---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 01/12/03: 36 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:45 AM - Re: Tubing spacers or washers between elevator control horns? (Dana Overall) 2. 07:27 AM - Re: Re: Pre-drilled hole misalignment (Gary Zilik) 3. 08:17 AM - Re: Tubing spacers or washers between elevator control horns? (Elsa & Henry) 4. 08:41 AM - tank attach angle fit criticality (lucky macy) 5. 09:52 AM - Re: tank attach angle fit criticality (Dan Checkoway) 6. 10:59 AM - Fuel valve bracket RV8A (Al Grajek) 7. 11:34 AM - Re: tank attach angle fit criticality (LarryRobertHelming) 8. 11:54 AM - Re: tank attach angle fit criticality (Jim Oke) 9. 12:14 PM - Re: F-1 accident preliminary report (RV_8 Pilot) 10. 12:53 PM - Trim/Flaps connection + trim speed (Mark Phillips) 11. 01:48 PM - Re: F-1 accident preliminary report (Dave von Linsowe) 12. 01:49 PM - Re: Trim/Flaps connection + trim speed (Jerry Springer) 13. 02:18 PM - Re: Trim/Flaps connection + trim speed (Sam Buchanan) 14. 05:01 PM - Re: Fuel valve bracket RV8A (Charles Rowbotham) 15. 05:28 PM - O-320 leaning (Martin Hone) 16. 05:43 PM - Re: Trim/Flaps connection + trim speed (Vanremog@aol.com) 17. 05:57 PM - Return to Phase 1 test period (Randy Lervold) 18. 06:01 PM - Re: tank attach angle fit criticality (Randall Henderson) 19. 06:07 PM - RV-3s For sale? WANTED! (ULflyer86@aol.com) 20. 06:18 PM - Electric flaps drawint EF6-1 (Jeff Orear) 21. 06:31 PM - Re: Yaw stability ramblings, was F-1 accident (Kevin Horton) 22. 06:33 PM - Re: O-320 leaning (Ed Bundy) 23. 06:35 PM - Re: Cowl prep (JDaniel343@aol.com) 24. 06:53 PM - Re: RV7 to 7A conversion (Gary) 25. 06:58 PM - Re: Return to Phase 1 test period (John Huft) 26. 07:03 PM - Re: Electric flaps drawint EF6-1 (Pat Hatch) 27. 07:19 PM - Re: O-320 leaning (Vanremog@aol.com) 28. 07:27 PM - RV2 (Norman) 29. 08:11 PM - Re: Return to Phase 1 test period (Dan Checkoway) 30. 08:11 PM - Re: Return to Phase 1 test period (Dan Checkoway) 31. 08:11 PM - Re: RV2 (Cy Galley) 32. 08:33 PM - Re: RV2 (Norman) 33. 08:36 PM - Where to find RV's for sale (Norman) 34. 08:51 PM - For Sale: EI gauges & RV-8A exhaust (Matthew Gelber) 35. 10:22 PM - Re: RV2 (Jim Jewell) 36. 10:31 PM - Re: Where to find RV's for sale (Vanremog@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:45:01 AM PST US From: "Dana Overall" Subject: Re: RV-List: Tubing spacers or washers between elevator control horns? --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" I just pulled my emp out this morning and did some measuring. It looks like there is right at an inch between elevator horns. The rod end bearings I have for AN3 bolts are right at 7/16" wide leaving 9/16" remaining fill total. This leaves us about 9/32 per side of the bolt. This seems a little like no mans land...........too wide to fill with washers and an awfully narrow spacer cut to leave room for a washer on the REB side or one on each side. It would seem to me here, all you are looking for is a non binding, or flexing attachment, so as to allow the REB to do it's thing. Now food for thought............Some have said don't use just an alum spacer. I know some materials are better than others but on drawing 13A for the RV-7 it shows an alum spacer (size as required), with no washers, between the outboard aileron bracket and the face of the pressed bearing in the bracket mounted to the rear spar of the wing. My alum. spacer is 1/4". The kit only supplies alum stock spacer material, not SS for this AN3 bolt spacer. The wall thickness of the spacers is such that the outer casing of the REBs cannot touch the spacer at full rotation. What are various thoughts, or does it really matter in this application? Dana Overall Richmond, KY http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:27:48 AM PST US From: Gary Zilik Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Pre-drilled hole misalignment --> RV-List message posted by: Gary Zilik Lets see, we're talking about riveting on a .016" aileron gap faring and worrying about elongated holes and structural problems. Make the hole in the fairing match the one in the rear spar, rivet it and keep on building. It's only a faring folks. Gary Rick Galati wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Rick Galati" > > >I would suggest that your idea to use the misaligned hole as a drill >guide is sound. > >The resultant elongated hole through the spar should be worked (with >pattern file) slightly to > >break all sharp edges. Based upon a center to center rivet spacing of > > >1.8" (on my RV-6A gap fairings) I would fabricate an .032 aluminum >doubler approx. 2" long. > >Center this doubler over the bad hole on the rear spar, lay out a .098 hole >on each end > >of doubler maintaining .35-.40 e.d.. Doubler to be >installed on the forward surface of the > >rear spar using two 1097AD3 rivets with the shop heads on the >rear surface > >of the spar countersunk to maintain flushness. After doubler is >installed onto the rear spar, > >drill the subject hole full size through aileron gap fairing. >Chip chase to remove all debris, > > then install gap fairing normally with longer 470AD rivet to >accommodate increased thickness. > >Rick Galati > > >Subject: > >Pre-drilled hole >misalignment > >From: > >Geoff Evans (gwevans@attbi.com ) > >Date: > >Fri Jan 10 - 6:22 >PM >-- RV-List message posted by: "Geoff Evans" gwevans@attbi.com > >One of the pre-drilled holes in one of my aileron gap fairings doesn't line up with the hole in the rear spar. It's about 2/3 diameter out of whack. > >I'd like to solve the problem without drilling more holes in the fairing/spar. Can I use the misaligned hole in the fairing as a drill guide (thereby elongating the hole in the spar and making it unsuitable to back a rivet) and put an extra small piece of aluminum on the other side of the spar for the shop head of the rivet to set against? Or is this a bad thing to do? > >The other option is to drill a hole next to the misaligned one and put a rivet in the good hole. Of course, this leaves a misaligned empty hole visible. > >Thanks. >-Geoff Evans >RV-8 QB wings > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:17:38 AM PST US From: "Elsa & Henry" Subject: Re: RV-List: Tubing spacers or washers between elevator control horns? --> RV-List message posted by: "Elsa & Henry" Hi Dana, to fill the 9/32 gap, you could fabricate a spacer from 1/4" matl, (doesn't have to be round) and add a 10-L washer to complete the fill between the spacer and rod-end bearing Cheers!!