---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 07/04/03: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:39 AM - Re: my view of accidents/parachutes delete if not interested (MSices) 2. 06:32 AM - Don't Turn Back (Doug Rozendaal) 3. 07:20 AM - Re: Don't Turn Back (Jeff Orear) 4. 07:36 AM - Re: I will not make 35 will try for the other runway... (N67BT@aol.com) 5. 03:19 PM - Fw: Don't Turn Back (Doug Rozendaal) 6. 03:46 PM - RV-7 Kit for sale (John Brick) 7. 07:42 PM - Empennage and wing kit forsale (PASSPAT@aol.com) 8. 08:31 PM - Re: Don't Turn Back (Dana Overall) 9. 08:51 PM - Re: Don't Turn Back (Sam Buchanan) 10. 09:04 PM - Re: Don't Turn Back (Jerry Springer) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:39:52 AM PST US From: "MSices" Subject: RE: RV-List: my view of accidents/parachutes delete if not interested --> RV-List message posted by: "MSices" Not that the list needs yet another view on this, but IMHO a BRS is functionally equivalent in terms of safety to having the second engine on a twin. Most people feel comfortable flying twins at night, in IMC, over water or mountains (i.e.. places with no glide to land). But the fact is that twins have a much lower safety record than singles. Dick Collins wrote an article were he stated he thinks this is because of overconfidence of the pilots who think that twins are bullet-proof and can fly into anything (weather or otherwise). But others feel that it is due to the fact that you have twice the chance of an engine failure in a twin, and if an engine goes, many pilots do not have the recency of training to handle the emergency. My RV8 is IFR equipped and I would like to be able to fly in the clouds, but I always worry about an engine-out over poor terrain or in IMC. The pilot of a Cirrus with a BRS system has the safety statistics of a single to feel good about as well as the fact that under the two circumstances you mention (engine failure over poor terrain or in IMC) there is a possible safety net. My understanding is that on the Cirrus the BRS has been tested and works. Apparently, it has even been deployed once by a purchaser/owner in an emergency with the desired effect (pilot and passengers lived although plane destroyed). If BRS and Vans were to work together and develop one for the RV series, I would buy it. But, I don't even think BRS will sell you one for an RV because they know it will not work without some major engineering. Michael Sices RV8 - Painting -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tedd McHenry Subject: RE: RV-List: my view of accidents/parachutes delete if not interested It sounds like the BRS ought to be used the same way an ejection seat is used: only when you will almost certainly die if you don't use it. There are very few scenarios in an RV where that would be the case. Total engine failure in IMC with no chance of a glide to VMC or a suitable airfield would be one. Total engine failure over terrain that is thoroughly unsuitable for a forced landing would be another. For most RVers, those are pretty low-probability events, although if you fly a lot of hard IFR in your RV it might be worth considering (as would a more suitable airplane). Tedd McHenry Surrey, BC --- ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:16 AM PST US From: "Doug Rozendaal" Subject: RV-List: Don't Turn Back --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" All, Almost annually we have this discussion after an accident like this. I am alive today because I was, barely, able to overcome the urge to turn back after an engine failure. Several years ago I posted that story on a web page and here it is. http://www.petroblend.com/dougr/dnt-turn.htm Anyone who takes a BFR with me they will have an engine failure after take off at a altitude high enough to make them think they might be able turn back. If they try, it will be a looooong afternoon. Please read this story! Please argue with me all you want, and PLEASE, when the fire goes out, lower the nose and land somewhere ahead of the wing. As the defender of Don't Turn Back, I remain..... Tailwinds, Doug Rozendaal P.S. For those who wish to say they can do it, that is not my arguement. I know it can be done, in some airplanes, at some airports in some conditions, but every year someone gets killed trying it. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:20:28 AM PST US From: "Jeff Orear" Subject: Re: RV-List: Don't Turn Back --> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Orear" Doug: Great post and story. What I get out of it as a summarization is first, fly the plane. Second, keep "skin, tin, ticket" constantly in your mind. And last, don't do nuth'n stupid. Fly safe out there guys. Regards, Jeff Orear RV6A fuselage (waiting for finish kit....engine on the way!!) Peshtigo, WI ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Rozendaal" Subject: RV-List: Don't Turn Back > --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" > > All, > > Almost annually we have this discussion after an accident like this. I am > alive today because I was, barely, able to overcome the urge to turn back > after an engine failure. Several years ago I posted that story on a web > page and here it is. > > http://www.petroblend.com/dougr/dnt-turn.htm > > Anyone who takes a BFR with me they will have an engine failure after take > off at a altitude high enough to make them think they might be able turn > back. If they try, it will be a looooong afternoon. > > Please read this story! Please argue with me all you want, and PLEASE, > when the fire goes out, lower the nose and land somewhere ahead of the wing. > > As the defender of Don't Turn Back, I remain..... > > Tailwinds, > Doug Rozendaal > > P.S. For those who wish to say they can do it, that is not my arguement. I > know it can be done, in some airplanes, at some airports in some conditions, > but every year someone gets killed trying it. > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:36:53 AM PST US From: N67BT@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: I will not make 35 will try for the other runway... --> RV-List message posted by: N67BT@aol.com In a message dated 7/3/2003 11:08:17 PM Mountain Standard Time, kempthornes@earthlink.net writes: > Ah well, at least the engine only cost about $25000 - call your lawyer, > urgent! Like NOW. > Try $47,500.00 retail or $32,250.00 from Van's. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:19:43 PM PST US From: "Doug Rozendaal" Subject: Fw: RV-List: Don't Turn Back --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" Our resident real test pilot sent me this. I never claimed to be an aeronautical engineer, and as you can see I am not. I will fix the article. Tailwinds, Doug Rozendaal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Horton" Subject: Re: RV-List: Don't Turn Back > Doug, > > Nice article - thanks for posting it. > > One small math glitch in your landing speed discussion - 65 kt vs 45 > kt is a 44% speed increase, leading to 2.1 times the kinetic energy. > Your basic point is still valid, but you might as well sort out the > numbers, as wrong numbers make it easier for people to discount your > point. > > Fly safe, > > Kevin ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:46:44 PM PST US From: "John Brick" Subject: RV-List: RV-7 Kit for sale --> RV-List message posted by: "John Brick" Posted for Frank Lanier John, I was wondering if you would post my RV-7 wing and tail kit for sale to the chapter. Trying to work on the plane while having two baby girls is just too much ... I'm not getting anything done on it and at the same time I'm not flying, so I've begrudgingly made the decision to sell and just buy a flying plane. The details of the kit are below: Right spars completed ... ready to start adding ribs Left wing is just about ready for skinning Left fuel tank completed with no leaks AOA kit "A" with ports installed Whelen position/strobe for the left wing Gretz pitot mount (chrome)... needs to be fitted and installed Duckworks 55watt landing lights for each wing (left one installed) Now, on the tail, I completed one tail kit and while I found my work acceptable by my standards (I've seen much worse flying) I really thought I could do better if I had another chance, so I bought a new tail kit which is still unopened in the box. Tools ... I'm a tool freak, so I am very well tooled on this project including a pneumatic squeezer and quite a few yokes. I'm asking $6500 for the wing and tail, $8000 with all the tools to go with it. Interested parties can either email me at frank@lanieronline.net or give me a call at 425-432-1703. BTW - Once this sales, do you know anyone that's got a good deal on a plane? I'm interested in either a citiabria (7kcab) or maybe a sundowner. Thanks, Frank Lanier Maple Valley, WA ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:42:13 PM PST US From: PASSPAT@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Empennage and wing kit forsale --> RV-List message posted by: PASSPAT@aol.com To Anyone interested I have a RV-8 / 8-A wing and emp kits completly finished Tanks included except for the fiberglass parts . Price for the lot $7500.00 . all interrested please reply off the list. Pat Patterson DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:31:26 PM PST US From: "Dana Overall" Subject: Re: RV-List: Don't Turn Back --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" I don't like to respond to these threads but as Doug so pointedly illustrated, there is a reason these turns are called "dead man turns". In addition to the loss of lift by turning into a tailwind, as bank angle is increased (as in pucker factor) to 60 degrees, the G load is doubled on the wings thereby increasing the stall speed dramatically. The lost of lift passing through the 90 degree turn through a headwind and one is looking directly at the ground as a result of low wing wingtip stall thereby giving the soon to be non pilot a clear view of the world upside down with the hard stuff rapidly approaching. It took an engine to get that high, what in the world makes you think you can make a 230 plus turn with a 50 to end it with a tailwind. It's a dead man's turn, go straight ahead and bend the airplane, it can be replaced..........you can't!! If you have not taken commercial training, please do so, it truly teaches you to fly the airplane on the low end of it's envelope. Dana Overall Richmond, KY RV-7 slider/fuselage http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:51:57 PM PST US From: Sam Buchanan Subject: Re: RV-List: Don't Turn Back --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan Dana Overall wrote: > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" > In addition to the loss of lift by turning into a tailwind, Uh, oh......who's gonna take this one? ;-) Sam Buchanan ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:04:47 PM PST US From: Jerry Springer Subject: Re: RV-List: Don't Turn Back --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer Sam Buchanan wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan > > > Dana Overall wrote: > >>--> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" > > > >>In addition to the loss of lift by turning into a tailwind, > > > > Uh, oh......who's gonna take this one? ;-) > > Sam Buchanan > > I was going to ask Dana to expand on it a bit first. :-) This old horse has been beat so many times there is not much left of it. Jerry