Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:30 AM - Re: Taxes! (Neil Henderson)
2. 06:36 AM - Re: Re:Modeling clay (John Huft)
3. 06:58 AM - Re: Re: Stainless Steel Wool (Elsa & Henry)
4. 06:59 AM - Engines (Scott Spencer)
5. 07:46 AM - Fw: for sale O 320 E3D (Elsa & Henry)
6. 08:23 AM - Re: Modeling Clay (lm4@juno.com)
7. 08:41 AM - Re: Engines (Kyle Boatright)
8. 09:06 AM - Re: Alternative engines (Curt Reimer)
9. 09:34 AM - Re: Engines (Kenneth Beene)
10. 10:01 AM - Re: Alternative engines (Tedd McHenry)
11. 10:05 AM - Re: (apology) (rv6tc)
12. 10:11 AM - Weight of Hooker Harnesses for RV-8/A? (czechsix@juno.com)
13. 10:11 AM - Re: Modeling Clay (czechsix@juno.com)
14. 10:27 AM - Re: Re: MT-Propeller (Norman)
15. 10:53 AM - Re: Alternative engines (JRWillJR@aol.com)
16. 10:54 AM - Re: Rockets vs Van's (Norman)
17. 11:04 AM - Re: Taxes! (Norman)
18. 11:17 AM - Re: (apology) (Tedd McHenry)
19. 11:30 AM - Re: Modeling Clay (HCRV6@aol.com)
20. 11:52 AM - Nose Gear Leg/Eng Mount (KAKlewin@aol.com)
21. 11:57 AM - Re: (apology) (Eric Borduas)
22. 11:59 AM - Re: Taxes! (Tom Brandon)
23. 01:53 PM - Re:Alternate Engines (Joe & Jan Connell)
24. 01:53 PM - baggage floor and platenuts (Jeff Orear)
25. 02:20 PM - Re: baggage floor and platenuts (Ralph E. Capen)
26. 03:50 PM - Re: Re: MT-Propeller (LeastDrag93066@aol.com)
27. 03:59 PM - Engines...somewhat long! (Jim Duckett)
28. 04:17 PM - Re: baggage floor and platenuts (HCRV6@aol.com)
29. 04:24 PM - Re: Engines...somewhat long! (Bob Hassel)
30. 04:25 PM - Re: Alternative Powerplants et.al. (rotary cost vs lycoming) (WALTER KERR)
31. 04:36 PM - Re: Engines...somewhat long! (LarryRobertHelming)
32. 05:25 PM - priming (Gary)
33. 05:34 PM - Re: Engines...somewhat long! (JRWillJR@aol.com)
34. 07:21 PM - engine baffling RV6 S-cowl (Dave Ford)
35. 07:23 PM - Re: Engines...somewhat long! (LeastDrag93066@aol.com)
36. 07:35 PM - Rapco Vac Pump Mount questions (WCruiser1@aol.com)
37. 08:02 PM - Re: Rapco Vac Pump Mount questions (Paul Besing)
38. 08:08 PM - Re:Priming (Oldsfolks@aol.com)
39. 08:29 PM - Re: Rockets vs Van's (Bob Japundza)
40. 08:29 PM - engines (to really have the dream) (perfeng@3rivers.net)
41. 08:49 PM - Re: Engines...somewhat long! (Charlie Kuss)
42. 08:49 PM - Re: Nose Gear Leg/Eng Mount (Charlie Kuss)
43. 09:31 PM - Re: Engines...somewhat long! (Tracy Crook)
44. 09:38 PM - Re: Re: Rockets vs Van's (Larry Bowen)
45. 10:35 PM - Re: Re:Priming (WPAerial@aol.com)
46. 10:35 PM - Re: Engines...somewhat long! (Charlie Kuss)
47. 11:55 PM - Charlie Kuss (engines) (perfeng@3rivers.net)
Message 1
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Neil Henderson" <Neil.Mo51@btopenworld.com>
Think your self lucky and you don't live in Europe. I paid 17.5% VAT (Value Added
Tax) on my RV9A kit as well horrendous overseas shipping costs. Fortunately
aircraft parts are exempt from import duty else the cost would have been even
higher. In some other European countries the VAT is around 20%.
Have a nice day.
Neil Henderson (RV9 Finishing) England
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re:Modeling clay |
--> RV-List message posted by: "John Huft" <rv8tor@lazy8.net>
I would like to add a vote for Johnson's Paste Wax as a release agent. A
thick coat works better than electrical tape (which is much better than
masking tape), and is thinner too. You can buy enough for 10 airplanes for
$5. You can wax the clay too.
John, RV8 Pagosa Springs, CO
Still looking for RV pictures webmaster@lazy8.net
www.lazy8.net/rv8.html
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Phil
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re:Modeling clay
--> RV-List message posted by: Phil <sisson@mcleodusa.net>
Oldsfolks@aol.com wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com
>
> I got oil based modeling clay from Wal-Mart. Yuo could cover it with Saran
> Wrap before adding cloth & epoxy.
> I wrapped the gear legs with Saran Wrap before glasing the gear leg
> fairings in place & it popped right off.
> My .02c worth.
> do not archive
>
> RV-4 , N1191X , Flying Now
> Charleston, Arkansas
>
do not archive...I use oil based clay all the time.
Never a problem. I put masking tape down first, then the clay in any shape I
want, then I cover it with masking tape which also acts as the release.
Phil
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Stainless Steel Wool |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Elsa & Henry" <elsa-henry@darlor-watch.com>
Your friendly Amway dealer would have it. They sell a SS scouring pad
Cheers!! Henry Hore
Message 4
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Scott Spencer" <scottaspencer@att.net>
Does anyone have any experience with the O-320H model and also on the cost (I know
it will vary depending on Jug etc) of doing a rebuild yourself. By this I
mean owner does disassembly, cleaning and reassembly but everything gets shipped
out for inspection and work at regular shops.
Thanks
RV9A
Scott
Message 5
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| Subject: | for sale O 320 E3D |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Elsa & Henry" <elsa-henry@darlor-watch.com>
Rollie & Rod, if the message below refers to the prop bushings on the
crankshaft flange, not to worry. Those can be easily changed to 7/16". I had
a big surprise when I de-cacooned my O-320! Van's engine listing in the
manual shows the -E2D as having 3/8" bushings, so I ordered my Sensenich
prop accordingly. Then when it came to hang the prop---Damn!-- those are
7/16" bushings! The overhaul shop sent me 3/8" ones, with instructions how
to change them: basically using a 1/2" drive socket of size to fit over the
bushing flange at rear, and then using a bolt, washers and nut to force it
out. Then reversing the process to install the new bushing. "No Problema"!
They told me that some Pipers with that engine had 7/16" bushings, so I must
have received one of those! "cest la vie"-----Cheers!!----Happy
holidays!!----Henry Hore
----- Original Message -----
From: <Rquinn1@aol.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: for sale O 320 E3D
> --> RV-List message posted by: Rquinn1@aol.com
>
> Terry, I looked in my Vans catalog and you are right the bolt size is in
the
> model number you sent, however it is a 3/8" and I need a 7/16". I also
need
> a spinner kit. If Bruce does decide to break up the set I will be
> interested.
> We are getting along great. Thanks for asking.
> Rollie & Rod
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Modeling Clay |
--> RV-List message posted by: lm4@juno.com
I have not done it yet but when I get there I expect I will try making
the first layer dacron. Then when the work dries I will be able to rip
off the dacron and have a clean surface.
