---------------------------------------------------------- RotaxEngines-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 12/16/14: 3 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:25 PM - Engine boosting (rparigoris) 2. 04:45 PM - Re: Engine boosting (Rob Housman) 3. 07:06 PM - Re: Engine boosting (Keith Ashcraft) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:25:51 PM PST US Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Engine boosting From: "rparigoris" Hi Group I have a 914. The Garett Air Cooled Turbo that the 914 uses has been around for some time (I think it is very close to the one on my 1983 GLT50 (245) Volvo Turbo Wagon). Curiosity question: Can a "much more better" designed air pump reduce heating of air? I was at the New York Bike show over the weekend. One bike really caught my eye: A Kawasaki H2(R). It's a track bike with a H2 model that will be street legal (I'm sure less powerful). Anyway the H2R has a 1,000cc Super Charged engine that is claimed to produce 300hp. 300hp per liter, quite impressive. Specifications are still a bit vague, but 14K may be close to redline? Anyway supposedly Kawasaki did their homework (drawing from their affiliates that know about turbine design) and their H2R design uses ~ a 2.5" diameter centrifugal compressor with the larger stage being an 18 blade design. It is driven from the crankshaft via chain off crank, then planetary gears that can spin turbine up to 140,000rpm, spewing out air centrifugally at up to a little more than 1,000mph. Just a note, the bike I saw (and heard run) had single speed gearing, but patent Kawasaki has is for 1,2 or 3 speed. 3 speed would make for a lot of air at lower rpms (or high altitude!). The gearing on the single speed was a little under 10 to 1 of crank speed. The interesting thing is it doesn't have an inter-cooler. Kawasaki mentions it doesn't need an inter-cooler because the "miracle shaped blades) make less heat than if it were traditionally shaped (whatever that means". The super-charger is at the rear of the engine and it has an aluminium combiner/air-box sitting on top of the engine. I don't know much about fluid dynamics. Can anyone shed some light: If a more efficient design is had for a compressor that compresses air to boost intake pressure to an engine, give me an idea of how much less heat might be produced. I know on my 1983 Volvo, it had a 4 cylinder engine with a 2,300cc displacement. Stock out of the factory without an inter-cooler the turbo would raise air temp as much as 145 degrees F. If you installed the factory offered inter-cooler, instead of raising the air temp going into your engine 145F, it would only raise the air temp 45F. The inter-cooler came with a device that would wait until you got to 3,750rpm, then it would increase boost. Sincerely Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=435789#435789 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:45:23 PM PST US From: "Rob Housman" Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Engine boosting According to the "ideal gas law" (which is a pretty good approximation for air at the pressure in the intake manifold) PV = nRT so no matter what kind of compressor/turbo is used, for a given amount of compression there is a predictable change in temperature. Of course, if there is a difference in the inefficiency of the turbos being compared that could make a difference but I suspect that the differences will be minor compared to the theoretical temperature change. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, California Europa XS Rotax 914 S/N A070 Airframe complete Avionics in progress -----Original Message----- From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rparigoris Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2014 3:25 PM Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Engine boosting --> Hi Group I have a 914. The Garett Air Cooled Turbo that the 914 uses has been around for some time (I think it is very close to the one on my 1983 GLT50 (245) Volvo Turbo Wagon). Curiosity question: Can a "much more better" designed air pump reduce heating of air? I was at the New York Bike show over the weekend. One bike really caught my eye: A Kawasaki H2(R). It's a track bike with a H2 model that will be street legal (I'm sure less powerful). Anyway the H2R has a 1,000cc Super Charged engine that is claimed to produce 300hp. 300hp per liter, quite impressive. Specifications are still a bit vague, but 14K may be close to redline? Anyway supposedly Kawasaki did their homework (drawing from their affiliates that know about turbine design) and their H2R design uses ~ a 2.5" diameter centrifugal compressor with the larger stage being an 18 blade design. It is driven from the crankshaft via chain off crank, then planetary gears that can spin turbine up to 140,000rpm, spewing out air centrifugally at up to a little more than 1,000mph. Just a note, the bike I saw (and heard run) had single speed gearing, but patent Kawasaki has is for 1,2 or 3 speed. 