Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:39 AM - Re: my view of accidents/parachutes delete if not interested (MSices)
2. 06:32 AM - Don't Turn Back (Doug Rozendaal)
3. 07:20 AM - Re: Don't Turn Back (Jeff Orear)
4. 07:36 AM - Re: I will not make 35 will try for the other runway... (N67BT@aol.com)
5. 03:19 PM - Fw: Don't Turn Back (Doug Rozendaal)
6. 03:46 PM - RV-7 Kit for sale (John Brick)
7. 07:42 PM - Empennage and wing kit forsale (PASSPAT@aol.com)
8. 08:31 PM - Re: Don't Turn Back (Dana Overall)
9. 08:51 PM - Re: Don't Turn Back (Sam Buchanan)
10. 09:04 PM - Re: Don't Turn Back (Jerry Springer)
Message 1
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| Subject: | my view of accidents/parachutes delete if not interested |
--> RV-List message posted by: "MSices" <msices@core.com>
Not that the list needs yet another view on this, but IMHO a BRS is
functionally equivalent in terms of safety to having the second engine on a
twin. Most people feel comfortable flying twins at night, in IMC, over
water or mountains (i.e.. places with no glide to land). But the fact is
that twins have a much lower safety record than singles. Dick Collins wrote
an article were he stated he thinks this is because of overconfidence of the
pilots who think that twins are bullet-proof and can fly into anything
(weather or otherwise). But others feel that it is due to the fact that you
have twice the chance of an engine failure in a twin, and if an engine goes,
many pilots do not have the recency of training to handle the emergency.
My RV8 is IFR equipped and I would like to be able to fly in the clouds, but
I always worry about an engine-out over poor terrain or in IMC. The pilot
of a Cirrus with a BRS system has the safety statistics of a single to feel
good about as well as the fact that under the two circumstances you mention
(engine failure over poor terrain or in IMC) there is a possible safety net.
My understanding is that on the Cirrus the BRS has been tested and works.
Apparently, it has even been deployed once by a purchaser/owner in an
emergency with the desired effect (pilot and passengers lived although plane
destroyed). If BRS and Vans were to work together and develop one for the
RV series, I would buy it. But, I don't even think BRS will sell you one
for an RV because they know it will not work without some major engineering.
Michael Sices
RV8 - Painting
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tedd McHenry
Subject: RE: RV-List: my view of accidents/parachutes delete if not
interested
It sounds like the BRS ought to be used the same way an ejection seat is
used:
only when you will almost certainly die if you don't use it. There are very
few scenarios in an RV where that would be the case. Total engine failure
in
IMC with no chance of a glide to VMC or a suitable airfield would be one.
Total engine failure over terrain that is thoroughly unsuitable for a forced
landing would be another. For most RVers, those are pretty low-probability
events, although if you fly a lot of hard IFR in your RV it might be worth
considering (as would a more suitable airplane).
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
---
Message 2
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr@petroblend.com>
All,
Almost annually we have this discussion after an accident like this. I am
alive today because I was, barely, able to overcome the urge to turn back
after an engine failure. Several years ago I posted that story on a web
page and here it is.
http://www.petroblend.com/dougr/dnt-turn.htm
Anyone who takes a BFR with me they will have an engine failure after take
off at a altitude high enough to make them think they might be able turn
back. If they try, it will be a looooong afternoon.
Please read this story! Please argue with me all you want, and PLEASE,
when the fire goes out, lower the nose and land somewhere ahead of the wing.
As the defender of Don't Turn Back, I remain.....
Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
P.S. For those who wish to say they can do it, that is not my arguement. I
know it can be done, in some airplanes, at some airports in some conditions,
but every year someone gets killed trying it.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Don't Turn Back |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Orear" <jorear@new.rr.com>
Doug:
Great post and story.
What I get out of it as a summarization is first, fly the plane. Second,
keep "skin, tin, ticket" constantly in your mind.
And last, don't do nuth'n stupid.
Fly safe out there guys.
Regards,
Jeff Orear
RV6A
fuselage (waiting for finish kit....engine on the way!!)
Peshtigo, WI
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr@petroblend.com>
Subject: RV-List: Don't Turn Back
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr@petroblend.com>
>
> All,
>
> Almost annually we have this discussion after an accident like this. I am
> alive today because I was, barely, able to overcome the urge to turn back
> after an engine failure. Several years ago I posted that story on a web
> page and here it is.
>
> http://www.petroblend.com/dougr/dnt-turn.htm
>
> Anyone who takes a BFR with me they will have an engine failure after take
> off at a altitude high enough to make them think they might be able turn
> back. If they try, it will be a looooong afternoon.
>
> Please read this story! Please argue with me all you want, and PLEASE,
> when the fire goes out, lower the nose and land somewhere ahead of the
wing.
>
> As the defender of Don't Turn Back, I remain.....
