---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 01/20/03: 59 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:23 AM - Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates (Steffensen Mark (swr1mas)) 2. 05:28 AM - 6A Tow Bar... (KAKlewin@aol.com) 3. 05:53 AM - Re: 6A Tow Bar... (Carl Froehlich) 4. 05:55 AM - Re: Need a battery (Elsa & Henry) 5. 06:09 AM - Re: Need a battery (Rick Jory) 6. 06:58 AM - Re: [ Fred Stucklen ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Charles Rowbotham) 7. 07:08 AM - 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall (Gannon, Terence) 8. 07:25 AM - Re: 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall (Bruce Gray) 9. 07:36 AM - Re: 6A Tow Bar... (Elsa & Henry) 10. 08:04 AM - Re: superior engine quote (Scott Brumbelow) 11. 08:31 AM - Re: superior engine quote (lucky macy) 12. 08:31 AM - Re: 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall (thomas a. sargent) 13. 09:00 AM - Re: Taylor Pneumatic Tools (Bert Penney) 14. 09:09 AM - Re: 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall (Rick Jory) 15. 09:34 AM - Re: 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall (Cy Galley) 16. 09:41 AM - I'd like to fly in an RV somewhere around Seattle, WA (rv7a) 17. 09:51 AM - Re: 6A Tow Bar... (Craig Warner) 18. 09:54 AM - Re: 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall (Craig Warner) 19. 10:31 AM - Re: external speaker (Keith and Jean Williams) 20. 10:49 AM - Re: external speaker (Gary Bataller) 21. 10:50 AM - Engine transducer question (probably dumb) (HCRV6@aol.com) 22. 10:50 AM - Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates (JRWillJR@aol.com) 23. 11:04 AM - Re: Need a battery (Charlie & Tupper England) 24. 11:04 AM - Re: I'd like to fly in an RV somewhere around Seattle, WA (Joshua Siler) 25. 11:19 AM - Re: 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall (Ross Mickey) 26. 11:39 AM - Re: external speaker (mstewart@qa.butler.com) 27. 11:45 AM - Re: Engine transducer question (probably dumb) (Cy Galley) 28. 11:51 AM - Re: I'd like to fly in an RV somewhere around Seattle, WA (Ross Schlotthauer) 29. 12:00 PM - Re: Need a battery (Doug Gray) 30. 12:14 PM - Re: Prop Questions (JRWillJR@aol.com) 31. 12:16 PM - Re: superior engine quote (Scott Brumbelow) 32. 12:25 PM - Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates (John Helms) 33. 12:42 PM - Re: superior engine quote (lucky macy) 34. 12:51 PM - Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance (Jeff Point) 35. 12:57 PM - Re: Prop Questions (RV6 Flyer) 36. 01:15 PM - Re: Prop Questions (LeastDrag93066@aol.com) 37. 01:27 PM - Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insur (mstewart@qa.butler.com) 38. 01:35 PM - Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates (John Helms) 39. 02:03 PM - Re: Prop Questions (Laird Owens) 40. 02:18 PM - Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insur ance Rates (John Helms) 41. 02:33 PM - Re: Prop Questions (Konrad Werner) 42. 03:01 PM - Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance (Jeff Point) 43. 03:13 PM - Re: do not archive (David Carter) 44. 03:30 PM - Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates (Larry Pardue) 45. 03:57 PM - Re: Taylor Pneumatic Tools (Jim Streit) 46. 03:59 PM - Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates (John Helms) 47. 04:02 PM - Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates (John Helms) 48. 05:07 PM - Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates (Larry Pardue) 49. 05:25 PM - Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance (Jeff Point) 50. 05:26 PM - Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates (John Helms) 51. 05:37 PM - Need a Battery (long, boring, please respond anyway) (Kyle Boatright) 52. 05:52 PM - Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance (Sam Buchanan) 53. 06:09 PM - >Re:Engine transducer question (Probably Dumb ) (Oldsfolks@aol.com) 54. 06:11 PM - >Re; Need a battery - Cy , note (Oldsfolks@aol.com) 55. 07:48 PM - Re: Need a Battery (long, boring, please respond anyway) (Denis Walsh) 56. 08:16 PM - Re: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates (Stephen Johnson) 57. 08:28 PM - Re: I'd like to fly in an RV somewhere around Seattle, WA (Dr. Leathers) 58. 08:59 PM - Re: Using cork with Proseal - was "Fuel Lube" (Randall Henderson) 59. 10:17 PM - upholster ? (WPAerial@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:23:52 AM PST US From: "Steffensen Mark (swr1mas)" Subject: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates --> RV-List message posted by: "Steffensen Mark (swr1mas)" Listers, I have been following this thread for the past several days, & just have to comment. I have a Lycoming IO-360 A1A 200hp engine in my 8A, it provides fantastic performance etc. I am very happy with the engine and aircraft. I am assisting several RV builders here in Atlanta with their 6A & 7A respectively. We are deeply evaluating the merits of engines for each of their missions etc. I initial based on all I have read/learned recommended the Superior XP360 product, if it was available when I made my engine decision I would have bought the XP360. However, both of these builders have contacted JT Helms at Vangard Insurance to inquire as to insurance cost with the Experimental engine VS Certificated Lycoming engine. The cost of insurance is significantly higher for a RV with a Experimental engine as compared to the Certificated Lycoming engine. I am not saying ill/negative of the Superior Product, as a matter of fact, I believe the Superior engine is the best overall value today in a RV engine, but just check with your Insurance provider to ensure that you don't get a big surprise prior to that first flight. I understand that Superior is in the process of FAA certification of their product, which I would imagine negate the insurance differential once certification is issued. Mark Steffensen RV8A 315 hours Atlanta, GA ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:28:50 AM PST US From: KAKlewin@aol.com Subject: RV-List: 6A Tow Bar... --> RV-List message posted by: KAKlewin@aol.com OK...quick tow bar questions for ya'll....got some generic stuff from the archives on tow bars for the 6A...most say standard cessna tow bars work fine...but cessna tow bar type that I look at online (sportys, etc...) does't look like they expand enough to go around the nosewheel fairing... I'm keep wanting to buy one, but am afraid Im going to have to send it back. Where do these tow bars attach on our nose gear?? Any specific ideas/part numbers/suppliers out there? Thanks for the help...as always!! Kurt Klewin, RV6A Finishing Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:53:45 AM PST US From: "Carl Froehlich" Subject: RE: RV-List: 6A Tow Bar... --> RV-List message posted by: "Carl Froehlich" Kurt, I made a tow bar from a 10' piece of 1/2" copper water pipe. The double female fitting is exactly the right size to fit over the tow bar bolts. A spring between the two tow bar arms provides the tension. I used 45 degree fittings to make the tow bar forks come together, then 90 degree fittings at the end to make a handle. It works much better that the Cessna type tow bars I tried, costs less than $10, and only took a couple of hours to make. Carl Froehlich RV-8A (flying) Vienna, VA -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of KAKlewin@aol.com Subject: RV-List: 6A Tow Bar... --> RV-List message posted by: KAKlewin@aol.com OK...quick tow bar questions for ya'll....got some generic stuff from the archives on tow bars for the 6A...most say standard cessna tow bars work fine...but cessna tow bar type that I look at online (sportys, etc...) does't look like they expand enough to go around the nosewheel fairing... I'm keep wanting to buy one, but am afraid Im going to have to send it back. Where do these tow bars attach on our nose gear?? Any specific ideas/part numbers/suppliers out there? Thanks for the help...as always!! Kurt Klewin, RV6A Finishing Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:55:41 AM PST US From: "Elsa & Henry" Subject: Re: RV-List: Need a battery --> RV-List message posted by: "Elsa & Henry" Kyle, Have you checked the voltage drops in your starter wiring? If not, connect a voltmeter between your battery negative terminal and the casing of the starter and measure while cranking. Then repeat the process between the battery positive terminal and the starter terminal.Add the two readings --You may be surprised what you find! Cheers!!----Henry Hore ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:09:17 AM PST US From: "Rick Jory" Subject: Re: RV-List: Need a battery --> RV-List message posted by: "Rick Jory" On this same subject, any 8A (aft mounted battery) drivers having cranking problems? I have a 0360-A1A with C/S prop, standard (via Vans/Lyc) SkyTec starter. I started out (no pun intended) with a Concord . . . then a Odyssey. It seems if the battery is topped off (e.g. charged before flight), all works okay, but any slight deterioration and no joy? Rick Jory RV8A ----- Original Message ----- From: Kyle Boatright Subject: RV-List: Need a battery > --> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright" > > I currently have a Concorde RG-25XC in the RV-6. I've never been particularly impressed with its cold cranking ability. I imagine the wood prop and the Prestolite starter contribute to the problem. I am considering switching batteries to something with more cold cranking amps. > > Neither Van's site nor Aircraft Spruce show the cranking amps for Concorde batteries, which makes it hard to look for a battery that offers more cranking power. Can anyone point me to the appropriate data or (even better) post comparison data for similar batteries? > > Thanks. > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:26 AM PST US From: "Charles Rowbotham" Subject: Re: RV-List: [ Fred Stucklen ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! --> RV-List message posted by: "Charles Rowbotham" Fred, Looks great ! Chuck Rowbotham RV-8A >From: Email List Photo Shares >Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com >To: Email List Photo Shares >Subject: RV-List: [ Fred Stucklen ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! >Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2003 13:57:07 -0800 > >--> RV-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares > > > >A new Email List Photo Share is available: > > Poster: Fred Stucklen > > > Subject: Instrument Panel & Radio Stack Wiring > > >http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/Fred.Stucklen@UTCFuelCells.com.01.19.2003/index.html > > > -------------------------------------------- > > o EMAIL LIST PHOTO SHARE > > Share your files and photos with other List members simply by > emailing the files to: > > pictures@matronics.com > > Please view the typical Share above and include the Description Text > Fields as shown along with your submission of files and photos. > > o Main Photo Share Index: > > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > > -------------------------------------------- > > The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:08:40 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall From: "Gannon, Terence" --> RV-List message posted by: "Gannon, Terence" 'Listers -- I'm contemplating finishing my -6 firewall prior to beginning assembly using a technique I call 'scallop polishing' -- it might have some other name of which I'm not aware. Y'know, it' the technique that uses a series of overlapping circles that when complete results in a pattern roughly resembling a scallop shell. (The most famous example of this technique is the cowl of the Spirit of St. Louis -- "aaaaah, so THAT'S what he means!"). I was wondering if anybody has either done this, or has any experience with this technique in some other application. My current plan is to program a CNC router to do the job, and also to use NO other treatment or coating for the firewall once complete. Any thoughts, comments, ideas that I should aware of before proceeding? Thank you, in advance, for your assistance. Terry in Calgary RV-6 S/N 24414 "Wings, Starting Fuse" ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:25:18 AM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: RV-List: 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall --> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" The process to which you refer is called 'engine turning'. Do a google search and you will find quite a few web sites that explain the process and show different methods. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gannon, Terence Subject: RV-List: 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall --> RV-List message posted by: "Gannon, Terence" 'Listers -- I'm contemplating finishing my -6 firewall prior to beginning assembly using a technique I call 'scallop polishing' -- it might have some other name of which I'm not aware. Y'know, it' the technique that uses a series of overlapping circles that when complete results in a pattern roughly resembling a scallop shell. (The most famous example of this technique is the cowl of the Spirit of St. Louis -- "aaaaah, so THAT'S what he means!"). I was wondering if anybody has either done this, or has any experience with this technique in some other application. My current plan is to program a CNC router to do the job, and also to use NO other treatment or coating for the firewall once complete. Any thoughts, comments, ideas that I should aware of before proceeding? Thank you, in advance, for your assistance. Terry in Calgary RV-6 S/N 24414 "Wings, Starting Fuse" ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:36:08 AM PST US From: "Elsa & Henry" Subject: Re: RV-List: 6A Tow Bar... --> RV-List message posted by: "Elsa & Henry" Kurt, Check-out Ken Barto at jbarto@banet.net . He made mine, a nice job, made out of #4130, light, and fits across the baggage compartment. Plugs into the hex sockets of the nose-wheel cap-screws. He makes them to fit the original kit pants or the wider new design ones. The last Van's Accessories Catalog I have is the 2000 one and he's listed there under "Other Suppliers" Cheers!!----Henry Hore ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:04:58 AM PST US From: Scott Brumbelow Subject: Re: RV-List: superior engine quote --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Brumbelow The engines and prices from Superior are "new"... For what it is worth, I took delivery of my O-360 B1A2 a couple of months ago. Superior offered me the choice of having Aerosport Power, America's Aircraft Engines, or Mattituck do the build. I chose America's Aircraft Engines primarily because I had talked to them at Oshkosh, I had seen them build one up at one of the forum, and their shipping was going to be cheaper than AeroSport. Mattituck got ruled out while I was at Oshkosh. Anyway, Superior and America's worked with me on getting an Ellison Throttle Body installed - Superior kept the carb and gave me credit, and America's built up and test ran the engine with the Ellison. The workmanship seems to be outstanding, and everyone I dealt with at Superior and America's was super. America's was particularly good at keeping me informed regarding status, etc. Needless to say, I am (so far) please with my decision. Scott in Memphis RV-8A RV8ter@aol.com wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: RV8ter@aol.com > > The letter does not appear to state. It says built with new millennium > cylinders in accordance with superior air parts...with all new FAA approved > parts. Each engine comes with a 3 year warranty or Manufacturer's > recommended TBO, whichever occurs first. > > I guess that would imply rebuild? > > In a message dated 1/19/2003 8:26:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, > dlndqst@optonline.net writes: > > > --> RV-List message posted by: David Lundquist > > > > Maybe I'm missing the obvious, but are the Superior engines you were quoted > > factory NEW or ReMan? They sound too low for factory new. > > > > Dave Lundquist > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:25 AM PST US From: "lucky macy" Subject: Re: RV-List: superior engine quote --> RV-List message posted by: "lucky macy" Man, at the risk of getting sidetracked, I have a question on your selection of Ellison Throttle Body. I've read/heard mostly negative opinions about this system. But I have an open mind. What are the pros and cons of this vs. standard carb and fuel injection? Have they gone through a redesign over time? A dad I know who lost his only son in an experiment crash blames this carb but that was many years ago... thanks, lucky >From: Scott Brumbelow >Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: superior engine quote >Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 10:03:42 -0600 > >--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Brumbelow > >The engines and prices from Superior are "new"... > >For what it is worth, I took delivery of my O-360 B1A2 a couple of months >ago. >Superior offered me the choice of having Aerosport Power, America's >Aircraft >Engines, or Mattituck do the build. I chose America's Aircraft Engines >primarily >because I had talked to them at Oshkosh, I had seen them build one up at >one of >the forum, and their shipping was going to be cheaper than AeroSport. >Mattituck >got ruled out while I was at Oshkosh. Anyway, Superior and America's worked >with >me on getting an Ellison Throttle Body installed - Superior kept the carb >and >gave me credit, and America's built up and test ran the engine with the >Ellison. > >The workmanship seems to be outstanding, and everyone I dealt with at >Superior >and America's was super. America's was particularly good at keeping me >informed >regarding status, etc. Needless to say, I am (so far) please with my >decision. > >Scott in Memphis >RV-8A > > >RV8ter@aol.com wrote: > > > --> RV-List message posted by: RV8ter@aol.com > > > > The letter does not appear to state. It says built with new millennium > > cylinders in accordance with superior air parts...with all new FAA >approved > > parts. Each engine comes with a 3 year warranty or Manufacturer's > > recommended TBO, whichever occurs first. > > > > I guess that would imply rebuild? > > > > In a message dated 1/19/2003 8:26:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > dlndqst@optonline.net writes: > > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: David Lundquist > > > > > > Maybe I'm missing the obvious, but are the Superior engines you were >quoted > > > factory NEW or ReMan? They sound too low for factory new. > > > > > > Dave Lundquist > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:25 AM PST US From: "thomas a. sargent" Subject: Re: RV-List: 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall --> RV-List message posted by: "thomas a. sargent" Terry: I knew a fellow who redid the dash board in his car and did a nice looking job of engine turning with a large dowel chucked in a drill press. He fastened some steel wool to the end of the dowel and just pressed it against the aluminum turning at a low speed. This requires a lot of practice on scrap first, of course. And some method of accurately indexing the piece in a regular grid of positions. -- Tom Sargent ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:00:06 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Taylor Pneumatic Tools From: "Bert Penney" --> RV-List message posted by: "Bert Penney" Thanks for your replies, Bill and Brad. I will place them in the list of contenders. Bert -----Original Message----- From: Bill Irvine [mailto:wgirvine@yahoo.com] Subject: RV-List: Taylor Pneumatic Tools --> RV-List message posted by: Bill Irvine > As a result of email conversations on this list, I > was able to find a local tool supplier. However, > the only pneumatic tool line they carry is Taylor. > I have no experience with these at all and was > wondering if anyone else has any recommendations on > this line. I got the Taylor 90 and 45 degree air drills from Avery several years ago. Love 'em, great tools. I highly recommend them. Bill ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:47 AM PST US From: "Rick Jory" Subject: Re: RV-List: 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall --> RV-List message posted by: "Rick Jory" There is a 6A builder that did this "finish look" to the inlet ramp portion of his engine baffle. I didn't watch him do it, but he told me all he did was put a Scotchbrite wheel (the "pads", a.k.a. the surfacing conditioning disc, not the "polishing wheel") into his die grinder and "polished/scratched" a pattern. Came out pretty good! Rick Jory RV8A ----- Original Message ----- From: thomas a. sargent Subject: Re: RV-List: 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall > --> RV-List message posted by: "thomas a. sargent" > > Terry: > I knew a fellow who redid the dash board in his car and did a nice > looking job of engine turning with a large dowel chucked in a drill > press. He fastened some steel wool to the end of the dowel and just > pressed it against the aluminum turning at a low speed. This requires a > lot of practice on scrap first, of course. And some method of > accurately indexing the piece in a regular grid of positions. > > -- > Tom Sargent > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:34:09 AM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: RV-List: 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall --> RV-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" Correct term is "engine polishing" or engine turning Cy Galley - MVR-AACA www.aaca.org/mvr ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gannon, Terence" Subject: RV-List: 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall > --> RV-List message posted by: "Gannon, Terence" > > 'Listers -- I'm contemplating finishing my -6 firewall prior to > beginning assembly using a technique I call 'scallop polishing' -- it > might have some other name of which I'm not aware. Y'know, it' the > technique that uses a series of overlapping circles that when complete > results in a pattern roughly resembling a scallop shell. (The most > famous example of this technique is the cowl of the Spirit of St. Louis > -- "aaaaah, so THAT'S what he means!"). I was wondering if anybody has > either done this, or has any experience with this technique in some > other application. My current plan is to program a CNC router to do the > job, and also to use NO other treatment or coating for the firewall once > complete. Any thoughts, comments, ideas that I should aware of before > proceeding? Thank you, in advance, for your assistance. > > Terry in Calgary > RV-6 S/N 24414 > "Wings, Starting Fuse" > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:41:27 AM PST US From: rv7a Subject: RV-List: I'd like to fly in an RV somewhere around Seattle, WA --> RV-List message posted by: rv7a I'm considering building an RV-7A. I fly out of Boeing Field - got my PPL in November. I saw an RV flying out of 0S9 yesterday - cool. I like what I see in the RVs. But I don't want to commit without flying in one. Can any of you PNW RV flyers give me a ride? Please let me know. Thanks, Joe Edwards ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:51:31 AM PST US From: "Craig Warner" Subject: Re: RV-List: 6A Tow Bar... --> RV-List message posted by: "Craig Warner" Ken Barto (315-622-2072) makes a tow bar for the RV6A. Don't know the price but tell him the guy that painted his airplane sent you. Best reguards Craig Warner RV6A still buildin ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: RV-List: 6A Tow Bar... > --> RV-List message posted by: KAKlewin@aol.com > > OK...quick tow bar questions for ya'll....got some generic stuff from the archives on tow bars for the 6A...most say standard cessna tow bars work fine...but cessna tow bar type that I look at online (sportys, etc...) does't look like they expand enough to go around the nosewheel fairing... I'm keep wanting to buy one, but am afraid Im going to have to send it back. Where do these tow bars attach on our nose gear?? Any specific ideas/part numbers/suppliers out there? Thanks for the help...as always!! > > Kurt Klewin, RV6A Finishing > > Do Not Archive > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:54:15 AM PST US From: "Craig Warner" Subject: Re: RV-List: 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall --> RV-List message posted by: "Craig Warner" In the automotive field this process is called "engine turning". You can do it with a wooden dowel and valve lapping compound. Craig Warner RV6A still building ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gannon, Terence" Subject: RV-List: 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall > --> RV-List message posted by: "Gannon, Terence" > > 'Listers -- I'm contemplating finishing my -6 firewall prior to > beginning assembly using a technique I call 'scallop polishing' -- it > might have some other name of which I'm not aware. Y'know, it' the > technique that uses a series of overlapping circles that when complete > results in a pattern roughly resembling a scallop shell. (The most > famous example of this technique is the cowl of the Spirit of St. Louis > -- "aaaaah, so THAT'S what he means!"). I was wondering if anybody has > either done this, or has any experience with this technique in some > other application. My current plan is to program a CNC router to do the > job, and also to use NO other treatment or coating for the firewall once > complete. Any thoughts, comments, ideas that I should aware of before > proceeding? Thank you, in advance, for your assistance. > > Terry in Calgary > RV-6 S/N 24414 > "Wings, Starting Fuse" > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:31:45 AM PST US From: "Keith and Jean Williams" Subject: RE: RV-List: external speaker --> RV-List message posted by: "Keith and Jean Williams" Bert, I did just about as Jim Oke in the post below - mine is back under the panel out of sight with no screen. Wired through audio panel (I'm using two Nav/Coms), extra mike jack, etc. I have never tried to use it in flight. Tried it a couple of times on the ground just to see that it works but other than that have never used it in 3+ years of flying. I carry a handheld which I use for "before engine start" ATIS/AWOS and (rarely) clearances. Keith Williams RV6 - Moline IL Bert; Although not usable for in-flight listening or whenever the engine is running, a cockpit speaker can be a help when copying ATIS or a clearance prior to engine start. I added one to