Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:38 AM - Re: Electrical question (Kevin Horton)
2. 04:14 AM - Beware the orange vest (Jim Nolan)
3. 05:43 AM - Re: RV-List (glenn.williams@businessacft.bombardier.com)
4. 05:49 AM - Re: Beware the orange vest (Larry Bowen)
5. 06:40 AM - Fuel Tank Dimple Dies (Don Harker)
6. 07:23 AM - Re: Electrical question (Phil Birkelbach)
7. 07:28 AM - Re: Fuel Tank Dimple Dies (Jack Textor)
8. 07:44 AM - bucking bars (rpmiller)
9. 07:54 AM - Re: bucking bars (Tommy Walker)
10. 08:08 AM - Re: Beware the orange vest (Pat Hatch)
11. 08:11 AM - Potential Virus (bruno)
12. 08:33 AM - Re: Electrical question (van Bladeren, Ron)
13. 08:36 AM - Re: bucking bars (Scott Bilinski)
14. 08:44 AM - Re: RV-List (LeastDrag93066@aol.com)
15. 09:00 AM - Re: bucking bars (Tedd McHenry)
16. 09:00 AM - RV accident (JDaniel343@aol.com)
17. 09:46 AM - Re: bucking bars (kempthornes)
18. 11:08 AM - Re: bucking bars (Chris W)
19. 11:10 AM - Re: Beware the orange vest (Jeff Point)
20. 11:11 AM - FW: HONOR the orange vest (VERY long) (KostaLewis)
21. 11:14 AM - Re: Fuel Tank Dimple Dies (Jeff Point)
22. 11:18 AM - FW: RV accident (KostaLewis)
23. 11:39 AM - Lycoming manuals (Dan Checkoway)
24. 12:05 PM - Re: bucking bars (Tedd McHenry)
25. 12:22 PM - Re: Lycoming manuals (RV6 Flyer)
26. 12:28 PM - Re: FW: HONOR the orange vest (VERY long) (SportAV8R@aol.com)
27. 12:32 PM - Re: HONOR the orange vest (VERY long) (Ron Walker)
28. 12:35 PM - Re: bucking bars (Jim Jewell)
29. 12:44 PM - Re: RV-List (Phil Birkelbach)
30. 12:47 PM - Re: FW: RV accident (Scott Bilinski)
31. 12:59 PM - Re: FW: RV accident (Tommy Walker)
32. 01:11 PM - Re: RV accident (Will & Lynda Allen)
33. 01:11 PM - AC rated switches for DC (was:Electrical question) (Bill Dube)
34. 01:46 PM - Re: RV accident (Scott Bilinski)
35. 01:48 PM - Re: Beware the orange vest (Rick Fogerson)
36. 02:02 PM - Re: RV accident (Bill VonDane)
37. 02:09 PM - Re: RV-List (Finn Lassen)
38. 02:10 PM - Re: FW: RV accident (Jim Oke)
39. 02:21 PM - Re: FW: RV accident (LarryRobertHelming)
40. 02:24 PM - Re: AC rated switches for DC (was:Electrical question) (Scott Bilinski)
41. 02:27 PM - Re: AC rated switches for DC (was:Electrical question) (Kevin Horton)
42. 02:27 PM - Re: FW: RV accident (Randy Lervold)
43. 02:35 PM - RV accident ()
44. 02:38 PM - Re: FW: RV accident (Rob Prior)
45. 02:57 PM - Re: FW: RV accident (Scott Bilinski)
46. 03:35 PM - Re: FW: RV accident (Brian Huffaker)
47. 03:37 PM - Re: FW: RV accident (Kevin Horton)
48. 03:39 PM - Re: RV-List (Kyle Boatright)
49. 03:56 PM - Re: Beware the orange vest (Gary & Carolyn Zilik)
50. 04:05 PM - Re: FW: RV accident (MSices)
51. 04:37 PM - Propeller Wanted (Kaeyew@aol.com)
52. 04:38 PM - Re: Beware the orange vest (Gert)
53. 04:40 PM - my view of accidents (michael michael)
54. 04:45 PM - turning back/practice/was RV accident (long) (James Freeman)
55. 04:47 PM - Re: Beware the orange vest (Cy Galley)
56. 04:48 PM - Re: Beware the orange vest (Gert)
57. 04:56 PM - Re: FW: RV accident (Paul Besing)
58. 05:16 PM - Re: FW: RV accident (Dan Checkoway)
59. 05:32 PM - Re: FW: RV accident (Greg Young)
60. 05:45 PM - Re: FW: RV accident (PASSPAT@aol.com)
61. 05:46 PM - Re: my view of accidents (Kyle Boatright)
62. 05:56 PM - report on jabiru 8cyl engine in RV6 (MICK MULLER)
63. 06:46 PM - Re: AC rated switches for DC (was:Electrical question) (Jim Cimino)
64. 06:54 PM - Re: FW: HONOR the orange vest (VERY long) (Tom Webster)
65. 06:56 PM - Re: FW: RV accident (RV6 Flyer)
66. 07:02 PM - Re: bucking bars (Charlie & Tupper England)
67. 07:28 PM - Re: FW: RV accident (Louis Willig)
68. 08:15 PM - Re: FW: RV accident (Patrick Kelley)
69. 08:30 PM - Wing Tip lockers... (John Starn)
70. 08:46 PM - Colorado RV crash (lucky macy)
71. 08:50 PM - Re: RV Flying, NOT an accident (delete if not interested) (KostaLewis)
72. 10:06 PM - Re: FW: RV accident (kempthornes)
73. 10:47 PM - Re: AC rated switches for DC (was:Electrical question) (Meketa)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Electrical question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorto1537@rogers.com>
>--> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes <kempthornes@earthlink.net>
>
>#139 Oct 97 "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" "A Switch is a Switch or is it?"
>
>Check out this very relevant email from good old Electric Bob (in the
>archive) It is a pretty complete guide to switch selection, ratings etc.
>
>K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne
That part of the archives seems to be down now, but the full article
is on Bob's web site. See:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/swtchrat.pdf
Basically he says that manufacturers intend that the switches can be
used in a large variety of AC and DC voltages, with different amp
ratings depending on the application. The manufacturer data will
have big tables of rated amps, but there is no way to put all this
data on the side of the switch.
For 14v DC applications, Bob says it is safe to use the same amperage
as the 125v AC rating. He also says not to buy cheap switches (i.e.
less than $5 in 1997 prices).
--
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
Message 2
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| Subject: | Beware the orange vest |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Nolan" <jimnolan@insightbb.com>
Listers,
Thought I'd share my most recent experiences with the orange vested angles
from Oshkosh.
Two years ago, on departure from Oshkosh. A orange vested inexperienced volunteer
tried to stage me directly behind the tri-motor on takeoff. When I shook
my head NO, the guy literally jumped up and down and threw a fit because I
wouldn't follow his orders. I pointed to the tri-motor revving his engines for
takeoff but he still didn't get the point. Point was, there's a whole lot of
prop blast coming from those propellers and it's still my airplane.
Last year on base to final I had two Mooney Mites come inside of me while turning
base to final. I guess they couldn't slow down like my RV4 could. Since
I had a biplane in front of me I couldn't speed up anyway. The Mooney guy nearest
me had eyes the size of saucers. So here we are, three airplanes on short
final for 36. I informed the tower that the RV4 would land on the taxiway to
the right of 36. After I had rolled out, the tower came on the phone an told me
to take any turnoff I wanted and taxi across the runway and a orange vested
angle would help me to a parking spot. The trouble with this picture is, I needed
the tower's help back when I was on final for 36. I didn't need him to give
me parking directions.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not blasting the Orange vests at Oshkosh. I'm just
letting you know that when you follow someone else's directions at Oshkosh, you're
putting your welfare in the hands of a sometimes inexperienced volunteer
that won't be there when you have to repair the damage to your aircraft when things
go wrong.
Jim Nolan
N444JN
Message 3
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06/30/2003 07:12:28 AM
--> RV-List message posted by: glenn.williams@businessacft.bombardier.com
You would not be the "builder" In which case you will have to use an A&P or
I.A. mechanic to perform the conditional inspection. If the aircraft is
more than 51% complete. That is per the FAR's. To be the "Builder" you must
complete more than 51% of the project and sign a sworn affidavit saying you
built more than 51% of the project. Some people lie and are issued the
repairmans certificate, you wouldnt would you?
regards
Glenn Williams
A&P
Fort Worth, Tx.
If you are in Texas let me know.
do not archive
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Beware the orange vest |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@bowenaero.com>
The organge vest talk reminds me of something I observe every time I go to
OSH or SNF. Run ups -- There seems to be no good place to do one. Every
time I see a pilot try to do one, someone is waving frantically trying to
get him/her to stop. What's the policy on this and what's the reality?
I've never flown to OSH or SNF as PIC, so forgive me if this is a stupid
question.
-
Larry Bowen
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
Message 5
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| Subject: | Fuel Tank Dimple Dies |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Don Harker" <dpharker@worldnet.att.net>
Have read mixed reviews on using "special" full tank dimple dies from
Cleveland.
Can anyone share their experience good or bad?
Thanks
DonH
RV-7A Wings
Gurnee IL
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Electrical question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Phil Birkelbach" <phil@petrasoft.net>
Wayne has a good idea. This would also let you run two fuses which would
let you use smaller wire (I know you already ran the wire and it was 12 AWG
right?)
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Canopy
http://www.myrv7.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne R. Couture" <commando@cox-internet.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Electrical question
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Wayne R. Couture"
<commando@cox-internet.com>
>
> Doug,
> Use a Double Pole, Single Throw (DPST) switch and power each light
from
> one side of the switch!
>
> Wayne
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Doug Weiler" <dougweil@pressenter.com>
> To: "RV List" <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RV-List: Electrical question
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Weiler" <dougweil@pressenter.com>
> >
> > Fellow Listers:
> >
> > Here's a question for the electrical experts out there...
> >
> > My newly flown RV-4 has two wing-tip landing lights. These are the
> > Duckworth lights and I have 100W bulbs in them. By my calculations
these
> > two lamps draw about 14 amps total (they are wired thru one switch and a
> 20
> > amp fuse.) Today I had the switch fail. It got hot and started putting
> out
> > very bad fumes and the terminal connections even melted (the fuse did
not
> > blow). Anyway I bought all my switches from American Champion (they are
> > installed in their Citabrias). I specified that this particular landing
> > light switch should be rated for 20 amps. But it failed after 20 hours
on
> > the airplane. But when I removed the damaged switch, I see that there
are
> > no specs on it at all.
> >
> > The other switches I have installed are different and have specs
engraved
> on
> > the side. Here's what it reads:
> >
> > 10A 250V AC
> > 15A 125V AC
> > 3/4 HP 250V AC
> > 1/2 HP 125V AC
> > 4.2 AL 125V AC
> >
> > It is a Cutler Hammer switch but I cannot find any model number on it.
> >
> >
> > So my question is: Do you think this switch would handle a 14 amp load
of
> > my landing lights?
> >
> >
> > Doug Weiler
> > N22DW RV-4 (26 hours)
> >
> >
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Fuel Tank Dimple Dies |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jack Textor" <jack@personnelincorporated.com>
Don,
I think they were better than the regular dies. Seemed to leave a fraction
of space for the Proseal
Jack
Message 8
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--> RV-List message posted by: "rpmiller" <rpmiller@1usa.net>
What bucking bars do you use when. I have an avery 615 and one that is like an
avery 620 and then a cheap body work dolly. I'm curious what other people use
and where.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: bucking bars |
Seal-Send-Time: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 09:58:09 -0500
--> RV-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" <twsurveyor@msn.com>
It's been my experience that the biggest and heaviest one that will fit in the
bucking area is the best bet!
Tommy
6A finishing
Ridgetop, TN
----- Original Message -----
From: rpmiller
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 9:36 AM
Subject: RV-List: bucking bars
--> RV-List message posted by: "rpmiller" <rpmiller@1usa.net>
What bucking bars do you use when. I have an avery 615 and one that is like
an avery 620 and then a cheap body work dolly. I'm curious what other people
use and where.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Beware the orange vest |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Pat Hatch" <pat_hatch@msn.com>
I don't know what the official policy is but you want to certainly plan
ahead for it. You will be expected to have completed it prior to arriving
at the runway. I usually wait until I get to the line of departing
airplanes, swing the tail around where I will not blast anyone and do my
runup. I have done it while riding the brakes because there was no line.
Not a good idea but better than not doing it at all.
Pat Hatch
RV-4
RV-6
RV-7 QB (Building)
Vero Beach, FL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@bowenaero.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Beware the orange vest
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@bowenaero.com>
>
> The organge vest talk reminds me of something I observe every time I go to
> OSH or SNF. Run ups -- There seems to be no good place to do one. Every
> time I see a pilot try to do one, someone is waving frantically trying to
> get him/her to stop. What's the policy on this and what's the reality?
>
> I've never flown to OSH or SNF as PIC, so forgive me if this is a stupid
> question.
>
> -
> Larry Bowen
> Larry@BowenAero.com
> http://BowenAero.com
>
>
Message 11
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--> RV-List message posted by: bruno <rv4@videotron.ca>
To everyone on the list
If you received a file with the following
attachment ,be careful as it contains a virus if you open it.
There are some nasty peoples in this world
Bruno
------------------------------------------------
Time: 11:22:06 PM PST US
From: <mphill@gcctv.com>
Subject: RV-List: Re: Movie
--> RV-List message posted by: <mphill@gcctv.com>
"Please see the attached zip file for details."
Message 12
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| Subject: | Electrical question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "van Bladeren, Ron" <rwv@nwnatural.com>
Definitely need a switch rated for DC amps. I would install two of these,
(one in each light circuit so you can turn them on individually). They're
rated at 21A/14VDC, sealed and the ones I got appear to be good quality
(have not tried them yet???):
https://www.delcity.net/tstore/servlet/pagebuilder?frame=catalog_browse&pare
ntid=7352&itemnumber=73274. Good online order service.....
Ron.
-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Weiler [mailto:dougweil@pressenter.com]
Subject: RV-List: Electrical question
--> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Weiler" <dougweil@pressenter.com>
Fellow Listers:
Here's a question for the electrical experts out there...
My newly flown RV-4 has two wing-tip landing lights. These are the
Duckworth lights and I have 100W bulbs in them. By my calculations these
two lamps draw about 14 amps total (they are wired thru one switch and a 20
amp fuse.) Today I had the switch fail. It got hot and started putting out
very bad fumes and the terminal connections even melted (the fuse did not
blow). Anyway I bought all my switches from American Champion (they are
installed in their Citabrias). I specified that this particular landing
light switch should be rated for 20 amps. But it failed after 20 hours on
the airplane. But when I removed the damaged switch, I see that there are
no specs on it at all.
