Today's Message Index:
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1. 12:50 AM - Re: Alternate Fuel for 914 (David Joyce)
2. 06:11 AM - Re: Alternate Fuel for 914 (Roger Lee)
3. 08:38 AM - Re: Re: Alternate Fuel for 914 (Peter Jeffers)
4. 08:58 AM - Re: Re: Alternate Fuel for 914 (Robert Borger)
5. 02:05 PM - Re: Alternate Fuel for 914 (Alan Carter)
6. 02:39 PM - Re: Re: Alternate Fuel for 914 (David Joyce)
7. 02:44 PM - Re: Re: Alternate Fuel for 914 (Robert Borger)
8. 02:52 PM - Re: Re: Alternate Fuel for 914 (Robert Borger)
9. 05:07 PM - Re: Alternate Fuel for 914 (Roger Lee)
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| Subject: | Re: Alternate Fuel for 914 |
I have flown my 914 powered Europa all round Europe
(around 30 countries) using Mogas. In Austria & Germany
where Rotax engines are especially common something like
half of all airfields have Mogas on sale. Always use the
lower grade version rather Han the super grade. Regards,
David Joyce
On Thu, 17 Jan 2013 16:44:26 -0800
"AmphibFlyer" <SeaRey@AbstractConcreteWorks.com> wrote:
><SeaRey@AbstractConcreteWorks.com>
>
> Does anyone know whether it's feasible to operate a
>Rotax 914 on regular-grade MOGAS in countries where
>premium and 100LL are not available? (I know that Rotax
>specifies 91 octane or better.)
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392547#392547
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| Subject: | Re: Alternate Fuel for 914 |
Be careful with the term Mogas. It usually means auto fuel for aviation and has
nothing to do with the octane rating. Most airports that carry Mogas in the US
use 87 Oct., but some have up to 93.
87 could easily cause detonation in a 914 or 912ULS. I have seen the damage a couple
of times and it happens so quick there is no saving the engine and it is
quite expensive. The 912UL is good with 87 oct.
This all boils down to the compression ratio between the 912UL verses the compression
in the 914 and 912ULS.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392567#392567
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| Subject: | Re: Alternate Fuel for 914 |
Roger,
I note your comments re octane rating and Mogas. I thought the compression
ratio of the 912ul is the same as the 914. Only the 912s is different, ie
higher.
Pete Jeffers
<http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392567&sid=5307ef2c032b6d66175f
4acb80b18897#392567> PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:09 am Post subject:
Re: Alternate Fuel for 914
<http://forums.matronics.com/posting.php?mode=quote&p=392567&sid=5307ef2c032
b6d66175f4acb80b18897> Reply with quote
_____
Be careful with the term Mogas. It usually means auto fuel for aviation and
has nothing to do with the octane rating. Most airports that carry Mogas in
the US use 87 Oct., but some have up to 93.
87 could easily cause detonation in a 914 or 912ULS. I have seen the damage
a couple of times and it happens so quick there is no saving the engine and
it is quite expensive. The 912UL is good with 87 oct.
This all boils down to the compression ratio between the 912UL verses the
compression in the 914 and 912ULS.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Lee
Sent: 18 January 2013 04:04
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Alternate Fuel for 914
91 oct. or higher or 100LL is the only choice. Use of 87 Oct will cause
damage to the engine. If you have planes in a country seems like they should
have at least 100LL.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392558#392558
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| Subject: | Re: Alternate Fuel for 914 |
Pete,
The turbo crams more air into the cylinder and the air is compressed so it's hot
air. The combination of a greater volume of hot air makes the effective compression
ratio much higher than it would appear from just looking at the swept
volume of the cylinder divided by unswept volume. Also, because the air is compressed
and hot, this further enhances the chances for detonation. You MUST
use high octane fuel, minimum 91 octane or higher. You do not want to encounter
detonation in that expensive 914 as it will destroy the engine very quickly.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger@mac.com
On Jan 18, 2013, at 10:38 AM, Peter Jeffers <pjeffers@talktalk.net> wrote:
Roger,
I note your comments re octane rating and Mogas. I thought the compression ratio
of the 912ul is the same as the 914. Only the 912s is different, ie higher.
Pete Jeffers
<image001.gif>Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:09 am Post subject: Re: Alternate Fuel
for 914
<image002.gif>
Be careful with the term Mogas. It usually means auto fuel for aviation and has
nothing to do with the octane rating. Most airports that carry Mogas in the US
use 87 Oct., but some have up to 93.
87 could easily cause detonation in a 914 or 912ULS. I have seen the damage a couple
of times and it happens so quick there is no saving the engine and it is
quite expensive. The 912UL is good with 87 oct.
This all boils down to the compression ratio between the 912UL verses the compression
in the 914 and 912ULS.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roger Lee
Sent: 18 January 2013 04:04
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Alternate Fuel for 914
91 oct. or higher or 100LL is the only choice. Use of 87 Oct will cause damage
to the engine. If you have planes in a country seems like they should have at
least 100LL.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392558#392558
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| Subject: | Re: Alternate Fuel for 914 |
Hello Roger,Peter,and All.
