Today's Message Index:
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1. 05:37 AM - Re: Re Oil - Aeroshell Sport Plus 4 (Catz631@aol.com)
2. 06:58 AM - Re: Re Oil - Aeroshell Sport Plus 4 (Roger Lee)
3. 08:19 AM - Re: Re: Re Oil - Aeroshell Sport Plus 4 (paul wilson)
4. 08:32 AM - Re: Re Oil - Aeroshell Sport Plus 4 (Roger Lee)
5. 08:34 AM - Re: Re Oil - Aeroshell Sport Plus 4 (Roger Lee)
6. 08:57 AM - Re: Re: Re Oil - Aeroshell Sport Plus 4 (John Fasching)
7. 08:57 AM - Re: Re: Re Oil - Aeroshell Sport Plus 4 (Gordon)
8. 04:32 PM - Re: Re Oil - Aeroshell Sport Plus 4 (Roger Lee)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Re Oil - Aeroshell Sport Plus 4 |
Roger,
This ZDDP thing is a big deal in the old British and American car world.
It was added to the oil as a sacrificial wear molecule for flat tappet
engines.(modern engines have a different design) Without it the cam lobes wear
at a high rate.
The motor oil industry has recently reformulated the motor oils to include
less ZDDP because of its effects on the catalytic converter. As a result
of this you either have to find an oil that still has the higher amounts of
ZDDP(such as Valvoline one racing oil) or add it yourself. In my case I am
using Castrol 20-50 in my Triumph TR3 but now add a small bottle of ZDDP
at each oil change.
It is interesting to note that the articles I have read about the subject
fail to mention that ZDDP in high amounts is necessary for anything other
than lifter/cam lobe scuffing. If it is necessary for the gear
train/slipper clutch and Aeroshell Plus 4 is deficient in ZDDP you could always
add it
to the oil. In my case I don't have a slipper clutch and is ZDDP necessary
for the gears OR for the cam /valve scuffing.
I have a couple of cases of Aeroshell plus 4 and would be adverse to
getting rid of it because it has worked out to be a very good oil.(won't really
know till overhaul)None of the other oils were made specifically for the
Rotax as Plus 4 was. IF it turns out that in fact more ZDDP is necessary (and
if in fact the other oil has it) well..I always have the little bottles of
ZDDP available to add in the proper ratio until the oil is reformulated.
Dick Maddux
Kitfox 4
912UL
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Re Oil - Aeroshell Sport Plus 4 |
Hi Dick,
How have you been?
Your exactly right about the use of ZDDP in older cars and the fact that when catalytic
converters came out it had to be reduced because it trashed the converter,
plus the EPA wanted reduced levels. So car oils came down to approximately
800ppm. This is the exact reason we don't use car oils in our Rotax. So why
use a motorcycle oil with car level ZDDP? Older cars still need it for the flat
tappet lifters. The big issue here is that Rotax 912 engines use flat tappet
lifters. The auto industry responded and designed roller cam shafts and don't
need all the ZDDP. Without enough ZDDP flat tappet lifters wear out much faster
and can gall. There is a lot of stress on flat tappet lifters. Now let's toss
in a gearbox that shares our oil. The cars didn't have to worry about the
gearbox part. Motorcycle's like our Rotax shares it's engine oil with the engine.
The gearbox has a very high mechanical action on the oil's shear properties
and very close tolerances as it should, but without the proper levels of ZDDP
then you will have excessive gear wear and galling. The ZDDP is a sacrificial
coating to prevent this. If you doubt any of this there are thousands of pages
of research to back this up on the web. We need to have around 1500ppm to protect
our flat tappet lifters and gearbox. Zinc is not necessarily the important
part, but the phosphorus is what makes it adhere to the metal. Now ZDDP is
just one additive we need so you also need to look at the oil's total additive
package.
Dick,
So to answer your question the clutch isn't the important part so if you have one
or not it isn't really the issue. The issue is protecting the gears, lifters
and other metal to meat close tolerance parts. You may be on to something if
you add a little on the side, but I wouldn't get carried away with the ZDDP additive.
Too much probably isn't good either.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350304#350304
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Re Oil - Aeroshell Sport Plus 4 |
Hi Roger,
Good info, however you should update your knowledge base. the SM
grade oils these days are quite a bit less than 800ppm. Even the
diesel oils these days are way below the 1500ppm that most all
engines require. The general rule is avoid SM oils and try to find SL
oils for your car or just add the ZDDP to what ever SM oil you like.
Optionally use an oil that meets the Euro standard instead of API
standards. That test standard is ACEA and grade E7/E5 would be ok
instead of SM only oils.