Larry Mac Donald
Rochester N.Y.
do not archive
On Sat, 7 Dec 2002 14:47:21 -0500 "Ernest Kells"
<ernest.kells@sympatico.ca> writes:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Ernest Kells"
> <ernest.kells@sympatico.ca>
>
> First question: I have decided to make my own intersection
> fairings.
> Instead of the oil-based modeling clay mentioned by Vans and the
> archives
> for the molds, has anyone tried the normal (water-based) modeling
> clay that
> is readily available - and cheap? First, I am considering mixing a
> food-grade oil into the clay, replacing the water - stirring well in
> small
> batches for each fairing. Second, I am considering laying up the
> water-based clay, then rubbing a coating of oil on the surface for
> no
> sticking. Would one of these methods work?? Working with
> fiber-glass is a
> little bit of hell on Earth.
> Second question: I would like to repair a few riveting dings.
> Would resin
> mixed with flox - or milled fiber work after really roughing up the
> skin? I
> understand that it would dry very hard. Although sanding may be
> really
> tough, I only have very few of these so this wouldn't be a problem.
> It
> would be great to hide these very few errors with something that
> won't
> shrink, crack, fall off, etc. Thanks.
> Ernest Kells - RV-9A O235-N2C, Wood Prop
> Finish Kit 85% Complete
>
>
>
> _->
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright" <kyle.boatright@adelphia.net>
I spent about $6k doing a rebuild as you describe on an 0-320 D2J.
There is plenty on the H model 0-320 in the archives. Some people like it,
some people hate it. You won't find consensus on this issue. You'll just
need to evaluate the info and make an informed decision.
KB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Spencer" <scottaspencer@att.net>
Subject: RV-List: Engines
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Scott Spencer" <scottaspencer@att.net>
>
> Does anyone have any experience with the O-320H model and also on the cost
(I know it will vary depending on Jug etc) of doing a rebuild yourself. By
this I mean owner does disassembly, cleaning and reassembly but everything
gets shipped out for inspection and work at regular shops.
>
> Thanks
> RV9A
> Scott
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Alternative engines |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Curt Reimer" <cgreimer@mb.sympatico.ca>
> By the way...what was the cert number and engine type used on the first
engine
> powered experimental aircraft...? Sorry! Couldn't resist.
>
> Jim Duckett, RV-7A
Ah yes, the Wrights again. The risk factor that the Wrights accepted while
developing their Flyer far exceeded the risk of bolting an auto derivative
engine onto a proven airframe. By all rights they should have both been
killed. Orville nearly was. Wilbur perhaps died before he could be.
I'm not sure that many of us would want to accept that particular risk
profile while flying for sport and recreation. But for those who want to
take such risks to advance the state of the art, you have my total respect.
Curt
Message 9
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Kenneth Beene" <kbeene@citilink.com>
> > Does anyone have any experience with the O-320H model and
> also on the cost
> Scott,
I have my overhaul cost for the O-320 E3D on my web pages at
http://www.mninter.net/~kbeene/overhaul_cost.html
Ken
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Alternative engines |
--> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
> I'm not sure that many of us would want to accept that particular risk
> profile while flying for sport and recreation. But for those who want to
> take such risks to advance the state of the art, you have my total respect.
>
> Curt
Nice troll, Curt. Good luck.
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
-6 wings
Message 11
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--> RV-List message posted by: "rv6tc" <rv6tc@earthlink.net>
Charlie,
Seems like the RV list guys (myself included) don't always seem to get the
subtleties of humor mixed in with a posting. Remember Primer/tailwheel
wars, the whole "how do you mount a fuel pump" fiasco and then of course,
the "Daisy" chain.
I, for one enjoy it, though. It takes my mind of the humiliating lack of
progress of my project.
Keith Hughes
RV6 (stalled)
Denver
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charlie and Tupper England" <cengland@netdoor.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: alternative engines and Van's opinion (apology)
> --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie and Tupper England
<cengland@netdoor.com>
>
> I'm slowly learning that kidding around through email just doesn't work
that
> well. I would hate to cause any hard feelings or shift the focus of a
useful
> discussion to other areas.
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Weight of Hooker Harnesses for RV-8/A? |
--> RV-List message posted by: czechsix@juno.com
Does anybody know how much a set of Hooker harnesses for an RV-8/A
weighs? I'm just curious if anyone has weighed them or if there's a
published weight number for them.
If anyone has this info for a Rocket or RV-4 it's probably close enough
to me an idea....
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D fiberglass....
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Modeling Clay |
--> RV-List message posted by: czechsix@juno.com
Ernest,
Maybe this thread has already been beaten to death, but I just finished
my second upper instersection fairing yesterday. I couldn't find
oil-based modeling clay and bought some water-based clay at Michaels.
Works just fine....didn't add any oil, didn't cover it with anything. I
did put duct tape over my gear leg fairing and on the bottom of the
wing/fuse area where the fairing would be laid up (before putting the
clay on), both to keep the fiberglass from sticking to the metal and to
make cleanup of the clay easier. But I just laid the glass up right on
the clay and it came off easily. The little bit of clay left sticking to
the inside of the fairing can be scraped off and if you want it
*absolutely* clean, just rinse it out with water (the sooner the better
because it does eventually dry hard and then of course it would be much
more difficult). I reused the same clay for all the fairings I did too.
Now with respect to the overall task of being doubled over under the
fuse/wing forming the clay, lying in the dirt, applying several layers of
glass, etc.....I sympathize with ya....it really sucks. The sanding and
filling part after the fairing is done isn't much more fun. Which
reminds me, by the way....if you take a little extra time when doing the
layup to butt-joint the pieces of cloth and then stagger the joints with
the next layer for strength, you'll get a much smoother finished fairing
that will sand/fill quicker. I did one fairing by overlapping pieces of
cloth at each joint, and butt-jointed the pieces on the second fairing.
Worth the trouble IMHO to do the latter when it comes to sanding the
stuff.
I'll be glad with fiberglass work is done (is it ever?).
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D fiberglass....still....
-----------------------------------------------------
Time: 11:54:53 AM PST US
From: "Ernest Kells" <ernest.kells@sympatico.ca>
Subject: RV-List: Modeling Clay
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ernest Kells" <ernest.kells@sympatico.ca>
First question: I have decided to make my own intersection fairings.
Instead of the oil-based modeling clay mentioned by Vans and the archives
for the molds, has anyone tried the normal (water-based) modeling clay
that
is readily available - and cheap? First, I am considering mixing a
food-grade oil into the clay, replacing the water - stirring well in
small
batches for each fairing. Second, I am considering laying up the
water-based clay, then rubbing a coating of oil on the surface for no
sticking. Would one of these methods work?? Working with fiber-glass is
a
little bit of hell on Earth.
Second question: I would like to repair a few riveting dings. Would
resin
mixed with flox - or milled fiber work after really roughing up the skin?
I
understand that it would dry very hard. Although sanding may be really
tough, I only have very few of these so this wouldn't be a problem. It
would be great to hide these very few errors with something that won't
shrink, crack, fall off, etc. Thanks.
Ernest Kells - RV-9A O235-N2C, Wood Prop
Finish Kit 85% Complete
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: MT-Propeller |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Norman" <nhunger@sprint.ca>
Hi Jim,
I also got an email from Martin about flying the MT propeller in rain. He
said they are designed for it and they had one example that was 22 years old
and still flying. He listed several big dollar certified ships using their
props so I no longer think rain is a problem for an MT propeller.
