Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:38 AM - Status... (Matt Dralle)
2. 03:31 AM - Re: References... (Boyd C. Braem)
3. 04:47 AM - Re: While you guys were complaining about (Boyd C. Braem)
4. 05:14 AM - Re: sliders & tip-up (mstewart@qa.butler.com)
5. 06:04 AM - Re: RV Seat Belts/Harnesses (RV_8 Pilot)
6. 06:06 AM - Re: While you guys were complaining about Insurance companies.... (Jack Textor)
7. 06:21 AM - Re: While you guys were complaining about Insurance (Hal Rozema)
8. 06:28 AM - Re: Re: sliders & tip-up (Paul Besing)
9. 06:28 AM - Re: Re:Fw: Terrorism Act and Insurance- Long (John Helms)
10. 06:34 AM - Re: While you guys were complaining about Insurance (Chris)
11. 06:44 AM - Re: References please -- WAS:Alternative Engine Questions (Miller Robert)
12. 06:47 AM - Re: Re: sliders & tip-up (Tracy Crook)
13. 07:13 AM - Re: Single strobe power (Phil Birkelbach)
14. 07:32 AM - Re: References please -- WAS:Alternative Engine Questions (Dave Bristol)
15. 07:35 AM - drivel (Gary)
16. 07:44 AM - Simpson belts (Frazier, Vincent A)
17. 07:55 AM - Re: While you guys were complaining about Insurance companies.... (Doug Rozendaal)
18. 08:22 AM - Fw: drivel (C. Rabaut)
19. 08:52 AM - Re: References please -- WAS:Alternative (kempthornes)
20. 09:05 AM - Re: References please -- WAS:Alternative (kempthornes)
21. 09:34 AM - Re: References please -- WAS:Alternative Engine Questions (JRWillJR@aol.com)
22. 09:58 AM - Dragging brake (Austin)
23. 10:05 AM - Re: References please -- WAS:Alternative Engine Questions (JRWillJR@aol.com)
24. 10:30 AM - Re: Dragging brake (mstewart@qa.butler.com)
25. 10:48 AM - Re: References please -- WAS:Alternative Engine Questions (Tedd McHenry)
26. 10:49 AM - Re: References please -- WAS:Alternative Engine Questions (Tedd McHenry)
27. 11:16 AM - Installing Oil Temerature Transducer (Ernest Kells)
28. 11:20 AM - Nosewheel fork forward bracket threads stripping (czechsix@juno.com)
29. 11:40 AM - Re: Nosewheel fork forward bracket threads stripping (KAKlewin@aol.com)
30. 11:46 AM - Continous Priming Option?? (KAKlewin@aol.com)
31. 11:46 AM - Re: References please -- WAS:Alternative Engine Questions (JRWillJR@aol.com)
32. 12:17 PM - Re: Dragging brake (Tom & Cindy Gastrich)
33. 12:23 PM - Re: References please -- WAS:Alternative Engine Questions (BELTEDAIR@aol.com)
34. 12:36 PM - Re: Nosewheel fork forward bracket threads stripping (Jim Wittman)
35. 12:40 PM - WAS:Alternative Engine Questions (Jerry2DT@aol.com)
36. 01:00 PM - Re: References please -- WAS:Alternative Engine Questions (Tedd McHenry)
37. 01:12 PM - Re: WAS:Alternative Engine Questions (Chris)
38. 01:22 PM - Success unloading new Lycoming (Stephen Johnson)
39. 01:26 PM - Re: Dragging brake (Elsa & Henry)
40. 02:17 PM - Re: WAS:Alternative Engine Questions (Tedd McHenry)
41. 02:39 PM - Re: References please -- WAS:Alternative Engine Questions (Tracy Crook)
42. 03:37 PM - How do you put a tire and tube together (donald hostetler)
43. 03:39 PM - Re: WAS:Alternative Engine Questions (Michael McGee)
44. 03:39 PM - Alternative Engines (LarryRobertHelming)
45. 03:56 PM - Re: References please -- WAS:Alternative Engine Questions (Kyle Boatright)
46. 04:40 PM - Re: References please -- WAS:Alternative (Kevin Horton)
47. 04:48 PM - Re: References please -- WAS:Alternative Engine Questions (barry pote)
48. 05:44 PM - Issue with upper baggage bulkhead (Dan Checkoway)
49. 06:24 PM - Re: Continous Priming Option?? (Ernest Kells)
50. 06:25 PM - Re: Issue with upper baggage bulkhead (Kyle Boatright)
51. 06:33 PM - Re: References please -- WAS:Alternative Engine Questions (Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club)
52. 06:34 PM - Re: Nosewheel fork forward bracket threads stripping (Elsa & Henry)
53. 06:55 PM - Protection diodes on starter solenoid (Doug Weiler)
54. 06:58 PM - Re: Issue with upper baggage bulkhead (Tim)
55. 07:00 PM - Re: Issue with upper baggage bulkhead (Jeff Orear)
56. 07:06 PM - Re: Issue with upper baggage bulkhead (Jeff Point)
57. 07:18 PM - Re:Dragging brake (Oldsfolks@aol.com)
58. 08:21 PM - Re: Issue with upper baggage bulkhead (Kyle Boatright)
59. 08:22 PM - Re: References please -- WAS:Alternative EngineQuestions (Sam Buchanan)
60. 08:45 PM - Re: Continous Priming Option?? (George McNutt)
61. 08:53 PM - Re: Protection diodes on starter solenoid (Bill VonDane)
62. 09:17 PM - Re: Issue with upper baggage bulkhead (Jeff Point)
63. 10:07 PM - Re: Aero Electric Connection; Still in Business? ()
Message 1
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--> RV-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Listers,
As promised, here's an update on this year's List Support Gift shipping
status! Wednesday 12/11 all of the CDROM-Only and all but 12 of the
CDROM+Flight Bag Gifts were shipped out via US Parcel Post. Maximum
delivery will be 8 days to the most remote areas.
For those receiving a CDROM+Flight Bag, note that the CDROM is tucked
inside one of the pouches in the Flight Bag so don't miss it!!
The remaining Flight-Bag+CDROM, Flight Bag-Only and A&P Book Sets will go
out as soon as the next shipments arrive, hopefully in the next few days.
Once again, I want to thank everyone that made a Contribution to this
year's Email List Fund Raiser! The email and web systems are now running
on brand new APC 2.2kva UPS systems thanks to the support of List members
this year. Additionally, the Email System will be upgraded later this
month with a new, Dual Processor 2.8Ghz Linux system due to arrive any
day! Your generosity has made these upgrades possible and nothing
else! Thank you so much!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Email List Contribution Web Site: http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
DNA: do not archive
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: References... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Boyd C. Braem" <bcbraem@comcast.net>
Jim, Old Buddy! Would you like to buy some land in Florida?
Boyd.
do not archive
Jim Duckett wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Duckett <perfeng@3rivers.net>
>
> Dave,
> <snip> Elf was powered by a 1661cc engine (that's roughly 100 cubic
> inches)
> and produced 1780 Horse Power!
> <snip>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: While you guys were complaining about |
Insurancecompanies....
--> RV-List message posted by: "Boyd C. Braem" <bcbraem@comcast.net>
Tom--
He only had one engine.
Boyd.
do not archive
Tom Gummo wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Tom Gummo" <t.gummo@verizon.net>
>
> Doug,
>
> I hate you even more now. :-)
> How did you rate a ride in the F-16?
> If you ever get to Apple Valley, CA., you can't have a ride in my
> underpowered unpainted rocket
> I won't want to get that grin off your face.
> 9G's sure pulls your socks down. Did you stay awake?
>
> Tom Gummo
> Apple Valley, CA
> HR-II #78 to fly
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr@petroblend.com>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RV-List: While you guys were complaining about Insurance
> companies....
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr@petroblend.com>
> >
> > While you guys spent your time today complaining about Insurance
> > companies....
> >
> > I went for a ride in an F16!!!! Wow, What a machine!!!!!!!
> >
> > The good news is, it just further confirmed what I already knew, the RVs
> fly
> > like fighters.
> >
> > The bad news is, the grin I've got makes an RV-grin look pretty lame.
> >
> > Tailwinds,
> > Doug Rozendaal
> >
> >
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: sliders & tip-up |
--> RV-List message posted by: mstewart@qa.butler.com
<snip>
Hey Guys,
I'm still trying to decide which airplane to build. I see a lot of
discussion about the difficulty of preparing the sliders and tip-ups. Does
anyone sell a pre-made lid for these things? Why are the ones in Van's kits
so difficult to build? Would a well made lid from one RV6 fit another RV6 or
is there a high degree of variability from one plane to another?
Finally, is one style (slider vs tip-up) safer than the other?
Sorry if I'm asking stupid questions. I'm learning as quickly as I can!
Thanks for your input.
Doc
<snip>
Doc,
These replies to your posts crack me up. .
Anyways, on the having both issue. I indeed do have both. I decided on the
slider so I could macho taxi in hotlanta with my arm hanging out. However,
when my other half saw the tip up mod for the slider at SnF, well that was
that. She had complained in the past about getting into the baggage
compartment. I have very high seat backs, which made loading a challenge. We
travel in the rv a lot, so it was a pain often. It was right then that SHE
decided that decided the tip-up mod had to be done, and "can we get this on
before we go home?" soon came out of her mouth.
BTW, on a separate note, be careful when you bring your other half to shows.
It can get dicey. The tip up mod is one. Another example of diceyness was
when she saw an RV with the wife's name on the right side by the canopy.
(that guy owes me $20) Of course I got "how come my name is not on your
plane?" You know that this is a completely losing conversation from that
point forward. And off we went to the decal department on the field at SnF
to get her name made. UGHH!!
Of course do not archive this. It's a personal problem I have at home
Mike Stewart
680 hours since x-mas
happy she's my other half nonetheless
Mike Stewart
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<span
style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:bold'>snip
<font
size2 colorblack face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
bold'>Hey Guys,
<font size2 colorblack
face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
<font
size2 colorblack face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
bold'>I'm still trying to decide which airplane to build. I see a lot of discussion
about the difficulty of preparing the sliders and tip-ups. Does anyone sell
a pre-made lid for these things? Why are the ones in Van's kits so difficult
to build? Would a well made lid from one RV6 fit another RV6 or is there a high
degree of variability from one plane to another?
<font
size2 colorblack face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
bold'>
<font size2 colorblack
face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:bold'>Finally, is one
style (slider vs tip-up) safer than the other?
<font
size2 colorblack face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
bold'>
<font size2 colorblack
face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:bold'>Sorry if I'm asking
stupid questions. I'm learning as quickly as I can! Thanks for your input.
<font
size2 colorblack face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
bold'>
<font size2 colorblack
face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:bold'>Doc
<font
size2 colorblack face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
bold'>snip
<font size2 colorblack
face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
<font
size2 colorblack face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
bold'>Doc,
<font size2 colorblack
face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:bold'>These replies
to your posts crack me up. .
