---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 05/28/03: 45 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:29 AM - Re: TEL/compression ratios (Gordon or Marge Comfort) 2. 05:35 AM - Re: TEL (Alex Peterson) 3. 05:39 AM - Re: RV-8 canopy (DAVAWALKER@aol.com) 4. 05:40 AM - Engine Painting (Edward O'Connor) 5. 06:04 AM - Re: Engine Painting (Sam Buchanan) 6. 06:14 AM - Re: RV-List Digest: 42 Msgs - 05/27/03 (Frazier, Vincent A) 7. 06:39 AM - Re: Engine Painting (Joe Hine) 8. 07:17 AM - Re: TEL (Tedd McHenry) 9. 07:22 AM - Re: Painting question for the group (P M Condon) 10. 08:11 AM - (Al Grajek) 11. 08:19 AM - Re: Re: Painting question for the group (Scott Bilinski) 12. 08:47 AM - Re: wiring question (Scott Brumbelow) 13. 09:27 AM - Re: (Rob Miller) 14. 09:59 AM - Re: RV-8 canopy (czechsix@juno.com) 15. 10:19 AM - Re: RV-8 canopy (Bruce Gray) 16. 11:04 AM - Re: RV-8 canopy (Dr. Kevin P. Leathers) 17. 12:27 PM - Re: RV-8 canopy (Greg Young) 18. 12:49 PM - Re: RV-8 canopy (Bruce Gray) 19. 12:50 PM - Re: Engine Painting (Doug Weiler) 20. 12:50 PM - Elevator/rudder cracks (Doug Weiler) 21. 12:50 PM - ferrite beads (Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club) 22. 01:00 PM - "Out of the mouths of babes" (Jerry2DT@aol.com) 23. 01:04 PM - Re: [VAF Mailing List] Garmin 196 (Bill VonDane) 24. 02:06 PM - Re: RV-8 canopy (Konrad Werner) 25. 02:09 PM - Re: "Out of the mouths of babes" (John Starn) 26. 02:34 PM - Engine Pickling (Jerry2DT@aol.com) 27. 03:08 PM - Re: (Jim Cimino) 28. 03:15 PM - Re: Engine Pickling (Gert) 29. 03:21 PM - Navaid Auto Pilot for sale. (Garry LeGare) 30. 03:55 PM - Re: "Out of the mouths of babes" (david just david) 31. 04:23 PM - New RV-10 Photo's on Van's web site! (Bob Hassel) 32. 04:44 PM - Plane FUN (Tom Gummo) 33. 04:53 PM - Re: Elevator/rudder cracks (Alex Peterson) 34. 05:43 PM - Re: Elevator/rudder cracks (Norman) 35. 05:44 PM - Re: RV-List Digest: 42 Msgs - 05/27/03 (Wheeler North) 36. 06:01 PM - Re: RV-List Digest: 42 Msgs - 05/27/03 (Wheeler North) 37. 06:08 PM - Re: Elevator/rudder cracks (Alex Peterson) 38. 06:55 PM - Re: Elevator/rudder cracks (Doug Weiler) 39. 06:59 PM - Re: Elevator/rudder cracks (Doug Rozendaal) 40. 07:29 PM - Re: Engine Pickling (Dave Bristol) 41. 07:40 PM - Prop governor drive (Gert) 42. 08:16 PM - Re: Engine Pickling (Charlie & Tupper England) 43. 08:19 PM - Re: Prop governor drive (Mike Stephenson) 44. 09:23 PM - unsubscibe (ACEACORN@aol.com) 45. 10:14 PM - RV4 built by Wiley Harrington?? (kempthornes) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:29:18 AM PST US From: "Gordon or Marge Comfort" Subject: Re: RV-List: TEL/compression ratios --> RV-List message posted by: "Gordon or Marge Comfort" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tedd McHenry" Subject: RE: RV-List: TEL > --> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry > > > 1. Don't cars have about the same compression ratios or even higher than the > > aircraft engines we use? There may be other factors to consider. The effective CR is often lower than the numerical ratio. The increasing use of variable valve timing, variable intake lengths and particularly the timing of valve events with large overlap can result in compression pressures that resemble lower CR numbers, especially in part throttle operations. Lycoming engines, with their low working rpms and high relative power settings have conservative valve timing and are apt to produce high pressures. When the auto engine control modules can respond to detonation by changing ignition timing for those times when compression pressures are high, lower anti-knock numbers in the fuel are tolerable. I believe that aircooled engines are mechanically noisier and the type of noise makes it harder to sense and discriminate between that noise and combustion detonation. It is probably doable but as a practical matter, not so far. Gordon Comfort N363GC ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:35:02 AM PST US From: "Alex Peterson" Subject: RE: RV-List: TEL --> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" > > --> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry > > > 1. Don't cars have about the same compression ratios or even higher > > than the aircraft engines we use? > > Yes, and they'd be even higher except for the emission > regulations. Hal is right, combustion chamber design makes > auto engines significantly more resistant to detonation. > Liquid cooling also helps. > > When you run 100LL in an auto engine you can run 10.5:1 > compression (or even higher depending on the engine) and > ignition advance up to nearly 40 degrees. > > > 7. Why are aircraft engines too noisy for anti-knock > sensors? It's not > > just the lack of a muffler and prop noise, is it? > > I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if air cooling is a > problem there, too. Aircraft engines are a lot less rigid > than auto engines, so they probably "sing" at lower frequencies. > Those auto engines wouldn't do too well if their jugs were 5" to 6" in diameter, and they were run at full throttle while at 2700 rpm when the car was in overdrive while going uphill enough to keep the car from accelerating. That would be apples to apples, sort of. Try that with your manual transmission car sometime, and listen to the knocking. Then do it for ten minutes straight. Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN RV6-A N66AP 308 hours www.rvforum.org www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:39:33 AM PST US From: DAVAWALKER@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: RV-8 canopy --> RV-List message posted by: DAVAWALKER@aol.com What are Piper washers? D. Walker RV7 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:40:45 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Engine Painting From: "Edward O'Connor" --> RV-List message posted by: "Edward O'Connor" I will be building up my XP 360 soon and in reading the Lyc overhaul manual, there is a section on painting the engine. Pretty complicated from reading it and lots of thinners and types of paints I had not considered.It specifies the use of "Toluene" thinner and "Phtalate Resin type enamel". Never heard of these. It specifies this for both the case and cylinders. Can anyone who has painted their engine provide any advice on what is required and how did you go about painting it. I have the Sky Ranch engine book and am about to read it. The enging has also been zygloed or it looks like it. Thanks Ed O'Connor/RV-8/Panama City Fl ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:26 AM PST US From: Sam Buchanan Subject: Re: RV-List: Engine Painting --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan Edward O'Connor wrote: > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Edward O'Connor" > > I will be building up my XP 360 soon and in reading the Lyc overhaul manual, > there is a section on painting the engine. Pretty complicated from reading > it and lots of thinners and types of paints I had not considered.It > specifies the use of "Toluene" thinner and "Phtalate Resin type enamel". > Never heard of these. It specifies this for both the case and cylinders. > Can anyone who has painted their engine provide any advice on what is > required and how did you go about painting it. I have the Sky Ranch engine > book and am about to read it. The enging has also been zygloed or it looks > like it. Thanks > Ed O'Connor/RV-8/Panama City Fl I found PlastiCoat (sp?) engine enamel in aerosol cans to be very durable on my engine. It is available at many auto parts stores. A couple of cans was plenty to spray the case and accessories with 2-3 coats. The Millennium cylinders were left as delivered. http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/journal/overhaul.htm Sam Buchanan ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:14:42 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: RE: RV-List Digest: 42 Msgs - 05/27/03 From: "Frazier, Vincent A" --> RV-List message posted by: "Frazier, Vincent A" SNIP I have been working on the canopy for my RV-8A, and find a condition that disturbs me. When I cut the wind screen section from the body of the canopy, I found that the thickness of part of the windscreen was less than 0.1 inch. This seems to me a bit on the flimsy side for a plane that has a Vne of 230 mph. The stock canopy is blown from 3/16 in. thick material, and understandably it thins as it forms into shape. There are a lot of these canopies in service, and as far as I know none have failed. However, I am now converting to a windscreen made from 1/4 in. material by Todd Silver. Todd has been an alternate source for canopies for many RV builders and has all the required tooling. He can be reached at if you wish to inquire. I would like to know if there are others that share my concern and action they have taken. Ray SNIP I have a 1/4" bubble from Todd for my Rocket. I wanted a slightly custom shape (taller and longer) and Todd handled it nicely. But the main reason I wanted a thicker canopy is to give a little extra strength against all of the $%&*ing birds that go whizzing past at 230mph! One caveat... the 1/4" is noticably heavier. OTOH, it is noticably sturdier too. Vince in Indiana Rocket, plumbing time. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:28 AM PST US From: "Joe Hine" Subject: RE: RV-List: Engine Painting --> RV-List message posted by: "Joe Hine" Alex I just painted my case and accessorys with the same paint I painted the airplane with. An Acrylic enamal. No problems so far (200 hrs). I painted the cylinders with black engine paint from rattle cans. Joe Hine RV4 C-FYTQ -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Edward O'Connor Subject: RV-List: Engine Painting --> RV-List message posted by: "Edward O'Connor" I will be building up my XP 360 soon and in reading the Lyc overhaul manual, there is a section on painting the engine. Pretty complicated from reading it and lots of thinners and types of paints I had not considered.It specifies the use of "Toluene" thinner and "Phtalate Resin type enamel". Never heard of these. It specifies this for both the case and cylinders. Can anyone who has painted their engine provide any advice on what is required and how did you go about painting it. I have the Sky Ranch engine book and am about to read it. The enging has also been zygloed or it looks like it. Thanks Ed O'Connor/RV-8/Panama City Fl ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:17:44 AM PST US From: Tedd McHenry Subject: RE: RV-List: TEL --> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry > That would be apples to apples, sort of. It's not really an apples-to-apples comparison. An auto engine typically has a much shorter stroke, giving it lower piston speeds at a given RPM. For an apples-to-apples comparison, you'd want the same BMEP AND piston speed. That would come from running your auto engine at WOT and something like 3500-4000 RPM, exactly as a typical auto conversion does. Then you'd find the auto engine easily as happy as a Lycoming (slightly happier, actually, because of the stiffer block, crankshaft, and rods). Let's make an apples-to-apples comparison between your O-360 and the engine in my 2003 Subaru (which happens to be the same engine Eggenfellner converts for aircraft use). To match the conditions the Lycoming experiences at 2700 RPM and WOT I'd have to run the Subaru at 3800 RPM and WOT. Not a problem and, in fact, 3800 RPM is the low cruise RPM that Eggenfellner recommends. However, I HAVE run my Subaru at 2700 RPM and WOT, and it was perfectly happy. The equivalent to that for the O-360 would be 1920 RPM and WOT. Perhaps one of the auto engine skeptics on this list would like to try that for a while on his Lycoming and report back to us with the results? Tedd McHenry Surrey, BC ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:22:18 AM PST US From: P M Condon Subject: RV-List: Re: Painting question for the group --> RV-List message posted by: P M Condon Right under my nose was a 10 month continuing article series in the EAA Sport Aviation Mag. by Ron Alexander on painting your airplane. I've painted cars in high school and did the body work thing so I am no stranger...then again I am not a professional either (Didn't stay in a Holiday Express either) Randolph and Poly Fiber offer a urethane paint process that a charcoal mask is the only breathing requirement, so I am looking into those processes. The new water/cross link systems from Poly Fiber are lung friendly also. I want to research the sanding, blending & polishing aspects of these products, and of course, the long term result and wearability of the top coat of paint. Everyone seems to be shooting the polyurethane paint processes, so I can't argue with success here. Does anyone have any input on the newer Poly Fiber paint processes ?? ............................................................................ Any of the paints (Imron, Catalyzed Centari, Concept, etc.) that use a catalyst *can* be deadly. The catalyst is the "big nasty". I am unaware of any high quality paint that isn't a laquer or enamel which doesn't require forced air respiration. If you do find a suitable paint that fits your criteria, please follow-up to the list with the product name and supplier(s), and then with progress reports as you go through the painting process. Personally, I found the painting process (with the breather, chem-suit, everlasting solvent fumes, etc) the worst of the worst as far as the building process was concerned. KB ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:11:17 AM PST US From: "Al Grajek" tomscherder@hotmail.com, vansairforce@yahoogroups.com --> RV-List message posted by: "Al Grajek" Listers: I am trying to decide the best way to route the wiring from the engie instruments to the firewall in An RV8. With the location of the baggage compartment, it seems you may have to go under it or run a conduit thru it? Also what is the best way to route the pitot and static lines. I am up to the panel, but not sure how to get the lines behind the panel unless I just run the under it, bnut they will just be hanging there? ANy suggetsions. Thanks. Al Grajek ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:19:14 AM PST US From: Scott Bilinski Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Painting question for the group --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski I called Cardinal paint and asked to talk to their safety engineer. I told him I wanted to spray Polyurethane with charcoal mask/respirator only. I explained my paint booth will have flowing air in and out and I would be painting about 1.5 gallons over a 2 month period. I could hear him looking through papers and he then told me a quality respirator is all that would be needed. Since then I have talked with several paint shops and they do not use forced air respirators with polyurethane. At 10:27 AM 5/28/03 -0400, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: P M Condon > >Right under my nose was a 10 month continuing article series in the EAA >Sport Aviation Mag. by Ron Alexander on painting your airplane. I've >painted cars in high school and did the body work thing so I am no >stranger...then again I am not a professional either (Didn't stay in a >Holiday Express either) > >Randolph and Poly Fiber offer a urethane paint process that a charcoal >mask is the only breathing requirement, so I am looking into those >processes. The new water/cross link systems from Poly Fiber are lung >friendly also. I want to research the sanding, blending & polishing >aspects of these products, and of course, the long term result and >wearability of the top coat of paint. > >Everyone seems to be shooting the polyurethane paint processes, so I >can't argue with success here. Does anyone have any input on the newer >Poly Fiber paint processes ?? > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:47:38 AM PST US From: Scott Brumbelow Subject: RV-List: Re: wiring question --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Brumbelow Al - I actually have two firewall holes for wiring for my -8A. I used Van's wiring harness kit, and per guidelines from that have one on the right side (pilot's perspective) just UNDER the angle piece on the inside of the baggage compartment. I MAY at some point decide to build up more protection for this bundle (other than simply running it under that angle). My battery is firewall mounted, and this hole is primarily for battery/master/alternater/etc. wiring. I have a similarly located hole in the other side for my EI gauge wiring, magnetos, oil pressure, fuel pressure, etc. This one is again right at the side, but is UNDER the baggage compartment floor as you mention. My static line was run on the right side (again, pilot's perspective) through the instrument panel via the hole for my headset wiring (which is at the far right lower corner), then through the bulkheads close to the top rail of the fuselage (the one that the canopy rail rests on). In this location no additional support was required and the only part you really see (and you have to really look for it) is where all of this goes through the lower right corner of the instrument panel. I have not routed my pitot line from the wing to the fus (which I won't be doing until the fus joins the wings for good at the airport) so I cannot advise on that. FWIW, though I certainly made some changes, I found the wiring harness kit from Van's to be a HUGE timesaver as a starting point. Hope this