Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:28 PM - Re: Rough running 912 UL (Hugh McKay)
2. 06:30 PM - Re: Rough running 912 UL (John Hauck)
3. 06:46 PM - Re: Rough running 912 UL (Larry Edson)
4. 06:55 PM - Re: Rough running 912 UL (Lowell Fitt)
5. 07:21 PM - Re: Rough running 912 UL (FLYaDIVE)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Rough running 912 UL |
Rick, Vernon, DHeal, Jeff, et al
I changed all eight plugs hoping that may take care of the rough engine
operation but it had no effect. The engine behaved and ran the same as
before changing the plugs. The engine starts fine, however after
starting and closing the choke holding 2000 to 2200 rpm the engine is
randomly =93skipping=94. Through out the operating range (2200 rpm to
4000 rpm) you can feel the engine missing randomly. With the engine
operating at 4000 rpm, when one of the ignition switches is =93killed=94
the engine suddenly looses about 1000 rpm and shakes violently. It does
exactly the same thing when the other ignition switch is killed. So, the
plugs are not the problem. From the behavior of the engine I can=92t
determine if the problem is in the ignition (electrical), or in the
fuel/air mixture (carburetor). I did notice that the old plugs were
black and sooty indicating a rich fuel mixture, but that was nothing new
as I have always flown with that condition (i.e. the carbs have never
been touched since new and have given me absolutely no problem in the
700+ hours that are on the engine since new).
Still don=92t know where to focus my attention next to identify the
problem. I guess my next step is to make sure the carbs are balanced. If
they are, and the problem remains it must be electrical rather than a
carb problem
Hugh G. McKay III, P.E. Fellow, L.M. ASCE
Senior Consultant
Worldwide Engineering Inc.
4090 North NC Hwy. 16
Denver, NC 28037
Ph. 704-661-8271
Fax 704-483-5466
email hgmckay@bellsouth.net
http://www.wwegeo.com
From: Hugh McKay
Sent: Monday, September 05, 2016 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rough running 912 UL
Rick,
The two Ducati ignition boxes have been on the engine since 2007.
Engine and boxes were brand new then. How do I know if they were the
=93bad ones=94? They have over 700 hours operation with out a problem.
Hugh G. McKay III, P.E. Fellow, L.M. ASCE
Senior Consultant
Worldwide Engineering Inc.
4090 North NC Hwy. 16
Denver, NC 28037
Ph. 704-661-8271
Fax 704-483-5466
email hgmckay@bellsouth.net
http://www.wwegeo.com
From: Richard Girard
Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2016 9:54 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rough running 912 UL
Have you checked the ignition boxes to see if they are the known bad
ones? Does the engine exhibit any trouble starting? Have you checked for
a broken spark plug? When was the last time you trimmed and reseated the
plug wires at each end (they screw on)?
Rick Girard
On Sat, Sep 3, 2016 at 6:14 PM, Hugh McKay <hgmckay@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
Started to fly my Allegro 2000 (912 UL engine) today and suddenly my
engine is running rough. On some earlier flights I noticed the engine
wanting to =9Cburp=9D or =9Cskip=9D a little bit
at idle and low rpms (2000 to 2500), however at higher rpms it seemed to
smooth out. I had no symptoms while in flight.
=C2
However, today when I started the engine it again was
=9Cskipping=9D at low rpms. Went through the check list and
came to the point where I checked both ignitions at 4000 rpm. Ran the
engine up to 4000 rpm and turned off one ignition. The engine suddenly
ran very rough. When I checked the other ignition the same thing
happened. To say the least I did not fly. took it back to the hanger and
parked it.
=C2
Any suggestions as to what the problem may be?
=C2
Hugh G. McKay III
Denver, NC 28037
Allegro 2000
Rotax 912 UL
780 hours TSN
=C2
Ph. 704-661-8271
email hgmckay@bellsouth.net
--
=9CBlessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the
light.=9D =C2 =C2 Groucho Marx
Message 2
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| Subject: | Rough running 912 UL |
For what it is worth.
