---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 02/21/03: 30 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:28 AM - Re: Air Box Advisory (Jerry Springer) 2. 07:17 AM - Homebuiltairplanes.com (Rob Miller) 3. 07:42 AM - Re: Air Box Advisory (Bill Marvel) 4. 09:14 AM - Serious Oil dump on the bottom of plane (mstewart@qa.butler.com) 5. 09:20 AM - Re: Air Box Advisory (WALTER KERR) 6. 09:24 AM - Grand Rapids EIS Tach connection (Andy Karmy) 7. 09:41 AM - Grove Gear Installation Report (Rob Miller) 8. 09:44 AM - Re: Air Box Advisory (kempthornes) 9. 09:45 AM - Re: Air Box Advisory (Bill Marvel) 10. 09:53 AM - Re: Air Box Advisory (kempthornes) 11. 11:01 AM - Re: Air Box Advisory (Chris Good) 12. 11:17 AM - Re: Air Box Advisory (HCRV6@aol.com) 13. 11:19 AM - Re: Air Box Advisory (SportAV8R@aol.com) 14. 12:00 PM - Re: Air Box Advisory (Jerry Springer) 15. 12:13 PM - Re: Grove Gear Installation Report (Tracy Crook) 16. 12:34 PM - Re: Air Box Advisory (Jerry Springer) 17. 12:36 PM - Re: Grove Gear Installation Report (Rob Miller) 18. 01:26 PM - large OD, thin wall tubing? (Chris) 19. 01:51 PM - Re: Air Box Advisory (kempthornes) 20. 02:29 PM - Re: large OD, thin wall tubing? (Dan Checkoway) 21. 02:47 PM - Aluminum source (was: large OD, thin wall tubing?) (Bill Dube) 22. 02:54 PM - Re: large OD, thin wall tubing? (Bill Dube) 23. 03:15 PM - Re: large OD, thin wall tubing? (Charlie & Tupper England) 24. 03:59 PM - Oil on Belly (Lenleg@aol.com) 25. 04:31 PM - UV Smooth Prime - What is "crosslink"? (Jordan Grant) 26. 04:52 PM - Re: Air Box Advisory (Shelley Holloway) 27. 04:54 PM - Re: Air Box Advisory (Philip Wiethe) 28. 06:50 PM - Re: Source for canopy bar grab handles (Bobby Hester) 29. 09:20 PM - New EFIS option (Chris Good) 30. 10:03 PM - Re: Oil on Belly (Kyle Boatright) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:28:00 AM PST US From: Jerry Springer Subject: Re: RV-List: Air Box Advisory --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer Bill Marvel wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: Bill Marvel > > Harry: > > Jerry Springer indirectly asked the same question in a recent post. This > question if far more significant than either of you may have realized, and is > the reason why Van did not merely suggest this as a solution to the air box > design problem. In fact, doing what you and Jerry suggest may actually CAUSE > carb ice to form. Let me explain. > What it boils down to was poor carb heat use technique. What you are talking about here Bill is venturi carb ice which is totally different than clogging up your intake by flying in a snow storm. > > And it gets worse. Assume you're flying in some type of moisture and that > you activate full carb heat as a preventative measure. Once again poor use of carb heat, you don't just summarily turn it on as a preventative measure. Use as needed unless you are flying in snow, which most anyone would know that it well clog the intake without some corrective action. > This sounds good in > principle, but is problematic in practice. Unless your system can for > certain raise the temperature of the inlet air by 90 degrees, you may very > well be raising it only enough to fall into the icing range. But in this > situation, you have not only raised the temperature into the icing range, but > also have added moisture to it -- the perfect setup for carb ice. You could > literally be melting snow that would otherwise clog your air filter, only to > have it become the moisture that causes ice in your carburetor. More than a > few airplanes have been lost due to this very scenario over the years. > > In summary, there is no panacea associated with the application of full carb > heat unless that action has the known result of increasing the carb inlet air > temperature by at least 90 degrees F. Yes there is it keeps the snow out of your intake. To me it would be obvious not to go fly in the snow with this setup in the first place. Legally you are not to fly into known icing conditions. More pilots should be worried about flying into weather conditions that they are not qualified to do such as the RV-4 pilot in Homer, LA that took off with 200 ft ceiling and killed himself and a passenger. Just dose not make sense. Or the case recently of Lonnie Johnson RV-6A that noticed reduced rpm so applied more power, the reduced RPM should have been the first clue to apply carb heat. It is not like there had been no warning about this system in snow, Tim Lewis had a power loss supposedly because of snow in Dec. It just irritates the hell out of me when I hear people say well I might be in a situation where I can't help flying into some kind of adverse weather, that is total BS, anyone with their eyeballs open can see what kind of weather they are flying in and take preventative action. Anyone that flies into know weather conditions beyond their experience or the ability of their aircraft should maybe take up basket weaving. Obviously people are trying to put enough buttons and whistles on these home built, sport aircraft to make up for their lack of abilities. I guess with this one I better get out the old flame suit. DO NOT ARCHIVE --------------------------- > If it does not do this, it may very > well cause the exact problem it was intended to prevent. > > The post on Van's web site and the forthcoming modification drawings to the > air box are not merely recommendations made to sound good to readers. They > exist to address a problem that has been indentified and will again occur > unless steps are taken to prevent it. > > Bill Marvel > > HCRV6@aol.com wrote: > >>--> RV-List message posted by: HCRV6@aol.com >> >>Am I wrong in assuming that immediate application of full carb heat with >>Van's basic air box design when first encountering visible moisture in >>anywhere near freezing temperatures would prevent blockage of the filter? >> >>Harry Crosby >>Pleasanton, California >>RV-6, firewall forward >> > > > > -- > Bill Marvel Home/office 310 832 7617 > P.O. Box 784 Cell 310 293 2013 > San Pedro, CA 90733 Fax 310 832 5334 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:17:33 AM PST US From: Rob Miller Subject: RV-List: Homebuiltairplanes.com --> RV-List message posted by: Rob Miller Here's a new site that's great for posting photos of your project without having to maintain a website. The site operator is very responsive and gives a warm welcome to new members. The site is free of charge. Rob Miller -8 N262RM "Bad Cat" 47 hours http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:42:50 