Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:05 AM - Re: Rotax 9112 ULS Starter Oddity (Thom Riddle)
2. 06:10 AM - Re: Rotax 9112 ULS Starter Oddity (FLYaDIVE)
3. 06:35 AM - Re: Rotax 9112 ULS Starter Oddity (JohnF)
4. 07:00 AM - Re: Re: Rotax 9112 ULS Starter Oddity (David Weaver)
5. 09:12 AM - Rotax 912 UL - Re-starting Problem (Hugh McKay)
6. 10:00 AM - Re: Rotax 912 UL - Re-starting Problem (Bob Comperini)
7. 10:07 AM - Re: Rotax 912 UL - Re-starting Problem (Dave)
8. 10:10 AM - Re: Rotax 912 UL - Re-starting Problem (FLYaDIVE)
9. 11:04 AM - Starter Oddity (JohnF)
10. 01:42 PM - Re: Starter Oddity (FLYaDIVE)
11. 06:46 PM - Re: Rotax 9112 ULS Starter Oddity (Roger Lee)
12. 06:53 PM - Re: Rotax 912 UL - Re-starting Problem (Roger Lee)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 9112 ULS Starter Oddity |
JohnF,
You said that it occurred again when the battery was fully charged. Do you have
a volt meter in your airplane? If not, after fully charging the battery, before
you try starting it in the morning, disconnect the charger and put a multi-meter
(V-Ohm) meter on the battery to see what the actual voltage is.
For a 12 volt lead acid battery the charge states are indicated by the following
approximate voltages:
volts charge-state
12.7+ 100%
12.4 75%
12.2 50%
12.0 25%
11.8 0%
If your battery does not come up to at least 12.4 volts, it is probably ready for
replacement. To keep them in good shape, a battery tender should be used during
periods when the airplane is not flown often.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Diamond Katana DA20-A1
Rotax 912 F3
Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385032#385032
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 9112 ULS Starter Oddity |
JohnF:
As a follow up to Thom's suggestion:
Voltage checking will put you in the ball park but, you have to identify
the type of battery you are using. Is it a:
Wet Cell
Aircraft Wet Cell
Sealed Battery
Aircraft Sealed Battery
If it is a Wet Cell then the method of testing should be a Hydrometer.
They tell so much, even by just by looking at the color of
the electrolyte you can get information on the condition of the battery.
Clear is good - Brown is Bad.
Reading the Specific Gravity (SG) will tell you the charge.
Why do I mention Aircraft Battery Vs just Battery? Because the SG of the
electrolyte is different between the two. The Aircraft Battery has a
higher SG.
AND therefore a Higher Voltage if you use a voltmeter. With Aircraft you
could read a higher voltage while the condition (Amperage) of the battery
is poor. This is true for comparison between both batteries and even
types Wet Vs Sealed.
Next method of testing and probably the best is a load test.
Now, there are different types of load test equipment out there. You could
go with the old favorite Resistor Bank which puts a heavy duty load on the
battery and returns a meter reading of condition. They are big, bulky and
require a cool down between uses. And deplete the charge in the battery.
So after you check the battery you should re-charge the battery. OLD
SCHOOL but it does work.
New School - I have been very satisfied with a simple digital unit that is
offered by Harbor Freight that gives you Voltage, % of Life, Condition and
INTERNAL RESISTANCE. The internal resistance is very important. It tells
the condition and if the battery is capable of taking and holding a charge.
It also give you an idea of how many years you have left on the battery.
The idea of a battery tender is a great idea as long as you have AC at your
plane. If you are like me and are tied down without AC - You can still do
the battery tending with a Solar Panel. How big a solar panel? In this
case use the American Theory - Bigger is Better. I found a 5 Amp panel and
ordered a controller for it. Yes, you can over charge with a solar panel
if the current is high enough, ergo the controller. Mine hooks directly to
the battery through an all rubber trailer hitch plug & jack.
BUT! Perform the series of test I sent. As the saying goes: There are
no mechanics in a can. You just have to find and eliminate the problem
through procedure and dirty hands.
Barry
PS
I would rather get my hands dirty on a plane than a car. GAUD I hate cars.
All they have to do is get me to the plane and I have more problems with
them than planes. :-)
On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 12:43 PM, JohnF <n29cx@ridgeviewtel.us> wrote:
> **
> 117 hrs on the Rotax. No real problems but a few days ago when turning the
> start switch the starter did not engage, but seemed to "jam" and didn't
> turn. Upon retrying it engaged and started normally. I suspected a low
> battery, but overnight charging didn't change anything. This morning again
> with as fully charged battery it did the same thing, but started right up
> on second try.
