Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:30 AM - RV 6A Tip-up gap between C602 (canopy skin) and F671(fwd fuselage skin) (David Roseblade)
2. 03:44 AM - RV4 Help in South Carolina? (Gandjpappy@aol.com)
3. 04:46 AM - RV-8 Adjustable rudder pedal problem (Ken Brooks)
4. 04:50 AM - Re: RV 6A Tip-up gap between C602 (canopy skin) and F671(fwd fuselage skin) (sjhdcl@kingston.net)
5. 06:47 AM - Re: Plenums (Richard Dudley)
6. 07:33 AM - Re: Air Box Advisory (DAVID REEL)
7. 07:33 AM - Air Box Advisory (P M Condon)
8. 08:40 AM - Re: MT Prop governor (Garry LeGare)
9. 09:29 AM - Re: Source for canopy bar grab handles (HCRV6@aol.com)
10. 09:38 AM - Re: Air Box Advisory (Van Artsdalen, Scott)
11. 10:05 AM - Re: RV-8/8A towbars (Greg Zuro)
12. 10:33 AM - Re: Source for canopy bar grab handles (HCRV6@aol.com)
13. 10:45 AM - Re: Air Box Advisory (HCRV6@aol.com)
14. 10:53 AM - Re: RV-8/8A towbars (RV_8 Pilot)
15. 11:34 AM - Re: Air Box Advisory (Wiethe, Philip (P.J.))
16. 12:10 PM - Re: Source for canopy bar grab handles (Jim Norman)
17. 12:39 PM - Re: Re: RV-8/8A towbars (Bill Marvel)
18. 12:41 PM - Re: Re: Air Box Advisory (Van Artsdalen, Scott)
19. 12:42 PM - gear leg wood taken off (WPAerial@aol.com)
20. 01:02 PM - Re: Source for canopy bar grab handles (Dwpetrus@aol.com)
21. 01:34 PM - Re: gear leg wood taken off (Mr Christopher McGough)
22. 01:45 PM - Re: gear leg wood taken off (SportAV8R@aol.com)
23. 02:42 PM - Prop testing data posted (Randy Lervold)
24. 04:35 PM - Re: Plenums (Terry Watson)
25. 05:01 PM - Re: () Prop testing data posted (LeastDrag93066@aol.com)
26. 06:08 PM - Re: Re: Snow in RV induction system, forced landing (Bob)
27. 06:19 PM - Re: wingtip tanks (Don Diehl)
28. 06:26 PM - Re: () Prop testing data posted (Randy Lervold)
29. 06:39 PM - Engine Oil/Fuel Fittings... (KAKlewin@aol.com)
30. 07:12 PM - Re: Prop testing data posted (Jerry Springer)
31. 10:18 PM - Re: Air Box Advisory (Bill Marvel)
Message 1
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| Subject: | RV 6A Tip-up gap between C602 (canopy skin) and F671(fwd fuselage |
skin)
--> RV-List message posted by: David Roseblade <davidagr@emirates.net.ae>
Hi Listers,
Being out in the Persian Gulf, it's a bit difficult to compare what I'm
doing - with what has been done before!! I am having a few problems
getting a tight gap between the two skins and non interference when the
canopy is opened. Please can anybody tell me what gap they have between
the two skins with the canopy closed. Also, are any tricks to use to get
it aligned correctly and opening smoothly.
Many thanks
David Roseblade
RV 6A Finish
UAE
Persian Gulf - getting hotter day by day - could be really hot in a few
weeks - yikes
Message 2
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| Subject: | RV4 Help in South Carolina? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Gandjpappy@aol.com
I have discovered an RV4 for sale in South Carolina that I am interested in
pursuing but unfortunately I am in Michigan. I was hoping to find an RV4
builder/flyer in South Carolina who might be willing to inspect the aircraft
and let me know what kind of condition it is in before I make the long trip.
If I purchase it, I would also be interested in a check out from a qualified
pilot. Please respond to my email direct as I get this list by digest once a
day.
Thanks
Greg
Do not archive.
Message 3
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| Subject: | RV-8 Adjustable rudder pedal problem |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ken Brooks" <kenbrooks@charter.net>
Referring to my earlier post about adjustable rudder/brake pedal angle,
Charlie Kuss asked, "Is there any way those of us who are not yet flying
can determine the correct "angle" of the S-tube on our rudder pedals?"
The answer, in a word, is YES. The pointy ends of the "S" (the tube is
cut on a slant on each end), at both the top and bottom, should not
extend beyond the vertical support bracket to which the "S" is welded
more than about 1/4". The relative angle shown on drawing 34, section
A-A, is pretty accurate for one that is correctly welded. Ours
extended almost 1/2" at both top and bottom, and in effect, made the
equivalent of 1.5" difference in the overall "length" of the cable.
