Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:06 AM - Re: F-1 accident preliminary report (Gordon or Marge Comfort)
2. 06:45 AM - Re: F-1 accident preliminary report (glenn williams)
3. 07:21 AM - Re: fuel vent exit fittings...anything cleaner? (Chris)
4. 07:29 AM - Re: F-1 accident preliminary report (mstewart@qa.butler.com)
5. 08:00 AM - Re: F-1 accident preliminary report (rv6tc)
6. 08:47 AM - Losing tails and helping your buddy (Denis Walsh)
7. 08:47 AM - Yaw stability ramblings, was F-1 accident preliminary report (Doug Rozendaal)
8. 08:59 AM - AN Hdwe. Reference Guide (Oldsfolks@aol.com)
9. 09:28 AM - Com radio kit (Stephen J. Soule)
10. 09:36 AM - Re: Substituting blind rivets for AN426-3 (lucky macy)
11. 10:05 AM - Cowl prep (Andy Karmy)
12. 10:18 AM - Re: Yaw stability ramblings, was F-1 accident preliminary report (JRWillJR@aol.com)
13. 10:35 AM - Re: Anywhere Map GPS (Paulbaird@aol.com)
14. 11:06 AM - latest bargain basement updates (Aircraft Technical Book Company)
15. 11:06 AM - Re: Cowl prep (mstewart@qa.butler.com)
16. 11:29 AM - Re: Hartwell Latch (czechsix@juno.com)
17. 11:42 AM - Re: Substituting blind rivets for AN426-3 (Joel Haynes)
18. 12:24 PM - Re: Re: Substituting blind rivets for AN426-3 (Dan Checkoway)
19. 12:24 PM - Re: Dynon EFIS-D10 Progress Update?? (Gillian Torode)
20. 01:29 PM - Re:Comm Radio Kit (Oldsfolks@aol.com)
21. 01:40 PM - Re: Com radio kit (Cy Galley)
22. 02:34 PM - RV4 front seat cushion (Bruce Bell)
23. 02:53 PM - Lycoming O-320 Starting Problems ()
24. 02:54 PM - Re: Cowl prep (Jim Oke)
25. 03:32 PM - Re: Lycoming O-320 Starting Problems (Cy Galley)
26. 03:35 PM - Re: Lycoming O-320 Starting Problems (kempthornes)
27. 03:49 PM - Re: Lycoming O-320 Starting Problems (George McNutt)
28. 03:53 PM - Re: Soldering torch on sale at Radio Shack thru 2 Feb - cancel incorrect info (David Carter)
29. 04:00 PM - Re: Lycoming O-320 Starting Problems (Larry Pardue)
30. 04:09 PM - Re: Lycoming O-320 Starting Problems (Alex Peterson)
31. 04:13 PM - Re: Lycoming O-320 Starting Problems (Ross Scroggs)
32. 04:46 PM - Re: Lycoming O-320 Starting Problems (Gary Zilik)
33. 04:46 PM - Re: Lycoming O-320 Starting Problems (Michel)
34. 05:00 PM - Re: Lycoming O-320 Starting Problems (Dave Bristol)
35. 05:16 PM - Re: Yaw stability ramblings, was F-1 accident preliminary (Jerry Springer)
36. 05:28 PM - Re: Lycoming O-320 Starting Problems (Alex Peterson)
37. 06:22 PM - Pre-drilled hole misalignment (Geoff Evans)
38. 06:22 PM - Anybody doing Transition Training In Texas or Florida in a 6A? (Dan DeNeal)
39. 07:17 PM - Re: Pre-drilled hole misalignment (Kyle Boatright)
40. 07:44 PM - Wiring SL40 to Flightcom 403 (Steve J Hurlbut)
41. 07:56 PM - Re: Lycoming O-320 Starting Problems (Craig Warner)
42. 08:03 PM - Re: Losing tails and helping your buddy (Eustace Bowhay)
43. 08:03 PM - Hoses (Eustace Bowhay)
44. 08:08 PM - Re: Wiring SL40 to Flightcom 403 (RGray67968@aol.com)
45. 09:34 PM - Re: Lycoming O-320 Starting Problems (H.Ivan Haecker)
46. 10:00 PM - Re: Re: Round Headlamps or Taxi / landing light (Randall Henderson)
47. 10:00 PM - Re: Fuel selector valve attach (Randall Henderson)
48. 10:31 PM - Hartzell AD (Dan Checkoway)
49. 10:46 PM - Tubing spacers or washers between elevator control horns? (Dan Checkoway)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: F-1 accident preliminary report |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Gordon or Marge Comfort" <gcomfo@tc3net.com>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Prior" <rv7@b4.ca>
Subject: RE: RV-List: F-1 accident preliminary report
> --> RV-List message posted by: Rob Prior <rv7@b4.ca>
>
> > > Just to add a couple of thoughts along the line of flight
> > > without a vertical
> > > stab. It probably depends on the aircraft and how
> > > directionally stable it
> > > is before loosing the fin & rudder.
> >
> > The Airbus that crashed in late 2001 in NYC yawed so bad after the
> > rudder/fin separated that the engines were peeled off the wings. If a
> > similar amount of side area is ahead of the CG as compared to aft of it,
> > little yaw stability will be present without the fin/rudder.
> >
> Just to add some more variety, there are many anecdotal stories of WWII
> bombers and fighters coming back from missions with missing control
> surfaces, and i'm sure i've read more than one account of returning
> without a fin/rudder. As I recall the return involved very carefully
> chosen manoeuvers, ie. gentle 1-2 degree bank turns, etc.
>
> I wonder if varying the engine power would cause enough yaw to be
> effective? At least in getting the aircraft back to it's base? The
> landing may be awkward, but at least you'd be home...
>
> Do not archive.
>
> -RB4
Listers: My understanding of the tailless designs is that they have some
other way to manage yaw, as some have mentioned. The Northrop flying wing
(jet version), even with control surfaces intended to control yaw, required
vertical surfaces to make it manageable. Even so, the military rejected it
partly because it oscillated in yaw to the extent that it was thought not to
make a good bombing platform. The B-2 has specialised control surfaces
managed by a computer. The B-52 mentioned did not lose all its vertical
surfaces, part of the fin remained and the pilot was clever enough to use
differential thrust and his remaining controls to land the aircraft. Most of
the military aircraft that lost control surfaces in combat and survived,
retained some or all of the fixed surfaces.
In conventional aircraft, especially those that are very maneuverable, the
stability margins are somewhat lower. Also, the prop is destabilizing when
in a tractor arrangement. Total loss of the vertical surfaces on a plane
like the F1 Rocket would leave the pilot with no way to control yaw or even
dampen it. The ailerons, if applied, would introduce yaw to a system that
would likely be unstable and quite content to go sideways. Yaw induced by
the ailerons would induce rolling excursions that would quickly become
unmanageable. The elevators could increase the angle of attack but without
control of yaw (and roll) the angle of attack increase would not be helpful.
The positive pitch stability that remained would tend to put the nose down
and that would be the end. The Airbus basically went ballistic, to coin a
phrase.
That's my belief anyway. It would be nice to have someone like Barnaby
Wainfan do a good description of the F1 event
Gordon Comfort
N363GC
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: F-1 accident preliminary report |
--> RV-List message posted by: glenn williams <willig10@yahoo.com>
Kevin thanks again for your input. You and I work for
the same company. As I have been throught the 601, 604
and 45 schools I have been in the simulator and have
failed certain flight controls. However being failed
they are still "attached" My line of thinking was that
if the aircraft was in stable forward flight and the
vertical ripped off, the aircraft might still be able
to be controllable. I have done exactly what you
describe in flying a rubber band balsa model with no
vertical stab attached. However the body is so small
it does not have enough drag to "streamline" into the
wind. I guess the rv is this way as well?
Thanks again
Glenn Williams
do not archive
-
--- Kevin Horton <khorto1537@rogers.com> wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton
> <khorto1537@rogers.com>
>
> Well, if you were to start reducing the size of the
> VS to nothing,
> and then start increasing the side area in the front
> part of the
> fuselage, at some point in this whole process the
> aircraft's nose
> would no longer want to point in the direction it
> was going. I
> really don't know at what point in the process this
> point would be.
>
> It is interesting to note that all aircraft I know
> of have some sort
> of vertical stabilizing surface or surfaces. I
> suspect that if
> aircraft could keep the nose pointed into wind
> without a VS that
> someone would be flying one that way, as one less
> surface would be
> less weight and drag. The closest thing I know to
> an aircraft
> without a VS is the original prototype Gee Bee R-1,
> which had no VS
> on its first flight. The rudder was attached to the
> rear of the
> fuselage. However they added a VS after the first
> flight, even
> though this aircraft was a racer, and extra surface
> area would slow
> it down.