<font
size2 colorblack face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
bold'>Anyways, on the having both issue. I indeed do have both. I decided on the
slider so I could macho taxi in hotlanta with my arm hanging out. However, when
my other half saw the tip up mod for the slider at SnF, well that was that.
She had complained in the past about getting into the baggage compartment. I
have very high seat backs, which made loading a challenge. We travel in the rv
a lot, so it was a pain often. It was right then that SHE decided that decided
the tip-up mod had to be done, and "can we get this on before we go home?"
soon came out of her mouth.
<font
size2 colorblack face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
bold'>
<font size2 colorblack
face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:bold'>BTW, on a separate
note, be careful when you bring your other half to shows. It can get dicey.
The tip up mod is one. Another example of diceyness was when she saw an RV
with the wife's name on the right side by the canopy. (that guy owes me $20) Of
course I got "how come my name is not on your plane?" You know that this is
a completely losing conversation from that point forward. And off we went to the
decal department on the field at SnF to get her name made. UGHH!!
<font
size2 colorblack face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
bold'>
<font size2 colorblack
face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:bold'>Of course do not
archive this. It's a personal problem I have at home
<font
size2 colorblack face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
bold'>Mike Stewart
<font size2 colorblack
face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:bold'>680 hours since
x-mas
<font
size2 colorblack face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
bold'>happy she's my other half nonetheless
<font
size2 colorblack face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
bold'>
<font size2 colorblack
face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
<span style'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>
<span style'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>
<span style'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>
<span style'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Mike Stewart
<span style'font-size:
12.0pt'>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: RV Seat Belts/Harnesses |
--> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" <rv_8pilot@hotmail.com>
search the archives... doh!!
must be suffering from G-induced brain function decline!
Thanks for the reply
Bryan Jones -8
Pearland, Texas
Do Not Archive
schroth | hooker | pacific aero |seat belts | seatbelts | harnesses
Message 6
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| Subject: | While you guys were complaining about Insurance companies.... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jack Textor" <jack@personnelincorporated.com>
Doug,
How in the heck did you finagle the ride?
Jack Textor
RV8, wings
DSM
While you guys spent your time today complaining about Insurance
companies....
I went for a ride in an F16!!!! Wow, What a machine!!!!!!!
The good news is, it just further confirmed what I already knew, the RVs fly
like fighters.
The bad news is, the grin I've got makes an RV-grin look pretty lame.
Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: While you guys were complaining about Insurance |
companies....
--> RV-List message posted by: Hal Rozema <hartist1@cox.net>
Hi Guys:
Off topic, but:
I'm reading with fond memories your F-16 ride. (Pardon the intrusion on your
RV list... I'm a lurker from the Zenith side, building a VSTOL701) I am an
aviation artist with stuff in many collections including USAF Art Program. The
F-16 ride I had was due to that connection. My 45 minutes of fame turned out
to be an hour and 45 minutes and over an hour of it actual stick time. After
the typical drill weapons delivery they gave me some initial stick time
including some aerobatics. I got to dog fight our flight leader got "Dolphin
I" once he got me three times. Then a civil emergency, a dead pilot with a
female non pilot in a Cherokee had dropped below radar coverage south of
Tampa. Our radar found her and "Dolphin I" formatted on her starboard side
and flew the to a landing at some strip in the Everglades. I wound up with an
hour and forty five minutes of dual in my log book Amazing to see an F-16,
with everything hung out, slow flight down to 70 or 80 miles an hour standing
on thrust alone, side of a Piper.
Hal
theplanefolks.net
Tom Gummo wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Tom Gummo" <t.gummo@verizon.net>
>
> Doug,
>
> I hate you even more now. :-)
> How did you rate a ride in the F-16?
> If you ever get to Apple Valley, CA., you can't have a ride in my
> underpowered unpainted rocket
> I won't want to get that grin off your face.
> 9G's sure pulls your socks down. Did you stay awake?
>
> Tom Gummo
> Apple Valley, CA
> HR-II #78 to fly
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr@petroblend.com>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RV-List: While you guys were complaining about Insurance
> companies....
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr@petroblend.com>
> >
> > While you guys spent your time today complaining about Insurance
> > companies....
> >
> > I went for a ride in an F16!!!! Wow, What a machine!!!!!!!
> >
> > The good news is, it just further confirmed what I already knew, the RVs
> fly
> > like fighters.
> >
> > The bad news is, the grin I've got makes an RV-grin look pretty lame.
> >
> > Tailwinds,
> > Doug Rozendaal
> >
> >
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: sliders & tip-up |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Paul Besing" <azpilot@extremezone.com>
Unfortunately, no. If you were to put one canopy from one airplane on the
other, the fit would be so far off, you would swear it wasn't for an RV.
There are too many variables between the fuselage, canopy, canopy frame,
builder error, etc, etc to assume that these could be mass produced and put
on. I suppose if the airplane and the canopy frame was built EXACTLY to the
plans, then it would work, but this would never happen.
Paul Besing
RV-6A Sold (Waiting on the RV-10)
http://www.lacodeworks.com/besing
Kitlog Pro Builder's Log Software
http://www.kitlog.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <mstewart@qa.butler.com>
Subject: RV-List: Re: sliders & tip-up
> --> RV-List message posted by: mstewart@qa.butler.com
>
> <snip>
> Hey Guys,
>
> I'm still trying to decide which airplane to build. I see a lot of
> discussion about the difficulty of preparing the sliders and tip-ups. Does
> anyone sell a pre-made lid for these things? Why are the ones in Van's
kits
> so difficult to build? Would a well made lid from one RV6 fit another RV6
or
> is there a high degree of variability from one plane to another?
>
> Finally, is one style (slider vs tip-up) safer than the other?
>
> Sorry if I'm asking stupid questions. I'm learning as quickly as I can!
> Thanks for your input.
>
> Doc
> <snip>
>
> Doc,
> These replies to your posts crack me up. .
> Anyways, on the having both issue. I indeed do have both. I decided on the
> slider so I could macho taxi in hotlanta with my arm hanging out. However,
> when my other half saw the tip up mod for the slider at SnF, well that was
> that. She had complained in the past about getting into the baggage
> compartment. I have very high seat backs, which made loading a challenge.
We
> travel in the rv a lot, so it was a pain often. It was right then that SHE
> decided that decided the tip-up mod had to be done, and "can we get this
on
> before we go home?" soon came out of her mouth.
>
> BTW, on a separate note, be careful when you bring your other half to
shows.
> It can get dicey. The tip up mod is one. Another example of diceyness was
> when she saw an RV with the wife's name on the right side by the canopy.
> (that guy owes me $20) Of course I got "how come my name is not on your
> plane?" You know that this is a completely losing conversation from that
> point forward. And off we went to the decal department on the field at SnF
> to get her name made. UGHH!!
>
> Of course do not archive this. It's a personal problem I have at home
> Mike Stewart
> 680 hours since x-mas
> happy she's my other half nonetheless
>
>
> Mike Stewart
>
>
> <style>
> <!--
> /* Style Definitions */
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> margin-bottom:.0001pt;
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>
> <span
> style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:bold'>snip
>
>
> <font
> size2 colorblack face"Courier New"><span
style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
> bold'>Hey Guys,
>
>
> <font size2 colorblack
> face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
>
>
> <font
> size2 colorblack face"Courier New"><span
style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
> bold'>I'm still trying to decide which airplane to build. I see a lot of
discussion about the difficulty of preparing the sliders and tip-ups. Does
anyone sell a pre-made lid for these things? Why are the ones in Van's kits
so difficult to build? Would a well made lid from one RV6 fit another RV6 or
is there a high degree of variability from one plane to another?
>
>
> <font
> size2 colorblack face"Courier New"><span
style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
> bold'>
>
>
> <font size2 colorblack
> face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:bold'>Finally,
is one style (slider vs tip-up) safer than the other?
>
>
> <font
> size2 colorblack face"Courier New"><span
style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
> bold'>
>
>
> <font size2 colorblack
> face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:bold'>Sorry if
I'm asking stupid questions. I'm learning as quickly as I can! Thanks for
your input.
>
>
> <font
> size2 colorblack face"Courier New"><span
style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
> bold'>
>
>
> <font size2 colorblack
> face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:bold'>Doc
>
>
> <font
> size2 colorblack face"Courier New"><span
style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
> bold'>snip
>
>
> <font size2 colorblack
> face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
>
>
> <font
> size2 colorblack face"Courier New"><span
style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
> bold'>Doc,
>
>
> <font size2 colorblack
> face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:bold'>These
replies to your posts crack me up. .
>
>
> <font
> size2 colorblack face"Courier New"><span
style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
> bold'>Anyways, on the having both issue. I indeed do have both. I decided
on the slider so I could macho taxi in hotlanta with my arm hanging out.
However, when my other half saw the tip up mod for the slider at SnF, well
that was that. She had complained in the past about getting into the baggage
compartment. I have very high seat backs, which made loading a challenge. We
travel in the rv a lot, so it was a pain often. It was right then that SHE
decided that decided the tip-up mod had to be done, and "can we get this on
before we go home?" soon came out of her mouth.
>
>
> <font
> size2 colorblack face"Courier New"><span
style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
> bold'>
>
>
> <font size2 colorblack
> face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:bold'>BTW, on a
separate note, be careful when you bring your other half to shows. It can
get dicey. The tip up mod is one. Another example of diceyness was when she
saw an RV with the wife's name on the right side by the canopy. (that guy
owes me $20) Of course I got "how come my name is not on your plane?" You
know that this is a completely losing conversation from that point forward.
And off we went to the decal department on the field at SnF to get her name
made. UGHH!!
>
>
> <font
> size2 colorblack face"Courier New"><span
style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
> bold'>
>
>
> <font size2 colorblack
> face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:bold'>Of course
do not archive this. It's a personal problem I have at home
>
>
> <font
> size2 colorblack face"Courier New"><span
style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
> bold'>Mike Stewart
>
>
> <font size2 colorblack
> face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:bold'>680 hours
since x-mas
>
>
> <font
> size2 colorblack face"Courier New"><span
style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
> bold'>happy she's my other half nonetheless
>
>
> <font
> size2 colorblack face"Courier New"><span
style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
> bold'>
>
>
> <font size2 colorblack
> face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
>
>
> <span style'font-size:10.0pt;
> font-family:Arial'>
>
>
> <span style'font-size:10.0pt;
> font-family:Arial'>
>
>
> <span style'font-size:10.0pt;
> font-family:Arial'>
>
>
> <span style'font-size:10.0pt;
> font-family:Arial'>Mike Stewart
>
>
> <span style'font-size:
> 12.0pt'>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Terrorism Act and Insurance- Long |
--> RV-List message posted by: "John Helms" <jhelms@i1.net>
Thanks Tom,
A friend sent me a list of quotes this morning from Stephen Wright the
comedian. One of them made me think of the recent discussion/battle about
insurance I've been having here.