------Henry ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:41:34 AM PST US From: "lucky macy" "rv8list rv8list" Subject: RV-List: tank attach angle fit criticality --> RV-List message posted by: "lucky macy" I need a sanity check before drilling some holes. For those who have attached the tank to the fuselage, how critical is the fit you had to do way back when you attached the tank attach angle to the leading edge of the inboard rib? The plans sort of show the angle slid all the way forward to the flanges on the rib leading edge. However, that can't be because of the skin to rib rivets that will be in the way. But one has to predrill the angle, rib, rib reinforcement plate before attaching the wing to the rib. What does one do? thanks in advance and do not archive, lucky ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:52:04 AM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: tank attach angle fit criticality --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" Pretty sure I positioned my T-405 (I think...don't hold me to that part #) so that it was as far forward as possible but still left just enough room for some rivet bucktails in there. In the end, you have quite a bit of flexibility because the steel bracket that goes on the fuselage side can be bent as required to mate up perfectly with the tank bracket. I think the plans call for a 5 degree bend (RV-7), but you can customize it to match what you've got. A single simple bend worked for me, but I assume absolute worst case, you could joggle it if you had to. But point is, don't sweat it when positioning/drilling the bracket on the tank. Just get it as forward as possible. )_( Dan RV-7 N714D (fuselage) http://www.rvproject.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "lucky macy" Subject: RV-List: tank attach angle fit criticality > --> RV-List message posted by: "lucky macy" > > I need a sanity check before drilling some holes. For those who have attached the tank to the fuselage, how critical is the fit you had to do way back when you attached the tank attach angle to the leading edge of the inboard rib? The plans sort of show the angle slid all the way forward to the flanges on the rib leading edge. However, that can't be because of the skin to rib rivets that will be in the way. But one has to predrill the angle, rib, rib reinforcement plate before attaching the wing to the rib. > > What does one do? > > thanks in advance and do not archive, > lucky > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:59:59 AM PST US From: "Al Grajek" "VansAirForce" , "RV8ListVANS" Subject: RV-List: Fuel valve bracket RV8A --> RV-List message posted by: "Al Grajek" Listers: I can not find a location measurement to locate the F883 fuel selector mount bracket. The drawing shows a measurement for the 8 but not the 8A. They are not the same. Am I missing it? Thanks for the help. Al Grajek RV8A Fuselage ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:34:31 AM PST US From: "LarryRobertHelming" Subject: Re: RV-List: tank attach angle fit criticality --> RV-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" I have my attach bracket set 2" back from the leading edge. It is important to get as right as possible IMHO. I have mounted the wings already and they fit perfectly with just what you would expect in needing to bind the fuselage attach angle. The plans are very good as drawn on this. Indiana Larry with 3XG reserved ----- Original Message ----- From: "lucky macy" Subject: RV-List: tank attach angle fit criticality > --> RV-List message posted by: "lucky macy" > > I need a sanity check before drilling some holes. For those who have attached the tank to the fuselage, how critical is the fit you had to do way back when you attached the tank attach angle to the leading edge of the inboard rib? The plans sort of show the angle slid all the way forward to the flanges on the rib leading edge. However, that can't be because of the skin to rib rivets that will be in the way. But one has to predrill the angle, rib, rib reinforcement plate before attaching the wing to the rib. > > What does one do? > > thanks in advance and do not archive, > lucky > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:54:00 AM PST US From: Jim Oke Subject: Re: RV-List: tank attach angle fit criticality --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Oke You don't mention which brand of RV this will apply to (although since you are posting to the RV-8 list too perhaps that's a hint). In a -6, the fuselage tank bracket ties into the lower fuselage longerons with an added bit of 3/4 x 3/4 angle to support one of the bolts. There is some fore and aft flexibility in where these bolt holes are drilled in the longerons; perhaps +/- 1/2 in or so from the "ideal position". When building the fuselage it is probably a good idea to leave the rivet holes for about a 3 inch range in this area undrilled until the tank bracket is located to avoid awkward rivet-bolt hole interference problems. (Once the tank bracket is in place then go back and add rivets in the intervening spaces). My suggestion would be to move the bracket aft on the tank root rib to leave extra room when doing the tank rib-to-skin rivets in this area then adjust the fuselage bracket position as needed to make