Think of it this way. First draw or visualize the "S" being vertical
with the cable coming out of the top and bottom. As you then cause the
"S" to start leaning (becoming more lazy and italicized), it's easy to
see how it would have the effect of "lengthening" your cable. Leaning
it the OTHER WAY, has the effect of tightening, or shortening the cable.
Having said that, the "proper" pedal ANGLE is purely subjective and
should be whatever feels good, as long as you have brake pedal and fluid
reservoir clearance to the firewall when depressing the brake pedals.
MY problem was that I wanted to be able to use the fore-most pedal
position (long legs) and the resultant pedal angle geometry due to my
"lazy S" weldment wouldn't allow it. Physically reswaging the cable to
make it 1.5" shorter solved the problem because it placed both the brake
pedals and fluid reservoirs more aft, thus giving us more clearance at
the firewall. I took photos that I e-mailed to Ken Krueger during all
of this, so if you contact me off-list, I'll send same to anyone wanting
to compare theirs. Suffice it to say that when you hook up your rudder
cables to the rudder and attach at the firewall and slide the adjustable
pedals all the way forward, it will become immediately obvious if yours
are correct. You'll be able to depress the brakes without hitting the
firewall. If you can't, chances are your S-tubes were incorrectly
welded.
Another builder, Gert, whose kit number was 80721, had the same problem.
Our kit number was 80411, so perhaps Van's got a batch of bad ones right
around those numbers. Anybody else?
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: RV 6A Tip-up gap between C602 (canopy skin) and F671(fwd |
fuselage skin)
--> RV-List message posted by: sjhdcl@kingston.net
The gap can be up to 1/8" to avoid the interference between the canopy frame
skin and the forward top skin. Once the gap is large enough to stop the skins
from binding you can fiberglass a fairing onto the canopy frame skin and have
it overlap the forward skin by 1/4" or so when the canopy is closed. I've heard
others having success by filing each side at different angles but that didn't
work for me.
As far as getting the alignment perfect you may end up bending the frame tube
until the skin sits flush against the fuselage side. Once you do get the fit on
the sides as you wish its time to drill the hinges. I like to absolutely make
sure nothing is going to move before drilling a large hole like this. I use
'sacrifice holes' to keep the canopy in alignment. In addition to the usual
duck tape I drilled 4 holes through the canopy frame skin into the seal support
bracket and clecoed. That way there was no way the canopy frame was going to
move afterwards. The holes are easily filled in later before painting. In fact
they probably end up being fiberglassed over in the area anyway. My canopy
frame turned out perfect along the edges where the skins meat.
Stay safe in UAE. My uncle lives there as well!
Steve
RV7A
Wiring
Quoting David Roseblade <davidagr@emirates.net.ae>:
> --> RV-List message posted by: David Roseblade <davidagr@emirates.net.ae>
>
> Hi Listers,
>
> Being out in the Persian Gulf, it's a bit difficult to compare what I'm
> doing - with what has been done before!! I am having a few problems
> getting a tight gap between the two skins and non interference when the
> canopy is opened. Please can anybody tell me what gap they have between
> the two skins with the canopy closed. Also, are any tricks to use to get
> it aligned correctly and opening smoothly.
>
> Many thanks
>
> David Roseblade
> RV 6A Finish
> UAE
> Persian Gulf - getting hotter day by day - could be really hot in a few
> weeks - yikes
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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--> RV-List message posted by: Richard Dudley <rhdudley@att.net>
Ed,
I would be interested in seeing pictures of your aluminum plenum.
Richard Dudley
-6A FWF
Ed Perry wrote:
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Ed Perry" <eperry@san.rr.com>
>
> I have an -8 with an aluminum plenum. I made the plenum to get the airloads
> off the hinges for the cowling. I am hoping that it will add a few knots. I
> have heard that this is a reasonable hope. Anyway I made mine in about a
> week of straight work. I have a couple of pictures if you are
> interested....
> Ed Perry
> eperry@san.rr.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Phillips" <ripsteel@edge.net>
> To: "RV-List" <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RV-List: Plenums
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: Mark Phillips <ripsteel@edge.net>
> >
> > Howdy list-
> >
> > I am researching plenum design & use and would appreciate any links or
> > suggestions-
> >
> > Also, if anyone knows who owned or owns the yellow plane on the back of
> > Tony Bingelis' On Engines, or anything about it, I would REALLY like to
> > hear about it- talk about a gorgeous piece of work- just wondering how
> > well it DID work...