Just insert insurance agent where it says lawyer.
"99% of lawyers give the rest a bad name."
Thanks again Tom and others who have emailed off list and Happy Holidays.
Do not archive.
JT
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Gummo" <t.gummo@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Re:Fw: RV-List: Terrorism Act and Insurance- Long
--> RV-List message posted by: "Tom Gummo" <t.gummo@verizon.net>
HOW ABOUT WE SMOKE THE PEACE PIPE ON THIS ISSUE.
I for one have had tons of problems with avaition insurance companies.
1. First, with over 3000 hours of jet time but only 75 hours in
tailwheels, they would not allow me to fly my plane without five hours in
make and model. Guess how many Rockets you can get to fly to dual in????
2. Second, my first years payment of 4488 dollars (US) was increased to
5719 dollars for year two. I thought it was to go down as I gained
ex[erience.
3. I contacted John about a new policy. He was very helpful. Even,
after I found another policy, he still took time to answer my questions and
make some helpful suggestions.
I for one will miss him if he is driven off this list. Whether you like
insurance companies or not, he will give you a straight answer to any
question you have.
Tom Gumo
Apple Valley, CA
HR-II #78 to fly
----- Original Message -----
From: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
Subject: Fw: Re:Fw: RV-List: Terrorism Act and Insurance- Long
> --> RV-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
>
> Thanks Bert, you insurance salesman have shown me the light!
>
> do not archive
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bert Forero <bert6@mybluelight.com>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re:Fw: RV-List: Terrorism Act and Insurance- Long
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "Bert Forero" <bert6@mybluelight.com>
> >
> > RABAU:
> >
> > I learned many years ago, not to discuss the same
> > subject you are discussing now...people do not understand
> > how an Insurance company works, they make foolish
> > statements like yours...no idea...
> >
> > I have been in the Insurance business for 40 years
> > and I know what I am talking about..
> >
> > I have talked to Doctors even lawyers, and people
> > from all walks of life. They just want to believe
> > what they want, not the real world, and facts.
> >
> > Just one quick question,,Is there a company
> > which does not operate to make profit per se...
> > that is, no listed on the exchange? how about that...
> >
> > Bert
> >
> > rv6a]
> > Do Not Archive
> >
> > Sign up for Internet Service under $10 dollars a month, at
> http://isp.BlueLight.com
> >
> >
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: While you guys were complaining about Insurance |
companies....
--> RV-List message posted by: Chris <chrisw3@cox.net>
Doug Rozendaal wrote:
> While you guys spent your time today complaining about Insurance
> companies....
>
> I went for a ride in an F16!!!! Wow, What a machine!!!!!!!
>
> The good news is, it just further confirmed what I already knew, the RVs fly
> like fighters.
>
> The bad news is, the grin I've got makes an RV-grin look pretty lame.
I bet that grin wouldn't have been very big if they handed you the fuel bill :)
do not archive
--
Chris Woodhouse
3147 SW 127th St.
Oklahoma City, OK 73170
405-691-5206 (home)
chrisw@programmer.net
N35 20.492'
W97 34.342'
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: References please -- WAS:Alternative Engine Questions |
--> RV-List message posted by: Miller Robert <rmiller3@earthlink.net>
Absolutely correct.
Good example: In Italy, I had a chance to investigate co-generators. These were
devised with Fiat auto engines. Run on natural gas. Produce electricity, heat
and hot water for an apartment building. Run continuously at static RPM. Kind
of
like flying along in cruise, I guess. Co-generators are wonderfully sensible and
simple solutions to energy production. That's not what those engines were
designed for, but they perform the task well just the same.
My car, when I lived there, was a Fiat 124 with propane tanks in the trunk. There
was a switch on the dash to allow using either gasoline or propane... and you
could switch on the fly as you desired.
I know of no reason why a modern properly equipped and engineered piston engine
should, on its face, be considered unsuitable for flight. Many may be more
suitable, it seems to me, than what are accepted as "airplane engines".
The idea that some magical thing enters the design if the designer is simply
thinking about airplanes is a bit overblown, I think.
Robert
Tedd McHenry wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
>
> > >--> RV-List message posted by: Dave Bristol <bj034@lafn.org>
> > >
> > >Automotive engines are not designed to put out high HP for long periods of
> > >time as are aircraft engines.
>
> Even if that were true (which it isn't; refer to
> http://www.vansairforce.org/articles/EP/eng_auto_endurance.shtml), what matters
> is what the engine CAN do, regardless of the design intent. This is where
> Van's famous auto-engine-designer-banging-head-on-desk argument falls down.
> Automotive engines have been successfully used in airplanes, boats, water
> pumps, stationary generators, and many, many other uses, as have airplane
> engines. The suggestion that an engine can't work well in one application only
> because it was originally designed for another is nonsense, and is successfully
> ignored daily.
>
> Tedd McHenry
> Surrey, BC
> -6 wings
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: sliders & tip-up |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Tracy Crook" <lors01@msn.com>
Just finished fitting my slider canopy frame (RV-8) I'm a little worried
about it after reading recent posts. Something must be wrong. Set it in
place, saw that it was about 1/2" too narrow at front bow, took it off and
set on its side on floor, stepped on frame at front & lifted other side to
spread bow. Set it back in place on the canopy rails and everything looks
perfect. Total Elapsed time: 2 minutes. Am I doing something wrong? :-)
Van's must be getting better at these things. I'm looking forward to
having a slider while taxiing after cooking for 8 years under the hinged -4
canopy.
Do not archive
Tracy Crook
----- Original Message -----
From: <mstewart@qa.butler.com>
Subject: RV-List: Re: sliders & tip-up
> --> RV-List message posted by: mstewart@qa.butler.com
>
> <snip>
> Hey Guys,
>
> I'm still trying to decide which airplane to build. I see a lot of
> discussion about the difficulty of preparing the sliders and tip-ups. Does
> anyone sell a pre-made lid for these things? Why are the ones in Van's
kits
> so difficult to build? Would a well made lid from one RV6 fit another RV6
or
> is there a high degree of variability from one plane to another?
>
> Finally, is one style (slider vs tip-up) safer than the other?
>
> Sorry if I'm asking stupid questions. I'm learning as quickly as I can!
> Thanks for your input.
>
> Doc
Message 13
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|
| Subject: | Re: Single strobe power |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Phil Birkelbach" <phil@petrasoft.net>
I'm curious. Why use two power supplies when the XPAK 904 will power all
three heads? Also where did you mount the XPAK 904, it was a tad bigger
than I thought that it would be. I was considering mounting it just aft of
the baggage compartment bulkhead, but I'm not sure if mounting something to
the J-stringers is such a good idea.
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach
RV-7
http://www.myrv7.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Duckett" <perfeng@3rivers.net>
Subject: RV-List: Single strobe power
> --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Duckett <perfeng@3rivers.net>
>
> Like a few other have said, check out Strobes-n-More for a Nova EPS 402
> power supply. It's a 40 Watt, 2 head supply.
> I'd also recommend you look up Eric Henson's post on using the Nova
> strobe products. We have their XPAK 904 powering the wing tip strobes
> and the EPS 402 for the tail. We gave in and used the Whelen combo
lights.
>
> Jim Duckett, N708JD
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: References please -- WAS:Alternative Engine Questions |
--> RV-List message posted by: Dave Bristol <bj034@lafn.org>
Tedd McHenry wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
>
> > us also that they can be run at REDLINE & WOT, reliably, on a continuous basis
> and
> > you might get more converts.
>
> (a) You don't run them at redline, you run them well below.
That's pretty obvious with an auto engine but my point is that an O-360 is DESIGNED
AND APPROVED to run FULL TIME at these settings.
Dave
do not archive
Message 15
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|
--> RV-List message posted by: "Gary" <rv9er@3rivers.net>
Time: 05:56:54 AM PST US
From: Jim Truitt <Jim.Truitt@usdoj.gov>
Subject: RV-List: re: You're Welcome
--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Truitt <Jim.Truitt@usdoj.gov>
C. Rabaut wrote:
" But seriously, I do think that insurance agents, realtors, attorneys,
bartenders, and politicians profit inappropriately in good and bad times."
I can't believe you included bartenders in there. I'm in law enforcement
also. I like bartenders ... especially when bartenders and strippers are
together, it's always a good time. (I only know this because so many
fugitives are found in those places).
Do you guys really want this drivel to be taking up space in Matt's archives?
Come on, just get on Yahoo if you want to discuss this crap. We are fooling with
airplanes on this list.
Do you know how to spell DO NOT ARCHIVE?
Gary
---
Message 16
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|
--> RV-List message posted by: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier@usi.edu>
Bryan,
I bought the Simpson belts and am quite pleased with them. Order p/n 29063 and
you most likely will be quite happy. It is a pull down to tighten, 2" webbing
model that will bolt in AND has the right fittings included for the pilot's
shoulder harness, i.e. to wrap around the pilot seat roll bar.
DO NOT order the Latch F/X model as the buckle is too bulky, IMHO. The camloc
looks nice but is too much $$$.
Vince Frazier
1946 Stinson, NC97535, flying
F-1H Rocket, "Six Shooter", N540VF reserved,
canopy installation stage
<http://www.usi.edu/science/chemistry/vfrazier/page1.html>
Time: 09:32:44 AM PST US
From: "RV_8 Pilot" <rv_8pilot@hotmail.com>
Subject: RV-List: RV Seat Belts/Harnesses
--> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" <rv_8pilot@hotmail.com>
I'm looking at an upgrade on my -8 seat belts, and drawing a blank on the
better lines of harnesses available out there. Any suggestions? How about
Simpson Racing products? Seems like a nice looking harness for about
$165/set.
Thanks
Bryan Jones -8
Pearland, Texas
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: While you guys were complaining about Insurance companies.... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr@petroblend.com>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris" <chrisw3@cox.net>
>
> I bet that grin wouldn't have been very big if they handed you the fuel
bill :)
>
> do not archive
I get the fuel bill anyway, it is due April 15th. I am happy to pay that
portion of my taxes, whether I got the ride or not.
We took off with 8000#, landed with 1800#, so 6200# (925 gallons) for a 1
hour sortie. The fuel flow showed 41,500#/hr in burner which is 11.5 minutes
to dry tanks.
Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
Message 18
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--> RV-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
Gary,
I'm pretty darn sure all of my posts (on this drivel) have been marked
"do not archive" at the bottom.
Chuck
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary <rv9er@3rivers.net>
Subject: RV-List: drivel
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Gary" <rv9er@3rivers.net>
>
> Time: 05:56:54 AM PST US
> From: Jim Truitt <Jim.Truitt@usdoj.gov>
> Subject: RV-List: re: You're Welcome
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Truitt <Jim.Truitt@usdoj.gov>
>
> C. Rabaut wrote:
> " But seriously, I do think that insurance agents, realtors,
attorneys,
> bartenders, and politicians profit inappropriately in good and bad times."