my radio installation and also a jack for a handheld microphone to talk as well without a headset. (This will also be a back up for the day when my headset mic dies, etc.) I checked the speaker impedance needed for my radio and went shopping at the local Radio Shack. About $10 for a 4 inch or so utility speaker. Certainly not the lightest or smallest out there but the price was right. I mounted it on one of the F6107s up near the firewall. Cut a suitable sized hole with a fly cutter and sandwiched a piece of screen material (from the Home Depot screen door dept.) between speaker and the 6107 to keep out flies, errant fingers, or whatever. Pretty quick, adding the wiring with a connector for panel removal took longer. Jim Oke RV-6A - at the hanger but still working on the wiring Winnipeg, MB ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bert Forero" Subject: RV-List: external speaker > --> RV-List message posted by: "Bert Forero" > > Hi: > > I would like to hear from those who have installed > an external speaker, inside the cokpit. What type have > been installed, size, and place of installation, and > where you found it... > > > I have looked for a very small one, but cannot find one > the ones I have seing, are too big, for what I want, > and they do not have a cover, > > thanks > > Bert > > rv6a > Electrical panel odds and ends... > > Do Not Archive > > > Sign up for Internet Service under $10 dollars a month, at http://isp.BlueLight.com > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:49:57 AM PST US From: "Gary Bataller" Subject: RE: RV-List: external speaker --> RV-List message posted by: "Gary Bataller" I used an external speaker on my RV6A (in the early 90's). I found that the speaker magnet affected the magnetic compass to a very large degree, so be careful where you mount it. I seem to remember that the compass was affected even with the speaker mounted in the seat back. I too decided to use a handheld and got rid of the speaker. gary b RV7 SB >From: "Keith and Jean Williams" >Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com >To: >Subject: RE: RV-List: external speaker >Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 12:33:52 -0600 > >--> RV-List message posted by: "Keith and Jean Williams" > > >Bert, > >I did just about as Jim Oke in the post below - mine is back under the >panel >out of sight with no screen. Wired through audio panel (I'm using two >Nav/Coms), extra mike jack, etc. > >I have never tried to use it in flight. Tried it a couple of times on the >ground just to see that it works but other than that have never used it in >3+ years of flying. I carry a handheld which I use for "before engine >start" ATIS/AWOS and (rarely) clearances. > >Keith Williams >RV6 - Moline IL > > >Bert; > >Although not usable for in-flight listening or whenever the engine is >running, a cockpit speaker can be a help when copying ATIS or a clearance >prior to engine start. I added one to my radio installation and also a jack >for a handheld microphone to talk as well without a headset. (This will >also >be a back up for the day when my headset mic dies, etc.) > >I checked the speaker impedance needed for my radio and went shopping at >the >local Radio Shack. About $10 for a 4 inch or so utility speaker. Certainly >not the lightest or smallest out there but the price was right. I mounted >it >on one of the F6107s up near the firewall. Cut a suitable sized hole with a >fly cutter and sandwiched a piece of screen material (from the Home Depot >screen door dept.) between speaker and the 6107 to keep out flies, errant >fingers, or whatever. Pretty quick, adding the wiring with a connector for >panel removal took longer. > >Jim Oke >RV-6A - at the hanger but still working on the wiring >Winnipeg, MB > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bert Forero" >To: >Subject: RV-List: external speaker > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Bert Forero" > > > > Hi: > > > > I would like to hear from those who have installed > > an external speaker, inside the cokpit. What type have > > been installed, size, and place of installation, and > > where you found it... > > > > > > I have looked for a very small one, but cannot find one > > the ones I have seing, are too big, for what I want, > > and they do not have a cover, > > > > thanks > > > > Bert > > > > rv6a > > Electrical panel odds and ends... > > > > Do Not Archive > > > > > > Sign up for Internet Service under $10 dollars a month, at >http://isp.BlueLight.com > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:50:26 AM PST US From: HCRV6@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Engine transducer question (probably dumb) --> RV-List message posted by: HCRV6@aol.com Is it acceptable to mount an oil pressure switch with the oil inlet end pointing up at a 45 degree angle? Harry Crosby Pleasanton, California RV-6, starting firewall forward ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:50:39 AM PST US From: JRWillJR@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates --> RV-List message posted by: JRWillJR@aol.com Mark, I spoke to several insurers including Falcon who I have my "construction" insurance through. I was told that they will insure the XP-360 engine as if it were a Lycoming. It is an "aviation" type engine is the wording they used. I was also told a Subaru is not an "aviation" type engine. The insured cost was the same. If the company is not familiar with these engines they may well quote a higher price just like they do with a Subaru. The fellow I spoke with knew exactly what I was talking about and said they had several insured. Unless something has changed since I spoke to them a month or so ago I am expecting the insurance costs to be the same. Really, there is nothing experimental about an engine built from all PMA parts. JR ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:04:09 AM PST US From: Charlie & Tupper England Subject: Re: RV-List: Need a battery --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie & Tupper England Kyle Boatright wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright" > >I spent 30 or more minutes on the Aeroelectric list before I posted my >question. Lots of information there, but I didn't find anything that >directly addressed my question. > >I'm fairly disciplined about scouring the archives before I post to the >list... ;-) > >KB > >do not archive >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Charlie & Tupper England" >To: >Subject: Re: RV-List: Need a battery > snipped Sorry about that; but some RV listers don't read the Aero list. Try http://206.171.106.212/Concorde/Drawing/CommercialSpecs/ValveRegulated/RG-25xc.pdf and http://www.concordebattery.com/products/Com_Specs_List.cfm Charlie ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:04:09 AM PST US From: "Joshua Siler" Subject: RE: RV-List: I'd like to fly in an RV somewhere around Seattle, WA --> RV-List message posted by: "Joshua Siler" If you can't find a ride, just jump down to Van's in Portland. They give first rides in the factory demonstrators there, and you can check out the factory at the same time. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rv7a Subject: RV-List: I'd like to fly in an RV somewhere around Seattle, WA --> RV-List message posted by: rv7a I'm considering building an RV-7A. I fly out of Boeing Field - got my PPL in November. I saw an RV flying out of 0S9 yesterday - cool. I like what I see in the RVs. But I don't want to commit without flying in one. Can any of you PNW RV flyers give me a ride? Please let me know. Thanks, Joe Edwards ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:19:10 AM PST US From: "Ross Mickey" Subject: Re: RV-List: 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall --> RV-List message posted by: "Ross Mickey" I did this to my firewall. Here is how I did it. The tool I used to make the "scallops" was a 2" diameter scotchbrite wheel chucked in a standard drill. I made a "jig" out of a piece of wood lathe that was slightly longer than the firewall is wide. I measured off 2 inch marks on the lathe and made a grove the size of the mandrel that holds the scothbrite wheel along the edge of the lathe at the 2" intervals. I clamped the jig 1 inch below the top of the firewall and scuffed circles across the firewall using the groves. I moved the jig down 1 inch and over 1 inch and repeated the scuffing. This gives the fish scale look. Continue to the end. This took more time than I had originally thought. Stainless steel is tough. I am reciting this from my memory of what I did 8 years ago so if the details aren't quite right at least you have the general idea. Ross Mickey RV6A ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gannon, Terence" Subject: RV-List: 'Scallop' Polishing Firewall > --> RV-List message posted by: "Gannon, Terence" > > 'Listers -- I'm contemplating finishing my -6 firewall prior to > beginning assembly using a technique I call 'scallop polishing' -- it > might have some other name of which I'm not aware. Y'know, it' the > technique that uses a series of overlapping circles that when complete > results in a pattern roughly resembling a scallop shell. (The most > famous example of this technique is the cowl of the Spirit of St. Louis > -- "aaaaah, so THAT'S what he means!"). I was wondering if anybody has > either done this, or has any experience with this technique in some > other application. My current plan is to program a CNC router to do the > job, and also to use NO other treatment or coating for the firewall once > complete. Any thoughts, comments, ideas that I should aware of before > proceeding? Thank you, in advance, for your assistance. > > Terry in Calgary > RV-6 S/N 24414 > "Wings, Starting Fuse" > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:39:06 AM PST US From: mstewart@qa.butler.com Subject: RE: RV-List: external speaker --> RV-List message posted by: mstewart@qa.butler.com I have my Rat Shack speaker mounted to the upper Right baggage wall of my 6A. I bolted it directly to the wall, and drilled holes in the wall to let the sound out, much like a perforated dashboard. I can hear mine in flight no problem, although I rarely use it for that. Only time in flight I use it is when my ears hurt on a long trip, I take my headsets off for a while and push the speaker button on the panel so I don't miss anything while IFR. I use it when I am out of the plane and want to hear whats going on, like at Osh, SnF, or when Im waiting for my buddies to arrive at my airport and I want to hear them come in. Nothing better than sitting in the folding chairs at SnF listening to all the airshow stuff through that nice speaker, instead in the portable. Plus others can hear also. Wired to my audiopanel. http://www.mstewart.net/michael/rv/ Go to Finishing, Interior, last picture, you can see it mounted on the baggage wall. Mike Stewart -----Original Message----- From: Keith and Jean Williams [mailto:kandjwilliams@earthlink.net] Subject: RE: RV-List: external speaker --> RV-List message posted by: "Keith and Jean Williams" Bert, I did just about as Jim Oke in the post below - mine is back under the panel out of sight with no screen. Wired through audio panel (I'm using two Nav/Coms), extra mike jack, etc. I have never tried to use it in flight. Tried it a couple of times on the ground just to see that it works but other than that have never used it in 3+ years of flying. I carry a handheld which I use for "before engine start" ATIS/AWOS and (rarely) clearances. Keith Williams RV6 - Moline IL Bert; Although not usable for in-flight listening or whenever the engine is running, a cockpit speaker can be a help when copying ATIS or a clearance prior to engine start. I added one to my radio installation and also a jack for a handheld microphone to talk as well without a headset. (This will also be a back up for the day when my headset mic dies, etc.) I checked the speaker impedance needed for my radio and went shopping at the local Radio Shack. About $10 for a 4 inch or so utility speaker. Certainly not the lightest or smallest out there but the price was right. I mounted it on one of the F6107s up near the firewall. Cut a suitable sized hole with a fly cutter and sandwiched a piece of screen material (from the Home Depot screen door dept.) between speaker and the 6107 to keep out flies, errant fingers, or whatever. Pretty quick, adding the wiring with a connector for panel removal took longer. Jim Oke RV-6A - at the hanger but still working on the wiring Winnipeg, MB ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bert Forero" Subject: RV-List: external speaker > --> RV-List message posted by: "Bert Forero" > > Hi: > > I would like to hear from those who have installed > an external speaker, inside the cokpit. What type have > been installed, size, and place of installation, and > where you found it... > > > I have looked for a very small one, but cannot find one > the ones I have seing, are too big, for what I want, > and they do not have a cover, > > thanks > > Bert > > rv6a > Electrical panel odds and ends... > > Do Not Archive > > > Sign up for Internet Service under $10 dollars a month, at http://isp.BlueLight.com > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 11:45:15 AM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: RV-List: Engine transducer question (probably dumb) --> RV-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" Yes, you can point it anywhere you want and it will give exactly the same readings. Don't forget a restrictor. I think this is a very important safety device. Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org Always looking for articles for the Experimenter ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: RV-List: Engine transducer question (probably dumb) > --> RV-List message posted by: HCRV6@aol.com > > Is it acceptable to mount an oil pressure switch with the oil inlet end > pointing up at a 45 degree angle? > > Harry Crosby > Pleasanton, California > RV-6, starting firewall forward > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 11:51:37 AM PST US From: Ross Schlotthauer Subject: RE: RV-List: I'd like to fly in an RV somewhere around Seattle, WA --> RV-List message posted by: Ross Schlotthauer Josh, I hate to break it to you, but you are screwed either way. Your going to build one so just send the check and get that tail coming. Your workmanship will be better if you don't go for the ride. You will be more patient and do a better job of riveting. If you take the ride you will be all excited and tackle that tail with way too much exuberance. I am speaking from experience. I was happy with motorcycles, snowmobiles, hunting and fishing until this dreadful activity began running my life. Now I have to duck out of work at lunch to get my fix at Home Depot and Harbor Freight just to tide me over until I can get home and back to ignoring my wife in the solitude of the garage. From what I can tell there is no relief in sight. I know a guy that has built four of these F*&%ing things. Just get out the check book and start bleeding. P.S. I wouldn't have it any other way! Good luck Ross Schlotthauer RV7 Fuse Finish kit on order with 17 week lead time! --- Joshua Siler wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Joshua Siler" > > > If you can't find a ride, just jump down to Van's in > Portland. They give > first rides in the factory demonstrators there, and > you can check out > the factory at the same time. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On > Behalf Of rv7a > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: I'd like to fly in an RV somewhere > around Seattle, WA > > --> RV-List message posted by: rv7a > > > > I'm considering building an RV-7A. > I fly out of Boeing Field - got my PPL in November. > > I saw an RV flying out of 0S9 yesterday - cool. > I like what I see in the RVs. > But I don't want to commit without flying in one. > > Can any of you PNW RV flyers give me a ride? > > Please let me know. > > Thanks, Joe Edwards > > > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > latest messages. > List members. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm > Digests:http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 12:00:10 PM PST US From: Doug Gray Subject: Re: RV-List: Need a battery --> RV-List message posted by: Doug Gray > Have you checked the voltage drops in your starter wiring? If not, connect a > voltmeter between your battery negative terminal and the casing of the > starter and measure while cranking. How about measuring voltage across the starter itself, ie the voltage between the starter case (ground at the starter) and the starter terminal that way you will also include any drop in the ground return path. Rwgarding the Concorde specs, perhaps I missed this but is the internal resistance given for these batteries? Doug Gray ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 12:14:22 PM PST US From: JRWillJR@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Prop Questions --> RV-List message posted by: JRWillJR@aol.com This is just a guess, I suspect Hartzell is working on a blade with a different twist in the blades that will optimize it for the speed range at which RV aircraft fly. I have been told by numerous knowledgeable people and I think articles in the RVator that the current prop, while excellent was still not optimal. That is just a guess and I figure Hartzell will not say anything about it 'till they actually decide to produce it, finish certifying it or whatever. Do Not Archive. JR ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 12:16:38 PM PST US From: Scott Brumbelow Subject: Re: RV-List: superior engine quote --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Brumbelow Interesting - I've heard nothing but good things about the Ellison. Nonetheless, some of the reasons for my choice are below: 1) capable of inverted flight (you have to remain at positive g's with a standard carb, because of the float - there is no float with the Ellison) 2) simplicity 3) better fuel performance 4) smoother running engine Again, my individual choice was between the Ellison and a standard carb. Much of my "opinion" was formed based on a fellow pilot friend who used to be my safety in aerobatics. This guy is simply the best pilot I have flown with, and has years of experience flying many different aircraft. He has owned a couple of Pitts, an RV 4, a Yak, etc., etc., and also had a lot of pilot friends along the way. Based on his experience - and that of any of his friends that had the Ellison - it came highly recommended. For what it is worth, America's Aircraft Engines - who had never SEEN an Ellison Throttle Body before - called me at one point to specifically tell me how easy the engine was to set up with the Ellison, and how with the Ellison my engine was the smoothest running engine they had had in their shop. Again, the most critical factor for me was the desire for the capability of inverted flight. The Ellison was a much more economical alternative than "standard" fuel injection. Plus, part of the endorsement mentioned above included a couple of people who had actually replaced fuel injection systems with the Ellison. For what it is worth... OBTW, where have you read/heard the negative comments about the Ellison? Scott Memphis RV-8A lucky macy wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "lucky macy" > > Man, at the risk of getting sidetracked, I have a question on your selection > of Ellison Throttle Body. I've read/heard mostly negative opinions about > this system. But I have an open mind. What are the pros and cons of this > vs. standard carb and fuel injection? Have they gone through a redesign > over time? A dad I know who lost his only son in an experiment crash blames > this carb but that was many years ago... > > thanks, > lucky > > >From: Scott Brumbelow > >Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com > >To: rv-list@matronics.com > >Subject: Re: RV-List: superior engine quote > >Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 10:03:42 -0600 > > > >--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Brumbelow > > > >The engines and prices from Superior are "new"... > > > >For what it is worth, I took delivery of my O-360 B1A2 a couple of months > >ago. > >Superior offered me the choice of having Aerosport Power, America's > >Aircraft > >Engines, or Mattituck do the build. I chose America's Aircraft Engines > >primarily > >because I had talked to them at Oshkosh, I had seen them build one up at > >one of > >the forum, and their shipping was going to be cheaper than AeroSport. > >Mattituck > >got ruled out while I was at Oshkosh. Anyway, Superior and America's worked > >with > >me on getting an Ellison Throttle Body installed - Superior kept the carb > >and > >gave me credit, and America's built up and test ran the engine with the > >Ellison. > > > >The workmanship seems to be outstanding, and everyone I dealt with at > >Superior > >and America's was super. America's was particularly good at keeping me > >informed > >regarding status, etc. Needless to say, I am (so far) please with my > >decision. > > > >Scott in Memphis > >RV-8A > > > > > >RV8ter@aol.com wrote: > > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: RV8ter@aol.com > > > > > > The letter does not appear to state. It says built with new millennium > > > cylinders in accordance with superior air parts...with all new FAA > >approved > > > parts. Each engine comes with a 3 year warranty or Manufacturer's > > > recommended TBO, whichever occurs first. > > > > > > I guess that would imply rebuild? > > > > > > In a message dated 1/19/2003 8:26:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > > dlndqst@optonline.net writes: > > > > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: David Lundquist > > > > > > > > Maybe I'm missing the obvious, but are the Superior engines you were > >quoted > > > > factory NEW or ReMan? They sound too low for factory new. > > > > > > > > Dave Lundquist > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 12:25:57 PM PST US From: "John Helms" Subject: Re: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates --> RV-List message posted by: "John Helms" First of all, Falcon is a broker like NationAir. We brokers don't set the rates. We both deal with the exact same companies. The companies that are the most competitive on RV's with Lycomings (Phoenix and AIG) will not write coverage for the Superior engines. There are companies that will write coverage for RV's with the superior engines, but their rates are higher. So, if Falcon told you there was no difference, they either didn't know what they are talking about, or they lied, or they were planning on not informing the company about the engine (which would void your coverage, but you'd have a pretty good case against them.) Your statement will likely send those interested in those engines flooding to Falcon for quotes (their intent) but when you get the quotes and are disappointed (either because the rates are too high, or because you find out it was too good to be true, and you paid for coverage you couldn't collect on) you'll be sad. AIG is typically the most competitive company and they have added the same type of wording to their online quote system (copied directly from AIG's broker online system - Have there been any major modifications to this aircraft including alterations to powerplant or airframe that differs from the original manufacture or design?) Now, with that question on there, if your broker answered "no" but you had other than a Lyc. in your RV, you would have no coverage (again, you would have a case against the broker, but you would have to prove that you informed them about the engine type.) Your post makes it sound as if I don't know what a Superior engine is. That is not the case at all...as a matter of fact I have been trying to get Phoenix to accept them for quite some time. The two main issues are: 1. whether or not the engine manufacturer has products coverage. Products coverage can potentially pay for claims if they result from engine failure. Superior now has products coverage. 2. the number of engines out there. Normally, until there are several hundred (500 or so, not 200) of the engines out there and installed, and the companies can see how reliable they are, they won't write coverage for them, or will charge more for it. When the Van's Program started all parties (NationAir, Phoenix, and Van's) agreed that it was best if the program was restricted to engines recommended by Van's (Lycoming). This hasn't changed, and Van is not likely to start recommending any other engines anytime soon. But, I am still hopeful that with #1 above satisfied, and #2 increasing all the time, that eventually we will be able to get them included as part of the program. Desperately trying to get people to understand that their are brokers out there that will tell you anything to get your business. (Even knowingly deceive an insurance company voiding your coverage.) John "JT" Helms Branch Manager NationAir Insurance Agency Pleasure and Business Branch ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates --> RV-List message posted by: JRWillJR@aol.com Mark, I spoke to several insurers including Falcon who I have my "construction" insurance through. I was told that they will insure the XP-360 engine as if it were a Lycoming. It is an "aviation" type engine is the wording they used. I was also told a Subaru is not an "aviation" type engine. The insured cost was the same. If the company is not familiar with these engines they may well quote a higher price just like they do with a Subaru. The fellow I spoke with knew exactly what I was talking about and said they had several insured. Unless something has changed since I spoke to them a month or so ago I am expecting the insurance costs to be the same. Really, there is nothing experimental about an engine built from all PMA parts. JR ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 12:42:55 PM PST US From: "lucky macy" Subject: Re: RV-List: superior engine quote --> RV-List message posted by: "lucky macy" Probably right here in the archives on the different lists and on news groups. >From: Scott Brumbelow >Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: superior engine quote >Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 14:16:08 -0600 > >--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Brumbelow > >Interesting - I've heard nothing but good things about the Ellison. >Nonetheless, >some of the reasons for my choice are below: > > 