>
>
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/4515/bobtail22.JPG
>
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/4515/geebeer2.html
>
> Try taking a rubber band powered model that was
> designed to have a
> VS, then remove the VS and rudder, and let us know
> how it flies.
>
> Kevin
>
> At 7:01 AM -0800 9/1/03, Glenn Williams wrote:
> >--> RV-List message posted by: glenn williams
> <willig10@yahoo.com>
> >
> >I understand. But wouldnt the drag of the fuselage
> >cause the aircraft to streamline in the relative
> >direction of the wind? I mean you have a slipstream
> >and a propeller out there in the front. It seems
> that
> >the aircraft would try to track in a somewhat
> straight
> >fashion and if you have elevator authority it would
> >appear that you might be able to salvage some sort
> of
> >controlability of the aircraft unless you have a
> total
> >malfunction of the push rods going to the control
> >surface. Would you agree? or disagree?
> >
> >Thanks for the input
> >
> >Glenn Williams
> >
> >do not archive
> >
> >--- Kevin Horton <khorto1537@rogers.com> wrote:
> >> --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton
> >> <khorto1537@rogers.com>
> >>
> >> Well, if the VS came off, the aircraft would
> >> probably no longer be
> >> stable directionally, so the nose would likely
> slice
> >> left or right,
> >> leading to a very large sideslip angle. The
> >> aircraft could even end
> >> so the tail was going first for a short period
> (i.e.
> >> greater than a
> >> 90 deg sideslip angle). In any event, the wings
> >> wouldn't provide
> >> much lift if the sideslip angle got great
> enough,
> >> and if there is
> >> less lift than weight the flight path will
> become
> >> more and more
> >> vertical.
> >>
> >> If the nose isn't pointing somewhat in the
> direction
> >> of flight, it
> >> doesn't matter what the pilot does with the
> elevator
> >> - he won't have
> >> much control of things.
> >>
> >> Kevin Horton
> >>
> >> At 10:31 AM -0800 8/1/03, you wrote:
> >> >--> RV-List message posted by: glenn williams
> >> <willig10@yahoo.com>
> >> >
> >> >I have heard that the vertical stab departed
> and I
> >> >have heard the horizontal departed. If the
> vertical
> >> >stab departed, would the pilot still have had
> >> elevator
> >> >authority? I heard the aircraft went in almost
> >> >vertical. If you lose the vertical stab you
> lose
> >> yaw
> >> >not elevator authority if I am correct, Or did
> the
> >> >elevator push rod fail as a result of the
> vertical
> >> >pulling off?
> >> >
> >> >Just curious
> >> >
> >> >Glenn Williams
> >> >
> > > >do not archive
>
>
>
> Contributions
> any other
> Forums.
>
> latest messages.
> List members.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm
> Digests:http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>
>
>
>
=====
Glenn Williams
8A
A&P
N81GW
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: fuel vent exit fittings...anything cleaner? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Chris <chrisw3@cox.net>
Dan,
I looked at the preview plans, and I don't like the way that works either. I
don't like the idea I have come up with as much as I could either, but I think
it is better than what is in the plans. It involves using what is known as an
"O-Ring Face Seal" or as Parker calls it a "Seal-lok" fitting. So here is what
I would do.
First download the pdf file from Parker on their Seal-Lok fittings for reference
at.
http://www.parker.com/tfd/cat/pdffiles/B-Seallok.pdf
There are a few different approaches but this is the general idea. Start by
getting a Cap fitting (Parker p/n 4 FNL) drill a hole in it the size of the id
of the fitting. Cut a screen to a size to fit in to the cap. Grind the surface
of the cap at as much of an angle as you can, you won't be able to get the 45
degrees shown in the plans but I think it should still work fine. then put the
screen in the cap and screw it on to a fitting like the Parker p/n 4 XHLO it
should be able to mate up with that fitting sticking through the floor skin and
then you can put your 37 degree flared tube on the other end. That fitting
isn't a "bulkhead" fitting but I think it will work anyway. I didn't see any
other fitting that would do the trick with out a bunch of adapters in-between.
Dan Checkoway wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
>
> RV-7 tailwheel tip-up...the plans call for using a bulkhead union fitting
> where the fuel vent lines exit the floor. They call out slicing the forward
> face at an angle and covering the opening with a piece of screen. I assume
> it was the same on earlier models.
>
> Is there a more elegant solution, i.e. something you can buy off the shelf?
> The thought of having to file off the threads and slice this thing, then
> basically gluing on a screen sounds kludgy, although yeah, it works and it's
> cheap. But what I'm after is a pre-made exit fitting that would look
> prettier out of the box.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> )_( Dan
> RV-7 N714D (fuselage)
> http://www.rvproject.com
--
Chris Woodhouse
3147 SW 127th St.
Oklahoma City, OK 73170
405-691-5206 (home)
chrisw@programmer.net
N35 20.492'
W97 34.342'
Message 4
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| Subject: | F-1 accident preliminary report |
--> RV-List message posted by: mstewart@qa.butler.com
The description below by Gordon is a very good explanation.
I was flying a 1/4 scale p-51(yes it was a monster) r/c doing inverted low
passes over pavement, when I took the rudder and vert fin off the plane.
I have placed in international events both in acro, free-style, and scale,
so I would consider myself and expert r/c stick. As described below, the
adverse yaw was quite apparent to me as the flight continued w/o any vert
fin or rudder. About 4-6 oscillations and the plane snap rolled violently,
then proceeded in a spin to the earth from about 300 feet, with absolutely
no way to stop it. I had plenty of time to mess with the controls and try
various deflections in an attempt to recover the plane. No Joy.
This little scenario with an r/c of this size and type I would consider a
very close resemblance to what would happen to an rv in the event of a loss
of vert fin and rudder. Gordons description below describes exactly my real
world experience.
Mike Stewart
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: Gordon or Marge Comfort [mailto:gcomfo@tc3net.com]
Subject: Re: RV-List: F-1 accident preliminary report
--> RV-List message posted by: "Gordon or Marge Comfort" <gcomfo@tc3net.com>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Prior" <rv7@b4.ca>
Subject: RE: RV-List: F-1 accident preliminary report
> --> RV-List message posted by: Rob Prior <rv7@b4.ca>
>
> > > Just to add a couple of thoughts along the line of flight
> > > without a vertical
> > > stab. It probably depends on the aircraft and how
> > > directionally stable it
> > > is before loosing the fin & rudder.
> >
> > The Airbus that crashed in late 2001 in NYC yawed so bad after the
> > rudder/fin separated that the engines were peeled off the wings. If a
> > similar amount of side area is ahead of the CG as compared to aft of it,
> > little yaw stability will be present without the fin/rudder.
> >
> Just to add some more variety, there are many anecdotal stories of WWII
> bombers and fighters coming back from missions with missing control
> surfaces, and i'm sure i've read more than one account of returning
> without a fin/rudder. As I recall the return involved very carefully
> chosen manoeuvers, ie. gentle 1-2 degree bank turns, etc.
>
> I wonder if varying the engine power would cause enough yaw to be
> effective? At least in getting the aircraft back to it's base? The
> landing may be awkward, but at least you'd be home...
>
> Do not archive.
>
> -RB4
Listers: My understanding of the tailless designs is that they have some
other way to manage yaw, as some have mentioned. The Northrop flying wing
(jet version), even with control surfaces intended to control yaw, required
vertical surfaces to make it manageable. Even so, the military rejected it
partly because it oscillated in yaw to the extent that it was thought not to
make a good bombing platform. The B-2 has specialised control surfaces
managed by a computer. The B-52 mentioned did not lose all its vertical
surfaces, part of the fin remained and the pilot was clever enough to use
differential thrust and his remaining controls to land the aircraft. Most of
the military aircraft that lost control surfaces in combat and survived,
retained some or all of the fixed surfaces.
In conventional aircraft, especially those that are very maneuverable, the
stability margins are somewhat lower. Also, the prop is destabilizing when
in a tractor arrangement. Total loss of the vertical surfaces on a plane
like the F1 Rocket would leave the pilot with no way to control yaw or even
dampen it. The ailerons, if applied, would introduce yaw to a system that
would likely be unstable and quite content to go sideways. Yaw induced by
the ailerons would induce rolling excursions that would quickly become
unmanageable. The elevators could increase the angle of attack but without
control of yaw (and roll) the angle of attack increase would not be helpful.
The positive pitch stability that remained would tend to put the nose down
and that would be the end. The Airbus basically went ballistic, to coin a
phrase.
That's my belief anyway. It would be nice to have someone like Barnaby
Wainfan do a good description of the F1 event
Gordon Comfort
N363GC
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: F-1 accident preliminary report |
--> RV-List message posted by: "rv6tc" <rv6tc@earthlink.net>
The B-52 in question lost the majority of its vertical stab in mountain
wave turbulence over the front range of Colorado near Colorado Springs. As
said before, there was part of the tail remaining, which gave them a bit of
yaw stability, but not enough. In a conference call with Boeing engineers,
it was determined that the A/C could lower the rear trucks of it's landing
gear, if the pulled a circuit breaker for the front trucks, thereby adding
drag on the rear of the aircraft. That gave them sufficient stability to
land the plane.