up the difference. Check the fuselage drawings (if you have access) to see how much room you have in this area. Ease of manufacture should probably be the main consideration in this area to help make sure you have a well sealed fuel tank at the end of the day. Jim Oke RV-6A Wpg.,., MB ----- Original Message ----- From: "lucky macy" Subject: RV-List: tank attach angle fit criticality > --> RV-List message posted by: "lucky macy" > > I need a sanity check before drilling some holes. For those who have attached the tank to the fuselage, how critical is the fit you had to do way back when you attached the tank attach angle to the leading edge of the inboard rib? The plans sort of show the angle slid all the way forward to the flanges on the rib leading edge. However, that can't be because of the skin to rib rivets that will be in the way. But one has to predrill the angle, rib, rib reinforcement plate before attaching the wing to the rib. > > What does one do? > > thanks in advance and do not archive, > lucky > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:14:30 PM PST US From: "RV_8 Pilot" Subject: RE: RV-List: F-1 accident preliminary report --> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" Mike - Need another 1/4 scale P-51? Seriously, I have a framed out Nosen model that's been collecting dust in my shop for the last couple of years and would like to sell it. Bryan Jones -8 Pearland, Texas do not archive --> RV-List message posted by: mstewart@qa.butler.com > >The description below by Gordon is a very good explanation. > >I was flying a 1/4 scale p-51(yes it was a monster) r/c doing inverted low >passes over pavement, when I took the rudder and vert fin off the plane. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:53:11 PM PST US From: Mark Phillips Subject: RV-List: Trim/Flaps connection + trim speed --> RV-List message posted by: Mark Phillips For you side-by-side drivers: 1. For 6/6A's is the use of trim ALWAYS necessary when flaps are raised or lowered (in flight, of course ), and is if so, is there a relatively direct relationship between them? In other words, does it make any sense to have the trim adjust whenever the flaps are operated, providing the trim speed were set appropriately? Would varying gross weights and different CG conditions alter this speed significantly? A second set of contacts on the flap switch or relay could accomplish this if it would not present any unsafe conditions and could reduce wordload by somewhat "automating" trim adjustment. There would still be separate trim adjust switches for normal use, or for fine-tuning after flap adjustment. 2. After seeing a lot of discussion regarding dual-speed or adjustable trim speed for different phases of flight and associated means of dealing with this, would it not be simpler to just add a properly-sized resistor in series with the motor to set a reasonable compromise voltage/speed? Being a very low duty cycle circuit, PWM and wide adjustability may be nice, but seem like overkill. If it is really necessary or desirable to have two speeds, might the following work? A simple SPST switch is installed in series with the trim motor with a resistor across its contacts for low speed operation. Closing the switch, shorting around the resistor would allow normal or "high" speed. Obviously not-ready-for-prime-time-wiring at The PossumWorks in TN Mark - do not archive - ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:48:12 PM PST US From: "Dave von Linsowe" Subject: Re: RV-List: F-1 accident preliminary report --> RV-List message posted by: "Dave von Linsowe" Or how about a TOC airplane? I've got a 44% G202 and a couple of 42% vonExtra 260's. I need to buy more stuff for my RV :-) Dave von Linsowe RV-6 > > Mike - > > Need another 1/4 scale P-51? Seriously, I have a framed out Nosen model > that's been collecting dust in my shop for the last couple of years and > would like to sell it. > > Bryan Jones -8 > Pearland, Texas > do not archive > > > --> RV-List message posted by: mstewart@qa.butler.com > > > >The description below by Gordon is a very good explanation. > > > >I was flying a 1/4 scale p-51(yes it was a monster) r/c doing inverted low > >passes over pavement, when I took the rudder and vert fin off the plane. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:49:53 PM PST US From: Jerry Springer Subject: Re: RV-List: Trim/Flaps connection + trim speed --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer Mark Phillips wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: Mark Phillips > > For you side-by-side drivers: > > 1. For 6/6A's is the use of trim ALWAYS necessary when flaps are raised > or lowered (in flight, of course ), and is if so, is there a > relatively direct relationship between them? In other words, does it > make any sense to have the trim adjust whenever the flaps are operated, > providing the trim speed were set appropriately? Would varying gross > weights and different CG conditions alter this speed significantly? A > second set of contacts on the flap switch or relay could accomplish this > if it would not present any unsafe conditions and could reduce wordload > by somewhat "automating" trim adjustment. There would still be separate > trim adjust switches for normal use, or for fine-tuning after flap > adjustment. > > 2. After seeing a lot of discussion regarding dual-speed or adjustable > trim speed for different phases of flight and associated means of > dealing with this, would it not be simpler to just add a properly-sized > resistor in series with the motor to set a reasonable compromise > voltage/speed? Being a very low duty cycle circuit, PWM and wide > adjustability may be nice, but seem like overkill. If it is really > necessary or desirable to have two speeds, might the following work? A > simple SPST switch is installed in series with the trim motor with a > resistor across its contacts for low