Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:49 AM - low and slow (JRWillJR@aol.com)
2. 04:39 AM - Re: Alternative Engines (Vaughn Brock Capt ESC/AWXO)
3. 04:49 AM - was Dynon EFIS-D10; now AHRS issues (Sam Buchanan)
4. 05:15 AM - Re: Alternative Engines (do not archive) (WALTER KERR)
5. 05:21 AM - NOSUBJECT (TColeE@aol.com)
6. 05:21 AM - Re: Alternative Engines (John Bright)
7. 05:27 AM - Re: Alternative Engines (Glenn Brasch)
8. 05:38 AM - Re: NOSUBJECT (Jerry Springer)
9. 05:43 AM - Re: NOSUBJECT (TColeE@aol.com)
10. 05:53 AM - Re: OT request (Jerry Calvert)
11. 06:26 AM - CHT Sensors (Ed's Compuserve)
12. 06:27 AM - Re: Fuel injection systems (Scott Bilinski)
13. 07:05 AM - CHT Sensors (Stucklen, Frederic IFC)
14. 07:10 AM - Re: Alternative Engines (Finn Lassen)
15. 07:18 AM - Stupid questions? (Bill VonDane)
16. 07:36 AM - Re: was Dynon EFIS-D10; now AHRS issues (James E. Clark)
17. 07:50 AM - Thermocouples (was: CHT Sensors) (Bill Dube)
18. 08:00 AM - Re: Alternative Engines (Tracy Crook)
19. 08:18 AM - Re: Alternative Engines (Rob Prior)
20. 08:58 AM - Re: Late reply to plane new RV with apparently poor power. (Dwpetrus@aol.com)
21. 09:31 AM - Oakdale, CA Aviation Discovery Day, May 3rd (Rob Miller)
22. 09:38 AM - Re: Late reply to plane new RV with apparently poor (Scott Bilinski)
23. 09:42 AM - Re: Late reply to plane new RV with apparently poor power. (Dwpetrus@aol.com)
24. 10:05 AM - Re: Late reply to plane new RV with apparently poor powe (mstewart@qa.butler.com)
25. 10:29 AM - Re: Getting into avaition (NOT RV related) (KostaLewis)
26. 10:30 AM - Re: Prop Failure research (Vaughn Brock Capt ESC/AWXO)
27. 10:35 AM - Fw: THE EGG BUSINESS (jan) (richard vollenweider)
28. 10:50 AM - Cherry Blind Rivets explanation (linenwool@attbi.com)
29. 10:56 AM - Re: Oakdale, CA Aviation Discovery Day, May 3rd (Scott Vanartsdalen)
30. 11:04 AM - EAA magazines and AOPA (Chris W)
31. 11:15 AM - Re: Late reply to plane new RV with apparently poor (Scott Bilinski)
32. 11:15 AM - Dynon EFIS (John Furey)
33. 11:29 AM - Re: EAA magazines and AOPA (Brian Denk)
34. 11:50 AM - Re: Alternative Engines (JRWillJR@aol.com)
35. 12:19 PM - Re: EAA magazines and AOPA (mstewart@qa.butler.com)
36. 12:22 PM - Re: EAA magazines and AOPA (Michael McGee)
37. 12:25 PM - canopy lock-slider RV-6 (Jim Salyer)
38. 12:26 PM - Re: Late reply to plane new RV with apparently poor (Michael McGee)
39. 01:09 PM - Re: Late reply to plane new RV with apparently poor power. (Greg Young)
40. 01:10 PM - Re: Late reply to plane new RV with apparently poor (Scott Bilinski)
41. 01:22 PM - Re: EAA magazines and AOPA (Greg Young)
42. 01:25 PM - Re: Alternative Engines (JNice51355@aol.com)
43. 01:48 PM - Late Reply (Eustace Bowhay)
44. 01:52 PM - Re: EAA magazines and AOPA (John Starn)
45. 02:03 PM - Re: Late reply to plane new RV with apparently poor (Scott Bilinski)
46. 02:24 PM - was - Late reply to plane, now - who you know helps (RV_8 Pilot)
47. 02:49 PM - Re: EAA magazines and AOPA (kempthornes)
48. 02:56 PM - Re: Late reply to plane new RV with apparently poor power. (Alex Peterson)
49. 05:01 PM - Eustace Bowhay (Evan and Megan Johnson)
50. 05:01 PM - Re: EAA magazines and AOPA (mstewart@qa.butler.com)
51. 05:05 PM - Re: EAA magazines and AOPA (Richard Scott)
52. 05:21 PM - Re: Late reply to plane new RV with apparently poor power. (Alex Peterson)
53. 05:38 PM - Re: Cherry Blind Rivets explanation (George McNutt)
54. 05:58 PM - Re: new kid here (Jim Cimino)
55. 06:31 PM - corrosion protection (Joshua Siler)
56. 06:47 PM - FlyIn Breakfast @ KHVC (Bobby Hester)
57. 07:36 PM - Re: corrosion protection (Jim Jewell)
58. 08:00 PM - Re: corrosion protection (Rodney Woodard)
59. 08:01 PM - Re: Eustace Bowhay (Eustace Bowhay)
60. 08:36 PM - WTB RV8 this summer (j tramontano)
61. 09:52 PM - Looking for Headset-Off Topic (Glenn Brasch)
62. 09:57 PM - Power (Wheeler North)
Message 1
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--> RV-List message posted by: JRWillJR@aol.com
"I didn't chase them for 20 minutes, though.=A0 Holy gamoly, anybody=A0 knows
that would over-stress them."
Gosh, how many Gs were those ducks pulling? Can birds over G?
"Since when is flying a privilege."
It isn't a privilege, it is a right, I agree, pursuit of life, liberty and
happiness, that pretty much spells it out. That we allow our over bearing
government to portion out our God given rights does not make it a privilege.
", then the rancher takes a pot shot at me and I
can't blame him."
Hey, that sounds fun, do I get to shoot back?
Just funning you guys. I did read somewhere that Perigrine Falcons can pull
about 12 G, that could be a dream I had though. I do know that ducks and
other large avian creatures are not a good thing if they go through the prop
or screen. I don't advocate harrasing property (cows) or wildlife but
shooting at an aircraft with human beings on board seems like a much worser
crime to me, I think it is probably a Federal offense and likely murder in
the First degree or attempted murder depending on the result.
I think the Kitfox was a blast flying over the tree tops, waving at cars and
people while hanging out the door openings. The bouyant feel of floating in
the air simply does not exist in aircraft like the RV and most others
likewise. Do Not Archive.
JR
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Alternative Engines |
--> RV-List message posted by: Vaughn Brock Capt ESC/AWXO <Brock.Vaughn@hanscom.af.mil>
Hello Tracy,
I have some advice for you. Join ROTC and fly in the military. If you have
the ability to pass the physical and have more than two marbles in your head
you will easily get selected for pilot training (at least in the Air Force).
Don't kid yourself on an RV-8. They cost $60-100K and I am sure that is
money better spent on getting your ratings and going to school.
I don't share my girlfriend either. However I would have traded her to fly
fighters in a second (well, now that I had my chance I would not, but did at
the same age as you in pilot training). If you don't have that kind of
drive to fly professionally you will never fly commuters and are delirious.
It is a tough market.
Put down the magazines and look at flying for what it is; Expensive.
You're a student and 22. Do the math.
Lastly, unless you are a machinist and have elaborate resources and
experience, I would consider sticking with a winner and keep to the 3000
lycomings currently flying and stay away from 5 rototary engines in service.
BROCK VAUGHN, Capt, USAF
Branch Chief, AWACS Plans, Programs & Operations
ESC/AWXO 3 Eglin Street, Hanscom AFB, MA 01731
Office 781 377-7843 Fax 5776 (DSN 478) Home 781 354-6656
Message 3
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| Subject: | was Dynon EFIS-D10; now AHRS issues |
--> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
"James E. Clark" wrote:
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" <james@nextupventures.com>
>
> Following up on Mike's comment about Paul not being impressed easily.
>
> Having met and talked with Paul on a couple of occasions (TeamRV clinic
> etc.) I had that impression of him. When I pushed the Dynon people about how
> it **appeared** to me that the unit would "gray out" due to the RV roll rate
> that I tried to **simulate** by hand, they told me that some fellow name
> Paul Stratman had been flying one and had reported that it was solid ... as
> in did not get confused.
>
> They did not know that I knew Paul.
>
> Later that day (at SnF) when I saw Paul I asked him about it.
>
> He had good things to say. And from what I can tell, he pushed it pretty
> hard on the maneuvers.
<snip>
It is encouraging to hear a favorable report from the field, and after
more units are in service we will have a better feel for how the
"inexpensive" EFII are fairing.