1) capable of inverted flight (you have to remain at positive g's with >a >standard carb, because of the float - there is no float with the Ellison) > 2) simplicity > 3) better fuel performance > 4) smoother running engine > >Again, my individual choice was between the Ellison and a standard carb. >Much of >my "opinion" was formed based on a fellow pilot friend who used to be my >safety >in aerobatics. This guy is simply the best pilot I have flown with, and has >years of experience flying many different aircraft. He has owned a couple >of >Pitts, an RV 4, a Yak, etc., etc., and also had a lot of pilot friends >along the >way. Based on his experience - and that of any of his friends that had the >Ellison - it came highly recommended. > >For what it is worth, America's Aircraft Engines - who had never SEEN an >Ellison >Throttle Body before - called me at one point to specifically tell me how >easy >the engine was to set up with the Ellison, and how with the Ellison my >engine >was the smoothest running engine they had had in their shop. > >Again, the most critical factor for me was the desire for the capability of >inverted flight. The Ellison was a much more economical alternative than >"standard" fuel injection. Plus, part of the endorsement mentioned above >included a couple of people who had actually replaced fuel injection >systems >with the Ellison. > >For what it is worth... > >OBTW, where have you read/heard the negative comments about the Ellison? > >Scott Memphis >RV-8A > > >lucky macy wrote: > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "lucky macy" > > > > Man, at the risk of getting sidetracked, I have a question on your >selection > > of Ellison Throttle Body. I've read/heard mostly negative opinions >about > > this system. But I have an open mind. What are the pros and cons of >this > > vs. standard carb and fuel injection? Have they gone through a redesign > > over time? A dad I know who lost his only son in an experiment crash >blames > > this carb but that was many years ago... > > > > thanks, > > lucky > > > > >From: Scott Brumbelow > > >Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com > > >To: rv-list@matronics.com > > >Subject: Re: RV-List: superior engine quote > > >Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 10:03:42 -0600 > > > > > >--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Brumbelow > > > > > >The engines and prices from Superior are "new"... > > > > > >For what it is worth, I took delivery of my O-360 B1A2 a couple of >months > > >ago. > > >Superior offered me the choice of having Aerosport Power, America's > > >Aircraft > > >Engines, or Mattituck do the build. I chose America's Aircraft Engines > > >primarily > > >because I had talked to them at Oshkosh, I had seen them build one up >at > > >one of > > >the forum, and their shipping was going to be cheaper than AeroSport. > > >Mattituck > > >got ruled out while I was at Oshkosh. Anyway, Superior and America's >worked > > >with > > >me on getting an Ellison Throttle Body installed - Superior kept the >carb > > >and > > >gave me credit, and America's built up and test ran the engine with the > > >Ellison. > > > > > >The workmanship seems to be outstanding, and everyone I dealt with at > > >Superior > > >and America's was super. America's was particularly good at keeping me > > >informed > > >regarding status, etc. Needless to say, I am (so far) please with my > > >decision. > > > > > >Scott in Memphis > > >RV-8A > > > > > > > > >RV8ter@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: RV8ter@aol.com > > > > > > > > The letter does not appear to state. It says built with new >millennium > > > > cylinders in accordance with superior air parts...with all new FAA > > >approved > > > > parts. Each engine comes with a 3 year warranty or Manufacturer's > > > > recommended TBO, whichever occurs first. > > > > > > > > I guess that would imply rebuild? > > > > > > > > In a message dated 1/19/2003 8:26:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > > > dlndqst@optonline.net writes: > > > > > > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: David Lundquist > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe I'm missing the obvious, but are the Superior engines you >were > > >quoted > > > > > factory NEW or ReMan? They sound too low for factory new. > > > > > > > > > > Dave Lundquist > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 12:51:51 PM PST US From: Jeff Point Subject: Re: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point John, Interesting information. Here's a few questions which come to mind: 1. Do any of the companies you work with write policies for Superior engines? If so, how much more are you talking about? 2. What about Aerosport Power (Bart) non-Lycoming lycoming engines? There are a bunch of them out in the field, are any of them insured with you? How do the companies look at them? 3. If memory serves, you stated during a previous thread about subaru engines that you would be able to write policies for RVs with the Eggenfeller subaru package. Is this with the same companies which will not write a policy on a Superior engine? Could you please clarify this. Jeff Point RV-6 finish kit this morning I was two weeks away from writing a check for a Superior engine, now not so sure. Milwaukee WI > >There are companies that will write coverage for RV's with the superior >engines, but their rates are higher. So, if Falcon told you there was no >difference, they either didn't know what they are talking about, or they >lied, or they were planning on not informing the company about the engine >(which would void your coverage, but you'd have a pretty good case against >them.) > > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 12:57:26 PM PST US From: "RV6 Flyer" Subject: Re: RV-List: Prop Questions --> RV-List message posted by: "RV6 Flyer" There is a Glasair II with a IO-360 flying locally with a NEW Hartzell prop that has an EXPERIMENTAL new Hartzell blade on it. It is EXPERIMENTAL and I have not taked to the owner since he SWITCHED his old Hartzell off the airplane. Was told that Hartzell has not finished testing. They gave his 10:1 compression,1- lightspeed igniton engine a 1,900 - 2,300 RPM yellow arc so that has not gone away at this time. DO NOT ARCHIVE Gary A. Sobek "My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell, 1,244 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA http://SoCAL_WVAF.rvproject.com ----Original Message Follows---- From: JRWillJR@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Prop Questions --> RV-List message posted by: JRWillJR@aol.com This is just a guess, I suspect Hartzell is working on a blade with a different twist in the blades that will optimize it for the speed range at which RV aircraft fly. I have been told by numerous knowledgeable people and I think articles in the RVator that the current prop, while excellent was still not optimal. That is just a guess and I figure Hartzell will not say anything about it 'till they actually decide to produce it, finish certifying it or whatever. Do Not Archive. JR The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 01:15:16 PM PST US From: LeastDrag93066@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Prop Questions --> RV-List message posted by: LeastDrag93066@aol.com Hi All, I believe a 2000 to 2300 RPM yellow arc is normal for a CS propeller on an undampen crankshaft Lyc. 360 engine. Jim Ayers ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 01:27:21 PM PST US From: mstewart@qa.butler.com Subject: RE: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insur ance Rates --> RV-List message posted by: mstewart@qa.butler.com Nothing like straight forward talk from an insurance guy. Thanks JT for keeping an eye on the list and helping us out every once in a while. Anyone notice that JT is always paying attention to this insurance stuff to help us when needed. Nice to see since for 99% of us, insurance is an expensive mystery. Mike Stewart Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: John Helms [mailto:jhelms@i1.net] Subject: Re: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates --> RV-List message posted by: "John Helms" First of all, Falcon is a broker like NationAir. We brokers don't set the rates. We both deal with the exact same companies. The companies that are the most competitive on RV's with Lycomings (Phoenix and AIG) will not write coverage for the Superior engines. There are companies that will write coverage for RV's with the superior engines, but their rates are higher. So, if Falcon told you there was no difference, they either didn't know what they are talking about, or they lied, or they were planning on not informing the company about the engine (which would void your coverage, but you'd have a pretty good case against them.) Your statement will likely send those interested in those engines flooding to Falcon for quotes (their intent) but when you get the quotes and are disappointed (either because the rates are too high, or because you find out it was too good to be true, and you paid for coverage you couldn't collect on) you'll be sad. AIG is typically the most competitive company and they have added the same type of wording to their online quote system (copied directly from AIG's broker online system - Have there been any major modifications to this aircraft including alterations to powerplant or airframe that differs from the original manufacture or design?) Now, with that question on there, if your broker answered "no" but you had other than a Lyc. in your RV, you would have no coverage (again, you would have a case against the broker, but you would have to prove that you informed them about the engine type.) Your post makes it sound as if I don't know what a Superior engine is. That is not the case at all...as a matter of fact I have been trying to get Phoenix to accept them for quite some time. The two main issues are: 1. whether or not the engine manufacturer has products coverage. Products coverage can potentially pay for claims if they result from engine failure. Superior now has products coverage. 2. the number of engines out there. Normally, until there are several hundred (500 or so, not 200) of the engines out there and installed, and the companies can see how reliable they are, they won't write coverage for them, or will charge more for it. When the Van's Program started all parties (NationAir, Phoenix, and Van's) agreed that it was best if the program was restricted to engines recommended by Van's (Lycoming). This hasn't changed, and Van is not likely to start recommending any other engines anytime soon. But, I am still hopeful that with #1 above satisfied, and #2 increasing all the time, that eventually we will be able to get them included as part of the program. Desperately trying to get people to understand that their are brokers out there that will tell you anything to get your business. (Even knowingly deceive an insurance company voiding your coverage.) John "JT" Helms Branch Manager NationAir Insurance Agency Pleasure and Business Branch ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates --> RV-List message posted by: JRWillJR@aol.com Mark, I spoke to several insurers including Falcon who I have my "construction" insurance through. I was told that they will insure the XP-360 engine as if it were a Lycoming. It is an "aviation" type engine is the wording they used. I was also told a Subaru is not an "aviation" type engine. The insured cost was the same. If the company is not familiar with these engines they may well quote a higher price just like they do with a Subaru. The fellow I spoke with knew exactly what I was talking about and said they had several insured. Unless something has changed since I spoke to them a month or so ago I am expecting the insurance costs to be the same. Really, there is nothing experimental about an engine built from all PMA parts. JR ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 01:35:52 PM PST US From: "John Helms" Subject: Re: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates --> RV-List message posted by: "John Helms" 1. Yes, some of the companies do write coverage for Superior engines. The rates would likely be about 35% to 50% more than what you could get thru the VanGuard program. (if you quote was $1500 thru the program with a Lycoming, you could expect your premium to be about $2000 to $2250 elsewhere with a Superior.) 2. Aerosport power engines - aren't those just remanufactured Lycomings? Lycomings new, used, overhauled by an FBO, overhauled by you.... all would be accepted as a Lycoming. I believe that in most cases a Superior Airparts XP-360 is going to be a better engine than what Joe Airplane-builder could produce in the way of his own overhauled Lycoming. (sorry Joe) This is one of the main reasons I'd like to see them included. 3. No. None of the companies that are available will do Suburu engine powered RV's (with one maybe). I specifically polled the companies about a month ago. I did get an answer of "no, not usually, but send us the quote request and we'll review it" from one company that is B+ rated. This was a better response than I anticipated. AVEMCO, the direct writer, is still the only company that will do the Suburu's. John "JT" Helms Branch Manager NationAir Insurance Agency Pleasure and Business Branch ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Point" Subject: Re: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point John, Interesting information. Here's a few questions which come to mind: 1. Do any of the companies you work with write policies for Superior engines? If so, how much more are you talking about? 