For the Rotax the Motorcycle oils are high in ZDDP due to the
requirements for gear lube. Always consult the Rotax bulletin for
acceptable oils. Experimentation on oils is not good.
PaulW
============
At 07:55 AM 8/23/2011, you wrote:
>
>Hi Dick,
>
>How have you been?
>
>Your exactly right about the use of ZDDP in older cars and the fact
>that when catalytic converters came out it had to be reduced because
>it trashed the converter, plus the EPA wanted reduced levels. So car
>oils came down to approximately 800ppm. This is the exact reason we
>don't use car oils in our Rotax. So why use a motorcycle oil with
>car level ZDDP? Older cars still need it for the flat tappet
>lifters. The big issue here is that Rotax 912 engines use flat
>tappet lifters. The auto industry responded and designed roller cam
>shafts and don't need all the ZDDP. Without enough ZDDP flat tappet
>lifters wear out much faster and can gall. There is a lot of stress
>on flat tappet lifters. Now let's toss in a gearbox that shares our
>oil. The cars didn't have to worry about the gearbox part.
>Motorcycle's like our Rotax shares it's engine oil with the engine.
>The gearbox has a very high mechanical action on the oil's shear
>properties and very close tolerances as it should, but withou!
> t the proper levels of ZDDP then you will have excessive gear wear
> and galling. The ZDDP is a sacrificial coating to prevent this. If
> you doubt any of this there are thousands of pages of research to
> back this up on the web. We need to have around 1500ppm to protect
> our flat tappet lifters and gearbox. Zinc is not necessarily the
> important part, but the phosphorus is what makes it adhere to the
> metal. Now ZDDP is just one additive we need so you also need to
> look at the oil's total additive package.
>
>Dick,
>
>So to answer your question the clutch isn't the important part so if
>you have one or not it isn't really the issue. The issue is
>protecting the gears, lifters and other metal to meat close
>tolerance parts. You may be on to something if you add a little on
>the side, but I wouldn't get carried away with the ZDDP additive.
>Too much probably isn't good either.
>
>--------
>Roger Lee
>Tucson, Az.
>Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
>Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
>Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
>Cell 520-349-7056
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350304#350304
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Re Oil - Aeroshell Sport Plus 4 |
Howdy Paul,
Thanks, Your correct and that makes my case even stronger. I don't know as much
about car oils and I only used it as a reference as to what ZDDP was used for.
The only issue with the Rotax operating fluid oil publication is Rotax openly admits
they can only test or even willing to spend the money on testing a couple
of oils from around the world. There are so many it is buyer get educated. Since
none of us are testing facilities or have access to test the many varieties
of oils we all have to depend on what the research is in the field and what
the oil companies are willing to talk about.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350313#350313
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Re Oil - Aeroshell Sport Plus 4 |
I knew before I ever posted this that oil is a hot topic and it's like discussing
religion and politics. So I was mentally ready for the fluid discussion. [Wink]
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350316#350316
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Re Oil - Aeroshell Sport Plus 4 |
Roger,
I did a little searching re ZDDP and the hot-roders are really into it.
If, repeat, IF, my calculations are correct, you can add a ZDDP additive,
available at auto stores, to the Aeroshell Sport Plus 4 at a rate of 1.479
fluid oz to one liter of the oil and come up with 1,500 ppm of ZDDP. I have
a case of Aeroshell on hand and don't want to 'waste' it by not using it
right now in the 912ULS.
Your thoughts?
John at Salida, CO
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 9:31 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Re Oil - Aeroshell Sport Plus 4
>
> I knew before I ever posted this that oil is a hot topic and it's like
> discussing religion and politics. So I was mentally ready for the fluid
> discussion. [Wink]
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
> Cell 520-349-7056
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350316#350316
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Re Oil - Aeroshell Sport Plus 4 |
I just tuned in --- so, what's the bottom line with respect to sport plus 4?
Is it no longer an approved or recommended oil for the 912s?
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 11:31 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Re Oil - Aeroshell Sport Plus 4
>
> I knew before I ever posted this that oil is a hot topic and it's like
> discussing religion and politics. So I was mentally ready for the fluid
> discussion. [Wink]
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
> Cell 520-349-7056
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350316#350316
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Re Oil - Aeroshell Sport Plus 4 |
Hi Dick and John,
See Dick I told you you might be on to something. John's doing the research. Nice
work. I do wonder why Aero shell wants to not only change the additives, but
the base stock too? They had a foaming issue a while back too they had to correct.
Kind of makes you wonder.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=350371#350371
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