---------------------------------------------------------- RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 10/31/12: 4 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:16 AM - Re: Pre-oiling 912ULS (FLYaDIVE) 2. 05:03 PM - Re: Pre-oiling 912ULS (Jim Clayton) 3. 05:07 PM - Spare 912ULS oil tank? (Jim Clayton) 4. 05:34 PM - Re: Pre-oiling 912ULS (Gerry Visel) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:16:29 AM PST US Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Pre-oiling 912ULS From: FLYaDIVE Jim: Sorry for the delay in responding, I'm in NJ and we lost power for the last day or so. HEY :-) Really great contraption. I love your set up. You have just done a better job of oiling than Rotax ever would. The idea of the sight tube (Egyptian Water Level) for oil level is a great idea. Now you now know exactly the level oil and what was covered. Good Job Old Man. Now, don't be surprised if you make a lot of smoke on your first start up. It will last only a few seconds and only those outside the plane will notice IF they pay attention. The prop blast will disperse things rapidly. Getting oil to the gears is the next big issue. Lots of moving parts and lots of metal on metal contact areas. If you were to: 1 - Remove the spark plugs. 2 - Ground the Mags. 3 - Totally flood the gear area - AND - 4 - Then turn the engine over by hand or with a heavy duty 1/2" Electric Drill. You will have covered all bases and will have that Totally Warm Fuzzy Feeling. 5 - You could also squirt some oil in the cylinders prior to turning over the engine by hand. The only really rough Metal on Metal area is the rings and cylinder - Extra oil there worn hurt. Great Job - Keep us informed. Barry On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 6:56 PM, Jim Clayton wrote: > Hi Barry,**** > > ** ** > > Thanks for the confirmation regarding a possibly dry engine being rotated > to introduce oil. Your pvc pre-oiler is really cool! Thanks for the pic s. > **** > > ** ** > > I purchased the engine around 2005. I peeled back the plastic, took a > bunch of pictures and rewrapped it tightly sealing the plastic and > reassembled the crate. The crate lived the next 7 plus years in my spare > bedroom, temperature controlled. Fast forward to last week. I opened it > and pulled the engine out of the crate. Close inspection showed the engi ne > was still externally slightly oily, and the crankcase has remnants of the > oil used during the test run at the factory. All good news I think.**** > > ** ** > > After much consideration I decided to inject oil into the pressure sender > port. As was confirmed by this list=92s experts the oil pump is a positi ve > displacement type (no surprise) so I needed to inject oil upstream of the > pump if I desire gallery oil pressure without turning. I didn=92t inject at > the pressure regulator as suggested cause I didn=92t have ready access to the > metric fitting holding the spring, and I wasn=92t sure if I would simply vent > oil directly to the crankcase bypassing the gallery if I took the regulat or > apart. So I went with the pressure sensor port.**** > > ** ** > > I removed the pressure sender and fed it oil (semi-syn motorcycle > formulation since it will touch the wet clutch in the gearbox) at 40 to > 55psi from a 12 volt pump. Added a tee in the pipe and 6 feet of sealed > tubing (see pic) to act as a pressure accumulator so the pump doesn=92t > chatter. Worked out to 3 seconds of pump runtime to 12 seconds of > resting. After running all day the pump wasn=92t even warm. I opened th e > valve covers and saw oil coming out the pushrods, confirming the oil > gallery is pressurized.**** > > ** ** > > Next I raised the drain line to trap oil in the engine (see pic), and use d > it as a sight glass to predict the level in the crankcase. The level was > also high enough to submerge the bottom passage to the gearbox (see pic o f > open gearbox from the servicing class). Then I leaned the engine left an d > right, forward and back to submerge the pistons/pins and slosh oil around > in the gearbox. Drained the crankcase, put a couple of tablespoon of oil > into each sparkplug hole. Finally, after hours of oil circulation I turn ed > the engine over, plugs still out. **** > > ** ** > > Note I was using a clean bucket for the oil supply. I seem to have > misplaced my oil tank. I will look around for it a little longer before I > worry about buying another!