> >
> > Thanks from the PossumWorks in TN
> > Mark do not archive
> >
> >
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Air Box Advisory |
--> RV-List message posted by: "DAVID REEL" <dreel@cox.net>
Here in Washington DC, we are digging out of a 24" snowfall. So I went outside
with my 2,500 degree blowtorch to melt the ice that was plugging up my downspouts.
It took a LONG time to melt a single ice plug only 2x3 inches. About 10
minutes! So, I'm thinking if ice sneaks up on me, it's a pretty sure thing
I'll be forced down. I have personal experience with the way my IQ nosedives
when I have to react or anticipate things under time pressure. So, my FAB will
have a carb heat airpath that is independent of the air filter. More complicated
but more forgiving at a time when I'll really need it.
In addition, although carbureted O360s are not prone to carburetor ice, I'm using
a Robbins carb heat muff mounted on the left exhaust pipe in the after part
of the engine compartment to maximize heat rise. It won't be anything like 2.500
degrees though so the pilot's operating handbook will still say to engage
heat as a precaution if precipitation or icing conditions are anticipated. The
air aloft is pretty clean & I don't anticipate operating in precipitation with
this day/night VFR airplane.
Dave Reel, RV8A
Message 7
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| Subject: | Air Box Advisory |
--> RV-List message posted by: P M Condon <pcondon@mitre.org>
Caution in the use of the short piece of scat tube for the heated alt.
air source. There have been in service reports (Tigers, modified
Cheetahs and possibly other type of AC) of the breather tube collapsing
under the suction load of the engine running. I believe there are
three(3) types of scat tubing available and cannot recall the type used
in my Tiger.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: MT Prop governor |
--> RV-List message posted by: Garry LeGare <versadek@earthlink.net>
Jeff, this is the same governor that was supplied by Whirlwind with my prop. It
is made in the Czech
Republic. The quality and performance are top notch. Make sure you get the cable
mount bracket for it, as
the McCauley one won't work.
Casper
Jeff Point wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
>
> Does anyone have any knowledge or experience with the MT prop governor
> which Van's recently started selling? It is lighter and $300 cheaper
> according to Van's.
> http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1045682284-436-519&browse=props&product=govnr_1
>
> Jeff Point
> RV-6 finish kit
> Milwaukee WI
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Source for canopy bar grab handles |
--> RV-List message posted by: HCRV6@aol.com
What is a good time to call you Wayne, I don't recognize the area code? I'm
on the West coast.
Harry Crosby
Pleasanton, California
RV-6, starting firewall forward
Message 10
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| Subject: | Air Box Advisory |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Van Artsdalen, Scott" <svanarts@unionsafe.com>
Amen to that Sam! I think it's a testament to the stoutness of these little
machines that pilots are pushing them farther and making IFR platforms out
of them. Not that Bob did this because I don't know if he did or not. But
the fact is that these planes were never designed for what a lot of people
are doing with them. I think Van did a great design job on these planes and
they work wonderfully for the mission profile for which they were created.
Do not archive
--
Scott VanArtsdalen
Network Manager
Union Safe Deposit Bank
209-946-5116
-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Buchanan [mailto:sbuc@hiwaay.net]
Subject: Re: RV-List: Air Box Advisory
--> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
Bill Marvel wrote:
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Bill Marvel <bmarvel@cox.net>
<snip>
> I became aware of a potential problem in the design of the FAB kit that
> is provided for all of our airplanes. I told a few friends about it and
> went so far as to alert Vans about my concerns. It is a great credit
> to Van that his airplanes are so useful that they are being operated
> increasingly as transportation machines, including flights in IMC
> weather. But doing so opens a trap for the unwary regarding the current
> air box design. I doubt that most aircraft builders would have any idea
> whatsoever about the following potential problem inherent in air box kit
> as it now exists.
<snip>
The design/flaws of the Vans airbox as stated in the above post has been
obvious to many builders. While I never intend to fly my RV-6 in
conditions that remotely resemble icing conditions, or even snow for
that matter, since the day I first saw the airbox I have been concerned
about the ramifications of snarfing a bird into the air intake.
I am interested in seeing how Vans addresses this issue. I must admit
however, that in my opinion, flying any RV into icing conditions is far,
far beyond the design intentions of this series of aircraft. When Van
designed his marvelous little aircraft, he intended for them to be
light, efficient sport vehicles to be enjoyed by pilots in VMC.
I'm trying hard not to sound preachy, but while I still have an interest
in using my RV-6 in IMC, I must realize that to do so is to take the
aircraft into a flight regime for which it was not intended by the
designer, and I must be cognizant of the associated risks.
