Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:23 AM - Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates (Steffensen Mark (swr1mas))
2. 05:28 AM - 6A Tow Bar... (KAKlewin@aol.com)
3. 05:53 AM - Re: 6A Tow Bar... (Carl Froehlich)
4. 05:55 AM - Re: Need a battery (Elsa & Henry)
5. 06:09 AM - Re: Need a battery (Rick Jory)
6. 06:58 AM - Re: [ Fred Stucklen ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Charles Rowbotham)
7. 07:08 AM - 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall (Gannon, Terence)
8. 07:25 AM - Re: 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall (Bruce Gray)
9. 07:36 AM - Re: 6A Tow Bar... (Elsa & Henry)
10. 08:04 AM - Re: superior engine quote (Scott Brumbelow)
11. 08:31 AM - Re: superior engine quote (lucky macy)
12. 08:31 AM - Re: 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall (thomas a. sargent)
13. 09:00 AM - Re: Taylor Pneumatic Tools (Bert Penney)
14. 09:09 AM - Re: 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall (Rick Jory)
15. 09:34 AM - Re: 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall (Cy Galley)
16. 09:41 AM - I'd like to fly in an RV somewhere around Seattle, WA (rv7a)
17. 09:51 AM - Re: 6A Tow Bar... (Craig Warner)
18. 09:54 AM - Re: 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall (Craig Warner)
19. 10:31 AM - Re: external speaker (Keith and Jean Williams)
20. 10:49 AM - Re: external speaker (Gary Bataller)
21. 10:50 AM - Engine transducer question (probably dumb) (HCRV6@aol.com)
22. 10:50 AM - Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates (JRWillJR@aol.com)
23. 11:04 AM - Re: Need a battery (Charlie & Tupper England)
24. 11:04 AM - Re: I'd like to fly in an RV somewhere around Seattle, WA (Joshua Siler)
25. 11:19 AM - Re: 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall (Ross Mickey)
26. 11:39 AM - Re: external speaker (mstewart@qa.butler.com)
27. 11:45 AM - Re: Engine transducer question (probably dumb) (Cy Galley)
28. 11:51 AM - Re: I'd like to fly in an RV somewhere around Seattle, WA (Ross Schlotthauer)
29. 12:00 PM - Re: Need a battery (Doug Gray)
30. 12:14 PM - Re: Prop Questions (JRWillJR@aol.com)
31. 12:16 PM - Re: superior engine quote (Scott Brumbelow)
32. 12:25 PM - Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates (John Helms)
33. 12:42 PM - Re: superior engine quote (lucky macy)
34. 12:51 PM - Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance (Jeff Point)
35. 12:57 PM - Re: Prop Questions (RV6 Flyer)
36. 01:15 PM - Re: Prop Questions (LeastDrag93066@aol.com)
37. 01:27 PM - Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insur (mstewart@qa.butler.com)
38. 01:35 PM - Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates (John Helms)
39. 02:03 PM - Re: Prop Questions (Laird Owens)
40. 02:18 PM - Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insur ance Rates (John Helms)
41. 02:33 PM - Re: Prop Questions (Konrad Werner)
42. 03:01 PM - Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance (Jeff Point)
43. 03:13 PM - Re: do not archive (David Carter)
44. 03:30 PM - Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates (Larry Pardue)
45. 03:57 PM - Re: Taylor Pneumatic Tools (Jim Streit)
46. 03:59 PM - Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates (John Helms)
47. 04:02 PM - Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates (John Helms)
48. 05:07 PM - Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates (Larry Pardue)
49. 05:25 PM - Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance (Jeff Point)
50. 05:26 PM - Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates (John Helms)
51. 05:37 PM - Need a Battery (long, boring, please respond anyway) (Kyle Boatright)
52. 05:52 PM - Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance (Sam Buchanan)
53. 06:09 PM - >Re:Engine transducer question (Probably Dumb ) (Oldsfolks@aol.com)
54. 06:11 PM - >Re; Need a battery - Cy , note (Oldsfolks@aol.com)
55. 07:48 PM - Re: Need a Battery (long, boring, please respond anyway) (Denis Walsh)
56. 08:16 PM - Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates (Stephen Johnson)
57. 08:28 PM - Re: I'd like to fly in an RV somewhere around Seattle, WA (Dr. Leathers)
58. 08:59 PM - Re: Using cork with Proseal - was "Fuel Lube" (Randall Henderson)
59. 10:17 PM - upholster ? (WPAerial@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Steffensen Mark (swr1mas)" <swr1mas@ups.com>
Listers,
I have been following this thread for the past several days, & just have to
comment. I have a Lycoming IO-360 A1A 200hp engine in my 8A, it provides
fantastic performance etc. I am very happy with the engine and aircraft.
I am assisting several RV builders here in Atlanta with their 6A & 7A
respectively. We are deeply evaluating the merits of engines for each of
their missions etc.
I initial based on all I have read/learned recommended the Superior XP360
product, if it was available when I made my engine decision I would have
bought the XP360.
However, both of these builders have contacted JT Helms at Vangard Insurance
to inquire as to insurance cost with the Experimental engine VS Certificated
Lycoming engine.
The cost of insurance is significantly higher for a RV with a Experimental
engine as compared to the Certificated Lycoming engine.
I am not saying ill/negative of the Superior Product, as a matter of fact, I
believe the Superior engine is the best overall value today in a RV engine,
but just check with your Insurance provider to ensure that you don't get a
big surprise prior to that first flight.
I understand that Superior is in the process of FAA certification of their
product, which I would imagine negate the insurance differential once
certification is issued.
Mark Steffensen
RV8A 315 hours
Atlanta, GA
Message 2
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--> RV-List message posted by: KAKlewin@aol.com
OK...quick tow bar questions for ya'll....got some generic stuff from the archives
on tow bars for the 6A...most say standard cessna tow bars work fine...but
cessna tow bar type that I look at online (sportys, etc...) does't look like
they expand enough to go around the nosewheel fairing... I'm keep wanting to buy
one, but am afraid Im going to have to send it back. Where do these tow bars
attach on our nose gear?? Any specific ideas/part numbers/suppliers out there?
Thanks for the help...as always!!
Kurt Klewin, RV6A Finishing
Do Not Archive
Message 3
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Carl Froehlich" <carlfro@erols.com>
Kurt,
I made a tow bar from a 10' piece of 1/2" copper water pipe. The double
female fitting is exactly the right size to fit over the tow bar bolts. A
spring between the two tow bar arms provides the tension. I used 45 degree
fittings to make the tow bar forks come together, then 90 degree fittings at
the end to make a handle. It works much better that the Cessna type tow
bars I tried, costs less than $10, and only took a couple of hours to make.
Carl Froehlich
RV-8A (flying)
Vienna, VA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of KAKlewin@aol.com
Subject: RV-List: 6A Tow Bar...
--> RV-List message posted by: KAKlewin@aol.com
OK...quick tow bar questions for ya'll....got some generic stuff from the
archives on tow bars for the 6A...most say standard cessna tow bars work
fine...but cessna tow bar type that I look at online (sportys, etc...)
does't look like they expand enough to go around the nosewheel fairing...
I'm keep wanting to buy one, but am afraid Im going to have to send it back.
Where do these tow bars attach on our nose gear?? Any specific ideas/part
numbers/suppliers out there? Thanks for the help...as always!!
Kurt Klewin, RV6A Finishing
Do Not Archive
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Need a battery |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Elsa & Henry" <elsa-henry@darlor-watch.com>
Kyle,
Have you checked the voltage drops in your starter wiring? If not, connect a
voltmeter between your battery negative terminal and the casing of the
starter and measure while cranking. Then repeat the process between the
battery positive terminal and the starter terminal.Add the two
readings --You may be surprised what you find!
Cheers!!----Henry Hore
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Need a battery |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Rick Jory" <rickjory@msn.com>
On this same subject, any 8A (aft mounted battery) drivers having cranking
problems? I have a 0360-A1A with C/S prop, standard (via Vans/Lyc) SkyTec
starter. I started out (no pun intended) with a Concord . . . then a
Odyssey. It seems if the battery is topped off (e.g. charged before
flight), all works okay, but any slight deterioration and no joy?
Rick Jory RV8A
----- Original Message -----
From: Kyle Boatright <kyle.boatright@adelphia.net>
Subject: RV-List: Need a battery
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright"
<kyle.boatright@adelphia.net>
>
> I currently have a Concorde RG-25XC in the RV-6. I've never been
particularly impressed with its cold cranking ability. I imagine the wood
prop and the Prestolite starter contribute to the problem. I am considering
switching batteries to something with more cold cranking amps.
>
> Neither Van's site nor Aircraft Spruce show the cranking amps for Concorde
batteries, which makes it hard to look for a battery that offers more
cranking power. Can anyone point me to the appropriate data or (even
better) post comparison data for similar batteries?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: [ Fred Stucklen ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Charles Rowbotham" <crowbotham@hotmail.com>
Fred,
Looks great !
Chuck Rowbotham
RV-8A
>From: Email List Photo Shares <pictures@matronics.com>
>Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com
>To: Email List Photo Shares <pictures@matronics.com>
>Subject: RV-List: [ Fred Stucklen ] : New Email List Photo Share Available!
>Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 13:57:07 -0800
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares
><pictures@matronics.com>
>
>
>A new Email List Photo Share is available:
>
> Poster: Fred Stucklen <Fred.Stucklen@UTCFuelCells.com>
>
>
> Subject: Instrument Panel & Radio Stack Wiring
>
>
>http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/Fred.Stucklen@UTCFuelCells.com.01.19.2003/index.html
>
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
> o EMAIL LIST PHOTO SHARE
>
> Share your files and photos with other List members simply by
> emailing the files to:
>
> pictures@matronics.com
>
> Please view the typical Share above and include the Description Text
> Fields as shown along with your submission of files and photos.
>
> o Main Photo Share Index:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
>
> --------------------------------------------
>
>
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
Message 7
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| Subject: | 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Gannon, Terence" <Terence.Gannon@trican.ca>
'Listers -- I'm contemplating finishing my -6 firewall prior to
beginning assembly using a technique I call 'scallop polishing' -- it
might have some other name of which I'm not aware. Y'know, it' the
technique that uses a series of overlapping circles that when complete
results in a pattern roughly resembling a scallop shell. (The most
famous example of this technique is the cowl of the Spirit of St. Louis
-- "aaaaah, so THAT'S what he means!"). I was wondering if anybody has
either done this, or has any experience with this technique in some
other application. My current plan is to program a CNC router to do the
job, and also to use NO other treatment or coating for the firewall once
complete. Any thoughts, comments, ideas that I should aware of before
proceeding? Thank you, in advance, for your assistance.
Terry in Calgary
RV-6 S/N 24414
"Wings, Starting Fuse"
Message 8
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| Subject: | 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
The process to which you refer is called 'engine turning'. Do a google
search and you will find quite a few web sites that explain the process
and show different methods.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gannon, Terence
Subject: RV-List: 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall
--> RV-List message posted by: "Gannon, Terence"
<Terence.Gannon@trican.ca>
'Listers -- I'm contemplating finishing my -6 firewall prior to
beginning assembly using a technique I call 'scallop polishing' -- it
might have some other name of which I'm not aware. Y'know, it' the
technique that uses a series of overlapping circles that when complete
results in a pattern roughly resembling a scallop shell. (The most
famous example of this technique is the cowl of the Spirit of St. Louis
-- "aaaaah, so THAT'S what he means!"). I was wondering if anybody has
either done this, or has any experience with this technique in some
other application. My current plan is to program a CNC router to do the
job, and also to use NO other treatment or coating for the firewall once
complete. Any thoughts, comments, ideas that I should aware of before
proceeding? Thank you, in advance, for your assistance.
