Today's Message Index:
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1. 05:46 AM - N912RV power failure on takeoff (Bob Heiser)
2. 07:01 AM - Re: N912RV power failure on takeoff (David Weaver)
3. 07:13 AM - Re: N912RV power failure on takeoff (Nati Niv)
4. 09:36 PM - Fuel filters (Roger Lee)
Message 1
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| Subject: | N912RV power failure on takeoff |
Has anyone else had a problem with an automotive 12v electric fuel pump?
The following is the story of trouble shooting the engine quit on takeoff.
==================================================================
With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son I trouble shot the
loss of power.
Checked inside the right tank for debris none found.
The tank appeared empty, no gas came out of quick drain.We removed the
quick drain with a pan to catch any gas or debris.We drained about and
ounce of gas trapped because the quick drain extends into the wing.No
water and just a few specks of dirt were found.
Removed mechanical fuel pump and it worked properly.
The clear fuel filter (in fuel line going to mechanical pump) was empty.
We tried blowing air into the tank from the fuel hose that connects to
the input of the mechanical pump.Unable to blow air into either tank.
The rout of fuel to the mechanical fuel pump is:Tank, fuel selector 12v
Electric fuel pump, clear glass fuel filter, mechanical pump.
We removed the hose between the fuel selector and 12v electric fuel
pump.Still unable to blow through the electric pump.Note, all that is
left is 1 hose and the 12v electric pump.All the fuel hoses were in good
condition, no swelling, able to look thru the short hoses.
We removed the wings because the spars prevented access to the 12v
electric fuel pump.Access to the electric pump was still difficult thru
a hole in the seat bottom.After we removed the electric pump it was no
longer restricted.The removal process cleared the obstruction.We checked
the fuel line from the mechanical fuel pump to the electric pump for
debris, none found.
When telling the trouble shooting story on the airport a pilot friend
said he had a similar problem with an automotive electric fuel pump in a
SkyBolt he built years ago.
Note the Facet 574A fuel pump was supplied in the Aero Designs Kit.It is
turned on for 15 seconds prior to engine start.There have been reports
of the electric pump and mechanical pump both on flooding the carb's. I
did see higher than recommended pressures during flight testing with the
electric pump on.
It took 4 minutes for the engine to reach 120F before starting takeoff.
About half the time was taxi, the other half at 4000 rpm waiting for the
oil temperature to reach 120F. Do not know how many ounces of fuel the
carb's hold. Wonder if the 4 minutes + was just running on fuel in the
carbs?
--
*God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT*
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: N912RV power failure on takeoff |
Bob,
Last year, during trip to Lawrence to attend reunion, I experienced fuel st
arvation that caused rough engine operation (could barely maintain altitude
).=C2- I diverted 10 miles off course and made it to the nearest airport
as identified on my Garmin 496 GPS.=C2- Switching fuel tanks made no impr
ovement in rough engine operation.=C2- Before landing, I was already regr
etting=C2-the installation of=C2-an in-line fuel filter with the fuel p
ump.=C2- Upon landing, I discovered that the in-line NAPA fuel filter (gl
ass cylinder with removable filter element) was indeed the problem.=C2- N
o clearly visible debris trapped in fine brass filter screen.=C2- Much re
sistance though when I tried to blow through it with one end blocked.=C2-
When held up to bright light, it was visible that it was approx. 90% block
ed.=C2- The engine operated normally with the filter element left out.=C2
- Gasoline will deposit a varnish like residue in fuel systems.=C2- Wit
h a good gascolator I am convinced that
any other filter on the output side of the firewall mounted gascolator is
more of a hazard and offers little benefit.=C2- I run 87 octane auto fuel
with up to 10% ethanol and the 912 UL engine runs clean and reliable.=C2
- The fuel sealer in=C2-all 3 tanks on the XP seems to be holding up we
ll.=C2- Fuel tank coating debris is something I watch for in the gascolat
or collection bowl.=C2- I have no experience with any problems with the F
acett electric fuel pump.=C2- I do monitor fuel pressure on my panel.=C2
- As far as I know, the one way valves in the Facett pump are extremely r
eliable.