AM PST US From: Bill Marvel Subject: Re: RV-List: Air Box Advisory --> RV-List message posted by: Bill Marvel Hi Jerry: My only purpose was to explain a subtlety of carb heat that I don't believe is widely recognized. That is, of course, that unless the system is known to produce an adequate rise in inlet air temperature to prevent ice, it might just raise it enough to cause ice. This was intended to address a question as to whether or not the use of full carb heat in an RV might preclude the need for Van's to alter the FAB design. That answer is no. A snow clogged air filter and venturi ice are indeed different things. I wanted to show that with the existing design, attempting to preclude the former is potentially a way of causing the latter. > Once again poor use of carb heat, you don't just summarily turn it > on as a preventative measure. Use as needed unless you are flying in > snow, which most anyone would know that it well clog the intake without > some corrective action. This is one of the valuable outcomes of forums such as this on the internet. What someone knows or does not know covers a wide range. While this may have been obvious to you, rest assured that it was not to Bob and others who have had this problem and did not understand why. And it is of sufficient concern that when brought to their attention, Van's Aircraft decided to act on it. > Anyone that flies into know weather conditions beyond their experience > or the ability of their aircraft should maybe take up basket weaving. > Obviously people are trying to put enough buttons and whistles on these > home built, sport aircraft to make up for their lack of abilities. My interest in these discussions is education and knowledge -- a two way street. I accept the fact that I cannot alter the judgement used by others in choosing when to fly, nor can they alter it in me. I am well aware of the high number of accidents that cause others to say, "... why on earth did he do that?" I also accept the fact that more of these airplanes are being equipped to fly in IMC with all of its challenges. And I know that owner/builders range from airline pilots to folks who are very new to aviation. That covers a lot of territory and range of knowledge and experience. This one area, the FAB design and its shortcomings, seemed to me to be a preventable risk. My intent was merely to explain the cause and effect relationships involved to those who were interested. Bill Marvel ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:14:53 AM PST US From: mstewart@qa.butler.com Subject: RV-List: Serious Oil dump on the bottom of plane --> RV-List message posted by: mstewart@qa.butler.com I posted this message below to theYahoo Lycoming list this morning and got an answer to the problem. It was a serious enough problem, and particular enough to the rv's that I felt it a good post and solution to the list. Thanks Kyle for the solution below. Problem RV-6A, O-360A1A, Airflow, C/S, Elec. Ign, 730 since new 14 months ago. Yesterday, I took a 2 1/2 hour trip Atl to DC. Absolutely nothing during the trip indicated any problem. All engine info as steady as normal. Ture airspeed was exactly as normal for power setting and so forth. No acro involved. I watch very closely, particularly while IMC as I was for some of the trip. When I arrived I had an oil soaked bottom of plane and was down 1 qt. I mean soaked. Dripping from front to back. I just new when i pulled the cowl I was going to find some fitting loose or gone. Instead I found a completely clean engine, cowl, and firewall. Only thing I found was my breather dump, which comes out near exhausts stacks exit, had a few drops coming out. 1 hour later, a small puddle from the breather. I normally run 5-6 qts. Never more. I was down to 4 1/2 so I put 3 in a ran it,. Could not see anything unusual. So I cleaned it up and ran home, making several stops. And I did not loose any oil on the trip home. So. What the deal? A buddy mentioned possible blow by pressurizing the crank. Is this something that would come and go? And if it is gone for now, should I worry about some catostrophic failure in the furture.? I have not a clue was happened. Any ideas guys? I plan on doing a leakdown check tomorrow. Im betting I find nothing there. I can't let this go unanswered.: I spoke to Lycoming this morning. They said the following: 1. Since the problem came and went, it is something external to the engine itself. (I take this is a standard lycoming answer to sluff the problem off their engine. cause I dont buy that logic.) 2. The breather exit must be in a neutral pressure area. (Well i dont know if it is or isnt. But it has been there for 700 hours and I have never had this happen) 3. Obviously something on that flight was diffrent to cause either a vacuum on the breather or a pressurized case. He did not know which. (Perhaps, but nothing in the flight was different other than I was much more docile with the plane than normal cause i was wearing a suit for a meeting and had a co-worker in the right seat with a weak stomach.) 4. Asked me if i had a whistle slot in my tube. (Answer no. But I could put one in. My understanding of the whistle slot function, and my aeronca has one, is that in the event of an end clogged breather, the case gets another chance to breath. Now assuming I had a clogged breather, wouldn't that cause the oil to pop out someplace OTHER than the breather tube?) 5. The tube could have frozen up based on the particular conditions of that flight. (Perhaps, but, the OAT never got below 42F, although Ture air temperature was in the 32 range. I regulary check the TAT just for grins. But I still do not understand the physics of why an airborne air temperature sensor, located in my wing root, has to be corrected for airspeed. But thats another topic) Solution: http://www.metronet.com/~dreeves/articles/oilloss.htm My Dipstick WAS loose, although not falling out loose like Kyles in this article above. I did not think anything about it at the time cause I looked at the dipstick tube and did not see anything pouring down it. But it illustrates what a loose dipstick can do. It also tells me my breather is in a low pressure area and needs to be moved. To where I dunno. But Ill look at it. Mike Stewart 730hrs. 14 months RV-6A I posted this message below to theYahoo Lycoming list this morning and got an answer to the problem. It was a serious enough problem, and particular enough to the rv's that I felt it a good post and solution to the list. Thanks Kyle for the solution