Sam Buchanan
Message 11
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| Subject: | RE: RV-8/8A towbars |
--> RV-List message posted by: Greg Zuro <gzuro@yahoo.com>
I purchased one of these from Mr. Beringer a few weeks ago. I must say
that I was disappointed with the product, especially given the price. The
most favorable aspect of the product is that it does fit into the front
baggage area quite well. The sockets on the tow bar did not fit my
nosewheel at all. The bar is basically two pieces of bent Al attached
scissors-style. The hinge seemed quite flimsy.
I ended up getting a tow bar from Bogert Aviation and am quite happy with
it. It cost less and it is much more professionally constructed. It does
not fit in the baggage area quite as well, however.
greg
--> RV-List message posted by: Bill Marvel <bmarvel@cox.net>
I mentioned months ago that you can get a custom made RV-8/8A towbar
from a metal shop out here in the L.A. area for (now price) $80. It is
made of TIG welded aluminum rod and is designed to fit in the forward
baggage compartment flush against the firewall. It is as large as it
can be and still allow for the door to close. I have used mine for
almost a year now and it works great. It us also very light.
The shop owner is Glen Berringer and his number is 310 322 1627. I know
him but am not in any way financially involved with this venture. He
made the prototype up to my dimensions and the product works well.
Bill Marvel
http://taxes.yahoo.com/
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Source for canopy bar grab handles |
--> RV-List message posted by: HCRV6@aol.com
Jim: From your post it sounds like your handles hang down from the bar as
opposed to being oriented more aft and horizontal as is the case with most of
the welded-on handles I have seen. Any concern about their being in the way
of your noggin in the event of a sudden stop? Is there a picture of your
installation you could post? Thanks.
Harry Crosby
Pleasanton, California
RV-6, firewall forward
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Air Box Advisory |
--> RV-List message posted by: HCRV6@aol.com
Am I wrong in assuming that immediate application of full carb heat with
Van's basic air box design when first encountering visible moisture in
anywhere near freezing temperatures would prevent blockage of the filter?
Harry Crosby
Pleasanton, California
RV-6, firewall forward
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: RV-8/8A towbars |
--> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" <rv_8pilot@hotmail.com>
My RV-8 towbar is an 8' piece of ~5/8" poly rope. Loop around tailwheel
spring and pull as desired. ;)
Bryan Jones -8
Pearland, Texas
do not archive
>I ended up getting a tow bar from Bogert Aviation and am quite happy with
>it. It cost less and it is much more professionally constructed. It does
>not fit in the baggage area quite as well, however.
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Air Box Advisory |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Wiethe, Philip (P.J.)" <pwiethe@FORD.COM>
Just a note - here in Michigan, you can on occasion be flying in VFR conditions
and be in snow showers. So snow ingestion is not always an IMC only event.
I'm still a ways off from working on this, but I plan to run fuel injection, with
an air-filter bypass.
Phil
8A wings.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Source for canopy bar grab handles |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Norman" <jgnorman@tampabay.rr.com>
You are correct. They are oriented straight down... however, there are two
types, one that it straight and one that is slighly curved... I put in the
curved ones. There is NO chance of hitting these things with your noggin,
and they only come down about 1.5 inches. If you look at some of the
pictures of my plane (look at the old panel photos) you can see what I'm
talking about.
http://www.steinair.com/jn
jim
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of HCRV6@aol.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: Source for canopy bar grab handles
--> RV-List message posted by: HCRV6@aol.com
Jim: From your post it sounds like your handles hang down from the bar as
opposed to being oriented more aft and horizontal as is the case with most
of
the welded-on handles I have seen. Any concern about their being in the way
of your noggin in the event of a sudden stop? Is there a picture of your
installation you could post? Thanks.
Harry Crosby
Pleasanton, California
RV-6, firewall forward
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: RE: RV-8/8A towbars |
--> RV-List message posted by: Bill Marvel <bmarvel@cox.net>
Greg:
One other person contacted me off list about this and I am wondering if there
is more than one -8A nose fairing that is being used. I bought my kit in Nov
2000 and it came with the fairings at that time. The nose fairing is
noticeably smaller than the main fairings. The two bar was made to fit my
airplane and does so perfectly. If it does not work in your application, I'd
send it back and get a refund. It would be helpful, however, to know why it
doesn't work -- are there two or more nose fairings that have been used?
Bill Marvel
Greg Zuro wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Greg Zuro <gzuro@yahoo.com>
>
> I purchased one of these from Mr. Beringer a few weeks ago. I must say
> that I was disappointed with the product, especially given the price. The
> most favorable aspect of the product is that it does fit into the front
> baggage area quite well. The sockets on the tow bar did not fit my
> nosewheel at all. The bar is basically two pieces of bent Al attached
> scissors-style. The hinge seemed quite flimsy.
>
> I ended up getting a tow bar from Bogert Aviation and am quite happy with
> it. It cost less and it is much more professionally constructed. It does
> not fit in the baggage area quite as well, however.
