Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:31 AM - 912 gearbox problems?? (JC Gilpin)
2. 01:42 AM - Re:Oil leak 912ULS (Peter Thomson)
3. 04:13 AM - Re: 912 gearbox problems?? (Jim.Kulbeth@insightbb.com)
4. 05:04 AM - Re: 912 gearbox problems?? (FLYaDIVE)
5. 05:34 AM - Re: 912 gearbox problems?? (BRUCE OVIATT)
6. 06:07 AM - Re: 912 gearbox problems?? (Pete Christensen)
7. 06:11 AM - Re: 912 gearbox problems?? (Roger Lee)
8. 06:18 AM - Re: 912 gearbox problems?? (Peter Jeffers)
9. 06:42 AM - Re: 912 gearbox problems?? (FLYaDIVE)
10. 07:19 AM - Re: 912 gearbox problems?? (Roger Lee)
11. 09:52 AM - Re: Re: 912 gearbox problems?? (Davd Weaver)
12. 11:38 AM - Re: 912 gearbox problems?? (pestar)
13. 02:32 PM - Re: 912 gearbox problems?? (Roger Lee)
Message 1
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| Subject: | 912 gearbox problems?? |
Gday,
We're told that we should have the gearbox inspected at 600hrs especially
if we've run much 100LL.
I haven't known anyone to really do that, and know of many engines well
over 1000hrs, and haven't ever heard of any actual failures anywhere.....
Anyone have real life experience??
JG
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re:Oil leak 912ULS |
Well, I tried Roger's idea of cleaning things up and ground running at
4000rpm.
Before this, I resealed the threads on oil pressure sensor and oil pressure
spring threads with Loctite 567.
After ground run, I found the leak - slightly forward of the first Allen
screw on the bottom of the crankcase, where the two halves join - it is a
point where the crankcase starts to slope up. The seal, Rotax recommends
Loctite 574, a silicone material, must have let go at that point (after
about 8 years and 800hrs...).
The Loctite guy here recommends Loctite 290, to wick into the gap and
likely seal it. Good fortune that it was not further back and hard to get
at :)
Thanks again for all the comments !
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: 912 gearbox problems?? |
I have a friend in South Carolina with a 912UL with 1400 hours and it has ex
hibited no problems of any kind. Here in US we use a high RPM motor cycle o
il. He plans to go to 2000 hrs, unless oil analysis starts to change.
Best regards,
Jimmy
On Feb 21, 2013, at 3:30, JC Gilpin <j.gilpin@bigpond.com> wrote:
> Gday,
>
> We're told that we should have the gearbox inspected at 600hrs especially i
f we've run much 100LL.
>
> I haven't known anyone to really do that, and know of many engines well ov
er 1000hrs, and haven't ever heard of any actual failures anywhere..... Any
one have real life experience??
>
> JG
>
>
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>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: 912 gearbox problems?? |
Why would the type of fuel used have any affect on the gear box? Does the
fuel go through or into the gear box?
Thought the engine had 2000 Hour TBO?
Barry
On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 3:30 AM, JC Gilpin <j.gilpin@bigpond.com> wrote:
> Gday,
>
> We're told that we should have the gearbox inspected at 600hrs especially
> if we've run much 100LL.
>
> I haven't known anyone to really do that, and know of many engines well
> over 1000hrs, and haven't ever heard of any actual failures anywhere.....
> Anyone have real life experience??
>
> JG
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: 912 gearbox problems?? |
I just had an inspection and spalling of the gears was found. So the
rebuild and new gears cost $1000.
The possible cause was not using oil with gear additive. THe LEAF tech
recommended Amsoil motorcycle oil.
Kitfox III
Rotax 912ul 600 hours.
----- Original Message -----
From: JC Gilpin
To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 2:30 AM
Subject: RotaxEngines-List: 912 gearbox problems??
Gday,
We're told that we should have the gearbox inspected at 600hrs
especially if we've run much 100LL.
I haven't known anyone to really do that, and know of many engines
well over 1000hrs, and haven't ever heard of any actual failures
anywhere..... Anyone have real life experience??
JG
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: 912 gearbox problems?? |
I did my 600 hr while attending Rotax Service and Maintenance school. I hav
e an older 912. Had to replace some obsolete parts. Glad I did.
Pete
On Feb 21, 2013, at 2:30 AM, JC Gilpin <j.gilpin@bigpond.com> wrote:
> Gday,
>
> We're told that we should have the gearbox inspected at 600hrs especially i
f we've run much 100LL.
>
> I haven't known anyone to really do that, and know of many engines well ov
er 1000hrs, and haven't ever heard of any actual failures anywhere..... Any
one have real life experience??
>
> JG
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: 912 gearbox problems?? |
Here's why Guys,
If you have a 912UL without a slipper clutch not quite as important, but if you
have a 912ULS then it is. If you use more than 30% 100LL and especially if you
use it all the time the lead paste accumulates in the slipper clutch. At about
800 hrs. you clutch is pretty much useless. Will you notice it in the cockpit,
no, but if you have a prop strike it sends all the shock to the engine. So
now instead of a gearbox protecting your engine you now just twisted your pressed
together crankshaft and your going to spend about $10K- $12K to get it fixed.
