---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 02/01/03: 47 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:29 AM - First flight (Arthur and Christine) 2. 01:51 AM - Milan? (Alex Peterson) 3. 03:29 AM - Re: Pogo got it right (Jim Sears) 4. 03:56 AM - Re: STARTER ENABLE SWITCH ? (Jim Sears) 5. 04:35 AM - Re: STARTER ENABLE SWITCH ? (Kevin Horton) 6. 06:03 AM - Re: Pogo got it right (Tedd McHenry) 7. 06:51 AM - Re: STARTER ENABLE SWITCH ? (Meketa) 8. 07:07 AM - Re: First flight (Lenleg@aol.com) 9. 07:32 AM - Re: STARTER ENABLE SWITCH ? (RW) 10. 08:56 AM - Re: Instrument flying in RV's (Wes) 11. 08:58 AM - 6A-QB on Ebay (Konrad Werner) 12. 09:16 AM - Ergonomics - was "Starter Enable" (T Bronson) 13. 09:17 AM - Space shuttle (Jerry) 14. 09:29 AM - Fw: RV Yeller Pages (Vanremog@aol.com) 15. 09:30 AM - Re: First flight (C. Rabaut) 16. 09:34 AM - Columbia Tragedy (Ken Brooks) 17. 09:38 AM - ENABLE SWITCH (Jim Lane) 18. 09:41 AM - Fw: Pogo got it right (C. Rabaut) 19. 09:43 AM - Columbia Tragedy (Ken Brooks) 20. 10:03 AM - Re: Re: Instrument flying in RV's (Laird Owens) 21. 10:09 AM - Re: Milan? (Stein Bruch) 22. 10:20 AM - Oiling Drill and Rivet Gun (Ken Brooks) 23. 10:36 AM - Re: Fw: RV Yeller Pages (Matt Dralle) 24. 10:37 AM - Re: Pogo got it right (rv7a) 25. 11:21 AM - Re: ENABLE SWITCH (Jerry) 26. 11:45 AM - Re: STARTER ENABLE SWITCH ? (Joe & Jan Connell) 27. 11:47 AM - Re: Re: Instrument flying in RV's (Camille Hawthorne) 28. 11:52 AM - Re: Re: Instrument flying in RV's (Terence Gannon) 29. 12:06 PM - Re: Re: STARTER ENABLE SWITCH ? (Jerry Springer) 30. 12:25 PM - Re: Ergonomics - was "Starter Enable" (Randy Lervold) 31. 12:34 PM - Shuttle lost (Jim Jewell) 32. 12:36 PM - Re: Re: Instrument flying in RV's (Alex Peterson) 33. 01:47 PM - Re: Ergonomics - was "Starter Enable" (Larry Bowen) 34. 03:27 PM - rocket canopy (RVer273sb@aol.com) 35. 03:28 PM - Re: STARTER ENABLE SWITCH ? (kempthornes) 36. 04:52 PM - Re: STARTER ENABLE SWITCH ? (Dave Bristol) 37. 05:03 PM - FAA/TSA rule 14293 (Rob W M Shipley) 38. 05:17 PM - 1/16" rivets (GEORGE INMAN) 39. 05:32 PM - Re: First flight (Charles Rowbotham) 40. 05:32 PM - Panel cutting (Paul Brown) 41. 05:40 PM - Re: Columbia Tragedy (Dan&Patty Krueger) 42. 06:38 PM - Re: FAA/TSA rule 14293 (RV6 Flyer) 43. 06:55 PM - Re: STARTER ENABLE SWITCH ? (Doug Rozendaal) 44. 07:04 PM - >Re: Panel cutting (Oldsfolks@aol.com) 45. 07:16 PM - Re: Columbia Tragedy (Doug Rozendaal) 46. 08:49 PM - Re: ENABLE SWITCH (Meketa) 47. 09:09 PM - Re: Rudder trim (JDaniel343@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:29:19 AM PST US From: "Arthur and Christine" Subject: RV-List: First flight --> RV-List message posted by: "Arthur and Christine" RV-8 kit # 80988 ZK-KCA Flew for the first time this morning 1st Feb 03. Did a second flight this afternoon. 180hp HO-360-C1A converted to an updraft sump and Airflow Performance injection driving a Sensenich 85" pitch metal propeller. Weighs 506kg (1116lb) guess the paint is a bit heavey:) First flights were with near full tanks and a 20liter container of water as a passenger; to move the CofG towards the center of the range making the all up weight 694kg. Flight was off Taupo airfield temp about 24 deg C this afternoon QNH 1020hp climb was about 1400fpm @ 100kts. At 4000ft level flight with full throttle the rpm reached 2700 @ 140kts IAS (seems a bit slow for full rpm to me will check for pitot leaks tomorow). Flew a bit left wing light requiring full manual trim to remove roll, squeezed left aileron by hand and required 1/2 aileron trim on afternoon flight. Ball centered in cruise and both ailerons lined up with flaps when flying wings level. During extended ground runs (compass swing) cylinder temps were steadying at 340 deg F, in flight temps were around 290 to 310 at cruise and oil temp steady at 170 deg F. Sure was fun! Arthur Whitehead RV-8 flying YEEEE HAAAA ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:51:40 AM PST US From: "Alex Peterson" Subject: RV-List: Milan? --> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" Does anyone on the list live in Milan, Italy? Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN (currently in Milan) RV6-A N66AP 251 hours www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:29:30 AM PST US From: "Jim Sears" Subject: Re: RV-List: Pogo got it right --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Sears" > What is it about going on record that brings out the "anonymous" in a few and > renders the majority of people suddenly mute and stopped cold in their self > interested tracks? People are afraid big brother will remember those who have challenged them and will make it hard for them in the future. We're like sheep. There are those who make waves, or lead, and those who follow. I guess I'm one of those who's willing to stick his neck out on issues that impact me in a negative manner. I did comment on this docket item, just as I have on past items of this nature. It may very well come back and haunt me, one day; but, I sure feel a lot better about myself when I don't sit back and let everyone else do my speaking for me. Sometimes, people will get angry at me for it; but, I don't care, if I think I'm right. I'm always quick to apologize, if I'm not. Jim Sears in KY RV-6A N198JS EAA Tech Counselor do not archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:56:02 AM PST US From: "Jim Sears" Subject: Re: RV-List: STARTER ENABLE SWITCH ? --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Sears" > The best part about having functions on the grip is that the hands NEVER > have to leave the stick and throttle to start and fly the airplane. . > I think I understand George's reasoning for having his switches on the grip; but, I've seen a couple of those loaded up grips and wonder how in the world a pilot can remember all of those things and not have to look down at the stick to activate them when the grip is bristling with them. The wire cable coming out of the bottom of the stick is so stiff that it has to impact the stick's free movement. Hey, maybe it's the fighter pilot wannabe in us that makes us do these things that don't make sense to others. :-) I guess I'm a believer in the KISS method and cringe at some of the stuff I've seen on our RVs. I'm sure George will get it all figured out for himself and will enjoy his stick features; but, I sure do like the simplicity of just having a PTT switch on my RV's stick. On a really bumpy day, I wouldn't want more than that one switch on mine. In fact, sometimes it's even hard to keep held down to communicate when the bumps are rough enough. I can imagine what it'll be like to try to not hit switches when it gets really bumpy. Of course, a grip like his does have nice countours for the fingers to rest in; so, maybe the hand won't hit the switches unless he flys his like I do mine. I seldom have my hand on the grip except when I'm in the pattern. It's so much more comfortable to fly mine with my arm resting on my leg and fingers lightly touching the stick well below the grip. BTW, the grip on mine is a handle bar grip used on bicycles. It's a simple foam tube and feels so good to the touch. It was also a lot cheaper than the grip George describes. :-) BTW, I'm helping a gentleman build a RV-9A. He's an old B-26 pilot who flew a lot of missions in WWII and got used to a throttle quadrant in the center. Although he hasn't flown an airplane in about forty years, he decided he wanted a throttle quadrant in the center. There was no way to convince him that it wasn't a good idea. His airplane will have one. Would I put one on mine? No way. Although it will function just fine, it's ugly! If for some reason he can't do the test flights and wants me to do them, would I? Maybe not. It's not that we're building an unsafe airplane. It's just that his airplane is set up so different than mine that I'm afraid I might mix something up and mess up. Not a good time on a test flight. I also don't want to get so used to his set up that I mess up on mine. Something to think about. I'm getting older and don't have the fast reaction time that I used to have. Reaction time is very important on a test flight, when needed. Uh, oh. Here I go speaking out, again. Sorry, George. You do what's good for you. Don't pay attention to the rest of us. :-) Jim Sears in KY RV-6A N198JS EAA Tech Counselor do not archive ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:35:56 AM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: STARTER ENABLE SWITCH ? --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton >--> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" > > >I would like to share my thoughts about this, "starter on the stick" as well >as other, non-standard controls in general. Everything here is opinion, >fuel for discussion, and not intended as a personal attack directed at >anyone. Just some thoughts from someone who flies many different airplanes >on a