I want to address a misconception I often see in regards to AHRS
platforms. I have heard several folks (and one manufacturer) state that
aggressive maneuvers didn't upset the platform. That is well and good,
but sudden, brief departures from normal flight are not the most severe
test of an AHRS. I flew an EFIS that could survive an aileron roll, yet
it got tripped up in normal flight conditions.
The most torture you can inflict on an AHRS (or mechanical gyro for that
matter) is a very slow, steady-state maneuver. If you really want to
test the stability of an AHRS platform, initiate a half standard rate
turn and hold it for several hundred degrees. A platform or gyro that is
not stable will slowly erect because it gets confused and forgets that
it is turning. This is why EFIS manufacturers have resorted to either
magnetometer or GPS inputs to assist the platform in knowing it is still
in a yaw maneuver.
If several consecutive standard rate turns can be completed without the
AHRS getting confused.....then you have a stable platform. Being able to
survive hard, quick maneuvers is much easier for the platform because it
doesn't have time to "tumble". One manufacturer has written extensively
about how their system can survive yankin' and bankin' in an
L-39......but so what?
Now....which is more important in IFR flight? I think most would agree
that having a platform that is stable with gentle, gradual excursions
from straight and level is far more important than one that can survive
the occasional aileron roll you may toss into your normal IFR flight in
the clouds. ;-)
The gradual drift issue is the one that has given designers of AHRS
platforms fits. Once it is proven that the Dynons, Grand Rapids, and
Blue Mountains of the world can handle the slow yaw maneuvers......then
we will have a great option for our IFR panels. Hopefully that day is
here or will arrive very soon.
Sam Buchanan (RV-6)
"The RV Journal" http://thervjournal.com
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Alternative Engines (do not archive) |
--> RV-List message posted by: "WALTER KERR" <kerrjb@msn.com>
Hi Tracy,
Live your dream man! Everyone marches to a different drummer. It is OK to to
the math, but do not let it deter you from accomplishing ( or at least
giving it your best shot ) your dream.
Bernie Kerr, 6A flying, 9A rotary power building
. They cost $60-100K and I am sure that is
> money better spent on getting your ratings and going to school.
>
> Put down the magazines and look at flying for what it is; Expensive.
> You're a student and 22. Do the math.
>
> Lastly, unless you are a machinist and have elaborate resources and
> experience, I would consider sticking with a winner and keep to the 3000
> lycomings currently flying and stay away from 5 rototary engines in
service.
>
Message 5
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--> RV-List message posted by: TColeE@aol.com
UN/SUBSCRIBE
Terry E. Cole
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Alternative Engines |
--> RV-List message posted by: John Bright <johninvaus@yahoo.com>
Shame on Mr. Vaughn for the bad vibes! Lighten up!
John Bright
do not archive
http://search.yahoo.com
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Alternative Engines |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Glenn Brasch" <gbrasch@earthlink.net>
To add a little to the good Captain's comments, I would like to say "Go
Confidently Toward Your Dream's, But Check Six." Glenn in AZ building -9A
do not archive.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vaughn Brock Capt ESC/AWXO" <Brock.Vaughn@hanscom.af.mil>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Alternative Engines
> --> RV-List message posted by: Vaughn Brock Capt ESC/AWXO
<Brock.Vaughn@hanscom.af.mil>
>
> Hello Tracy,
>
> I have some advice for you. Join ROTC and fly in the military. If you
have
> the ability to pass the physical and have more than two marbles in your
head
> you will easily get selected for pilot training (at least in the Air
Force).
> Don't kid yourself on an RV-8. They cost $60-100K and I am sure that is
> money better spent on getting your ratings and going to school.
>
> I don't share my girlfriend either. However I would have traded her to
fly
> fighters in a second (well, now that I had my chance I would not, but did
at
> the same age as you in pilot training). If you don't have that kind of
> drive to fly professionally you will never fly commuters and are
delirious.
> It is a tough market.
>
> Put down the magazines and look at flying for what it is; Expensive.
> You're a student and 22. Do the math.
>
> Lastly, unless you are a machinist and have elaborate resources and
> experience, I would consider sticking with a winner and keep to the 3000
> lycomings currently flying and stay away from 5 rototary engines in
service.
>
> BROCK VAUGHN, Capt, USAF
> Branch Chief, AWACS Plans, Programs & Operations
> ESC/AWXO 3 Eglin Street, Hanscom AFB, MA 01731
> Office 781 377-7843 Fax 5776 (DSN 478) Home 781 354-6656
>
>
Message 8
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--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
Terry as long as you have been here you still don't know how to
unsubscribe? :-)
do not archive
TColeE@aol.com wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: TColeE@aol.com
>
> UN/SUBSCRIBE
>
> Terry E. Cole
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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--> RV-List message posted by: TColeE@aol.com
I guess I am a slow learner.
Terry E. Cole
Message 10
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Jerry Calvert" <rv6@cox.net>
Chris,
Doug Lomheim, who is building a 9a, lives on Twin lakes. His email is:
DLOMHEIM@aol.com
Jerry Calvert
Edmond Ok
RV6 N296JC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Karie Daniel" <karie4@attbi.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: OT request
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Karie Daniel" <karie4@attbi.com>
>
> Have you tried either of these contacts?
>
> Ownership: Privately-owned
> Owner: PILOTS HAVEN AIRPORT INC
> 13812 CHANDELLE DR
> NEWALLA, OK 74857
> Phone 405-799-0096
> Manager: HAROLD HOLLAND, PRES
> 13812 CHANDELLE DR
> NEWALLA, OK 74857
> Phone 405-799-0096
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris W" <chrisw3@cox.net>
> To: "vansairforce" <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>; "RV-list"
> <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RV-List: OT request
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: Chris W <chrisw3@cox.net>
> >
> > I am looking to contact the owner/manager of 2OK2 - TWIN LAKES AIRPORT
> > but the phone number I find online doesn't seem to be correct. I
> > thought I heard of an RV-8 owner on the list that had his plane out
> > there maybe he knows the right number.
> >
> > --
> > Chris Woodhouse
> > 3147 SW 127th St.
> > Oklahoma City, OK 73170
> > 405-691-5206
> > chrisw@programmer.net
> > N35 20.492'
> > W97 34.342'
> >
> > "They that can give up essential liberty
> > to obtain a little temporary safety
> > deserve neither liberty nor safety."
> > -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania
> >
> >
>
>
Message 11
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Ed's Compuserve" <edwardoconnor@compuserve.com>
I have ordered an XP 360 Engine kit and they have asked me some questions
about the CHT sensors I'm using. My question is which is better, Type J or
Type K or does it matter and what is the difference on the cylinders of the
engine. I think I know the difference but not sure. My EFIS can use either
type sensor. I do know the Type J TC puts out 10MV/Degree and the Type K 7.5
MV/Degree. What is the advantage to the Plug type compression ring verses
the probe type? Any info would be helpful. Thanks
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel injection systems |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
I have it, but not a running engine yet. I belive it to be superior in all
aspects to the Bendix system. It has a bypass valve mounted right before
the spider. So on a hot start you pull the bypass valve cable and it
flushes all engine compartment fuel back to the tank. This is a nice
feature if you live in a hot area. It also has replaceable jets so you can
fine tune the system as long as you have a fuel flow meter. The best
endorsement there is, Sean Tucker uses it. Of course you know its for none
certified aircraft right? Give them a call they are very helpful.
At 08:26 PM 4/15/03 -0700, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Geoff Evans <hellothaimassage@yahoo.com>
>
>Can someone briefly compare and contrast the Bendix and Airflow Performance
>fuel injection systems?
>
>The Airflow Performance website is sorely lacking in the information
>department, and I'm looking for something to help me decide which system to
>use.
>
>Thanks.
>-Geoff
>RV-8 QB fuselage
>
>http://search.yahoo.com
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 13
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Stucklen, Frederic IFC" <Fred.Stucklen@UTCFuelCells.com>
Ed,
The type J TC has better resolution at 10mV/degree. Probes are more
accurate relative to the plug type compression ring. They are also less
prone to breakage.....
Fred Stucklen
RV-6A N926RV reserved
RV-6A N925RV 2008 Hrs of wonderful flying!
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ed's Compuserve" on Wed, Apr 16 -
6:26AM
I have ordered an XP 360 Engine kit and they have asked me some
questions
about the CHT sensors I'm using. My question is which is better,
Type J or
Type K or does it matter and what is the difference on the cylinders
of the
engine. I think I know the difference but not sure. My EFIS can use
either
type sensor. I do know the Type J TC puts out 10MV/Degree and the
Type K 7.5
MV/Degree. What is the advantage to the Plug type compression ring
verses
the probe type? Any info would be helpful. Thanks
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Alternative Engines |
--> RV-List message posted by: Finn Lassen <finnlassen@netzero.net>
If you put in a brand new Lycoming and expensive avionics, sure they may
cost $60-100K.