helps! Scott in MEM RV-8A baffles, FAB to go... Al Grajek wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Al Grajek" > > Listers: > I am trying to decide the best way to route the wiring from the engie > instruments to the firewall in An RV8. With the location of the baggage > compartment, it seems you may have to go under it or run a conduit thru it? > Also what is the best way to route the pitot and static lines. I am up to > the panel, but not sure how to get the lines behind the panel unless I just > run the under it, bnut they will just be hanging there? ANy suggetsions. > Thanks. > Al Grajek > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:27:21 AM PST US From: Rob Miller Subject: RV-List: Re: --> RV-List message posted by: Rob Miller Al I converted the vertical section of the fwd baggage compartment to a battery/electrical hub. Battery, Voltage Regulator, Battery Contactor, and fuse box are all contained within this area. (Slots were cut to vent this box on the top and inside). All of the "Bad Cat's" electrical runs through here. This set-up has worked out well so far. Rob Miller -8 N262RM "Bad Cat" --- Al Grajek wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Al Grajek" > > Listers: > I am trying to decide the best way to route the wiring from the engie > instruments to the firewall in An RV8. With the location of the baggage > compartment, it seems you may have to go under it or run a conduit thru > it? > Also what is the best way to route the pitot and static lines. I am up > to > the panel, but not sure how to get the lines behind the panel unless I > just > run the under it, bnut they will just be hanging there? ANy suggetsions. > Thanks. > Al Grajek > > > > > > __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:59:24 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: RV-8 canopy From: czechsix@juno.com --> RV-List message posted by: czechsix@juno.com Ray, I agree with you wholeheartedly and went the exact same route...I organized a group buy from Todd Silver for RV-8 canopies a while back, and for my trouble Todd sent me two canopies for the price of one--one was 3/16" and the other 1/4" (actually the 1/4" one had a defect in it, but it was in the aft part of the canopy where it didn't matter since I only needed the windscreen...so it worked out well for both of us). Anyway I didn't want to use 1/4" for the whole canopy because it adds about 5 lbs and most of it doesn't do you any good--in fact it could do you harm in the event that you need to break out of it. So I fit the 3/16" canopy first, then set aside the windscreen and cut a new one from the 1/4" plexi. I haven't actually measured the difference, but was surprised how much beefier the 1/4" one is. You can set the two windscreens side-by-side on the workbench and stand on the other side of the garage and clearly see the difference in thickness by looking at the edges, and most importantly, when you pick them up the 1/4" is noticeably more rigid and solid-feeling whereas the 3/16" one is quite flimsy by comparison. I was concerned about birdstrikes after seeing pictures of what happend to two RV-6's that had birds come through the canopy. The 1/4" thickness will undoubtedly offer more protection, not only in resistance to breakage, but even if the bird still comes through it will dissipate more energy before hitting me in the face. I also have a fighter helmet with visor, although I don't know if it will be comfortable enough to wear all the time and particularly in the summer when it's hot (and the birds are all flying : ). If I can wear it and still enjoy flying with it, I fully intend to do so. It offers some bird strike and crash protection benefits. I'm not paranoid--just taking what I consider reasonable and easy precautions to increase the margin of safety. FWIW, I think a bird strike in the face of an RV pilot could easily be fatal....perhaps not the actual impact, but the ensuing accident that would result from the pilot's inability to fly the aircraft with feathers, blood, and plexi embedded in his/her face, not to mention the wind blast, shock and disorientation. In one respect the guys in the side-by-side RV's are a little better off if the bird only takes out one side of the windscreen, they can shift to the other side of the cockpit and get some protection from the wind. Whereas the tandem drivers would not have any protection from the breeze, and if you could still see anything your only hope would be pulling power all the way back and maybe slipping it a bit... --Mark Navratil Cedar Rapids, Iowa RV-8A N2D prepping for paint... Time: 04:38:00 AM PST US From: Parker43rp@aol.com Subject: RV-List: RV-8 canopy --> RV-List message posted by: Parker43rp@aol.com Listers: I have been working on the canopy for my RV-8A, and find a condition that disturbs me. When I cut the wind screen section from the body of the canopy, I found that the thickness of part of the windscreen was less than 0.1 inch. This seems to me a bit on the flimsy side for a plane that has a Vne of 230 mph. The stock canopy is blown from 3/16 in. thick material, and understandably it thins as it forms into shape. There are a lot of these canopies in service, and as far as I know none have failed. However, I am now converting to a windscreen made from 1/4 in. material by Todd Silver. Todd has been an alternate source for canopies for many RV builders and has all the required tooling. He can be reached at if you wish to inquire. I would like to know if there are others that share my concern and action they have taken. Ray The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:19:35 AM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: RV-List: RV-8 canopy --> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" Bird strikes are a serious concern for all of us. I'm glad the plexi windshield in my Glasair III is 1/2 inch thick. Of course, the low altitude cruise speed of a GIII is 240 KTAS. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of czechsix@juno.com Subject: Re: RV-List: RV-8 canopy --> RV-List message posted by: czechsix@juno.com Ray, I agree with you wholeheartedly and went the exact same route...I organized a group buy from Todd Silver for RV-8 canopies a while back, and for my trouble Todd sent me two canopies for the price of one--one was 3/16" and the other 1/4" (actually the 1/4" one had a defect in it, but it was in the aft part of the canopy where it didn't matter since I only needed the windscreen...so it worked out well for both of us). Anyway I didn't want to use 1/4" for the whole canopy because it adds about 5 lbs and most of it doesn't do you any good--in fact it could do you harm in the event that you need to break out of it. So I fit the 3/16" canopy first, then set aside the windscreen and cut a new one from the 1/4" plexi. I haven't actually measured the difference, but was surprised how much beefier the 1/4" one is. You can set the two windscreens side-by-side on the workbench and stand on the other side of the garage and clearly see the difference in thickness by looking at the edg! es, and most importantly, when you pick them up the 1/4" is noticeably more rigid and solid-feeling whereas the 3/16" one is quite flimsy by comparison. I was concerned about birdstrikes after seeing pictures of what happend to two RV-6's that had birds come through the canopy. The 1/4" thickness will undoubtedly offer more protection, not only in resistance to breakage, but even if the bird still comes through it will dissipate more energy before hitting me in the face. I also have a fighter helmet with visor, although I don't know if it will be comfortable enough to wear all the time and particularly in the summer when it's hot (and the birds are all flying : ). If I can wear it and still enjoy flying with it, I fully intend to do so. It offers some bird strike and crash protection benefits. I'm not paranoid--just taking what I consider reasonable and easy precautions to increase the margin of safety. FWIW, I think a bird strike in the face of an RV pilot could easily be fatal....perhaps not the actual impact, but the ensuing accident that would result from the pilot's inability to fly the aircraft with feathers, blo! od, and plexi embedded in his/her face, not to mention the wind blast, shock and disorientation. In one respect the guys in the side-by-side RV's are a little better off if the bird only takes out one side of the windscreen, they can shift to the other side of the cockpit and get some protection from the wind. Whereas the tandem drivers would not have any protection from the breeze, and if you could still see anything your only hope would be pulling power all the way back and maybe slipping it a bit... --Mark Navratil Cedar Rapids, Iowa RV-8A N2D prepping