speed operation. Closing the > switch, shorting around the resistor would allow normal or "high" speed. > > Obviously not-ready-for-prime-time-wiring at The PossumWorks in TN > Mark - do not archive - > > >====================================================================== > These being Experimental aircraft you can and should set them up any way you would like and be comfortable flying. In my opinion you do not need a dual trim speed or any kind of automatic trim. I do not find the trim speed to be a problem or trimming a little as speed/flap position dictates. My trim switch is on the control stick grip and only needs to be bumped with my thumb as needed, pretty easy. I feel the same way about flap position indicators, the easiest way to tell where the flaps are is to glance at them with your eyeballs. One of the neat things about experimental aircraft though is you can build it as you like. Jerry do not archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:18:58 PM PST US From: Sam Buchanan Subject: Re: RV-List: Trim/Flaps connection + trim speed --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan Mark Phillips wrote: > > --> RV-List message posted by: Mark Phillips >snip< > 2. After seeing a lot of discussion regarding dual-speed or adjustable > trim speed for different phases of flight and associated means of > dealing with this, would it not be simpler to just add a properly-sized > resistor in series with the motor to set a reasonable compromise > voltage/speed? Simplest (and most reliable) thing is to use manual elevator trim. Works great, too! ;-) Sam Buchanan (RV-6) ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:01:41 PM PST US From: "Charles Rowbotham" Subject: Re: RV-List: Fuel valve bracket RV8A --> RV-List message posted by: "Charles Rowbotham" Al, We mounted our Andair fuel selector valve on the Left side floor panel. This is the pael just ahead of the Left main ger weldment. We also mounted our fuel gagues (Van's) just forward of the valve on the angled surface of the same panel. Good Building, Chuck & Dave Rowbotham RV-8A (160 hrs) >From: "Al Grajek" >Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com >To: "RV List" , "VansAirForce" >, "RV8ListVANS" >Subject: RV-List: Fuel valve bracket RV8A >Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 14:01:15 -0800 > >--> RV-List message posted by: "Al Grajek" > >Listers: >I can not find a location measurement to locate the F883 fuel selector >mount bracket. The drawing shows a measurement for the 8 but not the 8A. >They are not the same. Am I missing it? Thanks for the help. >Al Grajek >RV8A >Fuselage > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:28:14 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: O-320 leaning From: "Martin Hone" --> RV-List message posted by: "Martin Hone" Hi Listers, I have checked the archives and a little bit more confused. I need to know which cylinder on an O-320 is considered to be the leanest-running in cruise, so that I can rig it for a EGT probe. All cylinders are getting CHT probes as I have made a closed plenum cooling system. Can anyone offer advice based on their experience ? If it makes any difference, I have a D1A fitted with Vetterman SS exhaust. Thanks in anticipation Martin in Oz ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:43:42 PM PST US From: Vanremog@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Trim/Flaps connection + trim speed --> RV-List message posted by: Vanremog@aol.com In a message dated 1/12/2003 12:54:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, ripsteel@edge.net writes: > For you side-by-side drivers: > > 1. For 6/6A's is the use of trim ALWAYS necessary when flaps are raised > or lowered (in flight, of course ), and is if so, is there a > relatively direct relationship between them? In other words, does it > make any sense to have the trim adjust whenever the flaps are operated, > providing the trim speed were set appropriately? Would varying gross > weights and different CG conditions alter this speed significantly? A > second set of contacts on the flap switch or relay could accomplish this > if it would not present any unsafe conditions and could reduce workload > by somewhat "automating" trim adjustment. There would still be separate > trim adjust switches for normal use, or for fine-tuning after flap > adjustment. > > 2. After seeing a lot of discussion regarding dual-speed or adjustable > trim speed for different phases of flight and associated means of > dealing with this, would it not be simpler to just add a properly sized > resistor in series with the motor to set a reasonable compromise > voltage/speed? Being a very low duty cycle circuit, PWM and wide > adjustability may be nice, but seem like overkill. If it is really > necessary or desirable to have two speeds, might the following work? A > simple SPST switch is installed in series with the trim motor with a > resistor across its contacts for low speed operation. Closing the > switch, shorting around the resistor would allow normal or "high" speed. Mark- RVs have such light control forces that the airspeed vs servo speed vs flap extension trimming issues are just nonstarters IMO. Yes, deploying flaps will require some slight nose up trim and stowing them will require some slight nose down trim. Trim settings will also be different depending on changes to your weight and balance, but in all cases, it takes all of one to two seconds to get it all done when transitioning from takeoff to flying to landing. My trim tab trailing edge only needs to move 0.500" total to accomplish its job. If it were any easier, the pilot would be superfluous. ; ) I have a Matronics PWM servo governor adjusted to about half span (I've never felt the need to change the setting), which is a nice speed for all conditions. -GV (RV-6A N1GV 586hrs) ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:57:31 PM