Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:40 AM - Engine out (Wheeler North)
2. 02:58 AM - prop repitch to 81 (chris m)
3. 03:15 AM - Re: my view of accidents/parachutes (Kevin Horton)
4. 05:55 AM - Re: ICOM Radio (Dwpetrus@aol.com)
5. 05:59 AM - Re: low power mystery on RV7A?? (Dwpetrus@aol.com)
6. 06:28 AM - Re: stopped prop (Wayne Reese)
7. 07:12 AM - Re: AC rated switches for DC (was:Electrical question) (Bill Dube)
8. 07:28 AM - Re: Engine out (Jerry Springer)
9. 08:23 AM - Re: low power mystery on RV7A?? (Stephen Johnson)
10. 08:35 AM - PropBladeShape (DAVID REEL)
11. 08:37 AM - Re: RV7A TIP UP (Paul Besing)
12. 08:53 AM - dynon (Wheeler North)
13. 09:13 AM - Re: low power mystery on RV7A?? (Bob Newman)
14. 09:18 AM - Re: my view of accidents/parachutes (Scott Bilinski)
15. 09:22 AM - Re: my view of accidents/parachutes (Scott Bilinski)
16. 09:36 AM - Re: low power mystery on RV7A?? (Jerry Springer)
17. 09:38 AM - Re: PropBladeShape (Scott Bilinski)
18. 10:01 AM - Re: low power mystery on RV7A?? ()
19. 12:09 PM - Transition training (mark phipps)
20. 12:19 PM - Re: Engine out (KostaLewis)
21. 01:36 PM - Re: low power mystery on RV7A?? (janenjoe@juno.com)
22. 02:33 PM - Re: low power mystery on RV7A?? (Eustace Bowhay)
23. 02:35 PM - Re: Transition training (chris m)
24. 03:03 PM - Re: my view of accidents/parachutes (Kevin Horton)
25. 03:04 PM - Re: Bucking bars again (Elsa & Henry)
26. 03:35 PM - Re: Seats (Tom Brandon)
27. 05:36 PM - Re: Re : Icom Radio (Jack Lockamy)
28. 07:31 PM - I will not make 35 will try for the other runway... (Michel)
29. 07:40 PM - Re: GPS - RAIM Prediction (Ralph W. Pawlak)
30. 08:46 PM - My view on safety/parachutes(long) (Wiethe, Philip (P.J.))
31. 09:18 PM - Re: my view of accidents/parachutes delete if not interested (George McNutt)
32. 09:56 PM - Re: stopped prop (Tracy Crook)
33. 10:07 PM - Re: I will not make 35 will try for the other (kempthornes)
34. 10:26 PM - Re: my view of accidents/parachutes delete if not interested (Tedd McHenry)
Message 1
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--> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North <wnorth@sdccd.cc.ca.us>
Well,
I am a nobody when it comes to being joe pilot, but I can tell you that
after five unplanned airborne engine shut downs, it does take at least four
to five seconds to get focused on the engine systems as the root your recent
adrenalin surge. What hasn't been said is that 3 of those shut downs were
corrected by doing something to the fuel valves. As a result my emergency
routine is airspeed, then follow the air/fuel system.
fuel valves, mixture, alternate air, throttle, then land with as little
vertical velocity as possible if needed. The where you land isn't as
important as we think, barring the obvious cliffs, buildings etc. What seems
to make crash landings survivable is control and minimum vertical velocity
at impact.
What seems to make engines work is air and fuel. Mags, gears and things
rarely catastrophically fail instantly if maintenance is good. Personally I
would prefer to use my time getting the engine running rather then trying to
make it back to an airport that probably has many industrial buildings or
houses around it.
Also, close the throttle just before touch down, we lost one plane years ago
because it suddenly came back to full throttle life just as the plane
touched down in the middle of an empty runway. Ground loop into a ditch, no
one hurt.
What is more useful to me is knowing how much altitude I will lose
re-engaging airspeed and the engine. The last 200 ft should be exclusive to
landing. I think some people who lose it, lose it because they aren't
willing to make that decision, they haven't emotionally planned to make that
decision, and the indecision is what amplifies the fear. A firm decison to
give up on the engine or an optimum landing spot or whatever and just fly
the plane down with a minimum vertical descent touchdown will do more for
controlling the adrenalin than anything else. This I can tell you from
experience.
Another way of saying it is assume the ground is your friend, if you don't
hit it hard you will love it very dearly from then on.
The other issue that hasn't been discussed which I've seen turn to tragedy
is when you have a partial engine failure. If at anytime you are not able to
maintain altitude make the decison then to ditch it. If an airport then
becomes handy, great, land there. If it starts working again great, land at
the nearest airport, but stay prepared to ditch it. I, and Murphy, can both
assure you, if it is not able to maintain altitude then it will fail right
when you're counting on it the most to get you over that last whatever to
land at the primo spot.
W
Message 2
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| Subject: | prop repitch to 81 |
--> RV-List message posted by: chris m <vhmum@bigpond.com>
My figures revised again using a gps this time.
RV6 1045 pounds empty 0320 160 HP
8500 ft RPM 2600 MAN 22 speed TAS 171 Knots
A bit less than I worked out for previous flight but still playing
Chris and Susie
VH-MUM
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: my view of accidents/parachutes |
--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorto1537@rogers.com>
>--> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
>
>
>Jerry Springer wrote:
>>
>> --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
>>
>> michael michael wrote:
>> > --> RV-List message posted by: "michael michael"
>><top_gun_toronto@hotmail.com>
>> >
>> > I`m not looking to change any minds.
>> >
>> > In the spirit of EXPERIMENTAL aircraft. I will explore the safty
>>aspects of
>> > the envelope. I don`t mind being a geek. Or the one freak at the
>>circus. If
>> > having a propeller hat would inprove my chances you might just see me in
>> > it...