Terry in Calgary
RV-6 S/N 24414
"Wings, Starting Fuse"
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: 6A Tow Bar... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Elsa & Henry" <elsa-henry@darlor-watch.com>
Kurt,
Check-out Ken Barto at jbarto@banet.net . He made mine, a nice job, made
out of #4130, light, and fits across the baggage compartment. Plugs into the
hex sockets of the nose-wheel cap-screws. He makes them to fit the original
kit pants or the wider new design ones. The last Van's Accessories Catalog I
have is the 2000 one and he's listed there under "Other Suppliers"
Cheers!!----Henry Hore
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: superior engine quote |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Brumbelow <csbrumbelow@fedex.com>
The engines and prices from Superior are "new"...
For what it is worth, I took delivery of my O-360 B1A2 a couple of months ago.
Superior offered me the choice of having Aerosport Power, America's Aircraft
Engines, or Mattituck do the build. I chose America's Aircraft Engines primarily
because I had talked to them at Oshkosh, I had seen them build one up at one of
the forum, and their shipping was going to be cheaper than AeroSport. Mattituck
got ruled out while I was at Oshkosh. Anyway, Superior and America's worked with
me on getting an Ellison Throttle Body installed - Superior kept the carb and
gave me credit, and America's built up and test ran the engine with the Ellison.
The workmanship seems to be outstanding, and everyone I dealt with at Superior
and America's was super. America's was particularly good at keeping me informed
regarding status, etc. Needless to say, I am (so far) please with my decision.
Scott in Memphis
RV-8A
RV8ter@aol.com wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: RV8ter@aol.com
>
> The letter does not appear to state. It says built with new millennium
> cylinders in accordance with superior air parts...with all new FAA approved
> parts. Each engine comes with a 3 year warranty or Manufacturer's
> recommended TBO, whichever occurs first.
>
> I guess that would imply rebuild?
>
> In a message dated 1/19/2003 8:26:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> dlndqst@optonline.net writes:
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: David Lundquist <dlndqst@optonline.net>
> >
> > Maybe I'm missing the obvious, but are the Superior engines you were quoted
> > factory NEW or ReMan? They sound too low for factory new.
> >
> > Dave Lundquist
> >
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: superior engine quote |
--> RV-List message posted by: "lucky macy" <luckymacy@hotmail.com>
Man, at the risk of getting sidetracked, I have a question on your selection
of Ellison Throttle Body. I've read/heard mostly negative opinions about
this system. But I have an open mind. What are the pros and cons of this
vs. standard carb and fuel injection? Have they gone through a redesign
over time? A dad I know who lost his only son in an experiment crash blames
this carb but that was many years ago...
thanks,
lucky
>From: Scott Brumbelow <csbrumbelow@fedex.com>
>Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: superior engine quote
>Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 10:03:42 -0600
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Brumbelow <csbrumbelow@fedex.com>
>
>The engines and prices from Superior are "new"...
>
>For what it is worth, I took delivery of my O-360 B1A2 a couple of months
>ago.
>Superior offered me the choice of having Aerosport Power, America's
>Aircraft
>Engines, or Mattituck do the build. I chose America's Aircraft Engines
>primarily
>because I had talked to them at Oshkosh, I had seen them build one up at
>one of
>the forum, and their shipping was going to be cheaper than AeroSport.
>Mattituck
>got ruled out while I was at Oshkosh. Anyway, Superior and America's worked
>with
>me on getting an Ellison Throttle Body installed - Superior kept the carb
>and
>gave me credit, and America's built up and test ran the engine with the
>Ellison.
>
>The workmanship seems to be outstanding, and everyone I dealt with at
>Superior
>and America's was super. America's was particularly good at keeping me
>informed
>regarding status, etc. Needless to say, I am (so far) please with my
>decision.
>
>Scott in Memphis
>RV-8A
>
>
>RV8ter@aol.com wrote:
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: RV8ter@aol.com
> >
> > The letter does not appear to state. It says built with new millennium
> > cylinders in accordance with superior air parts...with all new FAA
>approved
> > parts. Each engine comes with a 3 year warranty or Manufacturer's
> > recommended TBO, whichever occurs first.
> >
> > I guess that would imply rebuild?
> >
> > In a message dated 1/19/2003 8:26:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> > dlndqst@optonline.net writes:
> >
> > > --> RV-List message posted by: David Lundquist <dlndqst@optonline.net>
> > >
> > > Maybe I'm missing the obvious, but are the Superior engines you were
>quoted
> > > factory NEW or ReMan? They sound too low for factory new.
> > >
> > > Dave Lundquist
> > >
> >
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall |
--> RV-List message posted by: "thomas a. sargent" <sarg314@earthlink.com>
Terry:
I knew a fellow who redid the dash board in his car and did a nice
looking job of engine turning with a large dowel chucked in a drill
press. He fastened some steel wool to the end of the dowel and just
pressed it against the aluminum turning at a low speed. This requires a
lot of practice on scrap first, of course. And some method of
accurately indexing the piece in a regular grid of positions.
--
Tom Sargent
Message 13
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| Subject: | Taylor Pneumatic Tools |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bert Penney" <van@entechnos.com>
Thanks for your replies, Bill and Brad. I will place them in the list
of contenders.
Bert
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Irvine [mailto:wgirvine@yahoo.com]
Subject: RV-List: Taylor Pneumatic Tools
--> RV-List message posted by: Bill Irvine <wgirvine@yahoo.com>
> As a result of email conversations on this list, I
> was able to find a local tool supplier. However,
> the only pneumatic tool line they carry is Taylor.
> I have no experience with these at all and was
> wondering if anyone else has any recommendations on
> this line.
I got the Taylor 90 and 45 degree air drills from
Avery several years ago. Love 'em, great tools. I
highly recommend them.
Bill
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Rick Jory" <rickjory@msn.com>
There is a 6A builder that did this "finish look" to the inlet ramp portion
of his engine baffle. I didn't watch him do it, but he told me all he did
was put a Scotchbrite wheel (the "pads", a.k.a. the surfacing conditioning
disc, not the "polishing wheel") into his die grinder and
"polished/scratched" a pattern. Came out pretty good!
Rick Jory RV8A
----- Original Message -----
From: thomas a. sargent <sarg314@earthlink.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall
> --> RV-List message posted by: "thomas a. sargent" <sarg314@earthlink.com>
>
> Terry:
> I knew a fellow who redid the dash board in his car and did a nice
> looking job of engine turning with a large dowel chucked in a drill
> press. He fastened some steel wool to the end of the dowel and just
> pressed it against the aluminum turning at a low speed. This requires a
> lot of practice on scrap first, of course. And some method of
> accurately indexing the piece in a regular grid of positions.
>
> --
> Tom Sargent
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
Correct term is "engine polishing" or engine turning
Cy Galley - MVR-AACA www.aaca.org/mvr
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gannon, Terence" <Terence.Gannon@trican.ca>
Subject: RV-List: 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Gannon, Terence"
<Terence.Gannon@trican.ca>
>
> 'Listers -- I'm contemplating finishing my -6 firewall prior to
> beginning assembly using a technique I call 'scallop polishing' -- it
> might have some other name of which I'm not aware. Y'know, it' the
> technique that uses a series of overlapping circles that when complete
> results in a pattern roughly resembling a scallop shell. (The most
> famous example of this technique is the cowl of the Spirit of St. Louis
> -- "aaaaah, so THAT'S what he means!"). I was wondering if anybody has
> either done this, or has any experience with this technique in some
> other application. My current plan is to program a CNC router to do the
> job, and also to use NO other treatment or coating for the firewall once
> complete. Any thoughts, comments, ideas that I should aware of before
> proceeding? Thank you, in advance, for your assistance.
>
> Terry in Calgary
> RV-6 S/N 24414
> "Wings, Starting Fuse"
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | I'd like to fly in an RV somewhere around Seattle, WA |
--> RV-List message posted by: rv7a <rv7a@prosody.org>
I'm considering building an RV-7A.
I fly out of Boeing Field - got my PPL in November.
I saw an RV flying out of 0S9 yesterday - cool.
I like what I see in the RVs.
But I don't want to commit without flying in one.
Can any of you PNW RV flyers give me a ride?
Please let me know.
Thanks, Joe Edwards
Message 17
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|
| Subject: | Re: 6A Tow Bar... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Craig Warner" <cwarner@twcny.rr.com>
Ken Barto (315-622-2072) makes a tow bar for the RV6A. Don't know the price
but tell him the guy that painted his airplane sent you.
Best reguards
Craig Warner RV6A still buildin
----- Original Message -----
From: <KAKlewin@aol.com>
Subject: RV-List: 6A Tow Bar...
> --> RV-List message posted by: KAKlewin@aol.com
>
> OK...quick tow bar questions for ya'll....got some generic stuff from the
archives on tow bars for the 6A...most say standard cessna tow bars work
fine...but cessna tow bar type that I look at online (sportys, etc...)
does't look like they expand enough to go around the nosewheel fairing...
I'm keep wanting to buy one, but am afraid Im going to have to send it back.
Where do these tow bars attach on our nose gear?? Any specific ideas/part
numbers/suppliers out there? Thanks for the help...as always!!
>
> Kurt Klewin, RV6A Finishing
>
> Do Not Archive
>
>
Message 18
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|
| Subject: | Re: 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Craig Warner" <cwarner@twcny.rr.com>
In the automotive field this process is called "engine turning". You can do
it with a wooden dowel and valve lapping compound.
Craig Warner RV6A still building
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gannon, Terence" <Terence.Gannon@trican.ca>
Subject: RV-List: 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Gannon, Terence"
<Terence.Gannon@trican.ca>
>
> 'Listers -- I'm contemplating finishing my -6 firewall prior to
> beginning assembly using a technique I call 'scallop polishing' -- it
> might have some other name of which I'm not aware. Y'know, it' the
> technique that uses a series of overlapping circles that when complete
> results in a pattern roughly resembling a scallop shell. (The most
> famous example of this technique is the cowl of the Spirit of St. Louis
> -- "aaaaah, so THAT'S what he means!"). I was wondering if anybody has
> either done this, or has any experience with this technique in some
> other application. My current plan is to program a CNC router to do the
> job, and also to use NO other treatment or coating for the firewall once
> complete. Any thoughts, comments, ideas that I should aware of before
> proceeding? Thank you, in advance, for your assistance.
>
> Terry in Calgary
> RV-6 S/N 24414
> "Wings, Starting Fuse"
>
>
Message 19
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|
| Subject: | external speaker |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Keith and Jean Williams" <kandjwilliams@earthlink.net>
Bert,
I did just about as Jim Oke in the post below - mine is back under the panel
out of sight with no screen. Wired through audio panel (I'm using two
Nav/Coms), extra mike jack, etc.
I have never tried to use it in flight. Tried it a couple of times on the
ground just to see that it works but other than that have never used it in
3+ years of flying. I carry a handheld which I use for "before engine
start" ATIS/AWOS and (rarely) clearances.