>
> I can't believe you included bartenders in there. I'm in law enforcement
> also. I like bartenders ... especially when bartenders and strippers are
> together, it's always a good time. (I only know this because so many
> fugitives are found in those places).
>
> Do you guys really want this drivel to be taking up space in Matt's
archives? Come on, just get on Yahoo if you want to discuss this crap. We
are fooling with airplanes on this list.
>
> Do you know how to spell DO NOT ARCHIVE?
>
> Gary
>
>
> ---
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: References please -- WAS:Alternative |
EngineQuestions
--> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes <kempthornes@earthlink.net>
At 08:11 PM 12/11/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
>For a comparison of a 160-HP 4.3 Chevy
>and an O-320 see
>
> http://www.vansairforce.org/articles/EP/chevy.html
Nice to see a reference, Tedd, even if it is to your own article! A very
nice article it is too.
Durability of the auto engine conversion is a question yet to be answered
since we really don't have the history of operation in aircraft which is
certainly a different mode. However, if it can only last half as long,
1000 hours, overhaul is simple and very cheap.
Reliability is a more critical issue and may be what really concerns
builders. By reliability I mean the ability of the engine to make it to
TBO. I am inclined to believe that most engines that can make full power
for several minutes will give some signs before outright failure. A
feature of the rotary engine, I am told, is that their usual failure mode
is that they fail to start.
Of course, most of the forced landings of alternate engine aircraft that we
hear of are due to the failure of the accessories or the installation
rather than the basic or core engine.
K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne
RV6-a N7HK flying!
PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA)
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: References please -- WAS:Alternative |
EngineQuestions
--> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes <kempthornes@earthlink.net>
At 06:56 PM 12/11/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Dave Bristol <bj034@lafn.org>
>
>The O-360 is designed to to put out 180 hp (which is half of 360) FULL TIME.
Who says??? Does Lycoming say that the O360 is designed to put out 180 hp
FULL TIME? Is this a FACT or just a BELIEF of yours?
All I want to do is gets the facts, mam. I have no ax to grind here. I
don't care if people fly behind a Lycoming or a rubber band. My RV has a
new Lycoming O360 in it and I would be most unwilling to fly it anywhere
near 180 hp for more than a minute or two. In fact, I usually throttle
back in less than a minute after applying full throttle which has never
given 180 hp since I have never had it at sea level.
K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne
RV6-a N7HK flying!
PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA)
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: References please -- WAS:Alternative Engine Questions |
--> RV-List message posted by: JRWillJR@aol.com
It is a fact. The 0-360 can make full rated power for it's 2000 hour TBO. If
you get the FAR's out that deal with certification and read them and if you
have ever dealt with engineers and the FAA cert programs one would quickly
learn that the reason it costs so much money and time to certify an engine or
whatever is the tremendous amount of proof that is required to substantiate
the certification and of course this converts into an even larger pile of
paper work. We may not wish to run our engines that hard but it is a fact
they can do it. This is proven by decades of harsh service from flight
schools to the bush country and is backed up by the certification
requirements. The Lycasourous may be ancient but it is proven and reliable.
Do all certified engines run full TBO without any problems --of course
not--but with reasonable care they will. Do Not Archive. JR, A&P, breaking
ground on a new shop
Message 22
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|
--> RV-List message posted by: "Austin" <6430@axion.net>
Listers,
My right brake tends to drag sometimes and makes an awful
groan if I press on it to taxi.
When I get out of the airplane to push it back, it is difficult until I
reach in and pull the right pedal back, which only comes back about 1/8
inch, and then she free wheels fine....
This does not happen every time, but does so a lot of the time.....
What do I do to fix this one ?
Thanks for your views,
Austin.
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: References please -- WAS:Alternative Engine Questions |
--> RV-List message posted by: JRWillJR@aol.com
I really am not against auto engines, I think a Chevy Vwhatever aluminum
block and heads with a good PRSU may (may) be a good route to a less
expensive engine, I cannot say but it seems reasonable. The thing that gets
me is the Lycoming and "aviation type" engines are said to be ancient, old
fashioned, low tech, etc so I was also always of the mind (being a import car
owner myself) that Chevy type V6/V8 engines were at least as old and low tech
as the Lycoming is. What makes a Chevy V6 High tech? and other than the
potential for lower costs (and that is important) what exactly makes it
better. The V engine design, nah, water cooling, why is that better and for
what purpose, pushrods, the Lyc has those, these are engine designs that are
at least as old as the Lycoming or older. Stripped of the smog mandated
electronics they are as low tech as a Lycoming and that may be a good thing.
Do Not Archive. JR
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Dragging brake |
--> RV-List message posted by: mstewart@qa.butler.com
<snip>
--> RV-List message posted by: "Austin" <6430@axion.net
<mailto:6430@axion.net?subject=Re:%20Dragging%20brake&replyto=200212121756.g
BCHuEM15010@matronics.com> >
Listers,
My right brake tends to drag sometimes and makes an awful
groan if I press on it to taxi.
When I get out of the airplane to push it back, it is difficult until I
reach in and pull the right pedal back, which only comes back about 1/8
inch, and then she free wheels fine....
This does not happen every time, but does so a lot of the time.....
What do I do to fix this one ?
Thanks for your views,
Austin.
<snip>
Well well, I am not the only one with the dreaded groaning brake problem.
I did not have a dragging brake though. So here is what I finally came up
with on the groaning brake.
Here is a snip from my web site:
<snip>
This is really pissin me off. You know that groan the brakes make when you
stop in a 757. You know the kind that makes the whole plane shake? Well this
is happening to me. I have relined the brakes twice for good measure,
scuffed and cleaned the rotor, replaced the fluid in that line, used that
blue goopy stuff for cars, repacked the bearings twice, with no luck. Van's
says they don't know and have only heard of this once, Cleveland actually
told me this is VERY common in all rv models. I am still workin this
problem. I have some of the e-mails below for your reading pleasure.
Hi There.
Serial # 25708. RV-6A. First flight dec 2001 a few months ago.
The right brake is moaning and vibrating the whole plane in all
conditions and all speeds below 40mph, always, when brakes are
applied.
There is no dragging, and I have replaced the pads, scuffed the
rotor, rebuilt the master cylinder, replaced the seal in the
caliper, replaced the fluid, with absolutely no change.
The caliper appears to my novice self to be a bit loose on the pins.
I have felt others and I believe mine has more slack than others.
I have repacked the bearings.
Any ideas? Mike
From: Scott Risan [mailto:scottr@vansaircraft.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 12:05 PM
> To: Michael Stewart
> Subject: Re: noisy groaning brake
>
> Mike, saw this on one other plane and it turned out to be the flex
> lines that the builder used to run down the gear leg. these lines
> started a 'harmonic' (for lack of a better word) when the brakes were
> applied due to the expansion/contraction of the hose. the lines
> themselves made a 'horendous' noise. If you have flex lines running
> down to your callipers, check this out. even if you have solid lines,
> it might be installed just right to set up this kind of harmonic
> vibration. try changing the lines or taping them to the gear legs in
> a few extra spots and see if things change. let me know if this is
> the case...i would be interested to know.
Well I have hard lines, and well taped. Cleveland says replace the rotor. I
did that. I replaced the fluid, rebuilt the master cylinder, ect.
<snip>
So after all that, I ended up shimming the pad to caliper with an .020 piece
of alum. Basically what you are trying to do is to have a little pressure on
the trailing edge of the brake pad, as the tire rotates. So make a shim,
with a hole for the caliper pin to fit through to hold it in place, on the
up side of the pad, so that as the wheel rotates, the trailing side of the
pad has a little more pressure than the leading edge of the pad. Again as
the wheel rotates. The groan is acting much like an eraser on a pencil when
you push it across a table. One way it slides, another way, it skips. It's
the skipping of the pad that is likely causing the groan. I spent many
hours figuring this out on mine.
Good luck.
I hope I explained this in an understandable form.
BTW, on the master cyl not retracting, there is a spring in there that you
could tweak a bit longer to get it to retract the pedal. Also be sure the
pedal is completely free.
Mike Stewart
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<span
style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:bold'>snip
<font
size2 colorblack face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
bold'>-- RV-List message posted by: <span
style'font-weight:bold'>Austin <a
href"mailto:6430@axion.net?subjectRe:%20Dragging%20brakereplyto200212121756.gBCHuEM15010@matronics.com">6430@axion.net
<font
size2 colorblack face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
bold'>
<font size2 colorblack
face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:bold'>Listers,
<font
size2 colorblack face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
bold'> My right brake tends to drag sometimes and makes an awful
<font
size2 colorblack face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
bold'>groan if I press on it to taxi.
<font
size2 colorblack face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
bold'>When I get out of the airplane to push it back, it is difficult until I
<font
size2 colorblack face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
bold'>reach in and pull the right pedal back, which only comes back about 1/8
<font
size2 colorblack face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
bold'>inch, and then she free wheels fine....
<font
size2 colorblack face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
bold'>This does not happen every time, but does so a lot of the time.....
<font
size2 colorblack face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
bold'>What do I do to fix this one ?
<font
size2 colorblack face"Courier New"><span style'font-size:10.0pt;font-weight:
bold'>Thanks for your views,
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>Austin<span
style'font-weight:bold'>.
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>snip
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>Well well, I am not the only one with
the dreaded groaning brake problem.
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>I did not have a dragging brake though.
So here is what I finally came up with on the groaning brake.
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>Here is a snip from my web site:
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>snip
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>This is really pissin me off. You
know that groan the brakes make when you stop in a 757. You know the kind that
makes the whole plane shake? Well this is happening to me. I have relined the
brakes twice for good measure, scuffed and cleaned the rotor, replaced the
fluid in that line, used that blue goopy stuff for cars, repacked the bearings
twice, with no luck. Van's says they don't know and have only heard of this
once, Cleveland<span
style'font-weight:bold'> actually told me this is VERY common in all rv
models. I am still workin this problem. I have some of the e-mails below for
your reading pleasure.
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>Hi There.
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>Serial # 25708. RV-6A. First flight dec
2001 a few months ago.
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>The right brake is moaning and
vibrating the whole plane in all
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>conditions and all speeds below
40mph, always, when brakes are
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>applied.
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>There is no dragging, and I have
replaced the pads, scuffed the
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>rotor, rebuilt the master cylinder,
replaced the seal in the
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>caliper, replaced the fluid, with
absolutely no change.
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>The caliper appears to my novice self
to be a bit loose on the pins.
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>I have felt others and I believe mine
has more slack than others.
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>I have repacked the bearings.
