---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 04/20/03: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:06 AM - Malvern PA area (Noel Strong) 2. 09:12 AM - Re: Cell Phone adaptor (Dave Bristol) 3. 09:23 AM - Nylok True Blue spray-on patch (Dan Checkoway) 4. 11:20 AM - Re: Vernatherm (Vanremog@aol.com) 5. 11:44 AM - Re:Late reply to plane new RV with apparently poor power. (Jerry2DT@aol.com) 6. 12:16 PM - Re: Vernatherm (Kyle Boatright) 7. 12:34 PM - Re: Vernatherm (JNice51355@aol.com) 8. 01:56 PM - Whats wrong with this picture? (Tom Gummo) 9. 02:03 PM - Re: Nylok True Blue spray-on patch (Evan and Megan Johnson) 10. 03:01 PM - Re: Vacum test (Craig Warner) 11. 03:09 PM - Re: VOR prognosis? (Jeff Orear) 12. 07:21 PM - Re: Re:Late reply to plane new RV with apparently (Michael McGee) 13. 07:36 PM - Re: Re:Late reply to plane new RV with apparently poor (Jerry Springer) 14. 09:44 PM - Re: Re:Late reply to plane new RV with apparently (Michael McGee) 15. 09:59 PM - Re: Re:Late reply to plane new RV with apparently poor (Jerry Springer) 16. 10:12 PM - Fuel Senders () 17. 10:36 PM - Re: Re:Late reply to plane new RV with apparently (Michael McGee) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:06:15 AM PST US From: "Noel Strong" Subject: RV-List: Malvern PA area --> RV-List message posted by: "Noel Strong" An upcoming move to the Malvern Pa area has delayed the purchase of my RV 8 kit. I am interested in contacting any RV 8 builders in the area. Thanks, Noel Strong nstrong01@msn.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:12:08 AM PST US From: Dave Bristol Subject: Re: RV-List: Cell Phone adaptor --> RV-List message posted by: Dave Bristol Hi Wheeler, This is an interesting circuit since it works backwards from what you would first expect . The only problem that I see is that the aircraft mike requires a DC voltage to work and that means that you'll have about 5 or 6 volts dc on the input to the cellphone - not too cool - I'd like to see a series cap in that line. Dave RV6, So Cal Wheeler North wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North > > Well, > > So Cal was downright bayutiful today, flew around for awhile, went to > Corona, on the downwind 45 called ACS for a pick up ride and the little cell > phone adaptor worked like a champ. I've used it several times now and its > been just fine, nice and loud, or at least as loud as I want it. > > I have the RST audio panel/intercom and it is a little low in volume, but is > just fine with lightspeed ANRs. The cell beeps are very loud and the > conversation is equal to any person on the intercom. > > As someone posted this takes advantage of the intercom's amplification. It > doesn't work with the intercom turned off. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:23:38 AM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: RV-List: Nylok True Blue spray-on patch --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" Does anybody know where you can get Nylok True Blue spray-on patch, or something equivalent? http://www.nylok.com/blue.html I'm looking for something like this to apply to the #6 screws holding my rear window down to the roll bar (tip-up canopy) so they don't come loose (don't even say Loct...). I'm definitely open to other suggestions. )_( Dan RV-7 N714D (finish) http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:20:03 AM PST US From: Vanremog@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Vernatherm --> RV-List message posted by: Vanremog@aol.com In a message dated 4/19/2003 8:47:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, JNice51355@aol.com writes: > Second question. A friend felt my oil filter and oil cooler after flight > because he said it seems I am not getting the oil hot enough. He seems to > think it is a bad vernatherm valve. Can this be proven out? OR Should I > just replace the vernatherm and see what happens? Jim- Do you have a door on your cooler to completely shut off all cooling air in flight? If you don't, then even the small (9 row) cooler will overcool at current WA temperatures. This time of year in CA I have my oil cooler door completely closed to maintain oil temp above 170 deg F in flight. If your oil temperature probe is in the normal position, the oil cooler is completely blocked off and your oil is still not hot enough (>180 deg F) in flight, then consider this. The vernatherm (please forgive the obvious comparisons to male sexual response) starts out retracted and stays retracted until its activation temperature is reached. Oil bypasses the cooler circuit. If the critical