You can not split the clutch at home. It takes a special jig and 540 ft/lbs
to separate it and there are only 4 places in the country that can do it. The
lead paste will be so bad it takes lots of solvent and scrubbing to remove
it and make the clutch useful again. Now if you live in a humid climate 100LL
mixed with moisture will cause acid and that will erode the gear splines and pit
them. As you get up in the higher hours the gearbox Bellville washers loose
their tension and your slipper clutch torque drops off so the gearbox should
be re-shimmed. Poor shim tension and eroded gear sets cause vibration and kickback
situations that are transmitted right to the rest of the engine.
The 912UL should be inspected too, but it gets checked more for the washers, bearings
and gear erosion.
For these guys that never maint. their engine ignorance is bliss and there are
tons of stories out there where guys engines fail and they say they just don't
understand why. Just because you haven't heard of one doesn't mean they don't
happen all around the world everyday. The idea is to stay in the air safely,
spend a little now with less down time verses joining the ranks of the crashed,
expensive and excessive down times and do it with a little preventative maint.
Hec they change the oil once a year, plugs every 3-4 years and wrote 3 lines in
their logbook for an inspection once a year, but never read the maint. manual
to what or how things should have been inspected and then it was Rotax's fault
when they have to spend $1K-$10K to get their engine fixed.
you can't see or feel problems just by staring at the outside of the gearbox. It
needs to be opened up.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394745#394745
Message 8
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| Subject: | 912 gearbox problems?? |
Very simplistically the same oil that lubricates your pistons and bearings
also lubricates the gearbox. The oil on and around the cylinder walls comes
in contact with, amongst other things, the lead in leaded fuel should you be
using low lead. The lead remains in the oil and deposits on all surfaces
that it comes into contact with. Gear boxes don't much like lead.
Some of the later engines have an ultimate life of 2000 hrs. Other older
ones can be limited to 1200 or 1500 hrs. All are subject to recommended
600hr gearbox inspections. Engines run on Low Lead show substantial lead
build up in the gearboxes.
Pete Jeffers
_____
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: 21 February 2013 13:04
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: 912 gearbox problems??
Why would the type of fuel used have any affect on the gear box? Does the
fuel go through or into the gear box?
Thought the engine had 2000 Hour TBO?
Barry
On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 3:30 AM, JC Gilpin <j.gilpin@bigpond.com> wrote:
Gday,
We're told that we should have the gearbox inspected at 600hrs especially if
we've run much 100LL.
I haven't known anyone to really do that, and know of many engines well over
1000hrs, and haven't ever heard of any actual failures anywhere..... Anyone
have real life experience??
JG
ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: 912 gearbox problems?? |
Very interesting - - -
So that would mean:
1 - You are getting Blow-By on the rings and putting burnt
or partially burnt fuel and the byproduct of lead into the engine oil.
That would be either a poor design or bad cylinder & rings.
2 - Even if you were getting fuel into the engine oil, the fuel would only
evaporate quickly. Adding fuel to engine oil is an old trick
in extreme cold to thin the oil.
So I can't see that being a problem for the gears. Other issues YES. I
don't want blow-by.
3 - Still, if you were getting burnt fuel - - Lead, into your fuel your oil
filter would or should remove the lead. It wouldn't it be the same type of
lead you see on spark plugs?
4 - If you are getting lead and everything else with the engine is good.
The problem is you are running too rich. Lean more - Use a hotter plug -
Use a hotter spark.
5 - The chemical Tetraethyl lead in liquid form does nothing physical to
steel. In burn form it is conductive and abrasive. But, again how would
it, in that form get to the gears?
Barry
On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 9:17 AM, Peter Jeffers <pjeffers@talktalk.net>wrote
:
> **
>
> Very simplistically the same oil that lubricates your pistons and bearing
s
> also lubricates the gearbox. The oil on and around the cylinder walls
> comes in contact with, amongst other things, the lead in leaded fuel shou
ld
> you be using low lead. The lead remains in the oil and deposits on all
> surfaces that it comes into contact with. Gear boxes don=92t much like l
ead.
> ****
>
> Some of the later engines have an ultimate life of 2000 hrs. Other older
> ones can be limited to 1200 or 1500 hrs. All are subject to *recommended
*600hr gearbox inspections. Engines run on Low Lead show substantial lead
> build up in the gearboxes.****
>
> ** **
>
> Pete Jeffers****
>
> ** **
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *FLYaDIVE
> *Sent:* 21 February 2013 13:04
> *To:* **rotaxengines-list@matronics.com**
> *Subject:* Re: RotaxEngines-List: 912 gearbox problems??****
>
> ** **
>
> Why would the type of fuel used have any affect on the gear box? Does th
e
> fuel go through or into the gear box?****
>
> ** **
>
> Thought the engine had 2000 Hour TBO?****
>
> ** **
>
> Barry****
>
> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 3:30 AM, JC Gilpin <j.gilpin@bigpond.com> wrote:*
*
> **
>
> Gday,****
>
> ** **
>
> We're told that we should have the gearbox inspected at 600hrs especially
> if we've run much 100LL.****
>
> ** **
>
> I haven't known anyone to really do that, and know of many engines well
> over 1000hrs, and haven't ever heard of any actual failures anywhere.....