Dave Weaver N912GR
--- On Sat, 4/21/12, Bob Heiser <w7ikt@fly-web.us> wrote:
From: Bob Heiser <w7ikt@fly-web.us>
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: N912RV power failure on takeoff
Has anyone else had a problem with an automotive 12v electric fuel pump?
The following is the story of trouble shooting the engine quit on takeoff.
================
With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son I trouble shot the los
s of power.
=C2=B7=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- Checked inside the right t
ank for debris none found.
=C2=B7=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- The tank appeared empty, n
o gas came out of quick drain.=C2- We removed the quick drain with a pan
to catch any gas or debris.=C2- We drained about and ounce of gas trapped
because the quick drain extends into the wing.=C2- No water and just a f
ew specks of dirt were found.
=C2=B7=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- Removed mechanical fuel pu
mp and it worked properly.
=C2=B7=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- The clear fuel filter (in
fuel line going to mechanical pump) was empty.
=C2=B7=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- We tried blowing air into
the tank from the fuel hose that connects to the input of the mechanical pu
mp.=C2- Unable to blow air into either tank.
=C2=B7=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- The rout of fuel to the me
chanical fuel pump is:=C2- Tank, fuel selector 12v Electric fuel pump, cl
ear glass fuel filter, mechanical pump.
=C2=B7=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- We removed the hose betwee
n the fuel selector and 12v electric fuel pump.=C2- Still unable to blow
through the electric pump.=C2- Note, all that is left is 1 hose and the 1
2v electric pump.=C2- All the fuel hoses were in good condition, no swell
ing, able to look thru the short hoses.
=C2=B7=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- We removed the wings becau
se the spars prevented access to the 12v electric fuel pump.=C2- Access t
o the electric pump was still difficult thru a hole in the seat bottom.=C2
- After we removed the electric pump it was no longer restricted.=C2- T
he removal process cleared the obstruction.=C2- We checked the fuel line
from the mechanical fuel pump to the electric pump for debris, none found.
=C2-
When telling the trouble shooting story on the airport a pilot friend said
he had a similar problem with an automotive electric fuel pump in a SkyBolt
he built years ago.
Note the Facet 574A fuel pump was supplied in the Aero Designs Kit.=C2- I
t is turned on for 15 seconds prior to engine start.=C2- There have been
reports of the electric pump and mechanical pump both on flooding the carb
=99s.=C2- I did see higher than recommended pressures during flight
testing with the electric pump on.
It took 4 minutes for the engine to reach 120F before starting takeoff.=C2
- About half the time was taxi, the other half at 4000 rpm waiting for th
e oil temperature to reach 120F.=C2- Do not know how many ounces of fuel
the carb's hold.=C2- Wonder if the 4 minutes + was just running on fuel i
n the carbs?
--
God Bless
Bob Heiser W7IKT
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: N912RV power failure on takeoff |
Bingo!!!
Same thing happened to me couple of years ago. Electric pump+filter that
came with it. Removed the filter and since then, many hours of smooth
flying !!!!
Safe flying
Nati
On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 9:00 AM, David Weaver <mortweaver@sbcglobal.net>wro
te:
> Bob,
> Last year, during trip to Lawrence to attend reunion, I experienced fuel
> starvation that caused rough engine operation (could barely maintain
> altitude). I diverted 10 miles off course and made it to the nearest
> airport as identified on my Garmin 496 GPS. Switching fuel tanks made no
> improvement in rough engine operation. Before landing, I was already
> regretting the installation of an in-line fuel filter with the fuel pump.