But with an inexpensive Mazda Rotary and sparse panel, $30K could be
quite real.
You don't have to be a machinist and have elaborate resources either. I
put a Mazda 13-B in my RV-3 and was flying for less than $18K, including
RV-3 kit, engine and accessories, instruments, tools, freight, hangar
rent: everything!
Finn
Vaughn Brock Capt ESC/AWXO wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Vaughn Brock Capt ESC/AWXO <Brock.Vaughn@hanscom.af.mil>
>
>Hello Tracy,
>
>I have some advice for you. Join ROTC and fly in the military. If you have
>the ability to pass the physical and have more than two marbles in your head
>you will easily get selected for pilot training (at least in the Air Force).
>Don't kid yourself on an RV-8. They cost $60-100K and I am sure that is
>money better spent on getting your ratings and going to school.
>
>
...
Message 15
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"vansairforce" <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
| Subject: | Stupid questions? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
Hi all... Just sitting here at work trying to get ready for my annual
condition inspection and need some help...
What part number, and where do I get a brake lining kit, and what size
tire/tube do I have on the nose?
DUH! Thanks!
-Bill VonDane
RV-8A ~ N8WV - I can't believe it's been a year already!
www.vondane.com
Message 16
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| Subject: | was Dynon EFIS-D10; now AHRS issues |
--> RV-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" <james@nextupventures.com>
Points well taken Sam.
I was just trying to make two points.
1. Someone has flown the Dynon in an RV and had *good* things to say about
it ... so far.
2. A concern I had from just *holding* the thing (easily upset?) was
minimized by my conversation (quick) with Paul.
There is much more "testing" needed on all of these "new-fangled" (for us
folks) toys.
I anxiously await a report from the GRT side of the fence as well, as if
they can do what the are claiming, then we will have at least three
offerings in three *different* spaces (literally and figuratively) to choose
from.
James
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Sam Buchanan
> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 7:48 AM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV-List: was Dynon EFIS-D10; now AHRS issues
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
>
>
> "James E. Clark" wrote:
> >
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "James E. Clark"
> <james@nextupventures.com>
> >
> > Following up on Mike's comment about Paul not being impressed easily.
> >
> > Having met and talked with Paul on a couple of occasions (TeamRV clinic
> > etc.) I had that impression of him. When I pushed the Dynon
> people about how
> > it **appeared** to me that the unit would "gray out" due to the
> RV roll rate
> > that I tried to **simulate** by hand, they told me that some fellow name
> > Paul Stratman had been flying one and had reported that it was
> solid ... as
> > in did not get confused.
> >
> > They did not know that I knew Paul.
> >
> > Later that day (at SnF) when I saw Paul I asked him about it.
> >
> > He had good things to say. And from what I can tell, he pushed it pretty
> > hard on the maneuvers.
> <snip>
>
> It is encouraging to hear a favorable report from the field, and after
> more units are in service we will have a better feel for how the
> "inexpensive" EFII are fairing.
>
> I want to address a misconception I often see in regards to AHRS
> platforms. I have heard several folks (and one manufacturer) state that
> aggressive maneuvers didn't upset the platform. That is well and good,
> but sudden, brief departures from normal flight are not the most severe
> test of an AHRS. I flew an EFIS that could survive an aileron roll, yet
> it got tripped up in normal flight conditions.
>
> The most torture you can inflict on an AHRS (or mechanical gyro for that
> matter) is a very slow, steady-state maneuver. If you really want to
> test the stability of an AHRS platform, initiate a half standard rate
> turn and hold it for several hundred degrees. A platform or gyro that is
> not stable will slowly erect because it gets confused and forgets that
> it is turning. This is why EFIS manufacturers have resorted to either
> magnetometer or GPS inputs to assist the platform in knowing it is still
> in a yaw maneuver.
>
> If several consecutive standard rate turns can be completed without the
> AHRS getting confused.....then you have a stable platform. Being able to
> survive hard, quick maneuvers is much easier for the platform because it
> doesn't have time to "tumble". One manufacturer has written extensively
> about how their system can survive yankin' and bankin' in an
> L-39......but so what?
>
> Now....which is more important in IFR flight? I think most would agree
> that having a platform that is stable with gentle, gradual excursions
> from straight and level is far more important than one that can survive
> the occasional aileron roll you may toss into your normal IFR flight in
> the clouds. ;-)
>
> The gradual drift issue is the one that has given designers of AHRS
> platforms fits. Once it is proven that the Dynons, Grand Rapids, and
> Blue Mountains of the world can handle the slow yaw maneuvers......then
> we will have a great option for our IFR panels. Hopefully that day is
> here or will arrive very soon.
>
> Sam Buchanan (RV-6)
> "The RV Journal" http://thervjournal.com
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Thermocouples (was: CHT Sensors) |
--> RV-List message posted by: Bill Dube <bdube@boulder.nist.gov>
>. I do know the Type J TC puts out 10MV/Degree and the Type K 7.5
>MV/Degree.
I can't speak for aircraft-specific instruments, but in general,
Type K is in far more common use than Type J.
At room temperature, Type K has a Seebeck coefficient of just over
40 uV per degree Celsius. (22 uV per degree F) Type J has a Seebeck
coefficient of about 51 uV per degree Celsius. (28 uV per degree F)
Type K has a more constant Seebeck coefficient than Type J. That
is, as the temperature goes up, the uV/degree does not vary much. Thus,
cheapie instruments will report a more accurate temperature with Type K.
Conversely, high-quality microprocessor instruments, with an internal
look-up table or formula, will work equally well with Type K or Type J.
Type K thermocouple wires are much more resistant to oxidation at
elevated temperatures than Type J. The iron positive wire particularly does
not fair well in moist air at high temperatures. Both elements of the Type
K are nickel alloys and thus are quite resistant to corrosion.
Bottom line: Pick the instrument you plan to use and select the
thermocouple to go with it. If the instrument will take either J or K, pick K.
Well... you asked...... :-)
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Alternative Engines |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Tracy Crook" <lors01@msn.com>
I think you meant this to be addressed to the new guy (not Tracy) but can't
resist the urge to respond.
Flying in the military is a good and honorable profession but it's not for
everyone.
I personally want to fly when, where, what and how I want to. By building
my own planes I have had the good fortune to live my own dream and I would
not trade that for a seat in any fighter jet, past present or future. I get
to play any and all parts of the aviation picture I want, designer,
aerodynamicist, builder, systems engineer and test pilot. I make all the
decisions with no compromise and suffer the consequences for my mistakes and
no one else's.
A military pilot doesn't have a prayer of doing that.
BTW, my RV-4 cost $19K total to build, and it was one of the best
investments in happiness I ever made.
And in the final analysis, happiness is what it's all about.
Enjoy the ride!
Tracy Crook
> --> RV-List message posted by: Vaughn Brock Capt ESC/AWXO
<Brock.Vaughn@hanscom.af.mil>
>
> Hello Tracy,
>
> I have some advice for you. Join ROTC and fly in the military. If you
have
> the ability to pass the physical and have more than two marbles in your
head
> you will easily get selected for pilot training (at least in the Air
Force).
> Don't kid yourself on an RV-8. They cost $60-100K and I am sure that is
> money better spent on getting your ratings and going to school.
>
> I don't share my girlfriend either. However I would have traded her to
fly
> fighters in a second (well, now that I had my chance I would not, but did
at
> the same age as you in pilot training). If you don't have that kind of
> drive to fly professionally you will never fly commuters and are
delirious.
> It is a tough market.
>
> Put down the magazines and look at flying for what it is; Expensive.
> You're a student and 22. Do the math.
>
> Lastly, unless you are a machinist and have elaborate resources and
> experience, I would consider sticking with a winner and keep to the 3000
> lycomings currently flying and stay away from 5 rototary engines in
service.
>
> BROCK VAUGHN, Capt, USAF
> Branch Chief, AWACS Plans, Programs & Operations
> ESC/AWXO 3 Eglin Street, Hanscom AFB, MA 01731
> Office 781 377-7843 Fax 5776 (DSN 478) Home 781 354-6656
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Alternative Engines |
--> RV-List message posted by: Rob Prior <rv7@b4.ca>
Vaughn Brock Capt ESC/AWXO wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Vaughn Brock Capt ESC/AWXO <Brock.Vaughn@hanscom.af.mil>
>
> Put down the magazines and look at flying for what it is; Expensive.
> You're a student and 22. Do the math.
What's your point? That he'll never be a pilot, or that he'll never own
an RV? Sheesh. If I met people like you during my introduction to
flying, i'd be neither flying nor building my own RV right now. Lighten up!
> Lastly, unless you are a machinist and have elaborate resources and
> experience, I would consider sticking with a winner and keep to the 3000
> lycomings currently flying and stay away from 5 rototary engines in service.
