Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 11:42 AM - Rotallxl 912 ULS Mystery (JohnF)
2. 11:55 AM - Re: Rotallxl 912 ULS Mystery (william sullivan)
3. 12:07 PM - Re: Rotallxl 912 ULS Mystery (R Holder)
4. 01:23 PM - Rotax 912 ULS Mystery (JohnF)
5. 02:29 PM - Re: Rotax 912 ULS Mystery (FLYaDIVE)
6. 02:55 PM - Re: Schicke GR6 Voltage Regulator (FLYaDIVE)
7. 03:06 PM - Re: Rotax 912 ULS Mystery (JohnF)
8. 03:58 PM - Re: Rotax 912 ULS Mystery (FLYaDIVE)
9. 04:35 PM - Re: Rotallxl 912 ULS Mystery (Jack Lockamy)
10. 05:57 PM - Re: Rotax 912 ULS Mystery (bjones@dmv.com)
11. 07:55 PM - Re: Strange Problem (ronlee)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Rotallxl 912 ULS Mystery |
After a nice runup last evening; that is, nice mag drops (about 100 on
each side) and static rpm around 5050, and engine running smoothing.
This morning I took the plane out to fly...taxi to end of runway (about
one mile) and did runup with oil temp 125-degrees F. Mag drop 330/360
- very untypical, and running rough. Static impossible to reach. Engine
rpm decreased as throttle advanced past 4050 rpm or so....very
rough...idle way too low...around 800 rpm.
Experienced RV builder and local A&P got involved. We tried all sorts
of things; like removing the air filters...no difference....sometimes,
not always, if top cowling was removed engine ran fine...sometimes not.
Nothing touches the cowl when it is on so nothing is interfering with
the engine due to cowl on or off. Only air flow may be different.
Reseated carbs after looking at the rubber ring they mount on...look
OK..carbs secure. All controls smooth and move stop to stop.
Because engine SOMETIME ran well with top cowling off, we put it on and
taped the oil filler door open to see if increased air flow would make
any difference...it did not.
This is the third time the plane was just fine when put away and no good
the following morning.
Temperatures have been moderate....high 40's at night, low 80's mid day.
Scat cooling from cowl to engine shroud secure and clear.
Pulling electric fuel pump fuse with engine running lowered fuel
pressure slightly but made no difference in poor operation....nor does
it make a difference with the engine is running well.
I am told that the definition of stupidity is doing the same thing over
and over and expecting different results. I seem to be at that point
now.
'Its still one giant mystery of intermittent good/bad operation.
John
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Rotallxl 912 ULS Mystery |
- Do you have rubber fuel lines (automotive type)?- Feel them looking f
or soft spots or irregularities.- Might be a flap in a line.-
--- On Fri, 6/8/12, JohnF <n29cx@ridgeviewtel.us> wrote:
From: JohnF <n29cx@ridgeviewtel.us>
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Rotallxl 912 ULS Mystery
=0A=0A =0A =0A=0A=0A=0AAfter a nice runup last evening; that is, nice mag
=0Adrops (about 100 on each side) and static rpm around 5050, and engine ru
nning =0Asmoothing.=0A-=0AThis morning I took the plane out to fly...taxi
to =0Aend of runway (about one mile) and did runup with oil temp 125-degre
es =0AF.-- -Mag drop 330/360 - very untypical, and running rough. =0A
Static impossible to reach. Engine rpm decreased as throttle advanced past
4050 =0Arpm or so....very rough...idle way too low...around 800 rpm.=0A-
=0AExperienced RV- builder and local A&P got =0Ainvolved. We tried all so
rts of things; like removing the air filters...no =0Adifference....sometime
s, not always, if top cowling was removed engine ran =0Afine...sometimes no
t. Nothing touches the cowl when it is on so nothing is =0Ainterfering with
the engine due to cowl on or off. Only air flow may be =0Adifferent.=0A-
=0AReseated carbs after looking at the rubber ring =0Athey mount on...look
OK..carbs secure. All controls smooth and move stop to =0Astop.=0A-=0ABec
ause engine SOMETIME ran well with top cowling =0Aoff, we put it on and tap
ed the oil filler door open to see if increased air =0Aflow would make any
