---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 05/12/03: 62 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:58 AM - Super RV's (Wayne R. Couture) 2. 04:25 AM - Re: Re: Tee Shirts (graham jones) 3. 04:53 AM - Re: RV-10 Photos (graham jones) 4. 05:34 AM - Re: Removing a Sensenich prop (Gordon or Marge Comfort) 5. 06:13 AM - Handheld Radio Wiring (Lenleg@aol.com) 6. 06:37 AM - Re: Super RV's (Finn Lassen) 7. 06:40 AM - Re: Ground adj rudder pedals RV8 QB (Jack Fromm) 8. 06:43 AM - Re: Infinity stick grip wiring logic (Dwpetrus@aol.com) 9. 06:48 AM - Re: Removing a Sensenich prop (Cy Galley) 10. 07:04 AM - jerry s / i did photos albany (WPAerial@aol.com) 11. 07:35 AM - Re: Super RV's (Brian Denk) 12. 08:03 AM - Re: Removing a Sensenich prop (Elsa & Henry) 13. 08:14 AM - Re: Super RV's (Wayne R. Couture) 14. 08:19 AM - Re: Super RV's (Wayne R. Couture) 15. 08:21 AM - Re: Super RV's (Scott Bilinski) 16. 08:39 AM - This is easier than I thought. (Bill Dube) 17. 09:04 AM - Re: Super RV's (RV_8 Pilot) 18. 10:42 AM - Re: Super RV's (Finn Lassen) 19. 10:50 AM - Re: Super RV's (Finn Lassen) 20. 10:59 AM - Email Address (Bell, Bruce B.) 21. 11:37 AM - Re: Super RV's (Canyon) 22. 11:42 AM - Re: Re: LED swivel map/night lights ( Help ) (Bill Dube) 23. 12:13 PM - Hot to Cool Flight (Wheeler North) 24. 12:42 PM - Re: Super RV's (Boyd C. Braem) 25. 12:46 PM - Dynon Update Report (Wheeler North) 26. 12:50 PM - Canoopy cuttin time (Al Grajek) 27. 12:54 PM - Re: This is easier than I thought. (Bob) 28. 01:07 PM - Re: Bendix throttle body/fuel line to fuel injector (Bob) 29. 01:59 PM - Lake County Airport (was: Hot to Cool Flight) (Bill Dube) 30. 02:45 PM - Re: Dynon Update Report (Randy Lervold) 31. 02:50 PM - Re: Dynon Update Report (Phil Birkelbach) 32. 03:26 PM - max ROC (David.vonLinsowe) 33. 03:30 PM - Re: Super RV's (Kevin Horton) 34. 03:53 PM - Tee Shirts (Ken Brooks) 35. 03:56 PM - Re: Canoopy cuttin time (Jim Sears) 36. 04:10 PM - Furnace Creek to Leadville (John) 37. 04:13 PM - Re: Canoopy cuttin time (Jim Sears) 38. 04:25 PM - fuel float wire (Wayne Pedersen) 39. 04:28 PM - T&B or TC (J. R. Dial) 40. 04:58 PM - Re: Super RV's (LeastDrag93066@aol.com) 41. 05:18 PM - Re: Furnace Creek to Leadville (Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club) 42. 05:32 PM - Re: Furnace Creek to Leadville (Konrad Werner) 43. 05:32 PM - Engine bolts () 44. 05:35 PM - Re: fuel float wire (Doug Gray) 45. 05:52 PM - Re: Humor - Delete Now (Kevin Horton) 46. 06:09 PM - Looking for E-Mail Address (David Schaefer) 47. 06:17 PM - Flying days (Austin) 48. 06:21 PM - Re: Super RV's (Doug Gray) 49. 07:00 PM - Re: Furnace Creek to Leadville (Michael McGee) 50. 07:06 PM - Re: Dynon Update Report (mstewart@qa.butler.com) 51. 07:14 PM - Re: Hot to Cool Flight (RV6 Flyer) 52. 07:21 PM - Re: Looking for E-Mail Address (Elsa & Henry) 53. 07:30 PM - Re: Super RV's (Finn Lassen) 54. 07:30 PM - Re: Humor - Delete Now (Tom Gummo) 55. 07:50 PM - Yaesu handheld nav/com (Rob W M Shipley) 56. 08:31 PM - Re: Super RV's (Jaye and Scott Jackson) 57. 08:38 PM - Re: Email Address (Vanremog@aol.com) 58. 08:43 PM - C/S prop spitting oil (Alex Peterson) 59. 08:57 PM - Re: Supporting the other ends of our gyros (Alex Peterson) 60. 09:01 PM - Re: Looking for E-Mail Address (Vanremog@aol.com) 61. 09:04 PM - Twelfth Annual Homewing RV Fly-In (Randall Henderson) 62. 09:44 PM - Re: C/S prop spitting oil (Tim Lewis) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:58:40 AM PST US From: "Wayne R. Couture" Subject: RV-List: Super RV's --> RV-List message posted by: "Wayne R. Couture" I would like to pose a question to the super RV owners and builders. I am considering hanging one of "Affordable Turbine Powers" engines on my 8A when and if they come available this summer. Mr. Nearhoof of ATP informed me that they have seen as much as 290 hp from this engine. The engine weighs less than 200 lbs. Would any beef-up of the airframe be required to handle the extra HP? Any thoughts? Wayne RV-8A qb Wiring ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:25:00 AM PST US From: graham jones Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Tee Shirts --> RV-List message posted by: graham jones Dick, and other Listers What sort of primer should I use on my Tee shirt?..... and should I wash it in Alumiprep or some other pre wash soaker before priming .......???? My mother always warned me about using harsh scourers on delicates so should I get a softer grader of scotchbrite to rub it back??? Will the 567-3 AN rivets be enough to hold the edge seams together or should I use Proseal (or RTV???) for extra strength??? Sorry, Couldn't resist..... But please, please, PLEASE, EVERYBODY! Get over IT!!!! (This Tee shirt thing!) MOVE ON, MOVE UP and GET A LIFE!!!!! Jonesy in OZ... Definitely - Do not archive ! ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:53:25 AM PST US From: "graham jones" Subject: Re: RV-List: RV-10 Photos --> RV-List message posted by: "graham jones" Hmmm, Only a two bladed prop up front..... I guess it's only a mule prop on the engine at the moment but what will this thing climb like with a three bladed MT stiring up the molecules??? Ahhhh, Lust is a wonderful thing..... Jonesy in OZ No Graham! You can't have one till you've built your 6A!!!!!!!...... ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:34:15 AM PST US From: "Gordon or Marge Comfort" Subject: Re: RV-List: Removing a Sensenich prop --> RV-List message posted by: "Gordon or Marge Comfort" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug and Bonnie" Subject: RV-List: Removing a Sensenich prop > --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug and Bonnie" > > I'm working on mounting my spinner on my Sensenich prop. > The prop extension has two pins that insert into holes in > the prop itself. I cleaned the pins with Scotch brite > and polished the holes in the prop with Scotch brite and > mounted the prop, spinner rear plate, and prop extension > onto my engine. It was a tight fit, but I pulled the > assembly tight using the prop bolts. I now have the > spinner cutouts done and the spinner drilled to the > rear mounting plate. I removed the prop, spinner rear > plate, and prop extension from the engine and tried to > separate them. No joy! > Any suggestions would be welcome. > > Thanks, > Doug Medema RV-6A N276DM (reserved) nearly ready for the Doug: When in doubt, call Sensenich. My removal method is as follows: On a solid surface, block the prop/back plate/extension combination with wood so that the extension is clear of the surface by an inch or more. If the surface is concrete, place a wood guard on the floor to catch the extension. Using a drift and suitable hammer (2# works well) drive the dowels out of the prop a little at a time alternating so as to not cock the assy. The drift needs to be hard enough and small enough in diameter that it doesn't bind in the prop. I used a drill blank about 5"long and 1/32 smaller than the hole in the prop. When assembling the combination, rather than use the prop bolts to pull with, try the same hammer, a block of hardwood and a solid surface. I don't know if you could stretch the bolts or not but you might increase thread wear using them. The dowels basically drive the prop and are supposed to be tight. They needn't be polished but should be clean. If, after several mount, dismount events, the dowels are slightly out of place in the extension, they can be repositioned using the above techniques. Gordon Comfort N363GC p.s. Ed Zercher monitors this list and he may wish to comment. GC ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:13:24 AM PST US From: Lenleg@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Handheld Radio Wiring --> RV-List message posted by: Lenleg@aol.com List: Okay you electronic gurus ... I need your help. I have a Yaseau handheld for backup with the Icom A200 installed in my 8A. I would like to be able to somehow get the Yaseau in line though my headset to use in air to air communication. There are no y adaptors for this that I can find. I thought of trying to build up something myself but before going to the trouble I am not sure it would even work ??? Thoughts? Len Leggette RV-8A N901LL Greensboro, N.C. 73 hours !! ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:37:42 AM PST US From: Finn Lassen Subject: Re: RV-List: Super RV's --> RV-List message posted by: Finn Lassen I'd suggest you install a couple of extra fuel tanks. Their reported low fuel burn in the Sport Aviation article is pure bunk! See the article in the latest Kit Planes, which have somewhat more realistic figures. Expect at least double the fuel burn burn per horse power, compared to a piston (and rotary) powered airplane! Now you can't say you weren't warned! Finn Wayne R. Couture wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Wayne R. Couture" > >I would like to pose a question to the super RV owners and builders. I am considering hanging one of "Affordable Turbine Powers" engines on my 8A when and if they come available this summer. Mr. Nearhoof of ATP informed me that they have seen as much as 290 hp from this engine. The engine weighs less than 200 lbs. Would any beef-up of the airframe be required to handle the extra HP? Any thoughts? > >Wayne >RV-8A qb >Wiring > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:40:38 AM PST US From: "Jack Fromm" Subject: Re: RV-List: Ground adj rudder pedals RV8 QB --> RV-List message posted by: "Jack Fromm" --> RV-List message posted by: Geoff Evans > >Well, when I place my rudder pedal angles on the floor at the proper >distance >from each other and the proper distance from the centerline of the rivets >that are already in the floor, the angles sit directly over the tops of the >rivets in the firewall angle and in the gear box angle. Geoff, I had the exact same problem. I drilled out the rivets in both the gear box and firewall angles, made a template to transfer the holes to the rudder pedal angles and then put a blind rivet in both holes. I didn't call Van's about it but figured that both rivets were important. The floor doesn't seem that strong so I thought the whole structure should be tied together by the more substantial angles at the firewall and gear tower. Of course this was after I drilled the rudder pedal angle holes per the plans without seeing how it would fit in the actual airplane. :-( Ended up ordering new angles. Jack Fromm RV-8 QB Engine baffles ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:43:54 AM PST US From: Dwpetrus@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Infinity stick grip wiring logic --> RV-List message posted by: Dwpetrus@aol.com I put a switch to disconnect the ground from whichever stick in not in use for electric trim. Wayne Petrus RV8A flying ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:48:56 AM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: RV-List: Removing a Sensenich prop --> RV-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" If the prop extension is aluminum and the pins are steel, I would try warming the two so that differential expansion would free the pins. Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org Always looking for articles for the Experimenter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug and Bonnie" Subject: RV-List: Removing a Sensenich prop > --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug and Bonnie" > > I'm working on mounting my spinner on my Sensenich prop. > The prop extension has two pins that insert into holes in > the prop itself. I cleaned the pins with Scotch brite > and polished the holes in the prop with Scotch brite and > mounted the prop, spinner rear plate, and prop extension > onto my engine. It was a tight fit, but I pulled the > assembly tight using the prop bolts. I now have the > spinner cutouts done and the spinner drilled to the > rear mounting plate. I removed the prop, spinner rear > plate, and prop extension from the engine and tried to > separate them. No joy! > > I made a "gear puller" of sorts by using some 3/8" > threaded rods pushing on a washer which pushed on the pin. > I put some nuts on the threaded rod and placed a 1/4" piece > of steel over the two pieces of threaded rod. I could raise > this piece of steel by moving the nuts. I then put two pieces > of 1/4" steel across the first piece and tied them to the > prop using the straps Van supplied with the wing kit. > Turning the nuts so as to raise the steel cross bar resulted > in the 1/4" steel bending! I suppose I could get some > thicker steel, but there seems like there has to be a better > way. > > Any suggestions would be welcome. > > Thanks, > Doug Medema RV-6A N276DM (reserved) nearly ready for the > airport! > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:04:33 AM PST US From: WPAerial@aol.com Subject: RV-List: jerry s / i did photos albany --> RV-List message posted by: WPAerial@aol.com Jerry, Sent first e-mail direct to you but it came back for some reason. Yep that was me doing the airplane photos in Albany. Wish we still had a place on the airport for breakfast. I really miss all the Independence guys that used to come every week. We still meet every Sat. at 7:00 at Yaquina Bay restaurant a crossed the freeway by McDonnalds. even have a few people from out of town stop in. If you come and don't want to walk the 3/4 mile give me a call the day before and I'll be glad to give you a ride. try it sometime. do not archive Jerry Wilken Albany Or. 541-926-8316 RV6A 104 hrs. N699WP ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:35:30 AM PST US From: "Brian Denk" Subject: Re: RV-List: Super RV's --> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" > >I would like to pose a question to the super RV owners and builders. I am >considering hanging one of "Affordable Turbine Powers" engines on my 8A >when and if they come available this summer. Mr. Nearhoof of ATP informed >me that they have seen as much as 290 hp from this engine. The engine >weighs less than 200 lbs. Would any beef-up of the airframe be required to >handle the extra HP? Any thoughts? > >Wayne >RV-8A qb >Wiring > I can't address the airframe beef-up question, but you will most definitely be in for a major league amount of front end work. The lighter engine will require a much more forward location for CG reasons. I'd make contact with the RV4 driver with this engine installed for particulars on installation/operation of this engine in an RV airframe. If that engine could put out 290hp continuously, it would be beeeeutifull in the RV-10! Brian Denk RV8 N94BD ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:32 AM PST US From: "Elsa & Henry" Subject: Re: RV-List: Removing a Sensenich prop --> RV-List message posted by: "Elsa & Henry" Doug, You have to drive the two pins that came with the prop extension, out of prop and back into the extension all the way in to clear the prop. That is the gist of what Sensenich writes in their manual. Use a heavy duty~3/8" dia flat end drift to do the job.(Sears sells them). Suggest you wrap the end of the drift with several turns of tape to prevent it contacting the sides of the bores in the prop, which could mar them. You will also have to use a heavy hammer (~4-5 lbs) to pound the drift. Don't forget to use eye protection to prevent injury, while pounding, in the event that a chip flies off the drift. Good Luck-------- Cheers!! ----Henry Hore ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:14:32 AM PST US From: "Wayne R. Couture" Subject: Re: RV-List: Super RV's --> RV-List message posted by: "Wayne R. Couture" I just got through reading that article and it reports a fuel burn of about 9-10gph, but that's a smaller turbine. ATP "says" they got there engine at 13.5gph at full throttle with the new electronic fuel injection at sea level and there seeing much more than 200hp! What are you using as a basis to call these numbers "bunk"? Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Finn Lassen" Subject: Re: RV-List: Super RV's > --> RV-List message posted by: Finn Lassen > > I'd suggest you install a couple of extra fuel tanks. Their reported low > fuel burn in the Sport Aviation article is pure bunk! See the article in > the latest Kit Planes, which have somewhat more realistic figures. > > Expect at least double the fuel burn burn per horse power, compared to a > piston (and rotary) powered airplane! > > Now you can't say you weren't warned! > > Finn > > Wayne R. Couture wrote: > > >--> RV-List message posted by: "Wayne R. Couture" > > > >I would like to pose a question to the super RV owners and builders. I am considering hanging one of "Affordable Turbine Powers" engines on my 8A when and if they come available this summer. Mr. Nearhoof of ATP informed me that they have seen as much as 290 hp from this engine. The engine weighs less than 200 lbs. Would any beef-up of the airframe be required to handle the extra HP? Any thoughts? > > > >Wayne > >RV-8A qb > >Wiring > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:19:47 AM PST US From: "Wayne R. Couture" Subject: Re: RV-List: Super RV's --> RV-List message posted by: "Wayne R. Couture" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Denk" Subject: Re: RV-List: Super RV's > --> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" > > > > > >I would like to pose a question to the super RV owners and builders. I am > >considering hanging one of "Affordable Turbine Powers" engines on my 8A > >when and if they come available this summer. Mr. Nearhoof of ATP informed > >me that they have seen as much as 290 hp from this engine. The engine > >weighs less than 200 lbs. Would any beef-up of the airframe be required to > >handle the extra HP? Any thoughts? > > > >Wayne > >RV-8A qb > >Wiring > > > > I can't address the airframe beef-up question, but you will most definitely > be in for a major league amount of front end work. The lighter engine will > require a much more forward location for CG reasons. I'd make contact with > the RV4 driver with this engine installed for particulars on > installation/operation of this engine in an RV airframe. If that engine > could put out 290hp continuously, it would be beeeeutifull in the RV-10! > > Brian Denk > RV8 N94BD > > ATP are the one's who put it in the RV-4 and they say the engine requires a more frontal position of about 10". I don't know if this would take care of the hole problem though. The nose wheel would also have to be moved forward. Wayne > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:51 AM PST US From: Scott Bilinski Subject: Re: RV-List: Super RV's --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski I would not count on that engine being available at all. They are pretty much stopped dead in their tracks on any developement due to finanical issues. Also call your insurance company and see what they say, the answer will be "no way". At least thats what I was told a year ago, even Loyds turned me down. At 05:57 AM 5/12/03 -0500, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Wayne R. Couture" > >I would like to pose a question to the super RV owners and builders. I am >considering hanging one of "Affordable Turbine Powers" engines on my 8A when >and if they come available this summer. Mr. Nearhoof of ATP informed me >that they have seen as much as 290 hp from this engine. The engine weighs >less than 200 lbs. Would any beef-up of the airframe be required to handle >the extra HP? Any thoughts? > >Wayne >RV-8A qb >Wiring > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:39:55 AM PST US From: Bill Dube Subject: RV-List: This is easier than I thought. --> RV-List message posted by: Bill Dube After spending months getting the crap cleaned out of the garage and setting up my shop, I started actually building the tail of my RV-7A this weekend. I spent about 10 hours working and I got a surprising amount done. I'm just drilled all the holes in the left HS skin and I'm about to disassemble the left HS for deburring and dimpling. I figure that I am about 15% complete on the tail. The kit and instructions are very well done. The parts seem high-quality and the instructions are clear and concise. The pre-punch is almost "cheating". :-) So far, I'm really enjoying the assembly process. At this point, I'm leaning away from the "quick build", but I'll wait until the tail is complete to decide. Tool stuff: I made my own fluting pliers. They work great. This kind of shows how much I like to build things myself. A small cordless screwdriver is the best way to twist the deburring tool. The V style deburring tool is a must, as is the ScotchBrite deburring wheel. I bought a Vixen file, but I haven't used it much. The bench belt/disk sander, along with the ScotchBrite wheel and V deburring tool, seems to do almost everything you might do with the Vixen file. The Vixen file was useful for removing occasional "nubs and nits" from the sheared edges, however. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:04:51 AM PST US From: "RV_8 Pilot" Subject: Re: RV-List: Super RV's --> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" Great minds think alike! ;) reminds me of a Lancair IVP - T in Abilene last year! made it from Las Vegas to Abilene in some increadible time like 3-3.5 hrs. RV-10T might not make that kind of time, but it's a project to think about! do not archive Bryan Jones -8 Pearland, Texas >I can't address the airframe beef-up question, but you will most definitely >be in for a major league amount of front end work. The lighter engine will >require a much more forward location for CG reasons. I'd make contact with >the RV4 driver with this engine installed for particulars on >installation/operation of this engine in an RV airframe. If that engine >could put out 290hp continuously, it would be beeeeutifull in the RV-10! > >Brian Denk >RV8 N94BD > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:42:01 AM PST US From: Finn Lassen Subject: Re: RV-List: Super RV's --> RV-List message posted by: Finn Lassen Here data from two people that's a lot more knowledgeable than me: >Several reasons. The main one I think is the limited compression ratio >> one can obtain with a single stage of centrifugal compressor >> is only about 3:1. These APU engines are made from glorified turbo chargers. >> Fuel consumption was of little consequence. >> >> The Mazda rotary is up to about 10:1 CR and a diesel >> is up to about 20:1 Modern axial flow turbo fan compressors are over >> 8:1 I think. Another is the compressor and turbine clearance >> is critical and as you make it smaller the clearance gap becomes a larger >> and larger percentage of the total leakage. The third thing is turbine inlet >> temperature. Efficient high temp turbines are very expensive indeed. >> Paul Lamar > > > >-Dan Ruggirello wrote: > > >>> >>> Theoretically, it is possible to get the fuel efficiency they are claiming, >>> realistically, impossible. I ran the numbers some time ago when I was >>> interested in the ATP turbine. I plugged in some knowns and assumptions in >>> a turbine analysis software package and these are the numbers needed to >>> develop 200 HP: >>> >>> air flow rate : 126.5 gal/s (wow!) >>> compressor pressure ratio : 4:1 >>> Turbine max exhaust temp : 1090 F >>> fuel consumption : 15 gal/hr >>> Shaft HP : 186.3 HP >>> Thrust HP : 13.7 HP >>> Total HP : 200 HP >>> BSFC : 0.47 >>> thermal efficiency : 29% >>> compressor efficiency : 100% >>> turbine efficiency : 100% >>> combustion efficiency : 100% >>> gearbox efficiency : 100% >>> >>> Notes: >>> The air flow rate required is astounding. >>> The 4:1 compression ratio is possible only for a very well designed >>> centrifugal compressor. >>> ATP is using the full residual thrust to make up the 200HP. This is not >>> realistic because the exhaust must be deflected and piped. >>> The thermal efficiency is the best you can possibly ever attain using the >>> Joule-Brayton cycle. >>> The 100% compressor effeciencies are of course impossible. High >>> efficiencies are typical for multi-stage compressors. But, this is a single >>> stage compressor........ >>> The remaining 100% efficiencies are all of course also impossible. >>> >>> I defected from the ATP camp because I didn't believe their numbers and they >>> couldn't supply the data to back them up like the prop thrust vs hp curves. >>> I too believe they are operating a scam. >>> >>> Dan >>> >>> PS - for those interested - here is the hand calc for thermal efficiency >>> and fuel consumption - >>> Best possible efficiency and gph calcs: >>> >>> Assumptions: >>> Joule-Brayton thermal cycle applies >>> constant specific heat, k = 1.4 >>> T1 = ambient temperature = 60 F >>> P1 = ambient pressure = 14.7 psia >>> P2/P1 = compressor pressure ratio = 4.0 >>> T4 = max turbine exit temp = 1090 F >>> HV = heating value of JP4 = 18700 BTU/lb >>> d = density of JP4@60F = 6.3lbs/gal >>> no ram air pressure >>> no regeneration gains >>> isentropic, adiabatic compression and expansion >>> adiabatic combustor >>> 100% component efficiencies >>> ------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> n = thermal efficiency >>> = useful work done/heat added >>> = 1-1/((P2/P1) ((k-1)/k)) >>> = 1-1/((4 (1.4-1)/1.4)) >>> = 1-1/4 .286 >>> = .327 or 32.7% >>> >>> in terms of fuel consumption and HP: >>> n = HP*2544/(HV*FC*d) >>> >>> where >>> FC = fuel consumption (gal/hr) >>> d = density of fuel = 6.7 lbs/gal >>> HP = total power >>> Assuming that total power is 200HP, >>> >>> FC = HP*2544/(HV*d*n) >>> = 200*2544/(18700*6.3*.327) >>> = 13.21 gal/hr >>> >>> Using variable specific heat, thermal efficiency is calculated to >>> be ~31% (calcs not shown). Fuel consumption is then: >>> FC= 200*2544/(18700*6.3*.31) >>> = 13.98 gal/hr >> >> > > > Finn Wayne R. Couture wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Wayne R. Couture" > >I just got through reading that article and it reports a fuel burn of about >9-10gph, but that's a smaller turbine. ATP "says" they got there engine at >13.5gph at full throttle with the new electronic fuel injection at sea level >and there seeing much more than 200hp! What are you using as a basis to >call these numbers "bunk"? > >Wayne > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Finn Lassen" >To: >Subject: Re: RV-List: Super RV's > > > > >>--> RV-List message posted by: Finn Lassen >> >>I'd suggest you install a couple of extra fuel tanks. Their reported low >>fuel burn in the Sport Aviation article is pure bunk! See the article in >>the latest Kit Planes, which have somewhat more realistic figures. >> >>Expect at least double the fuel burn burn per horse power, compared to a >>piston (and rotary) powered airplane! >> >>Now you can't say you weren't warned! >> >>Finn >> >>Wayne R. Couture wrote: >> >> >> >>>--> RV-List message posted by: "Wayne R. Couture" >>> >>> > > > >>>I would like to pose a question to the super RV owners and builders. I >>> >>> >am considering hanging one of "Affordable Turbine Powers" engines on my 8A >when and if they come available this summer. Mr. Nearhoof of ATP informed >me that they have seen as much as 290 hp from this engine. The engine >weighs less than 200 lbs. Would any beef-up of the airframe be required to >handle the extra HP? Any thoughts? > > >>>Wayne >>>RV-8A qb >>>Wiring >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:50:42 AM PST US From: Finn Lassen Subject: Re: RV-List: Super RV's --> RV-List message posted by: Finn Lassen Put simply: there is no way you are going to see a BSFC (brake specific fuel comsumption) of .41 (or less) at sea level in a single stage jet engine. No way! Investigate it yourself: Talk to guys who's flying jets, especially new high efficiency jet engines. Ask them about fuel flow vs. horse power at sea level and at what altitude jets start to become fuel efficient. Finn Wayne R. Couture wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Wayne R. Couture" > >I just got through reading that article and it reports a fuel burn of about >9-10gph, but that's a smaller turbine. ATP "says" they got there engine at >13.5gph at full throttle with the new electronic fuel injection at sea level >and there seeing much more than 200hp! What are you using as a basis to >call these numbers "bunk"? > >Wayne > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Finn Lassen" >To: >Subject: Re: RV-List: Super RV's > > > > >>--> RV-List message posted by: Finn Lassen >> >>I'd suggest you install a couple of extra fuel tanks. Their reported low >>fuel burn in the Sport Aviation article is pure bunk! See the article in >>the latest Kit Planes, which have somewhat more realistic figures. >> >>Expect at least double the fuel burn burn per horse power, compared to a >>piston (and rotary) powered airplane! >> >>Now you can't say you weren't warned! >> >>Finn >> >>Wayne R. Couture wrote: >> >> >> >>>--> RV-List message posted by: "Wayne R. Couture" >>> >>> > > > >>>I would like to pose a question to the super RV owners and builders. I >>> >>> >am considering hanging one of "Affordable Turbine Powers" engines on my 8A >when and if they come available this summer. Mr. Nearhoof of ATP informed >me that they have seen as much as 290 hp from this engine. The engine >weighs less than 200 lbs. Would any beef-up of the airframe be required to >handle the extra HP? Any thoughts? > > >>>Wayne >>>RV-8A qb >>>Wiring >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:59:59 AM PST US From: "Bell, Bruce B." Subject: RV-List: Email Address --> RV-List message posted by: "Bell, Bruce B." Anyone on the list know Bruce Cruikshank's current email address? Thanks, Bruce Bell Lubbock, Texas RV4 # 2888 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:37:32 AM PST US From: Canyon Subject: Re: RV-List: Super RV's --> RV-List message posted by: Canyon Finn Lassen wrote: >Ask them about fuel flow vs. horse power at >sea level and at what altitude jets start to become fuel efficient. --- OK -- I'll bite. :-) At what altitude? And how about some of the older mil surplus small pure jets -- worth fooling with or overhauling? Of course that would be a tough surgery placing that in an RV but Quixote might enjoy it. Steve ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:42:44 AM PST US From: Bill Dube Subject: RE: RV-List: re: LED swivel map/night lights ( Help ) --> RV-List message posted by: Bill Dube Here is an LED gooseneck unit that plugs into a USB port that might do the trick. You could mount a female USB connector in the panel and wire up a voltage regulator (~$1) to drop the bus voltage down to the 5 volts the light needs. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:13:12 PM PST US From: Wheeler North Subject: RV-List: Hot to Cool Flight --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North Hey, has anybody ever done a flight from Furnace Creek CA to Leadville CO? Roughly 534NM with a change in altitude of 10137' Seems like it would be great fun to give it a go. do not archive ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:42:25 PM PST US From: "Boyd C. Braem" Subject: Re: RV-List: Super RV's --> RV-List message posted by: "Boyd C. Braem" Unfortunately, Finn is correct ( and, I don't mean it's unfortunate that Finn is right, for a change, but that his info is right for people that want jet engines). Although axial combustion engines (danger, Will Robinson--not to include rotary Mazda engines in this discussion) are getting better--right now, there is still no good solution to the altitude/fuel flow/TAS problem--esp.!!! for a single-stage jet engine. As far as I can tell from the literature, the ATP engine is derived from an APU design, and *efficiency* was never really put into any APU design that I've ever seen. I could be wrong and, Lord knows, I've been wrong a lot--but, I have truly done my share to contribute to global warming with all kinds of jet, turbine, fan, turboprop, blah,blah, blah, blah blah. There's a company down in Texas that puts Allison turbos in Bonanzas (the whole mod deal is close to a cool million--but, my ol' brain pan is starting to short circuit--and that price may not be currently accurate)--but the biggest logistical deal of the mod is to squeeze fuel into that Bonanza airframe so they can fly 1,000 mile legs with reserves, and I'm not sure that they get even that. So, for the present, anyone who claims to have an economical, relatively high horsepower GA turbine engine for our little airplanes, still has a lot of 'splaining (thank you, Ricky Ricardo) to do. Boyd RV-Super 6 (160 hp/11.5 gph@50% power) and I do hate myself for bringing that up do not archive Finn Lassen wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Finn Lassen > >Put simply: there is no way you are going to see a BSFC (brake specific >fuel comsumption) of .41 (or less) at sea level in a single stage jet >engine. No way! >Investigate it yourself: Talk to guys who's flying jets, especially new >high efficiency jet engines. Ask them about fuel flow vs. horse power at >sea level and at what altitude jets start to become fuel efficient. > >Finn > >Wayne R. Couture wrote: > > > >>--> RV-List message posted by: "Wayne R. Couture" >> >>I just got through reading that article and it reports a fuel burn of about >>9-10gph, but that's a smaller turbine. ATP "says" they got there engine at >>13.5gph at full throttle with the new electronic fuel injection at sea level >>and there seeing much more than 200hp! What are you using as a basis to >>call these numbers "bunk"? >> >>Wayne >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Finn Lassen" >>To: >>Subject: Re: RV-List: Super RV's >> >> >> >> >> >> >>>--> RV-List message posted by: Finn Lassen >>> >>>I'd suggest you install a couple of extra fuel tanks. Their reported low >>>fuel burn in the Sport Aviation article is pure bunk! See the article in >>>the latest Kit Planes, which have somewhat more realistic figures. >>> >>>Expect at least double the fuel burn burn per horse power, compared to a >>>piston (and rotary) powered airplane! >>> >>>Now you can't say you weren't warned! >>> >>>Finn >>> >>>Wayne R. Couture wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>--> RV-List message posted by: "Wayne R. Couture" >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> >> >>>>I would like to pose a question to the super RV owners and builders. I >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>am considering hanging one of "Affordable Turbine Powers" engines on my 8A >>when and if they come available this summer. Mr. Nearhoof of ATP informed >>me that they have seen as much as 290 hp from this engine. The engine >>weighs less than 200 lbs. Would any beef-up of the airframe be required to >>handle the extra HP? Any thoughts? >> >> >> >> >>>>Wayne >>>>RV-8A qb >>>>Wiring >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:46:13 PM PST US From: Wheeler North Subject: RV-List: Dynon Update Report --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North Folks, After some discussion with Doug M. at Dynon I changed my static source for the D-10 to be common with the other "Vans" twin static port. The WX was kinda lousy until this weekend. So I finally got to fly it to Columbia Apt from San Diego, for a camping outing. The two airspeeds were glued to each other at all speeds/alt both ways. Total time in air 4:40. The altitude is within 30 ft up to 9k but it sometimes lags by a few feet when going up or down quickly (RV style). The alt sometimes read about 30-40 ft off when on the ground, but it seems to be much closer in flight. I can hardly wait for the magnetometer and the pitot/AOA tube. The one thing I miss on it though is TAS. It would be really nice to have the scroll scale read in IAS with the digital readout displaying TAS. Hint hint. A temp sensor in the magnetometer would allow for this. The other thing that I didn't expect is its very difficult to get myself to focus on the data in the D-10. My scan genes are trained to go all around the panel and not stay in one place. W ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:50:03 PM PST US From: "Al Grajek" rv-list@matronics.com, vansairforce@yahoogroups.com Subject: RV-List: Canoopy cuttin time --> RV-List message posted by: "Al Grajek" Listers: I have searched the archives, but cant find what I am looking for. Does anybidy know of a good website, etc, that shows and explains well, the process of cutting and fitting the RV8 Canopy. Thanks Al Grajek ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 12:54:10 PM PST US From: Bob Subject: Re: RV-List: This is easier than I thought. --> RV-List message posted by: Bob > I bought a Vixen file, but I haven't used it much. I ended up buying a entire set of files. I used them mostly on the fuselage. Don't worry, you will get you money worth out of your files. Bob ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 01:07:30 PM PST US From: Bob Subject: Re: RV-List: Bendix throttle body/fuel line to fuel injector --> RV-List message posted by: Bob I ran mine to the rear of the accessory case and through the back baffle to the spider. I do get fuel vapor lock on the ground after engine shut off. I am planning to modify the fuel line by running it through some scat tubing that will receive ram air from the plenum area (back baffle). I have seen this done on C 310 and Twin Comanches. All of my fuel lines FWF are firesleeved. Bob >Need a bit of advice. I have a IO320 with a Bendix injection system. How >should I route the fuel line between the throttle body and the fuel >distributor which is mounted on top of the engine? Any help from guys with >this setup is greatly appreciated. >Thanks, >Bill Griffin RV6 >Baltimore, MD > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 01:59:39 PM PST US From: Bill Dube Subject: RV-List: Lake County Airport (was: Hot to Cool Flight) --> RV-List message posted by: Bill Dube At 01:12 PM 5/12/2003, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North > >Hey, > >has anybody ever done a flight from Furnace Creek CA to Leadville CO? >Roughly 534NM with a change in altitude of 10137' > >Seems like it would be great fun to give it a go. At 9,740 feet AGL, density altitude makes the take-off roll exciting, to say the least. You often need every bit of the 6,400 feet of runway to get the wheels off with a lightly-loaded 172. Don't be too quick to retract the flaps after you clear the runway. Luckily, there are no trees to clear at either end of the runway. Perhaps they have been previously "cleared" by folks that were loaded just a bit too heavily. : ) You may have to leave some passengers or baggage behind on a hot day. No joke. ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:45:39 PM PST US From: "Randy Lervold" Subject: Re: RV-List: Dynon Update Report --> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Lervold" > The one thing I miss on it though is TAS. It would be really nice to have > the scroll scale read in IAS with the digital readout displaying TAS. Hint > hint. A temp sensor in the magnetometer would allow for this. Wheeler, Once you've lived with real time TAS you don't want to be without it. That is precisely why I'm not upgrading to a D10 at this time. My Aircraft Instruments Air Data Computer (ADC) has it and I love it. (picure at http://www.aircraftinstruments.com/adc_features.htm). Glance at the TAS and at the GPS groundspeed and you immediately know what's going on with the winds. As you point out, TAS would require an OAT sensor. I encouraged Dynon last summer at Arlington to add this feature to no avail. To those that agree this is an important feature, please make your opinion known to Dynon. Randy Lervold RV-8, 307 hrs. www.rv-8.com Home Wing - Van's Air Force ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:50:54 PM PST US From: "Phil Birkelbach" Subject: Re: RV-List: Dynon Update Report --> RV-List message posted by: "Phil Birkelbach" What did you use as a reference for the altitude measurements? Godspeed, Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Fuselage http://www.myrv7.