regular basis. > >What happens to them when they get in the airplane and can't figure out how >to start the blasted thing? Even worse, what if fire goes out, and you, or >the "guest pilot" or new owner of your beautiful chariot, amid the confusion >of an emergency, forget which buttons, or what switches must be where, to >engage the starter? > >I know that some will say that experimental airplanes should not be trapped >by the status quo, true. However non-standard controls need to be >justified with performance improvements, and placarded as clearly as >possible for others who fly your airplane. > >My personal OPINION is that "starter on the stick" does not meet that >standard. Without the "enable switch" certainly there will be inadvertant >engagement, and with the switch, it will add to the workload when you want >to get cranking in a hurry. One message in this thread described a system >where the mag / distributor switches had to be in a certain configuratioin >to engage the starter. My OPINION is placarding that in an manner that >could be understood by a "guest pilot" would be difficult at best. Doug raises some very good points. I do have a start switch on my stick, so I can do hot starts on my fuel injected tail dragger with one hand on the throttle, and the other one holding the stick back (yes, I could probably hold the stick between my thighs, or have it tucked behind the left arm as it crosses the cockpit, but I prefer to have a good grip on it). I have a starter switch enable on the instrument panel to protect against inadvertently hitting the stick mounted start switch in flight. The switch on the instrument panel has three positions - down is stick mounted start switch disabled - middle is stick mounted start switch enabled - up (momentary position) is starter engage. So, I have two switches that can spin the starter - the one on the stick grip, and another one on the instrument panel that will be well labeled. So, I think it is possible to have a design that addresses Doug's very valid concerns, at the expense of some additional complication. -- Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:43 AM PST US From: Tedd McHenry Subject: Re: RV-List: Pogo got it right --> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry For the Americans on the list: Your history is full of leadership on this issue. "The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all." --Thomas Jefferson Good luck. --- Tedd McHenry Surrey, BC -6 wings DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:51:33 AM PST US From: "Meketa" Subject: Re: RV-List: STARTER ENABLE SWITCH ? --> RV-List message posted by: "Meketa" Hello Again Here we go guys. There is more than one way to properly configure a plane. I seems that it is always a side-by-side guy making these comments. If I had build a six, which almost happened, it would have foam grips with only a PTT switch on the grip. > I think I understand George's reasoning for having his switches on the grip; > but, I've seen a couple of those loaded up grips and wonder how in the world > a pilot can remember all of those things and not have to look down at the > stick to activate them when the grip is bristling with them. The wire cable > coming out of the bottom of the stick is so stiff that it has to impact the > stick's free movement Pretty poor arguments. The grip is no more complicated than any other switch configuration. Just remember how intimidating a simple aircraft panel seemed the first time you looked in one. I had a flight in a Citation 10 this week and it sure had a complex panel that would become second nature in short time. (50 minute flight to 35,000 feet with 570+mph ground speeds) I also flew with Jerry in a T6 Texan II simulator on monday. Things are complex, but it did not take long to get the feel for things. And the cable has NO effect on stick feel and is not an issue. > Hey, maybe it's the fighter pilot wannabe in us that makes us do these > things that don't make sense to others. :-) Maybe a little right on this one. I have taken real fighter pilots up (and a Thunderbird pilot with no civil aircraft time) in my 8 and all liked the grips and functions. > I guess I'm a believer in the KISS method and cringe at some of the stuff > I've seen on our RVs. I'm sure George will get it all figured out for > himself and will enjoy his stick features; but, I sure do like the > simplicity of just having a PTT switch on my RV's stick. On a really bumpy > day, I wouldn't want more than that one switch on mine. In fact, sometimes > it's even hard to keep held down to communicate when the bumps are rough > enough. I can imagine what it'll be like to try to not hit switches when it > gets really bumpy. Of course, a grip like his does have nice countours for > the fingers to rest in; so, maybe the hand won't hit the switches unless he > flys his like I do mine. I seldom have my hand on the grip except when I'm > in the pattern. It's so much more comfortable to fly mine with my arm > resting on my leg and fingers lightly touching the stick well below the > grip. The pattern and slow flight are the primary places the grip functions are needed. That is where it is nice to have hand on the controls. I am not saying that it is neccessary, just that it is nice. At other times hand positions are like any other RV. I have flown in very bumpy air and regularly fly aggresively. Accidently hitting a switch is not a problem with Infinity grips. There are others that may not be as good in this regard, but this is not what I have. > BTW, the grip on mine is a handle bar grip used on bicycles. It's a > simple foam tube and feels so good to the touch. It was also a lot cheaper > than the grip George describes. :-) A foam grip looks good in an RV6. In my opinion they do not look good in an RV8. Cheaper, who said airplanes where cheap. I made a habit of finding a way to afford anything I wanted in my plane. There were many compromises, but I have everything I wanted short of a Garmin 430 (was not available in 12 volt at the time) and an HSI. My goal in life is to never look back and wish I had done it differently, do it the way you want it the first time. > BTW, I'm helping a gentleman build a RV-9A. He's an old B-26 pilot who flew > a lot of missions in WWII and got used to a throttle quadrant in the center. > Although he hasn't flown an airplane in about forty years, he decided he > wanted a throttle quadrant in the center. There was no way to convince him > that it wasn't a good idea. His airplane will have one. Would I put one on > mine? No way. Although it will function just fine, it's ugly! If for > some reason he can't do the test flights and wants me to do them, would I? > Maybe not. It's not that we're building an unsafe airplane. It's just that > his airplane is set up so different than mine that I'm afraid I might mix > something up and mess up. Not a good time on a test flight. I also don't > want to get so used to his set up that I mess up on mine. Something to > think about. I'm getting older and don't have the fast reaction time that I > used to have. Reaction time is very important on a test flight, when > needed. I had always dreamed of building an RV and bought a Cessna 140 to get my license and see if would get the flying bug. One nice morning I flew to breakfast with friends and saw the RV that put the last nail in the coffin. It was a beautiful 6 with a left hand quadrand. The guy had just bought it and I now recognise it as Lyles RV6. Nothing wrong with that setup. When I told the guy I was going to build an RV he told me that I did not know what I was getting myself into. That asshole pissed me off enough to just go ahead and do it. > Uh, oh. Here I go speaking out, again. Sorry, George. You do what's good > for you. Don't pay attention to the rest of us. :-) Do not worry Jim and the rest of you. I am sure there are others out their with the same opinions as myself. Got to go now, have to take a shower and go to the airport. See yall at LaGrange. George Meketa RV8, N444TX, 2002 Oshkosh Bronze Lindy ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:07:29 AM PST US From: Lenleg@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: First flight --> RV-List message posted by: Lenleg@aol.com Arthur: Congratulations .... the fun now begins !!!!! Len Leggette RV-8A N901LL Greensboro, N.C. 51 hours !! ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:32:24 AM PST US From: "RW" Subject: Re: RV-List: STARTER ENABLE SWITCH ? --> RV-List message posted by: "RW" I put an Infinity stickgrip in my RV-8. My thinking was that some things would really be handy to control without having to remove my hand from the controls. Besides it looks cool. I didn't connect the starter because if I did get confused and grind on the starter when I think I am turning on instrument lights. I can control the flaps, instrument lights, trim, mic and wig-wag lights from my stick. It is something I could live without, but I like it and that is good enough for me. Dick White RV-8 N94DW Mini Old Crow Newport, OR ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:26 AM PST US From: "Wes" Subject: RV-List: Re: Instrument flying in RV's --> RV-List message posted by: "Wes" Hi Listers, First, my heart is profoundly saddened by the loss of the 7 astronauts aboard the Shuttle Columbia this morning. How tragic! However, I would still go up on the next flight given the chance. Hearts and prayers to the families who lost their loved ones. I have started instrument training and hope to transition to my RV-6A at some point in time (o-360 w/ CS prop). I am having some difficulty deciding/determining what the best speeds and power settings are for cruise, climb, decent, apporach, precision decent, non-precision decent, missed approach. I searched the archives, but couldn't really find what I was looking for. The closest was a post by Doug Weiler from MN where he had just started some instrument training with someone, but really did not have any rpm/mp settings to share with the list yet. I may not have used the right search string and the information may be out there. I would appreciate any comments on or off list as to what speeds, rpm/mp you are using if you are flying instruments with your RV, or the right search string to use to find it in the archives. Thanks in advance. Wes Hays whays@camalott.com RV-6A N844WB Winters, TX ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:58:50 AM PST US From: "Konrad Werner" Subject: RV-List: 6A-QB on Ebay --> RV-List message posted by: "Konrad Werner" Side by Siders, There is a RV-6A on Ebay that will close at 2:45 pm PST today (in case you know of someone interested in one). Here is the complete link to it: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category26428&item2401003661&rd1 The Reserve Price is "pretty much" met!! Good luck to anyone interested in bidding! Konrad DO NOT ARCHIVE (as this info is pretty much worthless by the time this day is over.) And in case you have not heard yet, turn on your TV to learn about the saddening news today. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:16:26 AM PST US From: "T Bronson" Subject: RV-List: Ergonomics - was "Starter Enable" --> RV-List message posted by: "T Bronson" As with most topics on this list, the "correct" approaches will vary with the situation. For example, if you fly several different airplanes, as Doug mentioned, it might be best to be as "standardized" as possible. If other people (partner, significant other) fly your airplane, that consideration may apply as well. On the other hand, if you are the only one who exercises the toy, and it's the only airplane you fly, you have a little more design latitude without risk of "negative transfer" of habit patterns. Your mission profile will be a factor as well. For example, I really like to fly formation, and plan to set my airplane up to minimize the need to remove hands from throttle or stick to change radio frequencies, turn strobes on/off, etc. A third consideration would be workload reduction. In my opinion, putting the radio stack on the right hand side of the panel in a RV-4 or -8 doesn't make sense, because to change freq's, one must either reach across the cockpit with the left hand, or: move left had to stick - right hand to radio - right hand back to stick - left hand back to throttle. Neither strikes me as "user friendly," and it's especially inconvenient in formation. One the other hand (pun intended), if you are right handed and plan to fly a lot of IFR, maybe your RV-8 should have a right-hand throttle/ left-hand stick, so your right hand is free to write down clearances on your kneeboard, etc. In this case, the radio stack might work best on the right. The main consideration should be safety, of course. Such things as having a fuel selector that points left to feed from the right tank, etc., is clearly "non-intuitive," as are switches that go different directions for "on." A task analysis may be worthwhile to develop awareness of what you will be doing with you hands and eyes during each phase of flight. Is there a possibility of inadvertant actuation of a switch, lever, etc.? Example: a friend, while getting acro instruction in his Stearman, initiated a roll to the left. In so doing, his right sleeve caught the release lever of his single seat belt buckle, releasing his belt. Fortunately, as he let go of the stick to hang on, his instructor finished the roll, maintaining positive g's, so my friend didn't leave the aircraft until back on the ground. The belts have been reversed now so the release lever points left, away from his right sleeve. Bottom line: consider safety of operation, standardization with other aircraft if applicable, convenience, failure modes, and mission profile, not to mention looking ahead to ease of maintenance. Tim Pittsburgh Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:17:24 AM PST US From: Jerry Subject: RV-List: Space shuttle --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Thoughts and prayers be with the family's of the shuttle crew. Jerry ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:29:02 AM PST US From: Vanremog@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Fwd: RV Yeller Pages --> RV-List message posted by: Vanremog@aol.com -GV (RV-6A N1GV 586hrs) From: Vanremog@aol.com Subject: Re: RV Yeller Pages In a message dated 1/29/2003 1:51:17 PM Pacific Standard Time, hartmann@sound.net writes: > I'm going to be taking my web page down in about a month. Hopefully I'll > be moving to the Seattle area later this year, and I've decided not to > renew the contract with my local ISP for service beyond the first of March. > > The Yeller Pages, if you would like to continue your effort will need a new > home. Fellow Builders/Fliers Mike Hartmann has been very gracious in hosting the RV Builders' Yeller Pages for the past 6 or so years. As his text above informs me, he will be disconnecting for a move. Are there any studly webmasters (Bill VonDane, Doug Reeves?? or anyone else) who would care to be the host of the Yeller Pages? It carries on the proud tradition of builders helping builders. I would be happy to continue being the editor and would just send you the revised HTML file from time to time for posting. On this terrible day may we all be appreciative of the sacrifice made by all of the brave crewmen of the Columbia. May they know only blue skies forever. As I was growing up, I entertained ideas of being among them but would never have been able to pass the rigid physical requirements. They are the best of us. -GV (RV-6A N1GV 586hrs) In a message dated 1/29/2003 1:51:17 PM Pacific Standard Time, hartmann@sound.net writes: I'm going to be taking my web page down in about a month. Hopefully I'll be moving to the Seattle area later this year, and I've decided not to renew the contract with my local ISP for service beyond the first of March. The Yeller Pages, if you would like to continue your effort will need a new home. Fellow Builders/Fliers Mike Hartmann has been very gracious in hosting the RV Builders' Yeller Pages for the past 6 or so years. As his text above informs me, he will be disconnecting for a move. Are there any studly webmasters (Bill VonDane, Doug Reeves?? or anyone else) who would care to be the host of the Yeller Pages? It carries on the proud tradition of builders helping builders. I would be happy to continue being the editor and would just send you the revised HTML file from time to time for posting. On this terrible day may we all be appreciative of the sacrifice made by all of the brave crewmen of the Columbia. May they know only blue skies forever. As I was growing up, I entertained ideas of being among them but would never have been able to pass the rigid physical requirements. They are the best of us. -GV (RV-6A N1GV 586hrs) ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:30:52 AM PST US From: "C. Rabaut" Subject: Re: RV-List: First flight --> RV-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" Atta Boy Arthur... now take the Lady up! Chuck do not archive ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:34:10 AM PST US From: "Ken Brooks" Subject: RV-List: Columbia Tragedy --> RV-List message posted by: "Ken Brooks" Watching the coverage of this national disaster on television, I was struck with the ironic twist of ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:01 AM PST US From: "Jim Lane" Subject: RV-List: ENABLE SWITCH --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Lane" To those who were kind enough to recommend a specific covered switch, I appreciate your help. I still have a couple of questions about how to wire the relay to the key switch to avoid engaging the starter when the key is in the off position. I found a cover for a rocker switch in Wicks catalog that I can use with a toggle switch. In asking for a particular switch others