difference...it did not.=0A-=0AThis is the third time the plane was just
fine when =0Aput away and no good the following morning.=0ATemperatures hav
e been moderate....high 40's at =0Anight, low 80's mid day.=0A-=0AScat co
oling- from cowl to engine shroud =0Asecure and clear.=0A-=0APulling el
ectric fuel pump fuse with engine running =0Alowered fuel pressure slightly
but made no difference in poor operation....nor =0Adoes it make a differen
ce with the engine is running well.=0A-=0AI am told that the definition o
f stupidity is doing =0Athe same thing over and over and expecting differen
t results. I seem to be at =0Athat point now.=0A-=0A'Its still one giant
mystery of intermittent =0Agood/bad operation.=0A-=0AJohn=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_
-========================
=====================0A=0A
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Rotallxl 912 ULS Mystery |
On 08/06/2012 19:42, JohnF wrote:
> After a nice runup last evening; that is, nice mag drops
> (about 100 on each side) and static rpm around 5050, and
> engine running smoothing.
> This morning I took the plane out to fly...taxi to end of
> runway (about one mile) and did runup with oil temp
> 125-degrees F. Mag drop 330/360 - very untypical, and
> running rough. Static impossible to reach. Engine rpm
> decreased as throttle advanced past 4050 rpm or so....very
> rough...idle way too low...around 800 rpm.
> Experienced RV builder and local A&P got involved. We
> tried all sorts of things; like removing the air
> filters...no difference....sometimes, not always, if top
> cowling was removed engine ran fine...sometimes not.
> Nothing touches the cowl when it is on so nothing is
> interfering with the engine due to cowl on or off. Only
> air flow may be different.
> Reseated carbs after looking at the rubber ring they mount
> on...look OK..carbs secure. All controls smooth and move
> stop to stop.
> Because engine SOMETIME ran well with top cowling off, we
> put it on and taped the oil filler door open to see if
> increased air flow would make any difference...it did not.
> This is the third time the plane was just fine when put
> away and no good the following morning.
> Temperatures have been moderate....high 40's at night, low
> 80's mid day.
> Scat cooling from cowl to engine shroud secure and clear.
> Pulling electric fuel pump fuse with engine running
> lowered fuel pressure slightly but made no difference in
> poor operation....nor does it make a difference with the
> engine is running well.
> I am told that the definition of stupidity is doing the
> same thing over and over and expecting different results.
> I seem to be at that point now.
> 'Its still one giant mystery of intermittent good/bad
> operation.
> John
Idiot suggestion (idiot = me)
Have you checked that the plug leads are correctly
positioned and you haven't put a #1 plug cap on a #3 plug ?
Richard
Message 4
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| Subject: | Rotax 912 ULS Mystery |
Yes, plugs and wires checked and re-checked...all tags are on correct
cylinder. Even if they were not, I can't figure out how it would work
just fine sometimes and sometimes not...wires to plugs wouldn't jump
around by thermselves.
As to fuel hoses...no auto stuff...alll fuel hoses are Rotax supplied
lines; nothing kinked.
The salient thing here is the movement from normal operation to abnormal
operation for an unknown reason. I know there's a reason, I just don't
know what it is ! !
86.4 hours on the engine.
PLEASE continue coming with ideas/suggestions no matter how 'far out' --
we're really at sea on this one.
John
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 ULS Mystery |
John:
Questions come to mind:
1. Was the engine overhauled?
2. Is the engine Factory New?
3. Did you check the service bulletin on the fuel pump fuel line?
4. Have you done a compression check?
5. Have you pulled the spark plugs immediately after the problem occurs?
6. Have you done a high voltage check on the spark plug wires for
breakdown?