For those new to avaition or who just don't understand what we are talking
about;
Rain droplets are a factor to a propeller blade in flight. Each blade has
portions well above 500 mph in cruise flight. A drop of water has a small
mass which must be deflected by the blade. Aluminum blades handle water OK
but not forever. High milage float planes usually suffer water damage to the
blades. Recreational flyers have no problems. Wood props don't take rain
well at all. I would love to hear some comments from RVers flying wood props
in rain regulairily. Wood props without the plastic or metal leading edge
strips cannot be flown in rain.
I'm only interested in a prop that can handle rain and I also require a
constant speed unit. I would love to save some weight with a composite prop
but it must be able to handle rain.
The MT 3 blade CS with the newer blade design weighs 44 lbs compared to the
2 blade Hartzell CS at 50 lbs. Almost not worth the huge extra money for the
MT unless some one can tell me it's 10 mph faster. I don't care too much
about climb, just cruise. The Wirlwind 150 is trying to be around 30 lbs.
Now they're talking, I'll buck up for one of those if enough flight reports
substantiate performance. Lucky for me I have approx one more year before I
buy my prop. If my job and career are still happening then I will buy the
best.
Norman Hunger
RV6A Delta BC
> Hi Norm,
>
> I just got back from Germany.
> The Pacific Northwest doesn't know squat about rain, compared to Germany.
:-)
> And it's a lot colder in Germany, also.
>
> Jim Ayers
> RV-3 N47RV LOM M332A engine Warnke FP wood prop
> Electric CS MT Propeller ready to be balanced
>
>
> > How long do you expect the blades to last? I fly in the Pacific
Northwest
> > where we get alot of rain. The primary duty of my ship is cross-country
so
> > I
> > expect to fly in rain more than the fair weather local jaunt crowd.
> >
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Alternative engines |
--> RV-List message posted by: JRWillJR@aol.com
In a message dated 12/8/2002 1:20:06 AM Central Standard Time,
perfeng@3rivers.net writes:
> By the way...what was the cert number and engine type used on the first
> engine
> powered experimental aircraft...? Sorry! Couldn't resist.
>
Yeah, Jim, I know where you are coming from. I think those Belted Power guys
have a nice unit and are building some credible hours. I would like to see
more but I think they are making some good progress. I don't see anything
wrong with those Egenolfer (his name is to hard to spell) Subies either and
we may see one of those supercharged Subies making both of us suck exhaust
fumes. You seem to want 200 horses so the angle valve Lycoming is expensive.
I think you could "settle" for a 190ish horse (conservative) Superior unit. I
seen some race car engines that cost nearly as much and they are good for
only a few races--I don't know much about car engines for sure. I am thinking
the firewall forward cost on the Subie and Chevy is going to be 2/3's the
cost or more of the Superior unit and with unproven TBO and reliability.
Extrapolating a TBO will not do.
Well, you and me are building the same airplane, sissy trike gear and all.
What if I make the front gear retractable and let it sit on it's nose like a
Varieze (just kidding--sorta)?
JR, RV7A tilting slider, Aerosport IO-360, large piles of sheetmetal all over
the place
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Rockets vs Van's |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Norman" <nhunger@sprint.ca>
> I'm looking really hard at the RVs. I've been studying the line for about
a
> year. Of course I've seen the Harmon Rockets and the F1 Rockets as well. I
> understand that the Rockets are based on Van's RV4, but modified to accept
> the (I)O 540. My question to all of you is, why has Van's not offered an
> Ultimate 8, so to speak?
>
> I once e-mailed Van's and asked if they ever would consider the concept. I
> received an single syllable answer "NO"
Van's RV aircraft are already hotrods. Have you flown one?
He considers the 540 too big for the airframes.
Norman Hunger
RV6A Delta BC
Do not archive
Message 17
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Norman" <nhunger@sprint.ca>
You must be a resident here for over 180 days. That means you have to pay
the taxes of whatever land you choose to live on.
I work with many Americans that are here for short stays. They collect every
reciept for everything they buy. When they leave they add up all the GST
(7%) and fill out a form. It all gets reimbursed to them. The PST
(provincial sales tax 7.7%) is non-recoverable.
Sorry, and welcome to Canada, 14.5% sales tax in BC. (each province sets
their own sales tax percentage, GST is accross Canada) I hope you are being
paid in USD, the difference should very easily make up the taxes.
Norman Hunger
RV6A Delta BC
Do not archive
> This is Tom Brandon back with you, the American building an RV7A on
> Vancouver Island. I just found out some bad news today. It seems I'm going
> to have to pay the Canadian Government $6,000 or $7,000 in taxes for the
> privilege of building up here. I'm going to have to pay PST & GST on the
kit
> I import. Are any of of your members tax lawyers? Can you give us any
> advice? Darren & I are trying to find out if it's a mistake, but so far,
no
> luck.
> Thanks
> Tom Brandon
Message 18
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--> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
> Seems like the RV list guys (myself included) don't always seem to get the
> subtleties of humor mixed in with a posting.
"A jest's prosperity lies in the ear of him that hears it, never in the tongue
of him that makes it"
--William Shakespeare ("Love's Labours Lost")
I've found that humour rarely works in email, unless you're a very good writer,
except with someone you've already met face-to-face. I'm not a good enough
writer, so I avoid it.
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
-6 wings
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Modeling Clay |
--> RV-List message posted by: HCRV6@aol.com
In a message dated 12/7/02 12:48:44 PM Pacific Standard Time,
Knicholas2@aol.com writes:
<< --> RV-List message posted by: Knicholas2@aol.com
<>
FWIW I tried both Play Dough and commercial water based modeling clay when I
laid up my wheel pant to gear leg fairings. Both were a disaster for me
because of crumbling and no mechanical strength. I finally used oil based
modeling clay with some painted on liquid release agent and it worked just
fine.
Harry Crosby
Pleasanton, California
RV-6, electrical (still)
Message 20
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| Subject: | Nose Gear Leg/Eng Mount |
--> RV-List message posted by: KAKlewin@aol.com
Well, now Ive done it!!!! Im working on the nose gear leg to my 6A and
thought I had all the surfaces sanded nicely and all oiled up....it slid in
great..perfect. Then I go to take the #$%
& thing out and it wont
budge....so after packing leg with ice, a bottle of oil, WD-40, a heat gun,
and 2 days work the thing is finally out!!!
Now the rub. The nose gear leg, on the lower portion where it makes contact
with the engine mount (there are two "wide" parts..upper and about 7 in below
where it exits the nose gear mount) I have a nice big gouge on the gear leg
about 1/16th in deep...obvious replacement. My question is on the eng
mount...I have a nice gouge on that too on the inside...not sure if a burr
got in there or what, but looks like the way it is put together causes
continuos rubbing at that position (as I replicated trying to get the gear
leg mount out) and is going to dig into the nose gear leg and eventually
cause failure.
So should I go with a new eng mount from vans, get it fixed somehow, or get
a new one from vans and modify it somehow to prevent this in the future??
Since I most likely will go with some new parts...anyone need a 6A nose gear
leg or engine mount (dynafocal)???
Working on the plane is fun...but sometimes I use a lot of $#%
&@# type
words...today was one of those days!!!
Kurt in OKC
Ruining Parts as fast as I can buy them!!!