>> >
>> > I`m on my tail kit. Then Wing. When i`m on my fues. I`ll be on
>>here looking
>> > for ideas. But i`m going to have a BRS.
>> >
>> > I wont comment further then this message.
>> >
>> >
>> > Michael
>> > Safety nut in canada.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> That is to bad that you won't comment further. My only questions
>>would be are
>> you qualified to re design the aircraft to take a BRS? Things such
>>as structure
>> strength and shroud attach points. Weight and balance etc.? It well need an
>> hatch that well blow off when the chute is deployed, this could
>>greatly reduce
>> strength if not engineered right. What scenario are you thinking about
>> where you might need a BRS. Well I guess I won't get any answers to these
>> questions as you are not going to comment further.
>>
>> Jerry
>
>
>Jerry raises some valid points concerning a BRS installation on an RV. I
>speak with some experience since I installed a BRS on a MiniMax I built.
>The ballastic recovery chute is very clever engineering, but the
>importance of a highly engineered installation cannot be over
>emphasized!
>
>Based on my research about the BRS installation on the Minimax and from
>the actual installation, I haven't a clue as to how a BRS could be
>properly installed on an RV. The BRS is designed for light, slow, high
>drag airframes (hang gliders, ultralights, trikes, etc) and a safe,
>effective installation on a slick, heavy, fast aircraft would require
>engineering far beyond the capability of an individual builder. It was
>only after years of R&D on a particular airframe that a BRS appeared on
>a Cessna and Cirrus.
>
>I also would be interested in seeing comments from a builder that
>researches and installs a BRS on an RV. :-)
>
>Sam Buchanan (RV-6)
>
And even with the many hours of design and testing on the Cirrus BRS
system, the aircraft does not that that good a safety record. A
search of the NTSB shows six fatal accidents (not counting the one
that happened at Cirrus).
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/query.asp
And there was one event where the pilot tried to deploy the chute,
but he couldn't due to a combination of design and production
problems with the actuating handle and cable. So, if someone comes
up with a home-brew BRS system for RVs, there is no way to know
whether it would actually work when required. And the Cirrus
experience seems to show that even if you do test the system, all
that shows is that it worked when you tested it. If you reassemble
it incorrectly it still might not work when you need it.
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20020326X00393&key=1
--
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
Message 4
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--> RV-List message posted by: Dwpetrus@aol.com
The intermittent problem was every few minutes and they did not attempt to
find or fix it. They simply turned the unit on and check to see if it would
transmit and declared it ok. This happened on two times back to the factory and
the third time they were encouraged to replace it. Meanwhile I was out of a
radio for several months.
Wayne Petrus
RV8A
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: low power mystery on RV7A?? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Dwpetrus@aol.com
Can an 0360 180hp engine indicate 25 inches and 2500rpm and be making power
equal to 18inches and 2300rpm? This is the power setting I use in order to fly
with him.
Wayne
Message 6
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Wayne Reese" <waynereese@qwest.net>
Tracy,
Mayabe I have been reading what I wanted these msg say, but I thought
the majority state that a stopped prop is less drag than a windmilling
prop, but an engine at idle is less by far than a stopped.
Wayne
Hurry with Clyde's computer
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tracy Crook
Subject: Re: RV-List: stopped prop
--> RV-List message posted by: "Tracy Crook" <lors01@msn.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: stopped prop
A number of people have tried to point out on this thread that an
airplane
with a stopped prop will descend faster than an airplane with a
windmilling
prop. In each case it's implied that a windmilling prop on an engine
that
has *quit* will bring you down the slowest. That simply isn't true.
>SNIP<
---------
Rob Prior
rv7 "at" b4.ca
You are correct that a stopped prop has less drag than a windmilling
prop but I think you misconstrued the meaning of some of the prior
posts. The conclusion I drew was that it is virtually impossible to
determine the equivalent stopped prop drag with drag at some low
throttle setting. If you *think* you do, try shutting off the engine
and slowing down until it stops and then measure minimum sink rate. I
found it to be higher than expected.
One more point. Windmilling drag is less at full throttle than at low
throttle (engine dead condition) due to pumping losses in the engine.
Tracy Crook
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: AC rated switches for DC (was:Electrical question) |
--> RV-List message posted by: Bill Dube <bdube@al.noaa.gov>
Keep in mind that all of the ratings for a switch may not be listed on
its
side. (There often isn't enough room.) The only way to get all the ratings
is to look at the spec sheet from the manufacturer.
Message 8
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--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
Wheeler North wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North <wnorth@sdccd.cc.ca.us>
>
> Well,
>
> I am a nobody when it comes to being joe pilot, but I can tell you that
> after five unplanned airborne engine shut downs, it does take at least four
> to five seconds to get focused on the engine systems as the root your recent
> adrenalin surge. What hasn't been said is that 3 of those shut downs were
> corrected by doing something to the fuel valves. As a result my emergency
> routine is airspeed, then follow the air/fuel system.
>
> fuel valves, mixture, alternate air, throttle, then land with as little
> vertical velocity as possible if needed. The where you land isn't as
> important as we think, barring the obvious cliffs, buildings etc. What seems
> to make crash landings survivable is control and minimum vertical velocity
> at impact.
>
> What seems to make engines work is air and fuel. Mags, gears and things
> rarely catastrophically fail instantly if maintenance is good. Personally I
> would prefer to use my time getting the engine running rather then trying to
> make it back to an airport that probably has many industrial buildings or
> houses around it.
>
> Also, close the throttle just before touch down, we lost one plane years ago
> because it suddenly came back to full throttle life just as the plane
> touched down in the middle of an empty runway. Ground loop into a ditch, no
> one hurt.
>
> What is more useful to me is knowing how much altitude I will lose
> re-engaging airspeed and the engine. The last 200 ft should be exclusive to
> landing. I think some people who lose it, lose it because they aren't
> willing to make that decision, they haven't emotionally planned to make that
> decision, and the indecision is what amplifies the fear. A firm decison to
> give up on the engine or an optimum landing spot or whatever and just fly
> the plane down with a minimum vertical descent touchdown will do more for
> controlling the adrenalin than anything else. This I can tell you from
> experience.