7. Since after the long taxi the problem occurs - Are you using AvGas?
8. Since after the long taxi the problem occurs - Are you seeing plug
fouling?
9. Since after the long taxi the problem occurs - What color are the
deposits on the exhaust pipe?
10. Vibration causes many a problem - You have the problem then
you dismantle the cowling and look under the hood - Then the engine runs
good - You shut down for the day - You re-assemble the cowling and ALL the
items you touched - Then the next day the problem reoccurs - And if I have
read correctly this is the procedure that you have followed and each time
the problem came back? Sure points to something that is being moved and
touched.
11. Where is the ignition system mounted? Mounting coils on the engine
is not a good practice. Mounting near heat is not a good practice.
OK - That is all I can think of right now.
Good Luck,
Barry
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Schicke GR6 Voltage Regulator |
Brian:
That is exactly what a Voltage Regulator (VR) a.k.a Alternator Control Unit
(ACU) does. It monitors the output voltage to the system (BUSS / B+) and
regulates the voltage. It DOES NOT monitor the voltage for the equipment -
It monitors it for the BATTERY. The battery has two requirements:
1 - It stores chemical energy which is turned into CURRENT for the
equipment and starter to work.
2 - It filters the charging voltage so as to eliminate peaks and valleys.
A 12 V battery requires 13.8 to 14.8 VDC to charge so the VR supplies that
to the battery and system.
Some alternators have built in VR and others have external VR; each have
their advantages. Ya pays ya money and ya takes ya chances.
Barry
On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 9:23 AM, Brian Ellis <e.brian44@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi all
>
> It seems to me that Rotax are missing a trick here with their voltage
> regulators.
>
> As we all know aircraft are now carrying more and
> more sophisticated electronics on board, yet their regulator remains
> at least a 20 year old design and does occasionally fail causing a frying
> of expensive electronics as the result of high voltage output.
>
> One would think that Rotax could offer a voltage regulator that monitors
> the output voltage at its output to the aircraft supply. Should the voltage
> rise above 15v the unit would cut the output to the aircraft supply to
> prevent damage to the expensive electronics. The aircraft could then
> continue on the 12v supply from the on board battery.
>
> There are some add ons on sale that does the same job but
> fitting introspectively is usually a pain; but to be able to just swap the
> regulator for another Rotax one with built in protection utilizing the
> Rotax plug / existing mounting holes is a much easier option.
>
> Brian
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* R Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk>
> *To:* rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 31, 2012 9:35 AM
> *Subject:* RotaxEngines-List: Schicke GR6 Voltage Regulator
>
>
> On 30/05/2012 23:35, FLYaDIVE wrote:
>
> > BUT! I can't believe that no one here in the USA makes
> > a voltage regulator!
>
> > There are ONLY three connections - Ground - Field &
> > Output. Any regulator can handle that!
>
> This is not quite true. The regulator for the Rotax needs
> to rectify the AC current out of the stator first. And
> there is no field on a stator !
>
> The connections have to be
>
> Stator (AC) 2 cables
> 12v output
> Earth output
> Warning light
>
> You may find that there is a suitable rectifier-regulator
> available for the smaller John Deere tractors which will
> do the job.
>
> There are pictures on t'internet somewhere, and although
> it may be a bit chunky it will be built to last
> cs.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.;
> - List ===
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 ULS Mystery |
Barry, here are the answers to your questions.
1. Not overhauled
2. Factory new 86.4 hours total time
3. Service bulletin re pump hoses not applicable. I have just installed
the new style fuel pump...after problems, reinstalled the old one...no
help, put back on the new pump
4. Compression check? Yes..all cylinders within a psi of each other and
all like factory new readings
5. Pulled plugs after problems? Yes, the first time, and regapped them
from 0.023 to 0.027 per a suggestion from Roger Lee who is a real Rotax
guru
6. Av gas"? NO 91octane auto fuel always been used...only once did I
add 5-gallons of 100LL but that was some time ago when wx kept plane
down longer than I wanted with autogas in it
7.Fouling? Yes...the problem is engine running WAY WAY too rich when it
is acting up....brand new plugs, properly installed .. 10 minutes of
running blackened them
8. Exhaust deposts...No
9. Ignition location? This one thing I really dislike about the Rotax;
if you want to really get involved with the timing, and ignition you
probably will have to remove the engine entirely
Most of it is really buried beneath the myrid number of
hoses....really difficult machine to service if what you need isn't
right on the top of the machine.
