Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:25 AM - VS: Europa-List: Drop in RPM/Mag drop (Hans Joergen Danielsen)
2. 01:39 AM - Re: Fuel return line (Alan Carter)
3. 01:52 AM - Re: Re: Fuel return line (FLYaDIVE)
4. 02:04 AM - Re: Re: Fuel return line (FLYaDIVE)
5. 03:37 AM - Re: Re: Fuel return line (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
6. 04:31 AM - Re: Re: Fuel return line (Jim.kulbeth@insightbb.com)
7. 05:38 AM - VS: Europa-List: Drop in RPM/Mag drop (Hans Joergen Danielsen)
8. 01:54 PM - Re: Fuel return line (Alan Carter)
9. 02:08 PM - Re: Re: Fuel return line (Robert Borger)
10. 03:10 PM - Re: Fuel return line (Alan Carter)
Message 1
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| Subject: | VS: Europa-List: Drop in RPM/Mag drop |
Hi Rotax gurus:
I posted this problem on the Europa list, but was adviced to post it here. Hope
someone can be of help.
Rgds, Hans
> From: Hans Joergen Danielsen [hansjd@online.no]
> Sent: 2013-04-08 18:00:25 CEST
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Europa-List: Drop in RPM/Mag drop
>
> Engine Gurus!
>
> The engine (914) of the Europa I built, and subsequently sold is not up to acceptable
standards. The new owner experienced a drop in RPM combined with a cracling
noise in the head set. The Flydat also went temporarly black. He was barely
able to maintain altitude and on return to the airfield he switched on the
secondary fuel pump. After awhile the engine regained power. In the heat of
the moment he forgot to check the fuel pressure when the engine was faltering.
>
> During investigation we experienced a slight delay on initial switching of the
fuel pump - till we heard the familiar sound of the pump. During later switching
everything was normal.
>
> We have tried everything - jigling contacts with pump running, changing to another
switch on the panel and even checked the battery itself, to no avail. We
are about to run out of ideas.
>
> This may be a separate snag in itself. When running the engine the Mag drop was
unaceptably high - 400 rpm on Left and 300 rpm on Right magneto. We regapped
the plugs to 0.70 mm, but no effect. We noticed though that both plugs on Cylinder
1 were black with soot while all the others were normal grey. After cleaning
the plugs and running for a few more minutes, the plugs got all black again.
What could this be - a compression leak? I am ruling out the carburetor,
since the plugs on the other cylinder on the same side - which is being fed from
the same manifold - was normal grey.
>
> I'm tossing out these problems to all you knowledgeable people in the group.
Any with a good advice??
>
> Cheers, Hans - ex LN-HJD
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
>
>
> </b></font></pre>
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel return line |
Hi Roger.
OK, so vapor lock is possible with flowing fuel, but slow moving fuel.
To me if this happens it pretty serious as it will bring the aircraft down.
So why has nothing been do about it, What about something simple like a
cooling units clipped round a fuel line powered by the battery, 20 minutes to
fit , so cooler fuel and problem fixed, There must be some simple fix for this.
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398222#398222
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel return line |
Roger:
It appears that you misread my post. Almost everything you are saying I
said in my post. The only thing that is truly misread is your statement on
"U shape fitting". I did not say it will cure the problem. I said it
causes the problem. what is required for a Vapor Lock Failure, is a point
for the vapor to be trapped. A U shape, either Up or Down or a Pig Tail
will supply that failure point. The vapor has to have a place to expand
and NOT move to form a vapor lock.
Now, I can't comment on Packard's... They very well and probably did have
vapor lock issues. After all, they are only two steps beyond the invention
of the wheel. Back in those days my Dad was pushing pedals on a bicycle as
a Butcher's Boy doing deliveries and hitch-hiking rides on the back of a
horse drawn cart. We advanced a LITTLE since then.
Did you know: That back in the late 1800's early 1900's it took one hour to
go from one end of Manhattan Island to the other by Horse Drawn Cart.
Today with a 400 Horse Power Car it now takes 4 hours! Some advancement!
Barry
On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 8:13 PM, Roger Lee <ssadiver1@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Barry,
>
> I think you are only partially right and missed several qualifiers and
> exacerbating contributory issues.
>
> They talk about vapor lock in flight, but I have not personally seen it
> happen, but there are a thousand different planes designs out there and
> Rotax didn't just pull this out of a hat. It probably happened somewhere.
>
> Here are some of the problems. It isn't just fuel flow, it must have a
> sufficient quantity flowing so the heat doesn't have time to heat the fuel
> up to vaporize. Having exposed fuel lines without fire sleeve not only
> leaves the fire danger on the table, but allows for more heat to the fuel.
> The Rotax or a small size engine may not flow enough fuel and if the engine
> is encased in a cowl and has a lack of or poor air flow and the fuel flow
> gets reduced and the fuel sets long enough in the fuel line vapor can
> happen and the fuel will be flowing.
>
>
> Vapor lock can happen when an engine is running with fuel flow. My Dad's
> old Packard used to get vapor lock especially going up into the mountains
> at a slow pace and getting hotter than normal or an engine with a reduced
> cooling air flow. It isn't just whether fuel is flowing it depends on the
> quantity that flows. If the quantity is very small, but still flowing and
> in an excessively hot area it can absolutely vapor lock, just like the old
> cars. Fuel flow quantity is the key and the enclosed environment plus heat
> becomes the next problem. I usually don't see vapor lock while flying and
> most never will, but I absolutely see it all the time after a plane has
> landed and sat for 30+ minutes. Then on start up the fuel pressure is 1-1.5
> psi until the cooler fuel flows into the upper fuel lines. In a tightly
> cowed engine the heat is higher with no fuel flow right after shut down.
> That said I haven't seen an engine cough because of it yet. Putting just a
> Tee in is really not a re-ci!
> rculation line. It must have a restrictor in place otherwise you wouldn't
> have any fuel pressure. Vapor lock seems to happen more on the ground and
> things aren't cooling as well and there is less fuel flow. A "U" shape
> fitting won't guarantee or eliminate vapor lock. As the fuel sits in the
> hot environment more vapor can form and as it expands it will over come the
> "U" fitting area and expand into the hoses. It all depends on the heat
> amount, the fuel line surface area, insulating factors( i.e. fire sleeve),
> air flow for cooling and fuel flow quantity.
>
> After sitting on the ground and starting up with vapor in the lines, then
> usually a taxi out to a runway will take care of the issue.
>
> --------
> Roger Lee
> Tucson, Az.
> Light Sport Repairman - Maintenance Rated
> Rotax Repair Center - Heavy Maint. Rated
> Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
> Cell 520-349-7056
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398196#398196
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel return line |
Allen:
Somethings have been done about it.
Aluminum fuel lines.
TEFLON fuel lines.
Fire sleeves.
Better designed feed systems.
Better designed under the cowl air flow systems.
And an instruction book on what and what not to do... AC43-13.
Problem is we refuse to learn from history so you will be doomed to repeat
history. Each generation thinks they know better than the past generation.
You want to invent a clip on air conditioner that will install in 20
minutes YET! Be a SIMPLE FIX!?! I love your irony.
Barry
On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 4:39 AM, Alan Carter <alancarteresq@onetel.net>wrote:
> alancarteresq@onetel.net>
>
> Hi Roger.
> OK, so vapor lock is possible with flowing fuel, but slow moving fuel.
> To me if this happens it pretty serious as it will bring the aircraft down.
> So why has nothing been do about it, What about something simple like a
> cooling units clipped round a fuel line powered by the battery, 20 minutes
> to
> fit , so cooler fuel and problem fixed, There must be some simple fix for
> this.