The other switches I have installed are different and have specs engraved on
the side. Here's what it reads:
10A 250V AC
15A 125V AC
3/4 HP 250V AC
1/2 HP 125V AC
4.2 AL 125V AC
It is a Cutler Hammer switch but I cannot find any model number on it.
So my question is: Do you think this switch would handle a 14 amp load of
my landing lights?
Doug Weiler
N22DW RV-4 (26 hours)
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: bucking bars |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
As far as bucking bars go, there was local guy who had a custom one made.
Probably expensive, but, worth it I would think. He made it out of a VERY
heavy material. It was half the size of a large bucking bar but the same
weight. Sorry I dont remember what the material was.
At 09:58 AM 6/30/03 -0500, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" <twsurveyor@msn.com>
>
>It's been my experience that the biggest and heaviest one that will fit in
>the bucking area is the best bet!
>
>Tommy
>6A finishing
>Ridgetop, TN
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: rpmiller
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 9:36 AM
> Subject: RV-List: bucking bars
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "rpmiller" <rpmiller@1usa.net>
>
> What bucking bars do you use when. I have an avery 615 and one that is
>like an avery 620 and then a cheap body work dolly. I'm curious what other
>people use and where.
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 14
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--> RV-List message posted by: LeastDrag93066@aol.com
In a message dated 06/30/2003 5:45:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
glenn.williams@businessacft.bombardier.com writes:
(Stuff Cut)
> To be the "Builder" you must
> complete more than 51% of the project and sign a sworn affidavit saying you
> built more than 51% of the project. Some people lie and are issued the
> repairmans certificate, you wouldnt would you?
>
> regards
> Glenn Williams
> A&P
> Fort Worth, Tx.
>
> If you are in Texas let me know.
>
> do not archive
>
Hi All,
10 people can build 51% of the homebuilt.
I believe the FAA normally only issues one Aircraft Repairman Certificate to
that aircraft.
If that is correct, the FAA doesn't determine the builder. They determine
who is qualified, and most likely to be able, to exercise the rights of the
aircraft repairman certificate.
From my experience with the local FAA office, as the sole builder with the 40
hours of test time flown off, the aircraft repairmen certificate was NOT just
given to me. They wanted to satisfy themselves that I had the knowledge of
my aircraft and the FAR's to allow them to issue the certificate.
Jim Ayers
RV-3 N47RV sn 50 First flight 1988
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: bucking bars |
--> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
> What bucking bars do you use when.
I have an Avery 620, which I find very useful. All my other bucking bars are
home made from scrap steel. Acting on a tip from a fellow builder, I made one
that is simply a block of steel whose size and shape is about mid way between a
Zippo lighter and a cigarette pack. It's very handy for getting in tight
places, and has enough mass for -3 rivets.
I polish the faces and round the corners on my belt sander (but with a
different belt than I use for aluminum).
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
Message 16
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--> RV-List message posted by: JDaniel343@aol.com
On Saturday afternoon after the airshow at the Rocky Mountain Regional Fly-In,
an RV-6 that had been at the fly-in took off from Ft. Collins downtown airport
an experienced engine failure and trying to turnback to the airport crashed.
the 2 persons on board died. From the pictures there appeared to be no fire.
I believe the person that owned and flying the plane was from Austin, TX. I have
a name but am not 100% sure, so will not post it.
Most of the information I recieved about the accident came from a TV news crew
who was at the Longmont airport later that evening. I did my best to inform them
about experimental aircraft, since that was what they were focusing on.
On the same topic another aircraft over by Colorado Springs crashed, and the pilot
killed about ten minutes after the RV accident. I believe it was a Skybolt.
A bad day for aviation and experimental aircraft.
The RMRFI was a big success despite the tragedies.
John Danielson
RV-6
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: bucking bars |
--> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes <kempthornes@earthlink.net>
Really good prices on bucking bars at the fly market at Oshkosh.
K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne
RV6-a N7HK flying!
PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA)
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: bucking bars |
--> RV-List message posted by: Chris W <chrisw3@cox.net>
Scott Bilinski wrote:
> As far as bucking bars go, there was local guy who had a custom one made.
> Probably expensive, but, worth it I would think. He made it out of a VERY
> heavy material. It was half the size of a large bucking bar but the same
> weight. Sorry I dont remember what the material was.
According to a handy reference I found on the web somewhere the only materials
that are twice as dense as steel are Tungsten Carbide, Tantalum, Gold, Uranium,
Alpha phase Plutonium, Platinum and Iridium. I suspect a bucking bar made of any
of those would be pretty expensive.
do not archive
--
Chris Woodhouse
3147 SW 127th St.
Oklahoma City, OK 73170
405-691-5206
chrisw@programmer.net
N35 20.492'
W97 34.342'
"They that can give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Beware the orange vest |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
Jim does have a good point- we do sometimes make errors when directing
people around. Most of the time they are minor and correctable with a
180 turn or something similar. Think of the parking volunteers like you
do ATC- if a controller tries to vector you into a Tstorm cell or some
such thing, you obviously don't do it because it would be unsafe. But
on the other hand, if ATC tells you to "turn left to XXX and expedite"
and there is nothing but blue sky in that direction, there is probably a
good reason for the request. You don't have the big picture of other
traffic like the controller does. A prime Oshkosh example of this is
when an RV is taxing back into the parking area via papa-1, and an
orange vest pulls him off the taxiway into the warbird area and stops
him. Usually that is because there are Mustangs etc. coming out from
the other end, which you the pilot is not aware of. Another good one is
that sometimes the departure runway gets changed at the last minute,
especially during the post-airshow exodus. Sometimes the change is not
put onto ATIS in a timely manner, so we may be sending you in a
different direction that the ATIS runway.
In short, if an orange vest directs you to do something which is unsafe,
by all means do not do it. On the other hand if he directs you to do
something which seems odd to you but is not unsafe, please do it in a
timely manner. There is probably a good reason for it, and the 50
airplanes in line behind you don't appreciate it when you stop and try
to argue the point.
Jeff Point
RV-6 FWF
Milwaukee WI
Jim Nolan wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Nolan" <jimnolan@insightbb.com>
>
>Listers,
> Thought I'd share my most recent experiences with the orange vested angles
from Oshkosh.
> Two years ago, on departure from Oshkosh. A orange vested inexperienced volunteer
tried to stage me directly behind the tri-motor on takeoff. When I shook
my head NO, the guy literally jumped up and down and threw a fit because I
wouldn't follow his orders. I pointed to the tri-motor revving his engines for
takeoff but he still didn't get the point. Point was, there's a whole lot of
prop blast coming from those propellers and it's still my airplane.
> Last year on base to final I had two Mooney Mites come inside of me while
turning base to final. I guess they couldn't slow down like my RV4 could. Since
I had a biplane in front of me I couldn't speed up anyway. The Mooney guy nearest
me had eyes the size of saucers. So here we are, three airplanes on short
final for 36. I informed the tower that the RV4 would land on the taxiway to
the right of 36. After I had rolled out, the tower came on the phone an told
me to take any turnoff I wanted and taxi across the runway and a orange vested
angle would help me to a parking spot. The trouble with this picture is, I needed
the tower's help back when I was on final for 36. I didn't need him to give
me parking directions.
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not blasting the Orange vests at Oshkosh. I'm just
letting you know that when you follow someone else's directions at Oshkosh, you're
putting your welfare in the hands of a sometimes inexperienced volunteer
that won't be there when you have to repair the damage to your aircraft when
things go wrong.
> Jim Nolan
>N444JN
>
>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | HONOR the orange vest (VERY long) |
--> RV-List message posted by: "KostaLewis" <mikel@dimensional.com>
Jim: excellent post, and quite timely, by the way. But I'm afraid I'm
gonna have to kick your ass around a little bit. Put on the Nomex, pal.
Where should I start. Introductions, I suppose, not that I'm anyone
special; just a VOLUNTEER. In the OSH operation, I am known as Antique
Denver. I help run things down at Vintage (Antique/Classic) (Hi,
Wheeler; how's it going?). I am pretty inexperienced; I only have 15
straight years of VOLUNTEERING. Those people in my area that are on an
intersection or point, telling you where to go, jumping up and down, of
which I am one, by the way, average 10-12 years of experience. Those on
the intersections need between 3-5 years of doing other things before we
sic them on an intersection. And they are all VOLUNTEERS, by the way. We
have many of the same people coming back year after year. Us upper dogs
meet at least once a year BEFORE OSH on our own time and money to hash
out what we are going to do different to improve things FOR YOU at the
upcoming OSH. We run a pretty tight ship. And we wear ORANGE VESTS. This
is not our full time job. We have brick layers, lawyers, nuclear
scientists, dock workers, doctors, etc. and from many different
countries. Did I mention we were VOLUNTEERS?
PINK shirts: those are folks from the FAA. Controllers from around the
country that VOLUNTEER to direct traffic at then the worlds busiest
airport. THE WORLDS BUSIEST AIRPORT. And there is at least a two year
waiting list for the jobs there. Those are the people that are staging
you on the runway and jumping up and down when you don't do what they
tell you to do (more on that later). It IS their FULL TIME JOB and they
DO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING.
Lets look at your note:
>Last year on base to final I had two Mooney Mites come inside of me
while >turning base to final. I guess they couldn't slow down like my
RV4 could.
Well, not quite true.
>Since I had a biplane in front of me I couldn't speed up anyway. The
Mooney >guy nearest me had eyes the size of saucers. So here we are,
three >airplanes on short final for 36. I informed the tower that the
RV4 would >land on the taxiway to the right of 36.
You informed the tower. You INFORMED the tower?? And then landed on a
TAXIWAY you were not approved to land on? Yikes. And I think I saw you
come in. You fly a white RV-4 with I think red and silver trim. How do I
know? You may have heard someone swear at you on the radio. It was the
down and dirty T-6 you cut out of the pattern. If that wasn't you, it
did happen. Why? Because he decided to land where he was not directed to
land. Set up for a midair. And which taxiway did you choose to land on?
36R is a taxiway assigned as a RUNWAY during convention. There IS a
taxiway in our area that is usually littered with airplanes and people,
green machines and bikes. Every year and I mean EVERY year someone is
not doing what they were TOLD to do and LANDS ON THE TAXIWAY. I have
learned to stand with my back to the wind and watch. So, with everything
seeming to go to hell on final, what SHOULD you have done? Exactly what
you would have done at ANY airport when things are going to hell: GO
AROUND. Much better than landing where you want because you think it is
a good idea. What was behind you???
OK: things get busy. You ARE the PIC. Things sometimes don't go as
planned. You STILL need to be LOOKING AROUND for other airplanes and
FLYING YOURS. YOU need to keep yourself safe. But: IF YOU HAVEN'T DONE
IT BEFORE, DON'T DO IT AT OSH is a pretty good rule to follow. How many
times have you landed on the taxiway at your home airport because the
guy on the runway is taking forever to clear? My guess is none. You went
around.
>After I had rolled out, the tower came on the phone and told me to take
any turnoff I wanted and taxi across the runway and a orange vested
angle would help me to a parking spot.
What is an orange vested angle?
Well, I guess you have your finger on how much experience everyone has.
How do you know he was inexperienced? Lets talk experience for a minute
here. See the above paragraph for experience. In course of the
convention, the VOLUNTEERS that work your airplane will have directed
around between 10,000 and 12,000 airplanes. One of every seven airplanes
in the United States. And you will have parked and taxied around exactly
ONE. The reason OSH works as well as it does, and it works VERY well, is
that the VOLUNTEERS DO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING. Do they make mistakes?
You bet. They do this one week a year. The PINK shirts do it year
'round.
>Two years ago, on departure from Oshkosh. A orange vested inexperienced
>volunteer tried to stage me directly behind the tri-motor on
takeoff......
Well, again, you are confusing PINK shirts (the FAA VOLUNTEERS the
man/woman the tower and runway) and the ORANGE vested VOLUNTEERS (angle)
that direct you on the ground. The PINK shirts stage you on the runway;
the ORANGE vested people direct you once you are OFF the runway. They
will NEVER direct you onto the active runway.
If someone is jumping up and down, it is probably because you are doing
something stupid. Or there is something going on around you that YOU
CAN'T SEE. In the air and on the ground the VOLUNTEERS can see things
you can't. Like the time I was jumping up and down to get a Cub to move
because the Falco behind him had lost its brakes and was coming his way.
He didn't understand what I was trying to do but he moved and we saved
two airplanes.
>Don't get me wrong, I'm not blasting the Orange vests at Oshkosh. I'm
just letting you know that when you follow someone else's directions at
Oshkosh, you're putting your welfare in the hands of a sometimes
inexperienced volunteer that won't be there when you have to repair the
damage to your aircraft when things go wrong.
Well, but you are blasting them. Since you seem to know so much, you
must have VOLUNTEERED a LOT there. Lets look: ah, Noland
. Nope; not on our VOLUNTEER list. Maybe you work with Gert and his
crowd of VERY EXPERIENCED VOLUNTEERS. But I'll bet not. How do I know?
Because of your post.
Come on down to Vintage and talk to Anne and she will sign you up and
put you to work. Course you will be INEXPERIENCED but will gain a lot
right away. First, you will be put in a class that lasts about an HOUR
to get the fine details about how to run a bike and park airplanes. Then
you'll shadow someone EXPERIENCED for a day, sometimes more, learning
from them. Then, if you are good enough, you will be set out on your own
to taxi and park airplanes. The first day you will pee your pants
several times as you direct $200,000 worth of really cool airplanes at
each other. And then you can see that when things go bad on the field or
in the air it is because SOMEONE IS NOT FOLLOWING INSTRUCTIONS. Then you
will be jumping up and down to get someone's attention. There are pilots
that would taxi up a tree if you directed them to because they have been
around long enough to know that you TRUST YOUR BIKER. He can see things
you can't. Like your wing tips, by the way. 2 feet clearance from
wingtip to wingtip. Old Staggerwing pilots are among the best.
Then you will get yelled at by someone that thinks they know more than
you. Or someone that knows Tom. Or Paul. Or whoever. We have a name for
those: IKT or IKP. Get yelled at? But you are just a VOLUNTEER. Why
would someone yell at you? Ha!. I have a sign on my hat that states
"Don't yell at me; I'm a VOLUNTEER" given to me by another VOLUNTEER
that witnessed me getting my bangs blown back by a pilot that knew it
all.