Keith Williams
RV6 - Moline IL
Bert;
Although not usable for in-flight listening or whenever the engine is
running, a cockpit speaker can be a help when copying ATIS or a clearance
prior to engine start. I added one to my radio installation and also a jack
for a handheld microphone to talk as well without a headset. (This will also
be a back up for the day when my headset mic dies, etc.)
I checked the speaker impedance needed for my radio and went shopping at the
local Radio Shack. About $10 for a 4 inch or so utility speaker. Certainly
not the lightest or smallest out there but the price was right. I mounted it
on one of the F6107s up near the firewall. Cut a suitable sized hole with a
fly cutter and sandwiched a piece of screen material (from the Home Depot
screen door dept.) between speaker and the 6107 to keep out flies, errant
fingers, or whatever. Pretty quick, adding the wiring with a connector for
panel removal took longer.
Jim Oke
RV-6A - at the hanger but still working on the wiring
Winnipeg, MB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bert Forero" <bert6@mybluelight.com>
Subject: RV-List: external speaker
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Bert Forero" <bert6@mybluelight.com>
>
> Hi:
>
> I would like to hear from those who have installed
> an external speaker, inside the cokpit. What type have
> been installed, size, and place of installation, and
> where you found it...
>
>
> I have looked for a very small one, but cannot find one
> the ones I have seing, are too big, for what I want,
> and they do not have a cover,
>
> thanks
>
> Bert
>
> rv6a
> Electrical panel odds and ends...
>
> Do Not Archive
>
>
> Sign up for Internet Service under $10 dollars a month, at
http://isp.BlueLight.com
>
>
Message 20
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|
| Subject: | external speaker |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Gary Bataller" <gary_bataller@hotmail.com>
I used an external speaker on my RV6A (in the early 90's). I found that the
speaker magnet affected the magnetic compass to a very large degree, so be
careful where you mount it. I seem to remember that the compass was
affected even with the speaker mounted in the seat back. I too decided to
use a handheld and got rid of the speaker.
gary b
RV7 SB
>From: "Keith and Jean Williams" <kandjwilliams@earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com
>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: RV-List: external speaker
>Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:33:52 -0600
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Keith and Jean Williams"
><kandjwilliams@earthlink.net>
>
>Bert,
>
>I did just about as Jim Oke in the post below - mine is back under the
>panel
>out of sight with no screen. Wired through audio panel (I'm using two
>Nav/Coms), extra mike jack, etc.
>
>I have never tried to use it in flight. Tried it a couple of times on the
>ground just to see that it works but other than that have never used it in
>3+ years of flying. I carry a handheld which I use for "before engine
>start" ATIS/AWOS and (rarely) clearances.
>
>Keith Williams
>RV6 - Moline IL
>
>
>Bert;
>
>Although not usable for in-flight listening or whenever the engine is
>running, a cockpit speaker can be a help when copying ATIS or a clearance
>prior to engine start. I added one to my radio installation and also a jack
>for a handheld microphone to talk as well without a headset. (This will
>also
>be a back up for the day when my headset mic dies, etc.)
>
>I checked the speaker impedance needed for my radio and went shopping at
>the
>local Radio Shack. About $10 for a 4 inch or so utility speaker. Certainly
>not the lightest or smallest out there but the price was right. I mounted
>it
>on one of the F6107s up near the firewall. Cut a suitable sized hole with a
>fly cutter and sandwiched a piece of screen material (from the Home Depot
>screen door dept.) between speaker and the 6107 to keep out flies, errant
>fingers, or whatever. Pretty quick, adding the wiring with a connector for
>panel removal took longer.
>
>Jim Oke
>RV-6A - at the hanger but still working on the wiring
>Winnipeg, MB
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Bert Forero" <bert6@mybluelight.com>
>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RV-List: external speaker
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "Bert Forero" <bert6@mybluelight.com>
> >
> > Hi:
> >
> > I would like to hear from those who have installed
> > an external speaker, inside the cokpit. What type have
> > been installed, size, and place of installation, and
> > where you found it...
> >
> >
> > I have looked for a very small one, but cannot find one
> > the ones I have seing, are too big, for what I want,
> > and they do not have a cover,
> >
> > thanks
> >
> > Bert
> >
> > rv6a
> > Electrical panel odds and ends...
> >
> > Do Not Archive
> >
> >
> > Sign up for Internet Service under $10 dollars a month, at
>http://isp.BlueLight.com
> >
> >
>
>
Message 21
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|
| Subject: | Engine transducer question (probably dumb) |
--> RV-List message posted by: HCRV6@aol.com
Is it acceptable to mount an oil pressure switch with the oil inlet end
pointing up at a 45 degree angle?
Harry Crosby
Pleasanton, California
RV-6, starting firewall forward
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance |
Rates
--> RV-List message posted by: JRWillJR@aol.com
Mark, I spoke to several insurers including Falcon who I have my
"construction" insurance through. I was told that they will insure the XP-360
engine as if it were a Lycoming. It is an "aviation" type engine is the
wording they used. I was also told a Subaru is not an "aviation" type engine.
The insured cost was the same. If the company is not familiar with these
engines they may well quote a higher price just like they do with a Subaru.
The fellow I spoke with knew exactly what I was talking about and said they
had several insured. Unless something has changed since I spoke to them a
month or so ago I am expecting the insurance costs to be the same. Really,
there is nothing experimental about an engine built from all PMA parts. JR
Message 23
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|
| Subject: | Re: Need a battery |
--> RV-List message posted by: Charlie & Tupper England <cengland@netdoor.com>
Kyle Boatright wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright" <kyle.boatright@adelphia.net>
>
>I spent 30 or more minutes on the Aeroelectric list before I posted my
>question. Lots of information there, but I didn't find anything that
>directly addressed my question.
>
>I'm fairly disciplined about scouring the archives before I post to the
>list... ;-)
>
>KB
>
>do not archive
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Charlie & Tupper England" <cengland@netdoor.com>
>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Need a battery
>
snipped
Sorry about that; but some RV listers don't read the Aero list.
Try
http://206.171.106.212/Concorde/Drawing/CommercialSpecs/ValveRegulated/RG-25xc.pdf
and
http://www.concordebattery.com/products/Com_Specs_List.cfm
Charlie
Message 24
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|
| Subject: | I'd like to fly in an RV somewhere around Seattle, WA |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Joshua Siler" <joshs@ninatek.com>
If you can't find a ride, just jump down to Van's in Portland. They give
first rides in the factory demonstrators there, and you can check out
the factory at the same time.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rv7a
Subject: RV-List: I'd like to fly in an RV somewhere around Seattle, WA
--> RV-List message posted by: rv7a <rv7a@prosody.org>
I'm considering building an RV-7A.
I fly out of Boeing Field - got my PPL in November.
I saw an RV flying out of 0S9 yesterday - cool.
I like what I see in the RVs.
But I don't want to commit without flying in one.
Can any of you PNW RV flyers give me a ride?
Please let me know.
Thanks, Joe Edwards
Message 25
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|
| Subject: | Re: 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ross Mickey" <rmickey@ix.netcom.com>
I did this to my firewall. Here is how I did it.
The tool I used to make the "scallops" was a 2" diameter scotchbrite wheel
chucked in a standard drill.
I made a "jig" out of a piece of wood lathe that was slightly longer than
the firewall is wide.
I measured off 2 inch marks on the lathe and made a grove the size of the
mandrel that holds the scothbrite wheel along the edge of the lathe at the
2" intervals.
I clamped the jig 1 inch below the top of the firewall and scuffed circles
across the firewall using the groves.
I moved the jig down 1 inch and over 1 inch and repeated the scuffing. This
gives the fish scale look.
Continue to the end.
This took more time than I had originally thought. Stainless steel is
tough.
I am reciting this from my memory of what I did 8 years ago so if the
details aren't quite right at least you have the general idea.
Ross Mickey
RV6A
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gannon, Terence" <Terence.Gannon@trican.ca>
Subject: RV-List: 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Gannon, Terence"
<Terence.Gannon@trican.ca>
>
> 'Listers -- I'm contemplating finishing my -6 firewall prior to
> beginning assembly using a technique I call 'scallop polishing' -- it
> might have some other name of which I'm not aware. Y'know, it' the
> technique that uses a series of overlapping circles that when complete
> results in a pattern roughly resembling a scallop shell. (The most
> famous example of this technique is the cowl of the Spirit of St. Louis
> -- "aaaaah, so THAT'S what he means!"). I was wondering if anybody has
> either done this, or has any experience with this technique in some
> other application. My current plan is to program a CNC router to do the
> job, and also to use NO other treatment or coating for the firewall once
> complete. Any thoughts, comments, ideas that I should aware of before
> proceeding? Thank you, in advance, for your assistance.
>
> Terry in Calgary
> RV-6 S/N 24414
> "Wings, Starting Fuse"
>
>
Message 26
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|
| Subject: | external speaker |
--> RV-List message posted by: mstewart@qa.butler.com
I have my Rat Shack speaker mounted to the upper Right baggage wall of my
6A.
I bolted it directly to the wall, and drilled holes in the wall to let the
sound out, much like a perforated dashboard.
I can hear mine in flight no problem, although I rarely use it for that.
Only time in flight I use it is when my ears hurt on a long trip, I take my
headsets off for a while and push the speaker button on the panel so I don't
miss anything while IFR.
I use it when I am out of the plane and want to hear whats going on, like at
Osh, SnF, or when Im waiting for my buddies to arrive at my airport and I
want to hear them come in. Nothing better than sitting in the folding chairs
at SnF listening to all the airshow stuff through that nice speaker, instead
in the portable. Plus others can hear also.
Wired to my audiopanel.
http://www.mstewart.net/michael/rv/
Go to Finishing, Interior, last picture, you can see it mounted on the
baggage wall.
Mike Stewart
-----Original Message-----
From: Keith and Jean Williams [mailto:kandjwilliams@earthlink.net]
Subject: RE: RV-List: external speaker
--> RV-List message posted by: "Keith and Jean Williams"
<kandjwilliams@earthlink.net>
Bert,
I did just about as Jim Oke in the post below - mine is back under the panel
out of sight with no screen. Wired through audio panel (I'm using two
Nav/Coms), extra mike jack, etc.
I have never tried to use it in flight. Tried it a couple of times on the
ground just to see that it works but other than that have never used it in
3+ years of flying. I carry a handheld which I use for "before engine
start" ATIS/AWOS and (rarely) clearances.
Keith Williams
RV6 - Moline IL
Bert;
Although not usable for in-flight listening or whenever the engine is
running, a cockpit speaker can be a help when copying ATIS or a clearance
prior to engine start. I added one to my radio installation and also a jack
for a handheld microphone to talk as well without a headset. (This will also
be a back up for the day when my headset mic dies, etc.)
I checked the speaker impedance needed for my radio and went shopping at the
local Radio Shack. About $10 for a 4 inch or so utility speaker. Certainly
not the lightest or smallest out there but the price was right. I mounted it
on one of the F6107s up near the firewall. Cut a suitable sized hole with a
fly cutter and sandwiched a piece of screen material (from the Home Depot
screen door dept.) between speaker and the 6107 to keep out flies, errant
fingers, or whatever. Pretty quick, adding the wiring with a connector for
panel removal took longer.