**** > > ** ** > > I offer this only for entertainment purposes and don=92t suggest anyone > perform this procedure without approval from your Rotax dealer. My engin e > is long out of warranty and I alone am responsible for the outcome. I > intend to keep the engine in this oiling regime until I am ready to start > it; at which time I will purge the system and confirm lifter status per t he > Rotax procedure. **** > > ** ** > > -Jim**** > > --- On *Sun, 10/28/12, FLYaDIVE * wrote: > > > From: FLYaDIVE > Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Pre-oiling 912ULS > To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com > Date: Sunday, October 28, 2012, 6:37 AM > > Jim: > > As they say your idea is Spot On. The entire idea of Pre-Oiling is to > saturate and cover all the rotating parts PRIOR to rotating the the engin e. > To rotate the engine prior to pre-oiling or during pre-oiling is counter > productive. > > Since your engine is from 2005 the two questions that come up are: > 1 - Where was the engine stored, was it kept in a low humidity area? > 2 - Was the engine 'pickled', that is to say - Oiled with > a preservative oil that does not run off the engine areas? > > When it comes to 'pickling' a little research has to be done: > 1 - Does Rotax make a storage oil? If so use it. > 2 - If Rotax does NOT make a storage oil, use any storage oil you can > obtain. Remember you are NOT running on this oil ONLY storing with it. > Yes - You do run the engine for a short time just to coat the insides of > the engine BUT, that is a SHORT TIME and it is WITHOUT LOADS. > > Special Note: Take a look at Page 8 - 2 Para 8.2 > It states that preservation is for only one year and if stored for more > than one year the preservation procedure should be repeated every year. > Have you been doing that? > If not - Start with that procedure prior to Pre-Oiling. > Why do i say that? Only because Pre-Oiling takes care of the engine NOT > the gearbox gears. Do everything you can to get those gears wet with oil - > SHORT of rotating them - Without oil. > So, how should you Pre-Oil? > 1 - Take a look at the manual - Page 7-6 Figure 3 . > 2 - Notice the Oil Flow Direction. It goes OUT of the Oil Cooler (item 5 ) > - Into the Engine - Out of the engine and into the Oil Tank (item 4). > 3 - I do not know if the picture I attached will get through. If it does > not contact me directly and I will send it directly to you. > 4 - This picture is of a Pre-Oiler I made. It can handle oil pressure up > to 150 PSI. YOU pick the oil pressure your engine operates at and Pre-Oi l > at that pressure. > 5 - Use the engine operating pressure so any valves will be opened by the > pressure and the oil spray will cover the same areas as during normal > operation. > 6 - Since the engine has an Oil Pressure Regulator (item 1), you should > pressure the pre-oiler higher than operating pressure and because the > pressure drops in the pre-oilier quickly as volume of oil drops. > 7 - Monitor the Oil Pressure Gauge of the plane/engine, since the Oil > Pressure Sensor (item 2) is hooked up. There will probably be only a sma ll > deflection since the pre-oilier is applying pressure for only a short tim e. > 8 - Now, here I have to ask a question. Does the Oil Pump (item 3) have a > reverse flow check valve? If YES then you are limited to pre-oilier flow > direction. > If NO then - Use the Pre-Oilier in BOTH directions - The IN and the OUT. > 9 - When I Pre-Oil, it is done with one (1) quart of oil in each directio n > - From the Oil Cooler into the Engine and then Into the Engine on the > OUTPUT side of the Engine. See note 8. > 10 - Now, here you have some options: > a> You can leave the Oil Tank (item 4) attached and it will catch any oil > that makes it to the exit of the engine. And remember to hook up a > overflow tube to Vent Tube (item 7). I really doubt if this will ever > happen, or... > b> Put a Plug on the Engine Exit line/hose so it develops a good pressure > to spray the oil all around inside the engine. > > The Pictures: > Pic #1 is a general overview > Pic #2 shows the fittings. One thing you can not see is the inside of th e > unit. From the oil line on the outside is a nylon pick-up tube that goes > to the bottom of the unit. > You will see a Shrader valve on top. I hook up a 12VDC portable tire > pump. Pressurize the unit to 125 PSI, you can leave the tire pump on and > running when you open the valve. > > This system is so easy that I pre-oil anytime the engine sits for a month > or more. > > Barry > > On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 5:13 PM, Jim Clayton > > wrote: > tp://mc/compose?to=jspc78@yahoo.com> > > > > Greetings all: > > I looked in the archives and didn't see an answer so here goes: > > I have a 912ULS, in the crate I bought it in 2005. I just unwrapped it > and would like to pressurize the oil system with engine oil since the > engine has been sitting so long and I am very concerned about roating the > engine (dry) to get the internal pump to move oil. I have a 12 volt oil > pump, return tank and accessories to accomplish this, however I have a > question: > > Can I simply feed the oil pump inlet hose-barb with oil pressure to > circulate oil throughout the gallery? I am concerned the pump will not > pass oil if the engine is not turning. > > Alternately I could remove the pressure sender and feed the gallery from > there unless there is some reason not to. My preference is to feed throu gh > the larger oil pump inlet in the hipe of greater flow through the gallery .. > > I plan to return the oil by draining the crankcase through the return > hosebarb and back into the return tank. > > Any thoughts or suggestions to circulate oil through my engine? > > Thanks, Jim > > Kolb Mark3X > 912ULS > 80% completed > > ========== > -List" target="_blank"> > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List > ========== > http://forums.matronics.com > ========== > le, List Admin. > ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:03:26 PM PST US From: Jim Clayton Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Pre-oiling 912ULS Hi Barry/All: Thanks! =C2-I am running the pump 30 minutes a day so the overkill makes me feel better about storing the engine for so long :-) I agree with respect to the gearbox. =C2-While I did lean the engine forw ard while the crankcase was full, I am concerned about the big bearings on the prop shaft. =C2-I was thinking of again removing the fuel pump, putti ng a couple of pints of oil in, and closing it up. =C2-Then with several helpers turning the engine upside down. =C2-This would trap oil at the=C2 -prop-shaft=C2-end. =C2-Leave it=C2-upside down=C2-for perhaps a couple of hours to marinate two big bearings. =C2-Looking at the photos I took in the servicing class, I suspect those bearings need a bit of splash to keep those two lubed. =C2-I figure an hour or so marinating maybe soa k in enough oil to suffice. =C2-Once done I will turn it right side up, a nd allow all the oil to drain. I am several months from mounting the engine on the plane, so this system w ill stay in place awhile. =C2-Wish I could find the oil tank as the open bucket has to go. =C2-I will post=C2-separately=C2-asking if anyone h as a spare oil tank (I know...not likely). -Jim --- On Wed, 10/31/12, FLYaDIVE wrote: From: FLYaDIVE Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Pre-oiling 912ULS Jim: Sorry for the delay in responding, I'm in NJ and we lost power for the last day or so. =C2- =0AHEY =C2-:-) =C2-Really great contraption. =C2-I love your set up. =C2-You have just done a better job of oiling than Rotax ever would. =C2 -The idea of the sight tube (Egyptian Water Level) for oil level is a gre at idea. =C2-Now you now know=C2-exactly=C2-the level oil and what wa s covered. =C2-Good Job Old Man.=0A Now, don't be surprised if you make a lot of smoke on your first start up. =C2-It will last only a few seconds and only those outside the plane will notice IF they pay attention. =C2-The prop blast will disperse things ra pidly.=0A Getting oil to the gears is the next big issue. =C2-Lots of moving parts and lots of metal on metal contact areas. =C2-If you were to:1 - Remove t he spark plugs.=0A2 - Ground the Mags.3 - Totally flood the gear area - AND =C2--=C2-4 - Then turn the engine over by hand or with a heavy duty 1/ 2" Electric Drill.=0AYou will have covered all bases and will have that Tot ally Warm Fuzzy Feeling.5 - You could also squirt some oil in the cylinders prior to turning over the engine by hand. =C2-=0AThe only really rough M etal on Metal area is the rings and cylinder - Extra oil there worn hurt. Great Job - Keep us informed.=0A Barry On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 6:56 PM, Jim Clayton wrote: =0A=0AHi Barry,=0A=0A=C2-=0A=0AThanks for the confirmation regarding a po ssibly dry engine=0Abeing rotated to introduce oil.=C2- Your pvc=0Apre-oi ler is really cool!=C2- Thanks for the=0Apics.=0A=0A=C2-=0A=0AI purchas ed the engine around 2005.=C2- I peeled back the plastic, took a bunch of =0Apictures and rewrapped it tightly sealing the plastic and reassembled th e crate.=C2- The crate lived the next 7 plus years in my=0Aspare bedroom, temperature controlled.=C2-=0AFast forward to last week.=C2- I=0Aopene d it and pulled the engine out of the crate.=C2- Close inspection showed the engine was still=0Aexternally slightly oily, and the crankcase has remn ants of the oil used during=0Athe test run at the factory.=C2- All good =0Anews I think.=0A=0A=C2-=0A=0AAfter much consideration I decided to inj ect oil into the=0Apressure sender port.=C2- As was confirmed=0Aby this l ist=99s experts the oil pump is a positive displacement type (no=0Asu rprise) so I needed to inject oil upstream of the pump if I desire gallery =0Aoil pressure without turning.=C2- I didn=99t=0Ainject at the pre ssure regulator as suggested cause I didn=99t have ready access=0Ato the metric fitting holding the spring, and I wasn=99t sure if I would simply=0Avent oil directly to the crankcase bypassing the gallery if I too k the=0Aregulator apart.=C2- So I went with the=0Apressure sensor port. =0A=0A=C2-=0A=0AI removed the pressure sender and fed it oil (semi-syn=0A motorcycle formulation since it will touch the wet clutch in the gearbox) a t 40=0Ato 55psi from a 12 volt pump.=C2- Added a=0Atee in the pipe and 6 feet of sealed tubing (see pic) to act as a pressure accumulator=0Aso the p ump doesn=99t chatter.=C2- Worked out=0Ato 3 seconds of pump runtim e to 12 seconds of resting.=C2- After running all day the pump wasn =99t even=0Awarm.=C2- I opened the valve covers and saw=0Aoil coming out the pushrods, confirming the oil gallery is pressurized.=0A=0A=C2-=0A=0AN ext I raised the drain line to trap oil in the engine (see=0Apic), and used it as a sight glass to predict the level in the crankcase.=C2- The level was also high enough to submerge=0Athe bottom passage to the gearbox (see pic of open gearbox from the servicing=0Aclass).=C2- Then I leaned the en gine left=0Aand right, forward and back to submerge the pistons/pins and sl osh oil around=0Ain the gearbox.=C2- Drained the crankcase,=0Aput a coupl e of tablespoon of oil into each sparkplug hole.=C2- Finally, after hours of oil circulation I=0Aturned the engine over, plugs still out.=C2-=0A =0A=0A=C2-=0A=0ANote I was using a clean bucket for the oil supply.=C2- I seem to have misplaced my oil tank.=C2- I will look around for it a li ttle longer=0Abefore I worry about buying another!=0A=0A=C2-=0A=0AI offer this only for entertainment purposes and don=99t=0Asuggest anyone pe rform this procedure without approval from your Rotax=0Adealer.=C2- My en gine is long out of=0Awarranty and I alone am responsible for the outcome. =C2- I intend to keep the engine in this oiling regime=0Auntil I am ready to start it; at which time I will purge the system and confirm=0Alifter st atus per the Rotax procedure. =0A=0A=C2-=0A=0A-Jim --- On Sun, 10/28/12, FLYaDIVE wrote: =0A From: FLYaDIVE Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Pre-oiling 912ULS =0ADate: Sunday, October 28, 2012, 6:37 AM Jim: As they say your idea is Spot On. =C2-The=C2-entire=C2-idea of Pre-Oi ling is to saturate and cover all the rotating parts PRIOR to rotating the the engine. =C2-To rotate the engine prior to pre-oiling or during pre-oi ling is counter productive. =C2-=0A=0A=0A Since your engine is from 2005 the two questions that come up are:1 - Where was the engine stored, was it kept in a low humidity area?