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>Any ideas? Mike
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>From: Scott Risan
[mailto:scottr@vansaircraft.com]
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002<span
style'font-weight:bold'> 12:05 PM
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'> To: <span
style'font-weight:bold'>Michael Stewart
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'> Subject: Re: noisy groaning
brake
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'> Mike, saw this on one other
plane and it turned out to be the flex
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'> lines that the builder used to
run down the gear leg. these lines
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'> started a 'harmonic' (for lack
of a better word) when the brakes were
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'> applied due to the
expansion/contraction of the hose. the lines
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'> themselves made a 'horendous'
noise. If you have flex lines running
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'> down to your callipers, check
this out. even if you have solid lines,
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'> it might be installed just right
to set up this kind of harmonic
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'> vibration. try changing the
lines or taping them to the gear legs in
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'> a few extra spots and see if
things change. let me know if this is
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'> the case...i would be interested
to know.
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>Well I have hard lines, and well
taped. Cleveland<span
style'font-weight:bold'> says replace the rotor. I did that. I replaced the fluid,
rebuilt the master cylinder, ect.
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>snip
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>So after all that, I ended up shimming
the pad to caliper with an .020 piece of alum. Basically what you are trying to
do is to have a little pressure on the trailing edge of the brake pad, as the tire
rotates. So make a shim, with a hole for the caliper pin to fit through to hold
it in place, on the up side of the pad, so that as the wheel rotates, the trailing
side of the pad has a little more pressure than the leading edge of the pad. Again
as the wheel rotates. The groan is acting much like an eraser on a pencil when
you push it across a table. One way it slides, another way, it skips. It's
the skipping of the pad that is likely causing the groan. I spent many hours figuring
this out on mine.
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>Good luck.
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>I hope I explained this in an understandable
form.
<span
style'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold'>BTW, on the master cyl not retracting,
there is a spring in there that you could tweak a bit longer to get it to retract
the pedal. Also be sure the pedal is completely free.
<span style'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>
<span style'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Mike Stewart
<span style'font-size:
12.0pt'>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: References please -- WAS:Alternative Engine Questions |
--> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
> That's pretty obvious with an auto engine but my point is that an O-360 is DESIGNED
> AND APPROVED to run FULL TIME at these settings.
What exactly IS your point? I've presented evidence in support of the
assertion that an auto engine can put out adequate power reliably for hundreds
of hours, evidence that you have not refuted. So please, what is your point?
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
-6 wings
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: References please -- WAS:Alternative Engine Questions |
--> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
> It is a fact. The 0-360 can make full rated power for it's 2000 hour TBO.
Please provide a reference for this. It has been confidently stated on this
list before that the full-power certification test is 100 hours. I think
that's a point that should be clarified.
It seems to be common knowledge that if you run a Lycoming at 24-squared (and
otherwise treat it reasonably) you have a good chance of making TBO, but if you
run it harder you don't. Twenty-four-squared is 75 percent of rated power.
It's important to understand that auto engines ARE tested at loads and RPMs as
high as or even higher than they would see in aircraft use, for hundreds of
hours. The assertion that auto engines are not tested for the kinds of loads
they would see in aircraft use is simply not true.
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
-6 wings
Message 27
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|
| Subject: | Installing Oil Temerature Transducer |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ernest Kells" <ernest.kells@sympatico.ca>
I want to document, for the archives, the information for installing Van's
(IE VOT25) oil temperature gauge. If I can get responses for Van's
transducer solution with/and without the adapter, I will combine them for
the archive.
I am installing the oil temp gauge now. The Vans instructions basically say
"install the sender". They say that most builders need the (VA-147)
adapter. There appears to be no info in the archives or in all the many
books that I have.
For my application it appears to be the following. My O-235 N2C has an oil
fitting (for oil returning from the cooler) located on the accessory pad
just above the left magneto. On top of the protrusion there is screw hole
containing a 3/8" nut (hex key). I believe that I need to replace the nut
with Van's (IE 02017-00) tranducer using the normal torque. I apparently
would just return the VA-147 adapter to Vans. It appears that the clearance
from the engine mount is rather small. I plan to install it before mounting
the engine next week. Removing the transducer after engine mounting looks
pretty tight. Any comments? It appears that the Adapter is required to
install the transducer on the other side of the accessory pad. Any
comments?
I would appreciate some feedback on this. Thanks
do not archive
Ernest Kells - RV-9A O235-N2C, Wood Prop
Finish Kit 85% Complete
Message 28
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| Subject: | Nosewheel fork forward bracket threads stripping |
--> RV-List message posted by: czechsix@juno.com
Guys,
Had a weird thing happen today...I remounted my nosewheel fairing to
check the fit and when I went to remove it, I had a hard time getting the forward
bracket bolts out (the ones with a hex head--this is the
new-style wheel pant on my RV-8A if that makes a difference, but I think
they're all the same). They seemed be binding up during removal, and
once I got them out, there was metal on the threads....almost like it
stripped out some of the internal threads tapped into the nosegear fork.
I'm totally mystified because they went in pretty easy (didn't have any
signs of being cross-threaded) and I didn't torque them down, just barely snug
enough to check the wheel pant fit. I've had them in and out at least a dozen
times now during the fitting process for the nosewheel pant.
I'm thinking I'll try running a tap through to clean up the threads and
maybe get a couple new bolts from the local hardware store (if I can find them),
but...has anyone else with a training wheel had problems like this? I'm not
even flying yet so I'm not too encouraged with the
longevity of this arrangement as it will have to be removed/replaced
periodically. The threads are looking pretty messed up.
Maybe I should have got a taildragger afterall : )
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D fiberglass...
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Nosewheel fork forward bracket threads stripping |
--> RV-List message posted by: KAKlewin@aol.com
Mark,
Had this happen a few weeks ago....(Im not flying yet either)....the hex
nuts with the kit were too long (rubbed on the nose gear) so I cut them down.
In trying to rethread one side it messed it up some. So I ran a tap
through the hole and ran a die over the hex nut to clean it up. Put some
WD40 on both and it works great now. Hope it doesn't happen again!! Good
Luck
Kurt in OKC, RV6A Finishing...
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 30
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| Subject: | Continous Priming Option?? |
--> RV-List message posted by: KAKlewin@aol.com
Howdy again all,
In discussing my primer set up with a fellow RV9 builder and A&P he made a
suggestion I would like to run by the list. I have the standard electric
primer sold by vans that runs a 1/8in line to 3 cyl that is controlled by a
momentary on switch in the panel. He suggested that maybe I change the
switch to an ON/OFF switch so you could run the primer continuously. His
idea was in an emergency (non-catastrophic and fuel/air related) you could
run the primer continuously and adjust the throttle to restore (hopefully)
partial power to the engine. I assume if this theory holds any water it
would be for a blocked intake or some type of carb problem?? (I have a
Aerosport O-360 on the way with a normal carb) Any comments, suggestions, or
inputs??
Kurt in OKC
RV6A Finishing....
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: References please -- WAS:Alternative Engine Questions |
--> RV-List message posted by: JRWillJR@aol.com
In a message dated 12/12/2002 12:52:24 PM Central Standard Time,
tedd@vansairforce.org writes:
> What exactly IS your point? I've presented evidence in support of the
> assertion that an auto engine can put out adequate power reliably for
> hundreds
> of hours, evidence that you have not refuted. So please, what is your
> point?
Please do not think I am being argumentative and I know you were responding
to another person. I do not reject your statement or the assertion there is
proof. Some guys should just be airplane engine guys and others auto engine
guys I guess. What would act as proof for me would be for a conversion to be
put through the same rigorous process that the "aviation type" engines have
been subjected to. Someday when the weather is poor and you are bored call
the FSDO and tell them you want to certify a Chevy V6 for aviation use. After
they get through rolling on the floor in laughter they will tell you to
submit your cert program telling the test program and providing engineering
analysis. After you offer them your program they will suggest changes,
additions, conditions etc. You will then be required to meet your program
requirements demonstrated on test stands and flying test beds. At some point
you might get a TC if all goes well and you might make them eat their
laughter. They will not care if the engine ran 5 billion miles on a pickup
truck or can pull 5 skiers at 60 MPH in a boat. They will not care if Uncle
Tom has one in his car and it has never required service, the only thing they
will care about is what it does when you put it in an airplane with a prop on
it and they will make you prove every statement. Do Not Archive. JR
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Dragging brake |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Tom & Cindy Gastrich" <WJ8M@alaska.com>
I can see a couple things it could be. If you have to physically retract or
pull back the pedal mechanism, the problem might be in the mechanics of it.
I would detach things in sorta of a progression and see if you can find
anything. It is also very important to allow the calipher to "float".
The brakes are designed to allow the unit (part with the discs attached) to
move back and forth across the rotor. The flex line near the unit serves
this purpose. If it is not long enough or has a twist in it the unit . The
least that will happen is one disc will wear much faster than the other
because it is always being held against the rotor brakes being applied or
not. This could also manifest itself as a vibration (not felt but possibly
heard) when the rotor disc is at higher rpms. Next time it does this see if
the unit will wiggle (the part with the pads) in relation to the disc. Have
a glove on because it may be hot, especially if it were dragging or being
held to one side. Tom Gastrich
>> My right brake tends to drag sometimes and makes an awful
> groan if I press on it to taxi.
>> Austin.
>
>
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: References please -- WAS:Alternative Engine Questions |
--> RV-List message posted by: BELTEDAIR@aol.com
Well, JR you just explained why Cont. and Lyc. can't make any progress
either.
Do Not Archive.
Message 34
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| Subject: | Nosewheel fork forward bracket threads stripping |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Wittman" <fmico@iaxs.net>
Hi Mark,
I have an older 6A that has shown that problem in extremis. The threads had
stripped to where the hex bolt couldn't be tightened. A 3/8 helicoil fixed
I pretty easily. Jim Wittman
MIC
Message 35
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| Subject: | WAS:Alternative Engine Questions |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry2DT@aol.com
Fellow RVers...
For illumination on the subject of auto engines being run at WOT, please go
to "Google" and type in"Subaru Endurance Record" If memory serves, way back
in 1989 or so, Subaru ran away with the world endurance record by running 18
days, 24/7 at WOT, averaging 135+mph including stopping for driver changes,
gas, etc. Believe this was with the 2.2L (135 c.i.d.) 4-banger. The current
Subaru 2.5L 4 cyl has 5 massive crank journals to support 4 massive rod
journals with relatively small pistons. I have owned 2 Lycomings in the past
and loved them, but not sure they would withstand 400+ hours WOT at sea
level. BTW, the engines Subaru ran were production engines, not some special
one-off racing design. Hope this helps.
Jerry Cochran
Wilsonville, OR
RV6a/90/70
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: References please -- WAS:Alternative Engine Questions |
--> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
> What would act as proof for me would be for a conversion to be
> put through the same rigorous process that the "aviation type" engines have
> been subjected to.
That would certainly be nice, and you should definitely not build or fly
anything you're uncomfortable with. But you're building an entire airplane
that hasn't been proven that way.
The engine in your RV will not be certified, regardless of what engine you use.
A very important part of the certification process is the certification of the
specific engine installation in the specific airframe. If you have an
engine-related problem it's far more likely to come from ancillary engine
systems or installation problems than from the engine, per se. There's no
difference between a Lycoming and any of the alternatives in that respect.