temperature is never reached then it just stays retracted, but oil continues to flow thru the filter and to the engine. In this case the filter would be warm and the oil cooler, well...cooler. If the vernatherm is broken in the retracted condition, this condition would persist. If on the other hand, the vernatherm is broken in the extended position (I wish) the oil would always be diverted to go thru the cooler and if cooling air continued thru the cooler then you may not get the oil warm enough until summer. If you suspect the vernatherm is defective, pull it out and examine it. You will see if it is retracted or extended. If extended at room temp it is broken, if retracted then it may be okay. You can test it for activation temperature by warming in a pan of oil on a hot plate (do this outside or your wife will dope slap you). It should extend at some temperature around 170 (??) deg F IIRC. If not, it is bogus. -GV (RV-6A N1GV 596hrs) ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:44:50 AM PST US From: Jerry2DT@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Re:Late reply to plane new RV with apparently poor power. --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry2DT@aol.com Guys... Sorry for another late reply, but... The original poster stated 2700 prop rpm and 26" man pressure. Did we ever find out if it was a CS or FP prop? Still hard to believe he could achieve these readings in normal flight configuration WITHOUT producing rated power. One poster gave the extreme example of a vne dive with idle cutoff and flat pitch, WOT, but since he wasn't doing that, why wouldn't this ship climb? If one turns any reasonably pitched prop at 2700 rpm, it's got to produce either a decent climb rate or high speed, doesn't it? Someone else mentioned too rich a mixture, but darn it, the prop was STILL turning 2700, so what's the problem? The only thing that comes to my mind is way excessive drag, but he wasn't trying to climb with an extra 500 lbs and flaps down, was he? :) There is a troubling mystery here, and I for one, would really like to know the answer when it comes... Jerry Cochran ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:16:24 PM PST US From: "Kyle Boatright" Subject: Re: RV-List: Vernatherm --> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright" Another test is to boil it in water. It should be fully open by ~180 degrees. If it doesn't change length well before the water boils, you've got a problem. KB ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: RV-List: Vernatherm > --> RV-List message posted by: Vanremog@aol.com > > In a message dated 4/19/2003 8:47:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > JNice51355@aol.com writes: > > > Second question. A friend felt my oil filter and oil cooler after flight > > because he said it seems I am not getting the oil hot enough. He seems to > > think it is a bad vernatherm valve. Can this be proven out? OR Should I > > just replace the vernatherm and see what happens? > > Jim- > > Do you have a door on your cooler to completely shut off all cooling air in > flight? If you don't, then even the small (9 row) cooler will overcool at > current WA temperatures. This time of year in CA I have my oil cooler door > completely closed to maintain oil temp above 170 deg F in flight. If your > oil temperature probe is in the normal position, the oil cooler is completely > blocked off and your oil is still not hot enough (>180 deg F) in flight, then > consider this. > > The vernatherm (please forgive the obvious comparisons to male sexual > response) starts out retracted and stays retracted until its activation > temperature is reached. Oil bypasses the cooler circuit. If the critical > temperature is never reached then it just stays retracted, but oil continues > to flow thru the filter and to the engine. In this case the filter would be > warm and the oil cooler, well...cooler. > > If the vernatherm is broken in the retracted condition, this condition would > persist. If on the other hand, the vernatherm is broken in the extended > position (I wish) the oil would always be diverted to go thru the cooler and > if cooling air continued thru the cooler then you may not get the oil warm > enough until summer. > > If you suspect the vernatherm is defective, pull it out and examine it. You > will see if it is retracted or extended. If extended at room temp it is > broken, if retracted then it may be okay. You can test it for activation > temperature by warming in a pan of oil on a hot plate (do this outside or > your wife will dope slap you). It should extend at some temperature around > 170 (??) deg F IIRC. If not, it is bogus. > > -GV (RV-6A N1GV 596hrs) > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:34:07 PM PST US From: JNice51355@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Vernatherm --> RV-List message posted by: JNice51355@aol.com In a message dated 4/20/03 11:20:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Vanremog@aol.com writes: > Do you have a door on your cooler to completely shut off all cooling air in > flight? Gary No door on this.