Message 21
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Eric Borduas" <eborduas@lycos.com>
>>I've found that humour rarely works in email, unless you're a very good
writer,
>>except with someone you've already met face-to-face. I'm not a good
enough
>>writer, so I avoid it.
The difficulty with expressing emotions is exactly the reason why emoticons
(smilies) came about. E.g: :), :( ;}, and many others.
ERic
-7 | -9?
Message 22
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--> RV-List message posted by: Tom Brandon <tbrandon@shaw.ca>
Hi Norman
There's always a catch. You must return the goods to the states within
60 days. And I'm not sure airplane kits qualify anyway. That's 14.5% taxes,
witch also applies to labor. Another 3% in bank fees to get money across the
border, and pretty soon it really adds up. I think if I did everything
legally, I'd probably have to pay Canada around $10,000 or $15,000. Not sure
really.
Still trying to figure it out
Tom
tbrandon@shaw.ca
On 12/8/02 11:04 AM, "Norman" <nhunger@sprint.ca> wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Norman" <nhunger@sprint.ca>
>
> You must be a resident here for over 180 days. That means you have to pay
> the taxes of whatever land you choose to live on.
>
> I work with many Americans that are here for short stays. They collect every
> reciept for everything they buy. When they leave they add up all the GST
> (7%) and fill out a form. It all gets reimbursed to them. The PST
> (provincial sales tax 7.7%) is non-recoverable.
>
> Sorry, and welcome to Canada, 14.5% sales tax in BC. (each province sets
> their own sales tax percentage, GST is accross Canada) I hope you are being
> paid in USD, the difference should very easily make up the taxes.
>
> Norman Hunger
> RV6A Delta BC
> Do not archive
>
>> This is Tom Brandon back with you, the American building an RV7A on
>> Vancouver Island. I just found out some bad news today. It seems I'm going
>> to have to pay the Canadian Government $6,000 or $7,000 in taxes for the
>> privilege of building up here. I'm going to have to pay PST & GST on the
> kit
>> I import. Are any of of your members tax lawyers? Can you give us any
>> advice? Darren & I are trying to find out if it's a mistake, but so far,
> no
>> luck.
>> Thanks
>> Tom Brandon
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re:Alternate Engines |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Joe & Jan Connell" <jconnell@rconnect.com>
Guys:
I sent the following note to Jan Eggenfelner
and below is his response:
Joe
-----------
"Hi Jan,
I listened with interest on your recent interview.
I am currently building an RV-9A and will need
to select an engine in the next 6-9 months.
There are some un-answered questions or concerns
I have about the Subaru/RV configuration:
I am 63 and I could see a situation in the next
10 years where, because of medical conditions,
I would have to sell the RV-9A. I don't think there
are a lot of people willing to buy a second-hand homebuilt
with an auto engine. In other words, that auto engine
would be a liability rather than an asset to the sale.
When maintenance (replacement of the belts driving
the cam, for instance) is required, I don't think any
automobile mechanic or shop would touch it because
of potential liability problems.
If maintenance is required the access to an auto
mechanic coming to an airport to perform service on my
plane is very doubtful.
I can't see shipping the engine back to your plant for
service. I am not comfortable you will be in service in
the next 8-15 years.
The ignition system is a single point of failure and I have
already had an auto disabled on the interstate with a bad
crank position sensor.
Can you respond to these questions to allay my fears?
Thanks from Joe Connell
Stewartville, MN"
----------------
The response I received was:
"This engine is not for you
Jan"
Based on my criteria, Jan's response is quite valid.
I applaud him for that. The key message is one of
how much risk does one want to take. Each builder
has his or her own threshold of comfort and it is
important we not force-fit a solution that makes us lose
sleep... (I've been flying for 5 years behind a 2-cyle Rotax
and want something much more reliable!)
Joe Connell - RV-9A (fuselage) - N95JJ
jconnell@rconnect.com
Message 24
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| Subject: | baggage floor and platenuts |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Orear" <jorear@new.rr.com>
list:
This is a picky kind of question, but here goes. Those of you that have installed
your baggage compartment floor panels with screws/platenuts, what spacing
between screws did you use? My thought is to have one at the front and back edges
of each panel at each rib and then evenly space two between them. Sound
good?
Thanks in advance folks
Regards,
Jeff Orear
RV6A
fuselage
Peshtigo, WI
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: baggage floor and platenuts |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen@earthlink.net>
I used the spacing that was prepunched for the pop-rivets originally called
for...probably was mega-overkill too!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Orear" <jorear@new.rr.com>
Subject: RV-List: baggage floor and platenuts
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Orear" <jorear@new.rr.com>
>
> list:
>
> This is a picky kind of question, but here goes. Those of you that have
installed your baggage compartment floor panels with screws/platenuts, what
spacing between screws did you use? My thought is to have one at the front
and back edges of each panel at each rib and then evenly space two between
them. Sound good?
>
> Thanks in advance folks
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Jeff Orear
> RV6A
> fuselage
> Peshtigo, WI
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: MT-Propeller |
--> RV-List message posted by: LeastDrag93066@aol.com
Hi Norm,
While MT Propeller's seem expensive, their "Prop" price normally includes
those incidental items required to actually use the prop. Like completely
fitted spinner (including front and rear bulkheads), governor, etc.
Hartzell "Prop" prices are usually just a prop.
I just received my $10,000 MT Propeller. It includes a $500 adapter (and
bushings) for the LOM M332A engine, a $1370 electric governor, and a $890
spinner with the electric sliprings (completely fitted to the prop).
Of course, this three bladed cruise prop is only around $7,000, when stated
like a Hartzell priced prop.
I've flown through my share of rain with a wood prop. At 2000 RPM, they
still don't hold up too well.
Jim Ayers
RV-3 N47RV sn 50
Message 27
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| Subject: | Engines...somewhat long! |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Duckett <perfeng@3rivers.net>
Okay Guys,
I think we all agree that what we're looking for to turn the prop is a
reliable, reasonably priced, engine with good to excellent operational
longevity. Weight, fuel burn, maintenance, and power production are
also high on our lists too.
As I agreed, there are new suppliers of "cert" type engines coming on
line that are really giving the "Big Boys" a wake-up call. I'm sure
everyone has seen the push Lycoming has been making here of late, so it
seems they are watching what we're doing.
My bottom line is I want 200 HP. I want the latest in engine and
power producing technology in either "type" of powerplant. The "Auto"
has the advantages in that I have far more options in engineering and
building to reach my objectives than I currently do with the "Cert"
engine and for far less money.
I'll agree that the points that support the "cert" engine does in a lot
of ways out weighs the "auto" when you look at proven flight hours,
number of units in service, and we don't fly into parts stores but into
airports. Guys like Tracy C., Jess M., Jim E., and many others have an
uphill battle because they can't show a kajillion flight hours and
thousands and thousands of units in service. That doesn't mean that
their, mine, our someone elses engineering and designs are flawed or
won't do just as well or better that a "cert".
Nothing is more un-nerving than to have the fan quit turning and and
hearing that deafening silence when all you see out the windscreen is
trees and mountain tops. Just because I have a Lycoming hanging up
front doesn't mean it won't happen. Just because I have an "auto"
engine up there doesn't mean it will!
To address a few other questions and comments that have arose concerning
this thread...
(paraphrased)
Automotive engines must turn so much faster than Lyc's, what is the
longevity? Or something like that.