>
> Another way of saying it is assume the ground is your friend, if you don't
> hit it hard you will love it very dearly from then on.
>
> The other issue that hasn't been discussed which I've seen turn to tragedy
> is when you have a partial engine failure. If at anytime you are not able to
> maintain altitude make the decison then to ditch it. If an airport then
> becomes handy, great, land there. If it starts working again great, land at
> the nearest airport, but stay prepared to ditch it. I, and Murphy, can both
> assure you, if it is not able to maintain altitude then it will fail right
> when you're counting on it the most to get you over that last whatever to
> land at the primo spot.
>
> W
>
Great sum up Wheeler, you covered it very well here. A controlled landing is
the only way to insure increased survival. I always tell my students while
practicing engine outs that I would much prefer to hit an obstacle at 20 or 30
mph at the far end of the the landing area than I would to stall spin or come up
short and hit something at 70 or 80 mph short of the landing spot.
The way I look at it they make airplanes and airplane kits everyday so don't
worry about bending the airplane. Survival is the name of the game at this point.
Jerry
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: low power mystery on RV7A?? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Stephen Johnson" <spjohnsn@ix.netcom.com>
There has been endless discussion on Superior vs. Lycoming which I won't
rehash here except to say that customer treatment now becomes a valid
concern for potential Superior buyers. For those who aren't aware of it,
when you get a new Lycoming from Van's, you get an engine that has been
checked out at various power settings with calibrated fuel flow
measurements, head temperature, MP, RPM etc. at the factory before shipment.
Steve Johnson
RV-8 project sold
looking for a flying RV in the future
----- Original Message -----
From: <Dwpetrus@aol.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: low power mystery on RV7A??
> --> RV-List message posted by: Dwpetrus@aol.com
>
> He has had the problem since installation and has been going back and
forth
> with the manufacturer ever since. It is not a kit built engine. The
mixture
> control has been checked and re-checked by multiple mechanics and that is
not
> the problem. (no slack). It is is Bendix/Precision fuel injection system.
If
> the prop were not set properly would the RPM still be within the normal
range
> as verified by a handheld tach. I don't know the compression numbers and
the
> timing has been check by the factory guy that came over from Dallas (even
> though I still think it is not just right).
> I will recommend checking ignition, valve timing, and compression check.
> Thanks for your interest and we welcome the thoughts.
>
> Wayne Petrus
> RV8A flying
>
>
Message 10
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--> RV-List message posted by: "DAVID REEL" <dreel@cox.net>
How precisely alike are the two blades of a Hartzell constant speed prop? I'm
finding in fitting my spinner that the same width hole that just clears one blade
will not clear the other. I haven't enlarged the opening enough to gain clearance
on the fat blade but I'd guess it's at least 1/16 inch fatter where the
spinner goes around it. It seems to me that differences like this could lead
to a lot of vibration so I wonder what others that have fitted their spinners
have found?
According to the assembly checklist from Hartzell, the low pitch blade angles at
30" radius checked out at 12.1 and 12.2 degrees. Although I haven't used this
new prop, I suppose the 'fat' blade might be stuck at a higher angle though.
It's interesting that the High pitch was 37.4 and 37.5 degrees respectively.
The factory tolerance is .2 degrees so it looks like this prop will have some
built-in thrust induced vibration.
Dave Reel - RV8A
Message 11
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Paul Besing" <azpilot@extremezone.com>
Common problem with the -6. Some fit great and don't have to be trimmed,
and some (like mine) didn't fit at all without trimming alot of skin, mostly
in the middle of the skin. I had about a 1/4" gap. I made a gap seal out
of fiberglass. It overlaps onto the forward fuselage skin while closed by
about 1/2".
Paul Besing
RV-6A Sold (Waiting on RV-10)
http://www.lacodeworks.com/besing
Kitlog Builder's Log Software
http://www.kitlog.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <phil.jones@medpacs.com>
Subject: RV-List: RV7A TIP UP
> --> RV-List message posted by: <phil.jones@medpacs.com>
>
> Has anyone had problems with the skin on the tipup frame hitting the
forward skin. It hits so much that it is impossable to tilt it up! If I put
a piece of aluminum against the tilt up skin and tilt it up letting the
aluminum move forward till it clears, when I close it their is a 1/8" gap
between the two skins. This only hit in the center where the is flat.
>
> Phil jones
>
>
Message 12
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--> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North <wnorth@sdccd.cc.ca.us>
somebody had a question about the encoder output of the dynon.
it works, I just hooked it up, after ATC got very upset at me for landing at
a 400 ft agl airport below class B when my encoder said I was at 8000 ft
committing acts of terrorism. Fortunately the tower guys all know me and
were glad to tell them I was in fact in the middle of the runway, not at
8000 ft.
Now I will bad mouth ACK, this is the second ACK product that I've tossed
after it was two years old. grrrr
W
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: low power mystery on RV7A?? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Newman" <newmanb@rocketmail.com>
It could indicate 25" X 2500 RPM and be making zero power. MP is not a direct
indication of power. Want to test that? Set up a normal cruise at 25x2500 and
then pull the mixture handle toward idle cutoff. The MP will still indicate
about 25", but power has gone way down. The MP only indicates how much air is
being pumped through the engine, and it takes fuel plus air to make power. The
fuel flow at a given MPxRPM will determine how much power is produced. Low
fuel flow, or excessively high fuel flow would yield less than expected power.
Your friend may want to install a fuel flow gauge to see if the flow is within
specifications. Does he have an EGT/CHT gauge? Monitoring EGT at takeoff power
is another indiction of correct mixture. The EGT should be in the 1250 degree
range. CHT in climb or cruise provides information too.