Spoken like a true Lycoming employee... 8-) If we want cheaper
powerplants, *someone* has to push the envelope to develop them. You
can be certain that Lycoming won't be doing it.
> BROCK VAUGHN, Capt, USAF
> Branch Chief, AWACS Plans, Programs & Operations
Sounds like a desk job to me...
-RB4
---------
Rob Prior
rv7 "at" b4 "dot" ca
-----------------------------
Stop Dreaming... Start Flying
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Late reply to plane new RV with apparently poor power. |
--> RV-List message posted by: Dwpetrus@aol.com
Looks like fuel servo was set way too rich. We have sent it back to factory
for repair and should have it back to us by tomorrow.
Thanks,
Wayne Petrus
Message 21
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| Subject: | Oakdale, CA Aviation Discovery Day, May 3rd |
--> RV-List message posted by: Rob Miller <rmill2000@yahoo.com>
Oakdale (O27) is holding its Aviation Discovery Day, on May 3rd. EAA
Chapter 90 is the host of the event an welcomes all RV builders/pilots to
attend. Admission is free. Come and join the other RVs (-4, -6, -8) on
the field. I hope we can have a big RV turnout. The Sacramento RVators
have also been invited. Lots to do and good things to eat.
Rob Miller
N262RM -8 "Bad Cat" 56 hours
http://search.yahoo.com
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Late reply to plane new RV with apparently poor |
power.
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Actually, thats pretty scary. I wonder how close the engine was to
quitting? How come nobody saw any black smoke or was it not rich enough to
smoke?
At 11:56 AM 4/16/03 -0400, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Dwpetrus@aol.com
>
>Looks like fuel servo was set way too rich. We have sent it back to factory
>for repair and should have it back to us by tomorrow.
>
>Thanks,
>Wayne Petrus
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Late reply to plane new RV with apparently poor power. |
--> RV-List message posted by: Dwpetrus@aol.com
no visable smoke
Message 24
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| Subject: | Late reply to plane new RV with apparently poor powe |
r.
tests=AWL,NO_REAL_NAME,ORIGINAL_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST
autolearn=ham version=2.53
--> RV-List message posted by: mstewart@qa.butler.com
Hmmm. Sounds familiar.
Happened on my first flight too on final and touchdown, engine quit.
Only I just adjusted the arm so the full rich stop was leaner. My airborne
flying seemed normal, although I was surely in information overload at the
time and would not have noticed much beyond the wing coming off.
http://www.mstewart.net/michael/rv/flying/firstflight/firstflight.htm
Air Flow Per, Metering valve.
Mike Stewart
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: Dwpetrus@aol.com [mailto:Dwpetrus@aol.com]
Subject: Re: RV-List: Late reply to plane new RV with apparently poor power.
--> RV-List message posted by: Dwpetrus@aol.com
Looks like fuel servo was set way too rich. We have sent it back to factory
for repair and should have it back to us by tomorrow.
Thanks,
Wayne Petrus
Message 25
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| Subject: | Getting into avaition (NOT RV related) |
--> RV-List message posted by: "KostaLewis" <mikel@dimensional.com>
>Hello Tracy,
>I have some advice for you.....(etc.)
>Put down the magazines and look at flying for what it is; Expensive.
>You're a student and 22. Do the math....and other discouraging
>words.......
Ouch. OK. Short story: I left home at the ripe old age of 17 to get my
life going. After High School, I worked several jobs to finance
eventually going to college. I also started flying in earnest at that
time. I thought of military then, too, but the VEET NAMM thing was going
and my eyes weren't good enough to see the bad guys. So id did it on my
own. My instructor flew for a living, oil pipeline patrol, and flew
every day in a PA-18-90 Cub, the kind of airplane I wanted to fly. I had
about 10 hours when he one day announced that if I REALLY wanted to fly,
I needed to buy an airplane. HAHAHAHAHAHAhahahaha ha ha........ahem.
Right. You bet. Park it right over there by the yacht. I was a kid, 21,
trying to save for my future. I couldn't afford what ever airplanes
cost. But I started looking around. Found 2 J-3 Cubs for sale and, after
walking several hundred miles to think about it, bought one of them. Put
off college for a while. That airplane taught me how to fly. And I still
have it. And I am way beyond 21 years old. And I finished college. And
several postgraduate degrees to get where I am now.
Bottom line: is flying expensive? You bet. But have you priced a car
lately? Could buy a nice Mooney for the price of some of them. Or a
Citabria. Or what ever it is you want to fly. Drive a used VW or some
reliable clunker. How about boating. That gets mighty expensive, too.
You can find a way to do whatever it is you want to do. Just have to
figure out what it is and go do it.
You don't need to build an RV right away. Start an Airplane Savings
Account and treat putting money in that as paying off a loan. Start
collecting tools. Then the tail kit. And on and on.............
I started collecting tools 10 years before I finally was in a position
to start building. Now I have one of the best airplanes flying.
So, I agree: do the math. Then go out and find a way to make it work.
IMHO
Michael
RV-4 N232 Suzie Q
Do not archive, it's just dribble....
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Prop Failure research |
--> RV-List message posted by: Vaughn Brock Capt ESC/AWXO <Brock.Vaughn@hanscom.af.mil>
I spoke with Aymar Demuth for an hour and got lots of information I
described in an email called "prop failure research".
Prop inspection was always part of the preflight. I never felt comfortable
with wood props and checked it often before and after flights.
I cant prove it was a manufacturing problem and do not think it was now. I
would speculate the spinner separated and caused the prop failure.
Mike Demuth was very informative and professional. I would buy another wood
prop if the lead time were shorter. My plane is in a NJ and I live in MA.
It is encuring storage fees and I want to get back in the air ASAP.
BROCK VAUGHN, Capt, USAF
Branch Chief, AWACS Plans, Programs & Operations
ESC/AWXO 3 Eglin Street, Hanscom AFB, MA 01731
Office 781 377-7843 Fax 5776 (DSN 478) Home 781 354-6656
Message 27
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|
"Bob Bauman" <rdbauman@secura.net>, "Peter Stehr" <pcs@kleen-tex.at>,
"Linda Bailey" <lnbailey@kleen-tex.com>,
"Joe Walters" <jwalters@knology.net>,
"John Scattergood" <jrscattergood@mindspring.com>,
"Edie Woods" <ewoods@rconnect.com>,
"David Vollenweider" <davidv@teleclipse.net>,
"Charlene Spinks" <cmuses@yahoo.com>, "Joyce Kniffen" <auoma@aol.com>
| Subject: | Fw: THE EGG BUSINESS (jan) |
--> RV-List message posted by: "richard vollenweider" <swiss@charter.net>
> > THE EGG BUSINESS
> >
> > The Fertilized Egg Business
> >
> > Zebediah was in the fertilized egg business. He had
> > several hundred young layers, called pullets, and ten
> > roosters, whose job was to fertilize the eggs.
> >
> > Zeb kept records, and any rooster that didn't perform
> > well went into the soup pot and was replaced. That took
> > an awful lot of Zeb's time; so, Zeb got a set of tiny
> > bells and attached them to his roosters. Each bell had a
> > different tone so that Zeb could tell, from a distance,
> > which rooster was performing.
> >
> > Now he could sit on the porch and fill out an efficiency
> > report simply by listening to the bells.
> >
> > Zeb's favorite rooster was old Brewster. A very fine
> > specimen he was, too.
> >
> > But on this particular morning, Zeb noticed that
> > Brewster's bell had not rung at all!
> >
> > Zeb went to investigate.
> >
> > The other roosters were chasing pullets, bells a-ringing!
> > The pullets, hearing the roosters coming, would run for
> > cover. BUT, to Zeb's amazement, Brewster had his bell in
> > his beak, so it couldn't ring. He'd sneak up on a pullet,
> > do his job and walk on to the next one.
> >
> > Zeb was so proud of Brewster that he entered him in the
> > county fair. Brewster was an overnight sensation!
> >
> > The judges not only awarded him the No Bell Piece Prize
> > but also the Pulletsurprise.
> >
> >
> >
>
> The information in this e-mail message, including any attachments, may
> contain confidential and privileged information that is protected by
> law. It is intended for the sole use of the recipient named above. If
> you are not the intended recipient or the agent responsible for
> delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that
> any unauthorized review, use, dissemination or copying is strictly
> prohibited. If you have received this electronic mail transmission in
> error please notify us immediately at bellis@bhset.org and delete any
> copies from your system.
>
>
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Cherry Blind Rivets explanation |
--> RV-List message posted by: linenwool@attbi.com
Hello listers!
I'm looking for some advise on ordering blind rivets from A/C Spruce. I see
the Cherry Max rivets that everyone talks about but also see commercial grade,
N, Q, and assortments of others. So how do I go about deciding which are used
for what applications? Are the Cherry Max the strongest of the group and if
so, are there ever any reasons for wanting a rivet of less strength? ie:
weight, overkill....etc? My immediate application is to put a blind rivet in
place of an AN470AD4-4 that I drilled out and now have a #19 hole...oops, but
I'm hoping to get enough info for future blind riveting applications as well.
Thanks,
-Will Allen
North Bend, Wa.
RV8 emp
Message 29
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|
| Subject: | Re: Oakdale, CA Aviation Discovery Day, May 3rd |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Vanartsdalen <svanarts@yahoo.com>
We hope there will be an 8 on the field anyway, right Rob? If the paint is dry
by then. Seriously though it should be fun. I'll be cooking pancakes! Do not
archive
Rob Miller <rmill2000@yahoo.com> wrote:--> RV-List message posted by: Rob Miller
Oakdale (O27) is holding its Aviation Discovery Day, on May 3rd. EAA
Chapter 90 is the host of the event an welcomes all RV builders/pilots to
attend. Admission is free. Come and join the other RVs (-4, -6, -8) on
the field. I hope we can have a big RV turnout. The Sacramento RVators
have also been invited. Lots to do and good things to eat.
Rob Miller
N262RM -8 "Bad Cat" 56 hours
http://search.yahoo.com
--
For God says, "At just the right time, I heard you. On the day of salvation, I
helped you." Indeed, God is ready to help you right now. Today is the day of
salvation.
2 Corinthians 6:2, New Living Translation
---------------------------------
Message 30
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| Subject: | EAA magazines and AOPA |
--> RV-List message posted by: Chris W <chrisw3@cox.net>
Ok I am starting to get more serious about this piloting and airplane
building and I thought I would join the EAA. They are asking on the
sign-up page if I want the experimenters magazine. Is this worth the
extra $20 or should I save it for things like the RV-ator (which I plan
on getting anyway)?
I am also planing on joining AOPA, anything I need to know about their
options?
--
Chris Woodhouse
3147 SW 127th St.
Oklahoma City, OK 73170
405-691-5206
chrisw@programmer.net
N35 20.492'
W97 34.342'
"They that can give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania
Message 31
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|
| Subject: | Late reply to plane new RV with apparently poor |
powe r.
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
The best way to build a RV or any other plane is to first become a airport
bum and make friends with everybody. Save your money. Make more
connections/friends. Save your money Look for used tools. Save your money,
Look for a good mid time engine. Go for a wood prop, basic VFR instruments.
Always ask your new airport friends/connections if they know of anyone
selling what you need. I have heard of a few people building RV's
specifically and 8 for less than 40K pretty easily. I bet if your real good
you could do it for about 30k.
At 01:04 PM 4/16/03 -0400, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: mstewart@qa.butler.com
>
>Hmmm. Sounds familiar.
>Happened on my first flight too on final and touchdown, engine quit.
>Only I just adjusted the arm so the full rich stop was leaner. My airborne
>flying seemed normal, although I was surely in information overload at the
>time and would not have noticed much beyond the wing coming off.
>
>http://www.mstewart.net/michael/rv/flying/firstflight/firstflight.htm
>Air Flow Per, Metering valve.
>
>Mike Stewart
>Do not archive
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dwpetrus@aol.com [mailto:Dwpetrus@aol.com]
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Late reply to plane new RV with apparently poor power.
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: Dwpetrus@aol.com
>
>Looks like fuel servo was set way too rich. We have sent it back to factory
>
>for repair and should have it back to us by tomorrow.
>
>Thanks,
>Wayne Petrus
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 32
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|
--> RV-List message posted by: "John Furey" <john@fureychrysler.com>
I have no idea what number I was but my unit was shipped Monday so I hope to have
it installed and be testing by mid next week. I'll report my results. If anybody
has any advice please speak up.
John Furey
RV6A O-320 70hrs
Message 33
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|
| Subject: | Re: EAA magazines and AOPA |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: Chris W <chrisw3@cox.net>
>
>Ok I am starting to get more serious about this piloting and airplane
>building and I thought I would join the EAA. They are asking on the
>sign-up page if I want the experimenters magazine. Is this worth the
>extra $20 or should I save it for things like the RV-ator (which I plan
>on getting anyway)?
>
>I am also planing on joining AOPA, anything I need to know about their
>options?
>
>--
>Chris Woodhouse
Chris,
I like the AOPA mag, and the organization as a whole. It does seem to me to
appeal to the more wealthy airplane owner, with reviews on some mega buck
machines. Still, they offer a load of neat services to it's members.
EAA is the backbone of the homebuilding movement, with a good magazine and
lots of technical help. The Experimenter is more aligned with ultralights,
but also offers some good safety stuff (from lister Cy Galley), that is good
for all kinds of flying. I get the Experimenter free as a Tech Counselor,
but would not pay extra for it if I wasn't.
Brian Denk
RV8 N94BD
Message 34
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|
| Subject: | Re: Alternative Engines |
--> RV-List message posted by: JRWillJR@aol.com
In a message dated 4/16/2003 10:02:20 AM Central Standard Time,
lors01@msn.com writes:
> "I don't share my girlfriend either. However I would have traded her to
> fly fighters in a second"
No, I kept the girl, turned down my opportunity for a commision, got married
and never looked back. We each have our path to follow. The military can be
an excellent life choice but there are are many others as well. Find your own
way. Do Not Archive.
JR
Message 35
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|
| Subject: | EAA magazines and AOPA |
tests=NO_REAL_NAME,ORIGINAL_MESSAGE,USER_IN_WHITELIST
autolearn=ham version=2.53
--> RV-List message posted by: mstewart@qa.butler.com
Chis,
As a tech counselor I receive it, but as an RV driver I have never found it
very helpful.
I read the following paper products related to flying:
Flying - love the pilot related flying articles. Keeps me in tune with
piloting issues and my favorite of my subscriptions.
EAA's Sport Aviation - My paper link to the homebuilding world. I would pay
for this even if it did not come with my membership.
Experimenter - Geared towards light planes and I usually scan this in 5-8
minutes, only occasionally actually reading an article. I would not pay for
it.
Private Pilot - I buy this in airports when traveling commercially and read
it enroute, but do not subscribe. It is very much like Flying, but not as
good.
AOPA - I really like what they do for pilots, and their weather web site
ranks in my top 3 places I go. But I feel the magazine is geared to folks
with more money to spend than me. I would not pay for it, but I do read it
cover to cover.
Mike Stewart
Do Not Archive
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris W [mailto:chrisw3@cox.net]
Subject: RV-List: EAA magazines and AOPA
--> RV-List message posted by: Chris W <chrisw3@cox.net>
Ok I am starting to get more serious about this piloting and airplane
building and I thought I would join the EAA. They are asking on the
sign-up page if I want the experimenters magazine. Is this worth the
extra $20 or should I save it for things like the RV-ator (which I plan
on getting anyway)?
I am also planing on joining AOPA, anything I need to know about their
options?
--
Chris Woodhouse
3147 SW 127th St.
Oklahoma City, OK 73170
405-691-5206
chrisw@programmer.net
N35 20.492'
W97 34.342'
"They that can give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: EAA magazines and AOPA |
--> RV-List message posted by: Michael McGee <jmpcrftr@teleport.com>
I'm sure Cy will chime in here,
I've received the Experimenter for years, it's a good magazine if you have
any interest in things smaller and slower than RVs. It also has an article
or two every month on building things that can apply to RVs. Other than
that it's just good reading and it's one of the few things left from "EAA"
that their attorneys haven't removed the word "experiment" from.
Mike McGee, RV-4 N996RV, O320-E2G, Hillsboro, OR
13B in gestation mode
At 13:03 2003-04-16 -0500, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Chris W <chrisw3@cox.net>
>
>Ok I am starting to get more serious about this piloting and airplane
>building and I thought I would join the EAA. They are asking on the
>sign-up page if I want the experimenters magazine. Is this worth the
>extra $20 or should I save it for things like the RV-ator (which I plan
>on getting anyway)?
>
>I am also planing on joining AOPA, anything I need to know about their
>options?
>
>--
>Chris Woodhouse
>3147 SW 127th St.
>Oklahoma City, OK 73170
>405-691-5206
>chrisw@programmer.net
>N35 20.492'
>W97 34.342'
>
>"They that can give up essential liberty
>to obtain a little temporary safety
>deserve neither liberty nor safety."
>-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania
Message 37
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|
| Subject: | canopy lock-slider RV-6 |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Salyer <jimsalyer@cfu.net>
Anyone know whats the best kind of lock, can be installed on RV-6 . Thanks
Message 38
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| Subject: | Late reply to plane new RV with apparently poor |
powe r.
--> RV-List message posted by: Michael McGee <jmpcrftr@teleport.com>
Gad-zooks!
Cross-thread-pollination!