below. Problem RV-6A, O-360A1A, Airflow, C/S, Elec. Ign, 730 since new 14 months ago. Yesterday, I took a 2 1/2 hour trip Atl to DC. Absolutely nothing during the trip indicated any problem. All engine info as steady as normal. Ture airspeed was exactly as normal for power setting and so forth. No acro involved. I watch very closely, particularly while IMC as I was for some of the trip. When I arrived I had an oil soaked bottom of plane and was down 1 qt. I mean soaked. Dripping from front to back. I just new when i pulled the cowl I was going to find some fitting loose or gone. Instead I found a completely clean engine, cowl, and firewall. Only thing I found was my breather dump, which comes out near exhausts stacks exit, had a few drops coming out. 1 hour later, a small puddle from the breather. I normally run 5-6 qts. Never more. I was down to 4 1/2 so I put 3 in a ran it,. Could not see anything unusual. So I cleaned it up and ran home, making several stops. And I did not loose any oil on the trip home. So. What the deal? A buddy mentioned possible blow by pressurizing the crank. Is this something that would come and go? And if it is gone for now, should I worry about some catostrophic failure in the furture.? I have not a clue was happened. Any ideas guys? I plan on doing a leakdown check tomorrow. Im betting I find nothing there. I can't let this go unanswered.: I spoke to Lycoming this morning. They said the following: 1. Since the problem came and went, it is something external to the engine itself. (I take this is a standard lycoming answer to sluff the problem off their engine. cause I dont buy that logic.) 2. The breather exit must be in a neutral pressure area. (Well i dont know if it is or isnt. But it has been there for 700 hours and I have never had this happen) 3. Obviously something on that flight was diffrent to cause either a vacuum on the breather or a pressurized case. He did not know which. (Perhaps, but nothing in the flight was different other than I was much more docile with the plane than normal cause i was wearing a suit for a meeting and had a co-worker in the right seat with a weak stomach.) 4. Asked me if i had a whistle slot in my tube. (Answer no. But I could put one in. My understanding of the whistle slot function, and my aeronca has one, is that in the event of an end clogged breather, the case gets another chance to breath. Now assuming I had a clogged breather, wouldn't that cause the oil to pop out someplace OTHER than the breather tube?) 5. The tube could have frozen up based on the particular conditions of that flight. (Perhaps, but, the OAT never got below 42F, although Ture air temperature was in the 32 range. I regulary check the TAT just for grins. But I still do not understand the physics of why an airborne air temperature sensor, located in my wing root, has to be corrected for airspeed. But thats another topic) Solution: http://www.metronet.com/~dreeves/articles/oilloss.htm My Dipstick WAS loose, although not falling out loose like Kyles in this article above. I did not think anything about it at the time cause I looked at the dipstick tube and did not see anything pouring down it. But it illustrates what a loose dipstick can do. It also tells me my breather is in a low pressure area and needs to be moved. To where I dunno. But Ill look at it. Mike Stewart 730hrs. 14 months RV-6A ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:20:08 AM PST US From: "WALTER KERR" Subject: Re: RV-List: Air Box Advisory --> RV-List message posted by: "WALTER KERR" > --> RV-List message posted by: Bill Marvel > If you can keep Assume that a carb heat system does not > meet this standard and can only raise the temperature by 50 degrees. This > means that for some outside air temperatures, adding full carb heat would > raise the inlet air temperature to a level where passing over the venturi > drops it into the icing range. In such a case, adding carb heat will > actually cause carb ice. Bill, If my physics are correct, it takes two things to form ice: moisture and temperature below freezing. I think the reason that you do not form ice in very cold conditions is that the air can not hold any significant moisture at 100% humidity. I can not envision that we are flying in dry cold air that getting the carb warmed up ( by adding carb heat) to the normal ambient icing temperature of say 40 degrees temp before the venturi will ever form ice. Bernie Kerr, 6A flying, 9A rotary building, SE Fla ( ice is not my expertise ) ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:24:46 AM PST US From: "Andy Karmy" Subject: RV-List: Grand Rapids EIS Tach connection --> RV-List message posted by: "Andy Karmy" Here's a bit of data for the archives and others that are considering this option. I have the Grand Rapids EIS gauge for engine instrumentation. In an effort to allow Tach readings with both one Mag and one electronic Ign I picked up Vans tach sender. Found out about this from the archives... So the sender sends out 8 pulses per revolution... So far so good... The EIS is configurable to detect any config that you might have. Problem is you don't configure it for 8 pulses per revolution as the Tach drive is a .5 to 1 ratio... I never saw mention of this before. The correct value for the EIS is 4 pulses per revolution. This is true for my 0-320 setup, and from what I can tell, for all 4 cylender Lycs. - Andy Karmy RV9A Seattle WA Ready for first flight! (waiting on weather) ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:41:35 AM PST US From: Rob Miller Subject: RV-List: Grove Gear Installation Report --> RV-List message posted by: Rob Miller Hi Listers: I am currently retrofitting a set of Grove Airfoiled Gear Legs to my -8 "Bad Cat." Observations: 1. The gear is beautifully crafted. They are more "art" than simply aircraft parts--like a sculpture. All included hardware is top notch, also. I also enjoyed doing business with this company. 2. We began the installation two weeks ago. I had three friends helping who all insisted on resting the forward fuselage/FW junction on a 2 X 12 suspended on saw horses. I had my doubts and should have been more assertive but wasn't, so when the fuse bottom wrinkled I wasn't surprised--and I take the blame. Two full days and $100 worth of parts and pro seal later, it looks good as new. DON'T DO THIS!!! 3. Using a combination of a Hale gear jack, engine hoist (just to stabilize and not to lift entire airframe), and a saw horse under the spar, we installed the new legs in 2 days. Removing and installing the two outboard bolts inside the gear towers was a real test of patience and manual dexterity. (In a completed plane these towers are full of wires, cables, and fuel tubing, and the access holes are small.) 