Summer of 1994, I was flying my 80 hp 912 on a Kolb MKIII to
Deadhorse/Prudhoe Bay, Alaska, for the first time from Alabama. Engine
was nearly new with a flight to Sun and Fun prior to departing north.
Soon as I got into Yukon Territory and cooler temps down in the 40s and
50s, I started having a rough running engine and loss of power. I made
it to Deadhorse and back to Alabama without solving my problem. Soon as
I got back to warm weather the problem disappeared. That winter I
discovered the same problem. For some reason I pulled the enricher
while flying in the mid-4000 rpm range. When I did, the rpm increased
200 rpm and the engine cleaned right up. When I pulled the enricher off
the engine lost 200 rpm and ran rough. On the ground I raised the fuel
needles one notch. That cured my problem.
As an added note. My spark plugs always looked like they were running
rich, black and sooty, when in fact they were running just the opposite,
very lean.
Something has to change to make a good running engine run badly.
Usually, it is something obvious that we don't consider as a possible
problem.
Since 1994, I have had two other engines on my MKIII, both 912ULS's.
Never encountered the mixture problem with either of those engines which
also pushed the MKIII to the Arctic Ocean and cold temps.
john h
mkIII
Titus, Alabama
From: owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rotaxengines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hugh
McKay
Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2016 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rough running 912 UL
Rick, Vernon, DHeal, Jeff, et al
I changed all eight plugs hoping that may take care of the rough engine
operation but it had no effect. The engine behaved and ran the same as
before changing the plugs. The engine starts fine, however after
starting and closing the choke holding 2000 to 2200 rpm the engine is
randomly =9Cskipping=9D. Through out the operating range
(2200 rpm to 4000 rpm) you can feel the engine missing randomly. With
the engine operating at 4000 rpm, when one of the ignition switches is
=9Ckilled=9D the engine suddenly looses about 1000 rpm and
shakes violently. It does exactly the same thing when the other ignition
switch is killed. So, the plugs are not the problem. From the behavior
of the engine I can=99t determine if the problem is in the
ignition (electrical), or in the fuel/air mixture (carburetor). I did
notice that the old plugs were black and sooty indicating a rich fuel
mixture, but that was nothing new as I have always flown with that
condition (i.e. the carbs have never been touched since new and have
given me absolutely no problem in the 700+ hours that are on the engine
since new).
Still don=99t know where to focus my attention next to identify
the problem. I guess my next step is to make sure the carbs are
balanced. If they are, and the problem remains it must be electrical
rather than a carb problem
Hugh G. McKay III, P.E. Fellow, L.M. ASCE
Senior Consultant
Worldwide Engineering Inc.
4090 North NC Hwy. 16
Denver, NC 28037
Ph. 704-661-8271
Fax 704-483-5466
email hgmckay@bellsouth.net
http://www.wwegeo.com
From: Hugh McKay <mailto:hgmckay@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Monday, September 05, 2016 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rough running 912 UL
Rick,
The two Ducati ignition boxes have been on the engine since 2007.
Engine and boxes were brand new then. How do I know if they were the
=9Cbad ones=9D? They have over 700 hours operation with out
a problem.
Hugh G. McKay III, P.E. Fellow, L.M. ASCE
Senior Consultant
Worldwide Engineering Inc.
4090 North NC Hwy. 16
Denver, NC 28037
Ph. 704-661-8271
Fax 704-483-5466
email hgmckay@bellsouth.net
http://www.wwegeo.com
From: Richard Girard <mailto:aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2016 9:54 PM
Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rough running 912 UL
Have you checked the ignition boxes to see if they are the known bad
ones? Does the engine exhibit any trouble starting? Have you checked for
a broken spark plug? When was the last time you trimmed and reseated the
plug wires at each end (they screw on)?