Figuring Normal Rated Power Output:
an IO-360 turning @ 2024 rpm gives us 135 True HP at 75% and a piston
speed of 1518 fpm.
a 4.3L (262ci) turning @3375 rpm gives us 168 True HP at 75% and a
piston speed of 1958 fpm.
If you look at Absolute Maximum Power Output (Redline for application)
IO-360 turning at 2650 rpm develops 180 THP and a piston speed of 2024 fpm
4.3L turning at 4500 rpm develops 223 THP and a piston speed of 2610 fpm
So yes, the Lycoming does turn approx. 28% slower but, the Chevy builds
more power with less displacement. You could turn the Chevy to match the
Piston Speed of the Lycoming but, flow profiles and fuel burn would be
horrible without turboing it.
Even if you tear down the Chevy four times to the Lyc's one, all the
costs for overhauls on the Chevy is still around half that of one Lyc O/H.
To address Rob's question about our "Backyard Approach" conversion,
we've been engneering and building racing and special application
engines for 30+ years. I still don't claim to be an "expert" that some
on the list seem to be searching for. I just a guy who loves engines
and loves to fly. I don't cut corners or build engines on a dirt floor.
I don't buy my tools from Home Depot or Harbor Freight and I can't
carry them around in the back of my pick-up. So myself and our shop is
far from being "Back Yard".
To adress the "Alternative Engine Cost" of $8000 ready to run, I'll give
Re-Sale prices here.
4.3L (262ci) 230HP Chevrolet 4300 V-6 Marine Vortec $1600
Carb, Manifold, and Leaning block
$ 550
Redundant MSD Ignition system
$ 700
Dampener, Pulleys, Flexplate, Brackets, etc.
$ 500
Average cost of PSRU
$4000
12 hours to inspect and assemble @$65/Hr. $ 780
Total
$7980
If you figure our actual cost (being a stocking shop) and our actual
cost of labor, yes, we can build a dang good powerplant assembly for 8
grand!
Granted, we are doing a lot more to our engine than just this but, my
point is...you can build a reliable 200 HP powerplant out of the crate
for around half of a 200HP Lycomings price.
Even if you build a full aluminum auto engine with every "trick part
under the sun"and charge out every bit of labor and machining you still
come in around $14,000 with PSRU, and you can make 230-250 HP with
excellent reliability and longevity and be around 100# lighter than the Lyc.
Who knows, I may win a new 200HP angle valve in a raffle and this will
go down as a good discussion topic.
Jim Duckett, sissy nose wheeling, chevy thinking RV-7A
Please do not archive this rant!
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: baggage floor and platenuts |
--> RV-List message posted by: HCRV6@aol.com
In a message dated 12/8/02 2:01:14 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jorear@new.rr.com writes:
<< This is a picky kind of question, but here goes. Those of you that have
installed your baggage compartment floor panels with screws/platenuts, what
spacing between screws did you use? My thought is to have one at the front
and back edges of each panel at each rib and then evenly space two between
them. Sound good? >>
Might be OK, but I just used the same spacing as shown on the plans for
rivets for my platenuts. Undoubtedly an overkill but only took a few hours
to put all the platenuts in so what the hey, it made for an easy decision.
Harry Crosby
Pleasanton, California
RV-6, electrical (still)
Message 29
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| Subject: | Engines...somewhat long! |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Hassel" <bob@hassel-usa.com>
Good response Jim! Any ideas for a 160hp RV9 application? 8-)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jim Duckett
Subject: RV-List: Engines...somewhat long!
--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Duckett <perfeng@3rivers.net>
Okay Guys,
I think we all agree that what we're looking for to turn the prop is a
reliable, reasonably priced, engine with good to excellent operational
longevity. Weight, fuel burn, maintenance, and power production are
also high on our lists too.
As I agreed, there are new suppliers of "cert" type engines coming on
line that are really giving the "Big Boys" a wake-up call. I'm sure
everyone has seen the push Lycoming has been making here of late, so it
seems they are watching what we're doing.
My bottom line is I want 200 HP. I want the latest in engine and
power producing technology in either "type" of powerplant. The "Auto"
has the advantages in that I have far more options in engineering and
building to reach my objectives than I currently do with the "Cert"
engine and for far less money.
I'll agree that the points that support the "cert" engine does in a lot
of ways out weighs the "auto" when you look at proven flight hours,
number of units in service, and we don't fly into parts stores but into
airports. Guys like Tracy C., Jess M., Jim E., and many others have an
uphill battle because they can't show a kajillion flight hours and
thousands and thousands of units in service. That doesn't mean that
their, mine, our someone elses engineering and designs are flawed or
won't do just as well or better that a "cert".
Nothing is more un-nerving than to have the fan quit turning and and
hearing that deafening silence when all you see out the windscreen is
trees and mountain tops. Just because I have a Lycoming hanging up
front doesn't mean it won't happen. Just because I have an "auto"
engine up there doesn't mean it will!
To address a few other questions and comments that have arose concerning
this thread...
(paraphrased)
Automotive engines must turn so much faster than Lyc's, what is the
longevity? Or something like that.
Figuring Normal Rated Power Output:
an IO-360 turning @ 2024 rpm gives us 135 True HP at 75% and a piston
speed of 1518 fpm.
a 4.3L (262ci) turning @3375 rpm gives us 168 True HP at 75% and a
piston speed of 1958 fpm.
If you look at Absolute Maximum Power Output (Redline for application)
IO-360 turning at 2650 rpm develops 180 THP and a piston speed of 2024 fpm
4.3L turning at 4500 rpm develops 223 THP and a piston speed of 2610 fpm
So yes, the Lycoming does turn approx. 28% slower but, the Chevy builds
more power with less displacement. You could turn the Chevy to match the
Piston Speed of the Lycoming but, flow profiles and fuel burn would be
horrible without turboing it.
Even if you tear down the Chevy four times to the Lyc's one, all the
costs for overhauls on the Chevy is still around half that of one Lyc O/H.
To address Rob's question about our "Backyard Approach" conversion,
we've been engneering and building racing and special application
engines for 30+ years. I still don't claim to be an "expert" that some
on the list seem to be searching for. I just a guy who loves engines
and loves to fly. I don't cut corners or build engines on a dirt floor.
I don't buy my tools from Home Depot or Harbor Freight and I can't
carry them around in the back of my pick-up. So myself and our shop is
far from being "Back Yard".
To adress the "Alternative Engine Cost" of $8000 ready to run, I'll give
Re-Sale prices here.
4.3L (262ci) 230HP Chevrolet 4300 V-6 Marine Vortec $1600
Carb, Manifold, and Leaning block
$ 550
Redundant MSD Ignition system
$ 700
Dampener, Pulleys, Flexplate, Brackets, etc.
$ 500
Average cost of PSRU
$4000
12 hours to inspect and assemble @$65/Hr. $ 780
Total
$7980
If you figure our actual cost (being a stocking shop) and our actual
cost of labor, yes, we can build a dang good powerplant assembly for 8
grand!
Granted, we are doing a lot more to our engine than just this but, my
point is...you can build a reliable 200 HP powerplant out of the crate
for around half of a 200HP Lycomings price.
Even if you build a full aluminum auto engine with every "trick part
under the sun"and charge out every bit of labor and machining you still
come in around $14,000 with PSRU, and you can make 230-250 HP with
excellent reliability and longevity and be around 100# lighter than the Lyc.