Keith
Denver
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gordon or Marge Comfort" <gcomfo@tc3net.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: F-1 accident preliminary report
> The B-52 mentioned did not lose all its vertical
> surfaces, part of the fin remained and the pilot was clever enough to use
> differential thrust and his remaining controls to land the aircraft.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Losing tails and helping your buddy |
--> RV-List message posted by: Denis Walsh <denis.walsh@attbi.com>
Some excellent RV list comments on the possible consequences of losing the
vertical stabilizer. I believe your chance of surviving an in flight tail
departure in and RV is near the square root of zero. Having said that, I
have very high confidence in the sturdiness of the RV tail when it is
attached according to the plans, and operated within design limitations.
I am fairly familiar with the B-52 incident in Colorado of some years ago.
The crew was a Boeing highly qualified factory crew, who were seeking out
turbulence in an instrumented B-52G. Their purpose was to get a handle on
the forces involved in such low level flight. Several earlier models
(taller tails) B-52s had lost their tails with fatal results in low level
high speed flight conditions.
In fact, the crew had carefully rehearsed what to do if the vertical tail
departed the airplane. They did indeed lower the aft trucks. Also raised
the outboard spoilers (aft of CL and CG) , opened the bomb bay doors,
lowered the outrigger gear, and used differential thrust. They landed at a
very long runway with a long long straight in approach.
Allow me to make a couple observations for our benefit. First, none of
these techniques is available to our little RVs. The RV series is the
opposite of the B-52 in almost every respect in terms of stability. The
bomber was designed with very high priority on yaw stability to make it a
stable bombing platform.
Second. The fix on the B-52 was to reinforce the bulkhead to which the tail
was attached. I mention this to emphasize the importance of this area.
With this in mind I implore all of you to check your tail attach hardware.
Do it at every annual. Use mirrors and your hand to feel each nut and bolt
threads. When someone asks you to check their plane before first flight, do
the same. If it is not the exact model you have built, get the plans out
and know for sure what is stipulated. Based on my observations of numerous
FAA inspections and (non RV) Tech counselor inspections, you will provide a
service not usually available to the new builder.
Disclaimer. I am not an aero or structural engineer, but sometimes play one
on the RV list. My expertise on the B-52 incidents was born of the fact I
was flying an early model during all this.
Denis
Message 7
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| Subject: | Yaw stability ramblings, was F-1 accident preliminary report |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr@petroblend.com>
Just to be sure I don't forget, Do not archive
>
> I wonder if varying the engine power would cause enough yaw to be
> effective? At least in getting the aircraft back to it's base? The
> landing may be awkward, but at least you'd be home...
>
> Do not archive.
>
> -RB4
>
One thing that is getting lost in this discussion is the difference between
"stability" and "control"
If the airplane was stable, even marginally so, then alternative methods of
control, i.e. differential thrust in a multi-motor, could be employed to yaw
the airplane. However, if the airplane was dynamically unstable, i.e., yaw
oscillations increasing in amplitude, it is going to be a bad day. ( have I
got this right Kevin?)
Seaplanes have yaw stability issues because of the bow area of the floats or
the hull. That is why many seaplanes have stakes on the belly or tri-tails
when floats are added. The PBY Catalina is an extreme example with a very
small vertical stabilizer and very little fuselage aft of the C.G. The bow
is rather large, and the airplane is 105 feet wide and only 60 some feet
long so what small vertical stabilizer there is has a short arm. This all
makes for an interesting ride in turbulence.
The PBY has 1400 sq ft of wing and the ailerons are about the size of the
wings on a J-3. It has loads of adverse aileron yaw. So in moderate
turbulence the airplane tries to swing back and forth in yaw. Holding the
Rudder centered requires about the same amount of energy as a brisk walk or
slow jog. If you take your feet of the pedals the airplane will start to
yaw until the oscillations become so large that the rudder reaches full
travel and then it stops and swings back the other way. At that point the
airplane is statically unstable unstable in yaw. ( am I correct here too
Kevin?) While this is going on, your Pax are in the back talking into
plastic bags to a guy named "RALPH." Anybody want to hazard a guess what
would happen if the rudder came off???
The rudder on the PBY also serves as a vertical stabilizer. I asked a WWII
PBY pilot how they flew 24 hour missions in rough weather. It would kill
anyone. He said the autopilot, which basically locked the rudder, was a "no
go" item. The Fokker Tri-plane is also another example where the rudder
serves as a vertical stabilizer. I have talked to the guys at Rhinebeck
about the Tri-Plane. They say, "It takes some getting used to."
Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
Message 8
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| Subject: | AN Hdwe. Reference Guide |
--> RV-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com
[Unable to display image]
Message 9
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Stephen J. Soule" <SSoule@pfclaw.com>
Listers,
I'm having so much fun building a Rocky Mountain uEncoder (while I wait for
my RV-8 wing kit) that I was wondering if it would be possible to build a
com radio for the airplane. Anyone ever market a kit or plans?
Stephen Soule
Huntington, Vermont
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<META NAME"Generator" CONTENT"MS Exchange Server version 5.5.2652.35">
Com radio kit
Listers,
I'm having so much fun building a Rocky Mountain uEncoder (while I wait for my
RV-8 wing kit) that I was wondering if it would be possible to build a com radio
for the airplane. Anyone ever market a kit or plans?
Stephen Soule
Huntington, Vermont
Message 10
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|
| Subject: | Re: Substituting blind rivets for AN426-3 |
--> RV-List message posted by: "lucky macy" <luckymacy@hotmail.com>
Actually, as I was reminded, anyone with formal training/built and RV could
have answered this one.
In ANY place that uses a platenut, the ONLY function of the rivets are to
keep the platenut from twisting as you thread the bolt. Gus from Van's said
I could use epoxy to hold the platenut in place if I wanted to.
So, pop rivets are fine and the only version they carry that are the
appropriate flush rivet type are CCR-264SS-3-2.
lucky
>From: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell@telus.net>
>Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com
>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Substituting blind rivets for AN426-3
>Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 19:23:16 -0800
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell@telus.net>
>
>Hi Lucky,
>
>Your question would be a prime candidate for the "call or email Van's and
>ask them" category list of advise responses.
>
>Jim in Kelowna
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "lucky macy" <luckymacy@hotmail.com>
>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RV-List: Substituting blind rivets for AN426-3
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "lucky macy" <luckymacy@hotmail.com>
> >
> > Anyone disagree with me substituting either the MK319BS or MSC-32 blind
> > rivets for the plans called for AN426AD3-4 rivets used to attach the
>root
> > wing tank Z bracket to the rear of the main spar? I just don't want to
>buck
> > in such tight quarters near the spar doubler for a plate nut.
> >
> > thanks,
> > lucky
> >
> >
>
>
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
Message 11
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Andy Karmy" <andy@karmy.com>
Ok, for those of you that flew before painting...
How much work do you put into the cowl surfaces? I followed Van's instructions
to sand it down and brush with Acetone thinned epoxy, but after 2 coats it's not
level that's for sure. Seems to me that if I'm not going to paint right now
that it's wasted effort to chase after surface perfection and pinholes etc, RIGHT???
- Andy Karmy
RV9A Seattle WA
Almost there...If I get past sanding fiberglass...
Message 12
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|
| Subject: | Re: Yaw stability ramblings, was F-1 accident preliminary report |
--> RV-List message posted by: JRWillJR@aol.com
I think the thing best done to insure stability is to attach the vertical
stab in accordance with the plans, using all the hardware installed with
proper ED and all required reinforcements. Usually, when this is done the
tail will stay on and stability is ensured. Since the aircraft in question
had missing parts and improper ED on holes per earlier comments that the tail
failed during aggresive manuvering should not be surprising. I think this
accident has no implications for any RV aircraft other than the
obvious--stick to the plans when it comes to basic structure. Do Not Archive.
JR
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Anywhere Map GPS |
--> RV-List message posted by: Paulbaird@aol.com
I love mine. The only thing I don't like about it is that you have to charge
the battery of the Ipaq at about once a week or it will dump all the anywhere
map software.
Paul
90355
flying
Message 14
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|
| Subject: | latest bargain basement updates |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Aircraft Technical Book Company" <winterland@rkymtnhi.com>
Here's an update on whats left of the bargain basement items posted a couple
days ago. These are either older editions, slightly worn items, or new
sample books we are not going to carry. Most of these are 1 of a kind, so
its first come first serve. If you want any of these, please order by
return e-mail or phone at 800 780-4115
UNDERSTANDING COMPOSITES
brand new and excellent aircraft composite working books. Normally $29.95
but I've got a few (7) with clipped covers at 1/2 price $15.00
ADVANCED COMPOSITES
High tech materials such as carbon, kevlar, borons, honeycombs, etc...
2 left of the earlier edition. Was $32.95 Now $15.00
AVIONICS BEST SHOP PRACTICES
1 left of the 2002 edition Was $19.95 Now $10.00
GLEIM FLIGHT MANUALS
Some like the Gleim books, some don't. I've got 3 as evaluation copies
Private Pilot Flight Manuevers $10.00
Private Pilot Test guide $10.00
Gleim Aviation Weather $10.00
INTRO TO AVIATION LAW
Another evaluation copy $15
AVIATION WEATHER
absolutely best aviation weather book available. This one's got a slightly
scratched up cover so I can't sell it as new Was $58 Now $30
INSTRUMENT MANUAL
Jeppesens Instrument/Commercial Manual. Standard of the industry for IFR
rating. Also with a scratched up cover Was $82 Now $40
FLIGHT LIBRARIES - CD
You won't believe how much data fits on a CD. Standard library has all
pilot relevant Advisory Circulars including 43.13, AC 65 series, plus FARs,
dictionary, test standards, instrument handbook, helicopter handbook,
etc...... Pro Library ads every AC and AD since 1941, all STCs, TERPs, Law
& interpretations, carrier regs, NTSB regs, etc... 2002 editions
Standard was $44 Now $28
Pro was $80 Now $55
AMT LOGBOOK
Made for AMTs to log their working time but equally good for logging
building time. This one's a prototype that never made it to print
$10
.....and some new stuff that not yet posted on Builder's Bookstore. We'll o
ffer them for 20% off for a few days until they are actually posted.
Private Pilot Manual - Jeppesen $72 - now $57.60
Instrument Pilot Manual - Jeppesen $82 - now $65.60
CFI Manual - Jeppesen $73 - now $58.40
Multi Engine Manual - Jeppesen $60 - $48.00
Private Fliteschool Homestudy CD $155 now $124.95
Instrument Fliteschool Homestudy CD $160 now $128.00
FAR/AIM-AMT on CD $30 now $24.00
Human Factors for Aviation $42 now $33.60
Flight Theory for Pilots $24 now $19.20
Thanks,
Andy
Builder's Bookstore
http://buildersbooks.com
800 780-4115
do not archive
Message 15
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--> RV-List message posted by: mstewart@qa.butler.com
Use any rationale you want Andy to put it off.
Its work... and a lot of it. Now or later, pick your poison.
But like Momma said, 'You will get it done!'
Mike Stewart
Glad I could help
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Karmy [mailto:andy@karmy.com]
Subject: RV-List: Cowl prep
--> RV-List message posted by: "Andy Karmy" <andy@karmy.com>
Ok, for those of you that flew before painting...
How much work do you put into the cowl surfaces? I followed Van's
instructions to sand it down and brush with Acetone thinned epoxy, but after
2 coats it's not level that's for sure. Seems to me that if I'm not going to
paint right now that it's wasted effort to chase after surface perfection
and pinholes etc, RIGHT???
- Andy Karmy
RV9A Seattle WA
Almost there...If I get past sanding fiberglass...
Message 16
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|
| Subject: | Re: Hartwell Latch |
--> RV-List message posted by: czechsix@juno.com
Rick,
I'm not sure exactly what the Hartwell Latch is (isn't that one of the rectangular
flush latches?), but I used one of the round "button" looking latches (I think
it's actually made by Camloc but it's not the twist and turn camloc commonly
used as a cowl fastener). Lots of spam cans, especially Cessna's, use them.
You just push it in to release it. Anyway I like the nice flush look and
quicker operation than the two protruding wing-nut things that Vans specifies.
I got a used one from Air Salvage of Dallas, their # is in the yeller pages
or I think their website is www.asod.com. I think I paid about $10 or $15 for
it, but it's several times that price new. When I installed it in my oil door
I had to add a couple pieces of .063 angle fluted to match the curvature of
the oil door and riveted to the door from the hinge down to the outboard end of
the door on either side of the latch. Without the stiffeners it would pucker
out from the cowl and not hold its correct shape.
I'm very happy with it and would do the same thing over again, it looks great.
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D finishing...
Time: 06:44:02 AM PST US
From: "Rick Galati" <rick07x@earthlink.net>
Subject: RV-List: Hartwell Latch
--> RV-List message posted by: "Rick Galati" <rick07x@earthlink.net>
Where can a find a couple of Hartwell Latches suitable for installation on
the oil access door? The commonly available H-2000-2 is not
suitable, I'm told the
H-4600-C model works perfectly since it has a catch setback more
suitable for this particular installation. A builder who
successfully installed these latches on his RV-6 oil access door told me he
bought them used at Arlington years ago. Anyone know of a source new
or used?
--- Rick Galati
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Substituting blind rivets for AN426-3 |
--> RV-List message posted by: Joel Haynes <joelhaynes@tds.net>
That's what I did for the top and bottom nutplates for the inboard most z bracket.
I was able to buck the rivets for the middle nutplate w/o any problem.
Joel Haynes
7a wing
Mazomanie, WI
> > Time: 05:39:33 PM PST US
> From: "lucky macy" <luckymacy@hotmail.com>
> Subject: RV-List: Substituting blind rivets for AN426-3
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "lucky macy" <luckymacy@hotmail.com>
>
> Anyone disagree with me substituting either the MK319BS or MSC-32 blind
> rivets for the plans called for AN426AD3-4 rivets used to attach the root
> wing tank Z bracket to the rear of the main spar? I just don't want to buck
> in such tight quarters near the spar doubler for a plate nut.
>
> thanks,
> lucky
>
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Substituting blind rivets for AN426-3 |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
Just a word of advice to those who haven't built their wings yet...install
these nutplates early in the process, like right when you start working on
the spars. That's when it's easiest to install them with solid rivets. At
least do it before the wing goes up in the jig (people still jig wings,
right?) and access gets limited.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D (fuselage)
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joel Haynes" <joelhaynes@tds.net>
Subject: RV-List: Re: Substituting blind rivets for AN426-3
> --> RV-List message posted by: Joel Haynes <joelhaynes@tds.net>
>
>
> That's what I did for the top and bottom nutplates for the inboard most z
bracket. I was able to buck the rivets for the middle nutplate w/o any
problem.
>
> Joel Haynes
> 7a wing
> Mazomanie, WI
>
>
> > > Time: 05:39:33 PM PST US
> > From: "lucky macy" <luckymacy@hotmail.com>
> > Subject: RV-List: Substituting blind rivets for AN426-3
> >
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "lucky macy" <luckymacy@hotmail.com>
> >
> > Anyone disagree with me substituting either the MK319BS or MSC-32 blind
> > rivets for the plans called for AN426AD3-4 rivets used to attach the
root
> > wing tank Z bracket to the rear of the main spar? I just don't want to
buck
> > in such tight quarters near the spar doubler for a plate nut.
> >
> > thanks,
> > lucky
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | RE: Dynon EFIS-D10 Progress Update?? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Gillian Torode" <gillian@dynondevelopment.com>
Thank you for your patience and your continued interest in the EFIS-D10. We
are meeting this week to decide when to start production of the first 100
production units. This will be followed shortly by a 1000 unit production
run. We will announce the date for shipping the first unit by the end of
January.
Gillian C. D'Ancicco
Business Manager
Dynon Development Inc.
19501 144th Ave NE
Suite C-500
Woodinville, WA 98072
(425)402-4404 Phone (425)984-1751 Fax
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard V. Reynolds [mailto:rvreynolds@macs.net]
Subject: Dynon EFIS-D10 Progress Update??
Gillian C. Torode
Gillian
Could you please provide an update on your progress and expected
delivery date on the D10?
Richard Reynolds
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re:Comm Radio Kit |
--> RV-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com
Back in the early 80's , Radio Systems Technology (RST) in Grass Valley
California produced a 360 nav/com kit. I built one for our first RV-4 and
used it for 7 years until I sold the plane. Jim Weir is the design guru there
< rst.com >. He is on Google Search.rec.aviation.homebuilt pretty often. I
don't know of any other kit comm radio., but Jim would know if there is one
available.
I had a lot of enjoyment building that one. 9 3X6 circuit boards with
approx. 1000 components.
Bob Olds A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor
RV-4 , N1191X , Flying Now
Charleston, Arkansas
"Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers"
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Com radio kit |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
RST used to have such a kit.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen J. Soule" <SSoule@pfclaw.com>
Subject: RV-List: Com radio kit
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Stephen J. Soule" <SSoule@pfclaw.com>
>
> Listers,
>
> I'm having so much fun building a Rocky Mountain uEncoder (while I wait
for
> my RV-8 wing kit) that I was wondering if it would be possible to build a
> com radio for the airplane. Anyone ever market a kit or plans?
>
> Stephen Soule
> Huntington, Vermont
>
> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
>
>
> <META NAME"Generator" CONTENT"MS Exchange Server version 5.5.2652.35">
> Com radio kit
>
>
> Listers,
>
>
> I'm having so much fun building a Rocky Mountain uEncoder (while I wait
for my RV-8 wing kit) that I was wondering if it would be possible to build
a com radio for the airplane. Anyone ever market a kit or plans?
>
>
> Stephen Soule
>
> Huntington, Vermont
>
>
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | RV4 front seat cushion |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Bell" <rv4bell@door.net>
RV4 pilots,
Would like to hear from RV4 owners that have the Oregon Aero RV4 Front Seat
ULTRA II Custom Cushion Set installed and flying. Please state body size.
Height and weight!
Regards,
Bruce Bell
Lubbock, Texas
RV4 # 2888
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 23
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|
| Subject: | Lycoming O-320 Starting Problems |
--> RV-List message posted by: <sgesele@yahoo.com>
I have a O-320-D1A with a Hartzell in my -6A. Both
were bought new and have 500 hours on them. Lately
the engine has been giving me problems starting and
I'm hoping that some of the engine experts here can
help point me in the right direction.
For as long as I can remember, the engine has always
been very easy to start. It would normally fire on
the second or third blade. It now takes over a minute
of combined cranking time to get it to fire.
Obviously, when it is cold it is at its worst, but it
still gives problems when it is warm and recently run.
While cranking, it will almost 'catch'. When I
release the starter, it will usually continue through
a few blades, act as if it may start, and then stop.
When it does eventually start, it will run slightly
rougher than normal for a few seconds and then run
just fine. The idle and mag checks are all normal,
The engine runs throughout its entire power range
normally.
My technique for starting has not changed and I have
500 hours in this plane. Another, very experienced
pilot, has these same problems with starting my plane.
I doubt that it is being caused by 'pilot error'. My
normal start sequence is master on, prop high, mixture
rich, crack the throttle, prime according to the
conditions, engage starter, release starter when it
starts.
The engine is carburated, the starter is the old style
prestolite 'boat anchor', Concord RG-25 battery
(replaced 4-01), electric primer through cylinders
1,2&4. So far I have replaced the primer ports,
checked the plugs and checked the engine timing. None
of this has helped. The electric primer solenoid is
working as I can see positive fuel flow during the
priming sequence. The speed at which the starter
spins the prop is also normal. This thing just
doesn't want to start.
Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
Scott Gesele
N506RV -500+ hrs
Message 24
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--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Oke <wjoke@shaw.ca>
Hi Andy;
I was dealing with my cowling (Type S for an RV-6A0 just a few months ago.
My suggestions:
1. Begin with a light over all sanding
2. Apply a coat of expoxy squeeged on with a body filler applicator, this
should be fairly thick (viscous not depth) stuff that will fill any open
weave and pinholes on the surface (they will be lots)
3. After the epoxy is cured, look for a product called a "surfacer sealer"
at a local body shop supply. This can be sprayed on but will form sort of a
thick fuzzy surface with a hard undersurface, the out stuff will sand away
nicely leaving a surprisingly smooth surface.
4. Apply a suitable primer of your choice and then go after any remaining
defects with some spot filler. Reprime as needed.
5 Paint to taste.
No real shortcuts but using the right surfacer will help a lot.
Jim Oke
RV-6A
Winnipeg, MB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Karmy" <andy@karmy.com>
Subject: RV-List: Cowl prep
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Andy Karmy" <andy@karmy.com>
>
> Ok, for those of you that flew before painting...
>
> How much work do you put into the cowl surfaces? I followed Van's
instructions to sand it down and brush with Acetone thinned epoxy, but after
2 coats it's not level that's for sure. Seems to me that if I'm not going to
paint right now that it's wasted effort to chase after surface perfection
and pinholes etc, RIGHT???
>
> - Andy Karmy
> RV9A Seattle WA
> Almost there...If I get past sanding fiberglass...
>
>
Message 25
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|
| Subject: | Re: Lycoming O-320 Starting Problems |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
Did you Clean and re-gap the plugs. A visual just doesn't do it.
Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org
Always looking for articles for the Experimenter
----- Original Message -----
From: <sgesele@yahoo.com>
Subject: RV-List: Lycoming O-320 Starting Problems
> --> RV-List message posted by: <sgesele@yahoo.com>
>
> I have a O-320-D1A with a Hartzell in my -6A. Both
> were bought new and have 500 hours on them. Lately
> the engine has been giving me problems starting and
> I'm hoping that some of the engine experts here can
> help point me in the right direction.
>
> For as long as I can remember, the engine has always
> been very easy to start. It would normally fire on
> the second or third blade. It now takes over a minute
> of combined cranking time to get it to fire.
> Obviously, when it is cold it is at its worst, but it
> still gives problems when it is warm and recently run.
> While cranking, it will almost 'catch'. When I
> release the starter, it will usually continue through
> a few blades, act as if it may start, and then stop.
> When it does eventually start, it will run slightly
> rougher than normal for a few seconds and then run
> just fine. The idle and mag checks are all normal,
> The engine runs throughout its entire power range
> normally.
>
> My technique for starting has not changed and I have
> 500 hours in this plane. Another, very experienced
> pilot, has these same problems with starting my plane.
> I doubt that it is being caused by 'pilot error'. My
> normal start sequence is master on, prop high, mixture
> rich, crack the throttle, prime according to the
> conditions, engage starter, release starter when it
> starts.
>
> The engine is carburated, the starter is the old style
> prestolite 'boat anchor', Concord RG-25 battery
> (replaced 4-01), electric primer through cylinders
> 1,2&4. So far I have replaced the primer ports,
> checked the plugs and checked the engine timing. None
> of this has helped. The electric primer solenoid is
> working as I can see positive fuel flow during the
> priming sequence. The speed at which the starter
> spins the prop is also normal. This thing just
> doesn't want to start.
>
> Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Scott Gesele
> N506RV -500+ hrs
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 26
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|
| Subject: | Re: Lycoming O-320 Starting Problems |
--> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes <kempthornes@earthlink.net>
Engines need three things to start - as you know:
Fuel - air mixture
Sparks - in the right place at the right time
Compression
I'd first pull a plug after 30 seconds of trying to start. Is there fuel?
Put the plug in the ignition cable and crank. Is there usual strength spark?
Stick a compression gauge in the hole and crank. Is there pressure
enough? (Pulling the prop thru tells something too.)
If yes to all, check timing. Check quality of fuel.
Since the engine is so new and fuel flow seems to exist and since it runs
well once started, one would expect spark.
Take this with this disclaimer: I have overhauled several hundred
non-aircraft engines but have little aircraft engine experience.
K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne
RV6-a N7HK flying!
PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA)
Message 27
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| Subject: | Lycoming O-320 Starting Problems |
--> RV-List message posted by: "George McNutt" <gmcnutt@intergate.ca>
-
--> RV-List message posted by: <sgesele@yahoo.com>
I have a O-320-D1A with a Hartzell in my -6A. Both
were bought new and have 500 hours on them. Lately
the engine has been giving me problems starting and
I'm hoping that some of the engine experts here can
help point me in the right direction.
snip --------
normal start sequence is master on, prop high, mixture
rich, crack the throttle, prime according to the
conditions, engage starter, release starter when it
starts.
The electric primer solenoid is
working as I can see positive fuel flow during the
priming sequence. The speed at which the starter
spins the prop is also normal. This thing just
doesn't want to start.
Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
Scott Gesele
N506RV -500+ hrs
Hi Scott
When I first read your post I thought it sounded like the engine is rich or
over primed.
Have someone watch for black smoke from exhaust during start attempt.
Any chance that the primer solenoid is hanging up and not closing completely
until there is some engine/airframe vibration.
George McNutt
Langley B.C.
Message 28
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|
"RV-list" <rv-list@matronics.com>
| Subject: | Re: Soldering torch on sale at Radio Shack thru 2 Feb - cancel |
incorrect info
--> RV-List message posted by: "David Carter" <dcarter@datarecall.net>
Hey, RV-list & Aeroelectric List - the "torch" I told you all about is a
"butane heated tip IRON" - not a torch. Found one at another Radio Shack
last night and realized I "saw what I wanted to see" at the first RS where
it was out of stock and all I had to go by was the tiny letters on the
pegboard label - probably didn't have my reading glasses on. Anyway, its
not a torch. Sorry.
So, where's a good place to buy a torch for working away from where there
is electricity for solder guns?
David Carter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Jory" <rickjory@msn.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Soldering torch on sale at Radio Shack thru 2 Feb
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Rick Jory" <rickjory@msn.com>
>
> Why not splice via the splices that you crimp? Fast, easy, secure. I'm
not
> one to "teach", but I've read solder and planes don't go together. Most
of
> the wiring we use is stranded, not solid core . . . so that it can
vibrate,
> flex, etc. without breaking. Solder adds, in effect, a "solid core"
> section. Anyway, that's my two cents.
> Rick Jory RV8A
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David Carter <dcarter@datarecall.net>
> To: RV-list <rv-list@matronics.com>; aeroelectric-list
> <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RV-List: Soldering torch on sale at Radio Shack thru 2 Feb
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "David Carter" <dcarter@datarecall.net>
> >
> > On my RV-6 I'm splicing in extra lengths of wire (14 or 16 awg -
> definitely bigger than 20 or 22) on my Whelen tail/strobe lights so have
> enough wire for service loop, etc. for maintenance/light fixture removal,
> etc. First tried to solder with a regular soldering gun but got cold
> solder joints due to wires wiggling with gun tip physically pressing on
the
> wires.
> >
> > So, am going to buy a soldering torch - so don't have to physically
touch
> the wires except with the thin solder strand. Had previously figured the
> torch was only for real pros like Bob Nuckolls - now I can see that an
> amateur like me needs one, too.
> >
> > Went to Radio Shack and found they are on sale for $5 off the normal
> $19.99 price thru 2 Feb or some such date. Anyone needs one, enjoy the
> price.
> >
> > David Carter
> > RV-6 - about to close the aft fuselage with top aft skins
> >
> >
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Lycoming O-320 Starting Problems |
--> RV-List message posted by: Larry Pardue <n5lp@carlsbad.net>
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: <sgesele@yahoo.com>
>
>I have a O-320-D1A with a Hartzell in my -6A. Both
>were bought new and have 500 hours on them. Lately
>the engine has been giving me problems starting and
>I'm hoping that some of the engine experts here can
>help point me in the right direction.
>
It is possible for the impulse coupler to get intermittent. This can be
checked by turning the engine over by hand (after taking the proper
precautions). It should click strongly on every compression stroke.
A friend recently had starting problems that were just as you describe
your's. It was a worn impulse coupler. Sometimes it would click and
sometimes it wouldn't.
Larry Pardue
Carlsbad, NM
RV-6 N441LP Flying
http://www.carlsbadnm.com/n5lp/index.htm
Message 30
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| Subject: | Lycoming O-320 Starting Problems |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@usjet.net>
What about the impulse coupling in one mag? Maybe it is stuck or
busted.
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
RV6-A N66AP 247 hours
www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Lycoming O-320 Starting Problems |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ross Scroggs" <rscroggs@attbi.com>
Scott,
Lycomings normally use the left magneto for starting, unless you have
electronic ignition.
The left mag has an impulse coupling which delays the firing of the plugs
until somewhere
around top dead center. If it was me, I'd check the left mag points for the
proper gap and
that the points are set to open at the proper location. This can happen due
to normal wear
and may not show up on a mag check due to both mags having the same amount
of time
and wear on them. At start up, this could make the engine harder to start.
Just a suggestion,
Ross Scroggs, A&P
Conyers, Ga.
RV4 #3911 Wings
----- Original Message -----
From: <sgesele@yahoo.com>
Subject: RV-List: Lycoming O-320 Starting Problems
> --> RV-List message posted by: <sgesele@yahoo.com>
>
> I have a O-320-D1A with a Hartzell in my -6A. Both
> were bought new and have 500 hours on them. Lately
> the engine has been giving me problems starting and
> I'm hoping that some of the engine experts here can
> help point me in the right direction.
>
> For as long as I can remember, the engine has always
> been very easy to start. It would normally fire on
> the second or third blade. It now takes over a minute
> of combined cranking time to get it to fire.
> Obviously, when it is cold it is at its worst, but it
> still gives problems when it is warm and recently run.
> While cranking, it will almost 'catch'. When I
> release the starter, it will usually continue through
> a few blades, act as if it may start, and then stop.
> When it does eventually start, it will run slightly
> rougher than normal for a few seconds and then run
> just fine. The idle and mag checks are all normal,
> The engine runs throughout its entire power range
> normally.
>
> My technique for starting has not changed and I have
> 500 hours in this plane. Another, very experienced
> pilot, has these same problems with starting my plane.
> I doubt that it is being caused by 'pilot error'. My
> normal start sequence is master on, prop high, mixture
> rich, crack the throttle, prime according to the
> conditions, engage starter, release starter when it
> starts.
>
> The engine is carburated, the starter is the old style
> prestolite 'boat anchor', Concord RG-25 battery
> (replaced 4-01), electric primer through cylinders
> 1,2&4. So far I have replaced the primer ports,
> checked the plugs and checked the engine timing. None
> of this has helped. The electric primer solenoid is
> working as I can see positive fuel flow during the
> priming sequence. The speed at which the starter
> spins the prop is also normal. This thing just
> doesn't want to start.
>
> Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Scott Gesele
> N506RV -500+ hrs
>
>
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Lycoming O-320 Starting Problems |
--> RV-List message posted by: Gary Zilik <zilik@direcpc.com>
My first thought was your primer ports may be plugged. But you said you
changed them out with new. I would at least visually check that fuel is
indeed going through the priming system. You might try pumping the
throttle once or twice while cranking to see if that helps.
Clean and gap all the plugs. You did not say if you did this.
If you have regular slick mags check to make sure the impulse coupling
is doing its job. This can be done by pulling through with the prop and
listening for clicks at each revolution.. BE CAREFULL HERE!!!
Check mag timing. Check point gaps
If you have a Lasar system, I think you may have a electronic problem.
You did not say what kind of mags your running.
Compression test. Do we have good compression when cold? Low compression
can make for hard starts.
Air, Fuel and Spark are necessary. One of them is missing and I bet it
aint the air.
Gary
sgesele@yahoo.com wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: <sgesele@yahoo.com>
>
>I have a O-320-D1A with a Hartzell in my -6A. Both
>were bought new and have 500 hours on them. Lately
>the engine has been giving me problems starting and
>I'm hoping that some of the engine experts here can
>help point me in the right direction.
>
>For as long as I can remember, the engine has always
>been very easy to start. It would normally fire on
>the second or third blade. It now takes over a minute
>of combined cranking time to get it to fire.
>Obviously, when it is cold it is at its worst, but it
>still gives problems when it is warm and recently run.
> While cranking, it will almost 'catch'. When I
>release the starter, it will usually continue through
>a few blades, act as if it may start, and then stop.
>When it does eventually start, it will run slightly
>rougher than normal for a few seconds and then run
>just fine. The idle and mag checks are all normal,
>The engine runs throughout its entire power range
>normally.
>
>My technique for starting has not changed and I have
>500 hours in this plane. Another, very experienced
>pilot, has these same problems with starting my plane.
> I doubt that it is being caused by 'pilot error'. My
>normal start sequence is master on, prop high, mixture
>rich, crack the throttle, prime according to the
>conditions, engage starter, release starter when it
>starts.
>
>The engine is carburated, the starter is the old style
>prestolite 'boat anchor', Concord RG-25 battery
>(replaced 4-01), electric primer through cylinders
>1,2&4. So far I have replaced the primer ports,
>checked the plugs and checked the engine timing. None
>of this has helped. The electric primer solenoid is
>working as I can see positive fuel flow during the
>priming sequence. The speed at which the starter
>spins the prop is also normal. This thing just
>doesn't want to start.
>
>Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>Scott Gesele
>N506RV -500+ hrs
>
>
>
>
Message 33
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| Subject: | Lycoming O-320 Starting Problems |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Michel" <rv8ter@rogers.com>
If the impulse acts up usually your starts would have kick backs. If
fuel is OK the other item I would recommend is check for any intake
leaks.
Michel
Do not archive
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Lycoming O-320 Starting Problems |
--> RV-List message posted by: Dave Bristol <bj034@lafn.org>
Scott,
Sounds like an impulse coupler to me. I think that Slick recommends an
inspection at 500 hours, so with that in mind I'd pull the mags and give
them a good look-even though it's running ok.
Dave RV6, So Cal, EAA Tech Counselor
sgesele@yahoo.com wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: <sgesele@yahoo.com>
>
> I have a O-320-D1A with a Hartzell in my -6A. Both
> were bought new and have 500 hours on them. Lately
> the engine has been giving me problems starting and
> I'm hoping that some of the engine experts here can
> help point me in the right direction.
Message 35
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|
| Subject: | Re: Yaw stability ramblings, was F-1 accident preliminary |
report
--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
JRWillJR@aol.com wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: JRWillJR@aol.com
>
> I think the thing best done to insure stability is to attach the vertical
> stab in accordance with the plans, using all the hardware installed with
> proper ED and all required reinforcements. Usually, when this is done the
> tail will stay on and stability is ensured. Since the aircraft in question
> had missing parts and improper ED on holes per earlier comments that the tail
> failed during aggresive manuvering should not be surprising. I think this
> accident has no implications for any RV aircraft other than the
> obvious--stick to the plans when it comes to basic structure. Do Not Archive.
> JR
>
>
Very good observation JR. I also believe that if the vertical stab was ripped
off there is also good reason to believe that there could have been damage to the
elevators in some way so it could not be used for pitch control.
Jerry
do not archive
Message 36
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| Subject: | Lycoming O-320 Starting Problems |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@usjet.net>
The impulse coupling is to increase the spark, not just to retard it,
for starting. My money (0.02$) is on the impulse coupling.
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
RV6-A N66AP 247 hours
www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michel
> Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 6:46 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV-List: Lycoming O-320 Starting Problems
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Michel" <rv8ter@rogers.com>
>
>
> If the impulse acts up usually your starts would have kick
> backs. If fuel is OK the other item I would recommend is
> check for any intake leaks.
>
> Michel
>
> Do not archive
>
>
> ==========
> Matronics Forums.
> ==========
> List members.
> ==========
> ==========
>
>
>
>
>
Message 37
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|
| Subject: | Pre-drilled hole misalignment |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Geoff Evans" <gwevans@attbi.com>
One of the pre-drilled holes in one of my aileron gap fairings doesn't line up
with the hole in the rear spar. It's about 2/3 diameter out of whack.
I'd like to solve the problem without drilling more holes in the fairing/spar.
Can I use the misaligned hole in the fairing as a drill guide (thereby elongating
the hole in the spar and making it unsuitable to back a rivet) and put an
extra small piece of aluminum on the other side of the spar for the shop head
of the rivet to set against? Or is this a bad thing to do?
The other option is to drill a hole next to the misaligned one and put a rivet
in the good hole. Of course, this leaves a misaligned empty hole visible.
Thanks.
-Geoff Evans
RV-8 QB wings
Message 38
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|
| Subject: | Anybody doing Transition Training In Texas or Florida in a 6A? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Dan DeNeal <rv6apilot@yahoo.com>
My rv6a is ready to fly. I still need a DAR for
inspection but after 8 1/2 years of building it's time
to change hats. I will be in Florida the last part of
this month or will be willing to fly to Texas. The
weather around Illinois this time of year is pretty
iffy, so would like to find a warmer place on earth. I
would prefer a 6A to transition in.
Dan DeNeal
RV6A - N256GD
Hoopeston, Illinois
(217) 283-6157
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Pre-drilled hole misalignment |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright" <kyle.boatright@adelphia.net>
Based on general principle, I would recommend against enlarging a hole in
the spar. Drill another hole at a reasonable edge distance. Nobody (other
than you) will ever notice, and it is a better solution than creating a
larger hole. You can always use proseal to fill the unused hole, then paint
it when that time comes.
KB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoff Evans" <gwevans@attbi.com>
Subject: RV-List: Pre-drilled hole misalignment
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Geoff Evans" <gwevans@attbi.com>
>
> One of the pre-drilled holes in one of my aileron gap fairings doesn't
line up with the hole in the rear spar. It's about 2/3 diameter out of
whack.
>
> I'd like to solve the problem without drilling more holes in the
fairing/spar. Can I use the misaligned hole in the fairing as a drill guide
(thereby elongating the hole in the spar and making it unsuitable to back a
rivet) and put an extra small piece of aluminum on the other side of the
spar for the shop head of the rivet to set against? Or is this a bad thing
to do?
>
> The other option is to drill a hole next to the misaligned one and put a
rivet in the good hole. Of course, this leaves a misaligned empty hole
visible.
>
> Thanks.
> -Geoff Evans
> RV-8 QB wings
>
>
Message 40
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|
| Subject: | Wiring SL40 to Flightcom 403 |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Steve J Hurlbut" <sjhdcl@kingston.net>
A few weeks ago I asked about anybody experienced with wiring a
SL40 comm to a Flightcom 403 and I got some great help. Along with the help
of
Apollo and Flightcom everything works (on the workbench anyway) so I thought
I'd publish the wiring diagram (in writing anyway) for future builders.
It was the 'mic ground' connection on the radio that was confusing me since
the intercom
gets wired to the mic ground terminal. Turns out to wire the mic ground (pin
7 on radio) to pin 1
of the intercom and everything works great!
Ref page 11 SL40 installation "SL40 Typical Audio Panel Connections"
Radio pin 1 (power) - power
Radio pin 9 (ground) - ground
Radio pin 14 (headphone) - Intercom pin 21 (Receive audio)
Radio pin 13 (audio ground) - ground
Radio pin 8 (Mic 1) - Intercom pin 17 (Transmit audio)
Radio pin 7 (Mic Ground) - Intercom pin 1 (avionics ground)
Radio pin 4 (TxKey) - Intercom pin 8 (Transmit Keyline)
All the intercom connections are then made exactly like the Flightcom 403
installtion
diagram shows on page 10 of their manual.
Steve Hurlbut
RV7A
Houston, we have established communications!!
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: Lycoming O-320 Starting Problems |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Craig Warner" <cwarner@twcny.rr.com>
Try priming the engine with the enginw cowl off. A leaking primer line could
cause this.
----- Original Message -----
From: <sgesele@yahoo.com>
Subject: RV-List: Lycoming O-320 Starting Problems
> --> RV-List message posted by: <sgesele@yahoo.com>
>
> I have a O-320-D1A with a Hartzell in my -6A. Both
> were bought new and have 500 hours on them. Lately
> the engine has been giving me problems starting and
> I'm hoping that some of the engine experts here can
> help point me in the right direction.
>
> For as long as I can remember, the engine has always
> been very easy to start. It would normally fire on
> the second or third blade. It now takes over a minute
> of combined cranking time to get it to fire.
> Obviously, when it is cold it is at its worst, but it
> still gives problems when it is warm and recently run.
> While cranking, it will almost 'catch'. When I
> release the starter, it will usually continue through
> a few blades, act as if it may start, and then stop.
> When it does eventually start, it will run slightly
> rougher than normal for a few seconds and then run
> just fine. The idle and mag checks are all normal,
> The engine runs throughout its entire power range
> normally.
>
> My technique for starting has not changed and I have
> 500 hours in this plane. Another, very experienced
> pilot, has these same problems with starting my plane.
> I doubt that it is being caused by 'pilot error'. My
> normal start sequence is master on, prop high, mixture
> rich, crack the throttle, prime according to the
> conditions, engage starter, release starter when it
> starts.
>
> The engine is carburated, the starter is the old style
> prestolite 'boat anchor', Concord RG-25 battery
> (replaced 4-01), electric primer through cylinders
> 1,2&4. So far I have replaced the primer ports,
> checked the plugs and checked the engine timing. None
> of this has helped. The electric primer solenoid is
> working as I can see positive fuel flow during the
> priming sequence. The speed at which the starter
> spins the prop is also normal. This thing just
> doesn't want to start.
>
> Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Scott Gesele
> N506RV -500+ hrs
>
>
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: Losing tails and helping your buddy |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Eustace Bowhay" <ebowhay@jetstream.net>
An excellent post Denis, the cause of the F1 crash should have been picked
up on the final inspection. However the final inspection may well be done by
someone who is not completely familiar with the construction of the
particular aircraft he or she is inspecting and is more concerned to see
that the builder has followed good aircraft construction practices.
It is hard to imagine someone deviating from the drawings especially if it
is a structural item. One of the best ways to prevent an accident like this
from happening is to have one or more builders of the same type aircraft
take a look during and before the final inspection.
Eustace Bowhay Blind Bay, B.C.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Denis Walsh" <denis.walsh@attbi.com>
Subject: RV-List: Losing tails and helping your buddy
> --> RV-List message posted by: Denis Walsh <denis.walsh@attbi.com>
>
> Some excellent RV list comments on the possible consequences of losing the
> vertical stabilizer. I believe your chance of surviving an in flight
tail
> departure in and RV is near the square root of zero. Having said that, I
> have very high confidence in the sturdiness of the RV tail when it is
> attached according to the plans, and operated within design limitations.
>
> I am fairly familiar with the B-52 incident in Colorado of some years ago.
> The crew was a Boeing highly qualified factory crew, who were seeking out
> turbulence in an instrumented B-52G. Their purpose was to get a handle on
> the forces involved in such low level flight. Several earlier models
> (taller tails) B-52s had lost their tails with fatal results in low level
> high speed flight conditions.
>
> In fact, the crew had carefully rehearsed what to do if the vertical tail
> departed the airplane. They did indeed lower the aft trucks. Also raised
> the outboard spoilers (aft of CL and CG) , opened the bomb bay doors,
> lowered the outrigger gear, and used differential thrust. They landed at
a
> very long runway with a long long straight in approach.
>
> Allow me to make a couple observations for our benefit. First, none of
> these techniques is available to our little RVs. The RV series is the
> opposite of the B-52 in almost every respect in terms of stability. The
> bomber was designed with very high priority on yaw stability to make it a
> stable bombing platform.
>
> Second. The fix on the B-52 was to reinforce the bulkhead to which the
tail
> was attached. I mention this to emphasize the importance of this area.
>
> With this in mind I implore all of you to check your tail attach hardware.
> Do it at every annual. Use mirrors and your hand to feel each nut and
bolt
> threads. When someone asks you to check their plane before first flight,
do
> the same. If it is not the exact model you have built, get the plans out
> and know for sure what is stipulated. Based on my observations of
numerous
> FAA inspections and (non RV) Tech counselor inspections, you will provide
a
> service not usually available to the new builder.
>
> Disclaimer. I am not an aero or structural engineer, but sometimes play
one
> on the RV list. My expertise on the B-52 incidents was born of the fact I
> was flying an early model during all this.
>
> Denis
>
>
Message 43
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Eustace Bowhay" <ebowhay@jetstream.net>
Someone mentioned the service bulletin on the hoses Van supplies and this twigged
a sensitive spot for me and re-emphasizes the need for the proper tools and
assembly of the hose ends.
One of the serious incidents in my flying revolved around the improper installation
of a hose end.
Years ago I was asked if I would go with the owner and pick up a Aero Commander
he had just purchased in Oklahoma City and fly it to Calgary. The owner had little
twin time and no Commander time, and the aircraft had just had both engines
and propellers overhauled and only had a test flight. I was flying twins on
a daily basis and had some two hundred hours in Commanders so was happy to get
a little break and help him out.
We arrived in Oklahoma City expecting to fly directly back to Calgary but it turned
out the sale was through a company in Mesa, Arizona and the salesman informed
us we would be flying with him back to Mesa and then complete the paper
work and take delivery there. Since he was in charge I asked him what the plan
was, he advised we would be flying to Mesa via Albuquerque. We didn't get out
of OK until about three hours before dark meaning it would be a night flight
from Albuquerque on to Mesa (First mistake, doing a five hour plus first flight
on a newly overhauled aircraft nearly half of it after dark).
Flying out of OK the salesman was flying I was in the right front seat and the
owner in a center seat behind me. The salesman was doing a reasonable job of flying
and the aircraft seemed to be more or less snag free. A couple of hours
into the flight I noticed that the fuel pressure on the left engine was gradually
dropping, these were fuel injected engines. Approaching Albuquerque the fuel
pressure had degraded to about half of normal and I was wondering why we weren't
starting a decent into Albuquerque. I pointed out the fuel pressure issue
and he just shrugged and mumbled something to the effect that it will be OK
and we will take care or it in Mesa.
Darkness was now approaching and I was starting to get real uncomfortable with
this guy. It was becoming obvious that we were flying with someone who lacked
a great deal in good judgment and was wondering how well he was going to be
able to handle things when the engine quit producing power. It wasn't going to
be long before I found out, About thirty minutes passed AB with the fuel pressure
still dropping the airspeed started to decay very gradually as the engine
began starving for fuel, there was still time to return to AB but it seemed
that he didn't fully realize what was going on and just kept going.
I still wasn't too concerned for our safety as the Commander does reasonably well
on one engine and we were fairly light with only three of us on board and had
already burned of nearly four hours fuel. With the airspeed gradually falling
off I asked him when he was going to feather the engine so we could maintain
altitude. Again he just shrugged and said the engine would be OK. By now we
are starting to loose altitude, The engines were non turboed and we had been flying
at a altitude that allowed full throttle operation in cruise.
I wasn't real familiar with the route we were flying and didn't know what the MEA
was but I knew that it was fairly high country until you dropped off into the
Phoenix area. We are now flying with full throttle on the right engine with
the left engine basically windmilling and gradually loosing altitude and no indication
that this guy was going to feather the left engine and get things under
control.
One thing I was sure of I wasn't going to let this guy kill us if I could help
it. I got out of my seat and asked the owner to take my place and I sat behind
the pilot. My plan was to get control of the aircraft if I could before we hit
the ground. Sitting behind the pilot away from the instrument panel lights
and looking out the side I could make out our height above the ground and realized
we still had some time. I removed the fire extinguisher from its holder
and got ready to nail this guy on the back of the head. About this time I could
see the glare of the lights from Phoenix coming up on the horizon and hoped
that we would drop over the rim and get into Falcon Field without having to nail
this guy. That's the way it finished with a straight in to Falcon Field, why
he didn't loose it on final with the left engine windmilling and everything
hanging out I will never know. The left engine quit turning as he flared.
Needless to say the atmosphere was a little chilly when we got out of the aircraft.
He offered us a ride to a motel and my comment was "if you drive the same
way you fly, no thanks will take a cab".
At the airport the next morning the maintenance people said the aircraft was ready
to go and showed us a neatly cut oval of rubber they had taken out of the
fuel line that goes between the throttle body and the distributor body on top
of the engine. The salesman didn't show up to see us off, but we got our papers
and had an uneventful flight back to Calgary.
Eustace Bowhay Blind Bay, B.C.
Do not archive
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring SL40 to Flightcom 403 |
--> RV-List message posted by: RGray67968@aol.com
In a message dated 1/10/03 7:45:32 PM Pacific Standard Time,
sjhdcl@kingston.net writes:
> All the intercom connections are then made exactly like the Flightcom 403
> installtion
> diagram shows on page 10 of their manual.
>
> Steve Hurlbut
>
Steve,
Congrats........."told ya' so" :
)
Rick Gray RV6 (Ohio) at the Buffalo Farm
do not archive
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: Lycoming O-320 Starting Problems |
--> RV-List message posted by: "H.Ivan Haecker" <baremetl@gvtc.com>
----- Original Message -----
From: <sgesele@yahoo.com>
Subject: RV-List: Lycoming O-320 Starting Problems
> --> RV-List message posted by: <sgesele@yahoo.com>
>
> I have a O-320-D1A with a Hartzell in my -6A. Both
> were bought new and have 500 hours on them. Lately
> the engine has been giving me problems starting and
> I'm hoping that some of the engine experts here can
> help point me in the right direction.
>
I am certainly not an engine expert by any means, but I have experienced the
same problem twice on my rv-4 with O-320. Both times the culprit was the
coil in the left mag. It would run fine once started but was a real bear to
get going.
Ivan Haecker
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: Round Headlamps or Taxi / landing light |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Randall Henderson" <randallh@attbi.com>
> The HID kits and upgrades are available thru DUCKWORTH and RMD.
> I do not have the URL for either of them handy.
That's DuckWORKS -- www.duckworksaviation.com.
Message 47
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel selector valve attach |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Randall Henderson" <randallh@attbi.com>
> Here we go again! Van's recommended installation of this plate works just
fine.
> It might be easier to to remove the floors with the plate mounted
otherwise, but
> it is NOT "ANOTHER VAN'S DESIGN SNAFU". Build it either way you want but
let's
> quit bashing Van when he didn't do anything wrong
No Van bashing here (jeez some people are so sensitive!) but I mounted mine
per the plans and would definitely recommend instead just hacking off the
tab that overlaps the spar. I guess it depends on how much gap you have on
the seat floor sides and maybe other factors but for me its a big PITA to
get them in and out. If I'd cut off the tab it would be much easier and
considering that the fuel selector uprights are bolted to the spar with 4
big bolts, I'd say its on there plenty strong without any overlap
attachment. I think the overlap is merely cosmetic so if the builder likes
it better with, then leave it, but its way easier maintenance-wise (for me
it would be anyway) with the tab cut off.
Randall Henderson, RV-6 N6R (~450 hrs)
Portland, OR
www.vanshomewing.org
PS I guess I was wrong before about saying "its not on the plans". Whats not
on the plans (at least anywhere I could find) is the angle of the uprights
and the fact that the uprights are intended to nest between, and be bolted
to, the floor stiffeners at the bottom, which ties the stiffeners to the
spar.
Message 48
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
FYI, there's a new Hartzell AD out that mandates the replacement of certain
aluminum propeller hub assemblies. Apparently Hartzell is covering the
parts & labor cost.
http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/regulatory/reghartzell.html
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D (fuselage)
http://www.rvproject.com
Message 49
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| Subject: | Tubing spacers or washers between elevator control horns? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
The plans call for using an AN3-10A to attach the aft elevator pushrod to
the control horns. That's way too short for my setup since my control horns
are spaced apart. An AN3-12A works fine, but there are obviously some gaps
in there that need to be filled. I'm curious what people generally feel is
most acceptable...aluminum tubing cut to fill the gaps, or washers as
required?
I haven't called Van's yet since it's about 10:45pm on Friday night...
Thanks in advance,
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D (fuselage)
http://www.rvproject.com
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