Do things always go as planned? Of course not. Does everyone have the
same level of experience? Same answer. Do airplanes get bent up a lot
there? No. We had three paint-trading bumps last year and two were
because the pilots were not paying attention. And EAA did pay for the
repairs, by the way. The worst one was a broken nav light glass.
Finally (!): attitude. If you come to OSH thinking you know how things
are supposed to go, come on over and VOLUNTEER and show us inexperienced
folks how it's done. The reason OSH works at all is the level of skill
and service we have in the VOLUNTEERS that keep showing up every year.
And I will defend them to the hilt because I work with them. For that
week, they are my best friends. And will be yours, too, because they
will safely get you there and parked to enjoy the Greatest Show On
Earth.
So: DON'T BADMOUTH MY VOLUNTEERS. They are the best. Come on over and
try it out yourself. And if you feel the need, come over and punch me in
the nose or give me a good yelling at. I'm good at snappy comebacks,
although you wouldn't know it by this post. I'll be there 3 days before
you get there and will be there 2 days after you leave, working from
about 7 am to about 9 pm and loving it. Good thing it is a VOLUNTEER
job; they couldn't pay me enough to do it.
By the way, Larry: running up: you should be doing your check list (you
do have a check list, don't you) as you taxi along, BEING MINDFUL OF
WHAT IS GOING ON AROUND YOU. Then, at some point, angle your airplane on
the taxiway tail towards the runway and away from other airplanes and
the crowd and do your runup there. Just like the Big Boys. My Go Flying
checklist is memorized and written and I say it out loud so everything
gets done before I hit the white stripe.
IMHO
Michael
Antique Denver
Also, driver of N232 Suzie Q
Come on over and visit; I'm usually easy to find.
Oh, yeah. The derogatory term ANGLE, really pissed me off. I believe
your insinuation is that is the simplest of forms. One step up from a
line. Shame on you.
Archive this; they need to know
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Tank Dimple Dies |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
Definately worth the money (especially if you can borrow them for free!)
They make a dimple 7 or 8 thousandths deeper, the space of which is
taken up by proseal, making a smooth final rivet. If you use normal
dies, the rivets will sit proud of the surface a few thous because of
the proseal. You should be able to borrow a set from someone, or your
EAA chapter might consider buying them for the tool library.
Jeff Point
RV-6 FWF
Milwaukee WI
Don Harker wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Don Harker" <dpharker@worldnet.att.net>
>
>
>Have read mixed reviews on using "special" full tank dimple dies from
>Cleveland.
>Can anyone share their experience good or bad?
>
>Thanks
>DonH
>
>RV-7A Wings
>Gurnee IL
>
>
>
>
Message 22
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--> RV-List message posted by: "KostaLewis" <mikel@dimensional.com>
>On Saturday afternoon after the airshow at the Rocky Mountain Regional
Fly->In, an RV-6 that had been at the fly-in took off from Ft. Collins
downtown >airport an experienced engine failure and trying to turnback
to the airport
>crashed.
Sounded like and looked like a stall-spin accident. Things to learn:
practice your EMERGENCY procedures often; know them by heart. It may
keep yours beating. FLY THE AIRPLANE. And in most instances, DON'T TURN
BACK. Land straight ahead. Search the Archives for this discussion.
>On the same topic another aircraft over by Colorado Springs crashed,
and >the pilot killed about ten minutes after the RV accident. I believe
it was >a Skybolt...
Yes, who, according to the reports, was an experienced pilot, flying
someone else's airplane, and did A ROLL on takeoff 300 feet off the
ground. Didn't go well, as they usually don't. Things to learn: if
you're good, you don't have to show off. Low level aerobatics are OK for
Sean and Patty, not for us goons.
This is all hearsay and conjecture.
Fly safe.
Michael
Message 23
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| Subject: | Lycoming manuals |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
I recently got an overhauled IO-360-A1B6 from AeroSport Power. It came with
an operator's manual, but I'd like to have any and all associated
parts/service/overhaul manuals for the engine.
Builder's Bookstore carries the overhaul manual, so I'll probably get it
there (unless there's a cheaper source out there?). Just curious if you
guys think there's enough value in the Lycoming original with revision
service to warrant paying $80 as opposed to $33 for a one-time reprint. How
often do revisions come out, and how "beefy" do they tend to be? Wouldn't
anything significant usually be accompanied by an SB or AD?
Also, is there a separate parts guide/manual, or is that covered by the
overhaul manual?
Thanks in advance,
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
Message 24
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|
| Subject: | Re: bucking bars |
--> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
> I suspect a bucking bar made of any
> of those would be pretty expensive.
Depleted uranium would be a good choice, and probably not really expensive.
But I don't know any retail sources.
(Steel works fine!)
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Lycoming manuals |
--> RV-List message posted by: "RV6 Flyer" <rv6_flyer@hotmail.com>
The overhaul manual does not contain the Service Bulletins, Instructions,
and letters. That use to cost $100 for the one foot thick stack of papers
and came with a 1 year update service. I pay $35 each year to keep my
subscription current. Was not aware of any revision to the overhaul manual
that was not covered by the SB, Instructions, or Letters. The overhaul
manual does not have part numbers in it to order parts. The parts manual
also do not normally have part numbers for the pieces that make up the
accessories. There is a separate overhaul and parts manuals for the Bendix
Mags, carb, and fuel injection.
The parts manual is a separate book. El Reno Aviation has a price list of
parts for Lycoming that I recommend getting as it is free but you still need
the parts manual or your model / serial number to talk to them on the phone
to look up the correct part number.
From time to time you can find Lycoming Overhaul and parts manuals on E-Bay.
Just search for Lycoming.
Gary A. Sobek
"My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell,
1,297 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA
http://SoCAL_WVAF.rvproject.com
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
Subject: RV-List: Lycoming manuals
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
I recently got an overhauled IO-360-A1B6 from AeroSport Power. It came with
an operator's manual, but I'd like to have any and all associated
parts/service/overhaul manuals for the engine.
Builder's Bookstore carries the overhaul manual, so I'll probably get it
there (unless there's a cheaper source out there?). Just curious if you
guys think there's enough value in the Lycoming original with revision
service to warrant paying $80 as opposed to $33 for a one-time reprint. How
often do revisions come out, and how "beefy" do they tend to be? Wouldn't
anything significant usually be accompanied by an SB or AD?
Also, is there a separate parts guide/manual, or is that covered by the
overhaul manual?
Thanks in advance,
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: HONOR the orange vest (VERY long) |
--> RV-List message posted by: SportAV8R@aol.com
In a message dated 06/30/2003 2:12:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
mikel@dimensional.com writes:
> Michael
> Antique Denver
> Also, driver of N232 Suzie Q
> Come on over and visit; I'm usually easy to find.
>
> Oh, yeah. The derogatory term ANGLE, really pissed me off. I believe
> your insinuation is that is the simplest of forms. One step up from a
> line. Shame on you.
>
Whoa, there, Michael. Your reply was excellent, but no need to rub it in.
Doubtless by now the original poster realizes he can't spell "Angel" on three
out of three tries and feels terrible about it ;-)
-Bill
do not archive
because it's unimportant, that's why
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: HONOR the orange vest (VERY long) |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ron Walker" <ron@walker.net>
>After I had rolled out, the tower came on the phone and told me to take
any turnoff I wanted and taxi across the runway and a orange vested
angle would help me to a parking spot.
What is an orange vested angle?
I think perhaps this is a typo and he meant "ANGEL" ... as in "guardian".
Ron
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: bucking bars |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell@telus.net>
I have a home made bucking bar that I inherited from ?! It is very heavy for
it's convenient size and shape.
I suspect it is made from leaded steel or depleted Uranium.
Apparently steel can be alloyed with high lead content. I am not a
metallurgist but someone else out there might be able to supply more
information.
For supplies of materials suitable for making bucking bars at home, a trip
to an industrial steel supply or fabricating shop is worth the effort. Ask
for small cut off scraps and most likely you will be led to the scrap box at
the business end of the shearing machine. A donation to the 'coffee' fund
got me a arm load of random sized and shaped potential bucking bars, a
smile, and an invite to come back again any time.
Jim in Kelowna
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tedd McHenry" <tedd@vansairforce.org>
Subject: Re: RV-List: bucking bars
> --> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
>
> > I suspect a bucking bar made of any
> > of those would be pretty expensive.
>
> Depleted uranium would be a good choice, and probably not really
expensive.
> But I don't know any retail sources.
>
> (Steel works fine!)
>
> Tedd McHenry
> Surrey, BC
>
>
Message 29
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Phil Birkelbach" <phil@petrasoft.net>
You shouldn't have any problem registering the airplane. The FAA doesn't
care that 51% of the plane was built by one person or 50 as long as all the
persons involved built it for their own 'Education or Recreation.' You
simply need to prove to the DAR that the airplane was built by an amateur.
If you buy it make sure that you get the logs and photos from the guy that
did the work and anything else that would be handy to show the DAR that it
was not commercially built.
Now the repairman certificate is another matter. You will probably not be
able to get that.
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Canopy
http://www.myrv7.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <smoothweasel@juno.com>
Subject: RV-List: RV-List
> --> RV-List message posted by: smoothweasel@juno.com
>
> I am considering bying a RV-4 that is about ready
> to fly. Would I be able to get this plane regesterd considering that I
> would not have been the builder of "51%" of it? What if the previous
> owner is unwilling to regester it in his name. I am usuming that there
> is a way to do this because what if a owner of a 99% completed kit would
> die?
>
> Considering RV-4
>
> The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
> Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
>
>
Message 30
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--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Actually this topic is so important that, I, would like to discuss it here
again even though it is in the archives.
My question is with the engine out at what altitude can you complete a 180?
I asked Mike Seager during my training and he basically said "dont" and
keep the heading change to no more than 45 degrees. BUT, I would still like
to know how much altitude you lose doing a 180 turn with the engine out.
This is something I will find out when I fly next month.......Of course at
altitude.
>Sounded like and looked like a stall-spin accident. Things to learn:
>practice your EMERGENCY procedures often; know them by heart. It may
>keep yours beating. FLY THE AIRPLANE. And in most instances, DON'T TURN
>BACK. Land straight ahead. Search the Archives for this discussion.
>
>>On the same topic another aircraft over by Colorado Springs crashed,
>and >the pilot killed about ten minutes after the RV accident. I believe
>it was >a Skybolt...
>
>Yes, who, according to the reports, was an experienced pilot, flying
>someone else's airplane, and did A ROLL on takeoff 300 feet off the
>ground. Didn't go well, as they usually don't. Things to learn: if
>you're good, you don't have to show off. Low level aerobatics are OK for
>Sean and Patty, not for us goons.
>
>This is all hearsay and conjecture.
>
>Fly safe.
>
>Michael
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 31
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Seal-Send-Time: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 15:02:50 -0500
--> RV-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" <twsurveyor@msn.com>
Actually the turn would be more like a 210 degree to get back to the airport!
Tommy Walker
6A finishing
Ridgetop, TN
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Bilinski
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2003 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: FW: RV-List: RV accident
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Actually this topic is so important that, I, would like to discuss it here
again even though it is in the archives.
My question is with the engine out at what altitude can you complete a 180?
I asked Mike Seager during my training and he basically said "dont" and
keep the heading change to no more than 45 degrees. BUT, I would still like
to know how much altitude you lose doing a 180 turn with the engine out.
This is something I will find out when I fly next month.......Of course at
altitude.
>Sounded like and looked like a stall-spin accident. Things to learn:
>practice your EMERGENCY procedures often; know them by heart. It may
>keep yours beating. FLY THE AIRPLANE. And in most instances, DON'T TURN
>BACK. Land straight ahead. Search the Archives for this discussion.
>
>>On the same topic another aircraft over by Colorado Springs crashed,
>and >the pilot killed about ten minutes after the RV accident. I believe
>it was >a Skybolt...
>
>Yes, who, according to the reports, was an experienced pilot, flying
>someone else's airplane, and did A ROLL on takeoff 300 feet off the
>ground. Didn't go well, as they usually don't. Things to learn: if
>you're good, you don't have to show off. Low level aerobatics are OK for
>Sean and Patty, not for us goons.
>
>This is all hearsay and conjecture.
>
>Fly safe.
>
>Michael
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 32
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Will & Lynda Allen" <linenwool@comcast.net>
I saw on the news yesterday a crash in Washington state, while the news only
reported it as an experimental aircraft, it very much looked like an RV to
me but it was upside down in tall grass. Can anyone confirm this?
-Will Allen
North Bend, Wa
RV8
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of JDaniel343@aol.com
Subject: RV-List: RV accident
--> RV-List message posted by: JDaniel343@aol.com
On Saturday afternoon after the airshow at the Rocky Mountain Regional
Fly-In, an RV-6 that had been at the fly-in took off from Ft. Collins
downtown airport an experienced engine failure and trying to turnback to the
airport crashed. the 2 persons on board died. From the pictures there
appeared to be no fire.
I believe the person that owned and flying the plane was from Austin, TX. I
have a name but am not 100% sure, so will not post it.
Most of the information I recieved about the accident came from a TV news
crew who was at the Longmont airport later that evening. I did my best to
inform them about experimental aircraft, since that was what they were
focusing on.
On the same topic another aircraft over by Colorado Springs crashed, and the
pilot killed about ten minutes after the RV accident. I believe it was a
Skybolt. A bad day for aviation and experimental aircraft.
The RMRFI was a big success despite the tragedies.
John Danielson
RV-6
Message 33
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| Subject: | AC rated switches for DC (was:Electrical question) |
--> RV-List message posted by: Bill Dube <bdube@al.noaa.gov>
>
>For 14v DC applications, Bob says it is safe to use the same amperage
>as the 125v AC rating.
This is one of the rare times that I would disagree with Bob.
Using AC rated switches (with no DC rating) is asking for trouble and not
worth the risk on an airplane.
DC rated switches have the ability to "blow out" or "quench" the
DC arc when you turn off the switch. AC rated switches are often very
limited in this respect. Think of the length of arc you can maintain with a
30 volt DC welder once you have struck the arc. This will give you the idea
of what is going on inside the switch, especially at higher amperages. The
arc strikes when you open the contacts and stretches as the contacts move
apart. If the contacts move slowly, don't move very far apart, or are not
of sufficient area and mass, they will not last long at all under DC use.
DC rated switches are not terribly expensive or difficult to find.
I find it astounding that the same guy that wouldn't consider
putting anything but an AN fastener on his plane does not give a second
thought about putting an AC rated switch in the same plane on a critical
system.