4. Several different brake line fitting orientation and fitting types needed to be used in order for everything to fit. The fuel tank vents needed to be relocated 1.25" farther inboard. 5. Retrofitting the Grove gear IS a big job. It would have been better to return Vans stock gear for a credit during the construction process putting the Grove's on from the get go. I should have the plane flying again this weekend and will be post flight speed and climb comparison data next week. Rob Miller -8 N262RM "Bad Cat" 47 hours http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:44:23 AM PST US From: kempthornes Subject: Re: RV-List: Air Box Advisory --> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes At 01:43 PM 2/20/2003 -0500, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: HCRV6@aol.com > >Am I wrong in assuming that immediate application of full carb heat with >Van's basic air box design when first encountering visible moisture in >anywhere near freezing temperatures would prevent blockage of the filter? I think so, Harry. It is my understanding that the application of full carb heat could do nothing to prevent the problem of snow blocking the air intake. With full carb heat at first sign of snow, snow might be kept from piling up on the air filter and then again, it might not be enough. Imagine that I have created a picture of the system with the air inlet on the left of your screen and the carb on the right side of the screen. The filter is adjacent to the carb. The hot air (carb heat) comes in in the middle of the screen and flows toward the filter and carb. It does nothing for the inlet. Even if the snow laden air can get past the inlet there is no perfect assurance that it will *ALL* get melted before it meets the filter. My Debonair has a control in the cockpit for 'alternate air' which lets air from the warmer engine compartment get to the throttle without going thru the air cleaner etc. K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne RV6-a N7HK flying! PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA) ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:45:44 AM PST US From: Bill Marvel Subject: Re: RV-List: Air Box Advisory --> RV-List message posted by: Bill Marvel Cheers, Bernie: You're absolutely correct. Too cold, too hot, or too dry and you won't get carb ice. Inside that range, however, there are combinations that will cause it. What exactly are those combinations? I don't have a clue. I do know that this is the reason why the standard is a 90 degree F raise in air inlet temp and that partial carb heat should not be used unless you have a carb air temp gauge and know you are not in the problem area. You may not believe this, but I have actually been in sunny FL when it was really cold and really damp! Of course, that never happens out here in So.Cal..... Bill Marvel WALTER KERR wrote: > > Bill, > > If my physics are correct, it takes two things to form ice: moisture and > temperature below freezing. I think the reason that you do not form ice in > very cold conditions is that the air can not hold any significant moisture > at 100% humidity. I can not envision that we are flying in dry cold air that > getting the carb warmed up ( by adding carb heat) to the normal ambient > icing temperature of say 40 degrees temp before the venturi will ever form > ice. > > Bernie Kerr, 6A flying, 9A rotary building, SE Fla ( ice is not my > expertise ) ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:53:49 AM PST US From: kempthornes Subject: Re: RV-List: Air Box Advisory --> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes At 02:25 AM 2/21/2003 -0800, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer > > >Legally you are not to fly into known icing conditions. Flying in snow is not necessarily flying in known ice. >It just irritates the hell out of me when I hear people say well I might >be in a situation where I can't help flying into some kind of adverse >weather, that is total BS, anyone with their eyeballs open can see what >kind of weather they are flying in and take preventative action. IFR?? What if it is all you can do to see the wingtips? How about in rain at night? K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne RV6-a N7HK flying! PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA) ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:01:49 AM PST US From: "Chris Good" Subject: Re: RV-List: Air Box Advisory --> RV-List message posted by: "Chris Good" Hal, While Van's standard air filter box may not be perfect, the application of carb heat at the first sign of snow should prevent any further build-up of snow on the air filter. The carb heat mechanism closes the air inlet opening so that all (depending on how good a seal you have) air is coming from inside the cowl via whatever carb heat muff you have. I think it's unlikely that this air would contain much, if any, snow, by the time it's gone past the cylinders. Regards, Chris Good, West Bend, WI RV-6A, 500 hrs flying. -- On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 09:45:25 kempthornes wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes > >At 01:43 PM 2/20/2003 -0500, you wrote: >>--> RV-List message posted by: HCRV6@aol.com >> >>Am I wrong in assuming that immediate application of full carb heat with >>Van's basic air box design when first encountering visible moisture in >>anywhere near freezing temperatures would prevent blockage of the filter? > >I think so, Harry. It is my understanding that the application of full >carb heat could do nothing to prevent the problem of snow blocking the air >intake. With full carb heat at first sign of snow, snow might be kept from >piling up on the air filter and then again, it might not be >enough. Imagine that I have created a picture of the system with the air >inlet on the left of your screen and the carb on the right side of the >screen. The filter is adjacent to the carb. The hot air (carb heat) comes >in in the middle of the screen and flows toward the filter and carb. It >does nothing for the inlet. > >Even if the snow laden air can get past the inlet there is no perfect >assurance that it will *ALL* get melted before it meets the filter. My >Debonair has a control in the cockpit for 'alternate air' which lets air >from the warmer engine compartment