Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:00 AM - Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down (Max Cointe)
2. 02:28 AM - Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down (Alan Carter)
3. 04:47 AM - Re: Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down (Robert Borger)
4. 05:55 AM - Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down (Catz631@aol.com)
5. 06:11 AM - Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down (Roger Lee)
6. 06:28 AM - Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down (Alan Carter)
7. 06:50 AM - Re: Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down (Max Cointe)
8. 07:47 AM - Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down (Alan Carter)
9. 08:33 AM - Re: Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down (FLYaDIVE)
10. 09:20 AM - Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down (Alan Carter)
11. 10:51 AM - Re: Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down (FLYaDIVE)
12. 11:10 AM - Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down (Alan Carter)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | reverse prop rotation at shut down |
Hi there all !
Brian says : =93If you treat a Rotax like a Lyc/Cont it will protest...
I was
taught to close the throttle completely and then switch off one mag, and
then both mags ...Once you get used to it, it will not give you any
problems=94.
Coming from old Lyc / Conti world I happen to discover the same trick to
shut down with my first 912ULS on the Europa and apply it now to the
second
on my MCR4S (also a bit surprised by its attitude at starting I=92m
still
considering to implement a =93soft start kit=94). It seems not to have
an impact
on the cycle-life, both running smoothly after more than 450 hours.
Max Cointe
<mailto:mcointe@free.fr> mcointe@free.fr
F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear
Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 450 hours
F-PLDJ Dyn=92A=E9ro MCR 4S
Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1550 heures
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down |
Hi.
450 hours, !
My Honda Civic did 330,000 miles god knows how many hours that would be over 18
years and was still as good as the first day i had it .
Its an engine, should run all its life without any major problems.
Why do you all seem the think an areo engine should be any different
Alan.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392791#392791
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down |
Alan,
Aero engines are operated in a different manner to auto engines. Auto engines
normally don't run at more than 25% of their rated power. The engine in my Ford
F-150 is capable of 450 ft-lbs of torque and 390 HP at 5000 RPM but rarely
runs over 2500 RPM. It's just lazing along at highway speeds. And they very
rarely, if ever, are called on to provide 100% power.
Aero engines normally run in the 65%-100% range of their power. And Aero engines
are routinely operated at 100% power for extended periods of time during takeoff
and initial climb out. Engines with fixed pitch props always climb at 100%
power. Engines with C/S props may drop back to 90% for extended climb. Then
in cruise they run at 65%-75% or greater power continuously. As a result
there's considerably more operating stress on an aero engine than an auto engine.
And that doesn't take into account the differences in operating environment at
sea level to 6000 feet vs sea level to 12,000 feet and sometimes much higher.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger@mac.com
On Jan 21, 2013, at 4:28 AM, Alan Carter <alancarteresq@onetel.net> wrote:
Hi.
450 hours, !
My Honda Civic did 330,000 miles god knows how many hours that would be over 18
years and was still as good as the first day i had it .
Its an engine, should run all its life without any major problems.
Why do you all seem the think an areo engine should be any different
Alan.
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down |
Thanks for all your replies.
I have tried shutting down at high idle...that didn't work as then it
really wants to go backward !
Going from a Warp to a Kiev prop,which is lighter ,helped a lot but still
once in a while I get the reverse rotation if I am not judicious in low
rpm shutdown.
The engine only has 350 hrs total and the timing is fixed of course. It
starts and runs great. It really only has that one consistent bug at shutdown
I have to watch for. Again if I shut down at around 1000-1200 rpm,it seems
to do OK. I too taxi @ 1800 rpm. Shutdown is one mag off,then the next
off,then both off (per Rotax suggestion)
I will live with this occasional anomaly but am getting mighty tired of
doing the valve check each time it does this and of course the one time I
don't,it will suck air into the lifters !
Bob,
My short final rpm in my Kitfox is around 2100 which equates to 1800
rpm on the deck. I too had to learn to adjust to this as I would float awhile
in ground effect. (throttle is fully closed) but I am used to it now. I
can always slip or use more flaps for more drag.
Dick Maddux
912 UL
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down |
You can set the ground idle to 1650-1700 (Not for normal idling which should be
controlled at or above 1800 for the ULS) and then shutdown one mag for a few
seconds then the next.
Sounds like you need a gearbox re-shim regardless of the low hours. It needs to
be tightened up. This is the symptom of low friction torque. It needs to be stopped
or it may cause the sprag clutch some damage after a while.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392806#392806
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down |
Hi Bob.
Happy new year to you.
Yes all correct,but some engines total millions of hours,I still thing the Rotax
is not trouble free and could be better,
I,m no aero engine expert, but for this sort of engine which seems to start OK
on snow mobiles maybe should have have something like a slip and grip clutch if
there is such a thing,?
Disconnect the propeller, Start and Stop the engine without that huge propeller
going round, once started slip the clutch in to engage the prop, and stop in
the same way so the prop just free wheels down.
Now if some-one had designed something like this we would not have all these problems.
Maybe also there is a reason this can,t be done and i,m talking out of
my ass, but maybe not.?
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392808#392808
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down |
Alan,
I won't comment which part of your body talks here as internet doesn't
transmit odor (yet) :-)
Basically the reducer includes a clutch but with no manual directive. Adding
one would add heavy components and additional causes of failure (like
existing on turboprops).
Max Cointe
mcointe@free.fr
F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear
Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 450 hours
F-PLDJ DynAro MCR 4S
Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1550 heures
-----Message d'origine-----
De: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Alan
Carter
Envoy: lundi 21 janvier 2013 15:28
: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
Objet: RotaxEngines-List: Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down
--> <alancarteresq@onetel.net>
Hi Bob.
Happy new year to you.
Yes all correct,but some engines total millions of hours,I still thing the
Rotax is not trouble free and could be better, I,m no aero engine expert,
but for this sort of engine which seems to start OK on snow mobiles maybe
should have have something like a slip and grip clutch if there is such a
thing,?
Disconnect the propeller, Start and Stop the engine without that huge
propeller going round, once started slip the clutch in to engage the prop,
and stop in the same way so the prop just free wheels down.
Now if some-one had designed something like this we would not have all these
problems. Maybe also there is a reason this can,t be done and i,m talking
out of my ass, but maybe not.?
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392808#392808
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down |
Hello Max.
Thousands of hours on Turbo props never had any trouble, proper jet engines log
up 10s of millions of hours, in fact i have many hours on all types of light
aircraft and can honestly say the Rotax seems to be among one the the most temperamental
i have come across in starting and stopping. Once its going it seem
to work fine. From the post on the form you must admit it is troublesome in starting,
Hence the introduction of the Soft start dammage sprags ,ete ete.
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392817#392817
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down |
Allen:
You are 100% correct. Well, at least it should run trouble free to TBO.
And TBO is a certified number by the Government. Cars don't get that type
of certification. Well, maybe - There is the Lemon Law.. Maybe engines
should also have a Lemon Law. AFTER ALL - A plane is NOT like a car.
You can't pull over at a cloud and do maintenance or request a tow truck..
One thing I have learned about Cars, Planes and People - The Cars and
Planes can fail - But the People will not admit the Car, Plane, or Engine
they spent good money on STINKS. They did nothing in the design or
building of the engine but will swear it is the best thing since sliced
bread. I have no problem about bitching about a car, plane or engine that
has more bugs than a freshly burred corps in a pine box. Lycoming had huge
problems until the lawyers fixed them all. My Lycoming had huge problems
until it was Majored for a third time (it seams to be working - ONLY time
will tell).
The two issues are:
1 - They are mechanical - They are not perfect.
2 - They are built by people - And surely you know they are not perfect.
By the way Allen, a fellow I know has 588,000+ Miles on a GMC Jimmy - GM
purchased the car and dismantled the engine - They said it had about as
much ware as a 12,000 mile engine. It is in some type of record book. Oh,
he also ONLY used Mobile 1 Full Synthetic Oil and changed the oil ever
2,500 miles. Now That is CRAZY!
All I want is an engine to do TBO and not have to fly every second worrying
about a Emergency Place to Land.
And no - I do not do that.
Barry
On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 5:28 AM, Alan Carter <alancarteresq@onetel.net>wrote:
> alancarteresq@onetel.net>
>
> Hi.
> 450 hours, !
> My Honda Civic did 330,000 miles god knows how many hours that would be
> over 18 years and was still as good as the first day i had it .
> Its an engine, should run all its life without any major problems.
> Why do you all seem the think an areo engine should be any different
> Alan.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392791#392791
>
>
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down |
Hi Barry.
Well Barry 588,000 is a long way, but i still think 330000 miles i have some sort
of record,as the car was left outside all year round never, never serviced
at a garage, and all i ever did was change the oil and filters every 10,000.plus
the usual odds and ends like brakes.
I do get some flak on my posts ,no expert on anything,but voice my ideas for discussion,
as i found out in Aerobatics there is always some-one who can do it
better, so open for the input from others on the Forum,be it good or bad,
However i left myself a bit open. don,t think i will mention my anatomy again
.
Alan
[Wink]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392825#392825
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down |
Alan:
I do not feel you left yourself open at all. It is a positive way of
thinking what SHOULD be expected from an engine, especially an aircraft
engine where you put your life and those of your passengers to the test
every time you fly.
Yes, 330,000 miles is quite great - And you take care of your car engine
the way I do. My Hyundai has 225,095 miles as of this morning. And I
change the oil twice a year whether it needs it or not ;-)
Oh, No burping required on the Hyundai either. No $8.00/Qt oil either. No
$20.00 oil filter either. No $25.00/Pt of Cam Guard either. GRANTED! Our
cars are used way more often than our planes and we MUST do what we can to
safeguard our play-toy investment. AND you have to remember this: Our
planes are used at 65% to 75% of power for 95% of the flight; 100% during
takeoff. Our cars are about 20% of the HP during cruse - BIG DIFFERENCE.
Some day I am going to install my spare fuel flow gauge in the car and
play with the Fuel flow BHP numbers just to see what they really are.
Barry
On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Alan Carter <alancarteresq@onetel.net>wrote:
> alancarteresq@onetel.net>
>
> Hi Barry.
> Well Barry 588,000 is a long way, but i still think 330000 miles i have
> some sort of record,as the car was left outside all year round never, never
> serviced at a garage, and all i ever did was change the oil and filters
> every 10,000.plus the usual odds and ends like brakes.
> I do get some flak on my posts ,no expert on anything,but voice my ideas
> for discussion, as i found out in Aerobatics there is always some-one who
> can do it better, so open for the input from others on the Forum,be it good
> or bad,
> However i left myself a bit open. don,t think i will mention my anatomy
> again
> .
> Alan
>
> [Wink]
>
>
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down |
Hi All.
Just to clarify on this ,Iwas told i should not compare a Rotax with a Turbo Prop,
absolutely right, and i was not.
All i am saying for 25000 i expect an engine with better starting and stopping.
And these problem's are serious as they could cost you a new engine.
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392836#392836
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|