---------------------------------------------------------- RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 01/21/13: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:00 AM - Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down (Max Cointe) 2. 02:28 AM - Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down (Alan Carter) 3. 04:47 AM - Re: Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down (Robert Borger) 4. 05:55 AM - Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down (Catz631@aol.com) 5. 06:11 AM - Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down (Roger Lee) 6. 06:28 AM - Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down (Alan Carter) 7. 06:50 AM - Re: Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down (Max Cointe) 8. 07:47 AM - Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down (Alan Carter) 9. 08:33 AM - Re: Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down (FLYaDIVE) 10. 09:20 AM - Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down (Alan Carter) 11. 10:51 AM - Re: Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down (FLYaDIVE) 12. 11:10 AM - Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down (Alan Carter) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:00:16 AM PST US From: "Max Cointe" Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: reverse prop rotation at shut down Hi there all ! Brian says : =93If you treat a Rotax like a Lyc/Cont it will protest... I was taught to close the throttle completely and then switch off one mag, and then both mags ...Once you get used to it, it will not give you any problems=94. Coming from old Lyc / Conti world I happen to discover the same trick to shut down with my first 912ULS on the Europa and apply it now to the second on my MCR4S (also a bit surprised by its attitude at starting I=92m still considering to implement a =93soft start kit=94). It seems not to have an impact on the cycle-life, both running smoothly after more than 450 hours. Max Cointe mcointe@free.fr F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 450 hours F-PLDJ Dyn=92A=E9ro MCR 4S Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1550 heures ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:28:26 AM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down From: "Alan Carter" Hi. 450 hours, ! My Honda Civic did 330,000 miles god knows how many hours that would be over 18 years and was still as good as the first day i had it . Its an engine, should run all its life without any major problems. Why do you all seem the think an areo engine should be any different Alan. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392791#392791 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:47:36 AM PST US Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down From: Robert Borger Alan, Aero engines are operated in a different manner to auto engines. Auto engines normally don't run at more than 25% of their rated power. The engine in my Ford F-150 is capable of 450 ft-lbs of torque and 390 HP at 5000 RPM but rarely runs over 2500 RPM. It's just lazing along at highway speeds. And they very rarely, if ever, are called on to provide 100% power. Aero engines normally run in the 65%-100% range of their power. And Aero engines are routinely operated at 100% power for extended periods of time during takeoff and initial climb out. Engines with fixed pitch props always climb at 100% power. Engines with C/S props may drop back to 90% for extended climb. Then in cruise they run at 65%-75% or greater power continuously. As a result there's considerably more operating stress on an aero engine than an auto engine. And that doesn't take into account the differences in operating environment at sea level to 6000 feet vs sea level to 12,000 feet and sometimes much higher. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop. Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger@mac.com On Jan 21, 2013, at 4:28 AM, Alan Carter wrote: Hi. 450 hours, ! My Honda Civic did 330,000 miles god knows how many hours that would be over 18 years and was still as good as the first day i had it . Its an engine, should run all its life without any major problems. Why do you all seem the think an areo engine should be any different Alan. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:55:47 AM PST US From: Catz631@aol.com Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: reverse prop rotation at shut down Thanks for all your replies. I have tried shutting down at high idle...that didn't work as then it really wants to go backward ! Going from a Warp to a Kiev prop,which is lighter ,helped a lot but still once in a while I get the reverse rotation if I am not judicious in low rpm shutdown. The engine only has 350 hrs total and the timing is fixed of course. It starts and runs great. It really only has that one consistent bug at shutdown I have to watch for. Again if I shut down at around 1000-1200 rpm,it seems to do OK. I too taxi @ 1800 rpm. Shutdown is one mag off,then the next off,then both off (per Rotax suggestion) I will live with this occasional anomaly but am getting mighty tired of doing the valve check each time it does this and of course the one time I don't,it will suck air into the lifters ! Bob, My short final rpm in my Kitfox is around 2100 which equates to 1800 rpm on the deck. I too had to learn to adjust to this as I would float awhile in ground effect. (throttle is fully closed) but I am used to it now. I can always slip or use more flaps for more drag. Dick Maddux 912 UL ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:11:01 AM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down From: "Roger Lee" You can set the ground idle to 1650-1700 (Not for normal idling which should be controlled at or above 1800 for the ULS) and then shutdown one mag for a few seconds then the next. Sounds like you need a gearbox re-shim regardless of the low hours. It needs to be tightened up. This is the symptom of low friction torque. It needs to be stopped or it may cause the sprag clutch some damage after a while. -------- Roger Lee Tucson, Az. Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST Cell 520-349-7056 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392806#392806 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:28:38 AM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down From: "Alan Carter" Hi Bob. Happy new year to you. Yes all correct,but some engines total millions of hours,I still thing the Rotax is not trouble free and could be better, I,m no aero engine expert, but for this sort of engine which seems to start OK on snow mobiles maybe should have have something like a slip and grip clutch if there is such a thing,? Disconnect the propeller, Start and Stop the engine without that huge propeller going round, once started slip the clutch in to engage the prop, and stop in the same way so the prop just free wheels down. Now if some-one had designed something like this we would not have all these problems. Maybe also there is a reason this can,t be done and i,m talking out of my ass, but maybe not.? Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392808#392808 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:50:18 AM PST US From: "Max Cointe" Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down Alan, I won't comment which part of your body talks here as internet doesn't transmit odor (yet) :-) Basically the reducer includes a clutch but with no manual directive. Adding one would add heavy components and additional causes of failure (like existing on turboprops). Max Cointe mcointe@free.fr F-PMLH Europa XS_TriGear Kit #560-2003 912ULS/AirmasterAP332 450 hours F-PLDJ DynAro MCR 4S Kit #27-2002 912ULSFR/MTProp MTV7A 1550 heures -----Message d'origine----- De: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] De la part de Alan Carter Envoy: lundi 21 janvier 2013 15:28 : rotaxengines-list@matronics.com Objet: RotaxEngines-List: Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down --> Hi Bob. Happy new year to you. Yes all correct,but some engines total millions of hours,I still thing the Rotax is not trouble free and could be better, I,m no aero engine expert, but for this sort of engine which seems to start OK on snow mobiles maybe should have have something like a slip and grip clutch if there is such a thing,? Disconnect the propeller, Start and Stop the engine without that huge propeller going round, once started slip the clutch in to engage the prop, and stop in the same way so the prop just free wheels down. Now if some-one had designed something like this we would not have all these problems. Maybe also there is a reason this can,t be done and i,m talking out of my ass, but maybe not.? Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392808#392808 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:47:42 AM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down From: "Alan Carter" Hello Max. Thousands of hours on Turbo props never had any trouble, proper jet engines log up 10s of millions of hours, in fact i have many hours on all types of light aircraft and can honestly say the Rotax seems to be among one the the most temperamental i have come across in starting and stopping. Once its going it seem to work fine. From the post on the form you must admit it is troublesome in starting, Hence the introduction of the Soft start dammage sprags ,ete ete. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392817#392817 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:33:23 AM PST US Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down From: FLYaDIVE Allen: You are 100% correct. Well, at least it should run trouble free to TBO. And TBO is a certified number by the Government. Cars don't get that type of certification. Well, maybe - There is the Lemon Law.. Maybe engines should also have a Lemon Law. AFTER ALL - A plane is NOT like a car. You can't pull over at a cloud and do maintenance or request a tow truck.. One thing I have learned about Cars, Planes and People - The Cars and Planes can fail - But the People will not admit the Car, Plane, or Engine they spent good money on STINKS. They did nothing in the design or building of the engine but will swear it is the best thing since sliced bread. I have no problem about bitching about a car, plane or engine that has more bugs than a freshly burred corps in a pine box. Lycoming had huge problems until the lawyers fixed them all. My Lycoming had huge problems until it was Majored for a third time (it seams to be working - ONLY time will tell). The two issues are: 1 - They are mechanical - They are not perfect. 2 - They are built by people - And surely you know they are not perfect. By the way Allen, a fellow I know has 588,000+ Miles on a GMC Jimmy - GM purchased the car and dismantled the engine - They said it had about as much ware as a 12,000 mile engine. It is in some type of record book. Oh, he also ONLY used Mobile 1 Full Synthetic Oil and changed the oil ever 2,500 miles. Now That is CRAZY! All I want is an engine to do TBO and not have to fly every second worrying about a Emergency Place to Land. And no - I do not do that. Barry On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 5:28 AM, Alan Carter wrote: > alancarteresq@onetel.net> > > Hi. > 450 hours, ! > My Honda Civic did 330,000 miles god knows how many hours that would be > over 18 years and was still as good as the first day i had it . > Its an engine, should run all its life without any major problems. > Why do you all seem the think an areo engine should be any different > Alan. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392791#392791 > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:20:13 AM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down From: "Alan Carter" Hi Barry. Well Barry 588,000 is a long way, but i still think 330000 miles i have some sort of record,as the car was left outside all year round never, never serviced at a garage, and all i ever did was change the oil and filters every 10,000.plus the usual odds and ends like brakes. I do get some flak on my posts ,no expert on anything,but voice my ideas for discussion, as i found out in Aerobatics there is always some-one who can do it better, so open for the input from others on the Forum,be it good or bad, However i left myself a bit open. don,t think i will mention my anatomy again . Alan [Wink] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392825#392825 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:51:29 AM PST US Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down From: FLYaDIVE Alan: I do not feel you left yourself open at all. It is a positive way of thinking what SHOULD be expected from an engine, especially an aircraft engine where you put your life and those of your passengers to the test every time you fly. Yes, 330,000 miles is quite great - And you take care of your car engine the way I do. My Hyundai has 225,095 miles as of this morning. And I change the oil twice a year whether it needs it or not ;-) Oh, No burping required on the Hyundai either. No $8.00/Qt oil either. No $20.00 oil filter either. No $25.00/Pt of Cam Guard either. GRANTED! Our cars are used way more often than our planes and we MUST do what we can to safeguard our play-toy investment. AND you have to remember this: Our planes are used at 65% to 75% of power for 95% of the flight; 100% during takeoff. Our cars are about 20% of the HP during cruse - BIG DIFFERENCE. Some day I am going to install my spare fuel flow gauge in the car and play with the Fuel flow BHP numbers just to see what they really are. Barry On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Alan Carter wrote: > alancarteresq@onetel.net> > > Hi Barry. > Well Barry 588,000 is a long way, but i still think 330000 miles i have > some sort of record,as the car was left outside all year round never, never > serviced at a garage, and all i ever did was change the oil and filters > every 10,000.plus the usual odds and ends like brakes. > I do get some flak on my posts ,no expert on anything,but voice my ideas > for discussion, as i found out in Aerobatics there is always some-one who > can do it better, so open for the input from others on the Forum,be it good > or bad, > However i left myself a bit open. don,t think i will mention my anatomy > again > . > Alan > > [Wink] > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:10:29 AM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Re: reverse prop rotation at shut down From: "Alan Carter" Hi All. Just to clarify on this ,Iwas told i should not compare a Rotax with a Turbo Prop, absolutely right, and i was not. All i am saying for 25000 i expect an engine with better starting and stopping. And these problem's are serious as they could cost you a new engine. Alan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=392836#392836 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message rotaxengines-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RotaxEngines-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/rotaxengines-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/rotaxengines-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.