Message 34
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--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 6596X Make/Model: RV4 Description: RV-4
Date: 06/29/2003 Time: 0500
Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: Fatal Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Substantial
LOCATION
City: YELM State: WA Country: US
DESCRIPTION
ACFT CRASHED UNDER UNKNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES, TWO ON BOARD, ONE PERSON ON BOARD
WAS FATALLY INJURED, ONE SUSTAINED UNKNOWN INJURIES, YELM, WA
INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 1
# Crew: 1 Fat: 1 Ser: 0 Min: 0
Unk:
# Pass: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0
Unk: Y
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0
Unk:
WEATHER: METAR KTCM 02005KT 7SM SCT200 24/07 A2982
OTHER DATA
Activity: Unknown Phase: Unknown Operation: General Aviation
Departed: UNK Dep Date: Dep. Time:
Destination: UNK Flt Plan: UNK Wx Briefing: U
Last Radio Cont: UNK
Last Clearance: UNK
FAA FSDO: SEATTLE, WA (NM01) Entry date: 06/30/2003
At 01:16 PM 6/30/03 -0700, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Will & Lynda Allen" <linenwool@comcast.net>
>
>I saw on the news yesterday a crash in Washington state, while the news only
>reported it as an experimental aircraft, it very much looked like an RV to
>me but it was upside down in tall grass. Can anyone confirm this?
>
>-Will Allen
>North Bend, Wa
>RV8
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of JDaniel343@aol.com
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RV-List: RV accident
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: JDaniel343@aol.com
>
>On Saturday afternoon after the airshow at the Rocky Mountain Regional
>Fly-In, an RV-6 that had been at the fly-in took off from Ft. Collins
>downtown airport an experienced engine failure and trying to turnback to the
>airport crashed. the 2 persons on board died. From the pictures there
>appeared to be no fire.
>I believe the person that owned and flying the plane was from Austin, TX. I
>have a name but am not 100% sure, so will not post it.
>Most of the information I recieved about the accident came from a TV news
>crew who was at the Longmont airport later that evening. I did my best to
>inform them about experimental aircraft, since that was what they were
>focusing on.
>On the same topic another aircraft over by Colorado Springs crashed, and the
>pilot killed about ten minutes after the RV accident. I believe it was a
>Skybolt. A bad day for aviation and experimental aircraft.
>The RMRFI was a big success despite the tragedies.
>
>John Danielson
>RV-6
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Beware the orange vest |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Rick Fogerson" <rickf@cableone.net>
Do not archive
My orange vest story:
I wanted to park my RV6 with the other RV's so I planned ahead and made a
sign that said "RV parking area". I didn't end up parking my little beauty
with others like it. No, it was out in the tulies close to a lot of
recreational vehicles.
Rick Fogerson
RV3 finish kit
Boise, ID
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Point" <jpoint@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Beware the orange vest
> --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
>
> Jim does have a good point- we do sometimes make errors when directing
> people around. Most of the time they are minor and correctable with a
> 180 turn or something similar. Think of the parking volunteers like you
> do ATC- if a controller tries to vector you into a Tstorm cell or some
> such thing, you obviously don't do it because it would be unsafe. But
> on the other hand, if ATC tells you to "turn left to XXX and expedite"
> and there is nothing but blue sky in that direction, there is probably a
> good reason for the request. You don't have the big picture of other
> traffic like the controller does. A prime Oshkosh example of this is
> when an RV is taxing back into the parking area via papa-1, and an
> orange vest pulls him off the taxiway into the warbird area and stops
> him. Usually that is because there are Mustangs etc. coming out from
> the other end, which you the pilot is not aware of. Another good one is
> that sometimes the departure runway gets changed at the last minute,
> especially during the post-airshow exodus. Sometimes the change is not
> put onto ATIS in a timely manner, so we may be sending you in a
> different direction that the ATIS runway.
>
> In short, if an orange vest directs you to do something which is unsafe,
> by all means do not do it. On the other hand if he directs you to do
> something which seems odd to you but is not unsafe, please do it in a
> timely manner. There is probably a good reason for it, and the 50
> airplanes in line behind you don't appreciate it when you stop and try
> to argue the point.
>
> Jeff Point
> RV-6 FWF
> Milwaukee WI
>
> Jim Nolan wrote:
>
> >--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Nolan" <jimnolan@insightbb.com>
> >
> >Listers,
> > Thought I'd share my most recent experiences with the orange vested
angles from Oshkosh.
> > Two years ago, on departure from Oshkosh. A orange vested
inexperienced volunteer tried to stage me directly behind the tri-motor on
takeoff. When I shook my head NO, the guy literally jumped up and down and
threw a fit because I wouldn't follow his orders. I pointed to the tri-motor
revving his engines for takeoff but he still didn't get the point. Point
was, there's a whole lot of prop blast coming from those propellers and it's
still my airplane.
> > Last year on base to final I had two Mooney Mites come inside of me
while turning base to final. I guess they couldn't slow down like my RV4
could. Since I had a biplane in front of me I couldn't speed up anyway. The
Mooney guy nearest me had eyes the size of saucers. So here we are, three
airplanes on short final for 36. I informed the tower that the RV4 would
land on the taxiway to the right of 36. After I had rolled out, the tower
came on the phone an told me to take any turnoff I wanted and taxi across
the runway and a orange vested angle would help me to a parking spot. The
trouble with this picture is, I needed the tower's help back when I was on
final for 36. I didn't need him to give me parking directions.
> > Don't get me wrong, I'm not blasting the Orange vests at Oshkosh. I'm
just letting you know that when you follow someone else's directions at
Oshkosh, you're putting your welfare in the hands of a sometimes
inexperienced volunteer that won't be there when you have to repair the
damage to your aircraft when things go wrong.
> > Jim Nolan
> >N444JN
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 36
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
Yes, there was an RV-4 that went down in Yelm, Wa:
LOCATION
City: YELM State: WA Country: US
DESCRIPTION
ACFT CRASHED UNDER UNKNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES, TWO ON BOARD, ONE PERSON ON
BOARD
WAS FATALLY INJURED, ONE SUSTAINED UNKNOWN INJURIES, YELM, WA
INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 1
# Crew: 1 Fat: 1 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
Y
To see recent accident data go here:
http://www1.faa.gov/avr/aai/iirform.htm
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Will & Lynda Allen" <linenwool@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: RV-List: RV accident
--> RV-List message posted by: "Will & Lynda Allen" <linenwool@comcast.net>
I saw on the news yesterday a crash in Washington state, while the news only
reported it as an experimental aircraft, it very much looked like an RV to
me but it was upside down in tall grass. Can anyone confirm this?
-Will Allen
North Bend, Wa
RV8
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of JDaniel343@aol.com
Subject: RV-List: RV accident
--> RV-List message posted by: JDaniel343@aol.com
On Saturday afternoon after the airshow at the Rocky Mountain Regional
Fly-In, an RV-6 that had been at the fly-in took off from Ft. Collins
downtown airport an experienced engine failure and trying to turnback to the
airport crashed. the 2 persons on board died. From the pictures there
appeared to be no fire.
I believe the person that owned and flying the plane was from Austin, TX. I
have a name but am not 100% sure, so will not post it.
Most of the information I recieved about the accident came from a TV news
crew who was at the Longmont airport later that evening. I did my best to
inform them about experimental aircraft, since that was what they were
focusing on.
On the same topic another aircraft over by Colorado Springs crashed, and the
pilot killed about ten minutes after the RV accident. I believe it was a
Skybolt. A bad day for aviation and experimental aircraft.
The RMRFI was a big success despite the tragedies.
John Danielson
RV-6
Message 37
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--> RV-List message posted by: Finn Lassen <finnlassen@netzero.net>
"The FAA doesn't care that 51% of the plane was built by one person or 50 as long
as all the persons involved built it for their own 'Education or Recreation.'"
and you that have the previous builders' logs and/or pictures to prove it!!
Another point is: make sure you have an unbroken chain of (notarized?) Bill-Of-Sales
all the way back to the kit manufacturer (Van's) or you'll be unable to
register it (a requirement for the airworthiness certificate).
Finn
Phil Birkelbach wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Phil Birkelbach" <phil@petrasoft.net>
>
>You shouldn't have any problem registering the airplane. The FAA doesn't
>care that 51% of the plane was built by one person or 50 as long as all the
>persons involved built it for their own 'Education or Recreation.' You
>simply need to prove to the DAR that the airplane was built by an amateur.
>If you buy it make sure that you get the logs and photos from the guy that
>did the work and anything else that would be handy to show the DAR that it
>was not commercially built.
>
>Now the repairman certificate is another matter. You will probably not be
>able to get that.
>
>Godspeed,
>
>Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
>RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Canopy
>http://www.myrv7.com
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <smoothweasel@juno.com>
>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RV-List: RV-List
>
>
>
>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: smoothweasel@juno.com
>>
>> I am considering bying a RV-4 that is about ready
>>to fly. Would I be able to get this plane regesterd considering that I
>>would not have been the builder of "51%" of it? What if the previous
>>owner is unwilling to regester it in his name. I am usuming that there
>>is a way to do this because what if a owner of a 99% completed kit would
>>die?
>>
>> Considering RV-4
>>
>>The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
>>Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 38
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--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Oke <wjoke@shaw.ca>
Well, if you intend to practise "the 180 back after engine failure" at
altitude, fine and it should be good handling practise.
However, please consider the following variables as they might apply in a
real "180 back after engine failure" situation:
- aircraft attitude when the power cut (nose high in a steep climb vs level
flight vs nose down in a planned descent)
- how long it will take to react and adjust the aircraft to a suitable
descent attitude to maintain a suitable airspeed (add to your reaction time
the time spent fiddling with fuel selectors and such checks and wondering
...why me?...)
- is the prop wind-milling, under partial power, or seized (different
amounts of drag in each case...)
- wind shear, probably little or none at altitude, quite probably a
noticeable shear low to the surface
- the various runway possibilities after you have turned around, a big wide
runway or a smooth infield might let you land after just the 180 degree
turn, otherwise, you will have to turn past 180 degs and then s-turn back to
line up with the short, narrow runway you just took off from, (of course,
with luck, a convenient runway might beavailable after less than 180 degs of
turn)
- surface winds - landing back on that short, narrow runway with a
significant tail and/or crosswind component will take some extra skill and
extra stopping distance
- aircraft performance factors such as weight, more weight means a higher
stall speed, which means a greater turn radius and a bigger s-turn to line
up with the runway (or) an increased bank angle which means a higher stall
speed requiring a greater rate of descent which means more altitude loss or
a further adjustment in bank angle (to complete the turn faster, etc.)
Some truly superior pilots may well be able to factor in all these variables
and carry off a successful landing on the runway they just departed, but
many more have tried and failed.
The essential "dont" advice you got is very sound. A simple turn of up to
45 degrees towards the softest patch of whatever is ahead is a safe and
reliable path to survival. Most pilots can handle a slow speed touch down
into the prevailing wind and will survive just fine - a stalled arrival into
some bushy trees probably won't even damage the airplane too badly.
Conversely, digging a wingtip into the ground heading downwind or a classic
half turn "beginning of autorotation" descending turn into the ground will
cartwheel the airplane and do severe damage to the airframe and the
occupants.
Others will, I am sure, be able to add more....
Jim Oke
Winnipeg, MB
RV-6A (waiting is just about over..)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Bilinski" <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Subject: Re: FW: RV-List: RV accident
> --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski
<bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>
> Actually this topic is so important that, I, would like to discuss it here
> again even though it is in the archives.
>
> My question is with the engine out at what altitude can you complete a
180?
> I asked Mike Seager during my training and he basically said "dont" and
> keep the heading change to no more than 45 degrees. BUT, I would still
like
> to know how much altitude you lose doing a 180 turn with the engine out.
> This is something I will find out when I fly next month.......Of course at
> altitude.
>
>
> Scott Bilinski
> Eng dept 305
> Phone (858) 657-2536
> Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 39
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--> RV-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming@sigecom.net>
Nothing new here that we all don't know already; BUT and AND if you make it
back to the runway with an engine out, you just might meet up with some good
soul that is departing the runway behind you. We can do hazardous things if
we don't plan ahead what we'll do if we have an engine out on takeoff,
shortly after takeoff, and so on. Returning to the runway with a 180+
degree turn means you will be going against the pattern grain and putting
another pilot at risk. It makes sense to pick your airport and runway with
the preplanned emergency exit options in mind afforded by the area
surrounding the runway.
They say that most car accidents occur within 10 miles of one's home. I
wonder if the same is true of flying and home airports. I doubt it but
really don't know.
do not archive
Larry in Indiana, RV7 Tip-up TMX-O-360
Working on Finish Kit
Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But ..... is terribly
unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect. (OR no good plan
for an engine out on takeoff)
..
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tommy Walker" <twsurveyor@msn.com>
Subject: Re: FW: RV-List: RV accident
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Tommy Walker" <twsurveyor@msn.com>
>
> Actually the turn would be more like a 210 degree to get back to the
airport!
>
> Tommy Walker
> 6A finishing
> Ridgetop, TN
>
Message 40
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|
| Subject: | Re: AC rated switches for DC (was:Electrical question) |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Read this:
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/swtchrat.pdf
Then tell us what you think?
At 02:12 PM 6/30/03 -0600, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Bill Dube <bdube@al.noaa.gov>
>
>
>>
>>For 14v DC applications, Bob says it is safe to use the same amperage
>>as the 125v AC rating.
>
> This is one of the rare times that I would disagree with Bob.
>Using AC rated switches (with no DC rating) is asking for trouble and not
>worth the risk on an airplane.
>
> DC rated switches have the ability to "blow out" or "quench" the
>DC arc when you turn off the switch. AC rated switches are often very
>limited in this respect. Think of the length of arc you can maintain with a
>30 volt DC welder once you have struck the arc. This will give you the idea
>of what is going on inside the switch, especially at higher amperages. The
>arc strikes when you open the contacts and stretches as the contacts move
>apart. If the contacts move slowly, don't move very far apart, or are not
>of sufficient area and mass, they will not last long at all under DC use.
>
> DC rated switches are not terribly expensive or difficult to find.
>
> I find it astounding that the same guy that wouldn't consider
>putting anything but an AN fastener on his plane does not give a second
>thought about putting an AC rated switch in the same plane on a critical
>system.
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: AC rated switches for DC (was:Electrical question) |
--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorto1537@rogers.com>
>--> RV-List message posted by: Bill Dube <bdube@al.noaa.gov>
>
>
>>
>>For 14v DC applications, Bob says it is safe to use the same amperage
>>as the 125v AC rating.