>
> Tailwinds,
> Doug Rozendaal
>
> P.S. For those who wish to say they can do it, that is not my arguement.
I
> know it can be done, in some airplanes, at some airports in some
conditions,
> but every year someone gets killed trying it.
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: I will not make 35 will try for the other runway... |
--> RV-List message posted by: N67BT@aol.com
In a message dated 7/3/2003 11:08:17 PM Mountain Standard Time,
kempthornes@earthlink.net writes:
> Ah well, at least the engine only cost about $25000 - call your lawyer,
> urgent! Like NOW.
>
Try $47,500.00 retail or $32,250.00 from Van's.
Message 5
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr@petroblend.com>
Our resident real test pilot sent me this.
I never claimed to be an aeronautical engineer, and as you can see I am not.
I will fix the article.
Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Horton" <khorto1537@rogers.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Don't Turn Back
> Doug,
>
> Nice article - thanks for posting it.
>
> One small math glitch in your landing speed discussion - 65 kt vs 45
> kt is a 44% speed increase, leading to 2.1 times the kinetic energy.
> Your basic point is still valid, but you might as well sort out the
> numbers, as wrong numbers make it easier for people to discount your
> point.
>
> Fly safe,
>
> Kevin
Message 6
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| Subject: | RV-7 Kit for sale |
--> RV-List message posted by: "John Brick" <jbrick@wolfenet.com>
Posted for Frank Lanier
John,
I was wondering if you would post my RV-7 wing and tail kit for sale to the
chapter. Trying to work on the plane while having two baby girls is just
too much ... I'm not getting anything done on it and at the same time I'm
not flying, so I've begrudgingly made the decision to sell and just buy a
flying plane. The details of the kit are below:
Right spars completed ... ready to start adding ribs
Left wing is just about ready for skinning
Left fuel tank completed with no leaks
AOA kit "A" with ports installed
Whelen position/strobe for the left wing
Gretz pitot mount (chrome)... needs to be fitted and installed
Duckworks 55watt landing lights for each wing (left one installed)
Now, on the tail, I completed one tail kit and while I found my work
acceptable by my standards (I've seen much worse flying)
I really thought I could do better if I had another chance, so I bought
a new tail kit which is still unopened in the box.
Tools ... I'm a tool freak, so I am very well tooled on this project
including a pneumatic squeezer and quite a few yokes.
I'm asking $6500 for the wing and tail, $8000 with all the tools to go with
it. Interested parties can either email me at frank@lanieronline.net or
give me a call at 425-432-1703.
BTW - Once this sales, do you know anyone that's got a good deal on a plane?
I'm interested in either a citiabria (7kcab) or maybe a sundowner.
Thanks,
Frank Lanier
Maple Valley, WA
Message 7
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| Subject: | Empennage and wing kit forsale |
--> RV-List message posted by: PASSPAT@aol.com
To Anyone interested
I have a RV-8 / 8-A wing and emp kits completly finished Tanks
included except for the fiberglass parts . Price for the lot $7500.00 . all
interrested please reply off the list.
Pat Patterson
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Don't Turn Back |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" <bo124rs@hotmail.com>
I don't like to respond to these threads but as Doug so pointedly
illustrated, there is a reason these turns are called "dead man turns".
In addition to the loss of lift by turning into a tailwind, as bank angle is
increased (as in pucker factor) to 60 degrees, the G load is doubled on the
wings thereby increasing the stall speed dramatically. The lost of lift
passing through the 90 degree turn through a headwind and one is looking
directly at the ground as a result of low wing wingtip stall thereby giving
the soon to be non pilot a clear view of the world upside down with the hard
stuff rapidly approaching. It took an engine to get that high, what in the
world makes you think you can make a 230 plus turn with a 50 to end it with
a tailwind. It's a dead man's turn, go straight ahead and bend the
airplane, it can be replaced..........you can't!! If you have not taken
commercial training, please do so, it truly teaches you to fly the airplane
on the low end of it's envelope.
Dana Overall
Richmond, KY
RV-7 slider/fuselage
http://rvflying.tripod.com
do not archive
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Don't Turn Back |
--> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
Dana Overall wrote:
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" <bo124rs@hotmail.com>
<snip>
> In addition to the loss of lift by turning into a tailwind,
<snip>
Uh, oh......who's gonna take this one? ;-)
Sam Buchanan
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Don't Turn Back |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
Sam Buchanan wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
>
>
> Dana Overall wrote:
>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" <bo124rs@hotmail.com>
>
> <snip>
>
>>In addition to the loss of lift by turning into a tailwind,
>
> <snip>
>
> Uh, oh......who's gonna take this one? ;-)
>
> Sam Buchanan
>
>
I was going to ask Dana to expand on it a bit first. :-)
This old horse has been beat so many times there is not
much left of it.
Jerry
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