=0A=0A=0A2 - Was the engine 'pickled', that is to say - Oiled with a=C2-preservative=C2 -oil that does not run off the engine areas? When it comes to 'pickling' a little research has to be done:=0A=0A=0A1 - D oes Rotax make a storage oil? =C2-If so use it.2 - If Rotax does NOT make a storage oil, use any storage oil you can obtain. =C2-Remember you are NOT running on this oil ONLY storing with it. =C2-=0A=0A=0AYes - You do r un the engine for a short time just to coat the insides of the engine BUT, that is a SHORT TIME and it is WITHOUT LOADS. Special Note: =C2-Take a look at Page 8 - 2 Para 8.2=0A=0A=0AIt states th at=C2-preservation=C2-is for only one year and if stored for more than one year the=C2-preservation=C2-procedure should be repeated every year . =C2-Have you been doing that?=0A=0A=0AIf not - Start with that procedur e prior to Pre-Oiling.Why do i say that? =C2-Only because Pre-Oiling take s care of the engine NOT the gearbox gears. =C2-Do everything you can to get those gears wet with oil - SHORT of rotating them - Without oil.=0A=0A =0ASo, how should you Pre-Oil?1 - Take a look at the manual - Page 7-6 Figu re 3 .2 - Notice the Oil Flow Direction. =C2-It goes OUT of the Oil Coole r (item 5) - Into the Engine - Out of the engine and into the Oil Tank (ite m 4).=0A=0A=0A3 - I do not know if the picture I attached will get through. =C2-If it does not contact me directly and I will send it directly to yo u.4 - This picture is of a Pre-Oiler I made. =C2-It can handle oil pressu re up to 150 PSI. =C2-YOU pick the oil pressure your engine operates at a nd Pre-Oil at that pressure. =C2-=0A=0A=0A5 - Use the engine operating pr essure so any valves will be opened by the pressure and the oil spray will cover the same areas as during normal operation.6 - Since the engine has an Oil Pressure Regulator (item 1), you should pressure the pre-oiler higher than operating pressure and because the pressure drops in the pre-oilier=C2 -quickly as volume of oil drops.=0A=0A=0A7 - Monitor the Oil Pressure Gau ge of the plane/engine, since the Oil Pressure Sensor (item 2) is hooked up . =C2-There will probably be only a small deflection since the pre-oilier =C2-is applying pressure for only a short time.=0A=0A=0A8 - Now, here I h ave to ask a question. =C2-Does the Oil Pump (item 3) have a reverse flow check valve? =C2-If YES then you are limited to pre-oilier flow directio n.=C2-If NO then - Use the Pre-Oilier=C2-in BOTH directions - The IN an d the OUT.=0A=0A=0A9 - When I Pre-Oil, it is done with one (1) quart of oil in each direction - From the Oil Cooler into the Engine and then Into the Engine on the OUTPUT side of the Engine. =C2-See note 8. =C2-=0A=0A=0A1 0 - Now, here you have some options: =C2-a> You can leave the Oil Tank (i tem 4) attached and it will catch any oil that makes it to the exit of the engine. =C2-And remember to hook up a overflow tube to Vent Tube (item 7) . =C2-I really doubt if this will ever happen, or...=0A=0A=0Ab> Put a Plu g on the Engine Exit line/hose so it develops a good pressure to spray the oil all around inside the engine. The Pictures:=0A=0APic #1 is a general overview=C2-Pic #2 shows the fitti ngs. =C2-One thing you can not see is the inside of the unit. =C2-From the oil line on the outside is a nylon pick-up tube that goes to the bottom of the unit.=0A=0AYou will see a Shrader valve on top. =C2-I hook up a 1 2VDC portable=C2-tire pump. =C2-Pressurize the unit to 125 PSI, you can leave the tire pump on and running when you open the valve. =C2- =0A=0AThis system is so easy that I pre-oil anytime the engine sits for a m onth or more.