Best Regards,
Bob
> --> RV-List message posted by: Dwpetrus@aol.com
>
> Can an 0360 180hp engine indicate 25 inches and 2500rpm and be making power
> equal to 18inches and 2300rpm? This is the power setting I use in order to fly
> with him.
>
> Wayne
>
>
>
>
>
Bob
newmanb@rocketmail.com
newmanb@rocketmail.com
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: my view of accidents/parachutes |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Wow, you must have deep pockets, Isnt a BRS about 10~12 grand?
At 01:15 AM 7/3/03 +0000, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "michael michael" <top_gun_toronto@hotmail.com>
>
>I`m not looking to change any minds.
>
>In the spirit of EXPERIMENTAL aircraft. I will explore the safty aspects of
>the envelope. I don`t mind being a geek. Or the one freak at the circus. If
>having a propeller hat would inprove my chances you might just see me in
>it...
>
>I`m on my tail kit. Then Wing. When i`m on my fues. I`ll be on here looking
>for ideas. But i`m going to have a BRS.
>
>I wont comment further then this message.
>
>
>Michael
>Safety nut in canada.
>
>
>>From: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
>>Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com
>>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: Re: RV-List: my view of accidents/parachutes Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003
>>17:47:06 -0700 (PDT)
>>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
>>
>>What the heck, my two cents, too...
>>
>>Curt, I understand what you're saying about a proper analysis, but I think
>>you're really reaching with your examples. I don't see any basis for
>>assuming
>>that raising the 1-G stall speed a bit increases the probability of a
>>stall-spin accident. And the accidental deployment over water scenario is
>>pretty far-fetched, too (possible, of course, but not very near the top of
>>my
>>list of concerns).
>>
>>I'm not pro-BRS, necessarily, but it would be a very great addition to
>>safety
>>for someone flying single-engine IFR, especially over rough terrain. For
>>VFR
>>use, in an RV, it doesn't seem worth it.
>>
>>As for airbags, it's important to remember that they exist only because
>>people
>>don't wear seat belts. They contribute very little to the safety of some
>>who
>>is properly belted in a car. Airplane occupant protection is in the stone
>>age
>>compared to passenger cars, though, so they might be of more value there.
>>But
>>I agree with whoever suggested that it requires pretty significant
>>engineering
>>to design a proper system. Having read a paper on MB's attempt to develop
>>air
>>bags for production-based racing cars, it doesn't seem to me that it's
>>financially viable to offer an airbag system for the kit plane market that
>>is
>>effective, or even safe. The development cost would be huge, even assuming
>>you
>>could use mostly off-the-shelf technology.
>>
>>Tedd McHenry
>>Surrey, BC
>>-6 wings
>>DO NOT ARCHIVE
>>
>>On Wed, 2 Jul 2003, Curt Reimer wrote:
>>
>> > --> RV-List message posted by: "Curt Reimer" <cgreimer@mb.sympatico.ca>
>> >
>> > My $.02: Nothing is ever as simple and obvious as it first appears.
>>Weight
>> > increases stall speed. If you carry around a BRS will that 60 lbs+ of
>>added
>> > airframe weight someday be the difference between a low altitude
>>stall/spin
>> > accident or not? How about accidental deployment in the middle of a long
>> > over-water flight? Any proper statistical analysis must consider those
>> > situations, however remote, in which the BRS might actually contribute
>>to an
>> > accident, in addition to those cases where it saves the day.
>> >
>> > Curt
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: my view of accidents/parachutes |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
It would need to be the spar and rear wing attach I would think. I would
not trust anything else.
At 09:05 PM 7/2/03 -0500, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Chris W <chrisw3@cox.net>
>
>michael michael wrote:
>
>> I`m on my tail kit. Then Wing. When i`m on my fues. I`ll be on here
>looking for
>> ideas. But i`m going to have a BRS.
>
>It will be interesting to see how and where you attach the thing to an RV.
>Keep
>us informed.
>
>do not archive
>
>--
>Chris Woodhouse
>3147 SW 127th St.
>Oklahoma City, OK 73170
>405-691-5206
>chrisw@programmer.net
>N35 20.492'
>W97 34.342'
>
>"They that can give up essential liberty
>to obtain a little temporary safety
>deserve neither liberty nor safety."
>-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: low power mystery on RV7A?? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
Bob Newman wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Newman" <newmanb@rocketmail.com>
>
> It could indicate 25" X 2500 RPM and be making zero power. MP is not a direct
> indication of power. Want to test that? Set up a normal cruise at 25x2500 and
> then pull the mixture handle toward idle cutoff. The MP will still indicate
> about 25", but power has gone way down. The MP only indicates how much air is
> being pumped through the engine, and it takes fuel plus air to make power. The
> fuel flow at a given MPxRPM will determine how much power is produced. Low
> fuel flow, or excessively high fuel flow would yield less than expected power.
> Your friend may want to install a fuel flow gauge to see if the flow is within
> specifications. Does he have an EGT/CHT gauge? Monitoring EGT at takeoff power
> is another indiction of correct mixture. The EGT should be in the 1250 degree
> range. CHT in climb or cruise provides information too.
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Bob
>
Bob, most of what you say is true. I would disagree with the 1250 degree range.
EGT numbers really do not mean much, they can change drastically depending on
the probes and location in exhaust system. Peak and low EGT numbers are really
just a benchmark the actual number itself means little. This is not a big deal
unless someone thinks that there is a problem if their numbers are not in the
range you list.
Jerry
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: PropBladeShape |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
The blades are made on CNC equipment. +-.005 should be easy for them to
hold. +-.010 with there eyes closed. Give them a call something does not
sound right.
At 11:35 AM 7/3/03 -0400, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "DAVID REEL" <dreel@cox.net>
>
>How precisely alike are the two blades of a Hartzell constant speed prop?
>I'm finding in fitting my spinner that the same width hole that just clears
>one blade will not clear the other. I haven't enlarged the opening enough
>to gain clearance on the fat blade but I'd guess it's at least 1/16 inch
>fatter where the spinner goes around it. It seems to me that differences
>like this could lead to a lot of vibration so I wonder what others that have
>fitted their spinners have found?