liked, I did not intend to start a war over stick grip functions. I think it is pretty well accepted to install trim on the stick, and I believe having a toggle switch there for flaps there adds to convenience and arguably even safety. The only objection I have to electric pitch trim in the RV is that it does not co-exist with a manual trim. As for an engine start momentary button on the stick, it is in addition to the key switch. The key switch is NOT disabled when the engine start button on the stick is disabled. I really cannot see how adding landing light and electric fuel pump buttons on the stick can jeopardize the safety of flight. After all I do not have a machine gun on my RV that I could fire by mistake! For those of you that do, I encourage you not to install a button for them on the stick grip! Jim ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:41:22 AM PST US From: "C. Rabaut" Subject: Fw: RV-List: Pogo got it right --> RV-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" Rick, Truly our society, like all the rest, is largely populated by sheep. When things are good they bah, when things are bad they bleat. God knows how or when the brave take up arms to save the flock. http://dms.dot.gov/ Anyone else care to be heard... http://dms.dot.gov/ There is a place http://dms.dot.gov/ a forum http://dms.dot.gov/ yes http://dms.dot.gov/ you can make a difference. http://dms.dot.gov/ Do not pass up this opportunity to be counted. Go To http://dms.dot.gov/ Chuck do not archive http://dms.dot.gov/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Rick Galati Subject: RV-List: Pogo got it right > --> RV-List message posted by: "Rick Galati" > > > Lets see, there > are......600,000 plus, licensed pilots in the USA? I'm sure > that more than one participant of this list knows the precise number > and any one of a usual number of suspects are predictably quick to > offer up a dutiful correction. Yet, where is that glibness when a new rule > visits the Republic that makes a mockery of due process, and singles out FAA > certificate holders for special Orwellian consideration? Oh, we can > read lots of whining and complaining about FAA-2003-14293 on this board and > elsewhere. The usual passionate arguments are oft repeated to a rapt > and righteous choir of the like-minded. Mostly this staple consists > of boiler plate fodder including such blue-plate specials such as > constitutional guarantees, due process, the well known price of giving up > liberty for temporary security, privileges versus rights..... heady stuff > like that. But an all too human condition is playing itself out > among our brethren yet again. What is occurring within our flying > fraternity is certainly not unique to any special interest group such as those > who participate in this forum, but nonetheless is indicative of a larger > American condition. Out of 600,000 pilots, you would think the > vast majority would have at least some small interest in preserving their > freedom of flight that goes beyond engaging in casual, if at times lively chit > chat among the like-minded. This is the impression one can certainly > get based on some of the more outrageous sound bites masquerading as outrage we > can read over and over again. A few minutes ago, when I lasted > checked http://dms.dot.gov/ , a > miniscule and pathetic fraction of only 138 souls out of Six Hundred > Thousand licensed pilots have bothered to MAKE THEIR VOICE OFFICIALLY HEARD in a > governmental forum where that personal comment can at least in some small way > count for something. What is it about going on record that brings out > the "anonymous" in a few and renders the majority of people suddenly mute and > stopped cold in their self interested tracks? > > Rick Galati > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:43:02 AM PST US From: "Ken Brooks" Subject: RV-List: Columbia Tragedy --> RV-List message posted by: "Ken Brooks" Please excuse the premature sending of my previous post. Please do not archive that one or this. Watching the television coverage of the loss of the shuttle and crew, I was struck by the close-up video footage by those who taped the event. Knowing full well how tragic it was, I was still struck by the "beauty" of what I was watching -- like a shooting star or a bright comet, things that have always held my fascination and awe. It's that same wonder and awe that made me want to fly airplanes -- the spectacular views, the sensations of flight, the views of the clouds from above -- the list goes on and on. It is indeed an unforgiving environment we pilots work and play in. My prayers go out to the astronauts and their families. They are my heroes. They've slipped the surly bonds of earth and now may they truly be touching the face of God. Ken Brooks Roscoe, IL ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:03:37 AM PST US From: Laird Owens Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Instrument flying in RV's --> RV-List message posted by: Laird Owens Wes, I'm right in the middle of my IFR training (C-172). I haven't flown all of the conditions you ask in the RV, but I have a few for my RV-6 O-360/CS. My enroute 55% cruise is 2350/19" (I think that's about 7 ghp, but not sure) gives me 138 kts indicated/157 kts true Enroute decent at 500 fpm at 138 indicated is 2350/15.5" 1000 fpm at 138 indicated is 2350/13" Approach decent at 90 kts indicated at 500 fpm is 2500/13" I don't have a 90 kt level speed setting in front of me at the minute. I'd shoot the missed at my normal climb which is 2500/25". Hope that helps. Laird RV-6 SoCal Thoughts and prayers to the shuttle crew and families as well. >--> RV-List message posted by: "Wes" > >Hi Listers, > >First, my heart is profoundly saddened by the loss of the 7 astronauts >aboard the Shuttle Columbia this morning. How tragic! However, I would still >go up on the next flight given the chance. Hearts and prayers to the >families who lost their loved ones. > >I have started instrument training and hope to transition to my RV-6A at >some point in time (o-360 w/ CS prop). I am having some difficulty >deciding/determining what the best speeds and power settings are for cruise, >climb, decent, apporach, precision decent, non-precision decent, missed >approach. > >I searched the archives, but couldn't really find what I was looking for. >The closest was a post by Doug Weiler from MN where he had just started some >instrument training with someone, but really did not have any rpm/mp >settings to share with the list yet. I may not have used the right search >string and the information may be out there. > >I would appreciate any comments on or off list as to what speeds, rpm/mp you >are using if you are flying instruments with your RV, or the right search >string to use to find it in the archives. > >Thanks in advance. > >Wes Hays >whays@camalott.com >RV-6A >N844WB >Winters, TX > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:09:40 AM PST US From: "Stein Bruch" Subject: RE: RV-List: Milan? --> RV-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" Hi Alex, I'm assuming you're still in Milan! How's the weather there, I just arrived home last night to a lot of snow. Anyway, hope things are going well. I'm off to Athens Greece tomorrow, then to Amsterdam and home again on Friday. Cheers, Stein. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Alex Peterson Subject: RV-List: Milan? --> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" Does anyone on the list live in Milan, Italy? Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN (currently in Milan) RV6-A N66AP 251 hours www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:20:11 AM PST US From: "Ken Brooks" Subject: RV-List: Oiling Drill and Rivet Gun --> RV-List message posted by: "Ken Brooks" From the air compressor, I run a 50' hose to a combination water separator/oiler. From that, I have a separate 25' (red) hose to which I attach the drill or rivet gun. If I don't want to get any oil mist on anything, like when I use a blower attachment, I disconnect the 50' hose upline from the oiler and attach the blower head directly to it. Any tools I want to keep oiled I attach to the end of the red hose. By the way, the water separator/oiler is mounted under the workbench in a wooden bracket/shelf. If anyone would like a photo of the setup, e-mail be offline and I'll send it to you. Ken Brooks Roscoe, IL ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:36:03 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Re: RV-List: Fwd: RV Yeller Pages --> RV-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Hi GV, I would be happy to host the Yeller Pages on the Matronics servers. I already have links on the various List web sites. I'll write to you off list and see what we can work out... Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Admin. At 09:27 AM 2/1/2003 Saturday, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Vanremog@aol.com > > >-GV (RV-6A N1GV 586hrs) > >From: Vanremog@aol.com >Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 12:16:29 EST >Subject: Re: RV Yeller Pages >To: hartmann@sound.net > > >In a message dated 1/29/2003 1:51:17 PM Pacific Standard Time, >hartmann@sound.net writes: > > > I'm going to be taking my web page down in about a month. Hopefully I'll > > be moving to the Seattle area later this year, and I've decided not to > > renew the contract with my local ISP for service beyond the first of March. > > > > The Yeller Pages, if you would like to continue your effort will need a new > > home. > >Fellow Builders/Fliers > >Mike Hartmann has been very gracious in hosting the RV Builders' Yeller Pages >for the past 6 or so years. As his text above informs me, he will be >disconnecting for a move. Are there any studly webmasters (Bill VonDane, >Doug Reeves?? or anyone else) who would care to be the host of the Yeller >Pages? It carries on the proud tradition of builders helping builders. > >I would be happy to continue being the editor and would just send you the >revised HTML file from time to time for posting. > > >On this terrible day may we all be appreciative of the sacrifice made by all >of the brave crewmen of the Columbia. May they know only blue skies forever. > >As I was growing up, I entertained ideas of being among them but would never >have been able to pass the rigid physical requirements. They are the best of >us. > >-GV (RV-6A N1GV 586hrs) > > >In a message dated 1/29/2003 1:51:17 PM Pacific Standard Time, >hartmann@sound.net writes: > > >I'm going to be taking my web page down in about a month. Hopefully I'll > >be moving to the Seattle area later this year, and I've decided not to > >renew the contract with my local ISP for service beyond the first of March. > > >The Yeller Pages, if you would like to continue your effort will need a new > >home. > > >Fellow Builders/Fliers > > >Mike Hartmann has been very gracious in hosting the RV Builders' Yeller >Pages for the past 6 or so years. As his text above informs me, he will be >disconnecting for a move. Are there any studly webmasters (Bill VonDane, >Doug Reeves?? or anyone else) who would care to be the host of the Yeller >Pages? It carries on the proud tradition of builders helping builders. > > >I would be happy to continue being the editor and would just send you the >revised HTML file from time to time for posting. > > >On this terrible day may we all be appreciative of the sacrifice made by >all of the brave crewmen of the Columbia. May they know only blue skies >forever. > > >As I was growing up, I entertained ideas of being among them but would >never have been able to pass the rigid physical requirements. They are the >best of us. > > >-GV (RV-6A N1GV 586hrs) > > Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft There's three sides to every story, babe. There's your's; there's mine; and there's the cold, hard truth... Don Henley Long Way Home, 1982 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:37:39 AM PST US From: rv7a Subject: Re: RV-List: Pogo got it right --> RV-List message posted by: rv7a I waited a bit. Should have submitted my comment days ago. It is there now. I hestitated before stuck my head up. I glad to hear that our AOPA legal support is responding. Joe Edwards On Fri, 31 Jan 2003, Mark Phillips wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: Mark Phillips > > Thanks, Rick- unfortunately sometimes I'm afraid we ARE the enemy... > Y'all git off yer butts and get them comments in!!!!!!! > > Mark - do not archive > > Rick Galati wrote: > > > > Lets see, there > > are......600,000 plus, licensed pilots in the USA? > > > A few minutes ago, when I lasted checked http://dms.dot.gov/ , a miniscule and > pathetic fraction of only 138 souls out of Six Hundred Thousand licensed pilots > have bothered to MAKE THEIR VOICE OFFICIALLY HEARD in a governmental forum where > that personal comment can at least in some small way count for something. > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:21:21 AM PST US From: Jerry Subject: Re: RV-List: ENABLE SWITCH --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Jim Lane wrote: > >I really cannot see how adding landing light and electric fuel pump buttons on >the stick can jeopardize the safety of flight. After all I do not have a machine >gun on my RV that I could fire by mistake! For those of you that do, I encourage >you not to install a button for them on the stick grip! > > Jim > I cannot understand how having any of those things on the stick CAN add to the safety of the flight IMO it is stupid to have starter buttons, landing lights etc. on the stick. I do have elevator trim and push to talk on mine but see no godd reason for the others. But then I guess I have been flying UN safe for almost 40 years. Remember we are building and flying recreational vehicles not 747s. Just my opinion and worth what you paid for it. $0.00 Jerry do not archive ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:45:00 AM PST US From: "Joe & Jan Connell" Subject: RV-List: Re: STARTER ENABLE SWITCH ? --> RV-List message posted by: "Joe & Jan Connell" Hi Folks, I'd like to add another thought regarding starter and ignition switch wiring. Aren't there occasions where one would want to be able to crank the engine with the ignition off? Compression checks is one that comes to mind. Maybe cranking the engine after it is flooded could be another. Just a thought... Joe Connell Stewartville, MN RV-9A N95JJ Working on QB fuselage ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 11:47:05 AM PST US From: "Camille Hawthorne" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Instrument flying in RV's --> RV-List message posted by: "Camille Hawthorne" Fly the approach at an airspeed that puts you in Category A. ie. 90 kts or 105 mph. this is a nice usually stable airspeed that allows your brain to stay ahead of the acft, which is immensely important. Jepp charts (my preference) will give you the fpm descent rate at certain airspeeds, (for ILS approaches) 90 kts is one of these, plus, gov and Jepp plates give you time from FAF to MAP for 90 kts. You don't want to be doing mental gymnastics while on approach in IMC, so 90 kts will make this easier on you. I train instrument pilots in Piper Archers which have an O360, 180hp motor. These will hold 90 kts in level flight at 2100 rpm, and about a 500 fpm descent between 1500-1700 rpm. You'll have to experiment to find the rpm settings for your aircraft. I'm sure you'll want to find these for a prop full forward setting, and I'll bet they'll be lower for an RV due to it's slipperiness. You might even have to use a notch of flaps to achieve it. I'm sure that an RV will require much more power/speed planning in order to preserve the engine and get the speed down where you want it. Keep in mind that weather conditions (especially wind) will require you to fine tune on each approach. Find these settings and be comfortable with them well before beginning your approach training. I've seen instrument students harmed by starting approach training before the attitude/speed basics were thoroughly mastered. Find rpm setting for: 90 kts level 90 kts 500 fpm descent 100 kts level flight on feeder route segment of approach Cammie Hawthorne CFII RV7a wings > I have started instrument training and hope to transition to my RV-6A at > some point in time (o-360 w/ CS prop). I am having some difficulty > deciding/determining what the best speeds and power settings are for cruise, > climb, decent, apporach, precision decent, non-precision decent, missed > approach. > > I searched the archives, but couldn't really find what I was looking for. > The closest was a post by Doug Weiler from MN where he had just started some > instrument training with someone, but really did not have any rpm/mp > settings to share with the list yet. I may not have used the right search > string and the information may be out there. > > I would appreciate any comments on or off list as to what speeds, rpm/mp you > are using if you are flying instruments with your RV, or the right search > string to use to find it in the archives. > > Thanks in advance. > > Wes Hays > whays@camalott.com > RV-6A > N844WB > Winters, TX > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:27 AM PST US From: "Terence Gannon" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Instrument flying in RV's --> RV-List message posted by: "Terence Gannon" Wes -- I would say that the gentlemen that has the most experience IFR in RVs is a fella by the name of Fred Stucklen. I believe he is on the list, but if not, perhaps someone can help out with an email address. I really think he's the man! Cheers... Terry in Calgary RV-6 S/N 24414 "Wings" -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wes Subject: RV-List: Re: Instrument flying in RV's --> RV-List message posted by: "Wes" Hi Listers, First, my heart is profoundly saddened by the loss of the 7 astronauts aboard the Shuttle Columbia this morning. How tragic! However, I would still go up on the next flight given the chance. Hearts and prayers to the families who lost their loved ones. I have started instrument training and hope to transition to my RV-6A at some point in time (o-360 w/ CS prop). I am having some difficulty deciding/determining what the best speeds and power settings are for cruise, climb, decent, apporach, precision decent, non-precision decent, missed approach. I searched the archives, but couldn't really find what I was looking for. The closest was a post by Doug Weiler from MN where he had just started some instrument training with someone, but really did not have any rpm/mp settings to share with the list yet. I may not have used the right search string and the information may be out there. I would appreciate any comments on or off list as to what speeds, rpm/mp you are using if you are flying instruments with your RV, or the right search string to use to find it in the archives. Thanks in advance. Wes Hays whays@camalott.com RV-6A N844WB Winters, TX direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 12:06:38 PM PST US From: Jerry Springer Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: STARTER ENABLE SWITCH ? --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer Compression checks are not *usally* done by cranking engine. Jerry Joe & Jan Connell wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Joe & Jan Connell" > > Hi Folks, > > I'd like to add another thought regarding starter and ignition > switch wiring. Aren't there occasions where one would want > to be able to crank the engine with the ignition off? Compression > checks is one that comes to mind. Maybe cranking the engine > after it is flooded could be another. Just a thought... > > Joe Connell > Stewartville, MN > RV-9A N95JJ > Working on QB fuselage > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 12:25:47 PM PST US From: "Randy Lervold" Subject: Re: RV-List: Ergonomics - was "Starter Enable" --> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Lervold" > A third consideration would be workload reduction. In my opinion, putting > the radio stack on the right hand side of the panel in a RV-4 or -8 doesn't > make sense, because to change freq's, one must either reach across the > cockpit with the left hand, or: move left had to stick - right hand to radio > - right hand back to stick - left hand back to throttle. Neither strikes me > as "user friendly," and it's especially inconvenient in formation. Tim, ever flown a -4 or -8? I fly quite a bit of formation and have my radio stack on the right http://www.rv-8.com/Pictures/DSCN0025.JPG and am right handed. The panels on these planes are so small that reaching across really isn't a big deal. Also, changing hands on the stick is no problem either. I use both techniques with my radios. If you are right handed you will likely find that you do not have the fine motor control with your left hand to deal with the small knobs and buttons modern avionics have. Also consider it is usually a slightly bumpy environment making the buttons a moving target. Having owned a Citabria before building my -8 I already knew what worked for me and how I wanted my panel. No regrets, it works fine in real life. food for thought, Randy Lervold RV-8, 290 hrs www.rv-8.com ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 12:34:47 PM PST US From: "Jim Jewell" Subject: RV-List: Shuttle lost --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" We have lost some of our Citizens of the World today. If any Citizens anywhere on this globe can be called Citizens of the World, all of the Astronauts no matter the country of origin truly deserve this title. All of These brave souls have offered up the benefit of there their personal sense of adventure, pride in accomplishment, and their commitment to the betterment of our global community no matter the potential personal cost. Now we all must share the loss of seven more of these fine people. We cannot pretend to know the full impact of the loss to their families and friends. We can only offer them our hearts and hopes We can just barely imagine the benefit to the global community that the seven souls lost today so freely and gladly contributed. These Worlds Astronauts in paying life's ultimate price pass the baton and go on to join the Citizens of the Universe that have gone before. Into the unknown and on to the future. I join with you all in wishing them, Bon Voyage. Jim, do not archive ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 12:36:16 PM PST US From: "Alex Peterson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Instrument flying in RV's --> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" > I have started instrument training and hope to transition to > my RV-6A at some point in time (o-360 w/ CS prop). I am > having some difficulty deciding/determining what the best > speeds and power settings are for cruise, climb, decent, > apporach, precision decent, non-precision decent, missed approach. > > I searched the archives, but couldn't really find what I was > looking for. The closest was a post by Doug Weiler from MN > where he had just started some instrument training with > someone, That someone is me. You'll obviously have to go out and figure out all parameters for your plane, but here are my thoughts with something like 20 hours into the IFR training. First, my instructor (mentioned above) has said if one can control altitude in the RV's +/-100', he/she will be quite qualified to fly IFR in most planes. My plane is nicely in the middle of the CG range, and is quite stable in pitch; however, altitude management is by far the most challenging thing I've encountered so far in the training. I see this as a benefit - I will learn more precise control than I would with a Cessna, for example. Second, power settings for level flight at 90 KIAS are absurdly low, and indeed, my engine will begin to heat up at those speeds level. I suspect 90 knots takes something like 2300 RPM and 10 to 12 inches MAP. Most of our training, in other than cruise conditions and stalls, has been something like 2300 RPM and 17 inches, which generally delivers about 115 to 120 KIAS. We have not generally been slowing to under 110 to 120 KIAS until on extended downwind or equivalent, but again, I'm early into the program. With a fixed prop, this would have to be modified. Climbs have been the same as VFR, 24 squared, 120 KIAS. In hot conditions, I will increase the speed to 130 or more, depending on CHT's. I really can't imagine that there is a "correct" set of speeds; speeds need to simply be developed based upon where one is in their training and how the plane feels at those speeds. Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN RV6-A N66AP 251 hours www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 01:47:30 PM PST US From: "Larry Bowen" Subject: RE: RV-List: Ergonomics - was "Starter Enable" --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" I too thought long and hard about this when laying out my panel. I've read your article on the subject, Randy. It was great food for thought. Nontheless, I decided to try to put as many buttons on the left side so they could be operated by my left/throttle hand. I am normally right-handed, but don't anticipate a problem. (I have the starter on the stick too.) I suspect there is more than one right answer....... - Larry Bowen RV-8 wires Larry@BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com 2003 - The year of flight! > -----Original Message----- > > Tim, ever flown a -4 or -8? I fly quite a bit of formation > and have my radio stack on the right > http://www.rv-8.com/Pictures/DSCN0025.JPG > and am right handed. The panels on these planes are so small > that reaching across really isn't a big deal. Also, changing > hands on the stick is no problem either. I use both > techniques with my radios. If you are right handed you will > likely find that you do not have the fine motor control with > your left hand to deal with the small knobs and buttons > modern avionics have. Also consider it is usually a slightly > bumpy environment making the buttons a moving target. Having > owned a Citabria before building my -8 I already knew what > worked for me and how I wanted my panel. No regrets, it works > fine in real life. > > food for thought, > Randy Lervold > RV-8, 290 hrs > www.rv-8.com ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 03:27:24 PM PST US From: RVer273sb@aol.com Subject: RV-List: rocket canopy --> RV-List message posted by: RVer273sb@aol.com Have a complete rocket slider for sale.. contact Lloyd Land at Land391957@aol.com or 303-536-0810 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 03:28:22 PM PST US From: kempthornes Subject: Re: RV-List: STARTER ENABLE SWITCH ? --> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes At 07:38 AM 1/31/2003 -0800, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Dave Bristol > I contend that "non standard" control systems are a definite safety hazard. Ah, yes. The good old standard control systems. Are these what we see on standard category aircraft like the Boeing 747 or the Beech Starship? Or are they more like those on the Piper Cherokee or the RV4. Surely not like those on the Huey Cobra. What on earth are you talking about... 'standard'? K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne RV6-a N7HK flying! PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA) ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 04:52:20 PM PST US From: Dave Bristol Subject: Re: RV-List: STARTER ENABLE SWITCH ? --> RV-List message posted by: Dave Bristol Ooooo.. seem to have struck a nerve there! You know exactly what I'm talking about Hal - go back and read the thread again - I think perhaps you were not paying attention. Dave do not archive kempthornes wrote: > > Ah, yes. The good old standard control systems. Are these what we see on > standard category aircraft like the Boeing 747 or the Beech Starship? Or > are they more like those on the Piper Cherokee or the RV4. Surely not like > those on the Huey Cobra. > > What on earth are you talking about... 'standard'? > > K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne > RV6-a N7HK flying! > PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA) > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 05:03:29 PM PST US From: "Rob W M Shipley" Subject: RV-List: FAA/TSA rule 14293 --> RV-List message posted by: "Rob W M Shipley" Rick Galati wrote the following:- Lets see, there are......600,000 plus, licensed pilots in the USA? I'm sure that more than one participant of this list knows the precise number and any one of a usual number of suspects are predictably quick to offer up a dutiful correction. Yet, where is that glibness when a new rule visits the Republic that makes a mockery of due process, and singles out FAA certificate holders for special Orwellian consideration? Oh, we can read lots of whining and complaining about FAA-2003-14293 on this board and elsewhere. The usual passionate arguments are oft repeated to a rapt and righteous choir of the like-minded. Mostly this staple consists of boiler plate fodder including such blue-plate specials such as constitutional guarantees, due process, the well known price of giving up liberty for temporary security, privileges versus rights..... heady stuff like that. But an all too human condition is playing itself out among our brethren yet again. What is occurring within our flying fraternity is certainly not unique to any special interest group such as those who participate in this forum, but nonetheless is indicative of a larger American condition. Out of 600,000 pilots, you would think the vast majority would have at least some small interest in preserving their freedom of flight that goes beyond engaging in casual, if at times lively chit chat among the like-minded. This is the impression one can certainly get based on some of the more outrageous sound bites masquerading as outrage we can read over and over again. A few minutes ago, when I lasted checked http://dms.dot.gov/ , a miniscule and pathetic fraction of only 138 souls out of Six Hundred Thousand licensed pilots have bothered to MAKE THEIR VOICE OFFICIALLY HEARD in a governmental forum where that personal comment can at least in some small way count for something. What is it about going on record that brings out the "anonymous" in a few and renders the majority of people suddenly mute and stopped cold in their self interested tracks? Well folks this woke me up. I've sort of thought that I should add my name to the thousands of outraged pilots writing in but what can one voice do? (Remember the Florida election votes!!!). Pilots are certainly bright intelligent people - are we lazy sheep as well? Rick's right we really need to do this. I just paid a visit to http://dms.dot.gov to make my comments. It's easy. Go to the site, click on "Simple Search" enter 14293 in the docket number window, and post your comments on how you feel about possibly losing your certificates without any due process or official revue. ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 05:17:50 PM PST US From: "GEORGE INMAN" Subject: RV-List: 1/16" rivets --> RV-List message posted by: "GEORGE INMAN" I purchased some miniature #6 platenuts The rivet holes are only !/16" , to small for a 3/32" rivet.I do not want to drill them out to 3/32" because it does not leave much metal to hold the rivet Does anyone know where to buy 1/16" countersunk rivets?? GEORGE H. INMAN ghinman@attcanada.ca ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 05:32:36 PM PST US From: "Charles Rowbotham" Subject: Re: RV-List: First flight --> RV-List message posted by: "Charles Rowbotham" Arthur, CONGRATULATIONS and WELL DONE !! Chuck & Dave Rowbotham RV-8A >From: "Arthur and Christine" >Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com >To: >Subject: RV-List: First flight >Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2003 22:27:13 +1300 > >--> RV-List message posted by: "Arthur and Christine" > >RV-8 kit # 80988 ZK-KCA > >Flew for the first time this morning 1st Feb 03. >Did a second flight this afternoon. > > >Sure was fun! > >Arthur Whitehead >RV-8 flying YEEEE HAAAA > > ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 05:32:36 PM PST US From: "Paul Brown" Subject: RV-List: Panel cutting --> RV-List message posted by: "Paul Brown" I know some of you guys have done this, and I need to know how since I didn't build my RV. I plan to install a new radio and need to cut out a larger hole. What tool would be the best (easiest) to use without removing the panel? ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 05:40:40 PM PST US From: Dan&Patty Krueger Subject: Re: RV-List: Columbia Tragedy --> RV-List message posted by: Dan&Patty Krueger Ken Brooks wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Ken Brooks" > > > Watching the television coverage of the loss of the shuttle and crew, I > was struck by the close-up video footage by those who taped the event. > Knowing full well how tragic it was, I was still struck by the "beauty" > of what I was watching -- like a shooting star or a bright comet, things > that have always held my fascination and awe. It's that same wonder and > awe that made me want to fly airplanes -- the spectacular views, the > sensations of flight, the views of the clouds from above -- the list > goes on and on. It is indeed an unforgiving environment we pilots work > and play in. My prayers go out to the astronauts and their families. > They are my heroes. They've slipped the surly bonds of earth and now > may they truly be touching the face of God. > Thank you Ken I do not think anyone can express our feelings better than you have. Dan Krueger Do not archive ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 06:38:26 PM PST US From: "RV6 Flyer" Subject: Re: RV-List: FAA/TSA rule 14293 --> RV-List message posted by: "RV6 Flyer" DO NOT ARCHIVE It took 3 days for my comments to post. When you add comments, it will take some time for it to get processed. Please post your comments. Thanks. Gary A. Sobek "My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell, 1,248 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA http://SoCAL_WVAF.rvproject.com ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Rob W M Shipley" Subject: RV-List: FAA/TSA rule 14293 --> RV-List message posted by: "Rob W M Shipley" Rick Galati wrote the following:- Lets see, there are......600,000 plus, licensed pilots in the USA? I'm sure that more than one participant of this list knows the precise number and any one of a usual number of suspects are predictably quick to offer up a dutiful correction. Yet, where is that glibness when a new rule visits the Republic that makes a mockery of due process, and singles out FAA certificate holders for special Orwellian consideration? Oh, we can read lots of whining and complaining about FAA-2003-14293 on this board and elsewhere. The usual passionate arguments are oft repeated to a rapt and righteous choir of the like-minded. Mostly this staple consists of boiler plate fodder including such blue-plate specials such as constitutional guarantees, due process, the well known price of giving up liberty for temporary security, privileges versus rights..... heady stuff like that. But an all too human condition is playing itself out among our brethren yet again. What is occurring within our flying fraternity is certainly not unique to any special interest group such as those who participate in this forum, but nonetheless is indicative of a larger American condition. Out of 600,000 pilots, you would think the vast majority would have at least some small interest in preserving their freedom of flight that goes beyond engaging in casual, if at times lively chit chat among the like-minded. This is the impression one can certainly get based on some of the more outrageous sound bites masquerading as outrage we can read over and over again. A few minutes ago, when I lasted checked http://dms.dot.gov/ , a miniscule and pathetic fraction of only 138 souls out of Six Hundred Thousand licensed pilots have bothered to MAKE THEIR VOICE OFFICIALLY HEARD in a governmental forum where that personal comment can at least in some small way count for something. What is it about going on record that brings out the "anonymous" in a few and renders the majority of people suddenly mute and stopped cold in their self interested tracks? Well folks this woke me up. I've sort of thought that I should add my name to the thousands of outraged pilots writing in but what can one voice do? (Remember the Florida election votes!!!). Pilots are certainly bright intelligent people - are we lazy sheep as well? Rick's right we really need to do this. I just paid a visit to http://dms.dot.gov to make my comments. It's easy. Go to the site, click on "Simple Search" enter 14293 in the docket number window, and post your comments on how you feel about possibly losing your certificates without any due process or official revue. ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 06:55:18 PM PST US From: "Doug Rozendaal" Subject: Re: RV-List: STARTER ENABLE SWITCH ? --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" Yippe!!! We got a good one going, not to the standard of T/W vs Trike, or Wheel Landing vs 3 point, but at least a discussion. In case anybody cares, my objective is not to change anyone's mind that is already made up, ( I married a Democrat, and she is still a Democrat) my mission is to cause those who haven't decided to ponder which way they want to go on these kind of issues. If you have already put your "starter on the stick" I would hope you would defend your descision vigorously. But if you did, and realize that it was not the greatest idea you ever had, and are willing to share that, even better yet. For those of you are wondering which way to go, if this little discussion caused you to think about your descision, then my mission was successful. Did I mention, IMHO, simple and standard is best? The best is when people share ideas that accomodate both ideas. For instance, Kevin's idea, a starter on the stick that preserves a starter switch on the panel that, in a panic, a guest pilot, would still just hit the starter switch on the dash is a great solution. That is what discussions do, propogate great ideas. Again I say, Mission accomplished. Just to stoke the fire, Kevin, we won the War with a pointy nose fighter that has 1500 hp and a tailwheel with a starter switch, primer switch, mag switch, mixture lever, and throttle lever that all have to be moved at exactly the right time and in exactly the right order to get started, and all this without a starter button on the stick. When the Mustang is hot, it makes starting the Lycoming seem like a sweetheart. If you screw it up, you get a stack fire, AKA a weinie roast, with fire about 2 feet above the cowling, praying that your battery doesn't give up before it starts. I am sure Kevin, given the opportunity, you would have no problem. ;-) Stirring the pot, I remain.... Tailwinds, Doug Rozendaal RV-4 manual trim, with only a PTT on the stick. ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 07:04:37 PM PST US From: Oldsfolks@aol.com Subject: RV-List: >Re: Panel cutting --> RV-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com I would use a hacksaw - the type which clamps a blade into a handle which is straight with the line of the blade. You can enlarge the cut-out this way. You should tape plastic over all the instruments below the location to prevent cuttings getting into them. Be careful to remove the plastic without spilling the cuttings. Good luck, Bob Olds A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor RV-4 , N1191X , Flying Now Charleston, Arkansas "Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers" ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 07:16:00 PM PST US From: "Doug Rozendaal" Subject: Re: RV-List: Columbia Tragedy --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" On a sad day we should remember not only those who perished today in Columbia. We should remember our ancestors, the founders who conceived this great nation, and those whose names are on the streets at Edwards Air Force base who paid with blood for the knowledge that took us to through the sound barrier, to space and the moon. Most of our family, neighbors, and friends, don't "get it" that most of us would stand in line for a ride on that same rocket tomorrow. Americans are explorers, our ancestors left everything they had to sail on decrepit ships across the dangerous ocean in search of freedom and opportunity. The Columbia crew and the test pilots that preceded them, are Americans, explorers, in the truest sense of the word. That courage, that gusto, is a commodity in short supply in these times. Many will try to use this terrible event to stop that exploration, to slow the zest for life, the desire to know more, the yearn to go farther and faster. This would be a far greater tragedy than the loss of these lives. God Bless the Crew of Columbia! God Bless America! Doug Rozendaal ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:20 PM PST US From: "Meketa" Subject: Re: RV-List: ENABLE SWITCH --> RV-List message posted by: "Meketa" Sounds like a side-by-side builder to me. Most of these starter button questions are from 8 builders and side-by-siders should take this into account before commenting.. The 8 is very similar but also very different than the 6 and 7's. The 4 is different too, most have been religiously kept light and have simpler systems than the average 8. I saw no way to make my plane user friendly and look good without the switches on the grip. These are not neccessarily big safety items, but are more conveniant and ergonomic. I guess I am "stupid" for doing it this way. PROS: 1. Can start the with a hand on the throttle while holding the stick back with the other hand. I have acquired the bad habit of wanting to always hold the stick full aft when starting. I will have to work on that. 2. The flaps can be controlled on landing, takeoff and in the pattern without moving hands from the stick and throttle. The pilots flap switch can be flipped up and the flaps come up and shut off after landing and when using flaps for takeoff. Could not be easier unless the flaps became automatic. Maybe some voice activated flaps? 3. The auto pilot and altitude hold can be selected and turned off without letting go of the stick. Much safer when a hand can be kept on the stick while selections and disconnects are made. 4. Can have true dual controls in a tandem and still look good at the same time. Many do not care, but I wanted the backseater to have these functions if I want. 5. Fuel pump can be tuned off, flaps can be run up, trim can be reset for takeoff. All at the same time, while rolling out on landing, with hands ready on the stick and throttle. And with just the wiggle of a couple of fingers. CONS: 1. Costs more? So what. Worth every penny. 2. More difficult to use and remember? If you can fly an airplane a well designed system will not be a problem. A couple of flights will make a believer out of you. Well, most of you. Some never seem to see it any way but the same old way. 3. Difficult to install? I can see how it can intimidate some. I have a 24 pin connector coming from the pair of grips. A lot of time was spent thinking about how I wanted it to all work. Do it one system at a time and it is no more difficult than an RV8 canopy skirt. 4. Weighs more? Got me there. Install more horsepower. I will take the Corvette over the MG every time. (I do enjoy the MG's too. Don't tell anyone. I will not admit to it.) Would I do it the same again. YES Be sure and DO NOT ARCHIVE. George Meketa RV-8, N444TX, 244.1 hours > I cannot understand how having any of those things on the stick CAN add > to the safety of the flight IMO it is stupid to have starter buttons, > landing lights etc. on the stick. I do have elevator trim and push to > talk on mine but see no godd reason for the others. But then I guess I > have been flying UN safe for almost 40 years. Remember we are building > and flying recreational vehicles not 747s. > > Just my opinion and worth what you paid for it. $0.00 > > Jerry ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:05 PM PST US From: JDaniel343@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Rudder trim --> RV-List message posted by: JDaniel343@aol.com I am using a 4"x2" piece of .032 aluminum, bent length wise to form a 1 inch tab. I then attached this with double stick carpet tape. It been on for 115 hrs now and doesn't seem to be loose at all. John Danielson RV-6 115 hrs.