for paint... Time: 04:38:00 AM PST US From: Parker43rp@aol.com Subject: RV-List: RV-8 canopy --> RV-List message posted by: Parker43rp@aol.com Listers: I have been working on the canopy for my RV-8A, and find a condition that disturbs me. When I cut the wind screen section from the body of the canopy, I found that the thickness of part of the windscreen was less than 0.1 inch. This seems to me a bit on the flimsy side for a plane that has a Vne of 230 mph. The stock canopy is blown from 3/16 in. thick material, and understandably it thins as it forms into shape. There are a lot of these canopies in service, and as far as I know none have failed. However, I am now converting to a windscreen made from 1/4 in. material by Todd Silver. Todd has been an alternate source for canopies for many RV builders and has all the required tooling. He can be reached at if you wish to inquire. I would like to know if there are others that share my concern and action they have taken. Ray The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:04:33 AM PST US From: "Dr. Kevin P. Leathers" Subject: Re: RV-List: RV-8 canopy --> RV-List message posted by: "Dr. Kevin P. Leathers" Are those plastic birds really that fast?? DOC DNA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: RV-List: RV-8 canopy > --> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" > > Bird strikes are a serious concern for all of us. I'm glad the plexi > windshield in my Glasair III is 1/2 inch thick. Of course, the low > altitude cruise speed of a GIII is 240 KTAS. > > Bruce > www.glasair.org > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > czechsix@juno.com > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: RV-8 canopy > > > --> RV-List message posted by: czechsix@juno.com > > > Ray, > > I agree with you wholeheartedly and went the exact same route...I > organized a group buy from Todd Silver for RV-8 canopies a while back, > and for my trouble Todd sent me two canopies for the price of one--one > was 3/16" and the other 1/4" (actually the 1/4" one had a defect in it, > but it was in the aft part of the canopy where it didn't matter since I > only needed the windscreen...so it worked out well for both of us). > Anyway I didn't want to use 1/4" for the whole canopy because it adds > about 5 lbs and most of it doesn't do you any good--in fact it could do > you harm in the event that you need to break out of it. So I fit the > 3/16" canopy first, then set aside the windscreen and cut a new one from > the 1/4" plexi. I haven't actually measured the difference, but was > surprised how much beefier the 1/4" one is. You can set the two > windscreens side-by-side on the workbench and stand on the other side of > the garage and clearly see the difference in thickness by looking at the > edg! > es, and most importantly, when you pick them up the 1/4" is noticeably > more rigid and solid-feeling whereas the 3/16" one is quite flimsy by > comparison. > > I was concerned about birdstrikes after seeing pictures of what happend > to two RV-6's that had birds come through the canopy. The 1/4" > thickness will undoubtedly offer more protection, not only in resistance > to breakage, but even if the bird still comes through it will dissipate > more energy before hitting me in the face. I also have a fighter helmet > with visor, although I don't know if it will be comfortable enough to > wear all the time and particularly in the summer when it's hot (and the > birds are all flying : ). If I can wear it and still enjoy flying with > it, I fully intend to do so. It offers some bird strike and crash > protection benefits. I'm not paranoid--just taking what I consider > reasonable and easy precautions to increase the margin of safety. FWIW, > I think a bird strike in the face of an RV pilot could easily be > fatal....perhaps not the actual impact, but the ensuing accident that > would result from the pilot's inability to fly the aircraft with > feathers, blo! > od, and plexi embedded in his/her face, not to mention the wind blast, > shock and disorientation. In one respect the guys in the side-by-side > RV's are a little better off if the bird only takes out one side of the > windscreen, they can shift to the other side of the cockpit and get some > protection from the wind. Whereas the tandem drivers would not have any > protection from the breeze, and if you could still see anything your > only hope would be pulling power all the way back and maybe slipping it > a bit... > > --Mark Navratil > Cedar Rapids, Iowa > RV-8A N2D prepping for paint... > > Time: 04:38:00 AM PST US > From: Parker43rp@aol.com > Subject: RV-List: RV-8 canopy > > --> RV-List message posted by: Parker43rp@aol.com > > Listers: > > I have been working on the canopy for my RV-8A, and find a condition > that > disturbs me. When I cut the wind screen section from the body of the > canopy, I > > found that the thickness of part of the windscreen was less than 0.1 > inch. > This seems to me a bit on the flimsy side for a plane that has a Vne of > 230 mph. > > The stock canopy is blown from 3/16 in. thick material, and > understandably it > thins as it forms into shape. There are a lot of these canopies in > service, > and as far as I know none have failed. However, I am now converting to > a > windscreen made from 1/4 in. material by Todd Silver. Todd has been an > alternate > > source for canopies for many RV builders and has all the required > tooling. He > > can be reached at if you wish to inquire. > > I would like to know if there are others that share my concern and > action > they have taken. > > Ray > > > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:27:45 PM PST US From: "Greg Young" Subject: RE: RV-List: RV-8 canopy --> RV-List message posted by: "Greg Young" Hey Doc, DNA doesn't work. You actually have to spell out "do not archive" to suppress the storage. > --> RV-List message posted by: "Dr. Kevin P. Leathers" > --> > > Are those plastic birds really that fast?? > > DOC > DNA ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:49:27 PM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: RV-List: RV-8 canopy --> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" A slow Glasair III will only do 220 KTAS. The race guys are doing 295-300 MPH (260~265 KTS) at Reno. BTW, Vne is listed as 291 KTS. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dr. Kevin P. Leathers Subject: Re: RV-List: RV-8 canopy --> RV-List message posted by: "Dr. Kevin P. Leathers" Are those plastic birds really that fast?? DOC DNA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: RV-List: RV-8 canopy > --> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" > > Bird strikes are a serious concern for all of us. I'm glad the plexi > windshield in my Glasair III is 1/2 inch thick. Of course, the low > altitude cruise speed of a GIII is 240 KTAS. > > Bruce > www.glasair.org > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > czechsix@juno.com > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: RV-8 canopy > > > --> RV-List message posted by: czechsix@juno.com > > > Ray, > > I agree with you wholeheartedly and went the exact same route...I > organized a group buy from Todd Silver for RV-8 canopies a while back, > and for my trouble Todd sent me two canopies for the price of one--one > was 3/16" and the other 1/4" (actually the 1/4" one had a defect in it, > but it was in the aft part of the canopy where it didn't matter since I > only needed the windscreen...so it worked out well for both of us). > Anyway I didn't want to use 1/4" for the whole canopy because it adds > about 5 lbs and most of it doesn't do you any good--in fact it could do > you harm in the event that you need to break out of it. So I fit the > 3/16" canopy first, then set aside the windscreen and cut a new one from > the 1/4" plexi. I haven't actually measured the difference, but was > surprised how much beefier the 1/4" one is. You can set the two > windscreens side-by-side on the workbench and stand on the other side of > the garage and clearly see the difference in thickness by looking at the > edg! > es, and most importantly, when you pick them up the 1/4" is noticeably > more rigid and solid-feeling whereas the 3/16" one is quite flimsy by > comparison. > > I was concerned about birdstrikes after seeing pictures of what happend > to two RV-6's that had birds come through the canopy. The 1/4" > thickness will undoubtedly offer more protection, not only in resistance > to breakage, but even if the bird still comes through it will dissipate > more energy before hitting me in the face. I also have a fighter helmet > with visor, although I don't know if it will be comfortable enough to > wear all the time and particularly in the summer when it's hot (and