Who knows, I may win a new 200HP angle valve in a raffle and this will
go down as a good discussion topic.
Jim Duckett, sissy nose wheeling, chevy thinking RV-7A
Please do not archive this rant!
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Alternative Powerplants et.al. (rotary cost vs lycoming) |
--> RV-List message posted by: "WALTER KERR" <kerrjb@msn.com>
> I'd like to see some breakdown of the $8000 for an automotive "mount to
> hub" installation, as that sounds exceedingly cheap.
I am just going thru the purchasing, installation phase of a rotary engine.
This will be a course cut at the numbers.
13B 180 HP rotary from Bruce Turrentine $3500
including oil cooler, starter, etc.
(this could be reduced to $1500 if you feel capable of
overhauling a core; $500 for core and $1000 for parts)
Tracy Crook Reduction $2850
ECU/FFI $875
Coils if you do not use the stock ones $130
Griffin Custom Aluminum Radiator (about the same cost as O-360 oil cooler)
Cowling ( I used Sam James about $200 cheaper than Vans
without the aluminum rings which I did not buy)
Engine mount is considerably more expensive than Vans
Alternator is same
Do not have a price for the air induction system from
Bruce Turrentine nor the exhaust system from Barry Crook.
From these numbers you can see that $8k is a very achievable number.
When my engine is complete I will tally the numbers accurate for the list.
For pictures on my installation, go to www.rotaryaviation.com and look under
latest news.
Bernie
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Engines...somewhat long! |
--> RV-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming@sigecom.net>
Have you considered the XP-360? It is rated at 180 HP but must produce just
a tad more with its improvements considering it is an improved Lyc 360. It
is a bargain if you want to be flying and not in the shop for adjustments,
as is the case with many auto conversions IMHO. It will run on auto gas too
!!!
But maybe you WANT to be experimenting more than flying? There is something
to be said for that.
Give it more thought and research I say. What do you really want -- Fly or
Experiment?
One more thought, think about future resale value if you should lose your
medical and have to sell. You'd really do better with an aircraft engine
don't you think? Just MHO again.
Indiana Larry
do not archive
Message 32
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Gary" <rv9er@3rivers.net>
No, they do like the rest of us sensible guys....they leave the insides bare aluminum.
Gary
Time: 01:02:33 PM PST US
From: "Dr. Leathers" <DrLeathers@822heal.com>
Subject: RV-List: Priming
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dr. Leathers" <DrLeathers@822heal.com>
I noticed that the Van's prototype for the RV-10 has had no priming or other corrosion
treatment for the internal structures such as bulkheads etc. Do they dip
the entire thing after the fact, or what? What about the mated surfaces?
DOC
---
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Engines...somewhat long! |
--> RV-List message posted by: JRWillJR@aol.com
In a message dated 12/8/2002 6:00:24 PM Central Standard Time,
perfeng@3rivers.net writes:
> Even if you build a full aluminum auto engine with every "trick part
> under the sun"and charge out every bit of labor and machining you still
> come in around $14,000 with PSRU, and you can make 230-250 HP with
> excellent reliability and longevity and be around 100# lighter than the
> Lyc.
>
Many have tried, to my knowledge none have succeded in accomplishing the
numbers you quote. How do you know you can do this, not an arguement but just
curious? Does anyone actually have a Chevy V6 with 250 horses that has an
installed weight 100 lbs less than a Lycoming 360 that is actually flying
without continuous mods and which can fly upside down? Do Not Archive
JR, tilting slider, RV7A Aerosport IO-360.
Message 34
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|
| Subject: | engine baffling RV6 S-cowl |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dave Ford" <dford@michweb.net>
I'm working on engine baffling and wondering specifically how at the front of the
engine between the starter ring gear and the upper/lower cowl joint the distance
that the part 1 fits forward of the aft end of the cowl joint? Should it
be cut off even with the cowl joint so that the fabric will seal that gap?
What about the cowl joint screws rubbing/chaffing against the aluminum or fabric
(depending which method used)? The part supplied in the generic baffle kit
extends forward of the aft end of the cowl air inlet. Should the airseal fabric
seal the whole area around this area with no leaks? It seems this is a hard
area to seal with the fiberglass air inlets being bonded to the cowl meeting
at this area also. Surely someone has been there. Thanks.
Dave Ford
RV6
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Engines...somewhat long! |
--> RV-List message posted by: LeastDrag93066@aol.com
Hi Bob,
There is one alternate engine, which is actually an aircraft engine with a
2000 hour TBO. It would work really well in a RV-9A. The LOM M332CE(12V).
It is an air-cooled four cylinder four cycle engine with "hemi" heads,
overhead cam, fuel injected and supercharged. It produces 170 horsepower.
When the supercharger is disengaged, this 245 cubic inch engine has a
specific fuel consumption of 0.43 pounds per horsepower.
It has a 250 pound weight. However, this is a "flying" weight.
You would need to add 60 pounds to the Lycoming "running" weight to get an
equivalent "flying" weight.
BTW, the engine is delivered with the complete baffling installed. :-)
Jim Ayers
Less Drag Products, Inc.
RV-3 N47RV sn 50 LOM M332A engine (140 horsepower with supercharger engaged.)
Message 36
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| Subject: | Rapco Vac Pump Mount questions |
--> RV-List message posted by: WCruiser1@aol.com
I am working on installing my rapco vac pump on the aux mount of my O-360 and
have not figured out how to tighten the lower corner nut closest to the
centerline of the engine. With the pump diameter larger than the mount
pattern, you have to tighten the nuts from the side (no socket access)
however the oil filter, temerature control, and tach drive are imediated
adjacent to the lower corner attachement.
Any advise would be greately appreciated.
Gary Gembala
RV8A
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Rapco Vac Pump Mount questions |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Paul Besing" <azpilot@extremezone.com>
Aircraft Spruce sells a special wrench for this.
Paul Besing
RV-6A Sold (Waiting on the RV-10)
http://www.lacodeworks.com/besing
Kitlog Pro Builder's Log Software
http://www.kitlog.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <WCruiser1@aol.com>
Subject: RV-List: Rapco Vac Pump Mount questions
> --> RV-List message posted by: WCruiser1@aol.com
>
> I am working on installing my rapco vac pump on the aux mount of my O-360
and
> have not figured out how to tighten the lower corner nut closest to the
> centerline of the engine. With the pump diameter larger than the mount
> pattern, you have to tighten the nuts from the side (no socket access)
> however the oil filter, temerature control, and tach drive are imediated
> adjacent to the lower corner attachement.
>
> Any advise would be greately appreciated.
>
> Gary Gembala
>
> RV8A
>
>
Message 38
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--> RV-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com
The true craftsman primes all parts with an epoxy type primer to prevent
corrosion in places you cannot see.
I primed all my parts prior to assembly with NAPA Vinyl Wash Primer ( A two
part , self etching primer ). I will never worry about not being able to see
inside .