Thanks for your input
John
----- Original Message -----
From: FLYaDIVE
To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2012 3:28 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 912 ULS Mystery
John:
Questions come to mind:
1.. Was the engine overhauled?
2.. Is the engine Factory New?
3.. Did you check the service bulletin on the fuel pump fuel line?
4.. Have you done a compression check?
5.. Have you pulled the spark plugs immediately after the problem
occurs?
6.. Have you done a high voltage check on the spark plug wires for
breakdown?
7.. Since after the long taxi the problem occurs - Are you using
AvGas?
8.. Since after the long taxi the problem occurs - Are you seeing
plug fouling?
9.. Since after the long taxi the problem occurs - What color are
the deposits on the exhaust pipe?
10.. Vibration causes many a problem - You have the problem then you
dismantle the cowling and look under the hood - Then the engine runs
good - You shut down for the day - You re-assemble the cowling and ALL
the items you touched - Then the next day the problem reoccurs - And if
I have read correctly this is the procedure that you have followed and
each time the problem came back? Sure points to something that is being
moved and touched.
11.. Where is the ignition system mounted? Mounting coils on the
engine is not a good practice. Mounting near heat is not a good
practice.
OK - That is all I can think of right now.
Good Luck,
Barry
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 ULS Mystery |
John:
I inserted my response within the body of the email.
Barry
On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 6:05 PM, JohnF <n29cx@ridgeviewtel.us> wrote:
> **
> Barry, here are the answers to your questions.
>
> 1. Not overhauled
> 2. Factory new 86.4 hours total time
> 3. Service bulletin re pump hoses not applicable. I have just installed
> the new style fuel pump...after problems, reinstalled the old one...no
> help, put back on the new pump
> 4. Compression check? Yes..all cylinders within a psi of each other and
> all like factory new readings
> 5. Pulled plugs after problems? Yes, the first time, and regapped them
> from 0.023 to 0.027 per a suggestion from Roger Lee who is a real Rotax guru
> 6. Av gas"? NO 91octane auto fuel always been used...only once did I add
> 5-gallons of 100LL but that was some time ago when wx kept plane down
> longer than I wanted with autogas in it
> 7.Fouling? Yes...the problem is engine running WAY WAY too rich when it is
> acting up....brand new plugs, properly installed .. 10 minutes of running
> blackened them
>
[Barry] - That is a BINGO - Since they are becoming black that points to a
couple possibles:
a> Engine set too rich for both the idle and high end.
b> Poor Spark
c> Opening the plug gap may help a little but a difference of 0.004" is not
going to cure the problem.
d> BLACK is an indication of two things - Carbon from too rich a fuel
mixture and OIL!
Oil is a bad thing because it could indicate bad rings or the rings were
installed incorrectly.
Rich Fuel - Is not a problem since that can be adjusted via the carb.
QUESTION: Any idea what kind of voltage the ignition system is producing?
GA Mags put out about 18,000 Volts, Electronic Ignitions are 60,000 to
100,000 Volts and the gaps on them are 0.035 to 0.045". Big gaps equal big
sparks which equal better fuel burn, more HP and no carbon.
QUESTION: What heat range plugs are you using? Higher heat range offers
less carbon-ing. BUT, you don't want too high otherwise you can get a hot
running engine and maybe pre-ignition.
> 8. Exhaust deposts...No
>
[Barry] - This does not sound correct. If the plugs are carbon-ing up the
rest of the carbon has to be going out the exhaust. Wipe down the exhaust
pipe and see what builds up - Also inspect the rag after wiping.