>
> This is one of the rare times that I would disagree with Bob.
>Using AC rated switches (with no DC rating) is asking for trouble and not
>worth the risk on an airplane.
>
> DC rated switches have the ability to "blow out" or "quench" the
>DC arc when you turn off the switch. AC rated switches are often very
>limited in this respect. Think of the length of arc you can maintain with a
>30 volt DC welder once you have struck the arc. This will give you the idea
>of what is going on inside the switch, especially at higher amperages. The
>arc strikes when you open the contacts and stretches as the contacts move
>apart. If the contacts move slowly, don't move very far apart, or are not
>of sufficient area and mass, they will not last long at all under DC use.
>
> DC rated switches are not terribly expensive or difficult to find.
>
> I find it astounding that the same guy that wouldn't consider
>putting anything but an AN fastener on his plane does not give a second
>thought about putting an AC rated switch in the same plane on a critical
>system.
>
I'm not going to disagree with your desire for DC rated switches, but
we need to keep in mind that any switch can fail, not matter what the
rating, or how much we paid for it. So we need to make sure our
electrical and avionics system design and the way we operate our
aircraft are compatible with the possibility that any switch could
fail either open or closed.
If the failure of a particular switch would cause a safety issue,
then the answer isn't to use a better quality switch - the answer
should be to change the design or operating procedures to accommodate
the potential switch failure.
--
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
Message 42
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Lervold" <randy@rv-8.com>
Scott,
I'm not an instructor or an expert in any way, but like all pilots will have
sole responsibility for what decision to make in the event of an engine out
on takeoff. I have given it a lot of thought in order to try to have a
pre-programmed response -- humans tend to not think well in an emergency but
rather tend to resort to previously trained responses. To make my own life
more complicated I also own/fly a glider and must make the same decision in
that aircraft in the event of an engine failure (it's a self-launcher) or
rope break on tow. Of course the altitudes required for a turnback in the RV
(with a glide ratio of about 9:1 and my glider with a glide ratio of about
35:1 with the gear out) are dramatically different. Personally, my
situational awareness as to my exact altitude agl on takeoff in any aircraft
is low. The reason is that during the initial climb I am monitoring many
things and tend to focus my attention outside the aircraft rather than on
the altimeter during that phase. I am also closely monitoring the SOUND of
the engine to make sure all is well, and about the only gauge I sneak a peek
at occasionally is airspeed to make sure I'm accelerating and not near
stall. As I near pattern altitude (determined by visual cues from looking
OUTSIDE the cockpit), I then begin a more attentive instrument scan because
I know I'm past a takeoff emergency and can make the field if needed. As
I've contemplated how to program myself with some "decision rules" for
takeoff failure what I've concluded is that it is simply not realistic for
me to make a decision based on agl altitude because that is a bit of an
abstract... you must look at your altimeter and do a computation (msl
indication minus field elevation, assuming you remember it) at a time of
incredible stress. Instead my own plan is to focus on a two step process as
follows. Step 1: KEEP THE AIRPLANE FLYING, in other words push the nose
over, keep any sort of reasonable airspeed, targeting 80-90 mph, and only
then move on to Step 2: make a judgement on where to land. My belief is that
if you are truly flying the airplane it will be immediatley apparent to you
what your options are. Every single airport is different and an engine out
is for sure going to happen when you least expect it, therefore every
situation will be different. One thing is for sure, if the airplane isn't
flying you have NO CHANCE at all. I'll take the Wal-Mart parking lot, or the
river near my airport, or someone's back yard that I can make a controlled
decent into over a stall/spin every single time.
There is a very prominent and well regarding glider instructer who's method
of judging such things, including landing patterns, is the TLAR method (that
looks about right). Think about it, in an emergency about all you have is
your judgement, so my intent is to simply push the nose over, verify
airspeed, and make a quick judgement call -- it's that simple because
anything more would likely cause brainlock or not work.
FWIW,
Randy Lervold
RV-8, 320 hrs and thankfully no emergencies so far.
----- Original Message -----
> Actually this topic is so important that, I, would like to discuss it here
> again even though it is in the archives.
>
> My question is with the engine out at what altitude can you complete a
180?
> I asked Mike Seager during my training and he basically said "dont" and
> keep the heading change to no more than 45 degrees. BUT, I would still
like
> to know how much altitude you lose doing a 180 turn with the engine out.
> This is something I will find out when I fly next month.......Of course at
> altitude.
>
>
> >Sounded like and looked like a stall-spin accident. Things to learn:
> >practice your EMERGENCY procedures often; know them by heart. It may
> >keep yours beating. FLY THE AIRPLANE. And in most instances, DON'T TURN
> >BACK. Land straight ahead. Search the Archives for this discussion.
Message 43
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--> RV-List message posted by: <ktlkrn@cox.net>
Hi All,
I've been reading the accident information and the feedback from the list. One
person asked about the safe "turn back" altitude. I think this is a viable question
however I believe the key to safe flight is Situational Awareness. For anyone
that has been to a CRM course will know the term. If you don't find a course
and go.
As a former law enforcement helio pilot with most of my time in mountainous high
DA high stress rescue environment we practiced for everything in every condition.
As the unit commander I also made sure that every pilot had 100% knowledge
100% of the time of all emergency procedures for the aircraft we were operating
for the day. YOU DON'T HAVE TIME THINK OF THE PROCEDURE, YOU HAVE TO KNOW
IT ALL, ALL OF THE TIME!!!!
I think many get their pride and joy done, fly off the time and then start going
places. I would suggest getting an experienced RV driver on board and then setting
up some training scenarios and trying them out. It is then under controlled
circumstances that you will learn, "that won't work." Then you can find what
does. Here is an example.
How many actually know what the real glide performance of their plane is? Not many
I'd suggest. Try this. Find a remote airport and go to a set altitude. Then
fly past to a given mileage and cut the throttle to a safe idle. Establish best
glide and see what happens. Try to land w/o touching the throttle. Do this
at various altitudes and various temperature conditions. Within a couple of hours
your confidence level will rise and most importantly you will have some established
facts under your belt, FOR YOUR AIRPLANE.
Sorry for the rant folks. It just seems to me a lot of people die that don't need
to. A few hundred in gas and training will reduce a lot of accidents I believe.
Home with Pneumonia and too much time on my hands!!!! Thanks for listening.
Darwin N. Barrie
Chandler AZ
Message 44
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--> RV-List message posted by: Rob Prior <rv7@b4.ca>
Tommy Walker wrote:
>Actually the turn would be more like a 210 degree to get back to the airport!
>
>
Keep turning. A gentle turn back to the runway requires at least 270
of turning to complete. If you make a 180 to the left, you're now
pointing the right way, but you're misaligned with the runway by one
turn diameter. To get back to the runway, you need to do *at most* a 90
to the left, and a 90 to the right, for a total of 360 of turning. You
could split those two turns, though, say a 45 left, and a 45 right, with
a diagonal approach back to the airport, and bring it down to 270.
Splitting it any further than that may leave you too far downwind (don't
forget you've got a tailwind now) to stop within the airport. And don't
forget that we're talking about failures on takeoff, likely before
circuit altitude... Which in an RV quite likely means before you get to
the end of the runway (or even midfield in some cases).
Note that i'm not suggesting that any of these methods are a good
idea... I just wanted to point out that turning back to the airport is
not even close to being "just a 180 turn," as many people seem to
think. If you have altitude to do a 360 while gliding, then yes, you
can make it. Be sure of it before you start the turn, and be checking
whether that threshold is moving up in the windshield as you're coming
around. If it is, you're not going to get there.
-Rob
rv7 "at" b4.ca
Message 45
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--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
I agree with everything you have stated here, but there has got to be a
safe altitude where this can be done 1500 AGL? 2000AGL?. First thing I
would do is push the nose over and look at the alt at the same time and if
the alt is XXXX AGL or less its basically straight ahead. BUT if its above
the magic number (found during testing at gross weight) the a 180 will be
safe. I think we would all agree that at 3000 AGL yea you can make a 180
and return to the airport. I think we should all know this number with a
healthy safety margin of course.
OR, am I just out of line in my thinking?
At 04:10 PM 6/30/03 -0500, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Oke <wjoke@shaw.ca>
>
>Well, if you intend to practise "the 180 back after engine failure" at
>altitude, fine and it should be good handling practise.
>
>However, please consider the following variables as they might apply in a
>real "180 back after engine failure" situation:
>
>- aircraft attitude when the power cut (nose high in a steep climb vs level
>flight vs nose down in a planned descent)
>- how long it will take to react and adjust the aircraft to a suitable
>descent attitude to maintain a suitable airspeed (add to your reaction time
>the time spent fiddling with fuel selectors and such checks and wondering
>...why me?...)
>- is the prop wind-milling, under partial power, or seized (different
>amounts of drag in each case...)
>- wind shear, probably little or none at altitude, quite probably a
>noticeable shear low to the surface
>- the various runway possibilities after you have turned around, a big wide
>runway or a smooth infield might let you land after just the 180 degree
>turn, otherwise, you will have to turn past 180 degs and then s-turn back to
>line up with the short, narrow runway you just took off from, (of course,
>with luck, a convenient runway might beavailable after less than 180 degs of
>turn)
>- surface winds - landing back on that short, narrow runway with a
>significant tail and/or crosswind component will take some extra skill and
>extra stopping distance
>- aircraft performance factors such as weight, more weight means a higher
>stall speed, which means a greater turn radius and a bigger s-turn to line
>up with the runway (or) an increased bank angle which means a higher stall
>speed requiring a greater rate of descent which means more altitude loss or
>a further adjustment in bank angle (to complete the turn faster, etc.)
>
>Some truly superior pilots may well be able to factor in all these variables
>and carry off a successful landing on the runway they just departed, but
>many more have tried and failed.
>
>The essential "dont" advice you got is very sound. A simple turn of up to
>45 degrees towards the softest patch of whatever is ahead is a safe and
>reliable path to survival. Most pilots can handle a slow speed touch down
>into the prevailing wind and will survive just fine - a stalled arrival into
>some bushy trees probably won't even damage the airplane too badly.
>Conversely, digging a wingtip into the ground heading downwind or a classic
>half turn "beginning of autorotation" descending turn into the ground will
>cartwheel the airplane and do severe damage to the airframe and the
>occupants.
>
>Others will, I am sure, be able to add more....
>
>Jim Oke
>Winnipeg, MB
>RV-6A (waiting is just about over..)
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Scott Bilinski" <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: FW: RV-List: RV accident
>
>
>> --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski
><bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>>
>> Actually this topic is so important that, I, would like to discuss it here
>> again even though it is in the archives.
>>
>> My question is with the engine out at what altitude can you complete a
>180?
>> I asked Mike Seager during my training and he basically said "dont" and
>> keep the heading change to no more than 45 degrees. BUT, I would still
>like
>> to know how much altitude you lose doing a 180 turn with the engine out.
>> This is something I will find out when I fly next month.......Of course at
>> altitude.
>>
>>
>> Scott Bilinski
>> Eng dept 305
>> Phone (858) 657-2536
>> Pager (858) 502-5190
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 46
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REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT_PINE
autolearn=ham version=2.55
--> RV-List message posted by: Brian Huffaker <bifft@xmission.com>
On Mon, 30 Jun 2003, Scott Bilinski wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>
> I agree with everything you have stated here, but there has got to be a
> safe altitude where this can be done 1500 AGL? 2000AGL?. First thing I
> would do is push the nose over and look at the alt at the same time and if
> the alt is XXXX AGL or less its basically straight ahead. BUT if its above
> the magic number (found during testing at gross weight) the a 180 will be
> safe. I think we would all agree that at 3000 AGL yea you can make a 180
> and return to the airport. I think we should all know this number with a
> healthy safety margin of course.
>
> OR, am I just out of line in my thinking?
There must be some altitude. You should find it for your plane. My
method is:
Fly over a long straight road. Pretend this is the runway. Set the
aircraft in a climb, just like when climbing out on takeoff. When passing
thru some predecided altitude (I used 3000' AGL), pull back the throttle.
Turn around, and note the altitude you are at when you get back over the
road facing the other way. Subtract.
I found that the altitude lost was about 700' (this was in a 152, I need
to try it in the Starduster). Given the marginal climb performance I get
around here (Utah, field elevation 4600) I've always turned crosswind
before 700', and in the summer time (density altitudes often reach 8000),
turn downwind before reaching 700'. So the answer for me was, if I
haven't turned crosswind yet, don't turn back.
Brian Huffaker, DSWL (bifft@xmission.com)
RV-8A 80091 Installing rear baggage shelf.
1/4 Starduster II N23UT flying
Message 47
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--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorto1537@rogers.com>
>--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>
>I agree with everything you have stated here, but there has got to be a
>safe altitude where this can be done 1500 AGL? 2000AGL?. First thing I
>would do is push the nose over and look at the alt at the same time and if
>the alt is XXXX AGL or less its basically straight ahead. BUT if its above
>the magic number (found during testing at gross weight) the a 180 will be
>safe. I think we would all agree that at 3000 AGL yea you can make a 180
>and return to the airport. I think we should all know this number with a
>healthy safety margin of course.
>
>OR, am I just out of line in my thinking?
>
There is no single minimum altitude - it will vary from airport to
airport, and with the wind conditions.
The premise seems to be that turning back (if we are high enough)
will allow us to land on the airport instead of doing and off-airport
landing. But, depending on how steeply you climb (RVs can climb
fairly steep), and the altitude and speed when the turn back is
commenced, you may very well end up too high to land on the runway.
In this case all you will have done is trade an into-wind off-airport
landing (i.e. straight ahead) for a downwind off-airport landing.
And if you get too slow and pull too hard during the turn-back you
are probably looking at a fatal stall-spin scenario.
So don't be too primed to turn back. It might only be a good option
if you are high enough to do a full pattern and land into wind.
--
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
Message 48
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright" <kyle.boatright@adelphia.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Finn Lassen" <finnlassen@netzero.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: RV-List
> --> RV-List message posted by: Finn Lassen <finnlassen@netzero.net>
>
<snip>
>
> Another point is: make sure you have an unbroken chain of (notarized?)
Bill-Of-Sales all the way back to the kit manufacturer (Van's) or you'll be
unable to register it (a requirement for the airworthiness certificate).
>
> Finn
In my experience, having an unbroken chain of bills of sale didn't come into
play. I purchased the tail and wing kits second hand (two different serial
numbers, by the way), and bought the rest direct from Van's. The only bill
of sale I needed was the one blank one that Van's will send you when you're
ready to register the bird.
KB
Message 49
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| Subject: | Re: Beware the orange vest |
--> RV-List message posted by: Gary & Carolyn Zilik <zilik@direcpc.com>
If you had put HBP in your window you would have been with the rest of
the RV's in Home Built Parking. If you had wanted to Camp then you would
have put HBC and you would would have ended up somewhere along 18-36
camping with your airplane.
Moral of story: Read and follow the instructions posted in the NOTAM.
Proper signs are listed on page 1.
http://www.airventure.org/2003/flying/avnotam_2003.pdf
Gary Zilik
Rick Fogerson wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Rick Fogerson" <rickf@cableone.net>
>
>Do not archive
>My orange vest story:
>I wanted to park my RV6 with the other RV's so I planned ahead and made a
>sign that said "RV parking area". I didn't end up parking my little beauty
>with others like it. No, it was out in the tulies close to a lot of
>recreational vehicles.
>Rick Fogerson
>RV3 finish kit
>Boise, ID
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Jeff Point" <jpoint@mindspring.com>
>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Beware the orange vest
>
>
>
>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
>>
>>Jim does have a good point- we do sometimes make errors when directing
>>people around. Most of the time they are minor and correctable with a
>>180 turn or something similar. Think of the parking volunteers like you
>>do ATC- if a controller tries to vector you into a Tstorm cell or some
>>such thing, you obviously don't do it because it would be unsafe. But
>>on the other hand, if ATC tells you to "turn left to XXX and expedite"
>>and there is nothing but blue sky in that direction, there is probably a
>>good reason for the request. You don't have the big picture of other
>>traffic like the controller does. A prime Oshkosh example of this is
>>when an RV is taxing back into the parking area via papa-1, and an
>>orange vest pulls him off the taxiway into the warbird area and stops
>>him. Usually that is because there are Mustangs etc. coming out from
>>the other end, which you the pilot is not aware of. Another good one is
>>that sometimes the departure runway gets changed at the last minute,
>>especially during the post-airshow exodus. Sometimes the change is not
>>put onto ATIS in a timely manner, so we may be sending you in a
>>different direction that the ATIS runway.
>>
>>In short, if an orange vest directs you to do something which is unsafe,
>>by all means do not do it. On the other hand if he directs you to do
>>something which seems odd to you but is not unsafe, please do it in a
>>timely manner. There is probably a good reason for it, and the 50
>>airplanes in line behind you don't appreciate it when you stop and try
>>to argue the point.
>>
>>Jeff Point
>>RV-6 FWF
>>Milwaukee WI
>>
>>Jim Nolan wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Nolan" <jimnolan@insightbb.com>
>>>
>>>Listers,
>>> Thought I'd share my most recent experiences with the orange vested
>>>
>>>
>angles from Oshkosh.
>
>
>>> Two years ago, on departure from Oshkosh. A orange vested
>>>
>>>
>inexperienced volunteer tried to stage me directly behind the tri-motor on
>takeoff. When I shook my head NO, the guy literally jumped up and down and
>threw a fit because I wouldn't follow his orders. I pointed to the tri-motor
>revving his engines for takeoff but he still didn't get the point. Point
>was, there's a whole lot of prop blast coming from those propellers and it's
>still my airplane.
>
>
>>> Last year on base to final I had two Mooney Mites come inside of me
>>>
>>>
>while turning base to final. I guess they couldn't slow down like my RV4
>could. Since I had a biplane in front of me I couldn't speed up anyway. The
>Mooney guy nearest me had eyes the size of saucers. So here we are, three
>airplanes on short final for 36. I informed the tower that the RV4 would
>land on the taxiway to the right of 36. After I had rolled out, the tower
>came on the phone an told me to take any turnoff I wanted and taxi across
>the runway and a orange vested angle would help me to a parking spot. The
>trouble with this picture is, I needed the tower's help back when I was on
>final for 36. I didn't need him to give me parking directions.
>
>
>>> Don't get me wrong, I'm not blasting the Orange vests at Oshkosh. I'm
>>>
>>>
>just letting you know that when you follow someone else's directions at
>Oshkosh, you're putting your welfare in the hands of a sometimes
>inexperienced volunteer that won't be there when you have to repair the
>damage to your aircraft when things go wrong.
>
>
>>> Jim Nolan
>>>N444JN
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 50
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--> RV-List message posted by: "MSices" <msices@core.com>
Unless you can do a wing-over :>
-Mike Sices
RV8 - painting
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Rob Prior
Subject: Re: FW: RV-List: RV accident
--> RV-List message posted by: Rob Prior <rv7@b4.ca>
Tommy Walker wrote:
>Actually the turn would be more like a 210 degree to get back to the
airport!
>
>
Keep turning. A gentle turn back to the runway requires at least 270
of turning to complete. If you make a 180 to the left, you're now
pointing the right way, but you're misaligned with the runway by one
turn diameter. To get back to the runway, you need to do *at most* a 90
to the left, and a 90 to the right, for a total of 360 of turning. You
could split those two turns, though, say a 45 left, and a 45 right, with
a diagonal approach back to the airport, and bring it down to 270.
Splitting it any further than that may leave you too far downwind (don't
forget you've got a tailwind now) to stop within the airport. And don't
forget that we're talking about failures on takeoff, likely before
circuit altitude... Which in an RV quite likely means before you get to
the end of the runway (or even midfield in some cases).
Note that i'm not suggesting that any of these methods are a good
idea... I just wanted to point out that turning back to the airport is
not even close to being "just a 180 turn," as many people seem to
think. If you have altitude to do a 360 while gliding, then yes, you
can make it. Be sure of it before you start the turn, and be checking
whether that threshold is moving up in the windshield as you're coming
around. If it is, you're not going to get there.
-Rob
rv7 "at" b4.ca
---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
---
Message 51
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| Subject: | Propeller Wanted |
--> RV-List message posted by: Kaeyew@aol.com
> I know that there are many pilots / builders that decide at some point that
> they would like to go from a fixed pitch propeller to a constant speed set
up
> on their RVs and it is my hope that this message may get to one of those
> people.
>
> I am building and almost complete with my RV6A and I am most interested in
> finding someone who may be interested in selling their preowned fixed pitch
> Sensenich propeller (72FM8S) for an O-360 Lycoming engine. If you are in
the
> process of upgrading to constant speed and have a propeller for sale, or
know
> someone who is, I would be grateful for the contact.
>
> My email address is: KaeyeW@aol.com
> Kaeye (Kye) Wehrell - Atlanta Georgia
Message 52
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| Subject: | Re: Beware the orange vest |
--> RV-List message posted by: Gert <gert@execpc.com>
Rick
we try to accomodate, but sometimes things don't work as planned. We
don't claim to be perfect, we're just trying to keep things from getting
tangled up.
My advise here is to follow the signals, park the plane and come talk.
sometimes areas are filling up, or you just can't get there because
there is nobody to receive you. if you go over to the orange vests, at
least in the RV area, we'll bend over backwards to get you in with the
others, inthe end we're all RVers.
Especially towards the weekend space fills up, park and talk, because if
you don't you might end up in Fondulac because whilst you were arguing
the guy or gall after you took the last spot.
As Jeff points out, we're getting info sometimes before the ATIS is
changed, case in point is ShowCase traffic, when that starts 18-35 is
closed. regardless of ATIS.
Gert
Rick Fogerson wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Rick Fogerson" <rickf@cableone.net>
>
> Do not archive
> My orange vest story:
> I wanted to park my RV6 with the other RV's so I planned ahead and made a
> sign that said "RV parking area". I didn't end up parking my little beauty
> with others like it. No, it was out in the tulies close to a lot of
> recreational vehicles.
> Rick Fogerson
> RV3 finish kit
> Boise, ID
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeff Point" <jpoint@mindspring.com>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Beware the orange vest
>
>
>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
>>
>>Jim does have a good point- we do sometimes make errors when directing
>>people around. Most of the time they are minor and correctable with a
>>180 turn or something similar. Think of the parking volunteers like you
>>do ATC- if a controller tries to vector you into a Tstorm cell or some
>>such thing, you obviously don't do it because it would be unsafe. But
>>on the other hand, if ATC tells you to "turn left to XXX and expedite"
>>and there is nothing but blue sky in that direction, there is probably a
>>good reason for the request. You don't have the big picture of other
>>traffic like the controller does. A prime Oshkosh example of this is
>>when an RV is taxing back into the parking area via papa-1, and an
>>orange vest pulls him off the taxiway into the warbird area and stops
>>him. Usually that is because there are Mustangs etc. coming out from
>>the other end, which you the pilot is not aware of. Another good one is
>>that sometimes the departure runway gets changed at the last minute,
>>especially during the post-airshow exodus. Sometimes the change is not
>>put onto ATIS in a timely manner, so we may be sending you in a
>>different direction that the ATIS runway.
>>
>>In short, if an orange vest directs you to do something which is unsafe,
>>by all means do not do it. On the other hand if he directs you to do
>>something which seems odd to you but is not unsafe, please do it in a
>>timely manner. There is probably a good reason for it, and the 50
>>airplanes in line behind you don't appreciate it when you stop and try
>>to argue the point.
>>
>>Jeff Point
>>RV-6 FWF
>>Milwaukee WI
>>
>>Jim Nolan wrote:
>>
>>
>>>--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Nolan" <jimnolan@insightbb.com>
>>>
>>>Listers,
>>> Thought I'd share my most recent experiences with the orange vested
>>>
> angles from Oshkosh.
>
>>> Two years ago, on departure from Oshkosh. A orange vested
>>>
> inexperienced volunteer tried to stage me directly behind the tri-motor on
> takeoff. When I shook my head NO, the guy literally jumped up and down and
> threw a fit because I wouldn't follow his orders. I pointed to the tri-motor
> revving his engines for takeoff but he still didn't get the point. Point
> was, there's a whole lot of prop blast coming from those propellers and it's
> still my airplane.
>
>>> Last year on base to final I had two Mooney Mites come inside of me
>>>
> while turning base to final. I guess they couldn't slow down like my RV4
> could. Since I had a biplane in front of me I couldn't speed up anyway. The
> Mooney guy nearest me had eyes the size of saucers. So here we are, three
> airplanes on short final for 36. I informed the tower that the RV4 would
> land on the taxiway to the right of 36. After I had rolled out, the tower
> came on the phone an told me to take any turnoff I wanted and taxi across
> the runway and a orange vested angle would help me to a parking spot. The
> trouble with this picture is, I needed the tower's help back when I was on
> final for 36. I didn't need him to give me parking directions.
>
>>> Don't get me wrong, I'm not blasting the Orange vests at Oshkosh. I'm
>>>
> just letting you know that when you follow someone else's directions at
> Oshkosh, you're putting your welfare in the hands of a sometimes
> inexperienced volunteer that won't be there when you have to repair the
> damage to your aircraft when things go wrong.
>
>>> Jim Nolan
>>>N444JN
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500
Message 53
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| Subject: | my view of accidents |
--> RV-List message posted by: "michael michael" <top_gun_toronto@hotmail.com>
I`m new the list.
I`m taking my pilot lic right now.
I want to fly the RV-7 & have bought the kit tail kit. In a few years I
might be in the air.
Do any RV owners have BRS parachute systems installed. It seems to me when
your landing speed is over 50 mph, even a good off airport landing will be
very risky. Plus even if you do survive chances are your traped upside down.
If its good enouf for a Cessna it should be good enouf for my RV
Please feel free to tell me i dont know what i`m talking about....cause i`m
new & i don`t. So educate me. Is the non use of parachutes a macho thing?
I read the accident report on the RV line from RV World Wing & Ntsb. Over 50
people killed out of 4500 planes flying....Thats 1 in 90 chance of not
walking away. I`m new...will make mistakes...want to live to a ripe old age
& have a blast at 200mph. I wont be flying my plane without a BRS balistic
parachute system installed. & i dont work for the company....;)
Please tell me, am i the only person thinkng this ?
I`m into safety. I`ve even gone on ebay to look up used airbag prices...not
bad, can get a whole deploymnet system+bags, from a salvaged car for $400.00
I know it sounds crazy. But planes dont have crumple zones. Your body has to
absorb all the energy.
Michael
Toronto Canada.
Safety crazy in Canada
Message 54
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| Subject: | turning back/practice/was RV accident (long) |
--> RV-List message posted by: James Freeman <flyeyes@bellsouth.net>
I did have to turn back once (not in an RV) but was high enough it was
a no-brainer. My Continental IO-520 tossed a jug simultaneously with
the first power reduction after takeoff. Fortunately I was climbing
through 2000' AGL, and probably less than 3 miles from the departure
end of a 9000' runway. I needed full flaps, gear down and a slip to
make the first turnoff.
I have practiced this in most airplanes I fly, and it takes more
altitude than you think at first. I have a firm policy in single
engine airplanes of not moving any of the engine controls on takeoff
until I'm high enough to make it back to the airport comfortably.
Bob Hoover has stated that he makes a 45 degree turn off the runway
axis just after rotation, to make the turnback easier. He started
doing this after a double engine failure in his Shrike Commander(fueled
with Jet-A)
If you do practice, do it at altitude, and don't yank the throttle
back. Pulling the mixture is easier on the engine--both Lycoming and
Continental agree on this point. The cut and paste below is one of
many from Lycoming's website:
The fatal crash of a light twin in which a flight instructor and an
applicant for a multiengine rating were killed prompted the NTSB to
issue an urgent warning to all pilots simulating an engine-out
condition on multiengine airplanes. The Board=92s investigation revealed
that some flight instructors do use the fuel selector or the mixture
control to shut down an engine to test a multiengine
applicant. Although this is a recommended procedure, the urgent warning
was aimed at flight instructors who were using this procedure at
altitudes too low for continued safe flight.
The NTSB observed that use of such procedures at traffic pattern
altitudes may not permit instructors enough time to overcome possible
errors on the part of the applicant. The recommendation by the NTSB
means that all simulated engine-out operation at the lower altitudes
should be accomplished by retarding the throttle, and this should be
done slowly and carefully to avoid engine damage or
failure.
Many flight instructors down through the years used the technique of
abruptly cutting an engine with a multiengine candidate to test his
emotional reaction and judgment with this extreme technique. Big radial
piston engines with short, stubby crankshafts could tolerate the abrupt
technique. However, flat opposed piston engines with their long
crankshafts and attached counterweights could not as
readily take the abuse of suddenly snapping a throttle shut,
particularly at takeoff or climb power. Use of the latter technique
would tend to detune crankshaft counterweights and could possibly
result in a nasty engine failure.
Since it was common technique by flight instructors to terminate power
abruptly to simulate an engine power loss, we had to protect the
engine. As a result, we published in our Engine Operator=92s Manual and
in Service Bulletin No. 245, the recommendation that if the power was
abruptly terminated, it must be accomplished with the mixture control.
Of course, this was intended for the higher altitudes
where a complete engine shut-down could be conducted safely. The
student was to identify the dead engine by retarding that throttle to
about 12 inches MP to simulate zero thrust, or similar to having the
prop feathered. At that point the instructor could immediately return
the mixture to an engine operating condition and power would be
available if needed
In our publications we then explained the reason for using the mixture
to abruptly terminate power. By putting the mixture control in idle
cutoff position with the throttle in a normal open or operating
position, the pilot merely cut off the fuel, but allowed the air to
continue to fill the cylinders with resulting normal compression forces
that are sufficient to cushion the deceleration of
the engine and prevent the detuning of the crankshaft counterweights.
However, any practice of simulated engine-out condition at low
altitudes should be best accomplished by a slow retardation of the
throttle in accordance with the NTSB recommendation. This careful
technique will protect the engine, and at the same time provide for
instant power if it is needed.
HTH
JFF
Message 55
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| Subject: | Re: Beware the orange vest |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
If you use a sign that says REPAIR they will direct you to Emergency
Aircraft Repair.
Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org
Always looking for articles for the Experimenter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary & Carolyn Zilik" <zilik@direcpc.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Beware the orange vest
> --> RV-List message posted by: Gary & Carolyn Zilik <zilik@direcpc.com>
>
> If you had put HBP in your window you would have been with the rest of
> the RV's in Home Built Parking. If you had wanted to Camp then you would
> have put HBC and you would would have ended up somewhere along 18-36
> camping with your airplane.
>
> Moral of story: Read and follow the instructions posted in the NOTAM.
> Proper signs are listed on page 1.
>
> http://www.airventure.org/2003/flying/avnotam_2003.pdf
>
> Gary Zilik
>
> Rick Fogerson wrote:
>
> >--> RV-List message posted by: "Rick Fogerson" <rickf@cableone.net>
> >
> >Do not archive
> >My orange vest story:
> >I wanted to park my RV6 with the other RV's so I planned ahead and made a
> >sign that said "RV parking area". I didn't end up parking my little
beauty
> >with others like it. No, it was out in the tulies close to a lot of
> >recreational vehicles.
> >Rick Fogerson
> >RV3 finish kit
> >Boise, ID
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Jeff Point" <jpoint@mindspring.com>
> >To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> >Subject: Re: RV-List: Beware the orange vest
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>--> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
> >>
> >>Jim does have a good point- we do sometimes make errors when directing
> >>people around. Most of the time they are minor and correctable with a
> >>180 turn or something similar. Think of the parking volunteers like you
> >>do ATC- if a controller tries to vector you into a Tstorm cell or some
> >>such thing, you obviously don't do it because it would be unsafe. But
> >>on the other hand, if ATC tells you to "turn left to XXX and expedite"
> >>and there is nothing but blue sky in that direction, there is probably a
> >>good reason for the request. You don't have the big picture of other
> >>traffic like the controller does. A prime Oshkosh example of this is
> >>when an RV is taxing back into the parking area via papa-1, and an
> >>orange vest pulls him off the taxiway into the warbird area and stops
> >>him. Usually that is because there are Mustangs etc. coming out from
> >>the other end, which you the pilot is not aware of. Another good one is
> >>that sometimes the departure runway gets changed at the last minute,
> >>especially during the post-airshow exodus. Sometimes the change is not
> >>put onto ATIS in a timely manner, so we may be sending you in a
> >>different direction that the ATIS runway.
> >>
> >>In short, if an orange vest directs you to do something which is unsafe,
> >>by all means do not do it. On the other hand if he directs you to do
> >>something which seems odd to you but is not unsafe, please do it in a
> >>timely manner. There is probably a good reason for it, and the 50
> >>airplanes in line behind you don't appreciate it when you stop and try
> >>to argue the point.
> >>
> >>Jeff Point
> >>RV-6 FWF
> >>Milwaukee WI
> >>
> >>Jim Nolan wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Nolan" <jimnolan@insightbb.com>
> >>>
> >>>Listers,
> >>> Thought I'd share my most recent experiences with the orange vested
> >>>
> >>>
> >angles from Oshkosh.
> >
> >
> >>> Two years ago, on departure from Oshkosh. A orange vested
> >>>
> >>>
> >inexperienced volunteer tried to stage me directly behind the tri-motor
on
> >takeoff. When I shook my head NO, the guy literally jumped up and down
and
> >threw a fit because I wouldn't follow his orders. I pointed to the
tri-motor
> >revving his engines for takeoff but he still didn't get the point. Point
> >was, there's a whole lot of prop blast coming from those propellers and
it's
> >still my airplane.
> >
> >
> >>> Last year on base to final I had two Mooney Mites come inside of me
> >>>
> >>>
> >while turning base to final. I guess they couldn't slow down like my RV4
> >could. Since I had a biplane in front of me I couldn't speed up anyway.
The
> >Mooney guy nearest me had eyes the size of saucers. So here we are, three
> >airplanes on short final for 36. I informed the tower that the RV4 would
> >land on the taxiway to the right of 36. After I had rolled out, the tower
> >came on the phone an told me to take any turnoff I wanted and taxi across
> >the runway and a orange vested angle would help me to a parking spot. The
> >trouble with this picture is, I needed the tower's help back when I was
on
> >final for 36. I didn't need him to give me parking directions.
> >
> >
> >>> Don't get me wrong, I'm not blasting the Orange vests at Oshkosh.
I'm
> >>>
> >>>
> >just letting you know that when you follow someone else's directions at
> >Oshkosh, you're putting your welfare in the hands of a sometimes
> >inexperienced volunteer that won't be there when you have to repair the
> >damage to your aircraft when things go wrong.
> >
> >
> >>> Jim Nolan
> >>>N444JN
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 56
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| Subject: | Re: Beware the orange vest |
--> RV-List message posted by: Gert <gert@execpc.com>
Larry
If somebody signals me he/she wants to do a run-up (pointing the finger
in the air and describing a circle, [the rev-up signal] ??), if at all
possible I'll have them angle to the runway, pointing the blast away.
I believe that a run-up is important and I have no problem stopping
traffic for you for a few minutes to check mags, prop, carb heat etc.
But, how long does your run-up take?? I see people taxi out, just to be
in front of the line, to then stop and sit there, first listening to the
atis, then twiddle with radios, maps etc, then do a run-up and finally
put some seatbelts on. That, in short, is unacceptable if 100's of your
fellow aviators are behind you waiting. All these tasks except the
actual run-up could have been accomplished before starting the engine
and taxing out.
This happens so frequent that many orange vests, the closer you get to
the runway, are leery of letting people do run-ups. Ya have to be
prepared, do your thing and get on.
Larry Bowen wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@bowenaero.com>
>
> The organge vest talk reminds me of something I observe every time I go to
> OSH or SNF. Run ups -- There seems to be no good place to do one. Every
> time I see a pilot try to do one, someone is waving frantically trying to
> get him/her to stop. What's the policy on this and what's the reality?
>
> I've never flown to OSH or SNF as PIC, so forgive me if this is a stupid
> question.
>
> -
> Larry Bowen
> Larry@BowenAero.com
> http://BowenAero.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500
Message 57
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Paul Besing" <azpilot@extremezone.com>
This is exactly why when I flew my RV-6A I would always go for Vx. I would
climb out like a bat out of hell so I was sure I had enough altitude to take
off. Kind of looks like I was showing off most of the time, but it did
serve a purpose. Use the power while you have it, I say. In heavily
populated areas, an off airport landing is usually *not* the ideal thing to
do.
Paul Besing
RV-6A Sold (Waiting on RV-10)
http://www.lacodeworks.com/besing
Kitlog Builder's Log Software
http://www.kitlog.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Horton" <khorto1537@rogers.com>
Subject: Re: FW: RV-List: RV accident
But, depending on how steeply you climb (RVs can climb
> fairly steep), and the altitude and speed when the turn back is
> commenced, you may very well end up too high to land on the runway.
> In this case all you will have done is trade an into-wind off-airport
> landing (i.e. straight ahead) for a downwind off-airport landing.
do not archive
Message 58
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
> safe. I think we would all agree that at 3000 AGL yea you can make a 180
> and return to the airport. I think we should all know this number with a
> healthy safety margin of course.
At what density altitude?
Man, there are so many factors...temperature, pressure, wind, weight,
turbulence...and of course CG. I think the only safe thing to assume is
that there can be no safe assumptions. If your engine fails on departure
your options are:
a) no-brainer that you've got enough altitude to make it back to the airport
(and do a loop or two along the way)
b) no-brainer that you're NOT gonna make it back, look in the forward
quadrants
c) a "tweener" in which case you had better go with (b) anyway!!!
I think if we're gonna talk hard and fast numbers I'm going to start hitting
the delete key when these messages come in!
do not archive
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
Message 59
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Greg Young" <gyoung@cs-sol.com>
Sure, go play with it and come up with a number. Then forget it, it's pretty
meaningless. First, you need to recognize an engine failure... That takes
time. You need to setup best glide... That takes time. Then you have to run
your emergency checklist... That takes time. Then you need to evaluate your
glide and size up your options and keep flying the airplane... That takes
time. Only then can you make a decision and implement it. All that time may
be seconds or partial seconds but they equate to a significant percentage of
your available altitude/time. Turning back is a decision to save the
airplane not yourself. Consider how dead you'll be if you "almost" make it.
Pick the option that gives "you" the best chance of survival. Seeing
yourself on the evening news is not a bad outcome.
Greg
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski
> --> <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>
> Actually this topic is so important that, I, would like to
> discuss it here again even though it is in the archives.
>
> My question is with the engine out at what altitude can you
> complete a 180? I asked Mike Seager during my training and he
> basically said "dont" and keep the heading change to no more
> than 45 degrees. BUT, I would still like to know how much
> altitude you lose doing a 180 turn with the engine out. This
> is something I will find out when I fly next month.......Of
> course at altitude.
>
Message 60
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--> RV-List message posted by: PASSPAT@aol.com
JUST REMEMBER ONE THING " FLY THE AIRPLANE FIRST "
Pat
do not archive
Message 61
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| Subject: | Re: my view of accidents |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright" <kyle.boatright@adelphia.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: "michael michael" <top_gun_toronto@hotmail.com>
Subject: RV-List: my view of accidents
> --> RV-List message posted by: "michael michael"
<top_gun_toronto@hotmail.com>
>
> I`m new the list.
> I`m taking my pilot lic right now.
> I want to fly the RV-7 & have bought the kit tail kit. In a few years I
> might be in the air.
>
> Do any RV owners have BRS parachute systems installed. It seems to me when
> your landing speed is over 50 mph, even a good off airport landing will be
> very risky. Plus even if you do survive chances are your traped upside
down.
> If its good enouf for a Cessna it should be good enouf for my RV
>
> Please feel free to tell me i dont know what i`m talking about....cause
i`m
> new & i don`t. So educate me. Is the non use of parachutes a macho thing?
<snip>
>
> Michael
> Toronto Canada.
> Safety crazy in Canada
>
Michael (and others),
Check the archives. You will find every possible opinion on the BRS systems.
KB
Do not archive.
Message 62
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| Subject: | report on jabiru 8cyl engine in RV6 |
--> RV-List message posted by: MICK MULLER <MULLERPHARM@bigpond.com>
For those interested, jabiru have 40 hours flying time on new 8cyl engine in
RV6. Here is pilots report.
mick muller
PILOTS REPORT ON THE RV6 / 8 CYLINDER JABIRU ENGINE
Col Crittenden is the Pilot flying our RV6 for flight endurance testing. He
owns a 0360 Powered RV6A & has over 4000 hours total flight hours & 220 on
RV'S.
THE RV LOOKS NO DIFFERENT TO A LYCOMING POWERED RV, THE COWL IS 150mm LONGER
THAN THE NORMAL RV BUT STILL LOOKS NICELY BALANCED, START UP IS SIMPLE, PULL
OUT BOTH CHOKES ( YES THERE ARE TWO, ONE FOR EACH CARBY) THE ENGINE FIRES UP
INSTANTLY, ONCE WARM AND CHOKES IN ONE WOULD THINK YOU WERE SITTING BEHIND A
TURBINE.THE 170hp JABIRU RUNS SO SMOOTHLY.
TAKE OF RUN IS THE SAME AS MY O360 RV6A AND CLIMB OUT SHOWS A VERY
RESPECTABLE 1500fpm AT 100kts, .
IN CRUISE THE LACK OF VIBRATION NORMALLY ASSOCIATED WITH PISTON ENGINES IS
VERY NOTICEABLE, SO SMOOTH.
2550rpm AT 5000ft SHOWS 150kts TAS AND TRIMMING TO STRAIGHT AND LEVEL TAKES
TIME AS IS NORMAL WITH ALL RVs AS THEY TEND TO WANT TO CLIMB IF FULL
ATTENTION TO CAREFUL TRIMMING IS NOT ADHERED TO.
UNDER THE COWL A VERY NEAT AND TIDY INSTALLATION OF THE 8cyl ENGINE WHICH
WILL NO DOUBT BE EVEN NEATER ON PRODUCTION MODELS AS CHANGES HAVE BEEN MADE
ON THE RUN TO THE PROTOTYPE.
IN ALL A VERY NICE A/C TO FLY AND HAS LOST NOTHING IN ITS NORMAL SUPERB
HANDLING IN THE JABIRU CONVERSION.
COLIN CRITTENDEN
ph + 61.7 41254485
email: ycritter@bigpond.com
Message 63
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| Subject: | Re: AC rated switches for DC (was:Electrical question) |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Cimino" <jcimino@echoes.net>
There was also an excellent article in Sport Aviation a few months back.
After reading it, I think you should think twice before using AC switches
for DC.
James Cimino
RV-8 SN 80039
80+ Hours
570-842-4057
http://www.geocities.com/jcimino.geo/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Bilinski" <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: AC rated switches for DC (was:Electrical question)
> --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski
<bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>
> Read this:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/swtchrat.pdf
>
> Then tell us what you think?
>
>
> At 02:12 PM 6/30/03 -0600, you wrote:
> >--> RV-List message posted by: Bill Dube <bdube@al.noaa.gov>
> >
> >
> >>
> >>For 14v DC applications, Bob says it is safe to use the same amperage
> >>as the 125v AC rating.
> >
> > This is one of the rare times that I would disagree with Bob.
> >Using AC rated switches (with no DC rating) is asking for trouble and not
> >worth the risk on an airplane.
> >
> > DC rated switches have the ability to "blow out" or "quench" the
> >DC arc when you turn off the switch. AC rated switches are often very
> >limited in this respect. Think of the length of arc you can maintain with
a
> >30 volt DC welder once you have struck the arc. This will give you the
idea
> >of what is going on inside the switch, especially at higher amperages.
The
> >arc strikes when you open the contacts and stretches as the contacts move
> >apart. If the contacts move slowly, don't move very far apart, or are not
> >of sufficient area and mass, they will not last long at all under DC use.
> >
> > DC rated switches are not terribly expensive or difficult to
find.
> >
> > I find it astounding that the same guy that wouldn't consider
> >putting anything but an AN fastener on his plane does not give a second
> >thought about putting an AC rated switch in the same plane on a critical
> >system.
> >
> >
>
>
> Scott Bilinski
> Eng dept 305
> Phone (858) 657-2536
> Pager (858) 502-5190
>
>
Message 64
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| Subject: | Re: HONOR the orange vest (VERY long) |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Tom Webster" <twebste@hotmail.com>
Michael,
I started going to the EAA fly-in in the Rockford days.
For the last few years, if there were no orange vests or POP people,
I wouldn't bring my old airplane to OSH.
Thanks, you ARE angels,
Tom Webster EAA-7127, VAA-4255
Luscombe (flying)
RV-7A (working on finish kit)
>From: "KostaLewis" <mikel@dimensional.com>
>Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com
>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: FW: RV-List: HONOR the orange vest (VERY long)
>Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 12:10:23 -0600
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: "KostaLewis" <mikel@dimensional.com>
>
>
>Michael
>Antique Denver
>Also, driver of N232 Suzie Q
>Come on over and visit; I'm usually easy to find.
>
Message 65
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--> RV-List message posted by: "RV6 Flyer" <rv6_flyer@hotmail.com>
During simulated engine out approach here are the numbers.
On downwind at pattern altitude (800 AGL) at Cable (CCB,
http://www.cableairport.com/) flying level at 65 KIAS, (65 KIAS is best
angle Vx climb speed) pull throttle to idle and start turn to airport. At
completion of 180 degree turn, you are on the runway abeam the location that
you pulled the power. 75 KIAS is minimum sink rate on my airplane.
I typically use "that looks about right" when handling emergency maneuvers.
It is easy to get into brain overload and take too much time analyzing the
situations. Need to act on instinct. Fly the airplane. If the airplane is
not flying, you have NO Chance. Practice emergency maneuvers with your
flight instructor till they are instinct.
Gary A. Sobek
"My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell,
1,297 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA
http://SoCAL_WVAF.rvproject.com
----Original Message Follows----
From: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Subject: Re: FW: RV-List: RV accident
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski
<bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Actually this topic is so important that, I, would like to discuss it here
again even though it is in the archives.
My question is with the engine out at what altitude can you complete a 180?
I asked Mike Seager during my training and he basically said "dont" and
keep the heading change to no more than 45 degrees. BUT, I would still like
to know how much altitude you lose doing a 180 turn with the engine out.
This is something I will find out when I fly next month.......Of course at
altitude.
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 66
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| Subject: | Re: bucking bars |
--> RV-List message posted by: Charlie & Tupper England <cengland@netdoor.com>
Tedd McHenry wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
>
>
>
>>I suspect a bucking bar made of any
>>of those would be pretty expensive.
>>
>>
>
>Depleted uranium would be a good choice, and probably not really expensive.
>But I don't know any retail sources.
>
>(Steel works fine!)
>
>Tedd McHenry
>Surrey, BC
>
There are a couple of places in the Middle East where it just litters
the landscape. I wouldn't advise emailing anyone over there to pick you
some up, though. Carnivore would tell the HSA to tell the TSA to tell
the FAA to pull your ticket because you could be a potential terrorist.
Charlie
Oh, yeah... no smiley on this one on purpose.
Message 67
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--> RV-List message posted by: Louis Willig <larywil@comcast.net>
At 12:47 PM 6/30/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>
>Actually this topic is so important that, I, would like to discuss it here
>again even though it is in the archives.
>
>My question is with the engine out at what altitude can you complete a 180?
>I asked Mike Seager during my training and he basically said "dont" and
>keep the heading change to no more than 45 degrees. BUT, I would still like
>to know how much altitude you lose doing a 180 turn with the engine out.
>This is something I will find out when I fly next month.......Of course at
>altitude.
Scott,
If you have to ask this question, you shouldn't make any major turn in the
event of an engine out after T/O situation. Let me explain. If you
reached 1000 ft. after take-off and then your engine quit, you wouldn't be
terribly excited, and you would and could easily nose over and make a turn
back to the runway. As the altitude decreases when an engine out episode
occurs, the excitement level increases and your options quickly decrease.
You can practice all you want, but a real-life, unexpected engine out
situation breaks all the rules. If you're not sure if you will make it
back, you definitely won't. The aircraft never glides as well as you think
it will because its not set up to glide (like we learned in school during
practice.) You will find in the archives numerous posts describing test
performed by RV pilots to determine the minimum altitude needed for a 180
back to the runway. After all was said and done, most of us realized that
it is a hairy situation at best. Instead, you should spend time making a
course-of-action plan for an engine out at your home field. Most of your
T/O's will be there and you can make a fairly decent plan. If we were good
pilots all the time, we would also spend 5 or 10 minutes at an unfamiliar
A/P prior to T/O to formulate an engine out plan. Few of us do this (myself
included), and accidents like the one described today should humble us and
make us think twice. If you are low, slow and scared, just fly straight
ahead, and stay between the tree trunks. Your belts should have been
already tightened. turn off fuel and master if you have the time. I have
always told myself to pop the hatch on my RV-4 in the event of an impending
crash. I would like some feedback on that idea.
-
Louis I Willig
1640 Oakwood Dr.
Penn Valley, PA 19072
610 668-4964
RV-4, N180PF
190HP IO-360, C/S prop
316 exciting Hrs.
Message 68
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Patrick Kelley" <webmaster@flion.com>
My $.02: Take some glider training. Many years ago I got some hours at
SkySailing in Fremont, CA. Before flight, we had to call out a set of
altitude ranges and what to do in case of a rope-break at each range.
It's been a long time but it was something like 0-100 ft land ahead,
over the fence if necessary; 100-250 feet make a 110 degree right turn
and land on the adjacent dragstrip (avoiding powerlines ahead); 250-500
feet land over the lines in the fields ahead; 500-1000 feet make a
downwind landing; 1000+ fly normal pattern. Learning to fly power at
Oakland we had similar concerns. The 150s could just about land ahead
up to pattern altitude, but single-engine landings in a Duchess could
mean a downwind on the jet runway or at Alameda, if we were lucky. The
basic idea was, BEFORE YOU TAKE OFF, have a similar plan suitable for
the conditions during takeoff. That way you don't have to think about
it when you are already busy. Once you are at cruise, you will have
more time to scan-as-you-go for emergency landing sites (and engine-out
procedures were a big part of my training).
Planning is only part of the equation though. You need to practice
those procedures, too. Slow flight, simulated engine loss, etc. I
remember how freaked I was when my IP first pulled the mixture on me;
later he was doing it at least twice a flight and it was merely boring.
Then there was my multi checkride and after the examiner had already
shut down one of my engines on TO, we were rolling again when my @@#
&!!
door came open and I handled it without even blinking. Suddenly I
realized the value of all that practice.
Patrick Kelley - RV-6A - Assembling primed fuselage structure
-----Original Message-----
At 12:47 PM 6/30/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski
<bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>
>Actually this topic is so important that, I, would like to discuss it
here
>again even though it is in the archives.
>
>My question is with the engine out at what altitude can you complete a
180?
>I asked Mike Seager during my training and he basically said "dont" and
>keep the heading change to no more than 45 degrees. BUT, I would still
like
>to know how much altitude you lose doing a 180 turn with the engine
out.
>This is something I will find out when I fly next month.......Of course
at
>altitude.
Message 69
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| Subject: | Wing Tip lockers... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "John Starn" <jhstarn@earthlink.net>
Well, the photos and instructions/directions seem to have been somewhat of a
hit. 38 direct requests for them so far. They are on the "shared photos"
section of the RV lists. Just might do the air vents and the tire/air access
thru the wheel pants as my next project. If you have questions please
advise. KABONG 8*) (GBA)
Message 70
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| Subject: | Colorado RV crash |
--> RV-List message posted by: "lucky macy" <luckymacy@hotmail.com>
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/1973903
I don't recognize the names from the different RV lists but someone might
and be in a position to help out their families/friends.
do not archive
lucky
Message 71
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| Subject: | RV Flying, NOT an accident (delete if not interested) |
--> RV-List message posted by: "KostaLewis" <mikel@dimensional.com>
MAN, with all this talk about accidents, I had to go FLYING.
Tonight was one of those hot summer evenings after a pretty, hot
Colorado summer day. And the air was still as it could be; wind sock
hanging like an old dish rag. I needed to go stir up the air and get
some ALTITUDE.
Take off. Suzie Q still has great performance even in this heat. Head
north. Air smooth as a baby's butt. Bugs. Man, where did all these bugs
come from? Can't they see me coming? Sun is a big orange ball in the
northwest. Clouds are blocking the direct light, scattering gold-orange
rays in a thousand directions. Everything on the ground is GREEN this
year. Stretches out for miles. I can see Kansas from here, it's so
clear. Radio frequencies are strangely quiet. Why aren't they up here?
Bend north west, towards the mountains. I'm mumbling my emergency
procedure check list quietly to myself, looking at where my hands would
go. Now I'm heading right at the sun, still behind the clouds. Gentle
climb to match the upcoming foothills, which Suzie Q does without even
thinking. It's one of those nights you don't even have to touch the
controls. But my hand is gently on the Infinity grip anyway. That's
where I like it.
And I look around, closely. I LOVE this panel. Wouldn't change a thing
on it. My peripheral vision takes over and I see from wingtip to
wingtip, the whole panorama. Wow. I look back at the tail. The elevator
is exactly in line with the horizontal tail. How did I figure that out,
so long ago? Blind luck. Ailerons. Huh. Who thought of that? Look how
little they move to make a turn. And flaps out there too. Flaps are
cool.
Now I bend around and I'm heading back south, along the dark blue of the
foothills. Lights are coming on on the ground. The sun peaks through and
I can't help looking over there. Now I have a dozen copper half pennies
from the sun stuck on my retina to look at. The sun slips behind the
mountains. I pull gently on the stick and it comes up again, just
barely, and sets again. I head for home. More ground lights. A friend
once said If night flying and been invented before sex, we never would
have made it as a species. He was right. Over there is a quad of
softball fields, brightest lights around. There is Highway 287, snaking
south, full of cars. If they only knew.
Home field: I can't see it yet. The white light on the beacon burned out
weeks ago and they haven't replaced it. I'm following the stretched out
string of the GPS, the end of the string is back home. I click the mic
button 5 times and see nothing for my efforts. Wait; those red lights.
Is that the VASI? Way out there? Yes. OK, now I see the beacon. And the
threshold strobes. Sudden lightening on the horizon freaks me out until
I realize it's 100 miles away. I turn on my landing light, way out on
the wing tip. Man, is it bright at night. The VASI turns from red to
white as I approach; they are for 15 and I am using 33.
Downwind. Another flash of lightening, closer but still far away. Turn
base. Final. Touch now, three point squeaker. Mmmmmm.
Strobe lights flash on the runway edge. Clear at Alpha 5. Taxi up to the
hanger. Nav lights glow red and white left, green and white right. Shut
down. Quiet.
Thanks, Suzie Q. That was a gift.
Yeah. That's what it's all about.
Michael
RV-4 N232 Suzie Q
In memory of those we lost this weekend.
Message 72
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--> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes <kempthornes@earthlink.net>
At 04:10 PM 6/30/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Oke <wjoke@shaw.ca>
>
>However, please consider the following variables as they might apply in a
>real "180 back after engine failure" situation:
And consider the landing area ahead. When it is an auto wrecking yard,
buildings, forest etc.
hal
Message 73
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| Subject: | Re: AC rated switches for DC (was:Electrical question) |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Meketa" <acgm@gvtc.com>
Bill
Realistically a high quality fast acting A/C rated switch will work many
thousands of cycles when used in a D/C circuit. You mention using only
D/C rated switches. Looking thru the Newark catalog most D/C switches are
rated at 5 amps or much less.
The one mentioned in another post with a 21 amp rating for $2.00 looks like
any other cheap switch. I doubt if there is any difference in quality,
contact size, snap action, etc.to any other cheap switch. Just because it
is rated does not make it better.
The original post mentioned the wire terminals being burned up. All
the attention is being put on the switch. The most common failure point
is the terminal. Not enough attention is paid here. The very best switch
is no match for a high resistance terminal connection.
What style switch on the original faiure post would be good information
to have. Is the case held by bent tabs or rivets, are there ring or spade
terminals, was it sealed or not, etc.
I would never use the "Carling" switches sold by Bob again. I only used them
on the low draw systems, but regret it. Next time only Microswitch type
sealed units with screw terminals will be used for all circuits.
When at OSH this year I will look thru some of the used stuff at see
if there are D/C ratings on the sealed switches. Does anyone have the
flap switch supplied by Van handy that will post the specs. on the case
along with manufacturers information. Is there a D/C rating??
DO NOT ARCHIVE
George Meketa
RV8, N444TX, 338.7 hours
> >For 14v DC applications, Bob says it is safe to use the same amperage
> >as the 125v AC rating.
>
> This is one of the rare times that I would disagree with Bob.
> Using AC rated switches (with no DC rating) is asking for trouble and not
> worth the risk on an airplane.
>
> DC rated switches have the ability to "blow out" or "quench" the
> DC arc when you turn off the switch. AC rated switches are often very
> limited in this respect. Think of the length of arc you can maintain with
a
> 30 volt DC welder once you have struck the arc. This will give you the
idea
> of what is going on inside the switch, especially at higher amperages. The
> arc strikes when you open the contacts and stretches as the contacts move
> apart. If the contacts move slowly, don't move very far apart, or are not
> of sufficient area and mass, they will not last long at all under DC use.
>
> DC rated switches are not terribly expensive or difficult to
find.
>
> I find it astounding that the same guy that wouldn't consider
> putting anything but an AN fastener on his plane does not give a second
> thought about putting an AC rated switch in the same plane on a critical
> system.
>
>
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