get to the throttle without going thru >the air cleaner etc. > > >K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne >RV6-a N7HK flying! >PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA) ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:17:36 AM PST US From: HCRV6@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Air Box Advisory --> RV-List message posted by: HCRV6@aol.com In a message dated 2/21/03 9:45:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, kempthornes@earthlink.net writes: snip << Imagine that I have created a picture of the system with the air inlet on the left of your screen and the carb on the right side of the screen. The filter is adjacent to the carb. The hot air (carb heat) comes in the middle of the screen and flows toward the filter and carb. It does nothing for the inlet. Even if the snow laden air can get past the inlet there is no perfect assurance that it will *ALL* get melted before it meets the filter. My Debonair has a control in the cockpit for 'alternate air' which lets air from the warmer engine compartment get to the throttle without going thru the air cleaner etc. >> Maybe I'm confused Hal but it seem like you left out an important element, i.e., the carb heat door. When full carb heat is applied I don't understand how snow can get passed the flapper door, assuming it's properly fitted. From that point only heated air from the engine compartment can enter the air box. So if full heat is applied at the first sign of snow, no snow in the filter. What am I missing? But then I also don't understand how heating dry air well below freezing temperature adds moisture to create ice in the venturi, so I'm eager to learn more. Harry Crosby Pleasanton, California RV-6, firewall forward ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:19:34 AM PST US From: SportAV8R@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Air Box Advisory --> RV-List message posted by: SportAV8R@aol.com In a message dated 02/21/2003 2:02:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, chrisjgood@lycos.com writes: > While Van's standard air filter box may not be perfect, the application of > carb heat at the first sign of snow should prevent any further build-up of > snow on the air filter. The carb heat mechanism closes the air inlet > opening so that all (depending on how good a seal you have) air is coming > from inside the cowl via whatever carb heat muff you have. I think it's > unlikely that this air would contain much, if any, snow, by the time it's > gone past the cylinders. > > I was just waiting for someone to make that (obvious) point. Thank you! (Another reason not to use "partial" carb heat...) do not archive -Bill B ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:00:32 PM PST US From: Jerry Springer Subject: Re: RV-List: Air Box Advisory --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer To add a little bit to what Bill is saying but has not said I don't think is... When air passes through the carb venturi the venturi action well speed up the air which well cause the air temperature to fall as much as 70 degrees as it passes through the venturi. That is why you can get carb ice even on days you think are to warm for ice especially if there is moisture present. It takes very little heat to rise the inlet temp enough to not allow ice to form. The problem the original poster had was blocked filter which is different than carb ice. Jerry ---------- HCRV6@aol.com wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: HCRV6@aol.com > > In a message dated 2/21/03 9:45:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, > kempthornes@earthlink.net writes: > > snip << Imagine that I have created a picture of the system with the air > inlet on the left of your screen and the carb on the right side of the > screen. The filter is adjacent to the carb. The hot air (carb heat) comes > in the middle of the screen and flows toward the filter and carb. It > does nothing for the inlet. > > Even if the snow laden air can get past the inlet there is no perfect > assurance that it will *ALL* get melted before it meets the filter. My > Debonair has a control in the cockpit for 'alternate air' which lets air > from the warmer engine compartment get to the throttle without going thru > the air cleaner etc. >> > > Maybe I'm confused Hal but it seem like you left out an important > element, i.e., the carb heat door. When full carb heat is applied I don't > understand how snow can get passed the flapper door, assuming it's > properly fitted. From that point only heated air from the engine > compartment can enter the air box. So if full heat is applied at the first > sign of snow, no snow in the filter. What am I missing? > > But then I also don't understand how heating dry air well below freezing > temperature adds moisture to create ice in the venturi, so I'm eager to learn > more. > > Harry Crosby > Pleasanton, California > RV-6, firewall forward > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:13:43 PM PST US From: "Tracy Crook" Subject: Re: RV-List: Grove Gear Installation Report --> RV-List message posted by: "Tracy Crook" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob Miller" Subject: RV-List: Grove Gear Installation Report > --> RV-List message posted by: Rob Miller > > Hi Listers: > > I am currently retrofitting a set of Grove Airfoiled Gear Legs to my -8 > "Bad Cat." Observations: > > 1. The gear is beautifully crafted. They are more "art" than simply > aircraft parts--like a sculpture. All included hardware is top notch, > also. I also enjoyed doing business with this company. > > 2. We began the installation two weeks ago. I had three friends helping > who all insisted on resting the forward fuselage/FW junction on a 2 X 12 > suspended on saw horses. I had my doubts and should have been more > assertive but wasn't, so when the fuse bottom wrinkled I wasn't > surprised--and I take the blame. Two full days and $100 worth of parts and > pro seal later, it looks good as new. DON'T DO THIS!!! > > 3. Using a combination of a Hale gear jack, engine hoist (just to > stabilize and not to lift entire airframe), and a saw horse under the > spar, we installed the new legs in 2 days. Removing and installing the > two outboard bolts inside the gear towers was a real test of patience and > manual dexterity. (In a completed plane these towers are full of wires, > cables, and fuel tubing, and the access holes are small.) > > 4. Several different brake line fitting orientation and fitting types > needed