John - What are your thoughts on my item #10?
QUESTION - Do you have access to an exhaust gas analyzer? I am in NJ and
have a portable one.
A THOUGHT: As I mentioned - Heat on an ignition coil can cause problems,
indicate a cracked coil and even cause the coil to break down. Put is a
small SCAT Tube and have it blow outside air on the coils. This is
something we do for GA Mags, they run HOT.
So, back to you John - Let's solve this issue.
Barry
9. Ignition location? This one thing I really dislike about the Rotax; if
> you want to really get involved with the timing, and ignition you probably
> will have to remove the engine entirely
> Most of it is really buried beneath the myrid number of
> hoses....really difficult machine to service if what you need isn't right
> on the top of the machine.
> Thanks for your input
> John
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com>
> *To:* rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Friday, June 08, 2012 3:28 PM
> *Subject:* Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 912 ULS Mystery
>
> John:
>
> Questions come to mind:
>
> 1. Was the engine overhauled?
> 2. Is the engine Factory New?
> 3. Did you check the service bulletin on the fuel pump fuel line?
> 4. Have you done a compression check?
> 5. Have you pulled the spark plugs immediately after the problem
> occurs?
> 6. Have you done a high voltage check on the spark plug wires for
> breakdown?
> 7. Since after the long taxi the problem occurs - Are you using AvGas?
> 8. Since after the long taxi the problem occurs - Are you seeing plug
> fouling?
> 9. Since after the long taxi the problem occurs - What color are the
> deposits on the exhaust pipe?
> 10. Vibration causes many a problem - You have the problem then
> you dismantle the cowling and look under the hood - Then the engine runs
> good - You shut down for the day - You re-assemble the cowling and ALL the
> items you touched - Then the next day the problem reoccurs - And if I have
> read correctly this is the procedure that you have followed and each time
> the problem came back? Sure points to something that is being moved and
> touched.
> 11. Where is the ignition system mounted? Mounting coils on the
> engine is not a good practice. Mounting near heat is not a good practice.
>
> OK - That is all I can think of right now.
>
> Good Luck,
> Barry
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c*
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Rotallxl 912 ULS Mystery |
Along that same line, I think the next thing I would try is a new spark
plug(s), pulling one at a time, check for hairline cracks around the
electrode and installing the 'new' plug in each position to hopefully
isolate the problem. Secondly, I would check my ignition wires, boots, etc.
I had a similar problem with a VW engine that had a hair-line crack in a
spark plug around the ceramic which could only been seen with a magnifying
glass. Cold engine would cause the crack in the plug to open up/fail. If I
got the engine running long enough to warm it, I guess the crack was closed
somewhat and the engine ran normal.
I hate it when engine problems are intermittent. Keep at it. You will
figure it out and we will have all learned something from sharing in your
experience.
Jack in Key West
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of R Holder
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2012 3:07 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rotallxl 912 ULS Mystery
On 08/06/2012 19:42, JohnF wrote:
> After a nice runup last evening; that is, nice mag drops (about 100 on
> each side) and static rpm around 5050, and engine running smoothing.
> This morning I took the plane out to fly...taxi to end of runway
> (about one mile) and did runup with oil temp 125-degrees F. Mag drop
> 330/360 - very untypical, and running rough. Static impossible to
> reach. Engine rpm decreased as throttle advanced past 4050 rpm or
> so....very rough...idle way too low...around 800 rpm.
> Experienced RV builder and local A&P got involved. We tried all sorts
> of things; like removing the air filters...no difference....sometimes,
> not always, if top cowling was removed engine ran fine...sometimes
> not.
> Nothing touches the cowl when it is on so nothing is interfering with
> the engine due to cowl on or off. Only air flow may be different.
> Reseated carbs after looking at the rubber ring they mount on...look
> OK..carbs secure. All controls smooth and move stop to stop.
> Because engine SOMETIME ran well with top cowling off, we put it on
> and taped the oil filler door open to see if increased air flow would
> make any difference...it did not.