(..those blasted hot keys..) P-)
RV-4 aka J-3-with-a-speed-kit
At 11:15 2003-04-16 -0700, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>
>The best way to build a RV or any other plane is to first become a airport
>bum and make friends with everybody. Save your money. Make more
>connections/friends. Save your money Look for used tools. Save your money,
>Look for a good mid time engine. Go for a wood prop, basic VFR instruments.
>Always ask your new airport friends/connections if they know of anyone
>selling what you need. I have heard of a few people building RV's
>specifically and 8 for less than 40K pretty easily. I bet if your real good
>you could do it for about 30k.
>
>
>At 01:04 PM 4/16/03 -0400, you wrote:
> >--> RV-List message posted by: mstewart@qa.butler.com
> >
> >Hmmm. Sounds familiar.
> >Happened on my first flight too on final and touchdown, engine quit.
> >Only I just adjusted the arm so the full rich stop was leaner. My airborne
> >flying seemed normal, although I was surely in information overload at the
> >time and would not have noticed much beyond the wing coming off.
> >
> >http://www.mstewart.net/michael/rv/flying/firstflight/firstflight.htm
> >Air Flow Per, Metering valve.
> >
> >Mike Stewart
> >Do not archive
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Dwpetrus@aol.com [mailto:Dwpetrus@aol.com]
> >To: rv-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Re: RV-List: Late reply to plane new RV with apparently poor power.
> >
> >--> RV-List message posted by: Dwpetrus@aol.com
> >
> >Looks like fuel servo was set way too rich. We have sent it back to factory
> >
> >for repair and should have it back to us by tomorrow.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Wayne Petrus
> >
> >
>
>
>Scott Bilinski
>Eng dept 305
>Phone (858) 657-2536
>Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 39
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| Subject: | Late reply to plane new RV with apparently poor power. |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Greg Young" <gyoung@cs-sol.com>
It is scary and serious. I believe my servo (AFP) being overly rich was a
major/contributing cause of my accident. Afterward a friend told me he had
seen black smoke on earlier startups but never told me about it. If you ever
see something questionable, please, PLEASE say something about it.
Regards,
Greg Young - Houston (DWH)
RV-6 N6GY ...project Phoenix
Navion N5221K - just an XXL RV-6A
> --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski
> --> <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>
> Actually, thats pretty scary. I wonder how close the engine
> was to quitting? How come nobody saw any black smoke or was
> it not rich enough to smoke?
>
>
> At 11:56 AM 4/16/03 -0400, you wrote:
> >--> RV-List message posted by: Dwpetrus@aol.com
> >
> >Looks like fuel servo was set way too rich. We have sent it back to
> >factory
> >for repair and should have it back to us by tomorrow.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Wayne Petrus
> >
> >
Message 40
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|
| Subject: | Late reply to plane new RV with apparently poor |
powe r.
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
OOOPPPS responded to the wrong message.
At 12:27 PM 4/16/03 -0700, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Michael McGee <jmpcrftr@teleport.com>
>
>Gad-zooks!
>Cross-thread-pollination!
>(..those blasted hot keys..) P-)
>RV-4 aka J-3-with-a-speed-kit
>
>At 11:15 2003-04-16 -0700, you wrote:
>>--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>>
>>The best way to build a RV or any other plane is to first become a airport
>>bum and make friends with everybody. Save your money. Make more
>>connections/friends. Save your money Look for used tools. Save your money,
>>Look for a good mid time engine. Go for a wood prop, basic VFR instruments.
>>Always ask your new airport friends/connections if they know of anyone
>>selling what you need. I have heard of a few people building RV's
>>specifically and 8 for less than 40K pretty easily. I bet if your real good
>>you could do it for about 30k.
>>
>>
>>At 01:04 PM 4/16/03 -0400, you wrote:
>> >--> RV-List message posted by: mstewart@qa.butler.com
>> >
>> >Hmmm. Sounds familiar.
>> >Happened on my first flight too on final and touchdown, engine quit.
>> >Only I just adjusted the arm so the full rich stop was leaner. My airborne
>> >flying seemed normal, although I was surely in information overload at the
>> >time and would not have noticed much beyond the wing coming off.
>> >
>> >http://www.mstewart.net/michael/rv/flying/firstflight/firstflight.htm
>> >Air Flow Per, Metering valve.
>> >
>> >Mike Stewart
>> >Do not archive
>> >
>> >
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Dwpetrus@aol.com [mailto:Dwpetrus@aol.com]
>> >To: rv-list@matronics.com
>> >Subject: Re: RV-List: Late reply to plane new RV with apparently poor
power.
>> >
>> >--> RV-List message posted by: Dwpetrus@aol.com
>> >
>> >Looks like fuel servo was set way too rich. We have sent it back to
factory
>> >
>> >for repair and should have it back to us by tomorrow.
>> >
>> >Thanks,
>> >Wayne Petrus
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>Scott Bilinski
>>Eng dept 305
>>Phone (858) 657-2536
>>Pager (858) 502-5190
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 41
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| Subject: | EAA magazines and AOPA |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Greg Young" <gyoung@cs-sol.com>
The Experimenter is oriented to ultralights. I signed up for it before I
knew what it was and subsequently have dropped it. I was hoping it would
fill the void that Sport Aviation left by no longer covering scratch and
plans building techniques. It doesn't IMHO. YMMV.
Greg Young
> --> RV-List message posted by: Chris W <chrisw3@cox.net>
>
> Ok I am starting to get more serious about this piloting and
> airplane building and I thought I would join the EAA. They
> are asking on the sign-up page if I want the experimenters
> magazine. Is this worth the extra $20 or should I save it
> for things like the RV-ator (which I plan on getting anyway)?
>
> I am also planing on joining AOPA, anything I need to know
> about their options?
>
>
Message 42
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|
| Subject: | Re: Alternative Engines |
--> RV-List message posted by: JNice51355@aol.com
In a message dated 4/16/03 4:43:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
Brock.Vaughn@hanscom.af.mil writes:
> Don't kid yourself on an RV-8. They cost $60-100K and I am sure that is
> money better spent on getting your ratings and going to school.
>
>
Guess I come from different stock than Captain Brock. It's not my wish to
slam the military(especially in lieu of recent events), but it is good to
keep in mind that there are many ways to skin a cat, and none of them are
impossible. I've met "all kinds" of pilots, some pro and some not, some
ex-military and some not. "Some" think they own the skies, and would like
all of us "pleasure seekers" to get out of their space.
Then, I know a 747 Captain that flies a Luscomb and is building an RV.
Joining the ROTC isn't necessarily a bad idea, and it has worked for some.
One thing to remember, Captain Brock. There are Pilots, and there are
Aviators. I can usually tell the difference. Hope you are the latter of the
two. I know several folks that had "no military" and worked their way up to
the "majors", and some of them have even a few "incidents" in their record.
It all starts with a "dream" and turns into a "plan". As for my
flying(recreational), it all began a long time ago when someone had enough
interest in my future to give me an airplane ride.
Good Day
do not archive
Message 43
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Eustace Bowhay" <ebowhay@jetstream.net>
Don, and excellent post but as Doug mentions carb icing (venturi icing) causes
the manifold pressure to drop and because of this is gives the pilot the earliest
and most accurate indication of icing.
Eustace Bowhay Blind Bay, B.C.
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: EAA magazines and AOPA |
--> RV-List message posted by: "John Starn" <jhstarn@earthlink.net>
Do Not Archive. I belong to both AOPA (1964) and EAA (1996) and the local
EAA 768 Chapter. Was "building" partner with Gummibear on his HRII. Would
spend $ on AOPA, EAA and join a local chapter. (768 dues at $12.00 a year,
your cost may vary) BUT I would get the RVator and buy the 21 years of
RVator, lots of praticial RV information and will save you lots of
"re-inventing wheel" time. KABONG
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris W" <chrisw3@cox.net>
Subject: RV-List: EAA magazines and AOPA
> --> RV-List message posted by: Chris W <chrisw3@cox.net>
>
> Ok I am starting to get more serious about this piloting and airplane
> building and I thought I would join the EAA. They are asking on the
> sign-up page if I want the experimenters magazine. Is this worth the
> extra $20 or should I save it for things like the RV-ator (which I plan
> on getting anyway)?
>
> I am also planing on joining AOPA, anything I need to know about their
> options?
>
> --
> Chris Woodhouse
> 3147 SW 127th St.
> Oklahoma City, OK 73170
> 405-691-5206
> chrisw@programmer.net
> N35 20.492'
> W97 34.342'
>
> "They that can give up essential liberty
> to obtain a little temporary safety
> deserve neither liberty nor safety."
> -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania
>
>
Message 45
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|
| Subject: | Late reply to plane new RV with apparently poor |
power.
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
I have not even started my engine yet, but I have read the manual for AFP.