I turn the key on my car and it starts, turn the key on a Cessna 150 and it starts,
i use to flip the switch on 4 jet engines and they started.
I keep being told how good the Rotax engine is but it always seems to have problems.!!!
This dreaded Detonation and kicking back seems to cause havoc on Rotax engines,Sprag
clutches, Soft Starts, Oversized Starters,Fuels,ete.
Is cold weather i have a fully charged battery plus hook up to my motor cycle battery
as well, i am using Mogas super think it about 91,yet i get this dreaded
kicking back, i have seen the propeller oscillate it knocks hell out of the
engine. My point is this should not be happening why was it not sorted out by
Rotax long ago.
I guess a high spin rate and power enough to give engine no choice in the direction
its going to turn.
We have Super plus in the UK think its about 94 or 96,Octane, and think also has
NO ethanol. However the CAA have dreamed up something about vapour locking,
probable some bod has read about vapour locking but i bet there's never been any
actual tests carried out.
Its about -5 at the moment bloody cold. Vapour more like freezing of the fuel,
really have no idea of the temp which fuel freezes all i know i won,t be up there.
How would you set about starting a 914 to lessen the chance of kick back.
Regards
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392604#392604
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| Subject: | Re: Alternate Fuel for 914 |
Alan, Kick back is something I associate with 912S engines
rather than 914 s. Mine has always started pretty much
first time on any old Mogas or Avgas with no hint of kick
back. I just wonder whether it is a question of how well
your engine turns over and wonder what sort of battery
you have. I am helping supervise our local School's Build
a Plane project of a Rans with a Jabiru engine. We have
got to the engine trials stage and we found the brand new
fully charged battery supplied would only just turn the
engine over at about a blade every 15 secs. We complained
and the suppliers sent another with the same result. We
went over the battery circuit polishing everything, but no
different. In exasperation I went and took the Odyssey
p680 battery out of my plane and tried that. It was in a
midwinter state not having been charged for a fair time,
and it was identical size to the one they supplied.
However it turned the engine over like a windmill in a
gale!
Checking on line we found that the supplied battery
was a cheap affair designed for golf buggies whereas the
Odyssey is a pure lead, gas recombinant type with
negligible internal resistance and massive cranking power.
Regards, David Joyce, G- XSDJ
On Fri, 18 Jan 2013 14:04:36 -0800
"Alan Carter" <alancarteresq@onetel.net> wrote:
><alancarteresq@onetel.net>
>
> Hello Roger,Peter,and All.
> I turn the key on my car and it starts, turn the key on
>a Cessna 150 and it starts, i use to flip the switch on
>4 jet engines and they started.
> I keep being told how good the Rotax engine is but it
>always seems to have problems.!!!
> This dreaded Detonation and kicking back seems to cause
>havoc on Rotax engines,Sprag clutches, Soft Starts,
>Oversized Starters,Fuels,ete.
> Is cold weather i have a fully charged battery plus hook
>up to my motor cycle battery as well, i am using Mogas
>super think it about 91,yet i get this dreaded kicking
>back, i have seen the propeller oscillate it knocks hell
>out of the engine. My point is this should not be
>happening why was it not sorted out by Rotax long ago.
> I guess a high spin rate and power enough to give engine
>no choice in the direction its going to turn.
> We have Super plus in the UK think its about 94 or
>96,Octane, and think also has NO ethanol. However the CAA
>have dreamed up something about vapour locking, probable
>some bod has read about vapour locking but i bet there's
>never been any actual tests carried out.
> Its about -5 at the moment bloody cold. Vapour more like
>freezing of the fuel, really have no idea of the temp
>which fuel freezes all i know i won,t be up there.
> How would you set about starting a 914 to lessen the
>chance of kick back.
> Regards
> Alan
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392604#392604
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Un/Subscription,
>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>Forums!
>Admin.
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Alternate Fuel for 914 |
Alan,
I'm not sure where to start because with my 914 it's: 1) I turn on the master,
2) flip on the two ignition switches, 3) flip on the electric boost pump to get
fuel pressure and 4) flip it off, 5) pull on the "Choke" if it's cool to cold,
6) flip on the starter and 7) it starts. Every time. No kickback ever. Start
is usually on one blade passing in the summer, two or, maybe, three blades
in the winter if it's really cold. Coldest start has been -2C in a north Texas
winter. Any colder than that (it can get to -20C or lower) and I'm not going
to the airport.
Caveats:
Only 30 hours so far but I'm working on that. Now this is with the, expen$ive,
upgraded starter which was installed prior ever starting the engine. And I only
use 100LL. No MoGas as MoGas is not available at airports in my area nor
in the areas where I usually fly. So to keep things simple, I only use 100LL.
This has been with the recommended Mobil 1 Motorcycle Oil. But it's not supposed
to be used with 100LL, so I'm switching to AeroShell Sport next month when
I do the annual. We'll see if that changes anything.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger@mac.com
On Jan 18, 2013, at 4:04 PM, Alan Carter <alancarteresq@onetel.net> wrote:
Hello Roger,Peter,and All.
I turn the key on my car and it starts, turn the key on a Cessna 150 and it starts,
i use to flip the switch on 4 jet engines and they started.
I keep being told how good the Rotax engine is but it always seems to have problems.!!!
This dreaded Detonation and kicking back seems to cause havoc on Rotax engines,Sprag
clutches, Soft Starts, Oversized Starters,Fuels,ete.
Is cold weather i have a fully charged battery plus hook up to my motor cycle battery
as well, i am using Mogas super think it about 91,yet i get this dreaded
kicking back, i have seen the propeller oscillate it knocks hell out of the
engine. My point is this should not be happening why was it not sorted out by
Rotax long ago.
I guess a high spin rate and power enough to give engine no choice in the direction
its going to turn.
We have Super plus in the UK think its about 94 or 96,Octane, and think also has
NO ethanol. However the CAA have dreamed up something about vapour locking,
probable some bod has read about vapour locking but i bet there's never been any
actual tests carried out.
Its about -5 at the moment bloody cold. Vapour more like freezing of the fuel,
really have no idea of the temp which fuel freezes all i know i won,t be up there.
How would you set about starting a 914 to lessen the chance of kick back.
Regards
Alan
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| Subject: | Re: Alternate Fuel for 914 |
Alan,
After reading David's post, I need to add that this is primarily with an Odyssey
PC680 which is kept on a battery charger/maintainer. And the aircraft is hangered
100% of the time it's not flying. I recently (like 2 hours flying time
ago) switched the PC680 for an AeroVoltz LiFePo battery which is 12 lbs lighter
and seems to start it just as readily but doesn't have the long-term juice
to run the electrics for more than about 20 minutes or so. Can't recommend it
at all to electrically dependent engines.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger@mac.com
On Jan 18, 2013, at 4:44 PM, Robert Borger <rlborger@mac.com> wrote:
Alan,
I'm not sure where to start because with my 914 it's: 1) I turn on the master,
2) flip on the two ignition switches, 3) flip on the electric boost pump to get
fuel pressure and 4) flip it off, 5) pull on the "Choke" if it's cool to cold,
6) flip on the starter and 7) it starts. Every time. No kickback ever. Start
is usually on one blade passing in the summer, two or, maybe, three blades
in the winter if it's really cold. Coldest start has been -2C in a north Texas
winter. Any colder than that (it can get to -20C or lower) and I'm not going
to the airport.
Caveats:
Only 30 hours so far but I'm working on that. Now this is with the, expen$ive,
upgraded starter which was installed prior ever starting the engine. And I only
use 100LL. No MoGas as MoGas is not available at airports in my area nor
in the areas where I usually fly. So to keep things simple, I only use 100LL.
This has been with the recommended Mobil 1 Motorcycle Oil. But it's not supposed
to be used with 100LL, so I'm switching to AeroShell Sport next month when
I do the annual. We'll see if that changes anything.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger@mac.com
On Jan 18, 2013, at 4:04 PM, Alan Carter <alancarteresq@onetel.net> wrote:
Hello Roger,Peter,and All.
I turn the key on my car and it starts, turn the key on a Cessna 150 and it starts,
i use to flip the switch on 4 jet engines and they started.
I keep being told how good the Rotax engine is but it always seems to have problems.!!!
This dreaded Detonation and kicking back seems to cause havoc on Rotax engines,Sprag
clutches, Soft Starts, Oversized Starters,Fuels,ete.
Is cold weather i have a fully charged battery plus hook up to my motor cycle battery
as well, i am using Mogas super think it about 91,yet i get this dreaded
kicking back, i have seen the propeller oscillate it knocks hell out of the
engine. My point is this should not be happening why was it not sorted out by
Rotax long ago.
I guess a high spin rate and power enough to give engine no choice in the direction
its going to turn.
We have Super plus in the UK think its about 94 or 96,Octane, and think also has
NO ethanol. However the CAA have dreamed up something about vapour locking,
probable some bod has read about vapour locking but i bet there's never been any
actual tests carried out.
Its about -5 at the moment bloody cold. Vapour more like freezing of the fuel,
really have no idea of the temp which fuel freezes all i know i won,t be up there.
How would you set about starting a 914 to lessen the chance of kick back.
Regards
Alan
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Alternate Fuel for 914 |
Kick back usually comes from a low friction torque with the slipper clutch. have
the gearbox re-shimmed will usually take care of it. Using a heavy prop will
add to that little issue. the lighter composite props usually kick back a lot
less. Poor carb balance and or throttle set point at start will add to kick backs
to. Typically a low battery doesn't cause a problem because it can't turn
the prop fast enough or hard enough. the old black colored starter will also
add to this. If you have the old style starter get the newer gold colored high
torque starter. There is a difference.
The Rotax is a good engine when setup properly and maintained properly.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392612#392612
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