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
-6 wings
do not archive
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: WAS:Alternative Engine Questions |
--> RV-List message posted by: Chris <chrisw3@cox.net>
Before I add some more of my 2 cents worth, let me point out that I don't really
know what I am talking about. Even if the automotive engines have great
endurance at high power output, they aren't doing it with a prop hanging of the
end of the crank, which seems as though that would be a huge factor. I guess
sense most auto conversions would use a PSRU that wouldn't be near as much of a
factor as it would be if the prop were directly attached to the crank, but still
a factor I would think.
Do not archive
--
Chris Woodhouse
3147 SW 127th St.
Oklahoma City, OK 73170
405-691-5206 (home)
chrisw@programmer.net
N35 20.492'
W97 34.342'
Message 38
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| Subject: | Success unloading new Lycoming |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Stephen Johnson" <spjohnsn@ix.netcom.com>
Thanks for the advice from everyone both on list and off. I built a ramp
from two 4'x4' squares of 3/4" plywood and four 8 foot long 2x4's with some
extra length obtained by adding two sections of 2x4 to bring the total ramp
length to about 11 feet. I would recommend this approach for anyone needing
to unload a Lycoming from a truck without a lift gate.
Steve Johnson
RV-8 #80121 fuse
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Dragging brake |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Elsa & Henry" <elsa-henry@darlor-watch.com>
Austin, (and others afflicted with dragging brakes): A few years ago, during
my 7 year building period, I remember reading somewhere that it is BAD thing
to press on the brake pedals without any fluid in the system. If you climbed
into your partially completed fuselage pretending to be wannabe pilots with
A/C noises, etc, and pressed your empty pedals a lot ,you may have
compressed the springs to the point that they yielded their spring action.
There is hardly any compression on them when the master cylinders are full
and the system is bled, but when empty, they get fully compressed by the
total cylinder piston travel.You may have to get new springs from Cleveland
to cure the problem.
Cheers!! --------Merry Christmas!-----Henry Hore--RV6-A
hangared at CYCC,
Cornwall,
Ontario.
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: WAS:Alternative Engine Questions |
--> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry2DT@aol.com
>
--snip--
> in 1989 or so, Subaru ran away with the world endurance record by running 18
> days, 24/7 at WOT, averaging 135+mph including stopping for driver changes,
Thanks for sending that, Jerry. I remember when it happened, and I've wanted
to bring it up several times in RV List discussions about auto engine
endurance, but didn't have any documentation to back it up before. (This
record is documented on the Subaru Canada web site, and others.)
According to the Subaru web site, that's 452 hours at WOT. Given the speed
(139 mph in a Legacy), it's got to be darned close to peak power for the
engine. (Note "peak" power, not "rated" power.) My recollection is that on
teardown the engine was still within production tolerances, but I haven't been
able to confirm that. If you treat 450 hours as TBO (clearly very
conservative), and compare the cost of a Subaru rebuild to a Lycoming rebuild,
it makes the Eggenfellner engine look like a pretty good option.
(As an aside, I personally feel that the Eggenfellner engine is a little small
for the RV-7 or 8, but I believe it's a good choice for an RV-9. They've sold
over a hundred of them already.)
By the way, the previous record holder was the Saab 9000 Turbo, which ran 472
hours at WOT. The record is for average speed over 100,000 km, so fewer hours
is "better."
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
-6 wings
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: References please -- WAS:Alternative Engine Questions |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Tracy Crook" <lors01@msn.com>
Actually, it is not that difficult to pass the certification tests. Last
time I checked, there was only a 150 hour engine test required with
something like 50 or 100 at full power. This could be accumulated in any
number of engine runs.
What IS difficult is the traceability requirements. Can you document what
batch of metal that block is from? That's hard and very expensive to do.
Auto conversions will never likely be certified as long as this requirement
is in place.
BTW, I thought aircraft engines were rated at 5 minutes maximum at full
rated power. 75% after that. Never owned one so straighten me out if this
is wrong.
Do not archive
Tracy Crook RV-4 flying, RV-8 fitting canopy
----- Original Message -----
From: <JRWillJR@aol.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: References please -- WAS:Alternative Engine Questions
> --> RV-List message posted by: JRWillJR@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 12/12/2002 12:52:24 PM Central Standard Time,
> tedd@vansairforce.org writes:
>
>
> Please do not think I am being argumentative and I know you were
responding
> to another person. I do not reject your statement or the assertion there
is
> proof. Some guys should just be airplane engine guys and others auto
engine
> guys I guess. What would act as proof for me would be for a conversion to
be
> put through the same rigorous process that the "aviation type" engines
have
> been subjected to. Someday when the weather is poor and you are bored call
> the FSDO and tell them you want to certify a Chevy V6 for aviation use.
After
> they get through rolling on the floor in laughter they will tell you to
> submit your cert program telling the test program and providing
engineering
> analysis. After you offer them your program they will suggest changes,
> additions, conditions etc. You will then be required to meet your program
> requirements demonstrated on test stands and flying test beds. At some
point
> you might get a TC if all goes well and you might make them eat their
> laughter. They will not care if the engine ran 5 billion miles on a pickup
> truck or can pull 5 skiers at 60 MPH in a boat. They will not care if
Uncle
> Tom has one in his car and it has never required service, the only thing
they
> will care about is what it does when you put it in an airplane with a prop
on
> it and they will make you prove every statement. Do Not Archive. JR
>
>
Message 42
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| Subject: | How do you put a tire and tube together |
--> RV-List message posted by: "donald hostetler" <loclas@hotmail.com>
Ask the experts. See page 4:
http://195.154.239.169/aviation/care/files/08%20General%20Mounting%2Epdf
If it's good enough for the space shuttle it's good enough for me.
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: WAS:Alternative Engine Questions |
--> RV-List message posted by: Michael McGee <jmpcrftr@teleport.com>
At 15:10 12/12/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Chris <chrisw3@cox.net>
>
>Before I add some more of my 2 cents worth, let me point out that I don't
>really
>know what I am talking about. Even if the automotive engines have great
>endurance at high power output, they aren't doing it with a prop hanging
>of the
>end of the crank, which seems as though that would be a huge factor. I guess
>sense most auto conversions would use a PSRU that wouldn't be near as much
>of a
>factor as it would be if the prop were directly attached to the crank, but
>still
>a factor I would think.
You're going (thinking) down the right road, Chris. The concern here is
for the gyroscopic forces that the prop flange has to deal with when you
run your plane through a few whifferdils. Bending forces of over 600
ft-lbs at the prop flange are not unusual for some aerobatic
maneuvers. Even for the AEIO Lycs it isn't unusual to find a bent crank
flange if the plane has been subject to some real nasty unlimited
acro. Also note that the TBO for some of these is in the 400 hour range.
Depending on the mission profile for your plane you will want to consider
if the PSRU/redrive on your alternative engine choice has been engineered
for this type of life style. The ones I'm familiar with, Real World
Solutions planetary PSRU http://www.rotaryaviation.com/ and Power Sports
internal spur gear PSRU http://www.POWERSPORTAVIATION.COM/, have been
engineered for the higher stress of mild aerobatics. One unusual
application on a Long Ez (I know .. just an example here)
http://www.bridgingworlds.com/duckt.htm has the prop and extension directly
mounted to the flywheel as you described, yet it has had no problems for
several hundred hours so far. It's also not in the Long Ez mission profile
to do the kinds of aerobics the RV is intended for.
Wow, that got a little long winded. Viva la' experimental!
Mike
Mike McGee, RV-4 N996RV, O320-E2G, Hillsboro, OR
13B in gestation mode
Message 44
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| Subject: | Alternative Engines |
--> RV-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming@sigecom.net>
Here is a reference I based part of my thoughts on when making my engine
decision. It may be of help to others posting here who have ideas about
using an alternative engine in an RV.
http://www.prime-mover.org/Engines/Torsional/contact1/contact1.html
Larry in Indiana
Building an RV7 - that will be named and flown under the call of 3XG
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: References please -- WAS:Alternative Engine Questions |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright" <kyle.boatright@adelphia.net>
Tedd,
In response to your statement below, I don't think the issue is that "auto
engines CAN'T work well in another application". Instead, the issue is that
auto engines, and more specifically, auto engines and their associated
systems have not been demonstrated to work well in the aviation application.
This isn't to say it can't be done, but so far, there are no conversions out
there with enough units in the field x enough flight hours to make the claim
that such-and-such a conversion is superior to the tried and true Lycoming.
With that, I'm outta this thread. The horse is not only dead, but the
carcass is badly picked over.
KB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tedd McHenry" <tedd@vansairforce.org>
Subject: Re: RV-List: References please -- WAS:Alternative Engine Questions
> --> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
>
> > >--> RV-List message posted by: Dave Bristol <bj034@lafn.org>
> > >
> > >Automotive engines are not designed to put out high HP for long periods
of
> > >time as are aircraft engines.
>
> Even if that were true (which it isn't; refer to
> http://www.vansairforce.org/articles/EP/eng_auto_endurance.shtml), what
matters
> is what the engine CAN do, regardless of the design intent. This is where
> Van's famous auto-engine-designer-banging-head-on-desk argument falls
down.
> Automotive engines have been successfully used in airplanes, boats, water
> pumps, stationary generators, and many, many other uses, as have airplane
> engines. The suggestion that an engine can't work well in one application
only
> because it was originally designed for another is nonsense, and is
successfully
> ignored daily.
>
> Tedd McHenry
> Surrey, BC
> -6 wings
>
>
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: References please -- WAS:Alternative |
EngineQuestions
--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorto1537@rogers.com>
>--> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes <kempthornes@earthlink.net>
>
>At 06:56 PM 12/11/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>>--> RV-List message posted by: Dave Bristol <bj034@lafn.org>
>>
>>The O-360 is designed to to put out 180 hp (which is half of 360) FULL TIME.
>
>Who says??? Does Lycoming say that the O360 is designed to put out 180 hp
>FULL TIME? Is this a FACT or just a BELIEF of yours?
>
>All I want to do is gets the facts, mam. I have no ax to grind here. I
>don't care if people fly behind a Lycoming or a rubber band. My RV has a
>new Lycoming O360 in it and I would be most unwilling to fly it anywhere
>near 180 hp for more than a minute or two. In fact, I usually throttle
>back in less than a minute after applying full throttle which has never
>given 180 hp since I have never had it at sea level.
>
The FAA Type Certificate Data Sheet for the Lycoming O-360 lists the
rated maximum continuous power as 180 hp. So, as far as the FAA is
concerned, the engine is capable of producing 180 hp continuously.
However, I would be very surprised if the 2,000 hr TBO assumed the
engine was producing 180 hp continuously, as no one operates these
engines that way. I've searched the web, but I can't find any info
on how TBO intervals are defined. I would expect the TBO was based on
a more normal type of operation.