>
> I tried to demonstrate this to two other pilots and everything was normal;
> prop turned over immediately with nothing abnormal happening on two
> consecutive starts.
>
> I seems (a wild guess) that the starter gear teeth are hitting, rather
> than meshing, with the engine.
>
> Not to sure what to make of this.
>
> John
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 9112 ULS Starter Oddity |
FlyaDive and Thom,
I have a hangar with power...will check battery terminal voltage and see
how it compares to Thom's data...I have thinking about this problem and
now lean toward thinking it MIGHT be the starter relay because of a
clicking-like sound when the problem arises. I plan to remove, clean
and re-tighten all connections from the battery to the starter relay and
then on to the starter itself...will do this today and report results.
Thanks for the help
John
----- Original Message -----
From: FLYaDIVE
To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 7:09 AM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rotax 9112 ULS Starter Oddity
JohnF:
As a follow up to Thom's suggestion:
Voltage checking will put you in the ball park but, you have to
identify the type of battery you are using. Is it a:
Wet Cell
Aircraft Wet Cell
Sealed Battery
Aircraft Sealed Battery
If it is a Wet Cell then the method of testing should be a Hydrometer.
They tell so much, even by just by looking at the color of the
electrolyte you can get information on the condition of the battery.
Clear is good - Brown is Bad.
Reading the Specific Gravity (SG) will tell you the charge.
Why do I mention Aircraft Battery Vs just Battery? Because the SG of
the electrolyte is different between the two. The Aircraft Battery has
a higher SG.
AND therefore a Higher Voltage if you use a voltmeter. With Aircraft
you could read a higher voltage while the condition (Amperage) of the
battery is poor. This is true for comparison between both batteries
and even types Wet Vs Sealed.
Next method of testing and probably the best is a load test.
Now, there are different types of load test equipment out there. You
could go with the old favorite Resistor Bank which puts a heavy duty
load on the battery and returns a meter reading of condition. They are
big, bulky and require a cool down between uses. And deplete the charge
in the battery. So after you check the battery you should re-charge the
battery. OLD SCHOOL but it does work.
New School - I have been very satisfied with a simple digital unit
that is offered by Harbor Freight that gives you Voltage, % of Life,
Condition and INTERNAL RESISTANCE. The internal resistance is very
important. It tells the condition and if the battery is capable of
taking and holding a charge. It also give you an idea of how many years
you have left on the battery.
The idea of a battery tender is a great idea as long as you have AC at
your plane. If you are like me and are tied down without AC - You can
still do the battery tending with a Solar Panel. How big a solar panel?
In this case use the American Theory - Bigger is Better. I found a 5
Amp panel and ordered a controller for it. Yes, you can over charge
with a solar panel if the current is high enough, ergo the controller.
Mine hooks directly to the battery through an all rubber trailer hitch
plug & jack.
BUT! Perform the series of test I sent. As the saying goes: There
are no mechanics in a can. You just have to find and eliminate the
problem through procedure and dirty hands.
Barry
PS
I would rather get my hands dirty on a plane than a car. GAUD I hate
cars. All they have to do is get me to the plane and I have more
problems with them than planes. :-)
On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 12:43 PM, JohnF <n29cx@ridgeviewtel.us> wrote:
117 hrs on the Rotax. No real problems but a few days ago when
turning the start switch the starter did not engage, but seemed to "jam"
and didn't turn. Upon retrying it engaged and started normally. I
suspected a low battery, but overnight charging didn't change anything.
This morning again with as fully charged battery it did the same thing,
but started right up on second try.
I tried to demonstrate this to two other pilots and everything was
normal; prop turned over immediately with nothing abnormal happening on
two consecutive starts.
I seems (a wild guess) that the starter gear teeth are hitting,
rather than meshing, with the engine.
Not to sure what to make of this.
John
ist"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 9112 ULS Starter Oddity |
You should also insure that there is only a minimal voltage drop offered by
battery cables and connectors.- Put a remote starter switch on the firew
all mounted starter solenoid so that you can manually operate the starter w
ith ignition off.- With a volt meter connected from starter input to grou
nd, monitor the actual voltage present at the starter input terminal during
cranking of engine.- 12-volt starters require a minimum of 9.0-9.5 vol
ts across the primary motor winding to avoid-"stall".- A connection tha
t is causing as much as .50 volt drop in a high current carrying circuit wi
ll also become hot to the touch (good idea to touch connectors as a practic
al test for high resistance connection).- The test just-described is co
mmonly used by competent automotive technicians, when diagnosing sluggish a
utomotive starters, prior to replacing either starter or battery.- To the
untrained observer, a starter motor in stall mode will send current toward
infinity and pull battery voltage down...often-resulting in misdiagnosis
.- The auto owner will often end up being told that both starter and batt
ery are defective!-
-
The Sky-Tec starter has greatly improved cold weather starting for my 912 U
L Rotax engine.- This starter is on steroids when I turn the ignition key
.- Last winter I made one ski trip to Bessemer in upper Michigan.-When
I-returned to the airport,-I had-no concerns about engine cranking sp
eed on engine start up.- The engine fired up immediately and I was on my
way for the return trip home.