=0A Barry On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 5:13 PM, Jim Clayton wrote: .com> =0A=0A=0A=0A =0AGreetings all: =0A =0AI looked in the archives and didn't see an answer so here goes: =0A =0AI have a 912ULS, in the crate I bought it in 2005. =C2-I just unwrappe d it and would like to pressurize the oil system with engine oil since the engine has been sitting so long and I am very concerned about roating the e ngine (dry) to get the internal pump to move oil. =C2-I have a 12 volt oi l pump, return tank and accessories to accomplish this, however I have a qu estion: =0A=0A=0A=0A =0ACan I simply feed the oil pump inlet hose-barb with oil pressure to circ ulate oil throughout the gallery? =C2-I am concerned the pump will not pa ss oil if the engine is not turning. =0A =0AAlternately I could remove the pressure sender and feed the gallery from there unless there is some reason not to. =C2-My preference is to feed t hrough the larger oil pump inlet in the hipe of greater flow through the ga llery. =0A=0A=0A=0A =0AI plan to return the oil by draining the crankcase through the return ho sebarb and back into the return tank. =0A =0AAny thoughts or suggestions to circulate oil through my engine? =0A =0AThanks, Jim =0A =0AKolb Mark3X =0A912ULS =0A80% completed =0A =0A========== =0A-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines -List =0A========== =0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com =0A========== =0Ale, List Admin. =0A="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =0A========== =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A ========================0A=0A ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:07:21 PM PST US From: Jim Clayton Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Spare 912ULS oil tank? Greetings, Does anyone have a spare oil tank they would be interested in selling/renting/loaning? I will use it for my ground oiling scheme as detailed in other posts, and hope/expect to replace it with the original once I find it after 7 years of storage. Thanks, Jim Kolb Mark 3 Xtra 912ULS Building, 90% California, Bay Area. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:34:56 PM PST US Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Pre-oiling 912ULS From: Gerry Visel Jim, I've been following your re-oiling saga from the first, and really can't quite figure out what you are trying to accomplish. You preserve an engine or other metal part by giving it a coat of oil to keep water off the metal, to keep it from rusting. Periodic re-coating renews this protection. I assume you have the preservation spec from Rotax? Extended soaking metal in oil does nothing for its long term wear characteristics, as the oil does not "soak into" the metal. We used to use metal containers to hold oil because they are impervious to the oil. If your gears or bearings have rusted, no amount of oiling is going to remove the rust. Much better to maybe just open it up and look to see if you actually have rust, and remove it chemically or replace the parts. Or if parts are seized, remove the dried oil with a solvent. Or am I missing something? (I could see maybe soaking a dried out seal in the hopes of reviving it, but again, I'd just figure on replacing them if they leak.) Gerry Visel (ex-gearbox engineer for 30+ years, but now doing high tech toilets!) On Wed, 2012-10-31 at 17:02 -0700, Jim Clayton wrote: > Hi Barry/All: > > Thanks! I am running the pump 30 minutes a day so the overkill makes > me feel better about storing the engine for so long :-) > > I agree with respect to the gearbox. While I did lean the engine > forward while the crankcase was full, I am concerned about the big > bearings on the prop shaft. I was thinking of again removing the fuel > pump, putting a couple of pints of oil in, and closing it up. Then > with several helpers turning the engine upside down. This would trap > oil at the prop-shaft end. Leave it upside down for perhaps a couple > of hours to marinate two big bearings. Looking at the photos I took > in the servicing class, I suspect those bearings need a bit of splash > to keep those two lubed. I figure an hour or so marinating maybe soak > in enough oil to suffice. Once done I will turn it right side up, and > allow all the oil to drain. > > I am several months from mounting the engine on the plane, so this > system will stay in place awhile. Wish I could find the oil tank as > the open bucket has to go. I will post separately asking if anyone > has a spare oil tank (I know...not likely). > > -Jim ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rotaxengines-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RotaxEngines-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rotaxengines-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.