Jim Oke
RV-6A - at the hanger but still working on the wiring
Winnipeg, MB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bert Forero" <bert6@mybluelight.com>
Subject: RV-List: external speaker
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Bert Forero" <bert6@mybluelight.com>
>
> Hi:
>
> I would like to hear from those who have installed
> an external speaker, inside the cokpit. What type have
> been installed, size, and place of installation, and
> where you found it...
>
>
> I have looked for a very small one, but cannot find one
> the ones I have seing, are too big, for what I want,
> and they do not have a cover,
>
> thanks
>
> Bert
>
> rv6a
> Electrical panel odds and ends...
>
> Do Not Archive
>
>
> Sign up for Internet Service under $10 dollars a month, at
http://isp.BlueLight.com
>
>
Message 27
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|
| Subject: | Re: Engine transducer question (probably dumb) |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
Yes, you can point it anywhere you want and it will give exactly the same
readings. Don't forget a restrictor. I think this is a very important safety
device.
Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org
Always looking for articles for the Experimenter
----- Original Message -----
From: <HCRV6@aol.com>
Subject: RV-List: Engine transducer question (probably dumb)
> --> RV-List message posted by: HCRV6@aol.com
>
> Is it acceptable to mount an oil pressure switch with the oil inlet end
> pointing up at a 45 degree angle?
>
> Harry Crosby
> Pleasanton, California
> RV-6, starting firewall forward
>
>
Message 28
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|
| Subject: | I'd like to fly in an RV somewhere around Seattle, WA |
--> RV-List message posted by: Ross Schlotthauer <rdschlotthauer@yahoo.com>
Josh,
I hate to break it to you, but you are screwed either
way. Your going to build one so just send the check
and get that tail coming. Your workmanship will be
better if you don't go for the ride. You will be more
patient and do a better job of riveting. If you take
the ride you will be all excited and tackle that tail
with way too much exuberance. I am speaking from
experience. I was happy with motorcycles,
snowmobiles, hunting and fishing until this dreadful
activity began running my life. Now I have to duck
out of work at lunch to get my fix at Home Depot and
Harbor Freight just to tide me over until I can get
home and back to ignoring my wife in the solitude of
the garage. From what I can tell there is no relief
in sight. I know a guy that has built four of these
F*&%ing things. Just get out the check book and start
bleeding.
P.S. I wouldn't have it any other way!
Good luck
Ross Schlotthauer
RV7 Fuse
Finish kit on order with 17 week lead time!
--- Joshua Siler <joshs@ninatek.com> wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Joshua Siler"
> <joshs@ninatek.com>
>
> If you can't find a ride, just jump down to Van's in
> Portland. They give
> first rides in the factory demonstrators there, and
> you can check out
> the factory at the same time.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On
> Behalf Of rv7a
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV-List: I'd like to fly in an RV somewhere
> around Seattle, WA
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: rv7a
> <rv7a@prosody.org>
>
>
> I'm considering building an RV-7A.
> I fly out of Boeing Field - got my PPL in November.
>
> I saw an RV flying out of 0S9 yesterday - cool.
> I like what I see in the RVs.
> But I don't want to commit without flying in one.
>
> Can any of you PNW RV flyers give me a ride?
>
> Please let me know.
>
> Thanks, Joe Edwards
>
>
>
> Contributions
> any other
> Forums.
>
> latest messages.
> List members.
>
> http://www.matronics.com/subscription
> http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm
> Digests:http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list
> http://www.matronics.com/archives
> http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
> http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
>
>
>
>
>
Message 29
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|
| Subject: | Re: Need a battery |
--> RV-List message posted by: Doug Gray <dgra1233@bigpond.net.au>
> Have you checked the voltage drops in your starter wiring? If not, connect a
> voltmeter between your battery negative terminal and the casing of the
> starter and measure while cranking.
How about measuring voltage across the starter itself, ie the voltage
between the starter case (ground at the starter) and the starter
terminal that way you will also include any drop in the ground return path.
Rwgarding the Concorde specs, perhaps I missed this but is the internal
resistance given for these batteries?
Doug Gray
Message 30
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|
| Subject: | Re: Prop Questions |
--> RV-List message posted by: JRWillJR@aol.com
This is just a guess, I suspect Hartzell is working on a blade with a
different twist in the blades that will optimize it for the speed range at
which RV aircraft fly. I have been told by numerous knowledgeable people and
I think articles in the RVator that the current prop, while excellent was
still not optimal. That is just a guess and I figure Hartzell will not say
anything about it 'till they actually decide to produce it, finish certifying
it or whatever. Do Not Archive. JR
Message 31
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|
| Subject: | Re: superior engine quote |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Brumbelow <csbrumbelow@fedex.com>
Interesting - I've heard nothing but good things about the Ellison. Nonetheless,
some of the reasons for my choice are below:
1) capable of inverted flight (you have to remain at positive g's with a
standard carb, because of the float - there is no float with the Ellison)
2) simplicity
3) better fuel performance
4) smoother running engine
Again, my individual choice was between the Ellison and a standard carb. Much of
my "opinion" was formed based on a fellow pilot friend who used to be my safety
in aerobatics. This guy is simply the best pilot I have flown with, and has
years of experience flying many different aircraft. He has owned a couple of
Pitts, an RV 4, a Yak, etc., etc., and also had a lot of pilot friends along the
way. Based on his experience - and that of any of his friends that had the
Ellison - it came highly recommended.
For what it is worth, America's Aircraft Engines - who had never SEEN an Ellison
Throttle Body before - called me at one point to specifically tell me how easy
the engine was to set up with the Ellison, and how with the Ellison my engine
was the smoothest running engine they had had in their shop.
Again, the most critical factor for me was the desire for the capability of
inverted flight. The Ellison was a much more economical alternative than
"standard" fuel injection. Plus, part of the endorsement mentioned above
included a couple of people who had actually replaced fuel injection systems
with the Ellison.
For what it is worth...
OBTW, where have you read/heard the negative comments about the Ellison?
Scott Memphis
RV-8A
lucky macy wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "lucky macy" <luckymacy@hotmail.com>
>
> Man, at the risk of getting sidetracked, I have a question on your selection
> of Ellison Throttle Body. I've read/heard mostly negative opinions about
> this system. But I have an open mind. What are the pros and cons of this
> vs. standard carb and fuel injection? Have they gone through a redesign
> over time? A dad I know who lost his only son in an experiment crash blames
> this carb but that was many years ago...
>
> thanks,
> lucky
>
> >From: Scott Brumbelow <csbrumbelow@fedex.com>
> >Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com
> >To: rv-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Re: RV-List: superior engine quote
> >Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 10:03:42 -0600
> >
> >--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Brumbelow <csbrumbelow@fedex.com>
> >
> >The engines and prices from Superior are "new"...
> >
> >For what it is worth, I took delivery of my O-360 B1A2 a couple of months
> >ago.
> >Superior offered me the choice of having Aerosport Power, America's
> >Aircraft
> >Engines, or Mattituck do the build. I chose America's Aircraft Engines
> >primarily
> >because I had talked to them at Oshkosh, I had seen them build one up at
> >one of
> >the forum, and their shipping was going to be cheaper than AeroSport.
> >Mattituck
> >got ruled out while I was at Oshkosh. Anyway, Superior and America's worked
> >with
> >me on getting an Ellison Throttle Body installed - Superior kept the carb
> >and
> >gave me credit, and America's built up and test ran the engine with the
> >Ellison.
> >
> >The workmanship seems to be outstanding, and everyone I dealt with at
> >Superior
> >and America's was super. America's was particularly good at keeping me
> >informed
> >regarding status, etc. Needless to say, I am (so far) please with my
> >decision.
> >
> >Scott in Memphis
> >RV-8A
> >
> >
> >RV8ter@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > > --> RV-List message posted by: RV8ter@aol.com
> > >
> > > The letter does not appear to state. It says built with new millennium
> > > cylinders in accordance with superior air parts...with all new FAA
> >approved
> > > parts. Each engine comes with a 3 year warranty or Manufacturer's
> > > recommended TBO, whichever occurs first.
> > >
> > > I guess that would imply rebuild?
> > >
> > > In a message dated 1/19/2003 8:26:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> > > dlndqst@optonline.net writes:
> > >
> > > > --> RV-List message posted by: David Lundquist <dlndqst@optonline.net>
> > > >
> > > > Maybe I'm missing the obvious, but are the Superior engines you were
> >quoted
> > > > factory NEW or ReMan? They sound too low for factory new.
> > > >
> > > > Dave Lundquist
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance |
Rates
--> RV-List message posted by: "John Helms" <jhelms@i1.net>
First of all, Falcon is a broker like NationAir. We brokers don't set the
rates. We both deal with the exact same companies. The companies that are
the most competitive on RV's with Lycomings (Phoenix and AIG) will not write
coverage for the Superior engines.
There are companies that will write coverage for RV's with the superior
engines, but their rates are higher. So, if Falcon told you there was no
difference, they either didn't know what they are talking about, or they
lied, or they were planning on not informing the company about the engine
(which would void your coverage, but you'd have a pretty good case against
them.)
Your statement will likely send those interested in those engines flooding
to Falcon for quotes (their intent) but when you get the quotes and are
disappointed (either because the rates are too high, or because you find out
it was too good to be true, and you paid for coverage you couldn't collect
on) you'll be sad. AIG is typically the most competitive company and they
have added the same type of wording to their online quote system (copied
directly from AIG's broker online system - Have there been any major
modifications to this aircraft including alterations to powerplant or
airframe that differs from the original manufacture or design?) Now, with
that question on there, if your broker answered "no" but you had other than
a Lyc. in your RV, you would have no coverage (again, you would have a case
against the broker, but you would have to prove that you informed them about
the engine type.)
Your post makes it sound as if I don't know what a Superior engine is. That
is not the case at all...as a matter of fact I have been trying to get
Phoenix to accept them for quite some time.
The two main issues are:
1. whether or not the engine manufacturer has products coverage. Products
coverage can potentially pay for claims if they result from engine failure.
Superior now has products coverage.
2. the number of engines out there. Normally, until there are several
hundred (500 or so, not 200) of the engines out there and installed, and the
companies can see how reliable they are, they won't write coverage for them,
or will charge more for it.
When the Van's Program started all parties (NationAir, Phoenix, and Van's)
agreed that it was best if the program was restricted to engines recommended
by Van's (Lycoming). This hasn't changed, and Van is not likely to start
recommending any other engines anytime soon. But, I am still hopeful that
with #1 above satisfied, and #2 increasing all the time, that eventually we
will be able to get them included as part of the program.
Desperately trying to get people to understand that their are brokers out
there that will tell you anything to get your business. (Even knowingly
deceive an insurance company voiding your coverage.)
John "JT" Helms
Branch Manager
NationAir Insurance Agency
Pleasure and Business Branch
----- Original Message -----
From: <JRWillJR@aol.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines &
Insurance Rates
--> RV-List message posted by: JRWillJR@aol.com
Mark, I spoke to several insurers including Falcon who I have my
"construction" insurance through. I was told that they will insure the
XP-360
engine as if it were a Lycoming. It is an "aviation" type engine is the
wording they used. I was also told a Subaru is not an "aviation" type
engine.
The insured cost was the same. If the company is not familiar with these
engines they may well quote a higher price just like they do with a Subaru.