Dave Weaver-
--- On Wed, 10/10/12, Thom Riddle <riddletr@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Thom Riddle <riddletr@gmail.com>
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Rotax 9112 ULS Starter Oddity
JohnF,
You said that it occurred again when the battery was fully charged. Do you
have a volt meter in your airplane? If not, after fully charging the batter
y, before you try starting it in the morning, disconnect the charger and pu
t a multi-meter (V-Ohm) meter on the battery to see what the actual voltage
is.
For a 12 volt lead acid battery the charge states are indicated by the foll
owing approximate voltages:
volts- ---charge-state
12.7+---100%
12.4- - ---75%
12.2- - ---50%
12.0- - ---25%
11.8- - - ---0%
If your battery does not come up to at least 12.4 volts, it is probably rea
dy for replacement. To keep them in good shape, a battery tender should be
used during periods when the airplane is not flown often.
--------
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Kolb Slingshot SS-021
Jabiru 2200A #1574
Diamond Katana DA20-A1
Rotax 912 F3
Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385032#385032
le, List Admin.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Rotax 912 UL - Re-starting Problem |
I have recently begun having a problem restarting my engine after
flying, landing and then doing a re-start. The engine is hot so I follow
the correct procedure of keeping the choke closed and cracking the
throttle. In the past I have had no problem on re-starting using this
method, but now the engine will try to start and it will run very rough
for some seconds (5 to 10 seconds), but then it quits. I repeat the
start, but the same thin occurs. If I let the engine sit for say 5 to 10
minutes and try again the engine will start as normal. This is occurring
every time I fly, land, cut the engine off, and then try to restart.
Every thing else is fine. I can=99t figure out what may be causing
this. Any suggestions?
Hugh G. McKay III, P.E.
Allegro 2000
Rotax 912 UL, 579 hours
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 UL - Re-starting Problem |
On 09:11 AM 10/10/2012, Hugh McKay wrote:
> Any suggestions?
Vapor lock?
--
Bob Comperini
e-mail: bob@fly-ul.com
WWW: http://www.fly-ul.com
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 UL - Re-starting Problem |
Check that the choke/enriching circuit is completely closed and check the pl
ug gaps.
Sent from my iPad
On Oct 10, 2012, at 11:11 AM, "Hugh McKay" <hgmckay@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> I have recently begun having a problem restarting my engine after flying, l
anding and then doing a re-start. The engine is hot so I follow the correct p
rocedure of keeping the choke closed and cracking the throttle. In the past I
have had no problem on re-starting using this method, but now the engine wi
ll try to start and it will run very rough for some seconds (5 to 10 seconds
), but then it quits. I repeat the start, but the same thin occurs. If I let
the engine sit for say 5 to 10 minutes and try again the engine will start a
s normal. This is occurring every time I fly, land, cut the engine off, and t
hen try to restart. Every thing else is fine. I can=99t figure out wha
t may be causing this. Any suggestions?
>
> Hugh G. McKay III, P.E.
> Allegro 2000
> Rotax 912 UL, 579 hours
> <Hugh.vcf>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 UL - Re-starting Problem |
Hugh:
What is your definition of a 'choke closed'?
Once an engine is warmed up - hot. You do not close the choke... Choke
should be open to allow max air flow. Choking an engine adds more fuel
than air.
One method to prove this would be to inspect your spark plugs to see if
they are WET next time you have this issue. If wet, then there is more
fuel that the combustion process requires.
Barry
On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 12:11 PM, Hugh McKay <hgmckay@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> I have recently begun having a problem restarting my engine after
> flying, landing and then doing a re-start. The engine is hot so I follow
> the correct procedure of keeping the choke closed and cracking the
> throttle. In the past I have had no problem on re-starting using this
> method, but now the engine will try to start and it will run very rough f
or
> some seconds (5 to 10 seconds), but then it quits. I repeat the start, bu
t
> the same thin occurs. If I let the engine sit for say 5 to 10 minutes and
> try again the engine will start as normal. This is occurring every time I
> fly, land, cut the engine off, and then try to restart. Every thing else
is
> fine. I can=92t figure out what may be causing this. Any suggestions?