Rick Girard
On Sat, Sep 3, 2016 at 6:14 PM, Hugh McKay <hgmckay@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
Started to fly my Allegro 2000 (912 UL engine) today and suddenly my
engine is running rough. On some earlier flights I noticed the engine
wanting to =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93burp=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D or
=C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93skip=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D a little bit at idle and
low rpms (2000 to 2500), however at higher rpms it seemed to smooth out.
I had no symptoms while in flight.
=C3=82
However, today when I started the engine it again was
=C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93skipping=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D at low rpms. Went
through the check list and came to the point where I checked both
ignitions at 4000 rpm. Ran the engine up to 4000 rpm and turned off one
ignition. The engine suddenly ran very rough. When I checked the other
ignition the same thing happened. To say the least I did not fly. took
it back to the hanger and parked it.
=C3=82
Any suggestions as to what the problem may be?
=C3=82
Hugh G. McKay III
Denver, NC 28037
Allegro 2000
Rotax 912 UL
780 hours TSN
=C3=82
Ph. 704-661-8271
email hgmckay@bellsouth.net
--
=C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the
light.=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D =C3=82 =C3=82
<http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43244.Groucho_Marx> Groucho Marx
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Rough running 912 UL |
Hugh,
I assume that your carburetors have been rebuilt recently since your engine h
as 700+ hours on it. Rotax recommends that the Bing carbs be rebuilt every 2
00 hours. During my carb rebuild at 200 hours, a number of the seals and se
ats were found to be hard and worn. Once they were replaced I felt that my o
verall performance improved.
I wish you luck with figuring this out. Please keep us posted.
Larry Edson
N4362C
Sent from my iPad
> On Sep 7, 2016, at 8:25 PM, Hugh McKay <hgmckay@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> Rick, Vernon, DHeal, Jeff, et al
>
> I changed all eight plugs hoping that may take care of the rough engine op
eration but it had no effect. The engine behaved and ran the same as before c
hanging the plugs. The engine starts fine, however after starting and closin
g the choke holding 2000 to 2200 rpm the engine is randomly =9Cskippin
g=9D. Through out the operating range (2200 rpm to 4000 rpm) you can f
eel the engine missing randomly. With the engine operating at 4000 rpm, when
one of the ignition switches is =9Ckilled=9D the engine suddenl
y looses about 1000 rpm and shakes violently. It does exactly the same thing
when the other ignition switch is killed. So, the plugs are not the problem
. =46rom the behavior of the engine I can=99t determine if the problem
is in the ignition (electrical), or in the fuel/air mixture (carburetor). I
did notice that the old plugs were black and sooty indicating a rich fuel m
ixture, but that was nothing new as I have always flown with that condition (
i.e. the carbs have never been touched since new and have given me absolutel
y no problem in the 700+ hours that are on the engine since new).
>
> Still don=99t know where to focus my attention next to identify the p
roblem. I guess my next step is to make sure the carbs are balanced. If they
are, and the problem remains it must be electrical rather than a carb probl
em
>
> Hugh G. McKay III, P.E. Fellow, L.M. ASCE
> Senior Consultant
> Worldwide Engineering Inc.
> 4090 North NC Hwy. 16
> Denver, NC 28037
>
> Ph. 704-661-8271
> Fax 704-483-5466
> email hgmckay@bellsouth.net
> http://www.wwegeo.com
>
> From: Hugh McKay
> Sent: Monday, September 05, 2016 3:17 PM
> To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rough running 912 UL
>
> Rick,
>
> The two Ducati ignition boxes have been on the engine since 2007. Engine a
nd boxes were brand new then. How do I know if they were the =9Cbad on
es=9D? They have over 700 hours operation with out a problem.
>
> Hugh G. McKay III, P.E. Fellow, L.M. ASCE
> Senior Consultant
> Worldwide Engineering Inc.