> Upon landing, I discovered that the in-line NAPA fuel filter (glass
> cylinder with removable filter element) was indeed the problem. No clear
ly
> visible debris trapped in fine brass filter screen. Much resistance
> though when I tried to blow through it with one end blocked. When held u
p
> to bright light, it was visible that it was approx. 90% blocked. The
> engine operated normally with the filter element left out. Gasoline will
> deposit a varnish like residue in fuel systems. With a good gascolator I
> am convinced that any other filter on the output side of the firewall
> mounted gascolator is more of a hazard and offers little benefit. I run
87
> octane auto fuel with up to 10% ethanol and the 912 UL engine runs clean
> and reliable. The fuel sealer in all 3 tanks on the XP seems to be holdi
ng
> up well. Fuel tank coating debris is something I watch for in the
> gascolator collection bowl. I have no experience with any problems with
> the Facett electric fuel pump. I do monitor fuel pressure on my panel.
As
> far as I know, the one way valves in the Facett pump are extremely reliab
le.
> Dave Weaver N912GR
>
> --- On *Sat, 4/21/12, Bob Heiser <w7ikt@fly-web.us>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Bob Heiser <w7ikt@fly-web.us>
> Subject: RotaxEngines-List: N912RV power failure on takeoff
> To: pulsar-list@matronics.com, rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> Date: Saturday, April 21, 2012, 7:44 AM
>
> Has anyone else had a problem with an automotive 12v electric fuel pump?
> The following is the story of trouble shooting the engine quit on takeoff
.
> ========================
=================
>
>
> With permission from the NTSB and the help of my son I trouble shot the
> loss of power.
>
> =B7 Checked inside the right tank for debris none found.
>
> =B7 The tank appeared empty, no gas came out of quick drain. We
> removed the quick drain with a pan to catch any gas or debris. We
> drained about and ounce of gas trapped because the quick drain extends in
to
> the wing. No water and just a few specks of dirt were found.
>
> =B7 Removed mechanical fuel pump and it worked properly.
>
> =B7 The clear fuel filter (in fuel line going to mechanical pump)
> was empty.
>
> =B7 We tried blowing air into the tank from the fuel hose that
> connects to the input of the mechanical pump. Unable to blow air into
> either tank.
>
> =B7 The rout of fuel to the mechanical fuel pump is: Tank, fuel
> selector 12v Electric fuel pump, clear glass fuel filter, mechanical pump
.
>
> =B7 We removed the hose between the fuel selector and 12v electric
> fuel pump. Still unable to blow through the electric pump. Note, all
> that is left is 1 hose and the 12v electric pump. All the fuel hoses
> were in good condition, no swelling, able to look thru the short hoses.
>
> =B7 We removed the wings because the spars prevented access to the
> 12v electric fuel pump. Access to the electric pump was still difficult
> thru a hole in the seat bottom. After we removed the electric pump it
> was no longer restricted. The removal process cleared the obstruction.
We
> checked the fuel line from the mechanical fuel pump to the electric pump
> for debris, none found.
>
> When telling the trouble shooting story on the airport a pilot friend sai
d
> he had a similar problem with an automotive electric fuel pump in a SkyBo
lt
> he built years ago.
>
> Note the Facet 574A fuel pump was supplied in the Aero Designs Kit. It
> is turned on for 15 seconds prior to engine start. There have been
> reports of the electric pump and mechanical pump both on flooding the
> carb=92s. I did see higher than recommended pressures during flight test
ing
> with the electric pump on.
>
> It took 4 minutes for the engine to reach 120F before starting takeoff.
> About half the time was taxi, the other half at 4000 rpm waiting for the
> oil temperature to reach 120F. Do not know how many ounces of fuel the
> carb's hold. Wonder if the 4 minutes + was just running on fuel in the
> carbs?
>
> --
> *God Bless
> Bob Heiser W7IKT*
>
> *
>
> ist" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Ro
taxEngines-List
> et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com
> llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> *
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
Message 4
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The issue with some filters is that the ethanol will make them swell and reduce
flow. Make sure you use a good quality filter meant to handle any fuel you may
use. Some filter elements will break down after long exposure to ethanol. Ethanol
will cause many plastic filters to become soft. It is advisable to use a
metal filter with a metal mesh screen. Then there is never a worry. There is
no need to have a clear filter so you can see through it because you should be
checking the filter every 100 hours or each annual.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
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