> This is the third time the plane was just fine when put away and no
> good the following morning.
> Temperatures have been moderate....high 40's at night, low 80's mid
> day.
> Scat cooling from cowl to engine shroud secure and clear.
> Pulling electric fuel pump fuse with engine running lowered fuel
> pressure slightly but made no difference in poor operation....nor does
> it make a difference with the engine is running well.
> I am told that the definition of stupidity is doing the same thing
> over and over and expecting different results.
> I seem to be at that point now.
> 'Its still one giant mystery of intermittent good/bad operation.
> John
Idiot suggestion (idiot = me)
Have you checked that the plug leads are correctly positioned and you
haven't put a #1 plug cap on a #3 plug ?
Richard
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 ULS Mystery |
One of the Rotax gurus might shed some light on carburetor problem that
might cause these symptoms.
However, If plugs on both sides look dark from over rich operation it
seems unlikely that both carbs would act up at the same time unless maybe
there is a cross over tube issue.
I am out of my knowledege zone here so don't take these comments too
seriously
good luck
BJ
Kitfox IV early 912
> Barry, here are the answers to your questions.
>
> 1. Not overhauled
> 2. Factory new 86.4 hours total time
> 3. Service bulletin re pump hoses not applicable. I have just installed
> the new style fuel pump...after problems, reinstalled the old one...no
> help, put back on the new pump
> 4. Compression check? Yes..all cylinders within a psi of each other and
> all like factory new readings
> 5. Pulled plugs after problems? Yes, the first time, and regapped them
> from 0.023 to 0.027 per a suggestion from Roger Lee who is a real Rotax
> guru
> 6. Av gas"? NO 91octane auto fuel always been used...only once did I add
> 5-gallons of 100LL but that was some time ago when wx kept plane down
> longer than I wanted with autogas in it
> 7.Fouling? Yes...the problem is engine running WAY WAY too rich when it is
> acting up....brand new plugs, properly installed .. 10 minutes of running
> blackened them
> 8. Exhaust deposts...No
> 9. Ignition location? This one thing I really dislike about the Rotax; if
> you want to really get involved with the timing, and ignition you probably
> will have to remove the engine entirely
> Most of it is really buried beneath the myrid number of
> hoses....really difficult machine to service if what you need isn't
> right on the top of the machine.
> Thanks for your input
> John
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: FLYaDIVE
> To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Friday, June 08, 2012 3:28 PM
> Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 912 ULS Mystery
>
>
> John:
>
>
> Questions come to mind:
> 1.. Was the engine overhauled?
> 2.. Is the engine Factory New?
> 3.. Did you check the service bulletin on the fuel pump fuel line?
> 4.. Have you done a compression check?
> 5.. Have you pulled the spark plugs immediately after the problem
> occurs?
> 6.. Have you done a high voltage check on the spark plug wires for
> breakdown?
> 7.. Since after the long taxi the problem occurs - Are you using
> AvGas?
> 8.. Since after the long taxi the problem occurs - Are you seeing plug
> fouling?
> 9.. Since after the long taxi the problem occurs - What color are the
> deposits on the exhaust pipe?
> 10.. Vibration causes many a problem - You have the problem then you
> dismantle the cowling and look under the hood - Then the engine runs
> good - You shut down for the day - You re-assemble the cowling and ALL
> the items you touched - Then the next day the problem reoccurs - And
> if I have read correctly this is the procedure that you have followed
> and each time the problem came back? Sure points to something that is
> being moved and touched.
> 11.. Where is the ignition system mounted? Mounting coils on the
> engine is not a good practice. Mounting near heat is not a good
> practice.
> OK - That is all I can think of right now.
>
>
> Good Luck,
> Barry
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Strange Problem |
Check that all the spark plug wires are on the correct cylinder. Mine came in the
crate with two wires switched and I had the same problem of a big mag check
drop. It ran just fine with that situation otherwise.
--------
Ron Lee
Tucson, Arizona
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=375073#375073
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