These discussions on the suitability of auto engines appear to have
gone off on a strange tangent. As far as I can tell, the biggest
risk in an auto conversion isn't that the engine itself may have a
major failure. Most of the failures I've heard of were failures of
the ancillary systems (reduction drives, cooling system, fuel
injection or carburetors etc), not failures of the basic engine. We
simply need to get enough service history on auto conversions to
learn which ancillary systems are reliable, and which ones are not.
--
Kevin Horton RV-8 (baffles, induction air, oil cooler)
Ottawa, Canada
http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
Message 47
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| Subject: | Re: References please -- WAS:Alternative Engine Questions |
--> RV-List message posted by: barry pote <barrypote@comcast.net>
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I am in the midst of trying an all
aluminum (Bowtie block, Brodix heads) 4.3 V6, alternate engine in my
RV9a.
Time will tell if it is a good choice.
But I am compelled to tell a story told to an RV build'm class in
Griffin, Georgia, by Alex Sloan, instructor, and EAA upper escalon,
office holder, as well as top notch golf instructor.
I think this is important for all to keep in mind, when it comes to
engines, be it Lycoming or Auto.
1. Alex told of a fellow he knew that built a world class Velocity-type
aircraft. The fellow won the big award at the 1st flyin that it went to.
He had bought a mid time engine that looked good and installed it, as
is. Within a month, the engine broke on take off and he and the plane
were lost.
2. Alex then told one on himself. He bought an engine that was supposed
to be good, from a reputable dealer. It was for his own plane. He took
it to the local
school that taught aircraft mechanics and had them tear it down. It
looked good on the outside. It was bought from a well known dealer, but
it was junk inside. Not a part was useable.
My point is this. If you buy a used engine, even if it is a Lycoming,
the least that should be done is a partial tear down to look for
potential problems. Better yet, have a good guy tear it down and
reassemble it, as someone ,in a post last week, said.
One reason I am going with a Chevy, I have a long experience with them.
Another is, and this has not been mentioned, those Lyosaurs (emotive
word) that have a 2000 between......even if you buy a new one.....do
they go that long without some major work? Check the ads "400 since
major, 100 since head"." 1000 since major, 0 since top". There are a lot
of birds out there with similar wording in their ads. I admit that I
don't know enough to know if that is to be expected, but I know the used
market is rife with that kind of ad.
I know this post is long, but Alex thought it was important, and he
should know.
I think it is important to think about.
Barry Pote RV9a
Message 48
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| Subject: | Issue with upper baggage bulkhead |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
I'm about to trim the curved shape into the F-652 upper baggage bulkhead
(corrugated skin that attaches to F-706). I have an issue with the stock
Van's sent me. There's a bent-back LIP at the very edge that is baffling
me! Here are some photos:
http://www.rvproject.com/f652_issue.html
It would be no big freakin' deal if the stock was tall enough to just cut
off the extra, but there is NO extra. The stock is exactly 34" wide and 10
5/8" tall (if the bend were straightened), but the lip points AFT. It's not
even like it's bent in the same direction as the corrugation. Weird.
Did anybody else have this issue with their F-652? I'm really
baffled...this is definitely not damage, but I don't see the purpose! I
assume Van's just shipped out a bogus skin to me, but it's after hours. I'm
not about to take my hand seamer to this to try to get it straight...screw
that! I would love other builder's perspective on this issue...
Thanks in advance,
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D (fuselage)
http://www.rvproject.com
Message 49
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| Subject: | Re: Continous Priming Option?? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ernest Kells" <ernest.kells@sympatico.ca>
Hello, Kurt: I am installing a primer system that seems the same as you
described. I am thinking about the switches well. One option that I am I
am considering is an (ON) OFF ON switch. I was thinking of installing it
with the (ON) up so that temporary prime would be the normal start, and
throw it all the way down to ON for emergency or continuous use. Still
waffling!!
Ernest Kells - RV-9A O235-N2C, Wood Prop
Finish Kit 85% Complete
> In discussing my primer set up with a fellow RV9 builder and A&P he made
a
> suggestion I would like to run by the list. I have the standard electric
> primer sold by vans that runs a 1/8in line to 3 cyl that is controlled by
a
> momentary on switch in the panel. He suggested that maybe I change the
> switch to an ON/OFF switch so you could run the primer continuously. His
> idea was in an emergency (non-catastrophic and fuel/air related) you could
> run the primer continuously and adjust the throttle to restore (hopefully)
> partial power to the engine.....
Message 50
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| Subject: | Re: Issue with upper baggage bulkhead |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright" <kyle.boatright@adelphia.net>
Your part is fine. That lip is at the top of the lower of the two
corrugated pieces, and adds stiffness without pushing the top piece out of
alignment, which is what would happen if that lip pointed forward.
KB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
Subject: RV-List: Issue with upper baggage bulkhead
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
>
> I'm about to trim the curved shape into the F-652 upper baggage bulkhead
> (corrugated skin that attaches to F-706). I have an issue with the stock
> Van's sent me. There's a bent-back LIP at the very edge that is baffling
> me! Here are some photos:
>
> http://www.rvproject.com/f652_issue.html
>
> It would be no big freakin' deal if the stock was tall enough to just cut
> off the extra, but there is NO extra. The stock is exactly 34" wide and
10
> 5/8" tall (if the bend were straightened), but the lip points AFT. It's
not
> even like it's bent in the same direction as the corrugation. Weird.
>
> Did anybody else have this issue with their F-652? I'm really
> baffled...this is definitely not damage, but I don't see the purpose! I
> assume Van's just shipped out a bogus skin to me, but it's after hours.
I'm
> not about to take my hand seamer to this to try to get it straight...screw
> that! I would love other builder's perspective on this issue...
>
> Thanks in advance,
> )_( Dan
> RV-7 N714D (fuselage)
> http://www.rvproject.com
>
>
Message 51
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| Subject: | Re: References please -- WAS:Alternative Engine Questions |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club" <sisson@mcleodusa.net>
do not archive
I am running a lycoming 0-360-A4K converted to Bendix Fuel inj. My normal flight
is climb up into the aerobatic practice box (over the airport), fly for 15
minutes or so, and return to the hangar.
I use the throttle like an on-off switch. normal RPM's are 2900 to 3300 depending
on flight attitude. I only throttle back for a spin or snap roll, otherwise it
is
balls to the wall. I have about 525 since overhaul.
My abnormal flight is a cross-country with an RPM of 2700 to 2800.
Prop is a Sensenich 76/56.
The plane in the hangar with me is flown the same way except he gets about 3350
or more. (was formerly owned by Bob Heredeen)
Both are S1S Pitt's. Phil
Do not archive
JRWillJR@aol.com wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: JRWillJR@aol.com
>
> It is a fact. The 0-360 can make full rated power for it's 2000 hour TBO. If
> you get the FAR's out that deal with certification and read them and if you
> have ever dealt with engineers and the FAA cert programs one would quickly
> learn that the reason it costs so much money and time to certify an engine or
> whatever is the tremendous amount of proof that is required to substantiate
> the certification and of course this converts into an even larger pile of
> paper work. We may not wish to run our engines that hard but it is a fact
> they can do it. This is proven by decades of harsh service from flight
> schools to the bush country and is backed up by the certification
> requirements. The Lycasourous may be ancient but it is proven and reliable.
> Do all certified engines run full TBO without any problems --of course
> not--but with reasonable care they will. Do Not Archive. JR, A&P, breaking
> ground on a new shop
>
Message 52
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| Subject: | Re: Nosewheel fork forward bracket threads stripping |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Elsa & Henry" <elsa-henry@darlor-watch.com>
Any time you thread a hard metal into a soft metal, (or vice-versa) you
should use anti-seize compound on the threads. That's why it's called
anti-SIEZE compound. I use Permatex's stuff and if you have an engine in
your velocipede with an aluminum cylinder head, they tell you to use the
same stuff on the spark-plugs! "Elementary my dear Watson"!
Cheers!!---------Henry Hore
Message 53
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| Subject: | Protection diodes on starter solenoid |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Weiler" <dougweil@pressenter.com>
Fellow Listers:
I'm a little confused as usual about those darn electrons. On my
"about-to-fly" RV-4, I am getting a voltage surge when I release the starter
(my EI engine instruments go nuts). I do have diodes on my master switch
and starter solenoid which are from Van's diode protection kit. But I'm not
sure whether I have them wired correctly now that I am cranking the starter
and this surge appears (and I lost the installation instructions).
My starter solenoid (supplied from Van's) has two small terminals "S" and
"I". I have the blue diode connected from the "S" terminal to ground with
the red band of the diode next to the "S" terminal. Is this correct?? My
wiring has a wire running from the "S" terminal to the starter pushbutton,
and the "I" terminal runs to the small terminal on my Sky Tech Starter.
If this is correct, why am I getting a surge (I will check the ground
tomorrow also)
Help is always appreciated!!
Doug Weiler
Hudson, WI
Message 54
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| Subject: | Re: Issue with upper baggage bulkhead |
--> RV-List message posted by: Tim <rv9a_000@deru.com>
Dan Checkoway wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
>
> I'm about to trim the curved shape into the F-652 upper baggage bulkhead
> (corrugated skin that attaches to F-706). I have an issue with the stock
> Van's sent me. There's a bent-back LIP at the very edge that is baffling
> me! Here are some photos:
>
> www.rvproject.com/f652_issue.html
I am just about at the same step on my RV9a, and
my F-652 has the identical "lip" as yours.
It's a good question - I can't see why this was done
from the plans, but unless we got bad parts from the
same batch, that extra bend was probably put there
for a reason... which we will promptly discover after
cutting and drilling exactly the wrong way. :-)
- Tim.
RV9a fuselage - "Finishing the inside of the cabin".
Message 55
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| Subject: | Re: Issue with upper baggage bulkhead |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Orear" <jorear@new.rr.com>
Dan:
That lip that you are seeing is to go on the bottom of the upper rear
baggage panel. It is there so that when you screw the top panel to the
bottom, the seam that they make will be nice and flush. It is the same
concept as curling the edge of overlapping skins so the skin does not pull
up at the edge and leave a gap between skins when the rivets are driven
along their edges.
So don't trim that edge of the top baggage panel. Leave that lip for when
you screw the mess together.
Hope that helps. Sorta just did that so we are doin' the same stuff
Regards,
Jeff Orear
RV6A
fuselage
Peshtigo, WI
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
Subject: RV-List: Issue with upper baggage bulkhead
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
>
> I'm about to trim the curved shape into the F-652 upper baggage bulkhead
> (corrugated skin that attaches to F-706). I have an issue with the stock
> Van's sent me. There's a bent-back LIP at the very edge that is baffling
> me! Here are some photos:
>
> http://www.rvproject.com/f652_issue.html
>
> It would be no big freakin' deal if the stock was tall enough to just cut
> off the extra, but there is NO extra. The stock is exactly 34" wide and
10
> 5/8" tall (if the bend were straightened), but the lip points AFT. It's
not
> even like it's bent in the same direction as the corrugation. Weird.