to be used in order for everything to fit. The fuel tank vents > needed to be relocated 1.25" farther inboard. > > 5. Retrofitting the Grove gear IS a big job. It would have been better > to return Vans stock gear for a credit during the construction process > putting the Grove's on from the get go. > > I should have the plane flying again this weekend and will be post flight > speed and climb comparison data next week. > > Rob Miller > -8 N262RM "Bad Cat" 47 hours Thanks for the info Bob. I'm installing the airfoil aluminum Grove gear on my -8 (from the beginning). I'm doing it mainly for the weight savings. Did you do any careful comparison between weight of stock gear (including fairings, brake lines, etc) and the Grove? Inquiring weight freaks want to know....... Tracy Crook RV-4 N84TC "RVotter" RV-8 N109TC "RV8R" (Rotary) ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:34:27 PM PST US From: Jerry Springer Subject: Re: RV-List: Air Box Advisory --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer kempthornes wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes > > At 02:25 AM 2/21/2003 -0800, you wrote: > >>--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer >> >> >>Legally you are not to fly into known icing conditions. > > > Flying in snow is not necessarily flying in known ice. > I guess that is a debate for another time Hal. > >>It just irritates the hell out of me when I hear people say well I might >>be in a situation where I can't help flying into some kind of adverse >>weather, that is total BS, anyone with their eyeballs open can see what >>kind of weather they are flying in and take preventative action. > My friend, and a lot of others friend Bill Benadict would probably be here today if he had just used his eyeballs and stayed out of weather he and the airplane were not qualified to fly into. If you get a weather report and it say known icing you don't go IFR or otherwise. If you are flying IFR and encounter ice once again do whatever it takes to get the hell out of it. I have had 1/4" all over the leading edges and canopy of my RV-6 and I don't like it. so land as soon as possible > > IFR?? What if it is all you can do to see the wingtips? How about in rain > at night? > First I would not fly mine at night IFR in the rain I guess that is me being cautious and 39 years flying experience and 29 years flight instructing. Do you fly yours at night in the rain in hard IFR? Everyone, if you want to install alternate air doors etc. go ahead if it makes you feel better. The botton line is understand your limatations and the limatations of the airplane. Jerry do not archive > K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne > RV6-a N7HK flying! > PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA) > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:36:29 PM PST US From: Rob Miller Subject: Re: RV-List: Grove Gear Installation Report --> RV-List message posted by: Rob Miller Stock Gear Leg (Left only) 20 lbs. Grove Streamline (Left only) 14.5 Rob Miller -8 N262RM "Bad Cat" 47 hours > Thanks for the info Bob. I'm installing the airfoil aluminum Grove gear > on > my -8 (from the beginning). I'm doing it mainly for the weight > savings. > Did you do any careful comparison between weight of stock gear > (including > fairings, brake lines, etc) and the Grove? Inquiring weight freaks want > to > know....... > > Tracy Crook > RV-4 N84TC "RVotter" > RV-8 N109TC "RV8R" (Rotary) http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:26:58 PM PST US From: Chris Subject: RV-List: large OD, thin wall tubing? --> RV-List message posted by: Chris Does anyone know where I can get a few feet of aluminum tubing in the range of 3.5" to 4" OD with a wall of around .030" to .065", thicker would be "acceptable" as long as it wasn't more than .125. What ever the wall, I need the ID to be 3.25" or larger. I need 2 pieces of 24" to 30" each, depending on the diameter. (Small diameter, long length; large diameter, short length.) The Yard has some 4" stuff but they have a $100 minimum and the only other aluminum I need is just a small sheet to use to cap one end of each tube. BTW I could use copper, brass, bronze, or stainless steel too, but I figure they would all be a lot more expensive than aluminum. Just in case you were wondering it is for a wave guide antenna for wireless networking over long distances. do not archive -- Chris Woodhouse 3147 SW 127th St. Oklahoma City, OK 73170 405-691-5206 (home) chrisw@programmer.net N35 20.492' W97 34.342' ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:51:24 PM PST US From: kempthornes Subject: Re: RV-List: Air Box Advisory --> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes At 02:16 PM 2/21/2003 -0500, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: HCRV6@aol.com > > Maybe I'm confused Hal but it seem like you left out an important >element, i.e., the carb heat door. Ah, yes, the carb heat door. I shoulda looked at my drawing closer! As Rasanna Rosanna Danna used to say, "Never mind". What is the smiley for red faced? K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne RV6-a N7HK flying! PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA) ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:29:08 PM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: large OD, thin wall tubing? --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" Aircraft Spruce sells 6061-T6 with 3" OD in .035 or .065 thickness, and 4" OD with 035 or .049 thickness. Expensive, though! Between $10 and $30 per foot! do not archive )_( Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" Subject: RV-List: large OD, thin wall tubing? > --> RV-List message posted by: Chris > > Does anyone know where I can get a few feet of aluminum tubing in the > range of 3.5" to 4" OD with a wall of around .030" to .065", thicker > would be "acceptable" as long as it wasn't more than .125. What ever > the wall, I need the ID to be 3.25" or larger. I need 2 pieces of 24" > to 30" each, depending on the diameter. (Small diameter, long length; > large diameter, short length.) The Yard has some 4" stuff but they have > a $100 minimum and the only other aluminum I need is just a small sheet > to use to cap one end of each tube. BTW I could use copper, brass, > bronze, or stainless steel too, but I figure they would all be a lot > more expensive than aluminum. Just in case you were wondering it is for > a wave guide antenna for wireless networking over long distances. > > > do not archive > > -- > Chris