In it, it tells you how to set the mixture and what kind of RPM drop you
should expect. Did the people who had problems add the system themselves or
get it pre installed from the engine builder and (hopefully) adjust
correctly by the builder.
At 03:08 PM 4/16/03 -0500, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Greg Young" <gyoung@cs-sol.com>
>
>It is scary and serious. I believe my servo (AFP) being overly rich was a
>major/contributing cause of my accident. Afterward a friend told me he had
>seen black smoke on earlier startups but never told me about it. If you ever
>see something questionable, please, PLEASE say something about it.
>
>Regards,
>Greg Young - Houston (DWH)
>RV-6 N6GY ...project Phoenix
>Navion N5221K - just an XXL RV-6A
>
>> --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski
>> --> <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>>
>> Actually, thats pretty scary. I wonder how close the engine
>> was to quitting? How come nobody saw any black smoke or was
>> it not rich enough to smoke?
>>
>>
>> At 11:56 AM 4/16/03 -0400, you wrote:
>> >--> RV-List message posted by: Dwpetrus@aol.com
>> >
>> >Looks like fuel servo was set way too rich. We have sent it back to
>> >factory
>> >for repair and should have it back to us by tomorrow.
>> >
>> >Thanks,
>> >Wayne Petrus
>> >
>> >
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 46
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|
| Subject: | was - Late reply to plane, now - who you know helps |
--> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" <rv_8pilot@hotmail.com>
big second on this tip. It's definitely not what you know but who you know.
I built my 160-hp -8 for about $37g's with a new CS prop & gov, TC gyro
only, all radios and instrument new, a "lightly" overhauled O-320 and my
paint.
Bryan Jones -8
Pearland, Texas
do not archive
>The best way to build a RV or any other plane is to first become a airport
>bum and make friends with everybody. Save your money. Make more
>connections/friends. Save your money Look for used tools. Save your money,
>Look for a good mid time engine. Go for a wood prop, basic VFR instruments.
>Always ask your new airport friends/connections if they know of anyone
>selling what you need. I have heard of a few people building RV's
>specifically and 8 for less than 40K pretty easily. I bet if your real good
>you could do it for about 30k.
Message 47
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|
| Subject: | EAA magazines and AOPA |
--> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes <kempthornes@earthlink.net>
Mike Stewart wrote:
>AOPA - I really like what they do for pilots, and their weather web site
>ranks in my top 3 places I go. But I feel the magazine is geared to folks
>with more money to spend than me. I would not pay for it, but I do read it
>cover to cover.
I thought that our AOPA membership dues included the magazine? Surely
you don't mean you like what the AOPA does for us but you aren't a member
and you don't contribute anything???
K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne
RV6-a N7HK flying!
PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA)
Message 48
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|
| Subject: | Late reply to plane new RV with apparently poor power. |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@usjet.net>
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Dwpetrus@aol.com
>
> Looks like fuel servo was set way too rich. We have sent it
> back to factory
> for repair and should have it back to us by tomorrow.
>
> Thanks,
> Wayne Petrus
OK, this is really important stuff. What observations lead to this
conclusion? Please let the group know. Does anyone know how much
additional fuel is needed to drop the power significantly, for example,
only allowing 500fpm? No wive's tail please, precision is important in
these type of observations. Being wrong can be lethal.
Several posts today didn't make sense - e.g., there is no high speed
mixture adjustment (field accomplished) on a AFP servo as was discussed,
only idle mixture. Also, most planes will smoke a bit of black smoke on
startup, depending on prime situation. Additionally, when at full power
full rich, most planes will leave a visible trail of smoke that can be
seen if the plane is flying almost directly away. Keep in mind that at
full rich, full throttle these engines are eating about 25 - 30% more
gas than if they were set for best power at same throttle and prop
setting (this excess fuel controls flame propogation and adds cooling).
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
RV6-A N66AP 291 hours
www.rvforum.org
www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson
Message 49
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|
--> RV-List message posted by: "Evan and Megan Johnson" <evmeg@snowcrest.net>
Any body out there have Eustace's phone number? I understand he has a neat mounting
flange for the Vision Microsystems fuel level sending unit. I need a pair.
Thanks in advance...Evan Johnson
Message 50
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| Subject: | EAA magazines and AOPA |
USER_IN_WHITELIST
autolearn=ham version=2.53
--> RV-List message posted by: mstewart@qa.butler.com
No, I did not mean that. I do pay my membership to AOPA. Not for the mag.,
but for all they do for aviation as a whole.
And I read the mag cover to cover but would not pay for it, meaning the mag.
alone if they chose to charge me for it seperately.
Mike Stewart
Do Not Archive
-----Original Message-----
From: kempthornes [mailto:kempthornes@earthlink.net]
Subject: RE: RV-List: EAA magazines and AOPA
--> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes <kempthornes@earthlink.net>
Mike Stewart wrote:
>AOPA - I really like what they do for pilots, and their weather web site
>ranks in my top 3 places I go. But I feel the magazine is geared to folks
>with more money to spend than me. I would not pay for it, but I do read it
>cover to cover.
I thought that our AOPA membership dues included the magazine? Surely
you don't mean you like what the AOPA does for us but you aren't a member
and you don't contribute anything???
K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne
RV6-a N7HK flying!
PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA)
Message 51
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| Subject: | Re: EAA magazines and AOPA |
--> RV-List message posted by: Richard Scott <rscott@cascadeaccess.com>
I tried Experimenter for one year & dropped it. They don't know what kind
of magazine they are publishing: An ultralight magazine? A homebuilder's
magazine? Something else? There is no clear audience. Except for the
ultralight articles, the others should be published in other EAA
publications, such as Sport Aviation.
Richard Scott
At 11:03 AM 4/16/03, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Chris W <chrisw3@cox.net>
>
>Ok I am starting to get more serious about this piloting and airplane
>building and I thought I would join the EAA. They are asking on the
>sign-up page if I want the experimenters magazine. Is this worth the
>extra $20 or should I save it for things like the RV-ator (which I plan
>on getting anyway)?
>
>I am also planing on joining AOPA, anything I need to know about their
>options?
>
>--
>Chris Woodhouse
>3147 SW 127th St.
>Oklahoma City, OK 73170
>405-691-5206
>chrisw@programmer.net
>N35 20.492'
>W97 34.342'
Message 52
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|
| Subject: | Late reply to plane new RV with apparently poor power. |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@usjet.net>
> I have not even started my engine yet, but I have read the
> manual for AFP. In it, it tells you how to set the mixture
> and what kind of RPM drop you should expect. Did the people
> who had problems add the system themselves or get it pre
> installed from the engine builder and (hopefully) adjust
> correctly by the builder.
>
>
This is the procedure for setting idle mixture!!!! It will not affect
operations above something like 1/4 throttle. Presumably, the plane
with climb problems wasn't at 1/4 throttle (or that would explain a
lot). Maximum fuel flows at higher throttle settings is determined by
components in the guts of the system, and is not field adjustable on the
AFP system. I suspect this is the same on Bendix.
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
RV6-A N66AP 291 hours
www.rvforum.org
www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson
Message 53
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|
| Subject: | Cherry Blind Rivets explanation |
--> RV-List message posted by: "George McNutt" <gmcnutt@intergate.ca>
--> RV-List message posted by: linenwool@attbi.com
Hello listers!
I'm looking for some advise on ordering blind rivets from A/C Spruce. I see
the Cherry Max rivets that everyone talks about but also see commercial
grade,
N, Q, and assortments of others. So how do I go about deciding which are
used
for what applications? Are the Cherry Max the strongest of the group and if
so, are there ever any reasons for wanting a rivet of less strength? ie:
weight, overkill....etc? My immediate application is to put a blind rivet in
place of an AN470AD4-4 that I drilled out and now have a #19 hole...oops,
but
I'm hoping to get enough info for future blind riveting applications as
well.
Thanks,
-Will Allen
North Bend, Wa.
RV8 emp
Hi Will
You can probably get away without blind rivets. I am not sure how much
oversize a # 19 hole is but you can probably take a longer AN470AD4 and
squeeze it down a bit with your rivet squeezer. This will fatten it up so it
fits the oversize hole. Then install and drive it normally.
There should be more on this in the archives.
George McNutt
Langley, B.C.
6A - 132 hrs, IFR ride today in a aircraft that I built myself, great
feeling!
Message 54
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| Subject: | Re: new kid here |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Cimino" <jcimino@echoes.net>
Jeff,
What part of Jersey are you from. I have a flying RV-8 in NE PA.