>
> greg
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Bill Marvel <bmarvel@cox.net>
>
> I mentioned months ago that you can get a custom made RV-8/8A towbar
> from a metal shop out here in the L.A. area for (now price) $80. It is
> made of TIG welded aluminum rod and is designed to fit in the forward
> baggage compartment flush against the firewall. It is as large as it
> can be and still allow for the door to close. I have used mine for
> almost a year now and it works great. It us also very light.
>
> The shop owner is Glen Berringer and his number is 310 322 1627. I know
> him but am not in any way financially involved with this venture. He
> made the prototype up to my dimensions and the product works well.
>
> Bill Marvel
>
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/
>
--
Bill Marvel Home/office 310 832 7617
P.O. Box 784 Cell 310 293 2013
San Pedro, CA 90733 Fax 310 832 5334
One good deed beats 100 good intentions...
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Air Box Advisory |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Van Artsdalen, Scott" <svanarts@unionsafe.com>
What is snow anyway?
Oh! It's that white stuff we slide down in the mountains!
(From one of those California people)
Do not archive
--
Scott VanArtsdalen
Network Manager
Union Safe Deposit Bank
209-946-5116
-----Original Message-----
From: Wiethe, Philip (P.J.) [mailto:pwiethe@FORD.COM]
Subject: RV-List: Re: Air Box Advisory
--> RV-List message posted by: "Wiethe, Philip (P.J.)" <pwiethe@FORD.COM>
Just a note - here in Michigan, you can on occasion be flying in VFR
conditions and be in snow showers. So snow ingestion is not always an IMC
only event. I'm still a ways off from working on this, but I plan to run
fuel injection, with an air-filter bypass.
Phil
8A wings.
Message 19
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| Subject: | gear leg wood taken off |
--> RV-List message posted by: WPAerial@aol.com
I took the wood off my gear legs yesterday. There seems to be no difference
in landing. I did this to get a better fit for leg fairing. I've been having
a loud squeal of the right brake, that now seems to be gone?:-)
Jerry Wilken
RV6A
37 hours
Albany Oregon
going to sun and fun can't wait
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Source for canopy bar grab handles |
--> RV-List message posted by: Dwpetrus@aol.com
CST. West Monroe, LA
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: gear leg wood taken off |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Mr Christopher McGough" <vhmum@bigpond.com>
I was advised not to put them on in the first placed. See if there is any
shimmy . If not leave it . There wasn't so we have saved some weight.
Chris and Susie
VH-MUM RV6 120hours
----- Original Message -----
From: <WPAerial@aol.com>
Subject: RV-List: gear leg wood taken off
> --> RV-List message posted by: WPAerial@aol.com
>
> I took the wood off my gear legs yesterday. There seems to be no
difference
> in landing. I did this to get a better fit for leg fairing. I've been
having
> a loud squeal of the right brake, that now seems to be gone?:-)
>
> Jerry Wilken
> RV6A
> 37 hours
>
> Albany Oregon
> going to sun and fun can't wait
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: gear leg wood taken off |
--> RV-List message posted by: SportAV8R@aol.com
In a message dated 02/20/2003 4:35:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,
vhmum@bigpond.com writes:
> I was advised not to put them on in the first placed. See if there is any
> shimmy . If not leave it . There wasn't so we have saved some weight.
>
>
You've also saved yourself a chance to develop the pitting corrosion I found
on my gear legs when , after 4 years, I took my wood "shimmy dampenes" off.
Never missed them since.
-Bill B
Message 23
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<rv-list@matronics.com>
| Subject: | Prop testing data posted |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Lervold" <randy@rv-8.com>
Many of you are aware that I have been in search of a prop upgrade for my
RV-8. I have now completed testing on the Whirl Wind 150 and have data
compiled as to how it compares with the Hartzell HC-C2YK-1BF. The updated
info on this process can be found at...
www.rv-8.com/Prop.htm
This is only the first half of the process, as you will read on the above
page I will be testing a 2-blade prop from Whirl Wind whithin a couple of
weeks.
Hope you find it informative and/or useful.
Randy Lervold
RV-8, 295 hrs
EAA Technical Counselor
Home Wing VAF
www.rv-8.com
Message 24
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" <terry@tcwatson.com>
Here's a link to Jim Andrew's aluminum plenum in his 8A:
http://rv8a.tripod.com/plenum.html
Terry
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: (RV-List:) Prop testing data posted |
--> RV-List message posted by: LeastDrag93066@aol.com
In a message dated 02/20/2003 2:44:42 PM Pacific Standard Time,
randy@rv-8.com writes:
> This is only the first half of the process, as you will read on the above
> page I will be testing a 2-blade prop from Whirl Wind whithin a couple of
> weeks.