Woodhouse > 3147 SW 127th St. > Oklahoma City, OK 73170 > 405-691-5206 (home) > chrisw@programmer.net > N35 20.492' > W97 34.342' > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:47:44 PM PST US From: Bill Dube Subject: RV-List: Aluminum source (was: large OD, thin wall tubing?) --> RV-List message posted by: Bill Dube At 02:24 PM 2/21/2003, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Chris > >Does anyone know where I can get a few feet of aluminum tubing in the >range of 3.5" to 4" OD with a wall of around .030" to .065", thicker >would be "acceptable" as long as it wasn't more than .125. ........... Talk to Bob at: ALRECO 11299 Brighton Blvd Henderson, Colorado 303 287-7210 Bob has the most complete and varied stock of aluminium I have ever seen. He has both new and recycled. Name the alloy and the shape an Bob will likely have it. He doesn't mind small orders or cut-to-order. He is glad to ship anywhere. His prices are quite good too. Keep in mind that new is more expensive than recycled and that each cut costs you. Sometimes it is less expensive to buy twice as much to avoid the cut charge, especially if you are buying recycled. If you are not sure of the alloy you need, tell Bob what you plan to do and he will help you pick out the alloy. If you are anywhere near by, it is worth the trip just to see the place and to meet Bob. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 02:54:34 PM PST US From: Bill Dube Subject: Re: RV-List: large OD, thin wall tubing? --> RV-List message posted by: Bill Dube At 02:24 PM 2/21/2003, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Chris > >Does anyone know where I can get a few feet of aluminum tubing in the >range of 3.5" to 4" OD with a wall of around .030" to .065", thicker >would be "acceptable" as long as it wasn't more than .125. I should also mention that you could have this rolled from sheet stock and then seam welded. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:15:10 PM PST US From: Charlie & Tupper England Subject: Re: RV-List: large OD, thin wall tubing? --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie & Tupper England Chris wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Chris > >Does anyone know where I can get a few feet of aluminum tubing in the >range of 3.5" to 4" OD with a wall of around .030" to .065", thicker >would be "acceptable" as long as it wasn't more than .125. What ever >the wall, I need the ID to be 3.25" or larger. I need 2 pieces of 24" >to 30" each, depending on the diameter. (Small diameter, long length; >large diameter, short length.) The Yard has some 4" stuff but they have >a $100 minimum and the only other aluminum I need is just a small sheet >to use to cap one end of each tube. BTW I could use copper, brass, >bronze, or stainless steel too, but I figure they would all be a lot >more expensive than aluminum. Just in case you were wondering it is for >a wave guide antenna for wireless networking over long distances. > > >do not archive > >-- >Chris Woodhouse >3147 SW 127th St. >Oklahoma City, OK 73170 >405-691-5206 (home) >chrisw@programmer.net >N35 20.492' >W97 34.342' > Chris, check local classifieds for used irrigation pipe. If you don't have any luck, try local farmers. I recently bought some 6" dia X 30' pcs for $30 ea. (Hangar-door frame project) The same guy had some 4" also. Another viable source in OKC should be contractors who install compressed fluids handling equipment. We recently had a new compressed air plumbing system installed in the place where I work, the main lines were 4" copper. If you can tolerate steel, try an electrical supply house & ask for 'EMT' (thin wall steel conduit) They might even have large diameter conduit in aluminum. Good luck! Charlie ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 03:59:31 PM PST US From: Lenleg@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Oil on Belly --> RV-List message posted by: Lenleg@aol.com Kyle & List: In the article posted earlier on your oil loss that Lycoming said your breather was beveled the wrong way - creating a vacumn. What is the correct way? I am getting more oil on the belly than I feel is normal ... yet there are no leaks in the engine compartment and the dip stick is tight. I think this could possibly be my problem. Thanks !! Len Leggette, RV-8A Greensboro, NC N910LL 56 hours ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:31:02 PM PST US From: "Jordan Grant" Subject: RV-List: UV Smooth Prime - What is "crosslink"? --> RV-List message posted by: "Jordan Grant" Question for the All-knowing RV-List crowd (archive search was not successful): I am going to use some UV Smooth Prime on some fiberglass parts. It comes with some "crosslinker". 1. What is 'crosslinker'? 2. Is it required to make the paint work? 3. How critical are the proportions to the regular paint? Thanks! Jordan Grant RV-6 Fiberglass stuff ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:52:48 PM PST US From: "Shelley Holloway" Subject: RV-List: Re: Air Box Advisory --> RV-List message posted by: "Shelley Holloway" Subject: Re: Air Box Advisory From: Jerry Springer (jsflyrv@earthlink.net) --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer kempthornes wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes > > At 02:25 AM 2/21/2003 -0800, you wrote: > >>--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer >> >> >>Legally you are not to fly into known icing conditions. > > > Flying in snow is not necessarily flying in known ice. > I guess that is a debate for another time Hal. > >>It just irritates the hell out of me when I hear people say well I might >>be in a situation where I can't help flying into some kind of adverse >>weather, that is total BS, anyone with their eyeballs open can see what >>kind of weather they are flying in and take preventative action. > My friend, and a lot of others friend Bill Benadict would probably be here today if he had just used his eyeballs and stayed out of weather he and the airplane were not qualified to fly into. If you get a weather report and it say known icing you don't go IFR or otherwise. If you are flying IFR and encounter ice once again do whatever it takes to get the hell out of it. I have had 1/4" all over the leading edges and canopy of my RV-6 and I don't like it. so land as soon as possible > > IFR?? What if it is all you can do to see the wingtips? How about in rain > at night? > First I would not fly mine at night IFR in the rain I guess that is me being cautious and 39 years flying experience and 29 