>
>According to the assembly checklist from Hartzell, the low pitch blade
>angles at 30" radius checked out at 12.1 and 12.2 degrees. Although I
>haven't used this new prop, I suppose the 'fat' blade might be stuck at a
>higher angle though. It's interesting that the High pitch was 37.4 and 37.5
>degrees respectively. The factory tolerance is .2 degrees so it looks like
>this prop will have some built-in thrust induced vibration.
>
>Dave Reel - RV8A
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: low power mystery on RV7A?? |
--> RV-List message posted by: <klwerner@comcast.net>
I agree with Jerry here, just go for instance to the Lightspeed website:
There it says that you can expect "Lower exhaust gas temperatures by 100-150 deg",
whilst having an "Increased horse power output and/or Reduced fuel consumption"
So any given number by itself is really not that good to go by, without
all the other parameters being taken into account as well.
Konrad
Bob, most of what you say is true. I would disagree with the 1250 degree range.
EGT numbers really do not mean much, they can change drastically depending on
the probes and location in exhaust system. Peak and low EGT numbers are really
just a benchmark the actual number itself means little. This is not a big deal
unless someone thinks that there is a problem if their numbers are not in the
range you list.
Jerry
> SNIP <
> Your friend may want to install a fuel flow gauge to see if the flow is within
> specifications. Does he have an EGT/CHT gauge? Monitoring EGT at takeoff power
> is another indiction of correct mixture. The EGT should be in the 1250 degree
> range. CHT in climb or cruise provides information too.
> Best Regards,
> Bob
Message 19
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| Subject: | Transition training |
--> RV-List message posted by: mark phipps <skydive80020@yahoo.com>
A friend of mine is looking for RV-6 transition/ tail wheel training in the Denver
Metro, Front range area. Any names or contacts would be appreciated.
---------------------------------
Message 20
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--> RV-List message posted by: "KostaLewis" <mikel@dimensional.com>
I've been asked by several folks what emergency checklist I was mumbling
during my sunset flight the other night. Mine is SIMPLE, just like me.
Is it on a check list? You bet (you DO have check lists, don't you?).
But suddenly the noise stops and you jump to do things and knock your
check list off your knee board onto the floor and where IS that damn
list I need it NOW I'll just reach down here and gra
Nuff said. You need to have it stuck in your grey matter (brain), not on
your knee. I gaaarooonteeee you will not have time to look at, nor
should you be distracted from the essentials (FLYING) to be gandering at
a checklist. From 12,000 feet? Go right ahead. From 500 feet? Forget it.
Suzie Q is a -4. We like each other. I take care of her, she takes care
of me. Which is to say my emergency check list begins in the hanger. I
maintain her like a Swiss watch; no compromises. My fuel system is
Neanderthal simple. Handle of the valve points at the tank I am using.
One position for OFF. My preflights are a Zen thing: I am thinking of
nothing else at the time. If you ask me something or talk to me, you
will be politely ignored. And I do a simple go 'round every time I get
out of the airplane; (OK: what could kill me here: gas cap off; water in
fuel; jet A instead of avgas [smell the stuff]; tail wheel springs
unattached; no oil in the engine). I have NEVER (touch wood) left a fuel
cap off or oil door open.
OK; enough of a set up.
In MY emergency checklist: RRRRRRRRRRRRrrrrrrrrrcoughrr rrr rrr
urp
Trottle and mixture full forward; fuel pump on; carb heat on; switch
tanks; mags/restart; close cockpit air (don't want SMOKE in here). Fly
the airplane; 85 is best glide; flaps as necessary. FLY THE AIRPLANE.
(Got the field picked out, coming down. We are committed to land) Master
off; fuel off; mags off; ELT on; FLY THE AIRPLANE; land.
BUT: this sounds like a complicated thing to be saying to yourself. It
is. THIS is what I say OUT LOUD instead:
GAS; GAS; PUMP; HEAT; FUEL; SPARK; AIR
85; 85; FLAPS; FLY; FLY;
SPARK; SPARK; FUEL; E; FLY FLY FLY
Told you it was simple. Almost embarrassing. But it WORKS for me. It is
syncopated which makes it easier to say and remember, like a poem.
"GAS; GAS" is throttle, mixture; "PUMP; HEAT" are fuel pump and carb
heat, all done with my left hand; "FUEL" is switch tanks; "SPARK" is
mags/restart; "AIR" closes cockpit air
"SPARK; SPARK" is mags off, master off; "FUEL; E" is fuel off, ELT on.
The rest is obvious.
Will this work for you? Who knows. Make up something SIMPLE that does
work. This is mine. Don't post a note to tell me I've left something out
or that it is a stupid method. I've used it for years. What's yours? I
use it at LEAST once a month as I am out PRACTICING emergency procedures
(you DO practice that regularly, don't you). When you are trying not to
wet yourself, having something you can suddenly bring in to play that is
like a memorized poem may save your life. I mumble the list when I'm on
a cross country or just out dogging around to keep it fresh.
Landing: Power is now not a factor, except your stored power of
altitude. Too much; slip and flaps. Too low: drop the flaps and clean
things up, maintaining your best glide, of course. (What is the best
glide for YOUR airplane. It may be different than mine.) It is something
you need to practice. Did I mention PRACTICING? Now:it is WAY better to
land long than land short as it is much better to smack into something
going 35 kts at the END of your roll than 85 at the BEGINNING. So plan
for that. That includes ditches and trees.
Enough. I love my airplane. But I know she has hidden demons that I need
to be aware of that can suddenly come out and BITE. I try to minimize
that in the hanger. But things can happen. I expect them to; it CAN
happen to me. I have a plan. I practice it often. I use something
SIMPLE. I never want to see if it actually works.