(it's a, pardon my French, Cherokee) But, maybe I'd best buy the winterization plate that is made to mount on this oil cooler. I've blocked it off before with duct tape and it did bring that oil temp up some. Also, the gauge may not be "entirely" accurate, since it is, after all, 36 years old. I shall try a candy thermometer first and see how accurate it is, then I shall cover the cooler and recheck it after flight. As long as I do not forget to remove this item later in the season, it should do the trick. My only problem is probably listening to my friend Andy's observation, although I know it might be good to have that temp up a bit higher to help get rid of moisture in the oil. If necessary, I will pull and check the vernatherm like you explained. But, I have a mean streak, and think I'll boil it in oil "in the kitchen" just to see if she tries to dope slap me. Me thinks not. Thanks Happy Easter Jim Nice p.s. Going to KOSH this year??? ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:56:40 PM PST US From: "Tom Gummo" Subject: RV-List: Whats wrong with this picture? --> RV-List message posted by: "Tom Gummo" The sun is shining. The temperature is in the middle 70s. The wind calm (it normally blows in the afternoon here). I am at the airport - NO. ;-( I am at home with a house full of family and friends for Easter dinner. Hope some of you are having a nice Holiday with your RV-Rockets. Tom Gummo Apple Valley, CA ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:03:37 PM PST US From: "Evan and Megan Johnson" Subject: Re: RV-List: Nylok True Blue spray-on patch --> RV-List message posted by: "Evan and Megan Johnson" You could use a little smudge of proseal on the threads....I cant say how it affects the canopy but I know it is often used on the front windshield to caulk the lower windshield to the forward fuse so I would guess it's not too harsh. Once it hardens up it is tough but not impossible to remove the screws. Evan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: RV-List: Nylok True Blue spray-on patch > --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > > Does anybody know where you can get Nylok True Blue spray-on patch, or > something equivalent? > > http://www.nylok.com/blue.html > > I'm looking for something like this to apply to the #6 screws holding my > rear window down to the roll bar (tip-up canopy) so they don't come loose > (don't even say Loct...). I'm definitely open to other suggestions. > > )_( Dan > RV-7 N714D (finish) > http://www.rvproject.com > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:01:20 PM PST US From: "Craig Warner" Subject: Re: RV-List: Vacum test --> RV-List message posted by: "Craig Warner" You can buy a hand held vacuum pump called "Mity Vac" at a local auto store. It will hook up to your lines and verify there are no leaks. Craig Warner RV6A still build'n ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bert Forero" Subject: RV-List: Vacum test > --> RV-List message posted by: "Bert Forero" > > Hi: > > I put his e-mail but received notice, failure...so here > I go again: > > Before I close the top foward skin, I would like to > test the static system. > > I know there is Vacum test tool, I do not know the > exact name) I checked J.C Whitney, thinking the would > carry this item, I did not see it. Check Spruce, I did > not see it.. > > Can some one tell me where I can find such gauge,, > > or any ideas on this? > > Thanks > > Bert > > rv6a > Electrical finished.. > > Do Not Archive > > Sign up for Internet Service under $10 dollars a month, at http://isp.BlueLight.com > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:09:31 PM PST US From: "Jeff Orear" Subject: Re: RV-List: VOR prognosis? --> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Orear" Jim: This is my main concern regarding installing a NAV radio. I do not plan to fly/equip my 6A for IFR, so that is not an issue. From what I have heard from the many informative responses (thanks guys), it sounds like the VOR system will be around for a bit yet. Regards, Jeff Orear RV6A panel stuff Peshtigo, WI ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: RV-List: VOR prognosis? > --> RV-List message posted by: LeastDrag93066@aol.com > > Hi All, > > VOR isn't just for IFR flying. > > If you want to talk to Flight Following, or Flight Watch, they would like to > transmit to you on the NAV frequencies (so their transmitter is near you). > As I found out in Texas (no NAV receiver), the center can get pretty far > away. > > Experiences may vary. > > Jim Ayers > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:21:46 PM PST US From: Michael McGee Subject: Re: RV-List: Re:Late reply to plane new RV with apparently poor power. --> RV-List message posted by: Michael McGee Jerry- It was running super rich due to a fuel injection part not being set up properly from the factory. An engine can show these numbers (2700/26") and barely be producing power. Mike Mike McGee, RV-4 N996RV, O320-E2G, Hillsboro, OR 13B in gestation mode At 14:43 2003-04-20 -0400, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry2DT@aol.com > >Guys... > >Sorry for another late reply, but... The original poster stated 2700 prop rpm >and 26" man pressure. Did we ever find out if it was a CS or FP prop? Still >hard to believe he could achieve these readings in normal flight >configuration WITHOUT producing rated power. One poster gave the extreme >example of a vne dive with idle cutoff and flat pitch, WOT, but since he >wasn't doing that, why wouldn't this ship climb? > >If one turns any reasonably pitched prop at 2700 rpm, it's got to produce >either a decent climb rate or high speed, doesn't it? Someone else mentioned >too rich a mixture, but darn it, the prop was STILL turning 2700, so what's >the problem? The only thing that comes to my mind is way excessive drag, but >he wasn't trying to climb with an extra 500 lbs and flaps down, was he? :) >There is a troubling mystery here, and I for one, would really like to know >the answer when it comes... > >Jerry Cochran ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:36:37 PM PST US From: Jerry Springer Subject: Re: RV-List: Re:Late reply to plane new RV with apparently poor power. --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer Ok as long as I have been in aviation I don't understand how that can be Michael. Most CS props have stops at low pitch so it is not like the prop is going to flatten out so much that it well not produce any thrust. How can it be that a prop turning 2700 rpm well not produce any climb performance? 2700/26 show me an engine that is producing lots of climb power. Jerry do not archive -------------------------- Michael McGee wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: Michael McGee > > Jerry- > It was running super rich due to a fuel injection part not being set up > properly from the factory. An engine can show these numbers (2700/26") and > barely be producing power. > Mike > Mike McGee, RV-4 N996RV, O320-E2G, Hillsboro, OR > 13B in gestation mode > > At 14:43 2003-04-20 -0400, you wrote: > >>--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry2DT@aol.com >> >>Guys... >> >>Sorry for another late reply, but... The original poster stated 2700 prop rpm >>and 26" man pressure. Did we ever find out if it was a CS or FP prop? Still >>hard to believe he could achieve these readings in normal flight >>configuration WITHOUT producing rated power. One poster gave the extreme >>example of a vne dive with idle cutoff and flat pitch, WOT, but since he >>wasn't doing that, why wouldn't this ship climb? >> >>If one turns any reasonably pitched prop at 2700 rpm, it's got to produce >>either a decent climb rate or high speed, doesn't it? Someone else mentioned >>too rich a mixture, but darn it, the prop was STILL turning 2700, so what's >>the problem? The only thing that comes to my mind is way excessive drag, but >>he wasn't trying to climb with an extra 500 lbs and flaps down, was he? :) >>There is a troubling mystery here, and I for one, would really like to know >>the answer when it comes... >> >>Jerry Cochran > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:44:54 PM PST US From: Michael McGee Subject: Re: RV-List: Re:Late reply to plane new RV with apparently poor power. --> RV-List message posted by: Michael McGee The engine was running at extreme rich and had enough fuel going through it to just about put the fire out. If you put an engine on a dyno and dialed it in to put out 180 hp at 2700 and wide open, you'll see about 28" MAP. From there start richening the mixture WAY beyond normal rich (you couldn't do this in an airplane that was properly set up). As the mixture