>
> Alan
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel return line |
There is a simple fix:=0AFit the fuel return as Rotax recommend and recircu
late the fuel.=0AGraham=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0A F
rom: Alan Carter <alancarteresq@onetel.net>=0ATo: rotaxengines-list@matroni
cs.com =0ASent: Tuesday, 9 April 2013, 9:39=0ASubject: RotaxEngines-List: R
rter" <alancarteresq@onetel.net>=0A=0AHi Roger.=0AOK, so vapor lock is poss
ible with flowing fuel, but slow moving fuel.=0ATo me if this happens it pr
etty serious as it will bring the aircraft down.=0ASo why has nothing been
do about it, What about something simple like a =0Acooling units clipped ro
und a fuel line powered by the battery, 20 minutes to=0Afit , so cooler fue
l and problem fixed, There must be some simple fix for this.=0A=0AAlan=0A
=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/v
===========
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel return line |
Hi Guys,
Just a short comment. I have read all of the blogs on the vapor locking pro
blem and the only time I have experienced vapor lock was on the ground with c
ertified aircraft and in those instances it was very hot and I stopped for f
uel enroute. I have two aircraft, one with a Jabiru and one Rotax. Both hav
e the fuel return back to the tank. Neither have ever experienced vapor loc
k no matter the condition and I depart airports that are from sea level to 8
000 ft in up to 110 degrees F. Maybe the reason is my fuel is cooler sin
ce it has farther to recirculate.
By the way what started this particular blog. Did someone experience this or
was it a hypothetical question?
Regards
Jimmy
On Apr 7, 2013, at 18:45, "Sacha" <uuccio@gmail.com> wrote:
> My fuel return line only goes back to the gascolator but I=99
m hoping it=99s enough as it is at the bottom of the cowling and shoul
d get decent cooling from the airflow.
>
> I read Transport Canada=99s piece on using Mogas in aviation and the
y say that vapor lock problems can occur more easily if you use winter fuel (
which has a lower vaporization temp) in the warmer months. Not sure if the
re are different grades of fuel in winter/summer in the UK - certainly does
n=99t seem like there is any need for =9Csummer=9D fuel th
is year so far :-(
>
> From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengi
nes-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Harrison
> Sent: Sunday, 07 April, 2013 23:01
> To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Fuel return line
>
> Thanks Graham .........I was beginning to think I was having a bad dream !
Me too over the M1 from Halfpenny Green back to Wickenby, mind you it was
Jabiru originated but no one will convince me anything else and nothing els
e found after exhaustive checks and re-checks.
> As far as I=99m concerned there was no BS involved. To say there
=99s no such thing is misleading in the extreme. The return line must go bac
k into the Europa Tank via the reserve supply side ensuring only the cooles
t fuel goes forward.
> Best regards
> Bob Harrison. (Survived 1000 hours but would never boast about that before
a flight ! Also only about half of that was with the Jabiru.)
>
> From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengi
nes-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of GRAHAM SINGLETON
> Sent: 07 April 2013 22:25
> To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Fuel return line
>
> Vapour lock certainly does occur. I know of several instances, one of whic
h resulted in a written off aircraft. It happens when the
> engine driven fuel pump gets heated by the engine oil and then heats the f
uel. Low fuel flow rate such as when taxiing or waiting for air traffic on t
he ground
> can vaporize the fuel, especially Mogas. The fuel return Rotax recommend k
eeps more fuel flowing through the system which helps cool the pump and ensu
res cold fuel when you need it for high power.
> Most carburetor installations in cars have a fuel return line for the same
reasons.
> Graham
> From: FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com>
> To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sunday, 7 April 2013, 19:08
> Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Re: Fuel return line
>
> Sacha:
>
> You have some great thought provoking questions. I hope some are provoked
.
> Fire sleeves or One piece Molded Teflon fuel lines are the way to go.
> You always want to do all you can to keep extra heat from fuel and oil lin
es.
> BUT! Where did this Old Wives Tail of Vapor Lock come from? It is a BUNC
H OF BUNK!
> The "T" fitting does NOTHING for Vapor Lock... High Pressure does NOTHING t
o prevent Vapor Lock. Well, almost nothing - It corrects Pilot/Builder erro
r.
> Vapor Lock happens ON THE GROUND and is experienced usually at start up an
d sometimes in the air, immediately during or after rotation.
> Vapor Lock can occur with MoGAs or AvGas.
> It is more of a POOR PILOT SHUTDOWN PROCEDURE that anything else.
> And since we are talking Home Built Planes and Self Proclaimed Engineers -
- Builder error.
> So, what does the "T" fitting do? Well, the history goes way back to the 1
960's... Electric home made Fuel Pumps were being used on Carbureted engine
s. And the engines were FLOODING like crazy. Flooding, Fires, Poor Starts (
if at all), Dying when the throttle was floored and Low HP. All because of
TOO MUCH Fuel Pressure Pushing the Carburetor's intake valve off the seat a
nd flooding the carb.
> So, how do you get more fuel to the carb so it does not go LEAN? You do a
whole lot of pressure testing and engineering - BUT! These were HOME MADE
FUEL PUMPS - And Manufacturer made Carbs. Transducers were not around then
. It was too costly to try to figure out how many GPH and How much Fuel Pre
ssure would work,and what size spring to use... Too many variables.
> The QUICK and EASY and VERY Effective solution... Put a "T" fitting in th
e line and the excess pressure and excess fuel is returned to the fuel tank.
> The Carb takes what it needs - Has a steady supply of fuel and does NOT go
lean no matter how fast you hit the throttle.
> No Smoke and Mirrors, No ridiculous Vapor Lock theories. But, hell, this i
s aviation so everybody just re-invents the wheel with their own ideas.
>
> I
>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
>
> http://forums.matronics.com
>
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RotaxEngines-List
> http://forums.matronics.com
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | VS: Europa-List: Drop in RPM/Mag drop |
> From: Hans Joergen Danielsen [hansjd@online.no]
> Sent: 2013-04-09 10:24:17 CEST
> To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> Subject: VS: Europa-List: Drop in RPM/Mag drop
>
> Hi Rotax gurus:
>
> I posted this problem on the Europa list, but was adviced to post it here. Hope
someone can be of help.
>
> Rgds, Hans
>
>
>
> > From: Hans Joergen Danielsen [hansjd@online.no]
> > Sent: 2013-04-08 18:00:25 CEST
> > To: europa-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Europa-List: Drop in RPM/Mag drop
> >
> > Engine Gurus!
> >
> > The engine (914) of the Europa I built, and subsequently sold is not up to
acceptable standards. The new owner experienced a drop in RPM combined with a
cracling noise in the head set. The Flydat also went temporarly black. He was
barely able to maintain altitude and on return to the airfield he switched on
the secondary fuel pump. After awhile the engine regained power. In the heat of
the moment he forgot to check the fuel pressure when the engine was faltering.
> >
> > During investigation we experienced a slight delay on initial switching of
the fuel pump - till we heard the familiar sound of the pump. During later switching
everything was normal.
> >
> > We have tried everything - jigling contacts with pump running, changing to
another switch on the panel and even checked the battery itself, to no avail.
We are about to run out of ideas.
> >
> > This may be a separate snag in itself. When running the engine the Mag drop
was unaceptably high - 400 rpm on Left and 300 rpm on Right magneto. We regapped
the plugs to 0.70 mm, but no effect. We noticed though that both plugs on
Cylinder 1 were black with soot while all the others were normal grey. After cleaning
the plugs and running for a few more minutes, the plugs got all black
again. What could this be - a compression leak? I am ruling out the carburetor,
since the plugs on the other cylinder on the same side - which is being fed
from the same manifold - was normal grey.
> >
> > I'm tossing out these problems to all you knowledgeable people in the group.
Any with a good advice??
> >
> > Cheers, Hans - ex LN-HJD
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > <pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
> >
> >
> > </b></font></pre>
<pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel return line |
Hi All.
I can see the fire hoses on the metal fuel lines above the engine,
How can i tell if have the return or buy pass fuel line is already installed ?
I take it this is not part of the standard build ,914 built 2000.
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398270#398270
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel return line |
Alan,
If you have a 914, there should be a fuel return line as it is required
for the 914 installation.
There should be a fuel return line coming off the fuel pressure
regulator returning to the starboard side of the fuel tank.
Go to Europa-Aircraft.com > Builder Assistance > Builders Manuals >
Rotax 914 Installation for details.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop.
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger@mac.com
On Apr 9, 2013, at 3:54 PM, Alan Carter <alancarteresq@onetel.net>
wrote:
<alancarteresq@onetel.net>
>
> Hi All.
> I can see the fire hoses on the metal fuel lines above the engine,
> How can i tell if have the return or buy pass fuel line is already
installed ?
> I take it this is not part of the standard build ,914 built 2000.
> Alan
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel return line |
Hi Bob.
I glad i have one, i have an inspector coming to see the aircraft and hoping he
will give me a few pointer as im a bit of a green horn.
Alan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=398282#398282
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