IMHO, of course
Michael
RV-4 N232 Suzie Q
Just came back from my morning flight. Colorado. What a place to
fly.........mumble mumble
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: low power mystery on RV7A?? |
--> RV-List message posted by: janenjoe@juno.com
Are the gauges calibrated?
Joe
On Thu, 3 Jul 2003 08:58:13 EDT Dwpetrus@aol.com writes:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Dwpetrus@aol.com
>
> Can an 0360 180hp engine indicate 25 inches and 2500rpm and be
> making power
> equal to 18inches and 2300rpm? This is the power setting I use in
> order to fly
> with him.
>
> Wayne
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: low power mystery on RV7A?? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Eustace Bowhay" <ebowhay@jetstream.net>
Talked to Bart Lalonde at Aero Sport Power and since this has been a
problem since installation he says there may be a possibility that the cam
is out of time. Give him a call at 250 376 1223 and he would be happy to
help solve the problem.
Eustace Bowhay Blind Bay, B.C.
----- Original Message -----
From: <Dwpetrus@aol.com>
Subject: RV-List: low power mystery on RV7A??
> --> RV-List message posted by: Dwpetrus@aol.com
>
> My friends RV7A is suffering from extreme low power. His airplane is
35mph
> slower than my RV8A and it climbs like a loaded Skyhawk. At 2500 rpm and
25
> inches man. pres. he is getting about 150mph at 5000 ft. He also has to
lean
> the mixture about half way out to keep it running smooth on the ground and
at
> low altitudes. He has a Superior EXP 360 with fuel injection (180hp) and
lasar
> ignition and a new 3 blade MT prop from Van's. We have checked the RPM at
all
> ranges with a hand held tach and have verified that his MP reads the same
as
> mine with the engines off on the ground. He has already swapped fuel
injector
> servos twice and talked with the people at American in Dallas where he
bought
> the engine numerous times. They promised to put him in touch with an
engine
> guru soon, but I would welcome any suggestions from the group. I don't
> understand how he could be getting that type of power indications and not
making the
> power?
>
> Wayne Petrus
> RV8A
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Transition training |
--> RV-List message posted by: chris m <vhmum@bigpond.com>
Mark
my wife and I did our tail wheel endorsement at Aurora airpark just
down the road from Front Range airport.
The chap we used came very highly recommended. He was great, one of these
blokes with a zillion hours with nothing to prove and is just there to help
you fly safe. We both had great fun.
Anyway the chaps name is Kent Ferguson Telephone 303 361 9630 or cel 720
6355063.
If you use him can you let him know that Chris and Susie McGough from
Australia say hello and are happy flying there tailwheel RV6.
If he does not remember just say mates of Denis Walsh
Chris and Susie
VH-MUM
----- Original Message -----
From: "mark phipps" <skydive80020@yahoo.com>
Subject: RV-List: Transition training
> --> RV-List message posted by: mark phipps <skydive80020@yahoo.com>
>
> A friend of mine is looking for RV-6 transition/ tail wheel training in
the Denver Metro, Front range area. Any names or contacts would be
appreciated.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: my view of accidents/parachutes |
--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorto1537@rogers.com>
I would imagine that the loads on the attach points could be quite
high, depending on the speed at the time the BRS chute was deployed.
The rear spar attach point is only designed to handle the torsion
loads on the wing. I doubt it could be counted on to take the
potential BRS loads without failing. So, they would need to be
beefed up, and whoever designed the beef-up would need to know what
they were doing or they could easily introduce a stress concentration
that would reduce the fatigue life, and lead to a risk of an
in-flight wing failure.
So a poorly designed BRS mod could easily reduce the level of safety.
Kevin Horton
>--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>
>It would need to be the spar and rear wing attach I would think. I would
>not trust anything else.
>
>
>At 09:05 PM 7/2/03 -0500, you wrote:
>>--> RV-List message posted by: Chris W <chrisw3@cox.net>
>>
>>michael michael wrote:
>>
>>> I`m on my tail kit. Then Wing. When i`m on my fues. I`ll be on here
>>looking for
>>> ideas. But i`m going to have a BRS.
>>
>>It will be interesting to see how and where you attach the thing to an RV.
>>Keep
>>us informed.
>>
>>do not archive
>>
>>--
>>Chris Woodhouse
>>3147 SW 127th St.
>>Oklahoma City, OK 73170
>>405-691-5206
>>chrisw@programmer.net
>>N35 20.492'
>>W97 34.342'
>>
>>"They that can give up essential liberty
>>to obtain a little temporary safety
>>deserve neither liberty nor safety."
>>-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania
>>
>>
>
>
>Scott Bilinski
>Eng dept 305
>Phone (858) 657-2536
>Pager (858) 502-5190
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Bucking bars again |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Elsa & Henry" <elsa-henry@darlor-watch.com>
> I very strongly recommend you visit Harbor Freight or tool store of your
choice and buy a cheap metal cutting bandsaw. It will cut your parts while
you do other things and then switch itself off. This will transform the
task of cutting all the angle you have in front of you and will also allow
you pick up some cheap steel from a scrap yard for making your own bucking
bars in different sizes weights and angles to suit your needs. I used a
couple of feet of 2" X 1" bar at a cost of 30c a pound and have made all my
bars except one, (a TP670). Make heavier bars for the bigger rivets. Bevel
the edges and then polish on a fine sanding disk followed by a Scotchbrite
wheel.
> Inside the bottom of the rudder was awkward and I made a couple of small
triangular blocks which were welded onto short lengths of rod for this. If
you have access to a welder you can extend the reach of your bars with tube
or rod which can be ground off later if necessary.
> Use your ingenuity, buy the difficult to make ones at fly ins and make as
many as you need and your riveting will become easier.
> Remember that when working in confined spaces apart from the risk of
slipping off the rivet the other end of the bar can do damage. A small
piece of soft cloth taped around the free end will minimise the risk of
damage.
> Good luck and remember almost all of us have a dent or two somewhere.