> 4090 North NC Hwy. 16
> Denver, NC 28037
>
> Ph. 704-661-8271
> Fax 704-483-5466
> email hgmckay@bellsouth.net
> http://www.wwegeo.com
>
> From: Richard Girard
> Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2016 9:54 PM
> To: rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rough running 912 UL
>
> Have you checked the ignition boxes to see if they are the known bad ones?
Does the engine exhibit any trouble starting? Have you checked for a broken
spark plug? When was the last time you trimmed and reseated the plug wires a
t each end (they screw on)?
>
> Rick Girard
>
>> On Sat, Sep 3, 2016 at 6:14 PM, Hugh McKay <hgmckay@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> Started to fly my Allegro 2000 (912 UL engine) today and suddenly my engi
ne is running rough. On some earlier flights I noticed the engine wanting to
=C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93burp=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D or =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93skip
=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D a little bit at idle and low rpms (2000 to 2500), howe
ver at higher rpms it seemed to smooth out. I had no symptoms while in fligh
t.
>> =C3=82
>> However, today when I started the engine it again was =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93
skipping=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D at low rpms. Went through the check list and c
ame to the point where I checked both ignitions at 4000 rpm. Ran the engine u
p to 4000 rpm and turned off one ignition. The engine suddenly ran very roug
h. When I checked the other ignition the same thing happened. To say the lea
st I did not fly. took it back to the hanger and parked it.
>> =C3=82
>> Any suggestions as to what the problem may be?
>> =C3=82
>> Hugh G. McKay III
>> Denver, NC 28037
>> Allegro 2000
>> Rotax 912 UL
>> 780 hours TSN
>> =C3=82
>> Ph. 704-661-8271
>> email hgmckay@bellsouth.net
>
>
>
> --
> =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the li
ght.=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D =C3=82 =C3=82 Groucho Marx
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Rough running 912 UL |
Definitely not an expert in any sense, but I would check the module
grounds. I would look to see if the grounds are run separately or are tied
together as a common ground. If they are together, I would separate them
in any event to give the true redundancy.
Lowell. 912 UL Kitfox IV,
On Sep 7, 2016 5:38 PM, "Hugh McKay" <hgmckay@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Rick, Vernon, DHeal, Jeff, et al
>
> I changed all eight plugs hoping that may take care of the rough engine
> operation but it had no effect. The engine behaved and ran the same as
> before changing the plugs. The engine starts fine, however after starting
> and closing the choke holding 2000 to 2200 rpm the engine is randomly
> =9Cskipping=9D. Through out the operating range (2200 rpm to
4000 rpm) you can
> feel the engine missing randomly. With the engine operating at 4000 rpm,
> when one of the ignition switches is =9Ckilled=9D the engine
suddenly looses
> about 1000 rpm and shakes violently. It does exactly the same thing when
> the other ignition switch is killed. So, the plugs are not the problem.
> From the behavior of the engine I can=99t determine if the problem
is in the
> ignition (electrical), or in the fuel/air mixture (carburetor). I did
> notice that the old plugs were black and sooty indicating a rich fuel
> mixture, but that was nothing new as I have always flown with that
> condition (i.e. the carbs have never been touched since new and have give
n
> me absolutely no problem in the 700+ hours that are on the engine since
> new).
>
> Still don=99t know where to focus my attention next to identify the
problem.
> I guess my next step is to make sure the carbs are balanced. If they are,
> and the problem remains it must be electrical rather than a carb problem
>
> Hugh G. McKay III, P.E. Fellow, L.M. ASCE
> Senior Consultant
> Worldwide Engineering Inc.