>
> Hugh G. McKay III, P.E.
> Allegro 2000
> Rotax 912 UL, 579 hours
>
Message 9
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I did my best to insure good contact on all points from battery to
starter. The RV-12 that this Rotax 912 ULS is installed in is incredibly
difficult to get at things aft of the engine...no room for even your
hands in most cases unless you want to physically pull the engine - not
a pleasant prospect.
I found nothing suspicious excent that my cheapo digital multimete shows
battery terminal voltage well over 14 volts, so I am disregarding that
reading...
After doing what I could about terminal condition I tried the starter
without any ignition turned on. I did 10 prop starts and stops with no
abnormal outcomes. I waited a while and did another 10, again no
problems. I again waited a while and did another 10 and still no
problems. (Battery seemed very strong during this effort)
I hate intermittent problems; I know they always come back to bite you.
For now I am going to leave things alone and see what turns up.
Will post outcome.
John
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Starter Oddity |
John:
Doing voltage checks with a meter that you are not comfortable with or that
reads incorrect is a waste of time. Get a second meter of a different
brand and compare the two. Use a simple NEW 1.5 VDC (D Cell) and see what
that reads, then stack 8 D Cells and verify the meter accuracy (1.5 V x 8
12V).
Doing your 10 prop starts is totally useless, SINCE there is a
strong possibility the problem is your Starter Relay. As I mentioned
before repeated starts burns off or knocks off carbon on the contacts and
give a FALSE - Positive.
Here is a test for that:
1 - REMOVE the wire TO the starter.
2 - Close the switch so the Starter Relay is engaged. {DO
NOT DISENGAGE THE STARTER SWITCH ONCE YOU START THIS TEST}
3 - Read the Voltage across (INPUT to OUTPUT) the Starter Relay [INPUT to
Ground... OUTPUT to Ground] - It should read the SAME as the Voltage going
INTO (INPUT) the Starter Relay.
4 - Next with the Starter RELAY still closed {DO NOT DISENGAGE THE STARTER
SWITCH ONCE YOU START THIS TEST}
Read the Voltage ACROSS the Starter Relay - It should Read ZERO VOLTS. Any
voltage means REPLACE the starter.
5 - A variation on the above test - With the Starter Relay STILL closed
- {DO NOT DISENGAGE THE STARTER SWITCH ONCE YOU START THIS TEST} Read the
RESISTANCE across the INPUT to OUTPUT terminals of the Starter Relay. - It
should read ZERO OHMS on the LOWEST SCALE. ALSO - - - ZERO out the meter
resistance OR subtract the meter resistance from your reading. Anything
between 0 and 0.1 Ohms accept... ANYTHING OVER that - Replace the Starter
Relay.
John, if yo would like to add pictures please do so - They Help!
Barry
On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 2:03 PM, JohnF <n29cx@ridgeviewtel.us> wrote:
> **
> I did my best to insure good contact on all points from battery to
> starter. The RV-12 that this Rotax 912 ULS is installed in is incredibly
> difficult to get at things aft of the engine...no room for even your hands
> in most cases unless you want to physically pull the engine - not a
> pleasant prospect.
>
> I found nothing suspicious excent that my cheapo digital multimete shows
> battery terminal voltage well over 14 volts, so I am disregarding that
> reading...
>
> After doing what I could about terminal condition I tried the starter
> without any ignition turned on. I did 10 prop starts and stops with no
> abnormal outcomes. I waited a while and did another 10, again no problems.
> I again waited a while and did another 10 and still no problems. (Battery
> seemed very strong during this effort)
>
> I hate intermittent problems; I know they always come back to bite you.
> For now I am going to leave things alone and see what turns up.
>
> Will post outcome.
>
> John
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 9112 ULS Starter Oddity |
A poor ground and or corrosion will also cause this. Of course a bad relay too.
Do the cheap things first.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385087#385087
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax 912 UL - Re-starting Problem |
Hi Hugh,
Make sure the float level in the carbs are at 10.5mm in height from the outside
edge of the carb. When were the carbs last rebuilt? If it is over 5 years regardless
of hours you may want to do an overhaul. Check the floats and make sure
one isn't sinking (flooding) under pressure right after you stop. Plug gap between
.023 - .027 and not over 75 hours old. new fuel pump or old? Do you have
a fuel re-circulation line?
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=385088#385088
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