> Rob
> Rob W M Shipley
> RV9A N919RV (res) Fuselage
I second the above. I found the Avery # 610 bar useful for bucking rivets in
curved surfaces such as inside the turtle deck. I also have one shaped like
the #620 but from another supplier. The Avery extra long back-riveting set
#4850 worked great for me in doing my top wing skins which were put on first
with my wife holding a massive flat bar aginst the head of the rivet as I
pounded the other end to form the shop head. No skin distortion his way as
it isn't being pounded.
The ones I used the most were home made. I obtained a 2' long bar of steel,
1 1/2" wide x 1/2" thk from
a scrap yard and made several different bucking bars from it about 2" to 2
1/2 long. The ends can be cut (and polished, as per Rob's post), at
different angles to fit the application. For instance, one is cut across the
width dimension at one end at a 10 degree angle and the other end cut
perpendicularly but at a 10 degree angle on the thickness dimension. That
angle is to account for the taper of the fuselage towards the tail and it
then is easy to buck rivets with the bar resting against the flanges of the
bulkheads. Another one is cut perpendicularly across but an area at the
center about 3/4" wide is left perpendicular and the bar is tapered to each
side from there. This one is useful when bucking rivets close together along
flat surfaces and the tapered sides prevent mashing the adjacent rivet(s).
Especially useful if you have to drill out a bad rivet and you have a good
one each side of it!
ALL my bars are wrapped copiously with duck-tape. One little trick I used on
bars where I was reaching into blind areas, was to tape bits of PVC plastic
over the bucking end leaving an area about 1/2" free of the PVC. Then
reaching in to the blind area, I could "feel " where to center the bar away
from the PVC then pound away. Worked great!
Just a few ideas!-------Cheers---Henry Hore
Message 26
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--> RV-List message posted by: Tom Brandon <tombrandon@mac.com>
They left on vacation today. Be back July 11th.
On 7/2/03 7:26 PM, "bert murillo" <bert6@mybluelight.com> wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: " bert murillo" <bert6@mybluelight.com>
>
> Hi:
>
> Any one knows if the Ordorffs, are out of business?
>
> I order seats for my rv6, back in March,, told me
> early June,, never heard a word since. Tried to e-mail
> at www.fly-gbi.com, but cannot send message, this
> e mail does not exist...I am copying from the Brouchure..
>
> Terrible service..
Message 27
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|
| Subject: | Re: Re : Icom Radio |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jack Lockamy" <jacklockamy@att.net>
I have used the ICOM A-200 with exceptionally good results. So good in fact that I just bought a second A200 for my -7A. Got a great price from Tom Boyd at Global Aviation in Australia (brand new unit for $650). (see www.globalav.com.au). I have bought two A-200's and an intercom from Global. Can't beat the service or the price....
Jack Lockamy
Camarillo, CA
RV-7AQB N174JL reserved
www.jacklockamy.com
Message 28
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| Subject: | I will not make 35 will try for the other runway... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Michel" <rv8ter@rogers.com>
On June 1, 2003 , that was my last call to Stratford Unicom. Severe
vibration and smoke forced me to pull the mixture to ICO and master off, a
few seconds later the propeller came to a halt vertically. After finally
admitting that this was really happening to me and the smoke subsided, I put
the master back on to make that call and have the flaps available. Well it
does float a lot more with the propeller stopped as I ended up way high on
runway 23. With wild S turns and sideslip I made a non impressive arrival on
the last quarter of the runway. My thirteen year old daughter and I pushed
it the rest of the way to the ramp. After taking the cowling off everything
looked fine except for few drops of oil in the bottom cowling, the broken
left magneto that had come out of the engine and, the fact that the engine
was seized of course.
This is a brand new IO-360 A1B6 with Lasar ignition and I was returning to
do the 100 hr inspection.
Lycoming organized to take a look at the engine and determine where the
fault lies.
My frustration now is it has been over a month and it's still outstanding
and they are 6 hrs driving distance from Stratford.
Does anybody have experience dealing with them on something like this?
All in all my daughter and I were very lucky in this mishap particularly
after reading about these past tragedies.
Michel
81117 103 hrs
P.S. Keep on building guys these are exceptions, I also have 1,200 hrs in my
RV3 and it's still going strong after 20 years.
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: GPS - RAIM Prediction |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ralph W. Pawlak" <RWPRV6A@bellsouth.net>
Hi George,
I misspoke about FSS being able to provide raim notam information. They used
to until about 6-7 months ago, but as is far to common these days in the
government, budget cuts have forced them to give up that service. The notams
could give accurate raim outages up to I think 60 hours in advance. It would
be nice to have that service again, but as with the raim notams, the flight
service days are numbered too.
----- Original Message -----
From: "George McNutt" <gmcnutt@intergate.ca>
Subject: RE: RV-List: GPS - RAIM Prediction
> --> RV-List message posted by: "George McNutt" <gmcnutt@intergate.ca>
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Ralph W. Pawlak" <RWPRV6A@bellsouth.net>
>
> gps raim information is available through your soon to be closed or
> contracted out FAA Flight Service Stations.
>
> Hi Ralph
>
> I have heard that there are commercial providers who can supply RAIM
> predictions but have not been able to locate any of them.
>
> I am also aware that FSS notams give satellite outages etc but can you
> confirm that the FSS can provide RAIM predictions, that would be really
> great.
>
> My aircraft is marginally equipped for IFR and I hate to get an
> un-anticipated RAIM warning on the GPS.
>
> Any info would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> George McNutt
> Langley B.C.
>
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | My view on safety/parachutes(long) |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Wiethe, Philip (P.J.)" <pwiethe@ford.com>
If you want to fly and sleep at night, you will have to accept the fact that no
matter what, there will be greater than a 0.0 % chance you will get killed doing
it.
However, in the interests of safety, there is always a cost vs. benefit analysis
that can be done.