2. What about Aerosport Power (Bart) non-Lycoming lycoming engines? There are a bunch of them out in the field, are any of them insured with you? How do the companies look at them? 3. If memory serves, you stated during a previous thread about subaru engines that you would be able to write policies for RVs with the Eggenfeller subaru package. Is this with the same companies which will not write a policy on a Superior engine? Could you please clarify this. Jeff Point RV-6 finish kit this morning I was two weeks away from writing a check for a Superior engine, now not so sure. Milwaukee WI > >There are companies that will write coverage for RV's with the superior >engines, but their rates are higher. So, if Falcon told you there was no >difference, they either didn't know what they are talking about, or they >lied, or they were planning on not informing the company about the engine >(which would void your coverage, but you'd have a pretty good case against >them.) > > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 02:03:35 PM PST US From: Laird Owens Subject: Re: RV-List: Prop Questions --> RV-List message posted by: Laird Owens If it's the Glasair that I think Gary is talking about, I saw it yesterday at Furnace Creek. It has a BITCHEN looking simitar shape to it. I wish I had gotten a picture of it. He's usually over at Whiteman on Sunday afternoons. I'll have to get the scoop next week (if he'll talk :-) Laird Do Not Archive >--> RV-List message posted by: "RV6 Flyer" > >There is a Glasair II with a IO-360 flying locally with a NEW Hartzell prop >that has an EXPERIMENTAL new Hartzell blade on it. It is EXPERIMENTAL and I >have not taked to the owner since he SWITCHED his old Hartzell off the >airplane. > >Was told that Hartzell has not finished testing. They gave his 10:1 >compression,1- lightspeed igniton engine a 1,900 - 2,300 RPM yellow arc so >that has not gone away at this time. > > >DO NOT ARCHIVE > >Gary A. Sobek >"My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell, >1,244 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA >http://SoCAL_WVAF.rvproject.com > > >----Original Message Follows---- >From: JRWillJR@aol.com >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: Prop Questions >Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:13:20 EST > >--> RV-List message posted by: JRWillJR@aol.com > >This is just a guess, I suspect Hartzell is working on a blade with a >different twist in the blades that will optimize it for the speed range at >which RV aircraft fly. I have been told by numerous knowledgeable people and >I think articles in the RVator that the current prop, while excellent was >still not optimal. That is just a guess and I figure Hartzell will not say >anything about it 'till they actually decide to produce it, finish >certifying >it or whatever. Do Not Archive. JR > > >The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* > > ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 02:18:48 PM PST US From: "John Helms" Subject: Re: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insur ance Rates --> RV-List message posted by: "John Helms" Thanks for your encouragement. If anyone ever has a question, feel free to ask. I am usually online every working day. I can't give specific advice regarding your individual coverages unless I write the policy. But, I will certainly help if I can. JT Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: RE: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insur ance Rates --> RV-List message posted by: mstewart@qa.butler.com Nothing like straight forward talk from an insurance guy. Thanks JT for keeping an eye on the list and helping us out every once in a while. Anyone notice that JT is always paying attention to this insurance stuff to help us when needed. Nice to see since for 99% of us, insurance is an expensive mystery. Mike Stewart Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: John Helms [mailto:jhelms@i1.net] Subject: Re: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates --> RV-List message posted by: "John Helms" First of all, Falcon is a broker like NationAir. We brokers don't set the rates. We both deal with the exact same companies. The companies that are the most competitive on RV's with Lycomings (Phoenix and AIG) will not write coverage for the Superior engines. There are companies that will write coverage for RV's with the superior engines, but their rates are higher. So, if Falcon told you there was no difference, they either didn't know what they are talking about, or they lied, or they were planning on not informing the company about the engine (which would void your coverage, but you'd have a pretty good case against them.) Your statement will likely send those interested in those engines flooding to Falcon for quotes (their intent) but when you get the quotes and are disappointed (either because the rates are too high, or because you find out it was too good to be true, and you paid for coverage you couldn't collect on) you'll be sad. AIG is typically the most competitive company and they have added the same type of wording to their online quote system (copied directly from AIG's broker online system - Have there been any major modifications to this aircraft including alterations to powerplant or airframe that differs from the original manufacture or design?) Now, with that question on there, if your broker answered "no" but you had other than a Lyc. in your RV, you would have no coverage (again, you would have a case against the broker, but you would have to prove that you informed them about the engine type.) Your post makes it sound as if I don't know what a Superior engine is. That is not the case at all...as a matter of fact I have been trying to get Phoenix to accept them for quite some time. The two main issues are: 1. whether or not the engine manufacturer has products coverage. Products coverage can potentially pay for claims if they result from engine failure. Superior now has products coverage. 2. the number of engines out there. Normally, until there are several hundred (500 or so, not 200) of the engines out there and installed, and the companies can see how reliable they are, they won't write coverage for them, or will charge more for it. When the Van's Program started all parties (NationAir, Phoenix, and Van's) agreed that it was best if the program was restricted to engines recommended by Van's (Lycoming). This hasn't changed, and Van is not likely to start recommending any other engines anytime soon. But, I am still hopeful that with #1 above satisfied, and #2 increasing all the time, that eventually we will be able to get them included as part of the program. Desperately trying to get people to understand that their are brokers out there that will tell you anything to get your business. (Even knowingly deceive an insurance company voiding your coverage.) John "JT" Helms Branch Manager NationAir Insurance Agency Pleasure and Business Branch ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates --> RV-List message posted by: JRWillJR@aol.com Mark, I spoke to several insurers including Falcon who I have my "construction" insurance through. I was told that they will insure the XP-360 engine as if it were a Lycoming. It is an "aviation" type engine is the wording they used. I was also told a Subaru is not an "aviation" type engine. The insured cost was the same. If the company is not familiar with these engines they may well quote a higher price just like they do with a Subaru. The fellow I spoke with knew exactly what I was talking about and said they had several insured. Unless something has changed since I spoke to them a month or so ago I am expecting the insurance costs to be the same. Really, there is nothing experimental about an engine built from all PMA parts. JR ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 02:33:57 PM PST US From: "Konrad Werner" Subject: Re: RV-List: Prop Questions --> RV-List message posted by: "Konrad Werner" Laird, What do you mean by . . . IF HE'LL TALK? There are different ways to MAKE HIM TALK !! Konrad And please, Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laird Owens" Subject: Re: RV-List: Prop Questions > --> RV-List message posted by: Laird Owens > > If it's the Glasair that I think Gary is talking about, I saw it > yesterday at Furnace Creek. It has a BITCHEN looking simitar shape > to it. I wish I had gotten a picture of it. He's usually over at > Whiteman on Sunday afternoons. I'll have to get the scoop next week > (if he'll talk :-) > > Laird > > Do Not Archive > > >--> RV-List message posted by: "RV6 Flyer" > > > >There is a Glasair II with a IO-360 flying locally with a NEW Hartzell prop > >that has an EXPERIMENTAL new Hartzell blade on it. It is EXPERIMENTAL and I > >have not taked to the owner since he SWITCHED his old Hartzell off the > >airplane. > > > >Was told that Hartzell has not finished testing. They gave his 10:1 > >compression,1- lightspeed igniton engine a 1,900 - 2,300 RPM yellow arc so > >that has not gone away at this time. > > > > > >DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > >Gary A. Sobek > >"My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell, > >1,244 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA > >http://SoCAL_WVAF.rvproject.com > > > > > >----Original Message Follows---- > >From: JRWillJR@aol.com > >To: rv-list@matronics.com > >Subject: Re: RV-List: Prop Questions > >Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:13:20 EST > > > >--> RV-List message posted by: JRWillJR@aol.com > > > >This is just a guess, I suspect Hartzell is working on a blade with a > >different twist in the blades that will optimize it for the speed range at > >which RV aircraft fly. I have been told by numerous knowledgeable people and > >I think articles in the RVator that the current prop, while excellent was > >still not optimal. That is just a guess and I figure Hartzell will not say > >anything about it 'till they actually decide to produce it, finish > >certifying > >it or whatever. Do Not Archive. JR > > > > > >The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 03:01:06 PM PST US From: Jeff Point Subject: Re: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point Actually, he sells rebuilt Lycomings as well as his own, all brand new parts engines. He is getting away from the remans and favoring new engines since the o-360 cores are getting more $$$. His new engines use all Superior parts (or whatever you specify) and are basically an XP-360, but with an Aerosport Power o-360 date plate, not Lycomingor Superior. This is what he told me at Oshkosh last year. Anyone out there who has an RV with an Aerosport engine (new or reman'd) I'd really like to know what your experience getting insurance was, ie. where and how much? I am planning to order an Aerosport engine in a couple of weeks, but this is causing me to rethink it. I know many others are considering the XP-360 so this topic may be of great interest. Jeff Point RV-6 finish kit Milwaukee WI >2. Aerosport power engines - aren't those just remanufactured Lycomings? >Lycomings new, used, overhauled by an FBO, overhauled by you.... all would >be accepted as a Lycoming. I believe that in most cases a Superior Airparts >XP-360 is going to be a better engine than what Joe Airplane-builder could >produce in the way of his own overhauled Lycoming. (sorry Joe) This is one >of the main reasons I'd like to see them included. > > > ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 03:13:48 PM PST US From: "David Carter" Subject: RV-List: Re: do not archive --> RV-List message posted by: "David Carter" test - DO NOT ARCHIVE (configuring e-mail settings after change of DSL provider) David Carter ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 03:30:35 PM PST US From: "Larry Pardue" Subject: Re: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Pardue" > --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point > > > Anyone out there who has an RV with an Aerosport engine (new or reman'd) > I'd really like to know what your experience getting insurance was, ie. > where and how much? I am planning to order an Aerosport engine in a > couple of weeks, but this is causing me to rethink it. I know many > others are considering the XP-360 so this topic may be of great interest. > I have an Aerosport Power engine. It is not a Lycoming and it is not certified. It is an Aerosport Power with Lycoming parts. I recommend Bart Lalonde and his engines most highly. They don't come better. I have my insurance through Scott (Sky) Smith. He shops it around each year. It is cheap and was no problem to get. Larry Pardue Carlsbad, NM RV-6 N441LP Flying http://www.carlsbadnm.com/n5lp/index.htm ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 03:57:27 PM PST US From: Jim Streit Subject: Re: RV-List: Taylor Pneumatic Tools --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Streit I