That first step from 13.5 is a LOOOONG one !
do not archive
Bob Olds A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor
RV-4 , N1191X
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Rockets vs Van's |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Japundza" <Bob.Japundza@realmed.com>
Terry,
The F1 tail kit has its advantages and disadvantages over the RV-8 emp. kit. It
is not matched-hole like the RV-8 is, but the skins are punched. So you do
have to jig everything and build carefully. It does shine in many other respects,
however. All of the internal parts are anodized, and the heavier internal
parts are prepunched and finished. The ribs require no flutes, the are perfectly
straight out of the box; and are formed really well so no fluting or straightening
are required. The trailing edges are riveted (not bent) unlike the
RV kits, which almost totally eliminates the possibility of oil-canning. As
a result they are much stronger. At first I didn't like the looks of the trailing
edges but I've grown to like them--it looks more like a Mooney trailing edge
than it does an RV. Mark has done a great job with the manuals, there are
plenty of diagrams and photos to show the builder how things go together. Having
built an RV the old fashioned way, its been an easy kit to build for me.
I've had many RV builders over in my hangar and they seem to ooh and aah over
a lot of the little details that I do; pressed joggles in angles, critical placement
items already finished, nice riteting, etc. It is a great kit and I have
been very pleased with it and the support from Mark. He supports builders
110% and is an all-around great guy.
Yesterday I got jumped by a friend in his P-51 (fight's on! woohoo!) and boy I
could have used those two extra cylinders...at least I could out-turn him. I
chased him up a few verticals and did manage to wax him twice, but he got me more
times than that. Flew some formation afterward and I knew when he came up
on my right without having to look--that big Merlin sings a tune like no other.
Flights like that alone are worth pounding a few thousand rivets...
Bob Japundza
RV-6 N244BJ O-360C/S flying
F1 QB under const.
>The F1 Rocket looks like a great airplane. How does the F1 kit compare to Van's
>pre-punched kits (especially the empennage)?
Message 40
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| Subject: | engines (to really have the dream) |
--> RV-List message posted by: perfeng@3rivers.net
Larry,
The Ideal thing to me would be to build two ships as close as humanly
possible to equal in every detail. With the only difference being one
having a Lycoming type engine and the other having a comparable (horsepower)
conversion unit. Wire them both for sound (sensor on everything) and go
flying. Collect data and document everything from cranking and run up to the
number of bugs you murdered while cruising and start crunching the numbers.
We all have a tendency to to take the statements we read or hear and apply
them to our own location and flying habits. I say one thing thinking utility
and the other person that reads it might be thinking aerobatic.
Most, not all sad to say, of the folks that are into developing other power
sources are recording data but, generally with nothing to compare it to. The
power settings and flight charateristics of a Subbie in an RV-4 does not truly
equate to those of a 540 in a Rocket. Some data can be extrapolated and
adjusted for a reasonable comparison but, it very little data and very
generalized.
Truth be known, I will probably end up with an XP or similar hanging on the
front of my -7a sooner or later. mainly so I can do some "head to head"
comparing for myself. If for no other reason it might be a spare or hung for
selling the bird when Van introduces the RV-17 Trans-atmospheric 4-place.
Jim Duckett, N708JD
Builders are just dreamers with something to do with their hands...
Do Not Archive
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: Engines...somewhat long! |
--> RV-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaskuss@bellsouth.net>
snipped
>Figuring Normal Rated Power Output:
>an IO-360 turning @ 2024 rpm gives us 135 True HP at 75% and a piston
>speed of 1518 fpm.
>a 4.3L (262ci) turning @3375 rpm gives us 168 True HP at 75% and a
>piston speed of 1958 fpm.
>
>If you look at Absolute Maximum Power Output (Redline for application)
>IO-360 turning at 2650 rpm develops 180 THP and a piston speed of 2024 fpm
>4.3L turning at 4500 rpm develops 223 THP and a piston speed of 2610 fpm
snipped
Jim,
I was searching the internet looking for stock weight of the 4.3 engine. I came
across the following page, which states the horsepower of the 4.3 engine in
the S-10 as either 180 or 190 hp at 4400 rpm
http://www.new-cars.com/2002/chevrolet/chevrolet-s10-specifications.html
What model of this engine produces the 223 hp you quote? Is this web site in error?
Charlie Kuss
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: Nose Gear Leg/Eng Mount |
--> RV-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaskuss@bellsouth.net>
Curt
This won't be much consolation to you now. I suggest you purchase a reamer to
clean up the gear leg socket in your replacement mount. Or perhaps you can weld
the gouge you have and ream to size. My 8A main gear legs did not fit my Wd-821
weldments. I decided that rather than trying to hand fit these important parts,
I'd ream them.
I checked with my shop landlord, Ed Heishman. Ed owns a machine shop and helps
me out when needed. Unfortunately, he didn't have a 1 7/16" reamer. I checked
with my other machinist friends. No joy. I purchased an import adjustable reamer
from MSC for $42. It did a great job. I have a .001" clearance fit of both
gear legs. Yesterday, local 9A builders Fabian Lefler and Jim Streit brought
their gear legs and sockets over. We did 6 legs & sockets (also did another 9A
builder's stuff as well). All have a real "honeymoon" fit now. The adjustable
reamer allowed me to compensate for the slight variation in the machining of
the legs.
MSC part number is 02239119. It is a K (size range) reamer. It adjusts from 1
11/32" to 1 1/2" Price is $41.17 Web link is:
http://www.mscdirect.com/PDF.process?pdf=196&Keyword=Y
I hope this helps
Charlie Kuss
RV-8A
>--> RV-List message posted by: KAKlewin@aol.com
>
>Well, now Ive done it!!!! Im working on the nose gear leg to my 6A and
>thought I had all the surfaces sanded nicely and all oiled up....it slid in
>great..perfect. Then I go to take the #$%
>& thing out and it wont
>budge....so after packing leg with ice, a bottle of oil, WD-40, a heat gun,
>and 2 days work the thing is finally out!!!
>
>Now the rub. The nose gear leg, on the lower portion where it makes contact
>with the engine mount (there are two "wide" parts..upper and about 7 in below
>where it exits the nose gear mount) I have a nice big gouge on the gear leg
>about 1/16th in deep...obvious replacement. My question is on the eng
>mount...I have a nice gouge on that too on the inside...not sure if a burr
>got in there or what, but looks like the way it is put together causes
>continuos rubbing at that position (as I replicated trying to get the gear
>leg mount out) and is going to dig into the nose gear leg and eventually
>cause failure.
>
>So should I go with a new eng mount from vans, get it fixed somehow, or get
>a new one from vans and modify it somehow to prevent this in the future??
>
>Since I most likely will go with some new parts...anyone need a 6A nose gear
>leg or engine mount (dynafocal)???
>
>Working on the plane is fun...but sometimes I use a lot of $#%
>&@# type
>words...today was one of those days!!!
>
>Kurt in OKC
>Ruining Parts as fast as I can buy them!!!
>
>
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: Engines...somewhat long! |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Tracy Crook" <lors01@msn.com>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charlie Kuss" <chaskuss@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Engines...somewhat long!
> --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaskuss@bellsouth.net>
>
> snipped
> >Figuring Normal Rated Power Output:
> >an IO-360 turning @ 2024 rpm gives us 135 True HP at 75% and a piston
> >speed of 1518 fpm.
> >a 4.3L (262ci) turning @3375 rpm gives us 168 True HP at 75% and a
> >piston speed of 1958 fpm.
> >
> >If you look at Absolute Maximum Power Output (Redline for application)
> >IO-360 turning at 2650 rpm develops 180 THP and a piston speed of 2024
fpm
> >4.3L turning at 4500 rpm develops 223 THP and a piston speed of 2610 fpm
> snipped
>
> Jim,
> I was searching the internet looking for stock weight of the 4.3 engine.