PST US From: "Randy Lervold" Subject: RV-List: Return to Phase 1 test period --> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Lervold" I'm in the process of installing a new prop (Whirl Wind) which by anyone's definition would constitute a "major change". I understand that I need to put the plane back into a Phase 1 test period for 5 hours, then sign it back out if all is well. Two questions: 1) What language have those before me used in the logbook for this? 2) Another local builder believes he heard that each flight must be logged in the airfram log during this test period. Doesn't sound right to me, any truth to it? Thanks for any advice here, Randy Lervold RV-8, 287.4 hrs www.rv-8.com Home Wing VAF ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:01:55 PM PST US From: "Randall Henderson" Subject: Re: RV-List: tank attach angle fit criticality --> RV-List message posted by: "Randall Henderson" My experience is with the -6 so I don't know what differences there might be with the -8. But the RV-6 sounds similar, in that the angle is right up in the leading edge. So assuming no significant differences between the -6 and the -8, then I don't think its critical that it be pushed up all the way. The fuselage mating parts are drilled in place with the wing on, so that'll be adjusted to wherever it needs to be to mate up with the tank angle. In my -6 I did push it up close to the rib but not quite all the way, and I still ended up having to use some cherry rivets because I couldn't get a bucking bar in between the rib and the angle (I know some people think pop rivets are bad form but really who cares -- the thing is covered by a fairing anyway.) Probably better is to just rivet the skin to the rib first, then drill and rivet the bracket. It probably isn't quite as easy to do the bracket after the skin is riveted on, but certainly doable and probably easier than trying to buck rivets with that angle in place. Randall Henderson, RV-6 N6R (~450 hrs) Portland, OR www.vanshomewing.org ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:07:33 PM PST US From: ULflyer86@aol.com Subject: RV-List: RV-3s For sale? WANTED! --> RV-List message posted by: ULflyer86@aol.com Hi there, I am looking for an RV-3 Flying aircraft or close to it is preferable. Please let me know if any of you know where one is! Thanks for your time. Tailwinds, Eric Farewell Base Leg Aviation, www.baselegaviation.com Aero Connections Magazine www.aeroconnections.com (863) 605-2836 Lake Wales, Florida ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:18:45 PM PST US From: "Jeff Orear" Subject: RV-List: Electric flaps drawint EF6-1 --> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Orear" List: Still working on my electric flaps.....There is a reference at the top of the supplemental instruction page for the electric flaps to a Drawing EF6-1. I can't find this drawing anywhere, nor do I see any entry of it in inventory lists. Where is it???! Thing that I want to know is how far from the top edge of EF601 I should put my flap motor. Is this distance critical? Also, is the base of the motor spaced off of the web of EF601 so that it can pivot as the flap weldment rotates? I can visualize pretty much everything else. Thanks Regards, Jeff Orear RV6A fuselage...starting to run out of parts...for the time being! Peshtigo, WI ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:50 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: Yaw stability ramblings, was F-1 accident preliminary report --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton I've been on the road for several days, so I'm just getting back into a huge pile of e-mail. >--> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" > >Just to be sure I don't forget, Do not archive >> >> I wonder if varying the engine power would cause enough yaw to be >> effective? At least in getting the aircraft back to it's base? The >> landing may be awkward, but at least you'd be home... >> >> Do not archive. >> >> -RB4 >> > >One thing that is getting lost in this discussion is the difference between >"stability" and "control" > >If the airplane was stable, even marginally so, then alternative methods of >control, i.e. differential thrust in a multi-motor, could be employed to yaw >the airplane. However, if the airplane was dynamically unstable, i.e., yaw >oscillations increasing in amplitude, it is going to be a bad day. ( have I >got this right Kevin?) Yes, you are quite right that stability and control are two very different things, and both are important. Your comments on dynamic stability are right on. But, stability also has a couple of important facets - static stability and dynamic stability are two different beasts. Static stability refers to the tendency of the object (an aircraft in this case) to return to its previous condition if it is disturbed. So if an aircraft has positive directional stability, and the nose is moved sideways for some reason, the nose will point back into wind all by itself. Usually it will overshoot the nominal condition a bit, and then come back at the original condition from the other side in a series of oscillations. It has positive dynamic stability if these osciallaitons tend to damp out by themselves. If the oscillations tend to get bigger, then it has negative dynamic stability. However, if the aircraft had negative static stability, then there are no oscillations at all, as it never attempts to return back toward the original condition. Instead, it diverges away from the original condition. > >Seaplanes have yaw stability issues because of the bow area of the floats or >the hull. That is why many seaplanes have stakes on the belly or tri-tails >when floats are added. The PBY Catalina is an extreme example with a very >small vertical stabilizer and very little fuselage aft of the C.G. The bow >is rather large, and the airplane is 105 feet wide and only 60 some feet >long so what small vertical stabilizer there is has a short arm. This all >makes for an interesting ride in turbulence. > >The PBY has 1400 sq ft of wing and the ailerons are about the size of the >wings on a J-3. It has loads of adverse aileron yaw. So in moderate >turbulence the airplane tries to swing back and forth in yaw. Holding the >Rudder centered requires about the same amount of energy as a brisk walk or >slow jog. If you take your feet of the pedals the airplane will start to >yaw until the oscillations become so large that the rudder reaches full >travel and then it stops and swings back the other way. At that point the >airplane is statically unstable unstable in yaw. ( am I correct here too >Kevin?) While this is going on, your Pax are in the back talking into >plastic bags to a guy named "RALPH." Anybody want to hazard a guess what >would happen if the rudder came off??? If it was statically unstable in yaw, the yaw would continue to increase, and the nose wouldn't tend to come back into wind. So, it sounds like it has positive static stability, but negative dynamic stability if you take your feet off the pedals. If you keep your feet on the pedals, and keep the rudder from moving, that probably improves things a bit, as effectively forces the rudder to act like an extension of the VS. If your feet are off the pedals, the rudder tends to float in the wrong direction as the aircraft yaws (i.e. it goes right when the aircraft's nose moves to the right) which tends to make the aircraft act like it has a smaller VS than it really does. > >The rudder on the PBY also serves as a vertical stabilizer. I asked a WWII >PBY pilot how they flew 24 hour missions in rough weather. It would kill >anyone. He said the autopilot, which basically locked the rudder, was a "no >go" item. The Fokker Tri-plane is also another example where the rudder >serves as a vertical stabilizer. I have talked to the guys at Rhinebeck >about the Tri-Plane. They say, "It takes some getting used to." > >Tailwinds, > >Doug Rozendaal -- Kevin Horton RV-8 (baffles, induction air, oil cooler) Ottawa, Canada http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/ ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 06:33:39 PM PST US From: "Ed Bundy" Subject: Re: RV-List: O-320 leaning --> RV-List message posted by: "Ed Bundy" I have an 0320-d1a and with my 4 cylinder EGT setup, #3 almost always peaks first in cruise. Sometimes on hot days #1 will peak first, but very rarely, and only slightly before #3. #4 is always the last to peak. Your mileage may vary, but I know that most 0320's tend to have #3 running the leanest. Ed Bundy RV6a 500+ hours > I need to know which cylinder on an O-320 is considered to be the leanest-running in cruise, so that I can rig it for a EGT probe. > All cylinders are getting CHT probes as I have made a closed plenum cooling system. > Can anyone offer advice based on their experience ? If it makes any difference, I have a D1A fitted with Vetterman SS exhaust. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 06:35:14 PM PST US From: JDaniel343@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Cowl prep --> RV-List message posted by: JDaniel343@aol.com You might try Smooth Prime. I used a roller to apply to my cowling and it worked great at filling the pin holes. Put it on thick and then sand it all off. I tried spraying it on but the did not have good results as the air pressure tended to blow the material out of the pin holes. There will still be much work left in preparing the cowl for painting but this took care of my pinholes. John Danielson ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 06:53:44 PM PST US From: "Gary" Subject: Re: RV-List: RV7 to 7A conversion --> RV-List message posted by: "Gary" Ned.......I wonder if there are any differences in your spar carrythrough? Seems you would at least need longer wing attach bolts, to go through the gear webs. I would check with Van's, and also have a close look at the drawings for the spar bulkhead for both types. Gary --- ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 06:58:15 PM PST US From: "John Huft" Subject: RE: RV-List: Return to Phase 1 test period --> RV-List message posted by: "John Huft" Randy, I am just finishing my phase 1 test period, so I have my Operating Limitations in front of me. It says...After incorporating a major change as described in 21.93, blah, blah, The owner shall make a detailed log book entry describing the change, then following completion of the test flying, , enter "I certify that the prescribed flight test hours have been completed and the aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all maneuvers to be executed, has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features, and is safe for operation. The following aircraft operation data has been demonstrated during the flight testing" speeds Vso____, Vx____, Vy_____, and the weight_____, and CG location_____ at which they werer obtained." Please be sure to let us know what you learn about your new prop. John Huft, RV8 43 hours Pagosa Springs, CO -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Randy Lervold Subject: RV-List: Return to Phase 1 test period --> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Lervold" I'm in the process of installing a new prop (Whirl Wind) which by anyone's definition would constitute a "major change". I understand that I need to put the plane back into a Phase 1 test period for 5 hours, then sign it back out if all is well. Two questions: 1) What language have those before me used in the logbook for this? 2) Another local builder believes he heard that each flight must be logged in the airfram log during this test period. Doesn't sound right to me, any truth to it? Thanks for any advice here, Randy Lervold RV-8, 287.4 hrs www.rv-8.com Home Wing VAF ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 07:03:09 PM PST US From: "Pat Hatch" Subject: Re: RV-List: Electric flaps drawint EF6-1 --> RV-List message posted by: "Pat Hatch" Jeff, I also could not find drawing EF6-1 (I don't think it exists), but I found that the accompanying photos were adequate after studying them for awhile. I can't remember if the EF-606 angle came made or if I made it. Anyway I show it in my little sketch that I made as being 2" long--this pretty much sets the location of the flap motor from the end of the EF-601 channel. The hole through the EF-601 channel and EF-605 was drilled 5/8" up from the channel web. I don't really think it is that critical as long as the flap motor actuator operates through its range without binding on anything. There is supposed to be a little offset in the actuator bolt because the motor is not centered in the channel. Play with it a little and it will all come together OK. Pat Hatch RV-4, N17PH, 700 hrs O-320, Hartzell C/S RV-6, N44PH, 40 hrs O-360, Hartzell C/S Vero Beach, FL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Orear" Subject: RV-List: Electric flaps drawint EF6-1 > --> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Orear" > > List: > > Still working on my electric flaps.....There is a reference at the top of the supplemental instruction page for the electric flaps to a Drawing EF6-1. I can't find this drawing anywhere, nor do I see any entry of it in inventory lists. > > Where is it???! Thing that I want to know is how far from the top edge of EF601 I should put my flap motor. Is this distance critical? Also, is the base of the motor spaced off of the web of EF601 so that it can pivot as the flap weldment rotates? I can visualize pretty much everything else. > Thanks > > > Regards, > > Jeff Orear > RV6A > fuselage...starting to run out of parts...for the time being! > Peshtigo, WI > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 07:19:06 PM PST US From: Vanremog@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: O-320 leaning --> RV-List message posted by: Vanremog@aol.com In a message dated 1/12/2003 5:29:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, martin.hone@tradergroup.com.au writes: > I need to know which cylinder on an O-320 is considered to be the > leanest-running in cruise, so that I can rig it for a EGT probe. > All cylinders are getting CHT probes as I have made a closed plenum cooling > system. Martin- Leo in OZ knows this too, but the hottest cylinder on the Lycoming engines tends to be number three (the right rear cylinder as viewed by a seated pilot in a tractor configuration a/c). That said, in the carbureted engine, the hottest cylinder isn't necessarily always the same one, depending on your altitude/throttle setting over the normal cruise range and when leaning, it may be one cylinder or another that peaks first. I would really encourage you to install a four probe real time EGT and CHT monitoring system to ensure that you are not missing critical data over the life of your engine. Avoid the CHT probes that mount under the spark plugs. -GV (RV-6A N1GV 586hrs) ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 07:27:16 PM PST US From: "Norman" Subject: RV-List: RV2 --> RV-List message posted by: "Norman" Any one know what the RV2 was? Norman Hunger RV6A Delta BC Do not archive ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 08:11:31 PM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: Return to Phase 1 test period --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" Randy, Can't wait to hear about the performance gain you get with this prop. I assume it's a Whirlwind 150? Please keep me in the loop if you don't mind...I'd love to hear any and everything about that prop and how you like the company, installation, performance, etc. Best of luck! Hope everything is well with you. I just got all the tail surfaces mounted on my fuselage and tonight I drilled the engine mount to the firewall...hoping to have this thing on gear in the next day or two so I can move it around more easily. Anyway, I'm looking forward to flying vicariously through you. 8 ) )_( Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy Lervold" Subject: RV-List: Return to Phase 1 test period > --> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Lervold" > > I'm in the process of installing a new prop (Whirl Wind) which by anyone's > definition would constitute a "major change". I understand that I need to > put the plane back into a Phase 1 test period for 5 hours, then sign it back > out if all is well. Two questions: > > 1) What language have those before me used in the logbook for this? > > 2) Another local builder believes he heard that each flight must be logged > in the airfram log during this test period. Doesn't sound right to me, any > truth to it? > > Thanks for any advice here, > Randy Lervold > RV-8, 287.4 hrs > www.rv-8.com > Home Wing VAF > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 08:11:31 PM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: Return to Phase 1 test period --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" Sorry...didn't mean for that to go to the list! DO NOT ARCHIVE ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: Return to Phase 1 test period > Randy, > > Can't wait to hear about the performance gain you get with this prop. I > assume it's a Whirlwind 150? > > Please keep me in the loop if you don't mind...I'd love to hear any and > everything about that prop and how you like the company, installation, > performance, etc. Best of luck! > > Hope everything is well with you. > > I just got all the tail surfaces mounted on my fuselage and tonight I > drilled the engine mount to the firewall...hoping to have this thing on gear > in the next day or two so I can move it around more easily. Anyway, I'm > looking forward to flying vicariously through you. 8 ) > > )_( Dan > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Randy Lervold" > To: ; > Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2003 5:57 PM > Subject: RV-List: Return to Phase 1 test period > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Lervold" > > > > I'm in the process of installing a new prop (Whirl Wind) which by anyone's > > definition would constitute a "major change". I understand that I need to > > put the plane back into a Phase 1 test period for 5 hours, then sign it > back > > out if all is well. Two questions: > > > > 1) What language have those before me used in the logbook for this? > > > > 2) Another local builder believes he heard that each flight must be logged > > in the airfram log during this test period. Doesn't sound right to me, any > > truth to it? > > > > Thanks for any advice here, > > Randy Lervold > > RV-8, 287.4 hrs > > www.rv-8.com > > Home Wing VAF > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 08:11:31 PM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: RV-List: RV2 --> RV-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" If I remember correctly from what Van told me many years ago, It was a modified Stits! Cy Galley - MVR-AACA www.aaca.org/mvr ----- Original Message ----- From: "Norman" Subject: RV-List: RV2 > --> RV-List message posted by: "Norman" > > Any one know what the RV2 was? > > Norman Hunger > RV6A Delta BC > Do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 08:33:09 PM PST US From: "Norman" Subject: Re: RV-List: RV2 --> RV-List message posted by: "Norman" > If I remember correctly from what Van told me many years ago, It was a > modified Stits! It says here in paragraph #5 that that the modified Stits Playboy with Vans new wing was the RV1. http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/pers-van.htm I'm still looking for info on what the RV2 might have been. > > Any one know what the RV2 was? > > > > Norman Hunger > > RV6A Delta BC > > Do not archive ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 08:36:00 PM PST US From: "Norman" Subject: RV-List: Where to find RV's for sale --> RV-List message posted by: "Norman" Here is a RV3 that has ben dammaged but the owner seems to have most of the parts to rebuild it and soem of the work done. $8500 http://www.usaviation.com/aircraft/display3.asp?funcdisplay&resid855&tree133 Here is a great place to find RV's for sale: http://www.aircraft.com/default.asp?guidkc0cl6z0 9 right now but no RV3's, sorry. Click on experimental, then VANS. Nice to see a couple of RV8's above $100,000 with the highest at $125,000. See it at http://www.aircraft.com/listings/forsale/detail.asp?guidxpbwlhm8&pcid1225037&etid1&OHID1052372&nh0 Here is another place where they currently have 43 RV's for sale. http://www.globalplanesearch.com/ Scroll the side bar on the left all the way down to Vans. Here the RV8's go right up to $135,000. VFR 150 hp RV6's seem to be worth about $55,000 with the IFR 200hp RV6A's going up to $80,000. Another place which only has two RV's right now: http://www.flyboytrader.com/index.cfm Click on Experimental. Here's another: http://www.greatvehicles.com/airplanes/used.html Nine pages to go through with everything mixed up. Click on the cars at the bottom and hunt for anything. Kind of fun looking at all the other stuff out there. Jets, helicopters, some thing for every one. Heaps of stuff in flyable condition for under $15,000. In all these sites I didn't see one Rocket for sale. They must go quick. All prices mentioned are USD. Norman Hunger' RV6A Delta BC This concludes your informational post of the evening. ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 08:51:03 PM PST US From: Matthew Gelber Subject: RV-List: For Sale: EI gauges & RV-8A exhaust --> RV-List message posted by: Matthew Gelber 1) Complete set of EI gauges: RPM, MP, Oil P/T, Volts/Amps, Dual Fuel Level, Fuel Pressure w/Flow, Ultimate Bar Graph. Includes all probes/sensors. Purchased new from Chief 18 months ago, still in bubble wrap. Evertything in perfect condition. WOuld prefer to sell all as a complete set. 2) RV-8A exhaust from Van's, for IO-360 (200 HP angle-valve). Purchased new from Van's 18 months ago. Also in perfect shape; was mounted to engine but I've since sold the engine to a RV-6 builder who couldn't use the exhaust. The engine was never run so this too is in perfect condition. Will ONLY work on 8A w/ 200 HP angle valve engine because of the way it routes through the engine mount. Asking price: 80% of whatever Van's current price is, I pay shipping... or best offer if a lot of people respond. I pay shipping within the USA. Reason for sale: project is on indefinite hold until I retire or move somewhere with an airport close by! Contact Matthew Gelber at n48pp@yahoo.com . DO NOT ARCHIVE. ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 10:22:47 PM PST US From: "Jim Jewell" Subject: Re: RV-List: RV2 --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Norman" Subject: RV-List: RV2 > --> RV-List message posted by: "Norman" > > Any one know what the RV2 was? > > Norman Hunger > RV6A Delta BC > Do not archive > Ok,!... Then the next question would have to be what was the RV-1? {;-]!! Hi Norman, If what I've been told is near the truth: The RV-3 was the outcome of the final development stage of a highly modified Stits Playboy. If so?, the RV-2 would likely have been the modified wing on the Playboy fuselage that preceeded the RV-3. Am I close to the facts folks? Jim in Kelowna ====================================================================== > > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 10:31:11 PM PST US From: Vanremog@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Where to find RV's for sale --> RV-List message posted by: Vanremog@aol.com In a message dated 1/12/2003 8:36:39 PM Pacific Standard Time, nhunger@sprint.ca writes: > Here is a RV3 that has ben dammaged I assume he is a friend of Ben Dover. ; ) Do not archive. -GV (RV-6A N1GV 586hrs)