the > birds are all flying : ). If I can wear it and still enjoy flying with > it, I fully intend to do so. It offers some bird strike and crash > protection benefits. I'm not paranoid--just taking what I consider > reasonable and easy precautions to increase the margin of safety. FWIW, > I think a bird strike in the face of an RV pilot could easily be > fatal....perhaps not the actual impact, but the ensuing accident that > would result from the pilot's inability to fly the aircraft with > feathers, blo! > od, and plexi embedded in his/her face, not to mention the wind blast, > shock and disorientation. In one respect the guys in the side-by-side > RV's are a little better off if the bird only takes out one side of the > windscreen, they can shift to the other side of the cockpit and get some > protection from the wind. Whereas the tandem drivers would not have any > protection from the breeze, and if you could still see anything your > only hope would be pulling power all the way back and maybe slipping it > a bit... > > --Mark Navratil > Cedar Rapids, Iowa > RV-8A N2D prepping for paint... > > Time: 04:38:00 AM PST US > From: Parker43rp@aol.com > Subject: RV-List: RV-8 canopy > > --> RV-List message posted by: Parker43rp@aol.com > > Listers: > > I have been working on the canopy for my RV-8A, and find a condition > that > disturbs me. When I cut the wind screen section from the body of the > canopy, I > > found that the thickness of part of the windscreen was less than 0.1 > inch. > This seems to me a bit on the flimsy side for a plane that has a Vne of > 230 mph. > > The stock canopy is blown from 3/16 in. thick material, and > understandably it > thins as it forms into shape. There are a lot of these canopies in > service, > and as far as I know none have failed. However, I am now converting to > a > windscreen made from 1/4 in. material by Todd Silver. Todd has been an > alternate > > source for canopies for many RV builders and has all the required > tooling. He > > can be reached at if you wish to inquire. > > I would like to know if there are others that share my concern and > action > they have taken. > > Ray > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:50:00 PM PST US From: "Doug Weiler" Subject: Re: RV-List: Engine Painting --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Weiler" > > I will be building up my XP 360 soon and in reading the Lyc overhaul manual, > > there is a section on painting the engine. Pretty complicated from reading > > it and lots of thinners and types of paints I had not considered.It > > specifies the use of "Toluene" thinner and "Phtalate Resin type enamel". > > Never heard of these. It specifies this for both the case and cylinders. > > Can anyone who has painted their engine provide any advice on what is > > required and how did you go about painting it. I have the Sky Ranch engine > > book and am about to read it. The enging has also been zygloed or it looks > > like it. Thanks > > Ed O'Connor/RV-8/Panama City Fl > > Several years ago I had to replace the cam in my 0-320 on my Citabria. This was a good time to paint the crankcase and make it all look new. I followed Sacramento Sky' Ranchs procedure: stripped the case and cleaned it all up. I did not use any primer at all (on their recommendation). Sprayed it with Lycoming engine paint (rattle can) and then baked it in the oven for two hours at 200 degrees. The current owner reports the paint is still in perfect condition. Doug Weiler Hudson, WI ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:50:02 PM PST US From: "Doug Weiler" Subject: RV-List: Elevator/rudder cracks --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Weiler" Fellow Listers: An issue has come up around here regarding elevator and rudder cracking on "older" RVs with .016 skins on 180 hp aircraft with C/S props. Two of our local builders are discovering cracks at the forward edge of the rudder and elevator stiffeners after as little as 180 hours total time. I believe Van switches to .020 skins in the recent kits. My "almost-ready-to-fly" RV-4 has the thin skins (it is 180 hp/CS). I am expecting cracks to appear down the road. In fact I may even just go ahead and plan on building a new elevator and rudder with .020 skins prior to having the airplane painted next winter. Has anyone else had this problem in aircraft with over 300 hours and .016 skins?? Doug Weiler Hudson, WI BTW, the RV-4 I recently sold was built in 1993 with .020 skins (180 hp/CS). After 710 hours... no cracks whatsoever. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:50:06 PM PST US From: "Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club" Subject: RV-List: ferrite beads --> RV-List message posted by: "Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club" Has anyone used any ferrite shielding beads on their prewiring during the construction phase? If so can you tell us more about it and any results? Phil ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 01:00:45 PM PST US From: Jerry2DT@aol.com Subject: RV-List: "Out of the mouths of babes" --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry2DT@aol.com Listers... You might enjoy this... An essay written by a 5th grader WHY I WANT TO BE A PILOT WHEN I GRROW UP I WANT TO BE A PILOT BECAUSE IT IS A FUN JOB AND EASY TO DO. THAT'S WHY THERE ARE SO MANY PIL;OTS FLYING AROUND THESE DAYS. PILOTS DON'T NEED MUCH SCHOOL, THEY JUST HAVE TO LEARN TO READ NUMBERS SO THEY CAN READ THEIR INSTRUMENTS. I GUESS THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO READ ROAD MAPS TOO, SO THEY CAN FIND THEIR WAY IF THEY GET LOST. PILOTS SHOULD BE BRAVE SO THEY WON'T BE AFRAID IF IT'S FOGGY AND THEY CAN'T SEE OR IF A WING OR MOTOR FALLS OFF. THEY SHOULD STAY CALM SO THEY WILL KNOW WHAT TO DO. PILOTS SHOULD HAVE GOOD EYES TO SEE THROUGH CLOUDS, AND THEY CAN'T BE AFRAID OF THUNDER OR LIGHTENING BECAUSE THEY ARE SO MUCH CLOSER TO THEM THAN WE ARE. THE SALARY PILOTS MAKE IS ANOTHER THING I LIKE. THEY MAKE MORE MONEY THAN THEY KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH. THIS IS BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE THINK FLYING IS DANGEROUS, EXCEPT PILOTS DON'T BECAUSE THEY KNOW HOW EASY IT IS. I HOPE I DON'T GET AIR SICK BECAUSE I GET CAR SICK, AND THEN I WOULD HAVE TO GO TO WORK Jerry Cochran Do not archive ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:04:53 PM PST US From: Bill VonDane Subject: RV-List: Re: [VAF Mailing List] Garmin 196 "vansairforce " <005101c32550$e7be84e0$6c01a8c0@Silky> --> RV-List message posted by: Bill VonDane Here's the response I got from Garmin about a color 196: Thank you for contacting Garmin: The 176 C screen is a transflextive screen, that is a $5 college word that means the unit needs sunlight to be seen. Which is great for Marine applications but is less than desirable for aviation. Therefore, we don't have one yet. I am sure that someday it will come out but right now there are no current (near future) plans for this unit to be released in color. Thank you and Best Regards Burt Peterson ----- Original Message ----- From: Doug Hodde Subject: [VAF Mailing List] Garmin 196 What do you think are the chances they will be introducing a NEW Garmin 296 that's the 196 in color? I was kinda waiting til Oshkosh to see if they introduce one there. It seems like the next logical step. Doug ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:06:20 PM PST US From: "Konrad Werner" Subject: Re: RV-List: RV-8 canopy --> RV-List message posted by: "Konrad Werner" Dear Greg, Q: What did you expect from a DOC? A: DNA -Talk of course! Do nOt arChive ----- Original Message ----- From: Greg Young To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 1:24 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: RV-8 canopy --> RV-List message posted by: "Greg Young" Hey Doc, DNA doesn't work. You actually have to spell out "do not archive" to suppress the storage. > --> RV-List message posted by: "Dr. Kevin P. Leathers" > --> > > Are those plastic birds really that fast?? > > DOC > DNA ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:09:51 PM PST US From: "John Starn" Subject: Re: RV-List: "Out of the mouths of babes" --> RV-List message posted by: "John Starn" Thanks Jerry, very good. Sounds like something "Johnny Cochran" could believe or at least expound. Do Not Archive. 