3 speed would make for a lot of air at lower rpms (or high altitude!). The gearing on the single speed was a little under 10 to 1 of crank speed. The interesting thing is it doesn't have an inter-cooler. Kawasaki mentions it doesn't need an inter-cooler because the "miracle shaped blades) make less heat than if it were traditionally shaped (whatever that means". The super-charger is at the rear of the engine and it has an aluminium combiner/air-box sitting on top of the engine. I don't know much about fluid dynamics. Can anyone shed some light: If a more efficient design is had for a compressor that compresses air to boost intake pressure to an engine, give me an idea of how much less heat might be produced. I know on my 1983 Volvo, it had a 4 cylinder engine with a 2,300cc displacement. Stock out of the factory without an inter-cooler the turbo would raise air temp as much as 145 degrees F. If you installed the factory offered inter-cooler, instead of raising the air temp going into your engine 145F, it would only raise the air temp 45F. The inter-cooler came with a device that would wait until you got to 3,750rpm, then it would increase boost. Sincerely Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=435789#435789 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:06:20 PM PST US From: Keith Ashcraft Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Engine boosting Rob, Just FYI. Here is a link to a company that is using a 912 and 912S, a centrifugal blower, and getting around 25hp to 45hp extra. http://www.flygas.info/en/news-en.html Keith ********************************************************************************** -------------------------------------------- On Tue, 12/16/14, Rob Housman wrote: Subject: RE: RotaxEngines-List: Engine boosting To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2014, 5:44 PM --> RotaxEngines-List message posted by: "Rob Housman" According to the "ideal gas law" (which is a pretty good approximation for air at the pressure in the intake manifold) PV = nRT so no matter what kind of compressor/turbo is used, for a given amount of compression there is a predictable change in temperature. Of course, if there is a difference in the inefficiency of the turbos being compared that could make a difference but I suspect that the differences will be minor compared to the theoretical temperature change. Best regards, Rob Housman Irvine, California Europa XS Rotax 914 S/N A070 Airframe complete Avionics in progress -----Original Message----- From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rparigoris Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2014 3:25 PM To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com Subject: RotaxEngines-List: Engine boosting --> Hi Group I have a 914. The Garett Air Cooled Turbo that the 914 uses has been around for some time (I think it is very close to the one on my 1983 GLT50 (245) Volvo Turbo Wagon). Curiosity question: Can a "much more better" designed air pump reduce heating of air? I was at the New York Bike show over the weekend. One bike really caught my eye: A Kawasaki H2(R). It's a track bike with a H2 model that will be street legal (I'm sure less powerful). Anyway the H2R has a 1,000cc Super Charged engine that is claimed to produce 300hp. 300hp per liter, quite impressive. Specifications are still a bit vague, but 14K may be close to redline? Anyway supposedly Kawasaki did their homework (drawing from their affiliates that know about turbine design) and their H2R design uses ~ a 2.5" diameter centrifugal compressor with the larger stage being an 18 blade design. It is driven from the crankshaft via chain off crank, then planetary gears that can spin turbine up to 140,000rpm, spewing out air centrifugally at up to a little more than 1,000mph. Just a note, the bike I saw (and heard run) had single speed gearing, but patent Kawasaki has is for 1,2 or 3 speed. 3 speed would make for a lot of air at lower rpms (or high altitude!). The gearing on the single speed was a little under 10 to 1 of crank speed. The interesting thing is it doesn't have an inter-cooler. Kawasaki mentions it doesn't need an inter-cooler because the "miracle shaped blades) make less heat than if it were traditionally shaped (whatever that means". The super-charger is at the rear of the engine and it has an aluminium combiner/air-box sitting on top of the engine. I don't know much about fluid dynamics. Can anyone shed some light: If a more efficient design is had for a compressor that compresses air to boost intake pressure to an engine, give me an idea of how much less heat might be produced. I know on my 1983 Volvo, it had a 4 cylinder engine with a 2,300cc displacement. Stock out of the factory without an inter-cooler the turbo would raise air temp as much as 145 degrees F. If you installed the factory offered inter-cooler, instead of raising the air temp going into your engine 145F, it would only raise the air temp 45F. The inter-cooler came with a device that would wait until you got to 3,750rpm, then it would increase boost. Sincerely Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=435789#435789 Lists This Month -- Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) Raiser. 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