years flight instructing. Do you fly yours at night in the rain in hard IFR? Everyone, if you want to install alternate air doors etc. go ahead if it makes you feel better. The botton line is understand your limatations and the limatations of the airplane. Jerry do not archive > K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne > RV6-a N7HK flying! > PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA) > > I have to agree with Hal, flying in snow does not necessarily mean flying in icing conditions. Flying here in Michigan, I don't have the luxury of 364 out of 365 days of nice sunny CAVU VFR like some other parts of the country, so if you don't want to sit on the ground waiting for those couple perfect days a year, you have to learn what is tolerable weather to fly in. I agree, know your limitiations, and your plane's limitiations, but if you can remove a limitation, then why not do it. I plan on installing the alternate air door. Phil ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 04:54:56 PM PST US From: "Philip Wiethe" Subject: RV-List: Re: Air Box Advisory --> RV-List message posted by: "Philip Wiethe" Subject: Re: Air Box Advisory From: Jerry Springer (jsflyrv@earthlink.net) --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer kempthornes wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes > > At 02:25 AM 2/21/2003 -0800, you wrote: > >>--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer >> >> >>Legally you are not to fly into known icing conditions. > > > Flying in snow is not necessarily flying in known ice. > I guess that is a debate for another time Hal. > >>It just irritates the hell out of me when I hear people say well I might >>be in a situation where I can't help flying into some kind of adverse >>weather, that is total BS, anyone with their eyeballs open can see what >>kind of weather they are flying in and take preventative action. > My friend, and a lot of others friend Bill Benadict would probably be here today if he had just used his eyeballs and stayed out of weather he and the airplane were not qualified to fly into. If you get a weather report and it say known icing you don't go IFR or otherwise. If you are flying IFR and encounter ice once again do whatever it takes to get the hell out of it. I have had 1/4" all over the leading edges and canopy of my RV-6 and I don't like it. so land as soon as possible > > IFR?? What if it is all you can do to see the wingtips? How about in rain > at night? > First I would not fly mine at night IFR in the rain I guess that is me being cautious and 39 years flying experience and 29 years flight instructing. Do you fly yours at night in the rain in hard IFR? Everyone, if you want to install alternate air doors etc. go ahead if it makes you feel better. The botton line is understand your limatations and the limatations of the airplane. Jerry do not archive > K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne > RV6-a N7HK flying! > PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA) > > I have to agree with Hal, flying in snow does not necessarily mean flying in icing conditions. Flying here in Michigan, I don't have the luxury of 364 out of 365 days of nice sunny CAVU VFR like some other parts of the country, so if you don't want to sit on the ground waiting for those couple perfect days a year, you have to learn what is tolerable weather to fly in. I agree, know your limitiations, and your plane's limitiations, but if you can remove a limitation, then why not do it. I plan on installing the alternate air door. Phil do not archive ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 06:50:36 PM PST US From: Bobby Hester Subject: Re: RV-List: Source for canopy bar grab handles --> RV-List message posted by: Bobby Hester HCRV6@aol.com wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: HCRV6@aol.com > >There recently was a company offering sliding canopy bar grab handles that >did not require welding that had a web site under www.aircraftextras.com. >Does anyone know if they are still around or how to get in touch with them, >the web site has not been responding for several days? > >Do not archive > >Harry Crosby >Pleasanton, California >RV-6, starting firewall forward > > > I just went to the http://www.aircraftextras.com site and it worked fine, if it was down it's up again :-) -- Surfing the Web from Hopkinsville, KY Visit my web site at: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite/ RV7A Slowbuild wings-QB Fuse :-) Rans S12xl For Sale: http://members.hopkinsville.net/bhester/FS.htm ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 09:20:04 PM PST US From: "Chris Good" Subject: RV-List: New EFIS option --> RV-List message posted by: "Chris Good" Someone told me a while ago that Greg Toman at Grand Rapids Technology was going to produce an EFIS. I've been very happy with his EIS-4000 engine monitor, so I've been watching for an announcement. Well it's on his web site now, with availability listed as October 2003: http://hometown.aol.com/enginfosys/EFIStop.htm Wish I was still building :-( Regards, Chris Good, West Bend, WI RV-6A N86CG, 500 hrs flying. ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 10:03:57 PM PST US From: "Kyle Boatright" Subject: Re: RV-List: Oil on Belly --> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright" Originally, the bevil on my breather vent tube faced away from the airstream in the cowling exit. This created a nice venturi when my dipstick wasn't properly installed and pulled quite a bit of oil through the breather. The correct installation is to have the bevil (with the tube cut at roughly a 45 degree angle) facing into the relative windstream. This creates a little backpressure in your breather system, which minimizes leakage but still allows the breather to do its function, which is to more or less equalize crankcase pressure with the outside environment. If this doesn't make sense, let me know and I'll try again tomorrow... KB ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: RV-List: Oil on Belly > --> RV-List message posted by: Lenleg@aol.com > > Kyle & List: > > In the article posted earlier on your oil loss that Lycoming said your > breather was beveled the wrong way - creating a vacumn. What is the correct > way? > > I am getting more oil on the belly than I feel is normal ... yet there are no > leaks in the engine compartment and the dip stick is tight. I think this > could possibly be my problem. > > Thanks !! > > Len Leggette, RV-8A > Greensboro, NC N910LL > 56 hours > >