8*) KABONG (GBA) ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: RV-List: "Out of the mouths of babes" > --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry2DT@aol.com > > Listers... > > You might enjoy this... > > An essay written by a 5th grader > > WHY I WANT TO BE A PILOT > Jerry Cochran > Do not archive ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:34:48 PM PST US From: Jerry2DT@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Engine Pickling --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry2DT@aol.com Wow! I have heard of extreme measures to preserve the ancient Lycosaurus over the past 45 years but this one takes the prize. I wonder why Av engines seem to be sooooo susceptible to rust and other nasties from sitting, while other engines don't seem to. I have a 1947 Ford tractor that has sat for 6 months yearly since then and shows no signs of this kind of grief. Burns not a drop of oil and no measures of any kind are taken for preservation, nor does it's original manual suggest any. The main diff I can think of is it's liquid cooled, but why would that matter? I honestly wish someone would explain this scientifically, not anecdotally. Is this an aviation urban myth, or is it real, and if so, why? BTW, I was by Van's yesterday, took a peek out back and it looked like they were working furiously on the -10. Bet it won't be long... Jerry Cochran Wilsonville, OR RV6a/Superior IO-36O soon In a message dated 5/27/03 11:00:40 PM, rv-list-digest@matronics.com writes: << From: "Elsa & Henry" Subject: Re: RV-List: Lycoming 320-E2A --> RV-List message posted by: "Elsa & Henry" I have read the article posted by Ted McHenry and it is essentially what Atlantic Aviation* told me to do for long term storage. (*Where I got my overhauled O-320). They told me to fill it up to the brim with auto engine oil (I used Castrol GTX 10W30). Following their directions, I filled it through the crankcase breather pipe. It took 26 1/2 liters of oil to fill it! As there is always some of the valves that are open, oil will get into the manifolds and upper parts of the cylinders, so all ports should be well sealed. It will take some time for the oil to get into the upper part of the cylinders, past the piston rings, which have both valves closed so after 6 months I was able to add more oil. After a year, I added some more and that was it for the rest of the 4 years I had it stored. It is working great. I have 40 hours on it now with an oil change at 20 hours at which time and we just filled it with 5 quarts of which 1 quart was burned in the next 20 hours. >> ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 03:08:40 PM PST US From: "Jim Cimino" Subject: RV-List: Re: --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Cimino" Al, I ran two conduits along the upper longerons (one on each side) through the baggage compartment. As far as from the wings, I ran under the floor, up the and under the arm rests and drilled a hole in the lower corner of the instrument panel. I did this on both sides also. I am happy with the results. Jim James Cimino RV-8 SN 80039 80+ Hours 570-842-4057 http://www.geocities.com/jcimino.geo/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Grajek" ; ; > --> RV-List message posted by: "Al Grajek" > > Listers: > I am trying to decide the best way to route the wiring from the engie > instruments to the firewall in An RV8. With the location of the baggage > compartment, it seems you may have to go under it or run a conduit thru it? > Also what is the best way to route the pitot and static lines. I am up to > the panel, but not sure how to get the lines behind the panel unless I just > run the under it, bnut they will just be hanging there? ANy suggetsions. > Thanks. > Al Grajek > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:15:47 PM PST US From: Gert Subject: Re: RV-List: Engine Pickling --> RV-List message posted by: Gert Different strokes for different folks. I for one, have my engine filled to the brim with oil also, if only to protect the camshaft from rusting. Things rust quite easily in my garage. must have something to do with running kerosine heaters in the winter on a irregular interval, always good for lots of moistere condensation on my machining equipment. either way 20 bucks of the cheap oil vs. the risk of rusted engine interior seems a good investment somehow. Glad your '47 ford tractor is showing no signs of grief. but when it does, ya can just pull over and get a cheap replacement part.......... It is not so much a difference between water cooled vs. air cooled. it's the material used and the posiion of the material in the crankcase which makes the camshaft an easy target for moistere condensation. gert Jerry2DT@aol.com wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry2DT@aol.com > > Wow! I have heard of extreme measures to preserve the ancient Lycosaurus over > the past 45 years but this one takes the prize. I wonder why Av engines seem > to be sooooo susceptible to rust and other nasties from sitting, while other > engines don't seem to. I have a 1947 Ford tractor that has sat for 6 months > yearly since then and shows no signs of this kind of grief. Burns not a drop of > oil and no measures of any kind are taken for preservation, nor does it's > original manual suggest any. > > The main diff I can think of is it's liquid cooled, but why would that > matter? I honestly wish someone would explain this scientifically, not anecdotally. > Is this an aviation urban myth, or is it real, and if so, why? > > BTW, I was by Van's yesterday, took a peek out back and it looked like they > were working furiously on the -10. Bet it won't be long... > > Jerry Cochran > Wilsonville, OR > RV6a/Superior IO-36O soon > > > In a message dated 5/27/03 11:00:40 PM, rv-list-digest@matronics.com writes: > > << From: "Elsa & Henry" > Subject: Re: RV-List: Lycoming 320-E2A > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Elsa & Henry" > > I have read the article posted by Ted McHenry and it is essentially what > Atlantic Aviation* told me to do for long term storage. (*Where I got my > overhauled O-320). They told me to fill it up to the brim with auto engine > oil (I used Castrol GTX 10W30). Following their directions, I filled it > through the crankcase breather pipe. It took 26 1/2 liters of oil to fill > it! As there is always some of the valves that are open, oil will get into > the manifolds and upper parts of the cylinders, so all ports should be well > sealed. It will take some time for the oil to get into the upper part of the > cylinders, past the piston rings, which have both valves closed so after 6 > months I was able to add more oil. After a year, I added some more and that > was it for the rest of the 4 years I had it stored. It is working great. I > have 40 hours on it now with an oil change at 20 hours at which time and we > just filled it with 5 quarts of which 1 quart was burned in the next 20 > hours. > >> > > > > > > > > -- is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 03:21:31 PM PST US From: Garry LeGare Subject: RV-List: Navaid Auto Pilot for sale. --> RV-List message posted by: Garry LeGare Hi guys, I'm selling my Navaid Auto Pilot complete with the Smart Coupler 2. Cost over $1450.. First $1000. takes all, including brackets etc. Will supply original install instructions and close up pics of installation in Casper (no cutting of the seat pan brackets or other structure). 125 hours TTSN used only 5 or 6 hours, and that's why I'm selling it. Contact me of list. Do not archive. ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 03:55:45 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: "Out of the mouths of babes" From: david just david --> RV-List message posted by: david just david hello there, please remove my address from the list now. thanks to all who answered my questions. good luck to all, and happy flying!!!!! ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 04:23:46 PM PST US From: "Bob Hassel" Subject: RV-List: New RV-10 Photo's on Van's web site! --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Hassel" Bob Hassel Email: bob@hassel-usa.com URL: http://www.hassel-usa.com They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 04:44:15 PM PST US From: "Tom Gummo" "Rocket List" Subject: RV-List: Plane FUN --> RV-List message posted by: "Tom Gummo" Everybody, I just learned one of the problems with having the slowest Harmon Rocket. I was just finishing a aileron roll when I saw a C-130 fly about 1000 feet below me. My pax and I both saw TWO shadows on the ground but only one plane. This caused some delay on my part as I didn't want to find the second plane the HARD way (never found the second C-130, maybe the second shadow was mine). So, after a very careful scan of the sky, I dropped the nose of the Rocket and ran down the C-130. I was only able to get to about 1000 feet from the C-130 when he started to pull away. If I just had one of those "big" engines, I might have been able to pull up on their wing and waved to the pilots in the cockpit. HOW COOL WOULD THAT HAVE BEEN. I will just have to settle for close but no cigar. IT WAS FUN!!!! Tom Gummo Apple Valley, CA Harmon Rocket II, N561FS, flying ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 04:53:53 PM PST US From: "Alex Peterson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Elevator/rudder cracks --> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" > > Fellow Listers: > > An issue has come up around here regarding elevator and > rudder cracking on "older" RVs with .016 skins on 180 hp > aircraft with C/S props. Two of our local builders are > discovering cracks at the forward edge of the rudder and > elevator stiffeners after as little as 180 hours total time. > I believe Van switches to .020 skins in the recent kits. > > My "almost-ready-to-fly" RV-4 has the thin skins (it is 180 > hp/CS). I am expecting cracks to appear down the road. In > fact I may even just go ahead and plan on building a new > elevator and rudder with .020 skins prior to having the > airplane painted next winter. > > Has anyone else had this problem in aircraft with over 300 > hours and .016 skins?? > > Doug Weiler > Hudson, WI Doug has a typo in the last sentence, I suspect. What we want to know is if anyone who has the thicker, .020", skins has seen any cracking. We are looking for high time planes, maybe the -8's or preferably any 6's or 4's with the thicker skins. I have one of the planes Doug's talking about, as my rudder has cracks in the skin after only 300 hours, bummer. This is not from aerobatics, since the rudder isn't used much during flight anyway. The cracks are on both sides, so it is likely the prop pulses are causing a resonance in the rudder. The other plane is a -4, and the cracks in the skins go right into the area of the spar. The owner of that plane has grounded his plane for this repair at 180 hours TT. I'm skeptical that simply going from .016" to .020" skins will eliminate the problem. It might delay it, but I doubt it will go away. If it eliminates it, we won't know for quite some time, and it will be because the resonant frequency was changed. I did not like the "floating" stiffener design when I built the rudder back in '94, but built it per plans anyway. It is simply a poor design feature. The stiffeners can be managed at their aft ends through Van's recommended technique of putting RTV or something in there. However, the floating fronts are really a bad idea. When I rebuild mine, I will find a way of fastening the stiffeners to the spar, or build ribs. I highly recommend anyone who hasn't built theirs yet to find a way to attach the stiffeners on the elevators and rudder to the spar. Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN RV6-A N66AP 308 hours www.rvforum.org www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 05:43:52 PM PST US From: "Norman" Subject: Re: RV-List: Elevator/rudder cracks --> RV-List message posted by: "Norman" Hey Doug, When you were building your .016 rudder and elevators, did you put a dab of RTV at the trailing edges of the stiffeners? When I did my 6 Van was advising to do this to avoid cracks from the skins vibrating. I'm not expecting any cracks. Norman Hunger RV6A Delta BC ----- Original Message ----- > --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Weiler" > > Fellow Listers: > > An issue has come up around here regarding elevator and rudder cracking on > "older" RVs with .016 skins on 180 hp aircraft with C/S props. Two of our > local builders are discovering cracks at the forward edge of the rudder and > elevator stiffeners after as little as 180 hours total time. I believe Van > switches to .020 skins in the recent kits. > > My "almost-ready-to-fly" RV-4 has the thin skins (it is 180 hp/CS). I am > expecting cracks to appear down the road. In fact I may even just go ahead > and plan on building a new elevator and rudder with .020 skins prior to > having the airplane painted next winter. > > Has anyone else had this problem in aircraft with over 300 hours and .016 > skins?? ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 05:44:35 PM PST US From: Wheeler North Subject: RV-List: RE: RV-List Digest: 42 Msgs - 05/27/03 --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North John, below Time: 07:19:05 AM PST US From: "John Brick" Subject: RE: RV-List: TEL --> RV-List message posted by: "John Brick" More beating please... I've been waiting for answers to some basic questions but haven't seen them yet. 1. Don't cars have about the same compression ratios or even higher than the aircraft engines we use? Depends on the engines. Vertical helo engines commonly use 10:1, others around 8:1, genreally the same for most automotive. 2. Assuming yes to the first question, what is it about aircraft engines that require leaded fuel to prevent detonation, when cars do not? Hugh cylinder bores and pressures to develop power without an increase of RPM. 3. Transmission gearing? Seems like a constant speed prop is sort of similar, no? Yes, but not entirely used in the same manner. It certainly can be used to reduce detonation if the pilot could tell it was happening. 4. Variable ignition timing? FADEC should handle that, no? Yes, but very few recips have FADEC, and the only certified FADEC out there costs more than the engine it goes on. 5. Bore and valve size. Is that a player? Is a major player, see above 6. Anti-knock sensors are not the only reason, right? I don't understand the reference. The only reason for what? 7. Why are aircraft engines too noisy for anti-knock sensors? It's not just the lack of a muffler and prop noise, is it? They aren't. I meant they were too noisy for pilots to hear it. But I have long believed they should be installed on every airmotive engine out there. Of course it doesn't mean anything unless you have a method to get it out of detonation, such as varible timing. A CS prop would be a way, or reducing load with the elevator or throttle. I'm not sure why someone hasn't made a anti-knock sensing system. It shouldn't be that hard, although the R&D to get it tuned to each type of engine may be lengthy. I do know that GAMI has been working with them on Continentals for some time now, not sure if they are a part of their ignition system or not. The display would be an idiot light on the panel that flickers on when the sensor hears detonation. W jb do not archive yet ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 06:01:22 PM PST US From: Wheeler North Subject: RV-List: RE: RV-List Digest: 42 Msgs - 05/27/03 --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North >4. Variable ignition timing? FADEC should handle that, no? >>>I think the electronic ignitions available for Lycomings do to, don't they? Easy to do. I currently have an Aerosance FADEC system (the only certified version I know about) that I am installing on a test bed for our school, it doesn't use a knock sensor. It has timing gear ref, egt, cht, map, fp and cat sensors. I'm not sure about the others. I don't think the LASAR uses one, but I could be wrong. I thought they had a map sensor instead. The down side of a knock sensor is one has to start pre-detonating to tell they are about to detonate. In an aircooled engine this could be too late according to some experts. Using MAP and RPM and some conservative math one can keep the engine well away from detonation, and everybody is happy with the technology since we aren't using some new fangled sensor. (I know Piezo resistive sensors have been around for a very long time, its a sales thing, not a reality thing) do not archive ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 06:08:05 PM PST US From: "Alex Peterson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Elevator/rudder cracks --> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" Norman, the cracks on my 6A's rudder are on the FORWARD edge of the stiffeners. RTV would have to be real thick to span there. Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN RV6-A N66AP 308 hours www.rvforum.org www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson > --> RV-List message posted by: "Norman" > > Hey Doug, > > When you were building your .016 rudder and elevators, did > you put a dab of RTV at the trailing edges of the stiffeners? > When I did my 6 Van was advising to do this to avoid cracks > from the skins vibrating. I'm not expecting any cracks. > > Norman Hunger > RV6A Delta BC > ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 06:55:05 PM PST US From: "Doug Weiler" Subject: Re: RV-List: Elevator/rudder cracks --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Weiler" > > Hey Doug, > > When you were building your .016 rudder and elevators, did you put a dab of > RTV at the trailing edges of the stiffeners? When I did my 6 Van was > advising to do this to avoid cracks from the skins vibrating. I'm not > expecting any cracks. > > Norman Hunger > RV6A Delta BC Yes I did put RTV at the rear of the stiffeners, but I did not do anything at the front. That seems to be the problem as Alex mentioned in his note. Perhaps a glob of RTV in the front might also prevent this possibility of cracks. As I mentioned, 4EM which is just sold had no problem at all in 10 years. But I'm sure the .020 skins helped. My new RV-4 (22DW) will be flown unpainted and I just hate to spring for a super paint job to then have the tail surfaces begin to crack. Doug Weiler Hudson, WI ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 06:59:49 PM PST US From: "Doug Rozendaal" Subject: Re: RV-List: Elevator/rudder cracks --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" All, The pink panther has a IO-320 160 hp and I run the snot out of it, acro and every thing. I have several cracks on both sides, front and back rivit, I have fixed all of them with "Click" patches which are a little kit for sealing leaking rivits on Cherokee fuel tanks. I stop drill them, and apply the patch and never had a problem again. Hammerheads and full rudder slips aggravate the problem...... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Norman" Subject: Re: RV-List: Elevator/rudder cracks > --> RV-List message posted by: "Norman" > > Hey Doug, > > When you were building your .016 rudder and elevators, did you put a dab of > RTV at the trailing edges of the stiffeners? When I did my 6 Van was > advising to do this to avoid cracks from the skins vibrating. I'm not > expecting any cracks. > > Norman Hunger > RV6A Delta BC > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Weiler" > > > > Fellow Listers: > > > > An issue has come up around here regarding elevator and rudder cracking on > > "older" RVs with .016 skins on 180 hp aircraft with C/S props. Two of our > > local builders are discovering cracks at the forward edge of the rudder > and > > elevator stiffeners after as little as 180 hours total time. I believe > Van > > switches to .020 skins in the recent kits. > > > > My "almost-ready-to-fly" RV-4 has the thin skins (it is 180 hp/CS). I am > > expecting cracks to appear down the road. In fact I may even just go > ahead > > and plan on building a new elevator and rudder with .020 skins prior to > > having the airplane painted next winter. > > > > Has anyone else had this problem in aircraft with over 300 hours and .016 > > skins?? > > ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 07:29:03 PM PST US From: Dave Bristol Subject: Re: RV-List: Engine Pickling --> RV-List message posted by: Dave Bristol Jerry, I firmly believe in properly preserving ANY engine for long term storage. That being said, my O-360 sat totally un-preserved for 8 years (before I bought it) on a damp hangar floor about 2 miles from the Pacific Ocean in Southern California and when I opened it up there was absolutely no sign of any kind of corrosion. So, while it's a VERY good idea to correctly prepare it for storage, it's not necessarily going to destroy the engine if you don't. Dave RV6 So Cal EAA Technical Counselor. Jerry2DT@aol.com wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry2DT@aol.com > >Wow! I have heard of extreme measures to preserve the ancient Lycosaurus over >the past 45 years but this one takes the prize. I wonder why Av engines seem >to be sooooo susceptible to rust and other nasties from sitting, while other >engines don't seem to. I have a 1947 Ford tractor that has sat for 6 months >yearly since then and shows no signs of this kind of grief. Burns not a drop of >oil and no measures of any kind are taken for preservation, nor does it's >original manual suggest any. > >The main diff I can think of is it's liquid cooled, but why would that >matter? I honestly wish someone would explain this scientifically, not anecdotally. >Is this an aviation urban myth, or is it real, and if so, why? > >BTW, I was by Van's yesterday, took a peek out back and it looked like they >were working furiously on the -10. Bet it won't be long... > >Jerry Cochran >Wilsonville, OR >RV6a/Superior IO-36O soon > > >In a message dated 5/27/03 11:00:40 PM, rv-list-digest@matronics.com writes: > ><< From: "Elsa & Henry" >Subject: Re: RV-List: Lycoming 320-E2A > >--> RV-List message posted by: "Elsa & Henry" > >I have read the article posted by Ted McHenry and it is essentially what >Atlantic Aviation* told me to do for long term storage. (*Where I got my >overhauled O-320). They told me to fill it up to the brim with auto engine >oil (I used Castrol GTX 10W30). Following their directions, I filled it >through the crankcase breather pipe. It took 26 1/2 liters of oil to fill >it! As there is always some of the valves that are open, oil will get into >the manifolds and upper parts of the cylinders, so all ports should be well >sealed. It will take some time for the oil to get into the upper part of the >cylinders, past the piston rings, which have both valves closed so after 6 >months I was able to add more oil. After a year, I added some more and that >was it for the rest of the 4 years I had it stored. It is working great. I >have 40 hours on it now with an oil change at 20 hours at which time and we >just filled it with 5 quarts of which 1 quart was burned in the next 20 >hours. > >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 07:40:11 PM PST US From: Gert rv-list Subject: RV-List: Prop governor drive --> RV-List message posted by: Gert Hi Folks I need a bit of enlightenment. I am in need of a prop governor adapter. A quick look in the spec book for the IO-360-A1B shows two types. 1. "woodward" type governor adapter Lyc.# 75153 2. "AN" type governor adapter Lyc.# 75545 which one would be safer to get if one does not have the governor yet. What is the difference? (number of splines??) Somebody told me Van's engines come with the "woodward" type.... Thanks in advance Gert -- is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 08:16:35 PM PST US From: Charlie & Tupper England Subject: Re: RV-List: Engine Pickling --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie & Tupper England Gert wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Gert > >Different strokes for different folks. I for one, have my engine filled >to the brim with oil also, if only to protect the camshaft from rusting. > >Things rust quite easily in my garage. must have something to do with >running kerosine heaters in the winter on a irregular interval, always >good for lots of moistere condensation on my machining equipment. > >either way 20 bucks of the cheap oil vs. the risk of rusted engine >interior seems a good investment somehow. > >Glad your '47 ford tractor is showing no signs of grief. but when it >does, ya can just pull over and get a cheap replacement part.......... > >It is not so much a difference between water cooled vs. air cooled. it's >the material used and the posiion of the material in the crankcase which >makes the camshaft an easy target for moistere condensation. > >gert > So, gert, when's the last time you bought parts for farm equipment? 'Cheap' ain't in the farm supplier's vocabulary. ;-) Also, as this city boy has learned, farm equipment has more ways to kill you than aircraft, with less warning. Charlie (mid 50's era Massey Ferguson money pit , RV-7 tail in progress) do not archive ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 08:19:19 PM PST US From: "Mike Stephenson" Subject: Re: RV-List: Prop governor drive --> RV-List message posted by: "Mike Stephenson" Can not help with your enlightenment but check out Ebay auction # 2417135901. A friend is selling the woodward type. I have seen it. It is brand new. Mike Stephenson > I need a bit of enlightenment. > > I am in need of a prop governor adapter. A quick look in the spec book > for the IO-360-A1B shows two types. > > 1. > "woodward" type governor adapter Lyc.# 75153 > 2. "AN" type governor adapter Lyc.# 75545 > > which one would be safer to get if one does not have the governor yet. > What is the difference? (number of splines??) > > Somebody told me Van's engines come with the "woodward" type.... > > Thanks in advance > > Gert > -- > is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 > > ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 09:23:45 PM PST US From: ACEACORN@aol.com Subject: RV-List: unsubscibe --> RV-List message posted by: ACEACORN@aol.com unsubscibe to rv-list digest aceacorn@aol.com ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 10:14:23 PM PST US From: kempthornes Subject: RV-List: RV4 built by Wiley Harrington?? --> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes Anyone know anything about this plane? Good or bad? K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne RV6-a N7HK flying! PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA)