: (not in any order) Use with auto fuel only.
>
> Mobile One Racing 4T 10-40W, Mobile 1 V-Twin 20-50W, Amsoil 10-40W or 20-50W
> All these full synthetics are good oils and have a good additive package and
base stock oil.
>
> Use with 100LL or auto fuel.
> Semi Synthetic: Aero Shell Sport Plus 4 10-40W, Golden Spectro 4 10-40W or 20-50W
>
> As of this writing I would personally use Golden Spectro 4 semi synthetic 10-40W
or 20-50W because I believe it is a better choice over the Aero Shell Sport
Plus 4. Aero Shell Sport Plus 4 was developed in England and it is Mfg. there.
I haven't found anyone in the US that knows diddly about its properties. Aero
Shell's base stock and low 800 ppm ZDDP additive amongst a few other items
cause this not to be as good a choice.
> ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl-Dithio-Phosphate) is a sacrificial coating on metal parts
to keep parts from going metal to metal. If it is of a too low a ppm then that
protection is very poor at best.
> I have been told they are going to reformulate next year with a new base stock
and up the ZDDP level to around 1500ppm.
>
> >From all the research I have done, these oils contain good, high quality base
stock oils and sufficient additives to support the engine.
>
>
> I hope this helps and doesn't throw more mud into your decision.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
> Cell 520-349-7056
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350108#350108
>
>
--
>From Central Florida,
Ollie
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Manuals and testing don't always keep up with current day information.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350119#350119
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Thanks for the file, Roger. I'll read it soon.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
Truth is what stands the test of experience.
- Albert Einstein
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350129#350129
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Once I opened the file, I realized I had seen and read it before. This study commissioned
by AMSOIL rated AMSOIL at the top overall, unsurprisingly. My question
for you Roger, is why do you not recommend AMSOIL motorcycle oil if you trust
this study? I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand
the rationale for your recommendations based on this study?
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Tennessee Prop 64x32
Truth is what stands the test of experience.
- Albert Einstein
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350132#350132
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Hi Thom,
I'm not using this to recommend any specific brand of oil only as an educational
tool on oils and additives that are suited to our purpose. The decision is up
to you once you are armed with the information.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350134#350134
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
i read this file a couple years ago and swithched from the mobile one at 250hr
to the amsoil 1040. at the 400+ hr i had to replace the gearbox..( see posts
by me) after rebuild i was still using amsoil til i read the revised list from
rotax and shell +4 had been added to the top of the list.. i swithed ... the
gal/hr fuel rate improved. the static oil temp went down, the egt went down across
the board. the steam guage style oil pressure guage started to read a little
lower at full rpm ( 70psi down from 75) and was down to the mid 30psi at idle..=
became more responsive to rpm. i now do consume about. 1 oz of oil / hr
whereas before with the full senthetic i had no consumption between oil changes.
this is expensive oil. but mho is the engine is running much better on it
--------
Ross Aalexander: CH701 driver 912ul 490tt
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350155#350155
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
None of the top oils will make a gearbox go bad in 400 hrs. Unless you leave oil
in too long and do poor maint. and even that would take time. No gearbox should
ever go bad at 400 hrs. unless there was a mechanical issue to start with.
The top Oils wouldn't cause that. Were you doing 100 hr. slipper clutch torque
test? Back then no one knew about the Aero Shell Sport Plus 4 either. Now we
do.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350159#350159
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
For the guys that come to me I will not recommend Aero Shell any longer until it
is reformulated. For the guys that need a semi synthetic I will recommend Golden
Spectro 4 motorcycle oil (10-40W or 20-50W) It has been around for a long
time, rated high and has been tested in high rpm, high performance motorcycles
for many years.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350163#350163
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|