There is a flying machine that is more scrutinized, engineered, etc., than any
other in the world, containing backups, upon backups, upon backups, yet in relative
terms has an abysmal safety record. Yet each of us on this list would most
likely go up in it in a heartbeat, no questions asked. These are the shuttle
orbiters. This is the cost vs. benefit - the cost - risk is high, but the
benefit - experience of space flight - is enormous.
On an RV - you have to make the trade off as to what is the acceptable level of
risk vs. the reward of flying such a great plane. In this cost/benefit analysis,
there is another cost/benefit analysis on the level of money/time you can/are
willing to spend on the plane, and the increased level of safety achieved.
Depending on the type of flying you intend to do (IFR/VFR), money can be spent
to increase the level of safety on such things as - on board weather radar,
collision avoidance systems, backup electrical systems, backup vacuum gyros,
AOA's, more pilot training, a BRS, etc, etc. In trying to analyze the safety
increase vs. $ spent (both material and labor) of adding a BRS to an RV, in
my non-analytical estimate will not pay off - especially if you want to be reasonably
assured you are not ending up with something less safe than an RV without
one. We're talking about at minimum a high dollar budget for CAD/CAE/Finite
element analysis which would be the cheaper alter!
native to an actual prototype test program (best would be both of course). I
think the aforementioned items would have a much higher payout in terms of bang
for the buck. Just my $.02. Shitcan as appropriate.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Phil Wiethe
Ford Motor Co.
Powertrain Engineering
(These views in no way reflect the views of Ford Motor Co.)
Message 31
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| Subject: | my view of accidents/parachutes delete if not interested |
--> RV-List message posted by: "George McNutt" <gmcnutt@intergate.ca>
>Ross Schlotthauer
>RV-7 Finishing
>
> I`m new the list.
> I`m taking my pilot lic right now.
> I want to fly the RV-7 & have bought the kit tail kit. In a few years I
> might be in the air.
>
> Do any RV owners have BRS parachute systems installed. It seems to me when
> your landing speed is over 50 mph, even a good off airport landing will be
> very risky. Plus even if you do survive chances are your traped upside
> down.
> If its good enouf for a Cessna it should be good enouf for my RV
> Please feel free to tell me i dont know what i`m talking about....cause
>i`m new & i don`t. So educate me. Is the non use of parachutes a macho
thing?
>
> I read the accident report on the RV line from RV World Wing & Ntsb. Over
> 50 people killed out of 4500 planes flying....Thats 1 in 90 chance of not
> walking away. I`m new...will make mistakes...want to live to a ripe old
> age & have a blast at 200mph. I wont be flying my plane without a BRS
balistic
> parachute system installed. & i dont work for the company....;)
>
>
> Please tell me, am i the only person thinkng this ?
>
>
> Michael
> Toronto Canada.
> Safety crazy in Canada
>
>
Cirrus have been kind enough to put their Pilots Operating Handbook on their
web site, (sorry you will have to do the search). Download the .pdf file and
read about their parachute system for yourself, it is a very interesting
read and includes some test info.
Warning labels on the activation handle read (1)use for extreme emergencies
only (2) seat belts and shoulder harness must be worn at all times (3) use
of this device could result in injury or death. They also say the aircraft
will be destroyed.
My conclusion was that I have more to fear from a loss of control due to
brake failure and resulting in subsequent aircraft roll over, therefore a
dual brake system or drag chute would add more safety!
George McNutt
Langley, B.C.
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: stopped prop |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Tracy Crook" <lors01@msn.com>
Well, now we are at the point where the devil is in the details. It depends
on where the idle stop is adjusted. A tiny difference here will greatly
affect the outcome. On my very unorthodox engine installation, the throttle
will go to *fully* closed, not just idle (never mind why, long story) and
it will definitely give zero power when the throttle quadrant is back all
the way and simulates a windmilling prop with no ignition and throttle
closed. The throttle position change to get to the equivalent of a stopped
prop is exceedingly small and probably not practical to use.
I liked the partial flaps for engine out simulation that someone
mentioned. Now that I know my stopped prop sink rate it should be a simple
matter to find the flap setting to get there. I'll try it the next time
that fate allows me the chance to fly that wonderful machine again.
Tracy Crook
rotary powered RV-4
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne Reese" <waynereese@qwest.net>
Subject: RE: RV-List: stopped prop
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Wayne Reese" <waynereese@qwest.net>
>
> Tracy,
> Mayabe I have been reading what I wanted these msg say, but I thought
> the majority state that a stopped prop is less drag than a windmilling
> prop, but an engine at idle is less by far than a stopped.
> Wayne
> Hurry with Clyde's computer
>
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: I will not make 35 will try for the other |
runway...
--> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes <kempthornes@earthlink.net>
At 10:29 PM 7/2/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Michel" <rv8ter@rogers.com>
>
>On June 1, 2003 , that was my last call to Stratford Unicom. Severe
>vibration and smoke forced me to pull the mixture to ICO and master off, a
>few seconds later the propeller came to a halt vertically.
..................
>This is a brand new IO-360 A1B6 with Lasar ignition and I was returning to
>do the 100 hr inspection.
Ah well, at least the engine only cost about $25000 - call your lawyer,
urgent! Like NOW.
hal
Message 34
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| Subject: | my view of accidents/parachutes delete if not interested |
--> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
> Warning labels on the activation handle read (1)use for extreme emergencies
> only (2) seat belts and shoulder harness must be worn at all times (3) use
> of this device could result in injury or death. They also say the aircraft
> will be destroyed.
It sounds like the BRS ought to be used the same way an ejection seat is used:
only when you will almost certainly die if you don't use it. There are very
few scenarios in an RV where that would be the case. Total engine failure in
IMC with no chance of a glide to VMC or a suitable airfield would be one.
Total engine failure over terrain that is thoroughly unsuitable for a forced
landing would be another. For most RVers, those are pretty low-probability
events, although if you fly a lot of hard IFR in your RV it might be worth
considering (as would a more suitable airplane).
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
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