>
> Hope you find it informative and/or useful.
>
> Randy Lervold
> RV-8, 295 hrs
> EAA Technical Counselor
> Home Wing VAF
> www.rv-8.com
>
Have you considered trying the MT propeller that Van recommends for your
engine? (Just another composite CS prop.)
Jim Ayers
RV-3 N47RV sn 50 LOM M332A engine MT electric CS Propeller
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Snow in RV induction system, forced landing |
--> RV-List message posted by: Bob <bob_rv@earthlink.net>
Rob,
I think that's a good idea.
I'd originally considered the "drill a bunch of holes" approach to a filter, but
rejected the idea because I was afraid I'd restrict the air flow too much.
After a lot of testing, I'm now convinced that the engine will run fine with the
amount of air that goes through a 2" by 1/4" opening, and probably even less.
Thus one could probably drill a whole bunch of holes (1/8"?) right into the
FAB/Carb plate (rather than cutting a hole there as I did) and have a good FOD
prevention system, while still keeping the "tent" concept.
I may do that, at some point. For now, I'm relying on a good stop nut on the Bnut,
with a steel attachment riveted on the "tent" door.
-------Original Message-------
From: Rob A <racker@rmci.net>
Subject: RE: RV-List: Snow in RV induction system, forced landing
>
> VERY scary/enlightening post !!! Glad everyone was okay.
I've only scanned the text and pics so may have missed something...but
what
if the bugnut on the tent falls off (possibly getting sucked into the
engine)?
If this is possible (again, I have not studied the text/pics extensively),
how about adding a screen between the tent and original FAB toplate? A
piece of aluminum with a bunch of holes, undersized in comparison to
anything that could fall through, comes to mind.
Rob Acker (RV-6, 2.5 hours).
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bob
Subject: RV-List: Snow in RV induction system, forced landing
--> RV-List message posted by: Bob <bob_rv@earthlink.net>
Listers,
I want to share with you some information about the RV Filtered Air Box,
learned from a most attention getting flight.
Narrative: En route in level flight during snow it was observed that fuel
flow had increased from about 9 gph to 11 gph. The engine was leaned,
which
returned the fuel flow to 9 gph or so, but the flow immediately started
increasing to 10 gph. The engine was leaned again, the flow begin to
increase again. It was observed that the manifold pressure had decreased
from a nominal 23 inches to around 21 inches. Carb heat was applied, no
significant effect was noted. Opening the throttle all the way increased
the manifold pressure, but not to the value it had been when the flight
first reached cruise altitude. The manifold pressure dropped another
inch.
At this point it was clear that something was amiss, and the flight was
diverted to a nearby airport. Manifold pressure continued to drop.
Switching tanks, operating with boost pump, and changing mixture settings
caused no improvement. By the time the aircraft landed the engine was
delivering almost no thrust, even though !
the throttle was wide open. When the throttle was pulled to idle in the
flare, there was very little decrease in power (because very little power
was being produced).
The situation was discussed with two A&P/IAs, both of whom concluded that
the problem was snow blocking the air intake filter. One of them, RV-8A
builder Bill Marvel, will send a separate post to the list discussing my
incident as well as another related to it.
Verification: With all contamination removed from the FAB the engine ran
normally. With some snow placed into the FAB, the engine ran very rough,
producing lots of pop/bang noises, and not generating anything like full
power. Examination revealed the snow had been drawn into the pleats of
the
air filter all around the perimeter of the air filter, effectively
blocking
air flow. It appears that the snow-blocked air filter starved the
induction
system of air and caused a super rich mixture. It appears the pop/bang
sounds came from the unburned gas igniting in the exhaust system.
Analysis: It appears that during the incident flight, snow was
accumulating in the aircrafts Filtered Air Box (FAB), part of the RVs
engine induction system. When the pilot selects carburetor (carb) heat in
most general aviation aircraft the heated air flows into the induction
system AFTER the air filter, so if the air filter is clogged the carb heat
air will still reach the engine, allowing the engine to operate more or
less
normally. The RV FAB employs a non-standard induction system design. In
the
RV, carb heat air, when turned on, flows into the induction system IN
FRONT
OF the air filter. This means that a clogged air filter prevents carb
heat
air from flowing in to the engine, and the engine is starved of air. This
appears to be a significant design problem.