> Anyone have real life experience??****
>
> ** **
>
> JG****
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> *ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-L
ist*
>
> *tp://forums.matronics.com*
>
> *_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> * *
>
> ** **
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://forums.matronics.com*
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> * *
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: 912 gearbox problems?? |
Hi Barry,
The Tetraethyl lead mixed with moisture is what causes erosion from and acid formation.
Yes the rings have some blow-by. You see this when you do differential
compression checks and sometimes pass the valves too. If you do a compression
test on the Rotax you will hear air coming through the oil tank. No cylinder
is perfectly air tight or you would have a differential leak down during the
test. The oil is returned to the oil tank with crankcase pressure and there has
to be a means for that pressure to get there. The oil filter will not remove
the lead as it is too small and it continues to circulate. When you drain the
oil you can see the grey lead and if you remove the oil tank and open it up you
can wipe the lead paste in the bottom out. By using a semi synthetic oil you
keep the lead in suspension. Oil and fuel leaks may not combine because of more
than one cyl. ring, but that really depends on the ring condition. The lead
build up on the plugs is just burnt lead that adhered to the plug. You will
get lead build up on the valve, it infiltrates the valve guides, drops out in
the gearbox and crankcase, coats the top of the pistons. There is nothing good
about 100LL to your engine. Running lean or rich won't stem leading. Lead is
lead and it gets burnt on or falls out of solution. The lead in the suspended
oil gets into everything. I have seen 1000-1500 hr. engines that have used nothing
but 100LL and what a mess. The lead causes just as many issues in air cooled
Continental's and Lycoming's. It has just been a fact of life and an evil
they had to live with all these years.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394750#394750
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: 912 gearbox problems?? |
How much or little does the use of fuel additives like Decaline/TCP help with use
of leaded fuel?
Dave Weaver N912GR
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 21, 2013, at 10:18 AM, "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Barry,
>
> The Tetraethyl lead mixed with moisture is what causes erosion from and acid
formation. Yes the rings have some blow-by. You see this when you do differential
compression checks and sometimes pass the valves too. If you do a compression
test on the Rotax you will hear air coming through the oil tank. No cylinder
is perfectly air tight or you would have a differential leak down during the
test. The oil is returned to the oil tank with crankcase pressure and there
has to be a means for that pressure to get there. The oil filter will not remove
the lead as it is too small and it continues to circulate. When you drain the
oil you can see the grey lead and if you remove the oil tank and open it up
you can wipe the lead paste in the bottom out. By using a semi synthetic oil
you keep the lead in suspension. Oil and fuel leaks may not combine because of
more than one cyl. ring, but that really depends on the ring condition. The lead
build up on the plugs is just burnt lead that adhe!
> red to the plug. You will get lead build up on the valve, it infiltrates the
valve guides, drops out in the gearbox and crankcase, coats the top of the pistons.
There is nothing good about 100LL to your engine. Running lean or rich won't
stem leading. Lead is lead and it gets burnt on or falls out of solution.
The lead in the suspended oil gets into everything. I have seen 1000-1500 hr.
engines that have used nothing but 100LL and what a mess. The lead causes just
as many issues in air cooled Continental's and Lycoming's. It has just been
a fact of life and an evil they had to live with all these years.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
> Cell 520-349-7056
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394750#394750
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: 912 gearbox problems?? |
This is a question directed to Roger. What is Rotax's position on the use of Decalin.
I live in New Zealand but when I was in the USA purchased a couple of
bottles of the product from Aircraft Spruce and when using 100LL use it. In
NZ there is little experience of the product and no knowledge of Rotax's position.
Cheers Peter
--------
Peter Armstrong
Auckland, New Zealand
DynAero MCR-4S (Do not shoot me :) ).
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394756#394756
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: 912 gearbox problems?? |
Hi Guys,
Decalin and TCP are both lead scavengers. They help keep the lead soft so more
of it blows out the exhaust and doesn't stick to your engine surfaces. It isn't
a cure all, but definitely helps. Decalin is not near as harsh as TCP so your
painted surfaces and is okay to keep in the cockpit if need be. Most of the
pilots I know have all switched over to Decalin from TCP. Rotax's position is
its okay, but have not tested it like they haveTCP because it has been around
longer and more available around different aaa of the world. I use and have used
Decalin for years when I travel and can't get 91 oct.
Other wise I only use 91 oct. and our fuel does have 10% ethanol.
--------
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=394765#394765
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