The fellow I spoke with knew exactly what I was talking about and said they
had several insured. Unless something has changed since I spoke to them a
month or so ago I am expecting the insurance costs to be the same. Really,
there is nothing experimental about an engine built from all PMA parts. JR
Message 33
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|
| Subject: | Re: superior engine quote |
--> RV-List message posted by: "lucky macy" <luckymacy@hotmail.com>
Probably right here in the archives on the different lists and on news
groups.
>From: Scott Brumbelow <csbrumbelow@fedex.com>
>Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: superior engine quote
>Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 14:16:08 -0600
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Brumbelow <csbrumbelow@fedex.com>
>
>Interesting - I've heard nothing but good things about the Ellison.
>Nonetheless,
>some of the reasons for my choice are below:
>
> 1) capable of inverted flight (you have to remain at positive g's with
>a
>standard carb, because of the float - there is no float with the Ellison)
> 2) simplicity
> 3) better fuel performance
> 4) smoother running engine
>
>Again, my individual choice was between the Ellison and a standard carb.
>Much of
>my "opinion" was formed based on a fellow pilot friend who used to be my
>safety
>in aerobatics. This guy is simply the best pilot I have flown with, and has
>years of experience flying many different aircraft. He has owned a couple
>of
>Pitts, an RV 4, a Yak, etc., etc., and also had a lot of pilot friends
>along the
>way. Based on his experience - and that of any of his friends that had the
>Ellison - it came highly recommended.
>
>For what it is worth, America's Aircraft Engines - who had never SEEN an
>Ellison
>Throttle Body before - called me at one point to specifically tell me how
>easy
>the engine was to set up with the Ellison, and how with the Ellison my
>engine
>was the smoothest running engine they had had in their shop.
>
>Again, the most critical factor for me was the desire for the capability of
>inverted flight. The Ellison was a much more economical alternative than
>"standard" fuel injection. Plus, part of the endorsement mentioned above
>included a couple of people who had actually replaced fuel injection
>systems
>with the Ellison.
>
>For what it is worth...
>
>OBTW, where have you read/heard the negative comments about the Ellison?
>
>Scott Memphis
>RV-8A
>
>
>lucky macy wrote:
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "lucky macy" <luckymacy@hotmail.com>
> >
> > Man, at the risk of getting sidetracked, I have a question on your
>selection
> > of Ellison Throttle Body. I've read/heard mostly negative opinions
>about
> > this system. But I have an open mind. What are the pros and cons of
>this
> > vs. standard carb and fuel injection? Have they gone through a redesign
> > over time? A dad I know who lost his only son in an experiment crash
>blames
> > this carb but that was many years ago...
> >
> > thanks,
> > lucky
> >
> > >From: Scott Brumbelow <csbrumbelow@fedex.com>
> > >Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com
> > >To: rv-list@matronics.com
> > >Subject: Re: RV-List: superior engine quote
> > >Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 10:03:42 -0600
> > >
> > >--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Brumbelow <csbrumbelow@fedex.com>
> > >
> > >The engines and prices from Superior are "new"...
> > >
> > >For what it is worth, I took delivery of my O-360 B1A2 a couple of
>months
> > >ago.
> > >Superior offered me the choice of having Aerosport Power, America's
> > >Aircraft
> > >Engines, or Mattituck do the build. I chose America's Aircraft Engines
> > >primarily
> > >because I had talked to them at Oshkosh, I had seen them build one up
>at
> > >one of
> > >the forum, and their shipping was going to be cheaper than AeroSport.
> > >Mattituck
> > >got ruled out while I was at Oshkosh. Anyway, Superior and America's
>worked
> > >with
> > >me on getting an Ellison Throttle Body installed - Superior kept the
>carb
> > >and
> > >gave me credit, and America's built up and test ran the engine with the
> > >Ellison.
> > >
> > >The workmanship seems to be outstanding, and everyone I dealt with at
> > >Superior
> > >and America's was super. America's was particularly good at keeping me
> > >informed
> > >regarding status, etc. Needless to say, I am (so far) please with my
> > >decision.
> > >
> > >Scott in Memphis
> > >RV-8A
> > >
> > >
> > >RV8ter@aol.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > --> RV-List message posted by: RV8ter@aol.com
> > > >
> > > > The letter does not appear to state. It says built with new
>millennium
> > > > cylinders in accordance with superior air parts...with all new FAA
> > >approved
> > > > parts. Each engine comes with a 3 year warranty or Manufacturer's
> > > > recommended TBO, whichever occurs first.
> > > >
> > > > I guess that would imply rebuild?
> > > >
> > > > In a message dated 1/19/2003 8:26:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> > > > dlndqst@optonline.net writes:
> > > >
> > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: David Lundquist
><dlndqst@optonline.net>
> > > > >
> > > > > Maybe I'm missing the obvious, but are the Superior engines you
>were
> > >quoted
> > > > > factory NEW or ReMan? They sound too low for factory new.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dave Lundquist
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance |
Rates
--> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
John,
Interesting information. Here's a few questions which come to mind:
1. Do any of the companies you work with write policies for Superior
engines? If so, how much more are you talking about?
2. What about Aerosport Power (Bart) non-Lycoming lycoming engines?
There are a bunch of them out in the field, are any of them insured
with you? How do the companies look at them?
3. If memory serves, you stated during a previous thread about subaru
engines that you would be able to write policies for RVs with the
Eggenfeller subaru package. Is this with the same companies which will
not write a policy on a Superior engine? Could you please clarify this.
Jeff Point
RV-6 finish kit
this morning I was two weeks away from writing a check for a Superior
engine, now not so sure.
Milwaukee WI
>
>There are companies that will write coverage for RV's with the superior
>engines, but their rates are higher. So, if Falcon told you there was no
>difference, they either didn't know what they are talking about, or they
>lied, or they were planning on not informing the company about the engine
>(which would void your coverage, but you'd have a pretty good case against
>them.)
>
>
>
Message 35
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|
| Subject: | Re: Prop Questions |
--> RV-List message posted by: "RV6 Flyer" <rv6_flyer@hotmail.com>
There is a Glasair II with a IO-360 flying locally with a NEW Hartzell prop
that has an EXPERIMENTAL new Hartzell blade on it. It is EXPERIMENTAL and I
have not taked to the owner since he SWITCHED his old Hartzell off the
airplane.
Was told that Hartzell has not finished testing. They gave his 10:1
compression,1- lightspeed igniton engine a 1,900 - 2,300 RPM yellow arc so
that has not gone away at this time.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Gary A. Sobek
"My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell,
1,244 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA
http://SoCAL_WVAF.rvproject.com
----Original Message Follows----
From: JRWillJR@aol.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: Prop Questions
--> RV-List message posted by: JRWillJR@aol.com
This is just a guess, I suspect Hartzell is working on a blade with a
different twist in the blades that will optimize it for the speed range at
which RV aircraft fly. I have been told by numerous knowledgeable people and
I think articles in the RVator that the current prop, while excellent was
still not optimal. That is just a guess and I figure Hartzell will not say
anything about it 'till they actually decide to produce it, finish
certifying
it or whatever. Do Not Archive. JR
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
Message 36
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|
| Subject: | Re: Prop Questions |
--> RV-List message posted by: LeastDrag93066@aol.com
Hi All,
I believe a 2000 to 2300 RPM yellow arc is normal for a CS propeller on an
undampen crankshaft Lyc. 360 engine.
Jim Ayers
Message 37
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| Subject: | Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insur |
ance Rates
--> RV-List message posted by: mstewart@qa.butler.com
Nothing like straight forward talk from an insurance guy.
Thanks JT for keeping an eye on the list and helping us out every once in a
while.
Anyone notice that JT is always paying attention to this insurance stuff to
help us when needed. Nice to see since for 99% of us, insurance is an
expensive mystery.
Mike Stewart
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: John Helms [mailto:jhelms@i1.net]
Subject: Re: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines &
Insurance Rates
--> RV-List message posted by: "John Helms" <jhelms@i1.net>
First of all, Falcon is a broker like NationAir. We brokers don't set the
rates. We both deal with the exact same companies. The companies that are
the most competitive on RV's with Lycomings (Phoenix and AIG) will not write
coverage for the Superior engines.
There are companies that will write coverage for RV's with the superior
engines, but their rates are higher. So, if Falcon told you there was no
difference, they either didn't know what they are talking about, or they
lied, or they were planning on not informing the company about the engine
(which would void your coverage, but you'd have a pretty good case against
them.)
Your statement will likely send those interested in those engines flooding
to Falcon for quotes (their intent) but when you get the quotes and are
disappointed (either because the rates are too high, or because you find out
it was too good to be true, and you paid for coverage you couldn't collect
on) you'll be sad. AIG is typically the most competitive company and they
have added the same type of wording to their online quote system (copied
directly from AIG's broker online system - Have there been any major
modifications to this aircraft including alterations to powerplant or
airframe that differs from the original manufacture or design?) Now, with
that question on there, if your broker answered "no" but you had other than
a Lyc. in your RV, you would have no coverage (again, you would have a case
against the broker, but you would have to prove that you informed them about
the engine type.)
Your post makes it sound as if I don't know what a Superior engine is. That
is not the case at all...as a matter of fact I have been trying to get
Phoenix to accept them for quite some time.
The two main issues are:
1. whether or not the engine manufacturer has products coverage. Products
coverage can potentially pay for claims if they result from engine failure.
Superior now has products coverage.
2. the number of engines out there. Normally, until there are several
hundred (500 or so, not 200) of the engines out there and installed, and the
companies can see how reliable they are, they won't write coverage for them,
or will charge more for it.
When the Van's Program started all parties (NationAir, Phoenix, and Van's)
agreed that it was best if the program was restricted to engines recommended
by Van's (Lycoming). This hasn't changed, and Van is not likely to start
recommending any other engines anytime soon. But, I am still hopeful that
with #1 above satisfied, and #2 increasing all the time, that eventually we
will be able to get them included as part of the program.
Desperately trying to get people to understand that their are brokers out
there that will tell you anything to get your business. (Even knowingly
deceive an insurance company voiding your coverage.)
John "JT" Helms
Branch Manager
NationAir Insurance Agency
Pleasure and Business Branch
----- Original Message -----
From: <JRWillJR@aol.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines &
Insurance Rates
--> RV-List message posted by: JRWillJR@aol.com
Mark, I spoke to several insurers including Falcon who I have my
"construction" insurance through. I was told that they will insure the
XP-360
engine as if it were a Lycoming. It is an "aviation" type engine is the
wording they used. I was also told a Subaru is not an "aviation" type
engine.
The insured cost was the same. If the company is not familiar with these
engines they may well quote a higher price just like they do with a Subaru.
The fellow I spoke with knew exactly what I was talking about and said they
had several insured. Unless something has changed since I spoke to them a
month or so ago I am expecting the insurance costs to be the same. Really,
there is nothing experimental about an engine built from all PMA parts. JR
Message 38
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|
| Subject: | Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance |
Rates
--> RV-List message posted by: "John Helms" <jhelms@i1.net>
1. Yes, some of the companies do write coverage for Superior engines. The
rates would likely be about 35% to 50% more than what you could get thru the
VanGuard program. (if you quote was $1500 thru the program with a Lycoming,
you could expect your premium to be about $2000 to $2250 elsewhere with a
Superior.)
2. Aerosport power engines - aren't those just remanufactured Lycomings?
Lycomings new, used, overhauled by an FBO, overhauled by you.... all would
be accepted as a Lycoming. I believe that in most cases a Superior Airparts
XP-360 is going to be a better engine than what Joe Airplane-builder could
produce in the way of his own overhauled Lycoming. (sorry Joe) This is one
of the main reasons I'd like to see them included.
3. No. None of the companies that are available will do Suburu engine
powered RV's (with one maybe). I specifically polled the companies about a
month ago. I did get an answer of "no, not usually, but send us the quote
request and we'll review it" from one company that is B+ rated. This was a
better response than I anticipated. AVEMCO, the direct writer, is still the
only company that will do the Suburu's.
John "JT" Helms
Branch Manager
NationAir Insurance Agency
Pleasure and Business Branch
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Point" <jpoint@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines &
Insurance Rates
--> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
John,
Interesting information. Here's a few questions which come to mind:
1. Do any of the companies you work with write policies for Superior
engines? If so, how much more are you talking about?
2. What about Aerosport Power (Bart) non-Lycoming lycoming engines?
There are a bunch of them out in the field, are any of them insured
with you? How do the companies look at them?
3. If memory serves, you stated during a previous thread about subaru
engines that you would be able to write policies for RVs with the
Eggenfeller subaru package. Is this with the same companies which will
not write a policy on a Superior engine? Could you please clarify this.
Jeff Point
RV-6 finish kit
this morning I was two weeks away from writing a check for a Superior
engine, now not so sure.
Milwaukee WI
>
>There are companies that will write coverage for RV's with the superior
>engines, but their rates are higher. So, if Falcon told you there was no
>difference, they either didn't know what they are talking about, or they
>lied, or they were planning on not informing the company about the engine
>(which would void your coverage, but you'd have a pretty good case against
>them.)
>
>
Message 39
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|
| Subject: | Re: Prop Questions |
--> RV-List message posted by: Laird Owens <owens@aerovironment.com>
If it's the Glasair that I think Gary is talking about, I saw it
yesterday at Furnace Creek. It has a BITCHEN looking simitar shape
to it. I wish I had gotten a picture of it. He's usually over at
Whiteman on Sunday afternoons. I'll have to get the scoop next week
(if he'll talk :-)
Laird
Do Not Archive
>--> RV-List message posted by: "RV6 Flyer" <rv6_flyer@hotmail.com>
>
>There is a Glasair II with a IO-360 flying locally with a NEW Hartzell prop
>that has an EXPERIMENTAL new Hartzell blade on it. It is EXPERIMENTAL and I
>have not taked to the owner since he SWITCHED his old Hartzell off the
>airplane.
>
>Was told that Hartzell has not finished testing. They gave his 10:1
>compression,1- lightspeed igniton engine a 1,900 - 2,300 RPM yellow arc so
>that has not gone away at this time.
>
>
>DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>Gary A. Sobek
>"My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell,
>1,244 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA
>http://SoCAL_WVAF.rvproject.com
>
>
>----Original Message Follows----
>From: JRWillJR@aol.com
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Prop Questions
>Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:13:20 EST
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: JRWillJR@aol.com
>
>This is just a guess, I suspect Hartzell is working on a blade with a
>different twist in the blades that will optimize it for the speed range at
>which RV aircraft fly. I have been told by numerous knowledgeable people and
>I think articles in the RVator that the current prop, while excellent was
>still not optimal. That is just a guess and I figure Hartzell will not say
>anything about it 'till they actually decide to produce it, finish
>certifying
>it or whatever. Do Not Archive. JR
>
>
>The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
>
>
Message 40
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|
| Subject: | Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insur |
ance Rates
--> RV-List message posted by: "John Helms" <jhelms@i1.net>
Thanks for your encouragement. If anyone ever has a question, feel free to
ask. I am usually online every working day.
I can't give specific advice regarding your individual coverages unless I
write the policy. But, I will certainly help if I can.
JT
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: <mstewart@qa.butler.com>
Subject: RE: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insur
ance Rates
--> RV-List message posted by: mstewart@qa.butler.com
Nothing like straight forward talk from an insurance guy.
Thanks JT for keeping an eye on the list and helping us out every once in a
while.
Anyone notice that JT is always paying attention to this insurance stuff to
help us when needed. Nice to see since for 99% of us, insurance is an
expensive mystery.
Mike Stewart
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: John Helms [mailto:jhelms@i1.net]
Subject: Re: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines &
Insurance Rates
--> RV-List message posted by: "John Helms" <jhelms@i1.net>
First of all, Falcon is a broker like NationAir. We brokers don't set the
rates. We both deal with the exact same companies. The companies that are
the most competitive on RV's with Lycomings (Phoenix and AIG) will not write
coverage for the Superior engines.
There are companies that will write coverage for RV's with the superior
engines, but their rates are higher. So, if Falcon told you there was no
difference, they either didn't know what they are talking about, or they
lied, or they were planning on not informing the company about the engine
(which would void your coverage, but you'd have a pretty good case against
them.)
Your statement will likely send those interested in those engines flooding
to Falcon for quotes (their intent) but when you get the quotes and are
disappointed (either because the rates are too high, or because you find out
it was too good to be true, and you paid for coverage you couldn't collect
on) you'll be sad. AIG is typically the most competitive company and they
have added the same type of wording to their online quote system (copied
directly from AIG's broker online system - Have there been any major
modifications to this aircraft including alterations to powerplant or
airframe that differs from the original manufacture or design?) Now, with
that question on there, if your broker answered "no" but you had other than
a Lyc. in your RV, you would have no coverage (again, you would have a case
against the broker, but you would have to prove that you informed them about
the engine type.)
Your post makes it sound as if I don't know what a Superior engine is. That
is not the case at all...as a matter of fact I have been trying to get
Phoenix to accept them for quite some time.
The two main issues are:
1. whether or not the engine manufacturer has products coverage. Products
coverage can potentially pay for claims if they result from engine failure.
Superior now has products coverage.
2. the number of engines out there. Normally, until there are several
hundred (500 or so, not 200) of the engines out there and installed, and the
companies can see how reliable they are, they won't write coverage for them,
or will charge more for it.
When the Van's Program started all parties (NationAir, Phoenix, and Van's)
agreed that it was best if the program was restricted to engines recommended
by Van's (Lycoming). This hasn't changed, and Van is not likely to start
recommending any other engines anytime soon. But, I am still hopeful that
with #1 above satisfied, and #2 increasing all the time, that eventually we
will be able to get them included as part of the program.
Desperately trying to get people to understand that their are brokers out
there that will tell you anything to get your business. (Even knowingly
deceive an insurance company voiding your coverage.)
John "JT" Helms
Branch Manager
NationAir Insurance Agency
Pleasure and Business Branch
----- Original Message -----
From: <JRWillJR@aol.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines &
Insurance Rates
--> RV-List message posted by: JRWillJR@aol.com
Mark, I spoke to several insurers including Falcon who I have my
"construction" insurance through. I was told that they will insure the
XP-360
engine as if it were a Lycoming. It is an "aviation" type engine is the
wording they used. I was also told a Subaru is not an "aviation" type
engine.
The insured cost was the same. If the company is not familiar with these
engines they may well quote a higher price just like they do with a Subaru.
The fellow I spoke with knew exactly what I was talking about and said they
had several insured. Unless something has changed since I spoke to them a
month or so ago I am expecting the insurance costs to be the same. Really,
there is nothing experimental about an engine built from all PMA parts. JR
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: Prop Questions |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Konrad Werner" <Connywerner@wans.net>
Laird,
What do you mean by . . . IF HE'LL TALK?
There are different ways to MAKE HIM TALK !!
Konrad
And please, Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Laird Owens" <owens@aerovironment.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Prop Questions
> --> RV-List message posted by: Laird Owens <owens@aerovironment.com>
>
> If it's the Glasair that I think Gary is talking about, I saw it
> yesterday at Furnace Creek. It has a BITCHEN looking simitar shape
> to it. I wish I had gotten a picture of it. He's usually over at
> Whiteman on Sunday afternoons. I'll have to get the scoop next week
> (if he'll talk :-)
>
> Laird
>
> Do Not Archive
>
> >--> RV-List message posted by: "RV6 Flyer" <rv6_flyer@hotmail.com>
> >
> >There is a Glasair II with a IO-360 flying locally with a NEW Hartzell
prop
> >that has an EXPERIMENTAL new Hartzell blade on it. It is EXPERIMENTAL
and I
> >have not taked to the owner since he SWITCHED his old Hartzell off the
> >airplane.
> >
> >Was told that Hartzell has not finished testing. They gave his 10:1
> >compression,1- lightspeed igniton engine a 1,900 - 2,300 RPM yellow arc
so
> >that has not gone away at this time.
> >
> >
> >DO NOT ARCHIVE
> >
> >Gary A. Sobek
> >"My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell,
> >1,244 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA
> >http://SoCAL_WVAF.rvproject.com
> >
> >
> >----Original Message Follows----
> >From: JRWillJR@aol.com
> >To: rv-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Re: RV-List: Prop Questions
> >Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:13:20 EST
> >
> >--> RV-List message posted by: JRWillJR@aol.com
> >
> >This is just a guess, I suspect Hartzell is working on a blade with a
> >different twist in the blades that will optimize it for the speed range
at
> >which RV aircraft fly. I have been told by numerous knowledgeable people
and
> >I think articles in the RVator that the current prop, while excellent was
> >still not optimal. That is just a guess and I figure Hartzell will not
say
> >anything about it 'till they actually decide to produce it, finish
> >certifying
> >it or whatever. Do Not Archive. JR
> >
> >
> >The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
> >
> >
>
>
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance |
Rates
--> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
Actually, he sells rebuilt Lycomings as well as his own, all brand new
parts engines. He is getting away from the remans and favoring new
engines since the o-360 cores are getting more $$$. His new engines use
all Superior parts (or whatever you specify) and are basically an
XP-360, but with an Aerosport Power o-360 date plate, not Lycomingor
Superior. This is what he told me at Oshkosh last year.
Anyone out there who has an RV with an Aerosport engine (new or reman'd)
I'd really like to know what your experience getting insurance was, ie.
where and how much? I am planning to order an Aerosport engine in a
couple of weeks, but this is causing me to rethink it. I know many
others are considering the XP-360 so this topic may be of great interest.
Jeff Point
RV-6 finish kit
Milwaukee WI
>2. Aerosport power engines - aren't those just remanufactured Lycomings?
>Lycomings new, used, overhauled by an FBO, overhauled by you.... all would
>be accepted as a Lycoming. I believe that in most cases a Superior Airparts
>XP-360 is going to be a better engine than what Joe Airplane-builder could
>produce in the way of his own overhauled Lycoming. (sorry Joe) This is one
>of the main reasons I'd like to see them included.
>
>
>
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: <test> do not archive |
--> RV-List message posted by: "David Carter" <dcarter@datarecall.net>
test - DO NOT ARCHIVE
(configuring e-mail settings after change of DSL provider)
David Carter
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance |
Rates
--> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Pardue" <n5lp@carlsbad.net>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
>
>
> Anyone out there who has an RV with an Aerosport engine (new or reman'd)
> I'd really like to know what your experience getting insurance was, ie.