have several Taylor tools and I'm very satisfied with all of them Bert Penney wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Bert Penney" > > Thanks for your replies, Bill and Brad. I will place them in the list > of contenders. > > Bert > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Irvine [mailto:wgirvine@yahoo.com] > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Taylor Pneumatic Tools > > --> RV-List message posted by: Bill Irvine > > > As a result of email conversations on this list, I > > was able to find a local tool supplier. However, > > the only pneumatic tool line they carry is Taylor. > > I have no experience with these at all and was > > wondering if anyone else has any recommendations on > > this line. > > I got the Taylor 90 and 45 degree air drills from > Avery several years ago. Love 'em, great tools. I > highly recommend them. > > Bill > ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 03:59:17 PM PST US From: "John Helms" Subject: Re: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates --> RV-List message posted by: "John Helms" Jeff, I would caveat any answers you get back by saying... the insurance company may or may not know what the engine is. I am as guilty as any other agent. Stuff changes in the homebuilt world fairly fast. I was not aware until today that Aerosport was building Superior engines (for example.) I may very well insure some of those engines, while having turned away someone who presented it as a Superior engine. I guess what I am saying is that (whether thru error, or intentional deceipt) it is very important for you (the insured) to know if the insurance company wants to insure that type of engine or not. If not, then you could be paying for insurance that you won't (or will have difficulty) collect upon. You want to be as upfront as possible with them. No need to pay for something you would not get the benefit of, or have to fight to get. To ease some minds out there - Phoenix, who underwrites the VanGuard Program, paid a total loss with passenger liability out this year on an aircraft that had a Chevy engine in it. That is not an engine that they will knowingly cover today, but we didn't used to ask the question. We nor they had any clue that it was powered by a Chevy. They paid the loss. Had they found out before he had that engine they likely would have just let the policy expire at it's natural end, and not renewed it. Basically, the application's question of "Does the airplane have any modifications not provided by the manufacturer?" or something to that effect would come to be at issue. The insurance companies consider Van's Aircraft to be the manufacturer (I know many of you consider yourselves to be such, but that is not important.) What is important is what could be supported/proven in court. (because it could get to that point if they were to deny a claim.) JT do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Point" Subject: Re: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point Actually, he sells rebuilt Lycomings as well as his own, all brand new parts engines. He is getting away from the remans and favoring new engines since the o-360 cores are getting more $$$. His new engines use all Superior parts (or whatever you specify) and are basically an XP-360, but with an Aerosport Power o-360 date plate, not Lycomingor Superior. This is what he told me at Oshkosh last year. Anyone out there who has an RV with an Aerosport engine (new or reman'd) I'd really like to know what your experience getting insurance was, ie. where and how much? I am planning to order an Aerosport engine in a couple of weeks, but this is causing me to rethink it. I know many others are considering the XP-360 so this topic may be of great interest. Jeff Point RV-6 finish kit Milwaukee WI >2. Aerosport power engines - aren't those just remanufactured Lycomings? >Lycomings new, used, overhauled by an FBO, overhauled by you.... all would >be accepted as a Lycoming. I believe that in most cases a Superior Airparts >XP-360 is going to be a better engine than what Joe Airplane-builder could >produce in the way of his own overhauled Lycoming. (sorry Joe) This is one >of the main reasons I'd like to see them included. > > ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 04:02:45 PM PST US From: "John Helms" Subject: Re: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates --> RV-List message posted by: "John Helms" Larry, Scott is an O.K agent, but AIG now has that wording on their online applications (only been on their for a few months to combat an unscrupulous agent that was getting quotes as RV-4's that were actually Harmon Rockets.) But, I would think twice about renewing that with AIG without expressly having Scott tell them about the engine and get their o.k. JT do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Pardue" Subject: Re: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Pardue" > --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point > > > Anyone out there who has an RV with an Aerosport engine (new or reman'd) > I'd really like to know what your experience getting insurance was, ie. > where and how much? I am planning to order an Aerosport engine in a > couple of weeks, but this is causing me to rethink it. I know many > others are considering the XP-360 so this topic may be of great interest. > I have an Aerosport Power engine. It is not a Lycoming and it is not certified. It is an Aerosport Power with Lycoming parts. I recommend Bart Lalonde and his engines most highly. They don't come better. I have my insurance through Scott (Sky) Smith. He shops it around each year. It is cheap and was no problem to get. Larry Pardue Carlsbad, NM RV-6 N441LP Flying http://www.carlsbadnm.com/n5lp/index.htm ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 05:07:26 PM PST US From: "Larry Pardue" Subject: Re: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Pardue" > --> RV-List message posted by: "John Helms" > > Larry, > > Scott is an O.K agent, but AIG now has that wording on their online > applications (only been on their for a few months to combat an unscrupulous > agent that was getting quotes as RV-4's that were actually Harmon Rockets.) > > But, I would think twice about renewing that with AIG without expressly > having Scott tell them about the engine and get their o.k. > I guess I don't understand this. Each year I am sent a questionaire that takes about 2 hours to fill out. It delves into my entire aviation history. How many hours multiengine. How many hours glider. How many hours last six months. How many total hours. How many airframe hours on my airplane? How many engine hours on the Aerosport Power O-360 (listed as such)? How many hours tailwheel? This is not enough? It seems to me that you are saying I am supposed to deal with all the insurance companies my agent may use. How am I supposed to even know who they even are? Due dilligence requires I ask my agent, who has forgotten in the last 20 minutes more than I have ever known about insurance in my entire 53 years to check with AIG? Who is AIG? Why am I paying my agent a commission if I am supposed to know more than him? All the information is well documented. I know he knows it because it comes back to me every year and if I should ever have a claim it better be paid because I am abiding by the contract. I am completely honest on everything I tell my agent, I expect he is the same with the companies he deals with. I do not think I am negligent! Larry Pardue Carlsbad, NM RV-6 N441LP Flying http://www.carlsbadnm.com/n5lp/index.htm ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 05:25:37 PM PST US From: Jeff Point Subject: Re: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point John, This may be a silly question, but what if Van came out and "endorsed" the XP-360 for RVs? With the ads he and Lycoming run that may not be likely, but if he did, would it negate the problem you described below? I and many others do appreciate the time you take to straighten us out on these things. Jeff Point John Helms wrote: >Basically, the application's question of "Does the airplane have any >modifications not provided by the manufacturer?" or something to that effect >would come to be at issue. The insurance companies consider Van's Aircraft >to be the manufacturer (I know many of you consider yourselves to be such, >but that is not important.) What is important is what could be >supported/proven in court. (because it could get to that point if they were >to deny a claim.) > > > ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 05:26:07 PM PST US From: "John Helms" Subject: Re: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates --> RV-List message posted by: "John Helms" AIG is the primary market that Scott uses, especially for RV's. I am assuming that AIG is your insurance company. AIG just this year has (as I said) included on their online quote request that brokers fill out to get you the quote the question about engine type. I am just saying that I would make absolutely sure that this year you ask the question. I am not saying you haven't done your due diligence, nor am I saying that about Scott. I am just making a suggestion. Especially if your policy is written thru AIG. (by the way you can tell who your insurance company is by reading your policy... they're identified on the policy, because that is who issues it.) JT do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Pardue" Subject: Re: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Pardue" > --> RV-List message posted by: "John Helms" > > Larry, > > Scott is an O.K agent, but AIG now has that wording on their online > applications (only been on their for a few months to combat an unscrupulous > agent that was getting quotes as RV-4's that were actually Harmon Rockets.) > > But, I would think twice about renewing that with AIG without expressly > having Scott tell them about the engine and get their o.k. > I guess I don't understand this. Each year I am sent a questionaire that takes about 2 hours to fill out. It delves into my entire aviation history. How many hours multiengine. How many hours glider. How many hours last six months. How many total hours. How many airframe hours on my airplane? How many engine hours on the Aerosport Power O-360 (listed as such)? How many hours tailwheel? This is not enough? It seems to me that you are saying I am supposed to deal with all the insurance companies my agent may use. How am I supposed to even know who they even are? Due dilligence requires I ask my agent, who has forgotten in the last 20 minutes more than I have ever known about insurance in my entire 53 years to check with AIG? Who is AIG? Why am I paying my agent a commission if I am supposed to know more than him? All the information is well documented. I know he knows it because it comes back to me every year and if I should ever have a claim it better be paid because I am abiding by the contract. I am completely honest on everything I tell my agent, I expect he is the same with the companies he deals with. I do not think I am negligent! Larry Pardue Carlsbad, NM RV-6 N441LP Flying http://www.carlsbadnm.com/n5lp/index.htm ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 05:37:27 PM PST US From: "Kyle Boatright" Subject: RV-List: Need a Battery (long, boring, please respond anyway) --> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright" Thanks to all who replied on and off-list to my battery question from yesterday. After a review of the spec's for both Concorde's and Odyssey's offerings, I'm still confused on which battery will provide the best cranking performance. The problem is that the two manufacturers do not publish directly comparable performance specifications. For instance, Concorde publishes instantaneous cranking power after 0.3 seconds of cranking. They also publish cranking power after 15 seconds. These tests are conducted without letting voltage drop below 1/2 the battery's nominal voltage. The output data is given at 3 different temperatures. In contrast, Odyssey publishes output after 5 and 30 seconds of cranking time, with the 5 second time only given at 80F, and the 30 second readings at 0F and 32F. Here's some data: Data at 32F: The Concorde RG-25 provides 1254 cranking amps after 0.3 seconds and 250A after 15 seconds at 32F. The RG-25 XC provides 536A after 0.3 seconds and 375A after 15 seconds. (interesting that it provides much less up-front power than its sibling but significantly more power at the end of 15 seconds). The Odyssey PC 680 provides 300A after 30 seconds, but no initial output amperage is given. At higher temperatures (74F for the Concordes, and 80F for the Odyssey), the data is: RG-25 - 1278A at 0.3 seconds, 508A after 15 seconds. RG-25XL - 846A at 0.3 seconds, 597A after 15 seconds. PC-680 - 680A after 5 seconds. No data for 15 or 30 seconds. Conclusions/Opinions - (Feel free to offer a different interpretation). The RG-25 is the sprinter of the bunch. It offers the highest initial power, but drops off rapidly. If you are looking to spin a propeller fast RIGHT NOW, this is the battery for you. It is more difficult to compare the PC-680 and the RG25XC, but my eyeball analysis says the PC-680 may have an advantage in starting performance. Some other things to consider