---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 06/11/03: 57 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:23 AM - Re: Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new organization (Doug Rozendaal) 2. 06:36 AM - apologies for the repost! (Frazier, Vincent A) 3. 06:58 AM - Re: Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new organization (lm4@juno.com) 4. 07:14 AM - Re: Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new organization (Phil Birkelbach) 5. 07:24 AM - EAA Golden West Fly-in and Air Show (Clinchy, Dave) 6. 07:44 AM - Re: Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new organization (John Allen Hurn) 7. 08:30 AM - Re: Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new organization (John Helms) 8. 08:50 AM - EAA (Wheeler North) 9. 09:10 AM - Re: Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new organization (glenn.williams@businessacft.bombardier.com) 10. 09:24 AM - Re: Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new organization (James E. Clark) 11. 09:29 AM - Re: Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new organization (Scott Brumbelow) 12. 10:19 AM - Re: Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new organization (Robert Miller) 13. 10:28 AM - Camlock question (Doug Weiler) 14. 11:14 AM - Re: Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new organization (John Helms) 15. 11:16 AM - Re: Re: CD player..Kinda RV related (Jeff Dowling) 16. 11:23 AM - Re: Recommended RV camping gear? (Jeff Dowling) 17. 11:30 AM - Re: Re: CD player..Kinda RV related (Robert Miller) 18. 11:30 AM - Camlock installation (Scott Bilinski) 19. 11:38 AM - Re: Camlock question (Randy Lervold) 20. 11:41 AM - Re: Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new (Scott Bilinski) 21. 12:21 PM - Saving a Signature for your Email Posts (Ernest Kells) 22. 12:22 PM - Was thoughts... now evolving fly-ins (mstewart@qa.butler.com) 23. 12:52 PM - Dynon ship update (Dana Overall) 24. 01:46 PM - Re: EAA (Cy Galley) 25. 01:50 PM - Re: Camlock installation (Terry Watson) 26. 02:15 PM - Re: Recommended RV camping gear? (Cy Galley) 27. 02:21 PM - Re: Camlock installation - (BrownTool@aol.com) 28. 02:30 PM - Re: Camlock installation (Scott Brumbelow) 29. 03:06 PM - Re: Camlock installation - (Scott Bilinski) 30. 03:12 PM - Re: Camlock installation - (Scott Bilinski) 31. 04:00 PM - Re: Camlock installation - (Terry Watson) 32. 04:19 PM - Re: Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new organization (Wayne Reese) 33. 04:31 PM - Re: Camlock installation (Cy Galley) 34. 05:23 PM - Re: Camlock installation - (kempthornes) 35. 05:34 PM - Re: Camlock installation - (C J Heitman) 36. 05:45 PM - New web group for San Francisco Bay Area Rvators (Kevin Hester) 37. 05:46 PM - Dynon EFIS questions (Kevin Horton) 38. 06:00 PM - Re: Camlock installation - (John Starn) 39. 06:02 PM - Graphics (John Mcmahon) 40. 06:23 PM - State park flyins (was:Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new (Charlie & Tupper England) 41. 06:28 PM - Re: Dynon EFIS questions (Larry Bowen) 42. 06:30 PM - Re: Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new organization (Mike Mckenna) 43. 06:44 PM - Re: New web group for San Francisco Bay Area Rvators (RV6 Flyer) 44. 07:13 PM - Oshkosh & Beer.....forget Coke!! (Dana Overall) 45. 07:16 PM - Re: Camlock installation - (Sam Buchanan) 46. 07:48 PM - Re: Oshkosh & Beer.....forget Coke!! (Kyle Boatright) 47. 07:49 PM - Re: Graphics (JusCash@aol.com) 48. 07:53 PM - Re: AFP Boost Pump and Fuel Lines in RV-6 (emrath) 49. 07:58 PM - Re: Dynon EFIS questions (Steve J Hurlbut) 50. 08:02 PM - Re: Oshkosh & Beer.....forget Coke!! (Steve J Hurlbut) 51. 08:02 PM - Adhesive for non-structural metal-to-metal (j1j2h3@juno.com) 52. 08:30 PM - Re: Graphics (Dr. Leathers) 53. 09:02 PM - Re: Dynon EFIS questions (Jim Jewell) 54. 09:49 PM - Re: Graphics () 55. 10:10 PM - Re: Graphics (James E. Clark) 56. 10:15 PM - No license, no experience, building an RV-8 (Brett Morawski) 57. 11:18 PM - Re: No license, no experience, building an RV-8 (John Starn) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:23:30 AM PST US From: "Doug Rozendaal" Subject: Re: RV-List: Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new organization --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" We are a pretty small constitiuency fighting a pretty big Goverment, and a whole bunch of soccer moms. If we want to keep flying the way we do now, we need some pretty big, politically powerful, organizations working for us. Every one is welcome to join any club you want, go sit under a the wing of your airplane in a pasture, away from the non-flying public, and tell each other that you are a great pilots or builders you are. But DO NOT stop supporting the political (and commercial) machines, AOPA and EAA that are fighting for us in Washington and in the public eye. I have some beefs with EAA, and I make them known in the right circles, (I am pretty sure no one cares) but they do a great job in many areas. Join SAA if you like, that is great, but for a different purpose. All of us should continue to support EAA and AOPA until SAA or another group has a political machine to fight for us. I don't see that happening anytime soon. Tailwinds, Doug Rozendaal do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:36:52 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: apologies for the repost! From: "Frazier, Vincent A" --> RV-List message posted by: "Frazier, Vincent A" Guys, Sorry about reposting Monday's RV-list. My "send" button and the pull down window I was trying to access were too close together! I tried to recall the email... but no luck. I sure hope it had a do not archive string in it somewhere. Vince ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:24 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new organization From: lm4@juno.com --> RV-List message posted by: lm4@juno.com Tom, I've been thinking about this for years. I have been to every Osh since 76 and have watched the metamorphesis of EAA. I sincerely believe that this animal is out of control and that nothing can be done to change it. It began feeding on itself when they let Pepsi & McDonald's in. While Osh probably can't be saved I believe there is a way we can save ourselves. There is a booth at Osh run by the Chamber of commerce, I think, and in this booth are two maps. One of the U.S. and one of the world. The people there want you to stick a pin in the map representing your home town. If some of us could get copies of the U.S. map we could determine where the concentrations of pilots are. Naturally there will be more pilots on the left coast but where ever they are is the place to start a grass roots Air Show. Now I have to believe, though I could be wrong, that Paul Poberesney is as tired of the money grubbing as we are and that he could be invaluable in helping us set up a number of gatherings throuout the U.S. I would think that these organizations could affiliate or associate with each other, in the name of politics, ei advancement of G.A., without coming under one single board of dictators. What do you think ? Larry Mac Donald Rochester N.Y. lm4@juno.com On Tue, 10 Jun 2003 17:37:06 -0700 "Tom Gummo" writes: --> RV-List message posted by: "Tom Gummo" LIVE LARGE. At the local level, I am a chapter president. The chapter members volunteer their time, efforts, and money and receive nothing in return except the knowledge that we worked hard to support general aviation. I want the EAA to be a volunteer organization, where my dues are used to support general aviation, and not pay large salaries, build large and fancy offices, etc, etc. I only have so many dollars I can put into aviation. I cant just throw money at both organizations. I have to pick one. I will currently stay with the EAA. However, I have seen a couple of emails on this RV-List that have wanted to start another organization. I will be watching as I am not happy with my current choices. Sorry, I cant help with money at this time but let me know if I can help in another way. Tom Gummo President EAA Chapter 768 Apple Valley, CA ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:14:53 AM PST US From: "Phil Birkelbach" Subject: Re: RV-List: Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new organization --> RV-List message posted by: "Phil Birkelbach" Here here Doug. Well Said. If the last two years have taught us nothing else they should have taught us that the non-flying public and the governement pencil pushers have no clue about what general aviation is, and like anything else in life people tend to fear things that they don't understand, and the more they fear us the more likely they are to erase our freedom to fly. If the AOPA and the EAA did nothing else besides the lobby for us I would happily send my money. I hear so many people say they don't want to join the AOPA because the magazine is full of airplanes that they can't afford. WHO CARES, the magazine is a perk the reason that we should be sending them our money is because they are fighting hard for us all over the country. Does the EAA do the same, yes. Maybe not with the same veracity but they are working for us behind the scenes and the EAA tends to focus more on issues relating to smaller home built airplanes. If my dues are making Tom P. rich then by all means. That is what is supposed to happen to a person that runs a huge organization. You get what you pay for. If you think that Tom is doing a bad job then go to Oshkosh and vote for somebody else, or send your proxy with a friend to vote for someone else. If he is doing a good job then pay him. I am sure that we could get somebody that would be willing to run the organization for $10/hour at any McDonalds but... Money is incentive, and I personally think that Tom is doing a fine job. He's not doing quite the job that Phil Boyer is doing but our rights as homebuilders are not being attacked nearly the way our airports and airspace are being attacked. If we are not paying Phil Boyer a LOT of money then we aren't paying him enough, and should give him a raise. Godspeed, Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas EAA - 653540 AOPA - 04257858 RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Canopy http://www.myrv7.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Rozendaal" Subject: Re: RV-List: Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new organization > --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" > > We are a pretty small constitiuency fighting a pretty big Goverment, and a > whole bunch of soccer moms. If we want to keep flying the way we do now, we > need some pretty big, politically powerful, organizations working for us. > Every one is welcome to join any club you want, go sit under a the wing of > your airplane in a pasture, away from the non-flying public, and tell each > other that you are a great pilots or builders you are. But DO NOT stop > supporting the political (and commercial) machines, AOPA and EAA that are > fighting for us in Washington and in the public eye. > > I have some beefs with EAA, and I make them known in the right circles, (I > am pretty sure no one cares) but they do a great job in many areas. Join > SAA if you like, that is great, but for a different purpose. All of us > should continue to support EAA and AOPA until SAA or another group has a > political machine to fight for us. I don't see that happening anytime > soon. > > Tailwinds, > Doug Rozendaal > > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:24:11 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: EAA Golden West Fly-in and Air Show From: "Clinchy, Dave" --> RV-List message posted by: "Clinchy, Dave" Listers: Any of you planning on attending the Golden West Fly-in at Marysville Ca on June 20-22? I see on their website, http://www.goldenwestflyin.org/gwaahome.shtml, that there will be a workshop on building a XP-360 engine, presented by Eagle Aviation. Any one know any thing about Eagle aviation or about this workshop? Dave Clinchy 7 Fuse Sacramento, Ca do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:44:20 AM PST US From: "John Allen Hurn" Subject: Re: RV-List: Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new organization --> RV-List message posted by: "John Allen Hurn" Sounds like the right idea. Can you just see some National State Park, with an old grass strip in the USA with no commercial food venders and ever one tail gating a big two day lunch. Wow! Now that would be like the old wagon train days only with airplanes. We all chip in to pay the State Park not some one else. Johnny wrote. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:30:46 AM PST US From: "John Helms" Subject: Re: RV-List: Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new organization --> RV-List message posted by: "John Helms" I know about and recently read some accounts of the Central TX fly-in, and have been following the posts here. I think those types of get togethers are great, but see a problem with them too. Of course, the worst possible situation is that someone would get killed at the event and their survivors sue the organizers and shuts the whole thing down because there was no event insurance. It's never quite as simple as it sounds. And in anticipation of the flames, please don't be mad at insurance companies or agents such as myself... take it out on the ambulance chasing lawyers. Insurance makes stuff like what you're talking about possible in the litigious society we have today. There are thousands of things like having to pay for insurance which (IMHO) have caused the EAA to become the bureaucratic megalith that it is today. And those things have caused the cost to attend to rise, and the necessity of vendors. And when you attract enough people, you're going to attract folks like Van's Aircraft, Inc, and others who'll want to set up booths. You'll ask a modest charge for him to attend to cover costs. It is creep. Next thing you know you'll be holding workshops and seminars. Another good example of the creep, with no food vendors, people who don't want to cook for themselves will urge the organizers to contract with a local caterer the next year. They'll do that, and it'll be great. Then people will complain that it's a monopoly and they'll theorize that somebody's probably getting a kickback, so you'll invite 3 restaurants/caterers the next year. and on it goes until you have the same thing as Oshkosh. I think you get my point, but for those of you who don't know the history of it, ask about how Sun'n'Fun started. What you're describing, and the things we are talking about have all been done before, and not all that long ago. Please do not archive. John "JT" Helms Branch Manager NationAir Insurance Agency Pleasure and Business Branch ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allen Hurn" Subject: Re: RV-List: Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new organization --> RV-List message posted by: "John Allen Hurn" Sounds like the right idea. Can you just see some National State Park, with an old grass strip in the USA with no commercial food venders and ever one tail gating a big two day lunch. Wow! Now that would be like the old wagon train days only with airplanes. We all chip in to pay the State Park not some one else. Johnny wrote. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:50:54 AM PST US From: Wheeler North Subject: RV-List: EAA --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North The one thing OSH does for me is give me a place to volunteer where I get to see every type of airplane land and takeoff, and get to write the whole trip off as its not only volunteer wrok, but I also get credit for it in my professional development plan. ;{) If they can work the system, I can work the system. do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:10:12 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new organization From: glenn.williams@businessacft.bombardier.com 06/11/2003 10:37:36 AM --> RV-List message posted by: glenn.williams@businessacft.bombardier.com Okay here are my latest thoughts. 1. I beleive EAA should be around. we do need the lobbying protectection it provides along with the AOPA. 2. I would like to see changes made that bring it back to basics and away from the commercialism. 3. new programs instituted that help it's members. One program I have been toying with is an engine program that the biz jets currently have and that is you pay a buy in fee and hourly fee for times flown. When your engine has a problem or reaches TBO you are aided with repairs and overhaul costs at a reduced rate or covered 100% based on the fee you choose. 4. I believe we need the EAA hoever I also believe there is more than enough room to grow a new grass roots club where the members are owners and have a direct say as to how the club operates, not a proxy vote. I believe in capitilism, I would like to become wealthy doing what I love to do but how much is enough? I have plenty of ideas and thoughts and could go on and on. However after reading all of your post's both public and private I see I am not the only one who feels the way I do. I would like to get together and discuss these pertinent issues with all who have issues face to face. Since that is not possible Please continue to e-mail me with your ideas and thougths. regards Glenn Williams do not archive ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:24:32 AM PST US From: "James E. Clark" Subject: RE: RV-List: Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new organization --> RV-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" Phil, Doug, Gary ... "spot on!" Having a small gathering of (custom built) planes is not the only (or major) thing the org is about these days. And I for one am glad that is the case. There is power in numbers. Imagine what would happen if the Mayor of *Oshkosh* decided to plow up the runway in the middle of the night! Forget about us pilots complaining (not really :-) ), just imagine the hundred thousand LOCAL, voting, non-flyers who would be joining Ford and John Deere in chorus. These orgs (EAA and AOPA) serve a much larger purpose and I too think they are doing a fine job at that. Because of the size of membership **and** the ability to pull of things like "AirVenture", the org has impact with other groups like the FAA and thereby have the ability to do good for us all. So if it takes a big commercial event to help them be able to influence on our behalf .. then great. There are a lot of other airports and fly-ins I can attend at other times of the year. Also, I think that EAA and AOPA are a complementary pair. They focus on different but important things that affect us all. That being said, I will repeat, it looks like Paul P is working on the "small gathering of friends" notion and I think that it too will be something nice to attend. James Do Not Archive > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Phil Birkelbach > Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 10:12 AM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new > organization > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Phil Birkelbach" > > Here here Doug. Well Said. If the last two years have taught us nothing > else they should have taught us that the non-flying public and the > governement pencil pushers have no clue about what general > aviation is, and > like anything else in life people tend to fear things that they don't > understand, and the more they fear us the more likely they are to > erase our > freedom to fly. > > If the AOPA and the EAA did nothing else besides the lobby for us I would > happily send my money. I hear so many people say they don't want to join > the AOPA because the magazine is full of airplanes that they can't afford. > WHO CARES, the magazine is a perk the reason that we should be > sending them > our money is because they are fighting hard for us all over the country. > Does the EAA do the same, yes. Maybe not with the same veracity but they > are working for us behind the scenes and the EAA tends to focus more on > issues relating to smaller home built airplanes. > > If my dues are making Tom P. rich then by all means. That is what is > supposed to happen to a person that runs a huge organization. > You get what > you pay for. If you think that Tom is doing a bad job then go to Oshkosh > and vote for somebody else, or send your proxy with a friend to vote for > someone else. If he is doing a good job then pay him. I am sure that we > could get somebody that would be willing to run the organization for > $10/hour at any McDonalds but... Money is incentive, and I > personally think > that Tom is doing a fine job. He's not doing quite the job that > Phil Boyer > is doing but our rights as homebuilders are not being attacked nearly the > way our airports and airspace are being attacked. If we are not > paying Phil > Boyer a LOT of money then we aren't paying him enough, and should > give him a > raise. > > Godspeed, > > Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas > EAA - 653540 > AOPA - 04257858 > RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Canopy > http://www.myrv7.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doug Rozendaal" > To: > Subject: Re: RV-List: Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new > organization > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" > > > > We are a pretty small constitiuency fighting a pretty big > Goverment, and a > > whole bunch of soccer moms. If we want to keep flying the way > we do now, > we > > need some pretty big, politically powerful, organizations > working for us. > > Every one is welcome to join any club you want, go sit under a the wing > of > > your airplane in a pasture, away from the non-flying public, > and tell each > > other that you are a great pilots or builders you are. But DO NOT stop > > supporting the political (and commercial) machines, AOPA and > EAA that are > > fighting for us in Washington and in the public eye. > > > > I have some beefs with EAA, and I make them known in the right > circles, (I > > am pretty sure no one cares) but they do a great job in many > areas. Join > > SAA if you like, that is great, but for a different purpose. All of us > > should continue to support EAA and AOPA until SAA or another group has a > > political machine to fight for us. I don't see that happening anytime > > soon. > > > > Tailwinds, > > Doug Rozendaal > > > > do not archive > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:29:47 AM PST US From: Scott Brumbelow Subject: Re: RV-List: Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new organization --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Brumbelow Doug is right on the money. I have been a member of EAA and AOPA for years: EAA because of the homebuilding side and "Sport Aviation"; AOPA because of my perception of their lobbying abilities. After 9/11, my wife finally understood why I send my check to AOPA every year for a magazine I rarely read (like many others on this list, I do not care about the $250,000+ aircraft). However, after seeing how Boyer (and crew) responded post 9/11 - to congress, to the media outlets, etc. - AOPA likely gained my support for life. My PERCEPTION is that EAA tries really hard to be as effective as AOPA in such lobbying, but they are not even close. 9/11 only clarified the need to have a strong voice to represent my interests, and $40 a year is a small price to pay AOPA for that voice. The point here is that we all need that voice (whether it is AOPA or whatever). While I too have not been as happy with the increased commercialization of Oshkosh every year, fun fly-ins are not the primary reason I send such organizations my dues. Doug is right. Regardless of what other organizations may be developed, please do not stop supporting the ones that give us our only voice to the politicians and the general public. You cannot simply put the blinders on when it comes to public perception of GA. If there is no voice to protect it, it WILL grow sour... Scott in MEM do not archive Doug Rozendaal wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" > > We are a pretty small constitiuency fighting a pretty big Goverment, and a > whole bunch of soccer moms. If we want to keep flying the way we do now, we > need some pretty big, politically powerful, organizations working for us. > Every one is welcome to join any club you want, go sit under a the wing of > your airplane in a pasture, away from the non-flying public, and tell each > other that you are a great pilots or builders you are. But DO NOT stop > supporting the political (and commercial) machines, AOPA and EAA that are > fighting for us in Washington and in the public eye. > > I have some beefs with EAA, and I make them known in the right circles, (I > am pretty sure no one cares) but they do a great job in many areas. Join > SAA if you like, that is great, but for a different purpose. All of us > should continue to support EAA and AOPA until SAA or another group has a > political machine to fight for us. I don't see that happening anytime > soon. > > Tailwinds, > Doug Rozendaal > > do not archive > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:19:58 AM PST US From: Robert Miller Subject: Re: RV-List: Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new organization --> RV-List message posted by: Robert Miller To claim... even for a moment ... that it is only the lawyers that have caused so much of our problems in these areas is misleading, at the least. I can tell you from much experience, over many years, that insurance companies and the lawyers work together all the time to the financial benefit of each, and to the harm of the poor person who has over years paid his money in good faith. It's a truly shameful racket. Go ahead. Flame me. But I assure you, I speak from much experience and speak only the truth here. I've suggested before that you form a Yahoo group dedicated to avaition insurance issues. Those who wish, will subscribe to that group. The rest of us can be spared your efforts, overt or covert, to sell insurance to all of us. Robert E. Miller, M.D. And I know, you will find dishonest people in any profession... certainly including doctors. But that doesn't begin to tell the story of the racket that exists between lawyers and the multibillion dollar insurance companies. John Helms wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "John Helms" > > And in anticipation of the flames, please don't be mad at insurance > companies or agents such as myself... take it out on the ambulance chasing > lawyers. Insurance makes stuff like what you're talking about possible in > the litigious society we have today. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:28:43 AM PST US From: "Doug Weiler" Subject: RV-List: Camlock question --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Weiler" Greetings all: I was wondering if anyone on the list has had any long term experience with Camlocs for their cowling installation. Several local folks have used them with good success but I was curious as to any long term issues. I used Camloc 2700's in my RV-4 installation (which is about to fly) installed as per Skybolt Fasteners instructions. Just curious, Doug Weiler N722DW, RV-4 awaiting FAA inspection ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:14:52 AM PST US From: "John Helms" Subject: Re: RV-List: Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new organization --> RV-List message posted by: "John Helms" I don't sell Commercial insurance. And I think you're thinking of Health Insurance companies (which from your profession I would gather is your area of expertise.) I merely intended to point out that the 'gatherings' people are doing, or talking about forming can have concerns beyond peoples well intentioned goals. Sun and Fun is the most recent that I can think of. Oshkosh is actually another example. They started out as exactly the same kind of thing as what people are discussing here and actually doing (as in the case of the Central TX fly-in). SnF and Oshkosh have naturally evolved into what they are today. I think that it would be naive to think that gathering people together today would be any different in how the gathering evolved for a variety of reasons more vast than those I mentioned in my earlier post. My area of expertise happens to be insurance. I am vaguely (sp?)familiar with commercial insurance as my company has offices that do that and I originally started down that path before RV's and other light aircraft presented an opportunity for me. do not archive JT ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Miller" Subject: Re: RV-List: Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new organization --> RV-List message posted by: Robert Miller To claim... even for a moment ... that it is only the lawyers that have caused so much of our problems in these areas is misleading, at the least. I can tell you from much experience, over many years, that insurance companies and the lawyers work together all the time to the financial benefit of each, and to the harm of the poor person who has over years paid his money in good faith. It's a truly shameful racket. Go ahead. Flame me. But I assure you, I speak from much experience and speak only the truth here. I've suggested before that you form a Yahoo group dedicated to avaition insurance issues. Those who wish, will subscribe to that group. The rest of us can be spared your efforts, overt or covert, to sell insurance to all of us. Robert E. Miller, M.D. And I know, you will find dishonest people in any profession... certainly including doctors. But that doesn't begin to tell the story of the racket that exists between lawyers and the multibillion dollar insurance companies. John Helms wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "John Helms" > > And in anticipation of the flames, please don't be mad at insurance > companies or agents such as myself... take it out on the ambulance chasing > lawyers. Insurance makes stuff like what you're talking about possible in > the litigious society we have today. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:16:20 AM PST US From: "Jeff Dowling" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: CD player..Kinda RV related --> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" Will the ipod talk to an IBM machine? Not to pleased with my archos. Jeff Dowling Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Laird Owens Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: CD player..Kinda RV related > --> RV-List message posted by: Laird Owens > > I've been flying my RV with my iPod for a year and a half. I love > it. Matter of fact, I just upgraded to the new 15gig as a present to > myself. One of the best gadgets I own. > > There's a picture of my installation of my iPod at the bottom of the page at: > http://members3.clubphoto.com/socal230330/429050/guest.phtml > > Laird > > Do Not Archive > > >--> RV-List message posted by: Bob Japundza > > > >I have a Sony car cd player in mounted in the panel of my RV-6, and > >wouldn't recommend going that route. It skips when you put any > >g-load on the airplane. > > > >Recently I bought a 15gb Apple iPod and I think it is the best thing > >since sliced bread. I've gotten very attached to it. I have about > >60 cd's loaded on it right now and am barely using over 3 gb out of > >the 15 available at 192kbs vbr encoding rate which is very close to > >cd quality (my ears can't tell the difference, but at 128kbs I can). > >It doesn't skip even when you shake it (it has a tiny hard drive > >inside) and I wired up a jack in the panel to plug it in. At first > >my wife told me I was crazy for buying what amounted to a $400 > >walkman and I had a case of sticker shock initially but that quickly > >wore off. They are worth the $$ if you like your music. The > >software that comes with the iPod (for windows) is not very good, I > >use some shareware software to sync the iPod with my pc, and no > >commercially-available mp3 encoder can touch eac/lame which is a > >combination of freeware mp3 encoding programs. > > > >Bob Japundza > >RV-6 flying 450hrs, F1 under const. > > > > > >--------------------------------- > >Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:23:15 AM PST US From: "Jeff Dowling" Subject: Re: RV-List: Recommended RV camping gear? --> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" Just a very small note for a small item(s). If you're used to sleeping in a dark and quiet place, you may consider 2 essential items. Earplugs and eyeshield. The sun comes up earlier when you're in a tent, ecspecially when you accidentally hangar fly a little too late the night before :) Jeff Dowling 6a ps does anyone know how to save a signature block using windows and outlook express? ----- Original Message ----- From: Charles Rowbotham Subject: Re: RV-List: Recommended RV camping gear? > --> RV-List message posted by: "Charles Rowbotham" > > > Bill, > > We puchased a Serria Designs Clip 3 tent (although it suppose to be for 3 > it's really a 2 peron tent. The tent is great high quality and I expect it > to last. The good news ot weiths in at 5.5 lbs and is baged in a cylinder > shape about 1' long. The ouch is it's $175 on the net (but that is not bad > for a quality tent. > > You may want to rent a good tent and try camping - I enjoyed it before you > take the plung. > > Chuck Rowbotham > RV-8A > > >From: SportAV8R@aol.com > >Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com > >To: rv-list@matronics.com > >Subject: RV-List: Recommended RV camping gear? > >Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 12:51:30 EDT > > > >--> RV-List message posted by: SportAV8R@aol.com > > > >I think my wife and I are nearing the point of getting adventurous in our > >old > >age and thinking about how cool it might be to actually travel a bit in our > >RV to places where a rental car was not the first necessity upon arrival. > >Camping with the plane sounds like a way to recover some of our lost > >youthfulness... but so much has changed since we camped as kids or as young > >parents in the > >80's. Would those of you who are now adventuring in this way give us a > >heads > >up on some of the new hi-tech gear we should be shopping for? Obviously it > >has to be able to fit in a -6A, so the lighter and smaller, the better. We > >are > >also into comfort, so I would especially cherish any advice on good > >sleeping > >gear and shelter. > > > >Bill B > >at almost 47, not quite the Tom Sawyer / Huck Finn type I once was... > > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:30:04 AM PST US From: Robert Miller Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: CD player..Kinda RV related --> RV-List message posted by: Robert Miller yes. Jeff Dowling wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" > > Will the ipod talk to an IBM machine? > > Not to pleased with my archos. > > Jeff Dowling > > Do not archive > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Laird Owens > To: > Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: CD player..Kinda RV related > > > --> RV-List message posted by: Laird Owens > > > > I've been flying my RV with my iPod for a year and a half. I love > > it. Matter of fact, I just upgraded to the new 15gig as a present to > > myself. One of the best gadgets I own. > > > > There's a picture of my installation of my iPod at the bottom of the page > at: > > http://members3.clubphoto.com/socal230330/429050/guest.phtml > > > > Laird > > > > Do Not Archive > > > > >--> RV-List message posted by: Bob Japundza > > > > > >I have a Sony car cd player in mounted in the panel of my RV-6, and > > >wouldn't recommend going that route. It skips when you put any > > >g-load on the airplane. > > > > > >Recently I bought a 15gb Apple iPod and I think it is the best thing > > >since sliced bread. I've gotten very attached to it. I have about > > >60 cd's loaded on it right now and am barely using over 3 gb out of > > >the 15 available at 192kbs vbr encoding rate which is very close to > > >cd quality (my ears can't tell the difference, but at 128kbs I can). > > >It doesn't skip even when you shake it (it has a tiny hard drive > > >inside) and I wired up a jack in the panel to plug it in. At first > > >my wife told me I was crazy for buying what amounted to a $400 > > >walkman and I had a case of sticker shock initially but that quickly > > >wore off. They are worth the $$ if you like your music. The > > >software that comes with the iPod (for windows) is not very good, I > > >use some shareware software to sync the iPod with my pc, and no > > >commercially-available mp3 encoder can touch eac/lame which is a > > >combination of freeware mp3 encoding programs. > > > > > >Bob Japundza > > >RV-6 flying 450hrs, F1 under const. > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------- > > >Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:30:45 AM PST US From: Scott Bilinski Subject: RV-List: Camlock installation --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski How are regular camlocks held in place? I have heard there is a expensive tool used to install them but I have looked at the camlock and can see no way to do anything to them with a tool that will make them stay in place. At 12:25 PM 6/11/03 -0500, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Weiler" > >Greetings all: > >I was wondering if anyone on the list has had any long term experience with >Camlocs for their cowling installation. Several local folks have used them >with good success but I was curious as to any long term issues. I used >Camloc 2700's in my RV-4 installation (which is about to fly) installed as >per Skybolt Fasteners instructions. > >Just curious, > >Doug Weiler >N722DW, RV-4 awaiting FAA inspection > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:38:05 AM PST US From: "Randy Lervold" Subject: Re: RV-List: Camlock question --> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Lervold" Doug, I've had the Skybolt version on my entire firewall perimeter for 310 hours, no problem at all. I love 'em. Good luck with the inspection and getting airborne! Randy Lervold RV-8, 310 hrs www.rv-8.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Weiler" Subject: RV-List: Camlock question > --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Weiler" > > Greetings all: > > I was wondering if anyone on the list has had any long term experience with > Camlocs for their cowling installation. Several local folks have used them > with good success but I was curious as to any long term issues. I used > Camloc 2700's in my RV-4 installation (which is about to fly) installed as > per Skybolt Fasteners instructions. > > Just curious, > > Doug Weiler > N722DW, RV-4 awaiting FAA inspection > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:41:05 AM PST US From: Scott Bilinski Subject: RE: RV-List: Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new organization --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski For those who want to give funds to the AOPA for gov relations, see below. Thank you for contacting AOPA. You may make a donation to AOPA's Air Safety Foundation, or Political Action Committee at any time. We are not currently participating in any donation drives. Another option for you would be signing up with a Family Membership. Basically you would pay $19.00 and you would be considered a full member, but you would not receive the magazine. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thank you. At 12:21 PM 6/11/03 -0400, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" > >Phil, Doug, Gary ... "spot on!" > >Having a small gathering of (custom built) planes is not the only (or major) >thing the org is about these days. And I for one am glad that is the case. > >There is power in numbers. Imagine what would happen if the Mayor of >*Oshkosh* decided to plow up the runway in the middle of the night! Forget >about us pilots complaining (not really :-) ), just imagine the hundred >thousand LOCAL, voting, non-flyers who would be joining Ford and John Deere >in chorus. > >These orgs (EAA and AOPA) serve a much larger purpose and I too think they >are doing a fine job at that. Because of the size of membership **and** the >ability to pull of things like "AirVenture", the org has impact with other >groups like the FAA and thereby have the ability to do good for us all. So >if it takes a big commercial event to help them be able to influence on our >behalf .. then great. There are a lot of other airports and fly-ins I can >attend at other times of the year. > >Also, I think that EAA and AOPA are a complementary pair. They focus on >different but important things that affect us all. > > >That being said, I will repeat, it looks like Paul P is working on the >"small gathering of friends" notion and I think that it too will be >something nice to attend. > > >James > >Do Not Archive > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Phil Birkelbach >> Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 10:12 AM >> To: rv-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: RV-List: Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new >> organization >> >> >> --> RV-List message posted by: "Phil Birkelbach" >> >> Here here Doug. Well Said. If the last two years have taught us nothing >> else they should have taught us that the non-flying public and the >> governement pencil pushers have no clue about what general >> aviation is, and >> like anything else in life people tend to fear things that they don't >> understand, and the more they fear us the more likely they are to >> erase our >> freedom to fly. >> >> If the AOPA and the EAA did nothing else besides the lobby for us I would >> happily send my money. I hear so many people say they don't want to join >> the AOPA because the magazine is full of airplanes that they can't afford. >> WHO CARES, the magazine is a perk the reason that we should be >> sending them >> our money is because they are fighting hard for us all over the country. >> Does the EAA do the same, yes. Maybe not with the same veracity but they >> are working for us behind the scenes and the EAA tends to focus more on >> issues relating to smaller home built airplanes. >> >> If my dues are making Tom P. rich then by all means. That is what is >> supposed to happen to a person that runs a huge organization. >> You get what >> you pay for. If you think that Tom is doing a bad job then go to Oshkosh >> and vote for somebody else, or send your proxy with a friend to vote for >> someone else. If he is doing a good job then pay him. I am sure that we >> could get somebody that would be willing to run the organization for >> $10/hour at any McDonalds but... Money is incentive, and I >> personally think >> that Tom is doing a fine job. He's not doing quite the job that >> Phil Boyer >> is doing but our rights as homebuilders are not being attacked nearly the >> way our airports and airspace are being attacked. If we are not >> paying Phil >> Boyer a LOT of money then we aren't paying him enough, and should >> give him a >> raise. >> >> Godspeed, >> >> Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas >> EAA - 653540 >> AOPA - 04257858 >> RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Canopy >> http://www.myrv7.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Doug Rozendaal" >> To: >> Subject: Re: RV-List: Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new >> organization >> >> >> > --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" >> > >> > We are a pretty small constitiuency fighting a pretty big >> Goverment, and a >> > whole bunch of soccer moms. If we want to keep flying the way >> we do now, >> we >> > need some pretty big, politically powerful, organizations >> working for us. >> > Every one is welcome to join any club you want, go sit under a the wing >> of >> > your airplane in a pasture, away from the non-flying public, >> and tell each >> > other that you are a great pilots or builders you are. But DO NOT stop >> > supporting the political (and commercial) machines, AOPA and >> EAA that are >> > fighting for us in Washington and in the public eye. >> > >> > I have some beefs with EAA, and I make them known in the right >> circles, (I >> > am pretty sure no one cares) but they do a great job in many >> areas. Join >> > SAA if you like, that is great, but for a different purpose. All of us >> > should continue to support EAA and AOPA until SAA or another group has a >> > political machine to fight for us. I don't see that happening anytime >> > soon. >> > >> > Tailwinds, >> > Doug Rozendaal >> > >> > do not archive >> > >> > >> >> > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:21:23 PM PST US From: "Ernest Kells" Subject: RV-List: Saving a Signature for your Email Posts --> RV-List message posted by: "Ernest Kells" > Jeff Dowling 6a > ps does anyone know how to save a signature block using windows and outlook > express? To have a signature at the end of your email message (similar to the one below) just do the following; From Outlook (when listing all the messages - not when you have opened one of them): Select TOOLS Menu. Select OPTIONS. Select SIGNATURES fill in your message, click whether you want it automatically on every message, etc. Click OK You're done. Ernest Kells - RV-9A O235-N2C, Wood Prop 90% Complete - Fairings ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:22:36 PM PST US From: mstewart@qa.butler.com Subject: RV-List: Was thoughts... now evolving fly-ins ORIGINAL_MESSAGE,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=ham version=2.53 --> RV-List message posted by: mstewart@qa.butler.com JT, Keep the informative stuff coming. Mike Stewart do not archive -----Original Message----- From: John Helms [mailto:jhelms@i1.net] Subject: Re: RV-List: Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new organization --> RV-List message posted by: "John Helms" I don't sell Commercial insurance. And I think you're thinking of Health Insurance companies (which from your profession I would gather is your area of expertise.) I merely intended to point out that the 'gatherings' people are doing, or talking about forming can have concerns beyond peoples well intentioned goals. Sun and Fun is the most recent that I can think of. Oshkosh is actually another example. They started out as exactly the same kind of thing as what people are discussing here and actually doing (as in the case of the Central TX fly-in). SnF and Oshkosh have naturally evolved into what they are today. I think that it would be naive to think that gathering people together today would be any different in how the gathering evolved for a variety of reasons more vast than those I mentioned in my earlier post. My area of expertise happens to be insurance. I am vaguely (sp?)familiar with commercial insurance as my company has offices that do that and I originally started down that path before RV's and other light aircraft presented an opportunity for me. do not archive JT ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Miller" Subject: Re: RV-List: Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new organization --> RV-List message posted by: Robert Miller To claim... even for a moment ... that it is only the lawyers that have caused so much of our problems in these areas is misleading, at the least. I can tell you from much experience, over many years, that insurance companies and the lawyers work together all the time to the financial benefit of each, and to the harm of the poor person who has over years paid his money in good faith. It's a truly shameful racket. Go ahead. Flame me. But I assure you, I speak from much experience and speak only the truth here. I've suggested before that you form a Yahoo group dedicated to avaition insurance issues. Those who wish, will subscribe to that group. The rest of us can be spared your efforts, overt or covert, to sell insurance to all of us. Robert E. Miller, M.D. And I know, you will find dishonest people in any profession... certainly including doctors. But that doesn't begin to tell the story of the racket that exists between lawyers and the multibillion dollar insurance companies. John Helms wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "John Helms" > > And in anticipation of the flames, please don't be mad at insurance > companies or agents such as myself... take it out on the ambulance chasing > lawyers. Insurance makes stuff like what you're talking about possible in > the litigious society we have today. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:52:47 PM PST US From: "Dana Overall" Subject: RV-List: Dynon ship update --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" I just ordered my Dynon, #345. He told be they are up to about 150 on the list now. Their stated goal is 15 per week but have hit 20 per week the last couple weeks. I was told they are looking at 30 per week as a goal but to not hold them to that. Look at you number and do the math. Dana Overall Richmond, KY RV-7 slider/fuselage http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:46:52 PM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: RV-List: EAA --> RV-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" Plus you can write the expenses off your income tax. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wheeler North" Subject: RV-List: EAA > --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North > > The one thing OSH does for me is give me a place to volunteer where I get to > see every type of airplane land and takeoff, and get to write the whole trip > off as its not only volunteer wrok, but I also get credit for it in my > professional development plan. > > ;{) > > If they can work the system, I can work the system. > > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 01:50:22 PM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Camlock installation --> RV-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" I bought the kit from Skybolt but haven't installed it yet. If I recall correctly, the expensive tool to install them with was a $40 version of a modified $3.00 pair of pliers. I will assume it works, but it sure didn't look like a $40 tool to me. Terry RV-8A Seattle --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski How are regular camlocks held in place? I have heard there is a expensive tool used to install them but I have looked at the camlock and can see no way to do anything to them with a tool that will make them stay in place. ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:15:41 PM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: RV-List: Recommended RV camping gear? --> RV-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" Go to options and select the signature tab. There is a box to type in the signature. if you high light the signature name you can re-name it and can have several different signature. Cy Galley - MVR-AACA www.aaca.org/mvr Cy Galley - Bellanca Champion Club Newsletter Editor & EAA TC www.bellanca-championclub.com Actively supporting Aeroncas Cy Galley Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org Cy Galley - Webmaster www.qcbc.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Dowling" Subject: Re: RV-List: Recommended RV camping gear? > --> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" > > Just a very small note for a small item(s). If you're used to sleeping in a > dark and quiet place, you may consider 2 essential items. Earplugs and > eyeshield. The sun comes up earlier when you're in a tent, ecspecially when > you accidentally hangar fly a little too late the night before :) > > Jeff Dowling > 6a > > ps does anyone know how to save a signature block using windows and outlook > express? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Charles Rowbotham > To: > Subject: Re: RV-List: Recommended RV camping gear? > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Charles Rowbotham" > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > We puchased a Serria Designs Clip 3 tent (although it suppose to be for 3 > > it's really a 2 peron tent. The tent is great high quality and I expect it > > to last. The good news ot weiths in at 5.5 lbs and is baged in a cylinder > > shape about 1' long. The ouch is it's $175 on the net (but that is not bad > > for a quality tent. > > > > You may want to rent a good tent and try camping - I enjoyed it before you > > take the plung. > > > > Chuck Rowbotham > > RV-8A > > > > >From: SportAV8R@aol.com > > >Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com > > >To: rv-list@matronics.com > > >Subject: RV-List: Recommended RV camping gear? > > >Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 12:51:30 EDT > > > > > >--> RV-List message posted by: SportAV8R@aol.com > > > > > >I think my wife and I are nearing the point of getting adventurous in our > > >old > > >age and thinking about how cool it might be to actually travel a bit in > our > > >RV to places where a rental car was not the first necessity upon arrival. > > >Camping with the plane sounds like a way to recover some of our lost > > >youthfulness... but so much has changed since we camped as kids or as > young > > >parents in the > > >80's. Would those of you who are now adventuring in this way give us a > > >heads > > >up on some of the new hi-tech gear we should be shopping for? Obviously > it > > >has to be able to fit in a -6A, so the lighter and smaller, the better. > We > > >are > > >also into comfort, so I would especially cherish any advice on good > > >sleeping > > >gear and shelter. > > > > > >Bill B > > >at almost 47, not quite the Tom Sawyer / Huck Finn type I once was... > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:21:22 PM PST US From: BrownTool@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Camlock installation - --> RV-List message posted by: BrownTool@aol.com In a message dated 6/11/2003 3:56:19 PM Central Daylight Time, terry@tcwatson.com writes: > I bought the kit from Skybolt but haven't installed it yet. If I recall > correctly, the expensive tool to install them with was a $40 version of a > modified $3.00 pair of pliers. I will assume it works, but it sure didn't > look like a $40 tool to me. > My observations as an aircraft tool supplier: The proper tool used to install Camlocs is a pair of Camloc Pliers (much more than a pair of "modified $3.00 pliers"). Camloc Pliers are not modified from anything, they are their own unique tool manufactured from their own unique forgings and designed specifically to install Camlocs - nothing more - nothing less. I am not sure what a $40 tool looks like, but I can assure you that buying the correct tool for the job will more than pay for itself when aggravation and lost time fumbling with improper tools is factored in. Why might you ask are they more expensive than say Cleco Pliers which they vaguely resemble - the answer is simple "Economy of Scale". We sell (as I assume is true with most other tool suppliers) thousands and thousands of Cleco Pliers every year. We sell less than a thousand Camloc Pliers per year. The more you manufacture the cheaper the cost. Now for a shameless plug: We sell Camloc Pliers on our website for $25.95. For those of you interested, visit our website at www.browntool.com Hope I have added something of use to the conversation. Michael Brown Brown Aviation Tool Supply Co. 3801 S. Meridian Ave. Oklahoma City, OK 73119 USA 1-800-587-3883 405-688-6888 FAX 405-688-6555 browntool@aol.com www.browntool.com ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 02:30:00 PM PST US From: Scott Brumbelow Subject: Re: RV-List: Camlock installation --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Brumbelow There are two tools Skybolt sells - the modified pliers to put the camlock (i.e., screw) itself in, and this device to stretch and then install the locking ring around the camlock housing. If I recall, they are $20-something each, but if you buy both it costs $40 for both. While I too hate paying that much for something like that, I would do it again as having the right tool for what was needed made installation of all components a breeze. Both tools work very well for what they are intended. Scott in MEM RV-8A baffles Terry Watson wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" > > I bought the kit from Skybolt but haven't installed it yet. If I recall > correctly, the expensive tool to install them with was a $40 version of a > modified $3.00 pair of pliers. I will assume it works, but it sure didn't > look like a $40 tool to me. > > Terry > RV-8A > Seattle > > --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski > > > How are regular camlocks held in place? I have heard there is a expensive > tool used to install them but I have looked at the camlock and can see no > way to do anything to them with a tool that will make them stay in place. > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 03:06:24 PM PST US From: Scott Bilinski Subject: Re: RV-List: Camlock installation - --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski I was told the Camlock tool is about $300.00. At 05:17 PM 6/11/03 -0400, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: BrownTool@aol.com > >In a message dated 6/11/2003 3:56:19 PM Central Daylight Time, >terry@tcwatson.com writes: > >> I bought the kit from Skybolt but haven't installed it yet. If I recall >> correctly, the expensive tool to install them with was a $40 version of a >> modified $3.00 pair of pliers. I will assume it works, but it sure didn't >> look like a $40 tool to me. >> >My observations as an aircraft tool supplier: > >The proper tool used to install Camlocs is a pair of Camloc Pliers (much more >than a pair of "modified $3.00 pliers"). Camloc Pliers are not modified from >anything, they are their own unique tool manufactured from their own unique >forgings and designed specifically to install Camlocs - nothing more - nothing >less. I am not sure what a $40 tool looks like, but I can assure you that >buying the correct tool for the job will more than pay for itself when >aggravation and lost time fumbling with improper tools is factored in. > >Why might you ask are they more expensive than say Cleco Pliers which they >vaguely resemble - the answer is simple "Economy of Scale". We sell (as I >assume is true with most other tool suppliers) thousands and thousands of >Cleco >Pliers every year. We sell less than a thousand Camloc Pliers per year. The >more >you manufacture the cheaper the cost. > >Now for a shameless plug: We sell Camloc Pliers on our website for $25.95. >For those of you interested, visit our website at HREF="www.browntool.com">www.browntool.com > >Hope I have added something of use to the conversation. > >Michael Brown >Brown Aviation Tool Supply Co. >3801 S. Meridian Ave. >Oklahoma City, OK 73119 >USA > >1-800-587-3883 >405-688-6888 >FAX 405-688-6555 > >browntool@aol.com >www.browntool.com > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 03:12:13 PM PST US From: Scott Bilinski Subject: Re: RV-List: Camlock installation - --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski So what holds a camlock in place and how? What do the camlock pliers do or install and how? At 05:17 PM 6/11/03 -0400, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: BrownTool@aol.com > >In a message dated 6/11/2003 3:56:19 PM Central Daylight Time, >terry@tcwatson.com writes: > >> I bought the kit from Skybolt but haven't installed it yet. If I recall >> correctly, the expensive tool to install them with was a $40 version of a >> modified $3.00 pair of pliers. I will assume it works, but it sure didn't >> look like a $40 tool to me. >> >My observations as an aircraft tool supplier: > >The proper tool used to install Camlocs is a pair of Camloc Pliers (much more >than a pair of "modified $3.00 pliers"). Camloc Pliers are not modified from >anything, they are their own unique tool manufactured from their own unique >forgings and designed specifically to install Camlocs - nothing more - nothing >less. I am not sure what a $40 tool looks like, but I can assure you that >buying the correct tool for the job will more than pay for itself when >aggravation and lost time fumbling with improper tools is factored in. > >Why might you ask are they more expensive than say Cleco Pliers which they >vaguely resemble - the answer is simple "Economy of Scale". We sell (as I >assume is true with most other tool suppliers) thousands and thousands of >Cleco >Pliers every year. We sell less than a thousand Camloc Pliers per year. The >more >you manufacture the cheaper the cost. > >Now for a shameless plug: We sell Camloc Pliers on our website for $25.95. >For those of you interested, visit our website at HREF="www.browntool.com">www.browntool.com > >Hope I have added something of use to the conversation. > >Michael Brown >Brown Aviation Tool Supply Co. >3801 S. Meridian Ave. >Oklahoma City, OK 73119 >USA > >1-800-587-3883 >405-688-6888 >FAX 405-688-6555 > >browntool@aol.com >www.browntool.com > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 04:00:06 PM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Camlock installation - --> RV-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" OK, I thought maybe my memory was slipping a bit again so I went out to the shop and dug out my genuine Camlock 4P3 1/4 fastener tooling, AKA Camlock Pliers. Price: $34.00. No doubt they have their own castings, but they sure look like a modified $3.00 pair of slip joint pliers to me. The other tool that Skybolt told me I needed is the T26 snap ring tool, price $19.00. Both are probably worth it, but I stand by my comment that the Camlock Pliers look like a modified $3.00 pair of slip joint pliers. If your are building a house and buy enough gun nails to put on the roof, the nail supplier will sometimes give you the pneumatic nail gun to use them in, which doesn't look anything like a modified $3.00 hammer. One of the great things about building an airplane is how it conditions you to spend money. I remember when I started out wondering where I could get tools cheaper than Avery of Cleavland or Brown. After five years of building and spending, I can order a $24,000 engine without my knees getting weak, and I don't hesitate anymore about buying the right tool for the job. But these things still look like a modified $3.00 pair of slip joint pliers to me. I don't remember if Skybolt charged me full price for the tools or not. Terry My observations as an aircraft tool supplier: The proper tool used to install Camlocs is a pair of Camloc Pliers (much more than a pair of "modified $3.00 pliers"). Camloc Pliers are not modified from anything, they are their own unique tool manufactured from their own unique forgings and designed specifically to install Camlocs - nothing more - nothing less. I am not sure what a $40 tool looks like, but I can assure you that buying the correct tool for the job will more than pay for itself when aggravation and lost time fumbling with improper tools is factored in. Why might you ask are they more expensive than say Cleco Pliers which they vaguely resemble - the answer is simple "Economy of Scale". We sell (as I assume is true with most other tool suppliers) thousands and thousands of Cleco Pliers every year. We sell less than a thousand Camloc Pliers per year. The more you manufacture the cheaper the cost. Now for a shameless plug: We sell Camloc Pliers on our website for $25.95. For those of you interested, visit our website at www.browntool.com Hope I have added something of use to the conversation. Michael Brown Brown Aviation Tool Supply Co. 3801 S. Meridian Ave. Oklahoma City, OK 73119 USA ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 04:19:13 PM PST US From: "Wayne Reese" Subject: RE: RV-List: Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new organization --> RV-List message posted by: "Wayne Reese" Hear! Hear! Wayne Do Not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doug Rozendaal Subject: Re: RV-List: Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new organization --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" We are a pretty small constitiuency fighting a pretty big Goverment, and a whole bunch of soccer moms. If we want to keep flying the way we do now, we need some pretty big, politically powerful, organizations working for us. Every one is welcome to join any club you want, go sit under a the wing of your airplane in a pasture, away from the non-flying public, and tell each other that you are a great pilots or builders you are. But DO NOT stop supporting the political (and commercial) machines, AOPA and EAA that are fighting for us in Washington and in the public eye. I have some beefs with EAA, and I make them known in the right circles, (I am pretty sure no one cares) but they do a great job in many areas. Join SAA if you like, that is great, but for a different purpose. All of us should continue to support EAA and AOPA until SAA or another group has a political machine to fight for us. I don't see that happening anytime soon. Tailwinds, Doug Rozendaal do not archive ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 04:31:10 PM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: RV-List: Camlock installation --> RV-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" See if your local EAA chapter doesn't own a set. Mine does! Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org Always looking for articles for the Experimenter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Brumbelow" Subject: Re: RV-List: Camlock installation > --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Brumbelow > > There are two tools Skybolt sells - the modified pliers to put the camlock > (i.e., screw) itself in, and this device to stretch and then install the > locking ring around the camlock housing. If I recall, they are $20-something > each, but if you buy both it costs $40 for both. While I too hate paying that > much for something like that, I would do it again as having the right tool > for what was needed made installation of all components a breeze. Both tools > work very well for what they are intended. > > Scott in MEM > RV-8A baffles > > > Terry Watson wrote: > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" > > > > I bought the kit from Skybolt but haven't installed it yet. If I recall > > correctly, the expensive tool to install them with was a $40 version of a > > modified $3.00 pair of pliers. I will assume it works, but it sure didn't > > look like a $40 tool to me. > > > > Terry > > RV-8A > > Seattle > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski > > > > > > How are regular camlocks held in place? I have heard there is a expensive > > tool used to install them but I have looked at the camlock and can see no > > way to do anything to them with a tool that will make them stay in place. > > > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 05:23:44 PM PST US From: kempthornes Subject: Re: RV-List: Camlock installation - --> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes At 05:17 PM 6/11/2003 -0400, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: BrownTool@aol.com > >Why might you ask are they more expensive than say Cleco Pliers which they >vaguely resemble - the answer is simple "Economy of Scale". We sell (as I >assume is true with most other tool suppliers) thousands and thousands of >Cleco >Pliers every year. We sell less than a thousand Camloc Pliers per >year. The more >you manufacture the cheaper the cost. Michael, It is very, very difficult to get us rv'ers to understand the concept of economy of scale, especially when it comes to engines for small aircraft. However, if you are selling a 1000 pairs a year and others are selling some too - maybe that is high. When I took a shop class in an Industrial Engineer program, we made pliers and other very fine tools. Hand made pliers on an antique drop hammer would take less than ten minutes of unskilled labor. Allowing that they cost $10 to make, wholesaler pays that + $3 profit to the manufacturer. Now wholesaler sells to retailer for $13 plus maybe 30% and some shipping so retailer pays maybe $19. Retailer marks it up 40% to $27. ?? Now maybe one of us who wants to get filthy rich could set up shop and make some to compete at a lower price?? K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne RV6-a N7HK flying! PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA) ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 05:34:34 PM PST US From: "C J Heitman" Subject: RE: RV-List: Camlock installation - --> RV-List message posted by: "C J Heitman" This page shows how Camloc pliers are used and also how the assemblies are retained: http://pegasusautoracing.com/pdfs/079.pdf If you are installing Camlocs on a regular basis it makes sense to have the proper tools. However, for occasional use, you can improvise (IMHO). If your EAA chapter has a tool crib, you may want to check to see if they have Camloc tools available. -----Original Message----- --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski So what holds a Camloc in place and how? What do the Camloc pliers do or install and how? ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 05:45:36 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: New web group for San Francisco Bay Area Rvators From: Kevin Hester --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Hester Hi, (please ignore if not around SF/Silicon Valley) I've noticed a dearth of electronic regional resources for the San Francisco Bay Area - kinda odd since Van's shows a bunch of builders in this 'high-tech' area. I did find a web page for an old group, but it seems no longer active. To remedy this - I've created a small mailing list for our use - if you are in the Bay Area, please sign up for this low traffic mailing list at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bayarea-rvator/ The group description is as follows: This group provides a forum to complement the various great national RV mailing lists. Those lists provide a great forum for asking technical questions or general discussions. This forum is focused on local aspects of building or flying an RV. The email traffic should be relatively low. Example topics for this group: * Anyone want to trade bucking bar assistance (please email me off list)? * Anyone have an instrument hole cutter I can borrow? * Hey, this looks odd can someone take a look? * I'm at a major milestone in my project (i.e. 1st flight etc...) I'd like to invite ya'll to give my work a critical look. * I've got a hangar available for rent (yeah - we can all dream) EAA 62 provides a forum for this sort of stuff - but it is more of a monthly meeting sort of thing (with a potentially long drive for some of us) ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 05:46:48 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: RV-List: Dynon EFIS questions --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton I am very tempted by the Dynon D-10 EFIS, but I have a few questions before decide whether to order one. Dynon hasn't answered my e-mail yet, and I am an impatient type, so I'll fire some of the questions to the list. Night operation - as near as I can tell, there is no lighting for the buttons, so they would only be lit by my cockpit flood lights. Is that correct? Can the intensity of the display be set low enough for night operation? Is the colour balance still OK at low intensity? Does anyone have anything bad to say? I have read several posts from those how are flying, and everyone seems delirously happy. Is this a universal feeling? What is the status of the heading function? If I order a unit, how much of a deposit is required at the time of order, and when is the rest of the money required? I want to see one in person before I order. I live near Ottawa, Ontario. Does anyone have one flying nearer than Green Bay, WI? If so, would you be willing to take me up for a flight if I pay for the gas? I've got some Air Canada frequent flyer points that might not be worth much soon, so I might as well use them on a trip to see a Dynon flying. Does anyone have one near to Ottawa who isn't flying yet? Even a look at one powered up on the ground would be useful to me. Thanks, -- Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/ ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 06:00:59 PM PST US From: "John Starn" Subject: Re: RV-List: Camlock installation - --> RV-List message posted by: "John Starn" Dang, didn't know I needed such a tool, didn't even know that such a tool existed. I used the same "tool" that I used to install wheel keepers on my kids toys. A deep, six point, 3/8" drive socket (sized to fit w/o wobble) and tapped on with a light weight, rubber coated, mallet. Did remove a coupla of the rings... used a thin blade screwdriver, did not reuse them. The ones removed were exchanged for longer or shorter ones to fit flush. Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good. Do Not Archive KABONG (GBA) 8*) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Camlock installation - > --> RV-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" > > OK, I thought maybe my memory was slipping a bit again so I went out to the > shop and dug out my genuine Camlock 4P3 1/4 fastener tooling, AKA Camlock > Pliers. Price: $34.00. www.browntool.com > > Hope I have added something of use to the conversation. > > Michael Brown > Brown Aviation Tool Supply Co. > 3801 S. Meridian Ave. > Oklahoma City, OK 73119 > USA ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 06:02:42 PM PST US From: John Mcmahon Subject: RV-List: Graphics --> RV-List message posted by: John Mcmahon Has anyone in RV land installed Graphic's on their RV,and if so what Co did you use.. I checked the archives !! Thanks John McMahon (Paint Prep) Do not archive ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 06:23:36 PM PST US From: Charlie & Tupper England Subject: RV-List: State park flyins (was:Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new organization) --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie & Tupper England John Allen Hurn wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "John Allen Hurn" > >Sounds like the right idea. Can you just see some National State Park, with >an old grass strip in the USA with no commercial food venders and ever one >tail gating a big two day lunch. Wow! Now that would be like the old wagon >train days only with airplanes. We all chip in to pay the State Park not >some one else. > >Johnny wrote. > Oklahoma has (or had the last time I looked) quite a few state parks with nice runways within the parks, complete with a phone to call the ranger for ground transport. Several have lodges & cabins for rent, as well as camping facilities. I attended a T-18 flyin at one about 10 years ago, & went back on my own later because it was so nice. If someone wants to do the legwork to organize it, I'll try to attend. Oklahoma should be within reach of a lot of RV'rs for a weekend trip. Charlie (no, I'm not from Oklahoma.) ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 06:28:06 PM PST US From: "Larry Bowen" Subject: RE: RV-List: Dynon EFIS questions --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" They'll need my CC number when it's ready to ship. I've given them no money yet. I get the impression from some of the pictures on Dynon's site that the buttons are labled via the screen. Push any button and the menu/labels appear -- so lighting to the buttons themselves wouldn't be needed. Guessing -- could be wrong. - Larry Bowen Larry@BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com 2003 - The year of flight! > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Horton > Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 8:43 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com; rv8list@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RV-List: Dynon EFIS questions > > > --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton > > I am very tempted by the Dynon D-10 EFIS, but I have a few questions > before decide whether to order one. Dynon hasn't answered my e-mail > yet, and I am an impatient type, so I'll fire some of the questions > to the list. > > Night operation - as near as I can tell, there is no lighting for the > buttons, so they would only be lit by my cockpit flood lights. Is > that correct? Can the intensity of the display be set low enough for > night operation? Is the colour balance still OK at low intensity? > > Does anyone have anything bad to say? I have read several posts from > those how are flying, and everyone seems delirously happy. Is this a > universal feeling? > > What is the status of the heading function? > > If I order a unit, how much of a deposit is required at the time of > order, and when is the rest of the money required? > > I want to see one in person before I order. I live near Ottawa, > Ontario. Does anyone have one flying nearer than Green Bay, WI? If > so, would you be willing to take me up for a flight if I pay for the > gas? I've got some Air Canada frequent flyer points that might not > be worth much soon, so I might as well use them on a trip to see a > Dynon flying. Does anyone have one near to Ottawa who isn't flying > yet? Even a look at one powered up on the ground would be useful to > me. > > Thanks, > -- > Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) > Ottawa, Canada > http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/ > > > ========== > Matronics Forums. > ========== > List members. > ========== > ========== > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 06:30:58 PM PST US From: "Mike Mckenna" Subject: RE: RV-List: Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new organization --> RV-List message posted by: "Mike Mckenna" -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Helms Subject: Re: RV-List: Thoughts on Glenn Williams ideas of a new organization "And when you attract enough people, you're going to attract folks like Van's Aircraft, Inc, and others who'll want to set up booths. You'll ask a modest charge for him to attend to cover costs." Unfortunately, these big events (Osh, Sun N Fun) are charging the vendors so much money to setup, they are starting to shrink there displays or not show. The "Home Show" vendors appear to be taking over the buildings at Sun N Fun. There soon will be no attraction at these events for the grass roots EAA minded individuals. Mike Mckenna ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 06:44:43 PM PST US From: "RV6 Flyer" Subject: Re: RV-List: New web group for San Francisco Bay Area Rvators --> RV-List message posted by: "RV6 Flyer" Kevin: On May 14th, another RV builder started a group in your area also. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NorCal-rvlist/?yguid=99675710 So far, there are 25 members and they are planning a get together on the 28th at one of their hangars at Reid-Hillview. I spent some time in Sunnyvale and have RV friends there. My RV was flying in and out of RHV every weekend during a 6 week business trip. I had a tie down at Vern Miller Aviation. Gary A. Sobek "My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell, 1,285 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA http://SoCAL_WVAF.rvproject.com ----Original Message Follows---- From: Kevin Hester Subject: RV-List: New web group for San Francisco Bay Area Rvators --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Hester Hi, (please ignore if not around SF/Silicon Valley) I've noticed a dearth of electronic regional resources for the San Francisco Bay Area - kinda odd since Van's shows a bunch of builders in this 'high-tech' area. I did find a web page for an old group, but it seems no longer active. To remedy this - I've created a small mailing list for our use - if you are in the Bay Area, please sign up for this low traffic mailing list at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bayarea-rvator/ The group description is as follows: This group provides a forum to complement the various great national RV mailing lists. Those lists provide a great forum for asking technical questions or general discussions. This forum is focused on local aspects of building or flying an RV. The email traffic should be relatively low. Example topics for this group: * Anyone want to trade bucking bar assistance (please email me off list)? * Anyone have an instrument hole cutter I can borrow? * Hey, this looks odd can someone take a look? * I'm at a major milestone in my project (i.e. 1st flight etc...) I'd like to invite ya'll to give my work a critical look. * I've got a hangar available for rent (yeah - we can all dream) EAA 62 provides a forum for this sort of stuff - but it is more of a monthly meeting sort of thing (with a potentially long drive for some of us) ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 07:13:42 PM PST US From: "Dana Overall" Subject: RV-List: Oshkosh & Beer.....forget Coke!! --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" Thought that subject line just might avoid an ol index finder delete!! Here's the question. The only time I have ever been to Oshkosh, other than last year, I have flown in. I alway carried the nessessary refreshments on board due to the lack of off site transportation. Can you bring beer though the gates to airplane camping?? Those who attended the beer and brats get together and SNF campsite, know where this might be going. Just stock up on the airplane lies!!!!! I'm planning on spend so much instrument money, I'll have to have refreshments to settle my nerves............ Dana Overall Richmond, KY RV-7 slider/fuselage http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 07:16:11 PM PST US From: Sam Buchanan Subject: Re: RV-List: Camlock installation - --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan kempthornes wrote: > > --> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes > > At 05:17 PM 6/11/2003 -0400, you wrote: > >--> RV-List message posted by: BrownTool@aol.com > > > >Why might you ask are they more expensive than say Cleco Pliers which they > >vaguely resemble - the answer is simple "Economy of Scale". We sell (as I > >assume is true with most other tool suppliers) thousands and thousands of > >Cleco > >Pliers every year. We sell less than a thousand Camloc Pliers per > >year. The more > >you manufacture the cheaper the cost. > > Michael, > > It is very, very difficult to get us rv'ers to understand the concept of > economy of scale, especially when it comes to engines for small aircraft. > > However, if you are selling a 1000 pairs a year and others are selling some > too - maybe that is high. When I took a shop class in an Industrial > Engineer program, we made pliers and other very fine tools. Hand made > pliers on an antique drop hammer would take less than ten minutes of > unskilled labor. Allowing that they cost $10 to make, wholesaler pays that > + $3 profit to the manufacturer. Now wholesaler sells to retailer for $13 > plus maybe 30% and some shipping so retailer pays maybe $19. Retailer > marks it up 40% to $27. ?? > > Now maybe one of us who wants to get filthy rich could set up shop and make > some to compete at a lower price?? Ok guys......let's see if we can run another industry supplier off the list! Maybe we can add Mike Brown to the other experts (like Scott McDaniels) who have left the list after enduring senseless abuse. Good grief, could we have a little civility, please? Sam Buchanan ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 07:48:53 PM PST US From: "Kyle Boatright" Subject: Re: RV-List: Oshkosh & Beer.....forget Coke!! --> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright" Dana, Of course you can bring as much beer through the gates as you can carry. There is a grocery store within a (lengthy) walk of the showplane camping area. The bus service can drop you off at the grocery store, although this is by request only, and they (generally) won't stop to pick you up on the return trip. The upside is that there is always someone at the grocery store who is a pilot and understands EXACTLY why you (and your 3 cases of beer) need a ride to the campground. You'd asked me to reply off-list if I was planning on attending Osh, and since I don't follow directions well, I'll answer "yes" on-list. By the way, I don't really carry so much campgear in the RV. It helps to have a buddy bring most of the big stuff in a SUV. KB ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dana Overall" Subject: RV-List: Oshkosh & Beer.....forget Coke!! > --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" > > Thought that subject line just might avoid an ol index finder delete!! > > Here's the question. The only time I have ever been to Oshkosh, other than > last year, I have flown in. I alway carried the nessessary refreshments on > board due to the lack of off site transportation. Can you bring beer though > the gates to airplane camping?? Those who attended the beer and brats get > together and SNF campsite, know where this might be going. > > Just stock up on the airplane lies!!!!! > > I'm planning on spend so much instrument money, I'll have to have > refreshments to settle my nerves............ > > > Dana Overall > Richmond, KY > RV-7 slider/fuselage > http://rvflying.tripod.com > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 07:49:18 PM PST US From: JusCash@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Graphics --> RV-List message posted by: JusCash@aol.com I would also like info on graphics provider. I'm having trouble finding a company willing to work with me on a design. Cash Copeland RV6 Solid White in need of color ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 07:53:46 PM PST US From: emrath Subject: Re: RV-List: AFP Boost Pump and Fuel Lines in RV-6 --> RV-List message posted by: emrath I'm about at this stage and could use some pictures of Van's set up. Can anyone put up pictures on Matt's photo page or send to me? I was thinking of using the standard fuel valve, drop a line to the floor, run it forward to the battery mount, but instead of mounting the battery here (mount battery on the forward side of the firewall using the -7 kit), the AFP package here, continue the line through the firewall with a bulkhead fitting, probably to the left of centerline. Then cover the floor, at least the center between the stiffeners, and the pump in the battery's normal location with a cover. Probably cover the rest of the floor and sandwich some insulation between this sub floor and the forward belly skin. Any thoughts about this? Really would like to see some pictures of the normal -7 mounting for this kit. Marty in Brentwood TN RV-6A flap mounting. ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 07:58:32 PM PST US From: "Steve J Hurlbut" Subject: Re: RV-List: Dynon EFIS questions --> RV-List message posted by: "Steve J Hurlbut" I haven't flown it at night, but I've turned it on at night. The intensity can be set very low. Perfect night viewing. The buttons to not need to be lit. When any button is pressed to menu appears above the buttons on the LCD screen. Bad things so far: Electrical connections and pitot, static connections on back are too close together. I had to grind a bit off of the electrical housing and really think about what nylon fitting to use. The heading currently does not work well. It is a simple software problem. The wiring includes a 9 pin connector for a lap top and data is uploaded very easily. The heading software is expected to be improved and released soon. Feel free to see mine. Its not flying yet but I can remove it from the panel and you can observe the gyro response. Steve Kingston, Ont RV7A ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Horton" Subject: RV-List: Dynon EFIS questions > --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton > > I am very tempted by the Dynon D-10 EFIS, but I have a few questions > before decide whether to order one. Dynon hasn't answered my e-mail > yet, and I am an impatient type, so I'll fire some of the questions > to the list. > > Night operation - as near as I can tell, there is no lighting for the > buttons, so they would only be lit by my cockpit flood lights. Is > that correct? Can the intensity of the display be set low enough for > night operation? Is the colour balance still OK at low intensity? > > Does anyone have anything bad to say? I have read several posts from > those how are flying, and everyone seems delirously happy. Is this a > universal feeling? > > What is the status of the heading function? > > If I order a unit, how much of a deposit is required at the time of > order, and when is the rest of the money required? > > I want to see one in person before I order. I live near Ottawa, > Ontario. Does anyone have one flying nearer than Green Bay, WI? If > so, would you be willing to take me up for a flight if I pay for the > gas? I've got some Air Canada frequent flyer points that might not > be worth much soon, so I might as well use them on a trip to see a > Dynon flying. Does anyone have one near to Ottawa who isn't flying > yet? Even a look at one powered up on the ground would be useful to > me. > > Thanks, > -- > Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) > Ottawa, Canada > http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/ > > ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 08:02:49 PM PST US From: "Steve J Hurlbut" Subject: Re: RV-List: Oshkosh & Beer.....forget Coke!! --> RV-List message posted by: "Steve J Hurlbut" Of course you can bring beer. Just bring REAL beer (i.e. Canadian made) and you'll be fine. Steve Up north, Ont ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dana Overall" Subject: RV-List: Oshkosh & Beer.....forget Coke!! > --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" > > Thought that subject line just might avoid an ol index finder delete!! > > Here's the question. The only time I have ever been to Oshkosh, other than > last year, I have flown in. I alway carried the nessessary refreshments on > board due to the lack of off site transportation. Can you bring beer though > the gates to airplane camping?? Those who attended the beer and brats get > together and SNF campsite, know where this might be going. > > Just stock up on the airplane lies!!!!! > > I'm planning on spend so much instrument money, I'll have to have > refreshments to settle my nerves............ > > > Dana Overall > Richmond, KY > RV-7 slider/fuselage > http://rvflying.tripod.com > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 08:02:52 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Adhesive for non-structural metal-to-metal From: j1j2h3@juno.com --> RV-List message posted by: j1j2h3@juno.com Dale I understand Gorilla Glue can only be used when one of the materials being fastened is wood, since it is the moisture in the wood that catalyzes it. Am I mistaken? Have you used it for metal to metal? Jim Hasper - RV-7 just starting empennage (on hold pending move to Tennessee) Do not archive On 06/04/03, DWENSING@aol.com wrote: (snip) You don't say what temperatures the application sees or if it needs chemical resistance (like gas or oil) or UV resistance...... but you could try a structural epoxy such as PC-7 sold in hardware stores or Gorilla Glue. Info available at www.gorillaglue.com or 1-800-966-3458. Dale Ensing ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 08:30:01 PM PST US From: "Dr. Leathers" Subject: Re: RV-List: Graphics --> RV-List message posted by: "Dr. Leathers" Try these guys, I've been using their stuff for years. They are terrific! Tell them Dr. Leathers sent you! Doc http://www.prismvinyl.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: RV-List: Graphics > --> RV-List message posted by: JusCash@aol.com > > I would also like info on graphics provider. I'm having trouble finding a > company willing to work with me on a design. > Cash Copeland > RV6 Solid White in need of color > > ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 09:02:33 PM PST US From: "Jim Jewell" Subject: Re: RV-List: Dynon EFIS questions --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" Hello Kevin and Larry, Larry has it right about the buttons, on touch to any one of the buttons and a strip of identifiers along the bottom of the screen lights up. These buttons seem to me to well thought out in regard to their functions and their tendency to be quite intuitive in use. The display can be turned down in several button push steps to almost off. The color balance is good. As with most of these types of screens very direct sunlight is the enemy. In this regard the D-10 is readable, brighter would be unreasonable in all other conditions. My opinion on this; In bright sunlight the eyes will tend to be outside. all other conditions this unit reads very well. With the sun low on your six I think you will still be able to read the unit. The heading function calibration of the compass requires that it is done in flight with a portable computer on board. I would think that it would be a two person job. If you don't have a complicated magnetic control panel environment you will not need the remote compass unit and calibration might not be all that difficult. I hear that some programming is in the works for the heading function but have no first hand knowledge. I would ask direct questions of them in this regard. they have been really good people to deal with and I'm sure they will level with you on any subject re their product. It seems that the majority of people that see the D-10 first hand like the unit. I have not heard of anyone sending one back for a refund yet. There is no down money asked for to my knowledge. They are still selling units as fast or faster than they can produce them. If you have a change of heart on delivery day they will move to the next name on the list. Please keep in mind that I do have the unit in hand. It is not installed in a flying aircraft as yet. I'm still doing wiring etc. My actual flying experience is next to none. That said, I still feel safe in saying that you will like Dynon's product when you get to play with it a bit. Jim in Kelowna ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Horton" Subject: RV-List: Dynon EFIS questions > --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton > > I am very tempted by the Dynon D-10 EFIS, but I have a few questions > before decide whether to order one. Dynon hasn't answered my e-mail > yet, and I am an impatient type, so I'll fire some of the questions > to the list. > > Night operation - as near as I can tell, there is no lighting for the > buttons, so they would only be lit by my cockpit flood lights. Is > that correct? Can the intensity of the display be set low enough for > night operation? Is the colour balance still OK at low intensity? > > Does anyone have anything bad to say? I have read several posts from > those how are flying, and everyone seems delirously happy. Is this a > universal feeling? > > What is the status of the heading function? > > If I order a unit, how much of a deposit is required at the time of > order, and when is the rest of the money required? > > I want to see one in person before I order. I live near Ottawa, > Ontario. Does anyone have one flying nearer than Green Bay, WI? If > so, would you be willing to take me up for a flight if I pay for the > gas? I've got some Air Canada frequent flyer points that might not > be worth much soon, so I might as well use them on a trip to see a > Dynon flying. Does anyone have one near to Ottawa who isn't flying > yet? Even a look at one powered up on the ground would be useful to > me. > > Thanks, > -- > Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) > Ottawa, Canada > http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/ > > ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:18 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: RV-List: Graphics --> RV-List message posted by: Cash, Try Kirby's Kustom Graphics. www.angelfire.com/oh2/kirbysgraphics/index.html He does a lot of Giant Scale model aerobatic planes and I believe he has worked with a few "real" planes. He also has about every aviation related logo known to man. The man behind the machine is Dennis Kirby, great guy. I'm getting ready to order stuff for my 35% Extra model. Darwin N. Barrie Chandler AZ ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: RV-List: Graphics > --> RV-List message posted by: JusCash@aol.com > > I would also like info on graphics provider. I'm having trouble finding a > company willing to work with me on a design. > Cash Copeland > RV6 Solid White in need of color > > ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 10:10:40 PM PST US From: "James E. Clark" Subject: RE: RV-List: Graphics --> RV-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" Have you tried "Freedom Graphics"?? We **FAXED** them the "back of napkin" design that Patty came up with. They emailed artwork and after a few iterations we said OK. All I provided was the fax, the fact that it was an RV6 and what colors to use where. We get many compliments on the look of the plane. James > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of JusCash@aol.com > Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 10:46 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Graphics > > > --> RV-List message posted by: JusCash@aol.com > > I would also like info on graphics provider. I'm having trouble > finding a > company willing to work with me on a design. > Cash Copeland > RV6 Solid White in need of color > > ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 10:15:00 PM PST US From: "Brett Morawski" Subject: RV-List: No license, no experience, building an RV-8 --> RV-List message posted by: "Brett Morawski" Everyone - I've just started building an RV-8 tail and have been following this list for a few months. My plan is to have the RV complete in 3 years. I currently have a grand total of 2 hours flying time -1 in a 172, 1 (sort of) in an SNJ and no training. My question is - how much experience is required to fly this plane safely? I'm not much of a risk-taker and will not fly this plane until I know it's at least a safe as getting in my truck to drive to work. Getting my license and a bunch of hours before starting to build is out of the question because I have no interest in flying if the only thing I'll ever be able to fly is a rented 172. Any and all suggestions will be appreciated. Sorry if this if a common question that has been addressed in the archives but I couldn't find any search strings that resulted in less than 1000 results. I am, however, proud of myself for so far not posting any questions on priming. Brett Morawski Toledo, OH RV-8 emp ________________________________ Message 57 ____________________________________ Time: 11:18:14 PM PST US From: "John Starn" Subject: Re: RV-List: No license, no experience, building an RV-8 --> RV-List message posted by: "John Starn" IF your building a -8 not an -8A I would recommend that you learn to fly in a tail dragger, cub, champ etc. and start now. Sounds like the sailor who figured he'd learn how to swim IF he ever fell off the boat. Know of a guy that spent years (15) building a Q-2 (?)tailwheel only to buy a C-140 when he sold his Q-2 project and found out that he will NEVER be comfortable landing a taildragger. Lots of hours with instructor but NO solo. He sold the C-140, bought a nose gear airplane but hasn't soloed it either as its going thru it's annual. Don't let your ego write a check your body/training can't cash. I also have 1 hr. in an SNJ (last Saturday) but I was along for the "ride". I did some steep turns, Dutch rolls, etc. but it was for fun not "training" and it's not in my log book (pilot was a CFI) . Good luck on your building, ask anything of the guys on the list. You will get honest answers and lots of help from those of us that have been there-done that. KABONG (GBA) Do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brett Morawski" Subject: RV-List: No license, no experience, building an RV-8 > --> RV-List message posted by: "Brett Morawski" > > Everyone - > > I've just started building an RV-8 tail and have been following this list for a few months. My plan is to have the RV complete in 3 years. I currently have a grand total of 2 hours flying time -1 in a 172, 1 (sort of) in an SNJ and no training. > > My question is - how much experience is required to fly this plane safely? I'm not much of a risk-taker and will not fly this plane until I know it's at least a safe as getting in my truck to drive to work. > > Getting my license and a bunch of hours before starting to build is out of the question because I have no interest in flying if the only thing I'll ever be able to fly is a rented 172. > > Any and all suggestions will be appreciated. Sorry if this if a common question that has been addressed in the archives but I couldn't find any search strings that resulted in less than 1000 results. I am, however, proud of myself for so far not posting any questions on priming. > > Brett Morawski > Toledo, OH > RV-8 emp > >