> where and how much? I am planning to order an Aerosport engine in a
> couple of weeks, but this is causing me to rethink it. I know many
> others are considering the XP-360 so this topic may be of great interest.
>
I have an Aerosport Power engine. It is not a Lycoming and it is not
certified. It is an Aerosport Power with Lycoming parts. I recommend Bart
Lalonde and his engines most highly. They don't come better.
I have my insurance through Scott (Sky) Smith. He shops it around each
year. It is cheap and was no problem to get.
Larry Pardue
Carlsbad, NM
RV-6 N441LP Flying
http://www.carlsbadnm.com/n5lp/index.htm
Message 45
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|
| Subject: | Re: Taylor Pneumatic Tools |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Streit <wooody98@directvinternet.com>
I have several Taylor tools and I'm very satisfied with all of them
Bert Penney wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Bert Penney" <van@entechnos.com>
>
> Thanks for your replies, Bill and Brad. I will place them in the list
> of contenders.
>
> Bert
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Irvine [mailto:wgirvine@yahoo.com]
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV-List: Taylor Pneumatic Tools
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Bill Irvine <wgirvine@yahoo.com>
>
> > As a result of email conversations on this list, I
> > was able to find a local tool supplier. However,
> > the only pneumatic tool line they carry is Taylor.
> > I have no experience with these at all and was
> > wondering if anyone else has any recommendations on
> > this line.
>
> I got the Taylor 90 and 45 degree air drills from
> Avery several years ago. Love 'em, great tools. I
> highly recommend them.
>
> Bill
>
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance |
Rates
--> RV-List message posted by: "John Helms" <jhelms@i1.net>
Jeff,
I would caveat any answers you get back by saying... the insurance company
may or may not know what the engine is.
I am as guilty as any other agent. Stuff changes in the homebuilt world
fairly fast. I was not aware until today that Aerosport was building
Superior engines (for example.)
I may very well insure some of those engines, while having turned away
someone who presented it as a Superior engine.
I guess what I am saying is that (whether thru error, or intentional
deceipt) it is very important for you (the insured) to know if the insurance
company wants to insure that type of engine or not. If not, then you could
be paying for insurance that you won't (or will have difficulty) collect
upon. You want to be as upfront as possible with them. No need to pay for
something you would not get the benefit of, or have to fight to get.
To ease some minds out there - Phoenix, who underwrites the VanGuard
Program, paid a total loss with passenger liability out this year on an
aircraft that had a Chevy engine in it. That is not an engine that they
will knowingly cover today, but we didn't used to ask the question. We nor
they had any clue that it was powered by a Chevy. They paid the loss. Had
they found out before he had that engine they likely would have just let the
policy expire at it's natural end, and not renewed it.
Basically, the application's question of "Does the airplane have any
modifications not provided by the manufacturer?" or something to that effect
would come to be at issue. The insurance companies consider Van's Aircraft
to be the manufacturer (I know many of you consider yourselves to be such,
but that is not important.) What is important is what could be
supported/proven in court. (because it could get to that point if they were
to deny a claim.)
JT
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Point" <jpoint@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines &
Insurance Rates
--> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
Actually, he sells rebuilt Lycomings as well as his own, all brand new
parts engines. He is getting away from the remans and favoring new
engines since the o-360 cores are getting more $$$. His new engines use
all Superior parts (or whatever you specify) and are basically an
XP-360, but with an Aerosport Power o-360 date plate, not Lycomingor
Superior. This is what he told me at Oshkosh last year.
Anyone out there who has an RV with an Aerosport engine (new or reman'd)
I'd really like to know what your experience getting insurance was, ie.
where and how much? I am planning to order an Aerosport engine in a
couple of weeks, but this is causing me to rethink it. I know many
others are considering the XP-360 so this topic may be of great interest.
Jeff Point
RV-6 finish kit
Milwaukee WI
>2. Aerosport power engines - aren't those just remanufactured Lycomings?
>Lycomings new, used, overhauled by an FBO, overhauled by you.... all would
>be accepted as a Lycoming. I believe that in most cases a Superior
Airparts
>XP-360 is going to be a better engine than what Joe Airplane-builder could
>produce in the way of his own overhauled Lycoming. (sorry Joe) This is
one
>of the main reasons I'd like to see them included.
>
>
Message 47
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| Subject: | Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance |
Rates
--> RV-List message posted by: "John Helms" <jhelms@i1.net>
Larry,
Scott is an O.K agent, but AIG now has that wording on their online
applications (only been on their for a few months to combat an unscrupulous
agent that was getting quotes as RV-4's that were actually Harmon Rockets.)
But, I would think twice about renewing that with AIG without expressly
having Scott tell them about the engine and get their o.k.
JT
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Pardue" <n5lp@carlsbad.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines &
Insurance Rates
--> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Pardue" <n5lp@carlsbad.net>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
>
>
> Anyone out there who has an RV with an Aerosport engine (new or reman'd)
> I'd really like to know what your experience getting insurance was, ie.
> where and how much? I am planning to order an Aerosport engine in a
> couple of weeks, but this is causing me to rethink it. I know many
> others are considering the XP-360 so this topic may be of great interest.
>
I have an Aerosport Power engine. It is not a Lycoming and it is not
certified. It is an Aerosport Power with Lycoming parts. I recommend Bart
Lalonde and his engines most highly. They don't come better.
I have my insurance through Scott (Sky) Smith. He shops it around each
year. It is cheap and was no problem to get.
Larry Pardue
Carlsbad, NM
RV-6 N441LP Flying
http://www.carlsbadnm.com/n5lp/index.htm
Message 48
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| Subject: | Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance |
Rates
--> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Pardue" <n5lp@carlsbad.net>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "John Helms" <jhelms@i1.net>
>
> Larry,
>
> Scott is an O.K agent, but AIG now has that wording on their online
> applications (only been on their for a few months to combat an
unscrupulous
> agent that was getting quotes as RV-4's that were actually Harmon
Rockets.)
>
> But, I would think twice about renewing that with AIG without expressly
> having Scott tell them about the engine and get their o.k.
>
I guess I don't understand this. Each year I am sent a questionaire that
takes about 2 hours to fill out. It delves into my entire aviation history.
How many hours multiengine. How many hours glider. How many hours last six
months. How many total hours. How many airframe hours on my airplane? How
many engine hours on the Aerosport Power O-360 (listed as such)? How many
hours tailwheel? This is not enough? It seems to me that you are saying I
am supposed to deal with all the insurance companies my agent may use. How
am I supposed to even know who they even are?
Due dilligence requires I ask my agent, who has forgotten in the last 20
minutes more than I have ever known about insurance in my entire 53 years to
check with AIG? Who is AIG? Why am I paying my agent a commission if I am
supposed to know more than him? All the information is well documented. I
know he knows it because it comes back to me every year and if I should ever
have a claim it better be paid because I am abiding by the contract.
I am completely honest on everything I tell my agent, I expect he is the
same with the companies he deals with. I do not think I am negligent!
Larry Pardue
Carlsbad, NM
RV-6 N441LP Flying
http://www.carlsbadnm.com/n5lp/index.htm
Message 49
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| Subject: | Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance |
Rates
--> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
John,
This may be a silly question, but what if Van came out and "endorsed"
the XP-360 for RVs? With the ads he and Lycoming run that may not be
likely, but if he did, would it negate the problem you described below?
I and many others do appreciate the time you take to straighten us out
on these things.
Jeff Point
John Helms wrote:
>Basically, the application's question of "Does the airplane have any
>modifications not provided by the manufacturer?" or something to that effect
>would come to be at issue. The insurance companies consider Van's Aircraft
>to be the manufacturer (I know many of you consider yourselves to be such,
>but that is not important.) What is important is what could be
>supported/proven in court. (because it could get to that point if they were
>to deny a claim.)
>
>
>
Message 50
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| Subject: | Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance |
Rates
--> RV-List message posted by: "John Helms" <jhelms@i1.net>
AIG is the primary market that Scott uses, especially for RV's. I am
assuming that AIG is your insurance company.
AIG just this year has (as I said) included on their online quote request
that brokers fill out to get you the quote the question about engine type.
I am just saying that I would make absolutely sure that this year you ask
the question. I am not saying you haven't done your due diligence, nor am I
saying that about Scott. I am just making a suggestion. Especially if your
policy is written thru AIG. (by the way you can tell who your insurance
company is by reading your policy... they're identified on the policy,
because that is who issues it.)
JT
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Pardue" <n5lp@carlsbad.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines &
Insurance Rates
--> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Pardue" <n5lp@carlsbad.net>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "John Helms" <jhelms@i1.net>
>
> Larry,
>
> Scott is an O.K agent, but AIG now has that wording on their online
> applications (only been on their for a few months to combat an
unscrupulous
> agent that was getting quotes as RV-4's that were actually Harmon
Rockets.)
>
> But, I would think twice about renewing that with AIG without expressly
> having Scott tell them about the engine and get their o.k.
>
I guess I don't understand this. Each year I am sent a questionaire that
takes about 2 hours to fill out. It delves into my entire aviation history.
How many hours multiengine. How many hours glider. How many hours last six
months. How many total hours. How many airframe hours on my airplane? How
many engine hours on the Aerosport Power O-360 (listed as such)? How many
hours tailwheel? This is not enough? It seems to me that you are saying I
am supposed to deal with all the insurance companies my agent may use. How
am I supposed to even know who they even are?
Due dilligence requires I ask my agent, who has forgotten in the last 20
minutes more than I have ever known about insurance in my entire 53 years to
check with AIG? Who is AIG? Why am I paying my agent a commission if I am
supposed to know more than him? All the information is well documented. I
know he knows it because it comes back to me every year and if I should ever
have a claim it better be paid because I am abiding by the contract.
I am completely honest on everything I tell my agent, I expect he is the
same with the companies he deals with. I do not think I am negligent!
Larry Pardue
Carlsbad, NM
RV-6 N441LP Flying
http://www.carlsbadnm.com/n5lp/index.htm
Message 51
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| Subject: | Need a Battery (long, boring, please respond anyway) |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright" <kyle.boatright@adelphia.net>
Thanks to all who replied on and off-list to my battery question from yesterday.
After a review of the spec's for both Concorde's and Odyssey's offerings, I'm
still confused on which battery will provide the best cranking performance.
The problem is that the two manufacturers do not publish directly comparable
performance specifications.
For instance, Concorde publishes instantaneous cranking power after 0.3 seconds
of cranking. They also publish cranking power after 15 seconds. These tests
are conducted without letting voltage drop below 1/2 the battery's nominal voltage.
The output data is given at 3 different temperatures.
In contrast, Odyssey publishes output after 5 and 30 seconds of cranking time,
with the 5 second time only given at 80F, and the 30 second readings at 0F and
32F.
Here's some data:
Data at 32F:
The Concorde RG-25 provides 1254 cranking amps after 0.3 seconds and 250A after
15 seconds at 32F.
The RG-25 XC provides 536A after 0.3 seconds and 375A after 15 seconds. (interesting
that it provides much less up-front power than its sibling but significantly
more power at the end of 15 seconds).
The Odyssey PC 680 provides 300A after 30 seconds, but no initial output amperage
is given.
At higher temperatures (74F for the Concordes, and 80F for the Odyssey), the data
is:
RG-25 - 1278A at 0.3 seconds, 508A after 15 seconds.