are that the PC-680 is 9 pounds lighter than the RG25XC and 8 pounds lighter than the RG-25. The PC-680 is a 16AH battery, and the others are 25AH. Depending on the retailer, the Concordes are generally less expensive than the PC-680. Comments appreciated. My objective is to find the battery that is most likely to give me a no-hassle start on a 30F morning. As some have suggested, I could lay out a total of about $500 for a lightweight starter and a steel flywheel ring. This would improve my starting performance over the Prestolite and keep the CG where it needs to be. However, I'd rather spend $100 on a battery if that would achieve my goal. Side note... After sitting 3 weeks, the 3 year old RG-25XC spewed enough electrons to crank the engine (reluctantly) on the first try this evening. I think the 50F+ temperatures had something to do with it. KB ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 05:52:49 PM PST US From: Sam Buchanan Subject: Re: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan John, I was following your logic for a while but it is now getting somewhat hazy. :-) If I understand your position (and I suppose the position of insurance companies if you have accurately reflected their stance on this subject) a Lycoming engine is only a Lycoming (and therefore insurable) if the data plate on the engine states Lycoming as the manufacturer. You may not be aware of this, but many, many "Lycoming" engines in RVs have no data plate, or a plate that has the aircraft builder's name as the manufacturer. This is because the FARs do not require the "Lycoming" plate on the engines of experimental aircraft, and many experimental "Lycoming" engines are built out of a mixture of parts off the shelf of a homebuilder or engine rebuilder wherein traceability or logability of the components is impossible. If tracibilty of the components of the engine is impossible, and a data plate is not present, the FAA does not recognize the engine as a Lycoming. Are you stating that the RV builder who possessed such an engine in his/her RV is in danger of non-payment should a claim arise? If the answer is yes, then just how is a "Lycoming" engine defined? Is it one that has a data plate and valid logs traceable back to the factory, in other words, a "certificated" engine? Or, is it one that merely "looks" like a certificated Lycoming engine? And if merely looking like a certificated engine is sufficient, then what is the difference in the data-plateless engine I build in my carport (similar to the hundreds of engines currently in RVs) and the hundreds of engines built by Aerosport which has a non-Lycoming dataplate? If indeed this is the angle the insurance companies are taking, this is a can of worms the bottom of which we will never find! You are now placing RV builders in the position of stating that their engine must meet a "standard", and we don't even know the parameters of the standard! What is the definition of "any major modifications to this aircraft including alterations to powerplant or airframe that differs from the original manufacture or design?" Does the inclusion of electronic ignition which Lycoming has not blessed qualify as a "major modification"? What about a fuel injection system such as the highly popular Airflow Performance system? Or......if Vans, who you say the insurance company considers as the manufacturer, decides to install electronic ignitions, fuel injection systems, four into two exhaust systems, high compression pistons, and a different cam profile in their demonstrator planes, does that then clear us for using the same or similar components in our planes with full insurance coverage? Does Vans know they are the manufacturer of our planes and are now liable for any damage we manage to inflict on our passengers or other people's property? John, I appreciate your input on this subject. I suspect the experimental community has moved much faster and farther toward custom-built "Lycoming" engines than you and the insurance industry realize. If the industry is now qualifying just what is and what isn't an insurable Lycoming engine.........we need to see a WRITTEN set of standards! Respectfully, Sam Buchanan ================================== Larry Pardue wrote: > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Pardue" > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "John Helms" > > > > Larry, > > > > Scott is an O.K agent, but AIG now has that wording on their online > > applications (only been on their for a few months to combat an > unscrupulous > > agent that was getting quotes as RV-4's that were actually Harmon > Rockets.) > > > > But, I would think twice about renewing that with AIG without expressly > > having Scott tell them about the engine and get their o.k. > > > > I guess I don't understand this. Each year I am sent a questionaire that > takes about 2 hours to fill out. It delves into my entire aviation history. > How many hours multiengine. How many hours glider. How many hours last six > months. How many total hours. How many airframe hours on my airplane? How > many engine hours on the Aerosport Power O-360 (listed as such)? How many > hours tailwheel? This is not enough? It seems to me that you are saying I > am supposed to deal with all the insurance companies my agent may use. How > am I supposed to even know who they even are? > > Due dilligence requires I ask my agent, who has forgotten in the last 20 > minutes more than I have ever known about insurance in my entire 53 years to > check with AIG? Who is AIG? Why am I paying my agent a commission if I am > supposed to know more than him? All the information is well documented. I > know he knows it because it comes back to me every year and if I should ever > have a claim it better be paid because I am abiding by the contract. > > I am completely honest on everything I tell my agent, I expect he is the > same with the companies he deals with. I do not think I am negligent! > > Larry Pardue > Carlsbad, NM ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 06:09:19 PM PST US From: Oldsfolks@aol.com Subject: RV-List: >Re:Engine transducer question (Probably Dumb ) --> RV-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com The only dumb question - is the one you don't ask ! As Cy said , the transducer doesn't care whch way. The transducer shouldn't be mounted directly on the engine though. Tha weight and vibration might break it . Use a proper hose , with a restrictor fitting, to the transducer and mount it to the engine mount,firewall,etc. do not archive Bob Olds A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor RV-4 , N1191X , Flying Now Charleston, Arkansas "Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers" ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 06:11:41 PM PST US From: Oldsfolks@aol.com Subject: RV-List: >Re; Need a battery - Cy , note --> RV-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com Cy ; My lawnmower is a 1951 Farmall Super 'A' tractor , doesn't take much to crank it over and if it doesn't start - I'm still at home . Thanx for comment. do not archive Bob Olds A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor RV-4 , N1191X , Flying Now Charleston, Arkansas "Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers" ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 07:48:14 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: Need a Battery (long, boring, please respond anyway) From: Denis Walsh --> RV-List message posted by: Denis Walsh OK here's my response. My field test is as follows: I've run the RG 25, several garden tractor batteries, and the PC 625. The Odyssey cranks faster hot or cold. It also has a lot less internal resistance (I think). Anyway it will go weeks and weeks without losing very much capacity. Conversely, due to odyssey's lower overall capacity, I finally disconnected my electronic Tach from the direct battery bus, as it was draining down the Battery a volt or two after a few weeks! This was not normally a problem for me since I fly a couple times a week; however I noticed it during our 9/11 stand down. For my VFR flying the PC 625 is perfect. For someone else, who may need a bigger reserve if the alternator crumps, it may not have enough reserve. I figure it should last me three hours minimum under reduced load. I have flight checked its ability to power the master switch items, with t&B and master solenoid on for a two hour lunch period and still have 12V. At around $80 it is comparable in price, lasts longer, is lighter. I like it! All in all I feel that in my field test the Odyssey is the big winner for my purposes. My 625 has been in service for two years and still is very strong. This was not the case for the concorde and certainly not for the tractor batteries. I have a standard compression O-360, and a sky tec starter. I crank up the plane several hundred times per year. Average 180 hours with lots of short hops. Denis ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 08:16:16 PM PST US From: "Stephen Johnson" Subject: Re: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates --> RV-List message posted by: "Stephen Johnson" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Buchanan" Subject: Re: RV-List: Experimental Engines VS Certificated Engines & Insurance Rates > --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan > > John, I was following your logic for a while but it is now getting > somewhat hazy. :-) > > If I understand your position (and I suppose the position of insurance > companies if you have accurately reflected their stance on this subject) > a Lycoming engine is only a Lycoming (and therefore insurable) if the > data plate on the engine states Lycoming as the manufacturer. > stuff deleted > > John, I appreciate your input on this subject. I suspect the > experimental community has moved much faster and farther toward > custom-built "Lycoming" engines than you and the insurance industry > realize. If the industry is now qualifying just what is and what isn't > an insurable Lycoming engine.........we need to see a WRITTEN set of > standards! > > Respectfully, > > Sam Buchanan > As some of you may know, the entire insurance industry is in some turmoil right now. I suspect that the insurance companies are trying to figure out a way to effectively raise rates through a back door technique. Whatever the insurance policy is today can easily change next year. It does seem to me that they need to define exactly what they mean by major engine modification. I will be converting my new Lycoming IO-360-A1B6 with a Christen system to inverted operation. The engine will then be exactly equivalent to the AEIO-360-A1B6. This is a modification which turns one certificated engine into another flavor of certificated engine. I'm not an A&P. Steve Johnson RV-8 fuslage stage ________________________________ Message 57 ____________________________________ Time: 08:28:46 PM PST US From: "Dr. Leathers" Subject: Re: RV-List: I'd like to fly in an RV somewhere around Seattle, WA --> RV-List message posted by: "Dr. Leathers" Josh, Let me know it you want to go to Pltd to visit Vans. I've been meaning to do it myself. Maybe we can ride down together. DOC do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joshua Siler" Subject: RE: RV-List: I'd like to fly in an RV somewhere around Seattle, WA > --> RV-List message posted by: "Joshua Siler" > > If you can't find a ride, just jump down to Van's in Portland. They give > first rides in the factory demonstrators there, and you can check out > the factory at the same time. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rv7a > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: I'd like to fly in an RV somewhere around Seattle, WA > > --> RV-List message posted by: rv7a > > > I'm considering building an RV-7A. > I fly out of Boeing Field - got my PPL in November. > > I saw an RV flying out of 0S9 yesterday - cool. > I like what I see in the RVs. > But I don't want to commit without flying in one. > > Can any of you PNW RV flyers give me a ride? > > Please let me know. > > Thanks, Joe Edwards > > ________________________________ Message 58 ____________________________________ Time: 08:59:10 PM PST US From: "Randall Henderson" Subject: Re: RV-List: Using cork with Proseal - was "Fuel Lube" --> RV-List message posted by: "Randall Henderson" [snip] > I took the precaution of putting caps on all the nut-plates, sealed > with proseal, to prevent fuel weeping down the screw threads. [...] Good idea but not really needed. Others have reported that they used sealed nutplates which also seem like a good idea but IMHO not worth bothering with. Proseal works fine on its own -- it gets in the threads when you put the screws in, and if you also put some around the hole before putting the screws in, it'll seal the heads as well. Still concerned? Smear it over the screw heads. Randall Henderson, RV-6 N6R (~450 hrs) Portland, OR www.vanshomewing.org ________________________________ Message 59 ____________________________________ Time: 10:17:32 PM PST US From: WPAerial@aol.com Subject: RV-List: upholster ? --> RV-List message posted by: WPAerial@aol.com i need help in sewing the inter pannel in seats. how to keep them flat in the bottom of the seat and not stretch across the middle. jerry wilken RV6A N699WP