>
> Did anybody else have this issue with their F-652? I'm really
> baffled...this is definitely not damage, but I don't see the purpose! I
> assume Van's just shipped out a bogus skin to me, but it's after hours.
I'm
> not about to take my hand seamer to this to try to get it straight...screw
> that! I would love other builder's perspective on this issue...
>
> Thanks in advance,
> )_( Dan
> RV-7 N714D (fuselage)
> http://www.rvproject.com
>
>
Message 56
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| Subject: | Re: Issue with upper baggage bulkhead |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
Uh, Kyle, I think you as mistaking this for the bottom piece. The
bottom piece does have a bend 90deg aft, which the shoulder rub blocks
get riveted to. The top piece does indeed have a slight bend to the
rear, for no apparent reason. Mine looks just like your pictures
(except painted grey ;) I just drilled it (not in the bend) and when it
is all screwed down, it looks fine. The bend sort of flattens out, like
using an edge rolling tool on skin edges. I have no idea what the bend
is for- maybe a bit of extra rigidity?
Don't sweat it, just cut it and drill it.
Jeff Point
RV-6 finish kit
Milwaukee WI
Kyle Boatright wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright" <kyle.boatright@adelphia.net>
>
>Your part is fine. That lip is at the top of the lower of the two
>corrugated pieces, and adds stiffness without pushing the top piece out of
>alignment, which is what would happen if that lip pointed forward.
>
>KB
>
>
>
>
Message 57
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| Subject: | Re:Dragging brake |
--> RV-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com
The post about pressing the pedal with no fluid in the system is correct.
To solve the problem , I took the springs off and stretched them . A little
extra strength doesn't bother anything here .
The brake only releases in the last .065 travel . That's 65 thousandths !!
Be sure the rod is coming ALL the way back when you release the pedal.
RV-4 , N1191X , Flying Now
Charleston, Arkansas
Message 58
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| Subject: | Re: Issue with upper baggage bulkhead |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright" <kyle.boatright@adelphia.net>
Yep, you're right. That is the bottom of the top piece, and adds stiffness
and prevents puckering.
I used to be much better at answering these questions when the airplane was
in the garage where I could go look at instead of in a hangar at the
airport...
KB
Do not archive.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Point" <jpoint@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Issue with upper baggage bulkhead
> --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
>
> Uh, Kyle, I think you as mistaking this for the bottom piece. The
> bottom piece does have a bend 90deg aft, which the shoulder rub blocks
> get riveted to. The top piece does indeed have a slight bend to the
> rear, for no apparent reason. Mine looks just like your pictures
> (except painted grey ;) I just drilled it (not in the bend) and when it
> is all screwed down, it looks fine. The bend sort of flattens out, like
> using an edge rolling tool on skin edges. I have no idea what the bend
> is for- maybe a bit of extra rigidity?
>
> Don't sweat it, just cut it and drill it.
>
> Jeff Point
> RV-6 finish kit
> Milwaukee WI
>
> Kyle Boatright wrote:
>
> >--> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright"
<kyle.boatright@adelphia.net>
> >
> >Your part is fine. That lip is at the top of the lower of the two
> >corrugated pieces, and adds stiffness without pushing the top piece out
of
> >alignment, which is what would happen if that lip pointed forward.
> >
> >KB
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 59
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| Subject: | Re: References please -- WAS:Alternative EngineQuestions |
--> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
Kevin Horton wrote:
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorto1537@rogers.com>
>
> >--> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes <kempthornes@earthlink.net>
> >
> >At 06:56 PM 12/11/2002 -0800, you wrote:
> >>--> RV-List message posted by: Dave Bristol <bj034@lafn.org>
> >>
> >>The O-360 is designed to to put out 180 hp (which is half of 360) FULL TIME.
> >
> >Who says??? Does Lycoming say that the O360 is designed to put out 180 hp
> >FULL TIME? Is this a FACT or just a BELIEF of yours?
> >
> >All I want to do is gets the facts, mam. I have no ax to grind here. I
> >don't care if people fly behind a Lycoming or a rubber band. My RV has a
> >new Lycoming O360 in it and I would be most unwilling to fly it anywhere
> >near 180 hp for more than a minute or two. In fact, I usually throttle
> >back in less than a minute after applying full throttle which has never
> >given 180 hp since I have never had it at sea level.
> >
>
> The FAA Type Certificate Data Sheet for the Lycoming O-360 lists the
> rated maximum continuous power as 180 hp. So, as far as the FAA is
> concerned, the engine is capable of producing 180 hp continuously.
>
> However, I would be very surprised if the 2,000 hr TBO assumed the
> engine was producing 180 hp continuously, as no one operates these
> engines that way. I've searched the web, but I can't find any info
> on how TBO intervals are defined. I would expect the TBO was based on
> a more normal type of operation.
Isn't it true that the only way to run one of these engines at max power
for an extended amount of time is to skim across the waves of the ocean?
As soon as we climb above sea level, the engine is no longer producing
100% power. Matter of fact, we lose about one inch of manifold pressure
per thousand feet gained.
The ideal flight would be to push the throttle all the way forward on
takeoff, leave it wide open as we climb to an altitude where full
throttle yields 75% power, and leave the throttle all the way forward
until it is time to descend.
There is no way I can get the engine in my RV-6 to produce rated power
because max power occurs at 2700 rpm, and the prop is limited to 2600
rpm. Since initial climb-out near sea level in my RV-6 at full throttle
is only about 2340 rpm, I am proving that an RV will fly just fine on
about 130 hp! :-)
Sam Buchanan (RV-6, and don't mind a bit using all the throttle)
Message 60
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| Subject: | Continous Priming Option?? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "George McNutt" <gmcnutt@intergate.ca>
Subject: RV-List: Continous Priming Option??
--> RV-List message posted by: KAKlewin@aol.com
Howdy again all,
In discussing my primer set up with a fellow RV9 builder and A&P he made a
suggestion I would like to run by the list. I have the standard electric
primer sold by vans that runs a 1/8in line to 3 cyl that is controlled by a
momentary on switch in the panel. He suggested that maybe I change the
switch to an ON/OFF switch so you could run the primer continuously.
Kurt in OKC
RV6A Finishing....
Hi Kurt
Nice to see a new topic, the alternative engine issue has become a lot like
the discussion my wife & I had many years ago about the toilet seat being
left up or down, no matter about facts, I was wrong!
I don't recommend that suggested primer switch idea for following reasons.
1) If you have ever witnessed a engine fire during start caused by over
priming, backfire, you might not like the idea. Amazing how big that ball of
flame can be, maybe big enough to make you panic and jump out with your fire
extinguisher leaving the master switch ON and the primer continuing to fuel
the fire.
2) Switch would have to be a garded and/or spring loaded to OFF otherwise
inadvertantly activating the switch in flight (bumped in turbulance, night
etc) could cause engine problems.
3) This would be a non-standard setup and might someday cause a problem for
some other pilot or owner (read liability).
I had the same thoughts as you about the primer being used to run the engine
if mixture control broke and went to idle, in fact I plumbed all four
cylinders for prime and opened up the primer nozzels slightly. I have a
pushbutton primer switch.
It will run on the primer (12-1300 RPM) on ground, (rich and rough) but I
have not tested engine in flight to see what happens, instead I put a small
spring on mixture arm to return mixture to rich if the cable fails.
George McNutt
Langley, B.C.
Message 61
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| Subject: | Re: Protection diodes on starter solenoid |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" <n8wv@vondane.com>
Doug... I didn't use Van's protection kit, but I used diodes to protect my
electrical system throughout... You can see my wiring diagram here:
.pdf format: http://www.vondane.com/wiring/dwg/n8vd_wdwg_r4.pdf
.html format: http://www.vondane.com/wiring/dwg/_HTML/n8vd_wdwg_r4_frame.htm
Hope this helps...
-Bill VonDane
RV-8A ~ 80 hrs
www.vondane.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Weiler" <dougweil@pressenter.com>
Subject: RV-List: Protection diodes on starter solenoid
--> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Weiler" <dougweil@pressenter.com>
Fellow Listers:
I'm a little confused as usual about those darn electrons. On my
"about-to-fly" RV-4, I am getting a voltage surge when I release the starter
(my EI engine instruments go nuts). I do have diodes on my master switch
and starter solenoid which are from Van's diode protection kit. But I'm not
sure whether I have them wired correctly now that I am cranking the starter
and this surge appears (and I lost the installation instructions).
My starter solenoid (supplied from Van's) has two small terminals "S" and
"I". I have the blue diode connected from the "S" terminal to ground with
the red band of the diode next to the "S" terminal. Is this correct?? My
wiring has a wire running from the "S" terminal to the starter pushbutton,
and the "I" terminal runs to the small terminal on my Sky Tech Starter.
If this is correct, why am I getting a surge (I will check the ground
tomorrow also)
Help is always appreciated!!
Doug Weiler
Hudson, WI
Message 62
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| Subject: | Re: Issue with upper baggage bulkhead |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
Don't feel bad, I had to run out to the garage to take a look, and I had
just left there 5 minutes ago.
Jeff
Do not archive.
Kyle Boatright wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright" <kyle.boatright@adelphia.net>
>
>Yep, you're right. That is the bottom of the top piece, and adds stiffness
>and prevents puckering.
>
>I used to be much better at answering these questions when the airplane was
>in the garage where I could go look at instead of in a hangar at the
>airport...
>
>KB
>
>Do not archive.
>
>
>
Message 63
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| Subject: | Re: Aero Electric Connection; Still in Business? |
--> RV-List message posted by: <towertoy@earthlink.net>
____ Original Message ____
Time: 08:50:56 PM PST US
From: Mark and Sabina Gilbert
Subject: RV-List: Aero Electric Connection; Still in Business?
--> RV-List message posted by: Mark and Sabina Gilbert
Is the Aero Electric Connection still in business? I ordered the shrink
wrapped electrical guide on November 23rd, and 18 days later it still has
not arrived, even though I received a confirming email the day I placed the
order stating that it would be sent by priority mail. I didn't get a
response to my email to Bob Nuckoll's site inquiring about the order status
either. Any clues out there?
Mark
Sacramento
RV6A, wings
---- New post ----
I too ordered the book and CD from Bob about the same time. Here is his reply
to an e-mail I sent to him.
At 11:57 PM 12/11/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>Below is the result of your inquiry. It was submitted by
>David Toy (Towertoy@earthlink.net) on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 at
23:57:19
>
>Wednesday, December 11, 2002
>
>David Toy
>
>,
>Email: Towertoy@earthlink.net
>Comments/Questions: I previously placed the following order with
>you. There was no date given on when to expect the delivery. This is not
>a complaint but simply an inquiry as to expected shipping date. Also,
>please use the easiest and cheapest shipping possible for you.
I am temporarily out of books. Expect more from printers
next week. Sorry for delay.
Bob . . .
Dave Toy
Towertoy@earthlink.net
Still in the "thinking about building" stage.
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