RG-25XL - 846A at 0.3 seconds, 597A after 15 seconds.
PC-680 - 680A after 5 seconds. No data for 15 or 30 seconds.
Conclusions/Opinions - (Feel free to offer a different interpretation).
The RG-25 is the sprinter of the bunch. It offers the highest initial power, but
drops off rapidly. If you are looking to spin a propeller fast RIGHT NOW, this
is the battery for you.
It is more difficult to compare the PC-680 and the RG25XC, but my eyeball analysis
says the PC-680 may have an advantage in starting performance.
Some other things to consider are that the PC-680 is 9 pounds lighter than the
RG25XC and 8 pounds lighter than the RG-25. The PC-680 is a 16AH battery, and
the others are 25AH. Depending on the retailer, the Concordes are generally less
expensive than the PC-680.
Comments appreciated. My objective is to find the battery that is most likely to
give me a no-hassle start on a 30F morning. As some have suggested, I could
lay out a total of about $500 for a lightweight starter and a steel flywheel
ring. This would improve my starting performance over the Prestolite and keep
the CG where it needs to be. However, I'd rather spend $100 on a battery if
that would achieve my goal.
Side note... After sitting 3 weeks, the 3 year old RG-25XC spewed enough electrons
to crank the engine (reluctantly) on the first try this evening. I think
the 50F+ temperatures had something to do with it.
KB
Message 52
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| Subject: | Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance |
Rates
--> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
John, I was following your logic for a while but it is now getting
somewhat hazy. :-)
If I understand your position (and I suppose the position of insurance
companies if you have accurately reflected their stance on this subject)
a Lycoming engine is only a Lycoming (and therefore insurable) if the
data plate on the engine states Lycoming as the manufacturer.
You may not be aware of this, but many, many "Lycoming" engines in RVs
have no data plate, or a plate that has the aircraft builder's name as
the manufacturer. This is because the FARs do not require the "Lycoming"
plate on the engines of experimental aircraft, and many experimental
"Lycoming" engines are built out of a mixture of parts off the shelf of
a homebuilder or engine rebuilder wherein traceability or logability of
the components is impossible. If tracibilty of the components of the
engine is impossible, and a data plate is not present, the FAA does not
recognize the engine as a Lycoming.
Are you stating that the RV builder who possessed such an engine in
his/her RV is in danger of non-payment should a claim arise? If the
answer is yes, then just how is a "Lycoming" engine defined? Is it one
that has a data plate and valid logs traceable back to the factory, in
other words, a "certificated" engine? Or, is it one that merely "looks"
like a certificated Lycoming engine?
And if merely looking like a certificated engine is sufficient, then
what is the difference in the data-plateless engine I build in my
carport (similar to the hundreds of engines currently in RVs) and the
hundreds of engines built by Aerosport which has a non-Lycoming
dataplate?
If indeed this is the angle the insurance companies are taking, this is
a can of worms the bottom of which we will never find! You are now
placing RV builders in the position of stating that their engine must
meet a "standard", and we don't even know the parameters of the
standard!
What is the definition of "any major modifications to this aircraft
including alterations to powerplant or airframe that differs from the
original manufacture or design?" Does the inclusion of electronic
ignition which Lycoming has not blessed qualify as a "major
modification"? What about a fuel injection system such as the highly
popular Airflow Performance system?
Or......if Vans, who you say the insurance company considers as the
manufacturer, decides to install electronic ignitions, fuel injection
systems, four into two exhaust systems, high compression pistons, and a
different cam profile in their demonstrator planes, does that then clear
us for using the same or similar components in our planes with full
insurance coverage?
Does Vans know they are the manufacturer of our planes and are now
liable for any damage we manage to inflict on our passengers or other
people's property?
John, I appreciate your input on this subject. I suspect the
experimental community has moved much faster and farther toward
custom-built "Lycoming" engines than you and the insurance industry
realize. If the industry is now qualifying just what is and what isn't
an insurable Lycoming engine.........we need to see a WRITTEN set of
standards!
Respectfully,
Sam Buchanan
==================================
Larry Pardue wrote:
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Pardue" <n5lp@carlsbad.net>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "John Helms" <jhelms@i1.net>
> >
> > Larry,
> >
> > Scott is an O.K agent, but AIG now has that wording on their online
> > applications (only been on their for a few months to combat an
> unscrupulous
> > agent that was getting quotes as RV-4's that were actually Harmon
> Rockets.)
> >
> > But, I would think twice about renewing that with AIG without expressly
> > having Scott tell them about the engine and get their o.k.
> >
>
> I guess I don't understand this. Each year I am sent a questionaire that
> takes about 2 hours to fill out. It delves into my entire aviation history.
> How many hours multiengine. How many hours glider. How many hours last six
> months. How many total hours. How many airframe hours on my airplane? How
> many engine hours on the Aerosport Power O-360 (listed as such)? How many
> hours tailwheel? This is not enough? It seems to me that you are saying I
> am supposed to deal with all the insurance companies my agent may use. How
> am I supposed to even know who they even are?
>
> Due dilligence requires I ask my agent, who has forgotten in the last 20
> minutes more than I have ever known about insurance in my entire 53 years to
> check with AIG? Who is AIG? Why am I paying my agent a commission if I am
> supposed to know more than him? All the information is well documented. I
> know he knows it because it comes back to me every year and if I should ever
> have a claim it better be paid because I am abiding by the contract.
>
> I am completely honest on everything I tell my agent, I expect he is the
> same with the companies he deals with. I do not think I am negligent!
>
> Larry Pardue
> Carlsbad, NM
Message 53
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| Subject: | Re: >Re:Engine transducer question (Probably Dumb ) |
--> RV-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com
The only dumb question - is the one you don't ask !
As Cy said , the transducer doesn't care whch way. The transducer shouldn't
be mounted directly on the engine though. Tha weight and vibration might
break it . Use a proper hose , with a restrictor fitting, to the transducer
and mount it to the engine mount,firewall,etc.
do not archive
Bob Olds A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor
RV-4 , N1191X , Flying Now
Charleston, Arkansas
"Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers"
Message 54
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| Subject: | >Re; Need a battery - Cy , note |
--> RV-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com
Cy ;
My lawnmower is a 1951 Farmall Super 'A' tractor , doesn't take much to crank
it over and if it doesn't start - I'm still at home .
Thanx for comment.
do not archive
Bob Olds A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor
RV-4 , N1191X , Flying Now
Charleston, Arkansas
"Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers"
Message 55
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| Subject: | Re: Need a Battery (long, boring, please respond anyway) |
--> RV-List message posted by: Denis Walsh <denis.walsh@attbi.com>
OK here's my response. My field test is as follows: I've run the RG 25,
several garden tractor batteries, and the PC 625. The Odyssey cranks
faster hot or cold. It also has a lot less internal resistance (I think).
Anyway it will go weeks and weeks without losing very much capacity.
Conversely, due to odyssey's lower overall capacity, I finally disconnected
my electronic Tach from the direct battery bus, as it was draining down the
Battery a volt or two after a few weeks! This was not normally a problem
for me since I fly a couple times a week; however I noticed it during our
9/11 stand down.
For my VFR flying the PC 625 is perfect. For someone else, who may need a
bigger reserve if the alternator crumps, it may not have enough reserve. I
figure it should last me three hours minimum under reduced load.
I have flight checked its ability to power the master switch items, with
t&B and master solenoid on for a two hour lunch period and still have 12V.
At around $80 it is comparable in price, lasts longer, is lighter. I like
it!
All in all I feel that in my field test the Odyssey is the big winner for my
purposes. My 625 has been in service for two years and still is very
strong. This was not the case for the concorde and certainly not for the
tractor batteries.
I have a standard compression O-360, and a sky tec starter. I crank up the
plane several hundred times per year. Average 180 hours with lots of short
hops.
Denis
Message 56
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| Subject: | Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance |
Rates
--> RV-List message posted by: "Stephen Johnson" <spjohnsn@ix.netcom.com>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Buchanan" <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines &
Insurance Rates
> --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
>
> John, I was following your logic for a while but it is now getting
> somewhat hazy. :-)
>
> If I understand your position (and I suppose the position of insurance
> companies if you have accurately reflected their stance on this subject)
> a Lycoming engine is only a Lycoming (and therefore insurable) if the
> data plate on the engine states Lycoming as the manufacturer.
>
stuff deleted
>
> John, I appreciate your input on this subject. I suspect the
> experimental community has moved much faster and farther toward
> custom-built "Lycoming" engines than you and the insurance industry
> realize. If the industry is now qualifying just what is and what isn't
> an insurable Lycoming engine.........we need to see a WRITTEN set of
> standards!
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Sam Buchanan
>
As some of you may know, the entire insurance industry is in some turmoil
right now. I suspect that the insurance companies are trying to figure out
a way to effectively raise rates through a back door technique. Whatever
the insurance policy is today can easily change next year. It does seem to
me that they need to define exactly what they mean by major engine
modification. I will be converting my new Lycoming IO-360-A1B6 with a
Christen system to inverted operation. The engine will then be exactly
equivalent to the AEIO-360-A1B6. This is a modification which turns one
certificated engine into another flavor of certificated engine. I'm not an
A&P.
Steve Johnson
RV-8 fuslage stage
Message 57
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| Subject: | Re: I'd like to fly in an RV somewhere around Seattle, WA |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dr. Leathers" <DrLeathers@822heal.com>
Josh,
Let me know it you want to go to Pltd to visit Vans. I've been meaning to do
it myself. Maybe we can ride down together.
DOC
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joshua Siler" <joshs@ninatek.com>
Subject: RE: RV-List: I'd like to fly in an RV somewhere around Seattle, WA
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Joshua Siler" <joshs@ninatek.com>
>
> If you can't find a ride, just jump down to Van's in Portland. They give
> first rides in the factory demonstrators there, and you can check out
> the factory at the same time.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rv7a
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV-List: I'd like to fly in an RV somewhere around Seattle, WA
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: rv7a <rv7a@prosody.org>
>
>
> I'm considering building an RV-7A.
> I fly out of Boeing Field - got my PPL in November.
>
> I saw an RV flying out of 0S9 yesterday - cool.
> I like what I see in the RVs.
> But I don't want to commit without flying in one.
>
> Can any of you PNW RV flyers give me a ride?
>
> Please let me know.
>
> Thanks, Joe Edwards
>
>
Message 58
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| Subject: | Re: Using cork with Proseal - was "Fuel Lube" |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Randall Henderson" <randallh@attbi.com>
[snip]
> I took the precaution of putting caps on all the nut-plates, sealed
> with proseal, to prevent fuel weeping down the screw threads.
[...]
Good idea but not really needed. Others have reported that they used sealed
nutplates which also seem like a good idea but IMHO not worth bothering
with. Proseal works fine on its own -- it gets in the threads when you put
the screws in, and if you also put some around the hole before putting the
screws in, it'll seal the heads as well. Still concerned? Smear it over the
screw heads.
Randall Henderson, RV-6 N6R (~450 hrs)
Portland, OR
www.vanshomewing.org
Message 59
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--> RV-List message posted by: WPAerial@aol.com
i need help in sewing the inter pannel in seats. how to keep them flat in
the bottom of the seat and not stretch across the middle.
jerry wilken
RV6A N699WP
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