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wheeler North" Subject: RV-List: Dynon Update Report > --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North > > Folks, > > After some discussion with Doug M. at Dynon I changed my static source for > the D-10 to be common with the other "Vans" twin static port. > > The WX was kinda lousy until this weekend. So I finally got to fly it to > Columbia Apt from San Diego, for a camping outing. The two airspeeds were > glued to each other at all speeds/alt both ways. Total time in air 4:40. > > The altitude is within 30 ft up to 9k but it sometimes lags by a few feet > when going up or down quickly (RV style). > > The alt sometimes read about 30-40 ft off when on the ground, but it seems > to be much closer in flight. > > I can hardly wait for the magnetometer and the pitot/AOA tube. > > The one thing I miss on it though is TAS. It would be really nice to have > the scroll scale read in IAS with the digital readout displaying TAS. Hint > hint. A temp sensor in the magnetometer would allow for this. > > The other thing that I didn't expect is its very difficult to get myself to > focus on the data in the D-10. My scan genes are trained to go all around > the panel and not stay in one place. > > W > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 03:26:49 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: max ROC From: "David.vonLinsowe" --> RV-List message posted by: "David.vonLinsowe" Hi guys, I'm curious as to what airspeed you're getting max rate of climb in a 180 hp, RV-6 with a C/S prop? I'm doing some prop comparison testing and would like to start somewhere in the ball park. Since the VSI is pegged and I don't have room for something like the Rocky Mountain Micro Encoder, I'll be timing the altitude blocks. Thanks, Dave RV-6 O-360 C/S The need for (more) speed ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 03:30:42 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: Super RV's --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton The numbers I have seen for Allison 250 turboprops show a brake specific fuel consumption of about 0.65 lb fuel/hr per hp, or higher. The Allison 250 was designed as an aviation engine, so minimizing fuel consumption would have been a design goal. Allison 250s put out 300 - 500 hp (roughly), depending on the model. Turbine engines generally get less efficient as they get smaller, so a smaller engine (like the ATP) would be expected to have a higher BSFC. Add in the fact that low fuel consumption is not a design goal for APUs, as they typically don't run more than a few minutes per flight, and you must conclude that this engine would likely have a BSFC of 0.7 or greater. So, if it makes 200 hp, I would expect it to burn more like 140 lb/hr, or about 20 gph (Jet A is about 7 lb/gal). If it only burns about 13.5 gph, I would suspect it wasn't putting out more than 135 shaft hp, plus perhaps a bit of thrust. You should be awfully cautious about putting any money down until ATP demonstrates that they can deliver engines that perform as they claim, and are suitably reliable. Modern turbines are very reliable. But the ATP probably has more in common with the turbines designed in the 50s, which weren't nearly as reliable as the current generation. Don't say we didn't warn you, Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/ At 10:13 -0500 12/5/03, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Wayne R. Couture" > >I just got through reading that article and it reports a fuel burn of about >9-10gph, but that's a smaller turbine. ATP "says" they got there engine at >13.5gph at full throttle with the new electronic fuel injection at sea level >and there seeing much more than 200hp! What are you using as a basis to >call these numbers "bunk"? > >Wayne > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Finn Lassen" >To: >Subject: Re: RV-List: Super RV's > > >> --> RV-List message posted by: Finn Lassen >> >> I'd suggest you install a couple of extra fuel tanks. Their reported low >> fuel burn in the Sport Aviation article is pure bunk! See the article in >> the latest Kit Planes, which have somewhat more realistic figures. >> >> Expect at least double the fuel burn burn per horse power, compared to a >> piston (and rotary) powered airplane! >> >> Now you can't say you weren't warned! >> >> Finn >> >> Wayne R. Couture wrote: >> >> >--> RV-List message posted by: "Wayne R. Couture" > >> > >> >I would like to pose a question to the super RV owners and builders. I >am considering hanging one of "Affordable Turbine Powers" engines on my 8A >when and if they come available this summer. Mr. Nearhoof of ATP informed >me that they have seen as much as 290 hp from this engine. The engine >weighs less than 200 lbs. Would any beef-up of the airframe be required to >handle the extra HP? Any thoughts? >> > >> >Wayne >> >RV-8A qb >> >Wiring >> > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 03:53:50 PM PST US From: "Ken Brooks" Subject: RV-List: Tee Shirts --> RV-List message posted by: "Ken Brooks" Gee, DICK. . . I don't think that last Signature block admonition is RV-related! Tch, tch! Naughty, naughty! Get a life. Kindly do not archive. Dick DeCramer diesel@rconnect.com Why Wait? Move to EarthLink. ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 03:56:36 PM PST US From: "Jim Sears" Subject: Re: RV-List: Canoopy cuttin time --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Sears" ----- Original Message ----- From: Al Grajek ; ; Subject: RV-List: Canoopy cuttin time > --> RV-List message posted by: "Al Grajek" > > Listers: > I have searched the archives, but cant find what I am looking for. Does > anybidy know of a good website, etc, that shows and explains well, the > process of cutting and fitting the RV8 Canopy. > Thanks > Al Grajek > > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 04:10:02 PM PST US From: "John" Subject: RV-List: Furnace Creek to Leadville --> RV-List message posted by: "John" I don't fully agree regarding needing all that 6,400 feet of runway at Leadville to get off. Perhaps in a heavily loaded C-172 on a hot day, but in my 160HP fixed pitch prop RV6A I go in and out of Leadville (pattern altitude 10,700) with no real noticable difference than when operating from Salida at 7,500 ft. I certainly don't need more than 1000 feet or so and I have been in and out of Leadville perhaps 20 times. The only real difference I see is their coffee isn't so good ! FWIW John at Salida, CO ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 04:13:39 PM PST US From: "Jim Sears" Subject: Re: RV-List: Canoopy cuttin time --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Sears" Please excuse my goof. I sent my previous message by accident. That's what happens when one hits the send button instead of the cut button. :-( I sent a note to Al off line because he's a local and one of our building buddies. Jim Render and I are currently cutting and fitting the canopy to Jim's -9A. I can show Al some of that, if he wishes to drop by. BTW, I found that doing the slider canopy with Jim's RV is pretty simple. I was dreading it; but, it's not been that bad. I have to admit that I dreaded doing my tip up canopy on my -6A; but, I got through it just fine. :-) The neat thing was that we didn't have the plexi on the fuse for the first time until I'd cut it across the bow. Now, that sure is different than my old Orndorff tapes! When we finally did put it on the fuse, the darned thing was pretty close to being ready to drill. Neat! Jim Sears in KY Do not archive ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 04:25:56 PM PST US From: "Wayne Pedersen" Subject: RV-List: fuel float wire --> RV-List message posted by: "Wayne Pedersen" I bent the wire of the fuel float in the wrong direction. If I bend it back I fear that I will have weakened the wire and a potentially break. The NAPA store says I can only buy the wire with the sender. Anybody know where I can source just the fuel float wire by its self ? Thanks Wayne RV 7a tanks ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 04:28:14 PM PST US From: "J. R. Dial" Subject: RV-List: T&B or TC --> RV-List message posted by: "J. R. Dial" I have a free Turn & Bank or I can buy a Turn Coordinator. I know the difference in both but for partial panel only in emergency is there a good reason to prefer one over the other. This RV6 is not intended to be an IFR airplane. Can answer off list if you prefer. DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 04:58:50 PM PST US From: LeastDrag93066@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Super RV's --> RV-List message posted by: LeastDrag93066@aol.com In a message dated 05/12/2003 4:03:11 AM Pacific Daylight Time, commando@cox-internet.com writes: > Mr. Nearhoof of ATP informed me that they have seen as much as 290 hp from > this engine. (Stuff Cut) > > Wayne > RV-8A qb > Wiring > You might want to get some real data from an independent source on this one. In their recent article, they claim 10,000' in 11 minutes. I can do better than that with 140 hp. 17,500' in around 15 minutes. The first 10,000' is the easy part. Jim Ayers RV-3 N47RV LOM M332A engine MT electric CS propeller ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 05:18:31 PM PST US From: "Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club" Subject: Re: RV-List: Furnace Creek to Leadville --> RV-List message posted by: "Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club" John wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "John" > > I don't fully agree regarding needing all that 6,400 feet of runway at > Leadville to get off. Perhaps in a heavily loaded C-172 on a hot day, but in > my 160HP fixed pitch prop RV6A I go in and out of Leadville (pattern > altitude 10,700) with no real noticable difference than when operating from > Salida at 7,500 ft. I certainly don't need more than 1000 feet or so and I > have been in and out of Leadville perhaps 20 times. > > The only real difference I see is their coffee isn't so good ! > > FWIW John at Salida, CO > > _ Do not archive I just wonder if the coffee water ever boils... ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 05:32:19 PM PST US From: "Konrad Werner" Subject: Re: RV-List: Furnace Creek to Leadville --> RV-List message posted by: "Konrad Werner" Dear John, Your comparison is like Apples vs. Oranges for Performance #'s. I do believe your numbers in respect to your sporty RV 2-Seater. However: What is your -6A's Service Ceiling & Climb Rate at Sealevel? What is a C-172's Service Ceiling & Climb Rate at Sealevel? The engine may be the same, but not the frame (and mission)! (It's like putting the 350cid Chevy into a Camaro "OR" a PickUp.) P.S.: Who wouldn't rather fly a -6A out of Leadville than a -172, (or out of any other place for that matter)! Keep smiling! Konrad ----- Original Message ----- From: "John" Subject: RV-List: Furnace Creek to Leadville > --> RV-List message posted by: "John" > > I don't fully agree regarding needing all that 6,400 feet of runway at > Leadville to get off. Perhaps in a heavily loaded C-172 on a hot day, but in > my 160HP fixed pitch prop RV6A I go in and out of Leadville (pattern > altitude 10,700) with no real noticable difference than when operating from > Salida at 7,500 ft. I certainly don't need more than 1000 feet or so and I > have been in and out of Leadville perhaps 20 times. > > The only real difference I see is their coffee isn't so good ! > > FWIW John at Salida, CO > > ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 05:32:32 PM PST US From: Subject: RV-List: Engine bolts --> RV-List message posted by: I'm stuck away from the hangar for a few days and forgot to write stuff down last night. Can anyone tell me the bolt sizes (diameter and/or thread size) for the alternator bracket bolts (boss mount) and that single odd-size baffle mount bolt on the outboard backside of the #4 cylinder (Lyc O-320)? Thanks, Dave Hyde nauga@brick.net RV-4, the last 10% ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 05:35:01 PM PST US From: Doug Gray Subject: Re: RV-List: fuel float wire --> RV-List message posted by: Doug Gray I remember something about this in the 18years of Rvator I think. The tip was rather than bending it back, twist the wire leading to the eroneous bend through 180 degrees to put the bend in the correct direction. Doug Gray Wayne Pedersen wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Wayne Pedersen" > > I bent the wire of the fuel float in the wrong direction. If I bend it back > I fear that I will have weakened the wire and a potentially break. The NAPA > store says I can only buy the wire with the sender. Anybody know where I can > source just the fuel float wire by its self ? > > Thanks > > Wayne > RV 7a tanks > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 05:52:23 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: Humor - Delete Now --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton >--> RV-List message posted by: "Tom Gummo" > >T-Shirt, What T-Shirt, Where T-Shirt! >We don't need any stinking T-Shirts. > >Sorry. :-) > > >The other day, I was washing the plane when a group of people came up and >asked if they could look at the plane. They were a A&P class with their >instructor. After a couple minutes they started to leave when the >instructor said "From the look of the bug pattern on the plane, I think you >should fly higher." > >God, I love living here in the high desert of Southern Calif where one >minute after TO, I can fly as low as I can go without seeing another soul. >However, yesterday as I crested a small hill, I flew over a flock of sheep. >The slowest Rocket is fast enough to be gone before the sheep could even >react. Damn it was fun. > >Unsigned to protect the guilty. > >do not archive Man it must have been scary back in the days when you were a fighter pilot and sheep were afraid :) -- Kevin Horton If the shot is there, you just have to take it ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 06:09:19 PM PST US From: "David Schaefer" Subject: RV-List: Looking for E-Mail Address --> RV-List message posted by: "David Schaefer" I'm trying to locate an e-mail address or phone number for Ken Barto. If anyone can help me, I'd appreciate it. David Schaefer RV6-A ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 06:17:55 PM PST US From: "Austin" <6430@axion.net> Subject: RV-List: Flying days --> RV-List message posted by: "Austin" <6430@axion.net> Hi Listers, Bear with me if you can, and delete if you cannot, but after Tee Shirt debate etc., and how guys want to talk RV stuff ( which is good), and now that I am flying again, I forget that there are still guys who are just banging together the tail group. Well, this is for you. You have a long way to go, but if you keep the faith and do something almost every day, you will have many days like I had today. We had turbulence today, and low ceilings and not so good vis., but did I have a blast today. Again, I want to emphasize that if I can fly this jumping bean then ANYBODY can, and have mucho fun in the doing.... First off, I got a friend to put me through some BASIC instrument chores. I mean BASIC, because I have no gyros and am too poor to put anything else in there, ( which keeps the airplane light and very quick and silky responsive ), so we first tried procedure turns and let downs under the hood and these are so valuable drills, and I did not cheat, and did an acceptable job for a rusty old builder. Then, we tried no flap approaches in turbulence and cross wind component along with wind shear over the numbers that made me keep compensating and using more runway than I wanted, but amazingly, even after a full stop, with two guys, full tanks, warm day, wind shear, we were off in only yards to try it all over again. Another thing about my RV that amazes me is how easily the RV maintains airspeed and such a low RPM...downwind leg and slippery, and trying to slow down without flap...( for practice ), she just floats along as though she doesn't want to come down. My pal says that an RV is such a versatile little runner that you can fly out and around so many slower moving weather systems that you can make your choice to run and avoid and get back to better stuff quicker than most other airplanes.....I have to agree....what a sweet performer. I sure love my Lycoming too..with an ANR kit in the headset, I don't know if I prefer the transmission any better, but the noise and engine harmonics are much nicer to tolerate...this old Lyc, especially when throttled back in the circuit, is so quiet and smooth it almost makes you wonder if you need any power at all. I said before that I don't believe much in practicing circuits because I only wear out tires and brakes and one landing can be totally different from the last, so all I do is watch the numbers and the slope and take the lights with a grain of salt, and try to let her settle. Today though, I was thinking of the times the the instructor would cover up the airspeed for landings, I would not have liked that today however, because the wind and turbulence and shear kept me busy enough without testing the gravity Gods. I would like to try that later when I have more time. A hard habit to break, was deadstick landings with no power at all, but then again, an RV is no Cessna 120. Van's video of a very short arrival and touchdown confirms what the airplane really can do if you know her well. Turbulence ain't all that much fun, but we can't always fly on glass smooth days ..that's why my wife flys very seldom..at least with me....maybe she is telling me something..... But windy days put another factor into flying well and that should be the mission...not like I used to do..take off, gaze at the ground, be a Sunday tourist over what I could recognize and at the end of it all, hope I could pull off a good landing and drive home at landing speed with a dumb grin, thinking I had really done some aviating.. Each flight should teach something...hopefully.. As a matter of fact, one flight that I relish thinking about to this day happened about 5 years ago when flying under a 1,000 foot ceiling with the cloud base very dark and black and flat as a table top stretched as far as you could see and under that was a bright wash of sun from off the sea, bringing with it a stinging wind that was a real test for a casual flyer. Radio was no great hell, as usual, but I got through and cleared straight in and a big twin was about to join up and I fought my way down to the numbers and touched on three points and made the slickest smoothest arrival I had done in about 100 hours. When I slid back the hood, the wind about took my hair and the control stick with it, but the RV was stable and quiet as an old cow pony....and this, you training wheel doubters, in a... gasp....tail dragger..... I never fail to get a boot out of that title of a book...."Taming the tail dragger ".... This last RV effort took me 4 years of steady going and I got rusty, but it doesn't take long to get better and do the RV justice. What I need to do