I came across the following page, which states the horsepower of the 4.3
engine in the S-10 as either 180 or 190 hp at 4400 rpm
>
> http://www.new-cars.com/2002/chevrolet/chevrolet-s10-specifications.html
>
> What model of this engine produces the 223 hp you quote? Is this web site
in error?
> Charlie Kuss
I agree that there are a lot of exagerated HP claims around but there are
some valid reasons why some auto engines can make somewhat more than the
rating given by the carmaker.
Some of the main factors are:
Eliminating the restrictive car exhaust system.
Eliminating unneeded accessories like power steering pumps, air injection
pumps, radiator fans
Eliminating power robbing stuff like EGR
Improved intake manifold tuning
Running best power fuel mixture instead of best emissions (stochiometric)
These factors account for the increase from 160 HP that Mazda rated the 1989
13B to the 180 HP that I estimate I'm getting. The 4.3L Chevy will
definitely make more power but at the cost of 100+ more pounds.
A useful 'sanity check' is to calculate the theoretical CFM of air pumped by
any given engine at the target RPM and compare that to a reference engine
like the O - 360. If the auto engine pumps less air than the Lyc, it's not
going to make as much power.
Tracy Crook
Mazda 13B powered RV-4 1300 Hrs.
Mazda 20B powered RV-8 Gestation Mode
Message 44
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|
| Subject: | Re: Rockets vs Van's |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
Sounds like fun, Bob.
How will insurance costs differ...RV versus F1?
-
Larry Bowen
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Japundza
> Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 11:29 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV-List: Re: Rockets vs Van's
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Japundza"
> <Bob.Japundza@realmed.com>
>
> Terry,
>
> The F1 tail kit has its advantages and disadvantages over the
> RV-8 emp. kit. It is not matched-hole like the RV-8 is, but
> the skins are punched. So you do have to jig everything and
> build carefully. It does shine in many other respects,
> however. All of the internal parts are anodized, and the
> heavier internal parts are prepunched and finished. The ribs
> require no flutes, the are perfectly straight out of the box;
> and are formed really well so no fluting or straightening are
> required. The trailing edges are riveted (not bent) unlike
> the RV kits, which almost totally eliminates the possibility
> of oil-canning. As a result they are much stronger. At
> first I didn't like the looks of the trailing edges but I've
> grown to like them--it looks more like a Mooney trailing edge
> than it does an RV. Mark has done a great job with the
> manuals, there are plenty of diagrams and photos to show the
> builder how things go together. Having built an RV the old
> fashioned way, its been an ! easy kit to build for me. I've
> had many RV builders over in my hangar and they seem to ooh
> and aah over a lot of the little details that I do; pressed
> joggles in angles, critical placement items already finished,
> nice riteting, etc. It is a great kit and I have been very
> pleased with it and the support from Mark. He supports
> builders 110% and is an all-around great guy.
>
> Yesterday I got jumped by a friend in his P-51 (fight's on!
> woohoo!) and boy I could have used those two extra
> cylinders...at least I could out-turn him. I chased him up a
> few verticals and did manage to wax him twice, but he got me
> more times than that. Flew some formation afterward and I
> knew when he came up on my right without having to look--that
> big Merlin sings a tune like no other. Flights like that
> alone are worth pounding a few thousand rivets...
>
> Bob Japundza
> RV-6 N244BJ O-360C/S flying
> F1 QB under const.
>
>
> >The F1 Rocket looks like a great airplane. How does the F1
> kit compare
> >to Van's pre-punched kits (especially the empennage)?
>
>
> ===========
> ==========
> Matronics Forums.
> ==========
> List members.
> ==========
> ==========
>
>
>
Message 45
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--> RV-List message posted by: WPAerial@aol.com
i am sorry but priming really dose not mean someone is a TRUE craftsmen just
means they took extra time to prime. makes more weight, takes more time, and
for what?
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: Engines...somewhat long! |
--> RV-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss <chaskuss@bellsouth.net>
>
>>
>> snipped
>> >Figuring Normal Rated Power Output:
>> >an IO-360 turning @ 2024 rpm gives us 135 True HP at 75% and a piston
>> >speed of 1518 fpm.
>> >a 4.3L (262ci) turning @3375 rpm gives us 168 True HP at 75% and a
>> >piston speed of 1958 fpm.
>> >
>> >If you look at Absolute Maximum Power Output (Redline for application)
>> >IO-360 turning at 2650 rpm develops 180 THP and a piston speed of 2024
>fpm
>> >4.3L turning at 4500 rpm develops 223 THP and a piston speed of 2610 fpm
>> snipped
>>
>> Jim,
>> I was searching the internet looking for stock weight of the 4.3 engine.
>I came across the following page, which states the horsepower of the 4.3
>engine in the S-10 as either 180 or 190 hp at 4400 rpm
>>
>> http://www.new-cars.com/2002/chevrolet/chevrolet-s10-specifications.html
>>
>> What model of this engine produces the 223 hp you quote? Is this web site
>in error?
>> Charlie Kuss
>
>I agree that there are a lot of exagerated HP claims around but there are
>some valid reasons why some auto engines can make somewhat more than the
>rating given by the carmaker.
>Some of the main factors are:
>
>Eliminating the restrictive car exhaust system.
>Eliminating unneeded accessories like power steering pumps, air injection
>pumps, radiator fans
>Eliminating power robbing stuff like EGR
>Improved intake manifold tuning
>Running best power fuel mixture instead of best emissions (stochiometric)
>
>These factors account for the increase from 160 HP that Mazda rated the 1989
>13B to the 180 HP that I estimate I'm getting. The 4.3L Chevy will
>definitely make more power but at the cost of 100+ more pounds.
>
>A useful 'sanity check' is to calculate the theoretical CFM of air pumped by
>any given engine at the target RPM and compare that to a reference engine
>like the O - 360. If the auto engine pumps less air than the Lyc, it's not
>going to make as much power.
>
>Tracy Crook
>Mazda 13B powered RV-4 1300 Hrs.
>Mazda 20B powered RV-8 Gestation Mode
Tracy
Or you check it's fuel burn at a given percent of peak power. HP can be fairly
accurately determined that way. Losing the exhaust I'll buy. Generally that
will gain you about 15%. Do the auto manufacturers actually do hp tests with all
accessories mounted? I'm asking here, as I don't know. Are folks like Belted
Air running fuel injection or carbs? I don't see smog pumps on many cars anymore.
Electronic fuel injection eliminated the need for most smog pumps in 1986.
Improved intake manifolds? The Vortec system is very good. I don't think that
there is much there. I could be wrong though.
I was checking out aluminium block and heads for the 4.3. They cut about 90 pounds
off it's weight, but at the cost of about $3000 wholesale.
See
http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/Cylinder_Heads/4-6V.html
http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/Engine_Blocks/gm.html
I think your Mazda engine has a lot more going for it than any of the V-6 auto
engines.
Charlie
Message 47
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| Subject: | Charlie Kuss (engines) |
--> RV-List message posted by: perfeng@3rivers.net
Charlie,
Your figures are right for the S-10 application for 1998-2001. The engine I
use is not "on-road" production. It is actually one of GM's primary Marine
engines. Box stock right out of the crate 233hp @4800. Roller valve train,
60% under balanced crank, trufrided,"Pink" type rods, vortec flow profile heads.
We've put together quite a few of these for different types of applications and
every one we've had apart so far has been right down to the blueprint spec's so
very little tweeking has had to be done.
Jim D.
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