> 4090 North NC Hwy. 16
> Denver, NC 28037
>
> Ph. 704-661-8271
> Fax 704-483-5466
> email hgmckay@bellsouth.net
> http://www.wwegeo.com
>
> *From:* Hugh McKay <hgmckay@bellsouth.net>
> *Sent:* Monday, September 05, 2016 3:17 PM
> *To:* rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rough running 912 UL
>
> Rick,
>
> The two Ducati ignition boxes have been on the engine since 2007. Engine
> and boxes were brand new then. How do I know if they were the =9Cba
d ones=9D?
> They have over 700 hours operation with out a problem.
>
> Hugh G. McKay III, P.E. Fellow, L.M. ASCE
> Senior Consultant
> Worldwide Engineering Inc.
> 4090 North NC Hwy. 16
> Denver, NC 28037
>
> Ph. 704-661-8271
> Fax 704-483-5466
> email hgmckay@bellsouth.net
> http://www.wwegeo.com
>
> *From:* Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, September 03, 2016 9:54 PM
> *To:* rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rough running 912 UL
>
> Have you checked the ignition boxes to see if they are the known bad ones
?
> Does the engine exhibit any trouble starting? Have you checked for a brok
en
> spark plug? When was the last time you trimmed and reseated the plug wire
s
> at each end (they screw on)?
>
> Rick Girard
>
> On Sat, Sep 3, 2016 at 6:14 PM, Hugh McKay <hgmckay@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>> Started to fly my Allegro 2000 (912 UL engine) today and suddenly my
>> engine is running rough. On some earlier flights I noticed the engine
>> wanting to =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93burp=C3=A2=82=AC or =C3=A2=82=AC
=C5=93skip=C3=A2=82=AC a little bit at idle and low rpms (2000
>> to 2500), however at higher rpms it seemed to smooth out. I had no sympt
oms
>> while in flight.
>> =C3=82
>> However, today when I started the engine it again was =C3=A2=82=AC=C5
=93skipping=C3=A2=82=AC at
>> low rpms. Went through the check list and came to the point where I chec
ked
>> both ignitions at 4000 rpm. Ran the engine up to 4000 rpm and turned off
>> one ignition. The engine suddenly ran very rough. When I checked the oth
er
>> ignition the same thing happened. To say the least I did not fly. took i
t
>> back to the hanger and parked it.
>> =C3=82
>> Any suggestions as to what the problem may be?
>> =C3=82
>> Hugh G. McKay III
>> Denver, NC 28037
>> Allegro 2000
>> Rotax 912 UL
>> 780 hours TSN
>> =C3=82
>> Ph. 704-661-8271
>> email hgmckay@bellsouth.net
>>
>
>
> --
> =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the l
ight.=C3=A2=82=AC =C3=82 =C3=82 Groucho
> Marx <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43244.Groucho_Marx>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Rough running 912 UL |
LOL...
You are as much an "Expert" as ROTAX!!
On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 9:49 PM, Lowell Fitt <lcfitt3@gmail.com> wrote:
> Definitely not an expert in any sense, but I would check the module
> grounds. I would look to see if the grounds are run separately or are ti
ed
> together as a common ground. If they are together, I would separate them
> in any event to give the true redundancy.
> Lowell. 912 UL Kitfox IV,
>
> On Sep 7, 2016 5:38 PM, "Hugh McKay" <hgmckay@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>> Rick, Vernon, DHeal, Jeff, et al
>>
>> I changed all eight plugs hoping that may take care of the rough engine
>> operation but it had no effect. The engine behaved and ran the same as
>> before changing the plugs. The engine starts fine, however after startin
g
>> and closing the choke holding 2000 to 2200 rpm the engine is randomly
>> =9Cskipping=9D. Through out the operating range (2200 rpm to
4000 rpm) you can
>> feel the engine missing randomly. With the engine operating at 4000 rpm,
>> when one of the ignition switches is =9Ckilled=9D the engine
suddenly looses
>> about 1000 rpm and shakes violently. It does exactly the same thing when
>> the other ignition switch is killed. So, the plugs are not the problem.
>> From the behavior of the engine I can=99t determine if the problem
is in the
>> ignition (electrical), or in the fuel/air mixture (carburetor). I did
>> notice that the old plugs were black and sooty indicating a rich fuel
>> mixture, but that was nothing new as I have always flown with that
>> condition (i.e. the carbs have never been touched since new and have giv
en
>> me absolutely no problem in the 700+ hours that are on the engine since
>> new).
>>
>> Still don=99t know where to focus my attention next to identify th
e
>> problem. I guess my next step is to make sure the carbs are balanced. If
>> they are, and the problem remains it must be electrical rather than a ca
rb
>> problem
>>
>> Hugh G. McKay III, P.E. Fellow, L.M. ASCE
>> Senior Consultant
>> Worldwide Engineering Inc.
>> 4090 North NC Hwy. 16
>> Denver, NC 28037
>>
>> Ph. 704-661-8271
>> Fax 704-483-5466
>> email hgmckay@bellsouth.net
>> http://www.wwegeo.com
>>
>> *From:* Hugh McKay <hgmckay@bellsouth.net>
>> *Sent:* Monday, September 05, 2016 3:17 PM
>> *To:* rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
>> *Subject:* Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rough running 912 UL
>>
>> Rick,
>>
>> The two Ducati ignition boxes have been on the engine since 2007. Engin
e
>> and boxes were brand new then. How do I know if they were the =9Cb
ad ones=9D?
>> They have over 700 hours operation with out a problem.
>>
>> Hugh G. McKay III, P.E. Fellow, L.M. ASCE
>> Senior Consultant
>> Worldwide Engineering Inc.
>> 4090 North NC Hwy. 16
>> Denver, NC 28037
>>
>> Ph. 704-661-8271
>> Fax 704-483-5466
>> email hgmckay@bellsouth.net
>> http://www.wwegeo.com
>>
>> *From:* Richard Girard <aslsa.rng@gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Saturday, September 03, 2016 9:54 PM
>> *To:* rotaxengines-list@matronics.com
>> *Subject:* Re: RotaxEngines-List: Rough running 912 UL
>>
>> Have you checked the ignition boxes to see if they are the known bad
>> ones? Does the engine exhibit any trouble starting? Have you checked for
a
>> broken spark plug? When was the last time you trimmed and reseated the p
lug
>> wires at each end (they screw on)?
>>
>> Rick Girard
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 3, 2016 at 6:14 PM, Hugh McKay <hgmckay@bellsouth.net> wrote
:
>>
>>> Started to fly my Allegro 2000 (912 UL engine) today and suddenly my
>>> engine is running rough. On some earlier flights I noticed the engine
>>> wanting to =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93burp=C3=A2=82=AC or =C3=A2=82=AC
=C5=93skip=C3=A2=82=AC a little bit at idle and low rpms (2000
>>> to 2500), however at higher rpms it seemed to smooth out. I had no symp
toms
>>> while in flight.
>>> =C3=82
>>> However, today when I started the engine it again was =C3=A2=82=AC
=C5=93skipping=C3=A2=82=AC at
>>> low rpms. Went through the check list and came to the point where I che
cked
>>> both ignitions at 4000 rpm. Ran the engine up to 4000 rpm and turned of
f
>>> one ignition. The engine suddenly ran very rough. When I checked the ot
her
>>> ignition the same thing happened. To say the least I did not fly. took
it
>>> back to the hanger and parked it.
>>> =C3=82
>>> Any suggestions as to what the problem may be?
>>> =C3=82
>>> Hugh G. McKay III
>>> Denver, NC 28037
>>> Allegro 2000
>>> Rotax 912 UL
>>> 780 hours TSN
>>> =C3=82
>>> Ph. 704-661-8271
>>> email hgmckay@bellsouth.net
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the
light.=C3=A2=82=AC =C3=82 =C3=82 Groucho
>> Marx <http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/43244.Groucho_Marx>
>>
>>
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