now, is let her have the bit and run for as long as the gas holds out...I plan some serious cross country and I'll bet the thrill will never wear off, especially if I can fly and take pictures at the same time. Also, to fly in company with another RV is wondrous....it lets you see how you must look from another seat and test your skills of maintaining exact altitude, which imparts another sense of pride. Finally, landing together and taxiing to the pumps always brings out the guys who want to ask all about RVs and wither thou art bound and from whence you came etc. and it never gets tiresome. Many good days awaiting you. The hours and expense is well spent. Austin do not archive ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 06:21:20 PM PST US From: Doug Gray Subject: Re: RV-List: Super RV's --> RV-List message posted by: Doug Gray I agree that things may not be ready just yet for the GT RV but I encourage those who are trying to keep going. There is after all a magnetic interest in GT for GA and I believe it will come. I cannot talk about the efficiency verses size but what I can say is that when I was at university in the early 70s I was hell bent on putting a turbocharger on my motor car, the selection I had to choose from were from diesel trucks and stationary engines, not very well matched to my 1.5 litre 4 banger. But look now !!! From the article in 'Sport Aviation' Mr Nearhoof may just be the person who can address the engineering issues in coming up with an efficient GT for our end of the Aviation industry. Personally I wish him the very best and look forwad to what ATP can produce. Doug Gray > >>Mr. Nearhoof of ATP informed me that they have seen as much as 290 hp from >>this engine. (Stuff Cut) >> >>Wayne > You might want to get some real data from an independent source on this one. > In their recent article, they claim 10,000' in 11 minutes. > > I can do better than that with 140 hp. 17,500' in around 15 minutes. The > first 10,000' is the easy part. > > Jim Ayers ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 07:00:44 PM PST US From: Michael McGee Subject: Re: RV-List: Furnace Creek to Leadville --> RV-List message posted by: Michael McGee At 19:19 2003-05-12 -0700, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club" > > >John wrote: > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "John" > > > > I don't fully agree regarding needing all that 6,400 feet of runway at > > Leadville to get off. Perhaps in a heavily loaded C-172 on a hot day, > but in > > my 160HP fixed pitch prop RV6A I go in and out of Leadville (pattern > > altitude 10,700) with no real noticable difference than when operating from > > Salida at 7,500 ft. I certainly don't need more than 1000 feet or so and I > > have been in and out of Leadville perhaps 20 times. > > > > The only real difference I see is their coffee isn't so good ! > > > > FWIW John at Salida, CO > > > > _ > >Do not archive > >I just wonder if the coffee water ever boils... It boils alright. It's just that the water's luke warm when you're trying to make coffee. Mike McGee, RV-4 N996RV, O320-E2G, Hillsboro, OR 13B in gestation mode ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 07:06:44 PM PST US From: mstewart@qa.butler.com Subject: RE: RV-List: Dynon Update Report tests=AWL,NO_REAL_NAME,ORIGINAL_MESSAGE,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=ham version=2.53 --> RV-List message posted by: mstewart@qa.butler.com Randy I'm with you on the TAS. Dynon. Listen up! I like my RMI unit cause I have it set to display TAS always. Its the number I fly to and tells me how Im doing realitive to other trips. I can nail a TAS and fuel flow, and EGT every time. Lets me know my plane is doing what it is supposed to. do not archive Mike Stewart -----Original Message----- From: Randy Lervold [mailto:randy@rv-8.com] Subject: Re: RV-List: Dynon Update Report --> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Lervold" > The one thing I miss on it though is TAS. It would be really nice to have > the scroll scale read in IAS with the digital readout displaying TAS. Hint > hint. A temp sensor in the magnetometer would allow for this. Wheeler, Once you've lived with real time TAS you don't want to be without it. That is precisely why I'm not upgrading to a D10 at this time. My Aircraft Instruments Air Data Computer (ADC) has it and I love it. (picure at http://www.aircraftinstruments.com/adc_features.htm). Glance at the TAS and at the GPS groundspeed and you immediately know what's going on with the winds. As you point out, TAS would require an OAT sensor. I encouraged Dynon last summer at Arlington to add this feature to no avail. To those that agree this is an important feature, please make your opinion known to Dynon. Randy Lervold RV-8, 307 hrs. www.rv-8.com Home Wing - Van's Air Force ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 07:14:21 PM PST US From: "RV6 Flyer" Subject: Re: RV-List: Hot to Cool Flight --> RV-List message posted by: "RV6 Flyer" Paul Rosales and I have done that and took off in formation at both airports. Was not a non-stop flight and it did not occur in the same month. Density Altitude at Leadville was over 14,000 when we were there. Gary A. Sobek "My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell, 1,274 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA http://SoCAL_WVAF.rvproject.com ----Original Message Follows---- From: Wheeler North Subject: RV-List: Hot to Cool Flight --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North Hey, has anybody ever done a flight from Furnace Creek CA to Leadville CO? Roughly 534NM with a change in altitude of 10137' Seems like it would be great fun to give it a go. do not archive ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 07:21:08 PM PST US From: "Elsa & Henry" Subject: Re: RV-List: Looking for E-Mail Address --> RV-List message posted by: "Elsa & Henry" Don't have his e-mail address, but I bought my tow-bar from him a few years ago and his phone No. then was 315-622-2072 Cheers!!-----Henry Hore ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 07:30:41 PM PST US From: Finn Lassen Subject: Re: RV-List: Super RV's --> RV-List message posted by: Finn Lassen I'm the wrong person to ask. I don't fly jets or turbo props. I think you have to get up in the high twenties. Low air resistance (drag) yet can deliver full power. There's nothing wrong with wanting to put one of these units in an RV, as long as you realize you're probably going to double your fuel consumption. Heck, I've even played with the idea of putting on in my RV-3. The lesser weight should give an even more spectacular climb rate. But to get 200 HP you are looking at a fuel flow of 30 GPH or more! Either ATP are outright lying or their dyno is off by a factor of two. Their numbers simply do not add up. An RV-4 should be flying well in excess of 200 mph with 200 HP. I still recommend the article in the June issue of Kitplanes. Numbers quoted there make a lot more sense. Finn Canyon wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Canyon > >Finn Lassen wrote: > > >>Ask them about fuel flow vs. horse power at >>sea level and at what altitude jets start to become fuel efficient. >> >> >--- > >OK -- I'll bite. :-) > >At what altitude? And how about some of the older mil surplus small >pure jets -- worth fooling with or overhauling? Of course that would >be a tough surgery placing that in an RV but Quixote might enjoy it. > >Steve > > > > ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 07:30:41 PM PST US From: "Tom Gummo" Subject: Re: RV-List: Humor - Delete Now --> RV-List message posted by: "Tom Gummo" do not archive Kevin, I got to learn about low level flying while assigned to Turkey in the earily 70's. If there were any rules, there wasn't anybody to report them (or telephones to call the base). We just flew as low as we wanted. Of course, a four-ship of F-4s would scare the sh*t out of the sheep. It was a great learning experience. I started at about 500 agl (my comfort level) and slowly worked my way down to 100 feet (Air Force minimum). I might have broken that rule a couple of times but 100 feet at 480 knots GS is fun enough. I was and am still married to a great lady so the sheep didn't have anything to fear from me in other ways. :-) Looking forward to your next visit to Southern Calif. This time a rocket ride will be available. Tom Keep pounding those rivets, you can't believe how much fun flying a baby fighter plane, i.e., an RV is. > > Man it must have been scary back in the days when you were a fighter > pilot and sheep were afraid :) > -- > Kevin Horton > If the shot is there, you just have to take it > > ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 07:50:07 PM PST US From: "Rob W M Shipley" Subject: RV-List: Yaesu handheld nav/com --> RV-List message posted by: "Rob W M Shipley" My many thanks to all who offered suggestions when I asked for help a few weeks ago when trying to identify the TX problem with my handheld. I'm ashamed to admit that I don't remember who suggested that the battery pack, (original 3 yr old NiCad), might be the problem. This was right on the money! I used fresh alkalines in the back up power pack and checked the TX function against a couple of handhelds and a panel mount whilst down at SEE this weekend and got a nice nice clear signal. I've been roaming the web, (Google), looking for a new power pack and found good prices from the NiCad Lady and Sabah Oceanics. Any input on these sources or suggestions for other vendors will be appreciated. Thanks to all who responded. Fly safe. Rob Rob W M Shipley RV9A N919RV Fuselage - now a canoe!!! ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:42 PM PST US From: Jaye and Scott Jackson Subject: Re: RV-List: Super RV's --> RV-List message posted by: Jaye and Scott Jackson > I think you have to get up in the high twenties. Low air resistance > (drag) yet can deliver full power. > Actually, it's a bit of both. Jet engines aren't supercharged, and their power falls off with altitude too, but it still is a lot greater power than a piston's for a given altitude. So the only savings is, as you stated, at a high altitude where the draw is the almost doubling of true airspeed for a given indicated airspeed. Another factor is that the higher RPM the jet has to turn to produce the required thrust at high altitude puts it into a turbine's lowest SFC operating condition. this is determined during design as that's where the engine will spend most of its operating life, and determine the range perfromance and subsequent success of the individual airplane. The turbine uses a lot of fuel to get up there, but, becomes quite fuel-efficient once it's there. Imagine flying a single-engine jet trainer and using over 60% of your fuel getting to cruising altitude, then being able to continue all the way to destination on the remaining fuel. No wonder turbine drivers bitch about being held down on departure and being forced down too soon on descent. So, despite the siren call of turbine power for my RV, there's a lot of drawbacks. Turbine pilots pretty well have to have their very own oil well out in the backyard. They are shackled with an airframe that has to carry a lot more fuel to accomplish the same trip as a piston aircraft; whether that's a safety concern is up to the individual. The engines are subsceptible to inlet design and sensitive to throttle changes in crosswinds, which can stall the inlet. They don't respond instantly to acceleration commands; unlike just pouring more avgas into the cylinders to keep the exhaust valves from melting, the turbine can only feed in enough jet fuel to accelerate while not overtemping the turbine blades. This has to be kept in mind on approach in varying wind speeds, where the lag can cause one to get really slow at worst, and out-of-step with the power commands at best.They can't breath filtered air , and this can seriously erode the blade leading edges, reducing the little airfoils' efficiency, and wearing away the clearance between the tip of the blades and the outer casing of the engine, reducing the efficiency of individual compression stages. Pure turbines-as opposed to turboprops- don't impart any benefit to the airframe caused by propellor slipstream across the wing and over the elevator and rudder on the tail. NO instant increase in lift by opening the throttle. The higher altitude, despite being smooth and above most convective activity, is no friend to the turbine either. The high rotational speed of the turbine blades coupled with the thinner air leads to problems with reduced stall margins on these tiny airfoils. So, now we have two potential stallls we have to manage- the wing's and the engine's. And if your wife doesn't mind arriving at destination with a bright, red circle around her mounth and nose from the mask, and did I mention oxygen ear? Having said all this, if it weren't for too many children, and being dumb enough to saddle myself with a crushing mortgage, I, too, would have trouble resisting the scent of Chanel JP4 instead of 100LowLife, and an airframe that goes zoom-zoom while the engine goes hum, as opposed to kapocketa-kapocketa.... Scott in Vancouver -6, 60 hours turbines-16000 hours > > ________________________________ Message 57 ____________________________________ Time: 08:38:33 PM PST US From: Vanremog@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Email Address --> RV-List message posted by: Vanremog@aol.com In a message dated 5/12/2003 11:01:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time, rv4bell@door.net writes: > Anyone on the list know Bruce Cruikshank's current email address? He can be reached thru KS avionics. Contact info is in the Yeller Pages. -GV (RV-6A N1GV 602hrs) "The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."---George Bernard Shaw ________________________________ Message 58 ____________________________________ Time: 08:43:35 PM PST US From: "Alex Peterson" Subject: RV-List: C/S prop spitting oil --> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" My apologies for asking an RV related question on the RV list (really - if you are into t-shirts, etc., delete now). My C/S prop (300 hours since new) has recently, but not consistently, spit tiny oil droplets onto the passenger side windscreen. There is evidence that this oil is coming from the root of one of the blades (little streaks on the first 6 inches or so of blade). This happened during the first 10 or 15 hours when the prop was new, and then went away for a year and a half until at about 280 hours. Now, in about half of the last 10 flights, there has been some mist on the right windscreen. I would guess the entire amount of oil isn't even one drop yet. I can imagine the seal at the blade root needs replacement, but can anyone explain the sporadic nature of this? Air in the system? Flight conditions are similar in each case, nothing unusual there. Thanks, Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN RV6-A N66AP 297 hours www.rvforum.org MAY 31st!!! Come one, come all!!! www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson ________________________________ Message 59 ____________________________________ Time: 08:57:01 PM PST US From: "Alex Peterson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Supporting the other ends of our gyros --> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" > > Fellow listers, > > What are you doing (have you done) to support the forward > (back) ends of your long gyros? > > A couple of mine will go through the next forward bulkhead so > I can probably rivet on a piece of angle and clamp the gyro > to that. One (AI) is too short but is right on top of > another (HSI) that goes through the next forward bulkhead - I > was thinking of making up a spacer to put those two together > and clamp them together using the support on the one that > goes all the way through to hold both. Another of mine > (S-Tec30 TC/AP) is also too short and is not close enough to > another one to "lean" on. > > Your thoughts please, I put some foam between instruments which were long (AH and HSI), just in case they think about bumping. I agree with an earlier post though, I wouldn't support them directly except at the panel. If the panel is too floppy, I would be inclined to attach stiffeners to the panel. Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN RV6-A N66AP 297 hours www.rvforum.org MAY 31st!! www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson ________________________________ Message 60 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:58 PM PST US From: Vanremog@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Looking for E-Mail Address --> RV-List message posted by: Vanremog@aol.com In a message dated 5/12/2003 6:11:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time, dschaefer1@kc.rr.com writes: > I'm trying to locate an e-mail address or phone number for Ken Barto. > If anyone can help me, I'd appreciate it. > The Yeller Pages has him listed. -GV (RV-6A N1GV 602hrs) ________________________________ Message 61 ____________________________________ Time: 09:04:31 PM PST US From: "Randall Henderson" Subject: RV-List: Twelfth Annual Homewing RV Fly-In --> RV-List message posted by: "Randall Henderson" Mark your calendars! The Twelfth Annual Home Wing RV Fly-In is coming up, Saturday June 14 at Scappoose, OR Airport (56S). Check out the web page www.vanshomewing.org for all the details (including a sneak preview of this year's T-shirt art.) See you there! ________________________________ Message 62 ____________________________________ Time: 09:44:42 PM PST US From: "Tim Lewis" owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com Subject: Re: RV-List: C/S prop spitting oil --> RV-List message posted by: "Tim Lewis" I had the same problem at about 350 hrs TTSN. Turned out to be a grease leak at the joint where the two halves of the prop hub come together. Verified it by sparying dye penetrant "developer" (the white powder) in the area... it turns dark where the leak is. I ended up sending the prop to Hartzel for overhaul (which go me the new hub that doesn't have the AD against it). I've heard of this problem more than once on fairly new Hartzell CS props. I'm not impressed with this aspect of their product. Tim From: "Alex Peterson" Subject: RV-List: C/S prop spitting oil Date sent: Mon, 12 May 2003 22:43:06 -0500 Send reply to: rv-list@matronics.com > --> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" > > My apologies for asking an RV related question on the RV list (really - > if you are into t-shirts, etc., delete now). > > My C/S prop (300 hours since new) has recently, but not consistently, > spit tiny oil droplets onto the passenger side windscreen. There is > evidence that this oil is coming from the root of one of the blades > (little streaks on the first 6 inches or so of blade). This happened > during the first 10 or 15 hours when the prop was new, and then went > away for a year and a half until at about 280 hours. Now, in about half > of the last 10 flights, there has been some mist on the right > windscreen. I would guess the entire amount of oil isn't even one drop > yet. I can imagine the seal at the blade root needs replacement, but can > anyone explain the sporadic nature of this? Air in the system? Flight > conditions are similar in each case, nothing unusual there. > > Thanks, > > Alex Peterson > Maple Grove, MN > RV6-A N66AP 297 hours > www.rvforum.org MAY 31st!!! Come one, come all!!! > > www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson > > > > > > ****** Tim Lewis -- HEF (Manassas, VA) RV-6A N47TD - First Flight 18 Dec 99 http://www.geocities.com/timrv6a ******