Detailed explanation of engine failure as experienced in flight: The
blocked air filter impeded air flow into the carburetor, effectively
applying a vacuum to the induction system. The lowered pressure in the
induction system pulled excessive fuel from the carburetor venturi,
causing
the increase in fuel flow that was observed. In addition, the restricted
airflow began to lower manifold pressure as the engine was deprived of
sufficient air. When the engine was leaned the fuel flow temporarily
returned to normal levels, but the increasing blockage of the air filter
applied additional vacuum to the induction system, drawing more fuel
through
the carburetor, and increasing fuel flow again. When carb heat was applied
the available warm air was insufficient to clear the accumulated snow in
the
air filter, and may have made the situation worse by melting snow crystals
into ice/slush. Because of the design of the RV induction system, there
was
no way to bypass the clogged air !
filter and provide air to the engine. This resulted in a forced landing.
A modified induction system, which will continue to provide air to the
engine even after filter blockage, is shown at
http://home.earthlink.net/~bob_rv. It has been flight tested, and appears
to work well.
Also see the new link about this problem on Vans web page,
http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/airbox.pdf
Bob
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: wingtip tanks |
--> RV-List message posted by: Don Diehl <diehldon@attbi.com>
My RV-4 is just a bit short on range so I've been considering Jon's tanks
installed and plumbed as follows and would appreciate your
comments/criticisms on my ideas.
Attach in place of the stock wing tips with #6 nutplates and machine
screws. This to allow access to strobe power supplies and landing lights.
Braided SS flex line from the tank outlet to a bulkhead fitting on the
first rib inboard of the tip, not the tip rib. This to provide a service
loop so that I could remove the screws and move the tank an inch or so out
to disconnect the flex line from the tank fitting. No additional inspection
ports required.
Hard line forward (aft perhaps) of the spar to the gap between the
inboard rib and fuselage where I would put the check valve.
SS flex line from the check valve to a tee into the third, BOTH ON, port
of the fuel selector valve. This avoids the plumbing into the mains and
weeping gas caps.
My plan is to fly with the valve on "BOTH" until the tips run dry then
switch to a main tank.
BTW I would like to run my ideas by Jon. Does anyone know how to contact
him?
Don Diehl
Bremerton WA
RV-4 N28EW
C-170 N3856V
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: (RV-List:) Prop testing data posted |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Lervold" <randy@rv-8.com>
> Have you considered trying the MT propeller that Van recommends for your
> engine? (Just another composite CS prop.)
>
> Jim Ayers
> RV-3 N47RV sn 50 LOM M332A engine MT electric CS Propeller
Sure, I'd love to test the MTV-12-B/183-59, but with any of these props you
need to BUY one before you can test it. Before deciding to go the Whirl Wind
route I spoke with an engineer at MT who was very informative. I have
nothing but respect for both the company and the products, but unfortunately
you can't just pick up a loaner for trial.
Randy Lervold
Message 29
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| Subject: | Engine Oil/Fuel Fittings... |
--> RV-List message posted by: KAKlewin@aol.com
The time has come again to poll the wisdom of the masses to reduce my level
of confusion....my engine is coming in a week or so and I wanted to get all
the fittings ready that I will need (and install a few before hanging).....I
have read Tony B's book, reviewed George's Video, consulted vans instructions
(specifically figure 11-10 on fuel/oil fittings), searched the archives, and
have read the guide to hanging an engine on Doug Reeve's website....my
questions are as follows:
1. Fuel Fittings: I have the KB-090-T and KB-090 from vans for the fuel
pump fittings with the restrictors....I think I am good here.....the fitting
for the carb (Aerosport O-360) is shown in vans plans to be a AN822-6D. No
problem...but shouldn't I use steel fittings on the engine side of things...a
"D"type fitting...at least in the wicks book is an alum fitting?
2. Oil Cooler Fittings: Vans shows AN816-8D and AN823-8D (one straight and
one with a 45 deg bend)...again alum fittings...is that ok? I already have
alum fittings on the oil cooler inlet and outlet.
3. Oil Pressure Fittings: Vans plans shows AN816-4....other publications
mention one with a 45 deg angle....I want a flow restrictor here...but vans
catalog or wicks doesn't seem to have one with a flow restrictor....I assume
there is one out there??
4. MP Pressure Fitting: Im running an RMI monitor.....any ideas as to the
fitting to put on the #3 cyl to adapt to the MP sensor included in the kit...
5. Primer port fittings...I have 1/8 in primer line from my primer sol. and
plan to run to the #1,2,4 cyls....I have all the fittings for this and Vans
agains recommends the AN-816-2D...again an alum fitting...is steel better??
Sorry for all the questions.....thanks ahead of time for your help...
Kurt in OKC....dreaming of fittings and hoses...ugggg.....
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Prop testing data posted |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
Sorry Randy I can't agree with your first paragraph on your web site
that we with fixed pitch props are operating under SERIOUS compromise.
the only gain you get with a constant speed prop is better initial climb
and somewhat more efficient at higher altitudes. Comparable airframes
and engines, one constant and one fixed, well perform about the same at
lower altitudes where most of us are flying in RVs. In fact I know one
constant speed prop RV-6 had to run higher power setting at say 3-4000ft
to stay with me with a fixed pitch. If you want to say that a constant
speed well give you a better initial climb, better fuel economy at a
high altitude and some braking effect while slowing down, fine I well
agree with that. But comparing that to cost of a constant speed prop
I don't find that a SERIOUS compromise.
As always JMO
Jerry
do not archive
Randy Lervold wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Lervold" <randy@rv-8.com>
>
> Many of you are aware that I have been in search of a prop upgrade for my
> RV-8. I have now completed testing on the Whirl Wind 150 and have data
> compiled as to how it compares with the Hartzell HC-C2YK-1BF. The updated
> info on this process can be found at...
> www.rv-8.com/Prop.htm
>
> This is only the first half of the process, as you will read on the above
> page I will be testing a 2-blade prop from Whirl Wind whithin a couple of
> weeks.
>
> Hope you find it informative and/or useful.
>
> Randy Lervold
> RV-8, 295 hrs
> EAA Technical Counselor
> Home Wing VAF
> www.rv-8.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Air Box Advisory |
--> RV-List message posted by: Bill Marvel <bmarvel@cox.net>
Harry:
Jerry Springer indirectly asked the same question in a recent post. This
question if far more significant than either of you may have realized, and is
the reason why Van did not merely suggest this as a solution to the air box
design problem. In fact, doing what you and Jerry suggest may actually CAUSE
carb ice to form. Let me explain.
The standard for certified aircraft is that carb heat must increase the air
temperature at least 90 degrees F. The reason for this is that FAA worst
case testing shows that this amount of temperature rise is necessary in order
to be assured that the carburetor air inlet temperature is above that needed
to induce icing problems after inlet air cools crossing the venturi. As you
may be aware, airframe icing is not possible either above or below a certain
temperature range. The same is true with carburetor icing. If you can keep
inlet air into the carb either too cold or too warm for ice formation, you
will have prevented the problem. This is the reason why most POH's advise to
use full carb heat when necessary and to avoid the use of partial carb heat.
Let's analyze this for a moment. Assume that a carb heat system does not
meet this standard and can only raise the temperature by 50 degrees. This
means that for some outside air temperatures, adding full carb heat would
raise the inlet air temperature to a level where passing over the venturi
drops it into the icing range. In such a case, adding carb heat will
actually cause carb ice. Once formed, nothing can be done to eliminate it
since carb heat is already full on. Those of us (that includes me) who have
picked up airframe ice climbing to on top conditions know that it takes a
long time for ice to dissipate into the atmosphere through a process
technically known as sublimation. When it is your engine that has quit due
to ice, you don't have the liberty of "a long time" to get rid of it.
Taking this point further, the RV carb heat system has never been tested for
(nor is it required to meet) this 90 degree standard. The amount of
temperature rise is dependent upon two factors in any aircraft -- the
efficiency of the heat muff and the heat loss sustained between the muff and
the carburetor. In the RV air box current design, given the intervention of
the air filter in this path, as well as the use of several types of heat
muffs, there is no way to know for certain that the system meets the 90
degree standard.
And it gets worse. Assume you're flying in some type of moisture and that
you activate full carb heat as a preventative measure. This sounds good in
principle, but is problematic in practice. Unless your system can for
certain raise the temperature of the inlet air by 90 degrees, you may very
well be raising it only enough to fall into the icing range. But in this
situation, you have not only raised the temperature into the icing range, but
also have added moisture to it -- the perfect setup for carb ice. You could
literally be melting snow that would otherwise clog your air filter, only to
have it become the moisture that causes ice in your carburetor. More than a
few airplanes have been lost due to this very scenario over the years.
In summary, there is no panacea associated with the application of full carb
heat unless that action has the known result of increasing the carb inlet air
temperature by at least 90 degrees F. If it does not do this, it may very
well cause the exact problem it was intended to prevent.
The post on Van's web site and the forthcoming modification drawings to the
air box are not merely recommendations made to sound good to readers. They
exist to address a problem that has been indentified and will again occur
unless steps are taken to prevent it.
Bill Marvel
HCRV6@aol.com wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: HCRV6@aol.com
>
> Am I wrong in assuming that immediate application of full carb heat with
> Van's basic air box design when first encountering visible moisture in
> anywhere near freezing temperatures would prevent blockage of the filter?
>
> Harry Crosby
> Pleasanton, California
> RV-6, firewall forward
>
--
Bill Marvel Home/office 310 832 7617
P.O. Box 784 Cell 310 293 2013
San Pedro, CA 90733 Fax 310 832 5334
One good deed beats 100 good intentions...
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