Jim
James Cimino
RV-8 SN 80039
80+ Hours
570-842-4057
http://www.geocities.com/jcimino.geo/
----- Original Message -----
From: "j tramontano" <blueirocrt@hotmail.com>
Subject: RV-List: new kid here
> --> RV-List message posted by: "j tramontano" <blueirocrt@hotmail.com>
>
>
> Hi,
> My name is Jeff and I am a future RV builder from NJ. I am a commercial
> rated pilot building time and experience toward a professional aviation
> career while I take distance-learning courses from Embry Riddle. I am
> already chatting on the 8/8A list and am coming here for the broad
spectrum.
> My plans call for an RV-8 QB with some sort of alternative engine as a
> major possibility. As I am 22 years old, I am going to build a budget fun
> flyer as money allows and might be looking for a partner. To be honest the
> plane will prob be like another girlfriend and I dont share my girlfriend
> so thats prob not an option I would like. I am pretty set on the 8 with
its
> great fighter looks but like I said, its a budget project so if a cheaper
> "lost interest" QB project comes along I would consider a 6 or 7. Right
now
> I am gathering information on the basics but am focusing on the engine
> choice, as its the most expensive single part on the a/c. Right now I am
on
> the rotary turbo kick as I have been racing turbo cars for a few years
now.
> Sun n Fun sold me on the RV series and I am planning on taking the plunge
> this summer.
>
>
> Jeff
>
>
Message 55
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| Subject: | corrosion protection |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Joshua Siler" <joshs@ninatek.com>
Hi All,
I've been drilling and deburring parts all the way to the rudder,
and last week I finally managed to get my first group of empennage parts
primed and ready to go. I'm looking forward to my first couple rivets,
however looking over my primer job it is not the best. It is the first time
I've used this cheapo touch up gun, so the results were a little
inconsistent - there are a few places where the primer coat is noticeable
thin. I'm sure I'll do a better job as I get more used the gun, however I'm
wondering whether or not I should go over all these parts again with a
second coat. In real terms, what are the corrosion characteristics of this
alloy? Is a heavy, consistent coat of primer required to get most of the
protection? I know some of you aren't priming much, but for those that are -
how much time is the quality of the primer coat worth? Any insight would be
greatly appreciated.
Regards,
Josh Siler
Portland, OR RV-7A emp
Message 56
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| Subject: | FlyIn Breakfast @ KHVC |
--> RV-List message posted by: Bobby Hester <bhester@hopkinsville.net>
We are having a FlyIn Breakfast
Hopkinsville - Christian County Airport (KHVC)
South western Kentucky about 65 miles nw of Nashville, TN
Saturday April 26, 7:30am - 11:00am
FlyIn, eat breakfast, and checkout my RV7A project :-)
If you have any extra time, I sure would like to get a ride!
--
Surfing the Web from Hopkinsville, KY
Visit my web site at: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite/
RV7A Slowbuild wings-QB Fuse :-)
Message 57
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| Subject: | Re: corrosion protection |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell@telus.net>
Hi Josh,
First off, what type of primer are you using? If you are using a self
etching primer leave things as they are. Have you dulled the shine of the
Alclad with some red scotch brite? A thin coat is all that is required. Feel
the weight of the can of paint and be aware that most of that weight will
fly with you Heavy anything should almost always be avoided in aircraft. I
presume from your writing that you have no bare metal areas showing. If you
do go back over them only enough to thinly cover them.
If you are using a two part epoxy?: The generally accepted practice is to
scoured and etch the areas to be painted with a product such as Alumiprep
(15% phosphoric acid and water) rinse dry and Alodine rinse dry and prime
None of the above is etched (pun intended) in stone. Look under Primer in
the archives, read everything you find there, while doing so remember to
stop to eat and sleep a few times or you might die. (;-)!
Get directly in touch with the manufacturer / supplier of the product/s you
are using, explain exactly what you are doing and follow their instructions.
Much quicker than the archives and a good chance of getting the right info
without having an archives confusion hangover that will last waaaay too
long.
Jim in Kelowna
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joshua Siler" <joshs@ninatek.com>
Subject: RV-List: corrosion protection
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Joshua Siler" <joshs@ninatek.com>
>
> Hi All,
> I've been drilling and deburring parts all the way to the rudder,
> and last week I finally managed to get my first group of empennage parts
> primed and ready to go. I'm looking forward to my first couple rivets,
> however looking over my primer job it is not the best. It is the first
time
> I've used this cheapo touch up gun, so the results were a little
> inconsistent - there are a few places where the primer coat is noticeable
> thin. I'm sure I'll do a better job as I get more used the gun, however
I'm
> wondering whether or not I should go over all these parts again with a
> second coat. In real terms, what are the corrosion characteristics of this
> alloy? Is a heavy, consistent coat of primer required to get most of the
> protection? I know some of you aren't priming much, but for those that
are -
> how much time is the quality of the primer coat worth? Any insight would
be
> greatly appreciated.
>
> Regards,
> Josh Siler
> Portland, OR RV-7A emp
>
>
Message 58
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| Subject: | corrosion protection |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Rodney Woodard" <rodney.woodard@attbi.com>
I'm sorry, I don't know how to sugar coat this, but the statement I've
quoted below is ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT.
When you feel the weight of the can, you are feeling the can itself--not
insubstantial because it's tin and relatively thick--, the primer or
paint or whatever, and a BUNCH of solvent.
It is absolutely not accurate to say that most of the weight of any
paint in a can will wind up on the object to be painted. In fact, the
more accurate statement falls waaay at the other end of the spectrum.
VERY LITTLE of the weight of paint in a can will "fly around with you"
when all's said and done.
Paint or primer is suspended in a solvent that allows the paint to be
sprayed. When the paint "dries," what's really happening is that the
solvent is evaporating. Most of a can of paint is solvent, ergo most of
the weight of what's in the can will EVAPORATE.
What flies around with you is the weight of the can in your hand MINUS
the actual weight of the empty can, MINUS the weight of the solvent,
MINUS all the spray that comes out of the nozzle, but doesn't make it to
the surface being painted.
There are many good arguments on both sides of the primer debate, but
weight isn't one of them.
Best regards,
Rod Woodard
Northern Colorado
RV-3 #11339 in progress
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell@telus.net>
>
> Hi Josh,
>
> ***STUFF SNIPPED*** Feel the weight
> of the can of paint and be aware that most of that weight
> will fly with you ***MORE STUFF SNIPPED***
> Jim in Kelowna
Message 59
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| Subject: | Re: Eustace Bowhay |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Eustace Bowhay" <ebowhay@jetstream.net>
I had a machine shop make up these flanges and as they were computer
generated the big cost was in making up the program for the milling machine.
I had them make some extras and gave them to Lance Turk at VMS thinking that
it would make the probe installation alot easier and also help defray my
initial cost.
They rivet into the lower rear corner of the tank and the threaded portion
is set at the correct angle for the probe, set about a 1/4 in. below the top
and 1/2 in. from the end of the tank It has been awhile since I talked to
Lance and he has not contacted me so I assume he still has all of them. They
are made for the RV6-6A tanks
Give him a call at 306 714 8203 or call me at 250 675 4428, in any case they
are available.
Eustace Bowhay Blind Bay, B.C.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan and Megan Johnson" <evmeg@snowcrest.net>
Subject: RV-List: Eustace Bowhay
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Evan and Megan Johnson"
<evmeg@snowcrest.net>
>
> Any body out there have Eustace's phone number? I understand he has a neat
mounting flange for the Vision Microsystems fuel level sending unit. I need
a pair.
>
> Thanks in advance...Evan Johnson
>
>
Message 60
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| Subject: | WTB RV8 this summer |
--> RV-List message posted by: "j tramontano" <blueirocrt@hotmail.com>
I will be looking for an RV-8 after I finish and sell my current vechicle
project. I saw in the archives I missed a couple of half completed deals and
was wondering if any others were out there. I am looking for something
around the quickbuild stage. Firewall forwad dosent matter as I am going
through alternative options.
Jeff
Message 61
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| Subject: | Looking for Headset-Off Topic |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Glenn Brasch" <gbrasch@earthlink.net>
My 11 year old flying "partner" really wants his own set of headsets, but I really
don't want to spend a lot of money until he gets older. If anyone has something
inexpensive that would work for a child that they would like to sell, please
contact me off list. And sorry for the off topic. DO NOT ARCHIVE Glenn
in Arizona gbrasch@earthlink.net
Message 62
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--> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North <wnorth@sdccd.cc.ca.us>
Hey Gary,
great comparison data on aircraft. I think the props being used play a major
factor in this. Particularly the FPs since they vary so greatly. Most of the
CS are the same or close to it. Also the wing loading (IE current W&B) must
play a big factor in MPG tests.
My 6 180fp Sensenich FM 85" pitch slowly goes by a friends 4 160 CS both at
2700/28", straight an level. But that darned 4 goes up like a hummingbird on
steroids. We really haven't checked on fuel burn, but I would guess the
narrower and lighter 4 gets a little better mpg at equal airspeeds and
payload.
do not archive
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