gets richer the power starts to drop and you are still showing 2700/28". If the power falls enough the governor will flatten the prop out to the stops. A CS properly set up for the airframe will still have enough pitch to fly if it gets enough rpm (or power). Once you get rich enough and your power falls enough you will start to see an rpm drop just as on a fixed pitch because the CS is on the stops. These guys weren't quite there, luckily. On the RV we're talking about the prop could have been running on the low pitch stops but was more probably just not quite there. That doesn't mean it is making rated power. If this had been a fixed pitch prop with the problem they described they wouldn't have made 2700. As it was they reported 500 ft/min climb so they had some power just not normal power at 2700/26". If we had some data for the prop pitch when the Hartzell is on the stops you could figure out about what airspeed they got at 500 ft/min climb. They were rich enough that they should have been leaving a black soot trail through the sky like an old turbojet. I saw a C-182 with a stuck float do that on take off once-- no climb rate and he made a really gentle turn back to the field and landed coughing and sputtering (the engine). This may have been similar to trying a take off from Leadville, Colorado with the mixture full rich. That got kinda long winded, did it answer the question? Mike At 19:36 2003-04-20 -0700, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer > >Ok as long as I have been in aviation I don't understand how that can be >Michael. Most CS props have stops at low pitch so it is not like the >prop is going to flatten out so much that it well not produce any >thrust. How can it be that a prop turning 2700 rpm well not produce any >climb performance? 2700/26 show me an engine that is producing lots of >climb power. > >Jerry >do not archive >-------------------------- > >Michael McGee wrote: > > --> RV-List message posted by: Michael McGee > > > > Jerry- > > It was running super rich due to a fuel injection part not being set up > > properly from the factory. An engine can show these numbers (2700/26") > and > > barely be producing power. > > Mike > > Mike McGee, RV-4 N996RV, O320-E2G, Hillsboro, OR > > 13B in gestation mode > > > > At 14:43 2003-04-20 -0400, you wrote: > > > >>--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry2DT@aol.com > >> > >>Guys... > >> > >>Sorry for another late reply, but... The original poster stated 2700 > prop rpm > >>and 26" man pressure. Did we ever find out if it was a CS or FP prop? Still > >>hard to believe he could achieve these readings in normal flight > >>configuration WITHOUT producing rated power. One poster gave the extreme > >>example of a vne dive with idle cutoff and flat pitch, WOT, but since he > >>wasn't doing that, why wouldn't this ship climb? > >> > >>If one turns any reasonably pitched prop at 2700 rpm, it's got to produce > >>either a decent climb rate or high speed, doesn't it? Someone else > mentioned > >>too rich a mixture, but darn it, the prop was STILL turning 2700, so what's > >>the problem? The only thing that comes to my mind is way excessive > drag, but > >>he wasn't trying to climb with an extra 500 lbs and flaps down, was he? :) > >>There is a troubling mystery here, and I for one, would really like to know > >>the answer when it comes... > >> > >>Jerry Cochran > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:59:23 PM PST US From: Jerry Springer Subject: Re: RV-List: Re:Late reply to plane new RV with apparently poor power. --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer I guess it is just me, it still does not add up because a prop at low pitch to the stops and with that kind of rpm it should be climbing like everything. UNLESS!! the prop also was not setup right and the flat pitch was so flat there was not any thrust being produced. See ya around, Jerry do not archive Michael McGee wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: Michael McGee > > The engine was running at extreme rich and had enough fuel going through it > to just about put the fire out. If you put an engine on a dyno and dialed > it in to put out 180 hp at 2700 and wide open, you'll see about 28" > MAP. From there start richening the mixture WAY beyond normal rich (you > couldn't do this in an airplane that was properly set up). As the mixture > gets richer the power starts to drop and you are still showing > 2700/28". If the power falls enough the governor will flatten the prop out > to the stops. A CS properly set up for the airframe will still have enough > pitch to fly if it gets enough rpm (or power). Once you get rich enough > and your power falls enough you will start to see an rpm drop just as on a > fixed pitch because the CS is on the stops. These guys weren't quite > there, luckily. > > On the RV we're talking about the prop could have been running on the low > pitch stops but was more probably just not quite there. That doesn't mean > it is making rated power. If this had been a fixed pitch prop with the > problem they described they wouldn't have made 2700. As it was they > reported 500 ft/min climb so they had some power just not normal power at > 2700/26". If we had some data for the prop pitch when the Hartzell is on > the stops you could figure out about what airspeed they got at 500 ft/min > climb. > > They were rich enough that they should have been leaving a black soot trail > through the sky like an old turbojet. I saw a C-182 with a stuck float do > that on take off once-- no climb rate and he made a really gentle turn back > to the field and landed coughing and sputtering (the engine). This may > have been similar to trying a take off from Leadville, Colorado with the > mixture full rich. > > That got kinda long winded, did it answer the question? > > Mike > > At 19:36 2003-04-20 -0700, you wrote: > >>--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer >> >>Ok as long as I have been in aviation I don't understand how that can be >>Michael. Most CS props have stops at low pitch so it is not like the >>prop is going to flatten out so much that it well not produce any >>thrust. How can it be that a prop turning 2700 rpm well not produce any >>climb performance? 2700/26 show me an engine that is producing lots of >>climb power. >> >>Jerry >>do not archive >>-------------------------- >> >>Michael McGee wrote: >> >>>--> RV-List message posted by: Michael McGee >>> >>>Jerry- >>>It was running super rich due to a fuel injection part not being set up >>>properly from the factory. An engine can show these numbers (2700/26") >> >>and >> >>>barely be producing power. >>>Mike >>>Mike McGee, RV-4 N996RV, O320-E2G, Hillsboro, OR >>>13B in gestation mode >>> >>>At 14:43 2003-04-20 -0400, you wrote: >>> >>> >>>>--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry2DT@aol.com >>>> >>>>Guys... >>>> >>>>Sorry for another late reply, but... The original poster stated 2700 >>> >>prop rpm >> >>>>and 26" man pressure. Did we ever find out if it was a CS or FP prop? Still >>>>hard to believe he could achieve these readings in normal flight >>>>configuration WITHOUT producing rated power. One poster gave the extreme >>>>example of a vne dive with idle cutoff and flat pitch, WOT, but since he >>>>wasn't doing that, why wouldn't this ship climb? >>>> >>>>If one turns any reasonably pitched prop at 2700 rpm, it's got to produce >>>>either a decent climb rate or high speed, doesn't it? Someone else >>> >>mentioned >> >>>>too rich a mixture, but darn it, the prop was STILL turning 2700, so what's >>>>the problem? The only thing that comes to my mind is way excessive >>> >>drag, but >> >>>>he wasn't trying to climb with an extra 500 lbs and flaps down, was he? :) >>>>There is a troubling mystery here, and I for one, would really like to know >>>>the answer when it comes... >>>> >>>>Jerry Cochran >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:12:47 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Fuel Senders From: "" --> RV-List message posted by: "" All, The day has come to order the 7A wings, and I am trying to determine which senders to choose. I searched the archives on the comparison, and most of the data seemed somewhat outdated (prior to many of the new enginer monitors being released). That being said...I will likely go with one of two options: 1) Panel full of steam guages 2) "Cheap" engine monitor (Grand Rapids?) Will either capacitance or resistance work with most of the new electronic monitors? If I understand correctly...capacitance won't work with the analog gauges? Any feedback would be appreciated. Thanks, Scott 7A Emp Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:36:01 PM PST US From: Michael McGee Subject: Re: RV-List: Re:Late reply to plane new RV with apparently poor power. --> RV-List message posted by: Michael McGee I suspect (and I'm not a CS expert) that in a climbing RV making normal power a CS prop is a long ways from the stops. Maybe 5 or 6 degree off the stops. Max pitch change is something like 11 or 12 degrees. Now you've got me curious... Who's got the pitch range of a Hartzell set up for an RV? Mike At 21:59 2003-04-20 -0700, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer > >I guess it is just me, it still does not add up because a prop at low >pitch to the stops and with that kind of rpm it should be climbing like >everything. UNLESS!! the prop also was not setup right and the flat >pitch was so flat there was not any thrust being produced. > >See ya around, > >Jerry >do not archive >Michael McGee wrote: > > --> RV-List message posted by: Michael McGee > > > > The engine was running at extreme rich and had enough fuel going > through it > > to just about put the fire out. If you put an engine on a dyno and dialed > > it in to put out 180 hp at 2700 and wide open, you'll see about 28" > > MAP. From there start richening the mixture WAY beyond normal rich (you > > couldn't do this in an airplane that was properly set up). As the mixture > > gets richer the power starts to drop and you are still showing > > 2700/28". If the power falls enough the governor will flatten the prop > out > > to the stops. A CS properly set up for the airframe will still have > enough > > pitch to fly if it gets enough rpm (or power). Once you get rich enough > > and your power falls enough you will start to see an rpm drop just as on a > > fixed pitch because the CS is on the stops. These guys weren't quite > > there, luckily. > > > > On the RV we're talking about the prop could have been running on the low > > pitch stops but was more probably just not quite there. That doesn't mean > > it is making rated power. If this had been a fixed pitch prop with the > > problem they described they wouldn't have made 2700. As it was they > > reported 500 ft/min climb so they had some power just not normal power at > > 2700/26". If we had some data for the prop pitch when the Hartzell is on > > the stops you could figure out about what airspeed they got at 500 ft/min > > climb. > > > > They were rich enough that they should have been leaving a black soot > trail > > through the sky like an old turbojet. I saw a C-182 with a stuck float do > > that on take off once-- no climb rate and he made a really gentle turn > back > > to the field and landed coughing and sputtering (the engine). This may > > have been similar to trying a take off from Leadville, Colorado with the > > mixture full rich. > > > > That got kinda long winded, did it answer the question? > > > > Mike > > > > At 19:36 2003-04-20 -0700, you wrote: > > > >>--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer > >> > >>Ok as long as I have been in aviation I don't understand how that can be > >>Michael. Most CS props have stops at low pitch so it is not like the > >>prop is going to flatten out so much that it well not produce any > >>thrust. How can it be that a prop turning 2700 rpm well not produce any > >>climb performance? 2700/26 show me an engine that is producing lots of > >>climb power. > >> > >>Jerry > >>do not archive > >>-------------------------- > >> > >>Michael McGee wrote: > >> > >>>--> RV-List message posted by: Michael McGee > >>> > >>>Jerry- > >>>It was running super rich due to a fuel injection part not being set up > >>>properly from the factory. An engine can show these numbers (2700/26") > >> > >>and > >> > >>>barely be producing power. > >>>Mike > >>>Mike McGee, RV-4 N996RV, O320-E2G, Hillsboro, OR > >>>13B in gestation mode > >>> > >>>At 14:43 2003-04-20 -0400, you wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>>--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry2DT@aol.com > >>>> > >>>>Guys... > >>>> > >>>>Sorry for another late reply, but... The original poster stated 2700 > >>> > >>prop rpm > >> > >>>>and 26" man pressure. Did we ever find out if it was a CS or FP prop? > Still > >>>>hard to believe he could achieve these readings in normal flight > >>>>configuration WITHOUT producing rated power. One poster gave the extreme > >>>>example of a vne dive with idle cutoff and flat pitch, WOT, but since he > >>>>wasn't doing that, why wouldn't this ship climb? > >>>> > >>>>If one turns any reasonably pitched prop at 2700 rpm, it's got to > produce > >>>>either a decent climb rate or high speed, doesn't it? Someone else > >>> > >>mentioned > >> > >>>>too rich a mixture, but darn it, the prop was STILL turning 2700, so > what's > >>>>the problem? The only thing that comes to my mind is way excessive > >>> > >>drag, but > >> > >>>>he wasn't trying to climb with an extra 500 lbs and flaps down, was > he? :) > >>>>There is a troubling mystery here, and I for one, would really like > to know > >>>>the answer when it comes... > >>>> > >>>>Jerry Cochran > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >