---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 07/05/03: 36 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:19 AM - Re: Don't Turn Back (Kevin Horton) 2. 05:11 AM - Off list (Wheeler North) 3. 05:17 AM - Re: Don't Turn Back (Dana Overall) 4. 05:35 AM - Re: Don't Turn Back (Dana Overall) 5. 05:40 AM - 7 fuselage questions. (Dana Overall) 6. 05:45 AM - Re: Don't Turn Back (Doug Rozendaal) 7. 05:50 AM - Re: my view of accidents/parachutes (Nels Hanson) 8. 05:57 AM - Re: my view of accidents/parachutes (Bruce Gray) 9. 06:00 AM - Re: my view of accidents/parachutes (Michael D. Crowe) 10. 06:04 AM - Re: my view of accidents/parachutes/IMHO (Nels Hanson) 11. 06:05 AM - Re: my view of accidents/parachutes--IMHO (I've got it!) (Nels Hanson) 12. 06:14 AM - Re: my view of accidents/parachutes--IMHO (I've got it!) (Nels Hanson) 13. 08:18 AM - Re: Don't Turn Back (Camille Patch) 14. 08:35 AM - Re: RV7A TIP UP (Elsa & Henry) 15. 08:52 AM - Re: Don't Turn Back (Kevin Horton) 16. 09:19 AM - Re: low power mystery on RV7A?? (glenn williams) 17. 09:56 AM - Re: 7 fuselage questions. (Dan Checkoway) 18. 10:00 AM - Re: Seats (bert murillo) 19. 10:02 AM - Re: Seats (bert murillo) 20. 10:13 AM - tow bar (bert murillo) 21. 10:20 AM - Failure messages... (bert murillo) 22. 10:54 AM - Formation Clinic at POU (Stuart B McCurdy) 23. 11:32 AM - Re: Failure messages... (kempthornes) 24. 11:59 AM - Re: my view of accidents/parachutes--IMHO (I've got it!) (John Starn) 25. 12:08 PM - Lightspeed problem... (Ken Balch) 26. 12:24 PM - [ Gary Zilik ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares) 27. 01:14 PM - Re: Don't Turn Back (Dana Overall) 28. 01:33 PM - 6/7/9 cowling (Im7shannon@aol.com) 29. 01:42 PM - Re: Don't Turn Back (mstewart@qa.butler.com) 30. 01:53 PM - Re: Lightspeed problem... (mstewart@qa.butler.com) 31. 02:10 PM - Navaid Servo Installation (Jack Lockamy) 32. 02:18 PM - Re: 7 fuselage questions. (Geoff Evans) 33. 03:37 PM - Re: Re: 7 fuselage questions. (Dan Checkoway) 34. 04:26 PM - Another RV-6A Flys (Oldsfolks@aol.com) 35. 05:27 PM - Re: 6/7/9 cowling (aronsond) 36. 05:58 PM - Interior painting - was -- 7 fuselage questions. (Gil Alexander) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:19:46 AM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: Don't Turn Back --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton >--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer > >Sam Buchanan wrote: >> --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan >> >> >> Dana Overall wrote: >> >>>--> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" >> >> >> >>>In addition to the loss of lift by turning into a tailwind, >> >> >> >> Uh, oh......who's gonna take this one? ;-) >> >> Sam Buchanan >> >> > >I was going to ask Dana to expand on it a bit first. :-) > >This old horse has been beat so many times there is not >much left of it. > >Jerry > There has been so much written on the downwind turn myth that if people still believe in it there seems to be no hope of changing their opinion. I'd like to take one of these guys up above an overcast layer on a day with a strong wind at altitude and do some low speed turns. If we had 40 kt of wind at altitude, we should lose 80 kts during the turn from upwind to downwind, right :) And if you believe that, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you. http://www.flyingmag.com/article.asp?section_id=12&article_id=27 http://www.djaerotech.com/dj_askjd/dj_questions/downwind.html http://www.beegroup.com/eaachapter7/newsletters/Mar01.PDF (page 5) -- Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/ ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:11:13 AM PST US From: Wheeler North Subject: RV-List: Off list --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North Well, I'm off list for a while, like you all really care, but I just wanted to rub it in that I'm leaving for EAANW Arlington Flyin and Airshow. Hope to see you all there. W do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:17:41 AM PST US From: "Dana Overall" Subject: Re: RV-List: Don't Turn Back --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" > > > In addition to the loss of lift by turning into a tailwind, > > >Uh, oh......who's gonna take this one? ;-) > >Sam Buchanan > Poor assembly of individual words in an attempt to form sentence structure.....after a couple of July 4th. beverages:-) No use beating this dead horse as I believe the carcass has returned to basic carbon.......... For goodness sakes though, bend the airplane, don't mangle yourself. Dana Overall Richmond, KY RV-7 slider/fuselage http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:35:06 AM PST US From: "Dana Overall" Subject: Re: RV-List: Don't Turn Back --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" >I'd like to take one of these guys up above an overcast layer on a >day with a strong wind at altitude and do some low speed turns. If >we had 40 kt of wind at altitude, we should lose 80 kts during the >turn from upwind to downwind, right :) And if you believe that, I've >got a bridge I'd like to sell you. >Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Well, that was a little holier than thou statement. I guess a 60 degree bank turn back to the runway with prevailing winds not flowing over the wings will not increase the stall speed of the airplane at all......hum......If you believe it won't, I don't want to be above the cloud layer with you. Please read the entire text, not just one item. I guess all my commercial, IFR, high performance and complex training just got upped by a bridge seller. I could handle Sam and Jerry's light hearted comments, but this one I took a little personnally. I'm hoping this was just one of those "it didn't come across like I wanted it too" forum things. End of the subject for me, time to move on. I'll stick to my guns, bend the airplane, don't mangle yourself. Dana Overall Richmond, KY RV-7 slider/fuselage http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:40:28 AM PST US From: "Dana Overall" Subject: RV-List: 7 fuselage questions. --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" All you 7 or 9 guys out there, before I go to joining fuselage sub assemblies together I'd like your input on little things that would have made your life easier had you done them, ie. drilling wiring holes, etc. Just thinking a little hindsight will be useful here. And you guys thought it was going to be 7 questions............. Thanks, Dana Overall Richmond, KY RV-7 slider/fuselage http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:45:02 AM PST US From: "Doug Rozendaal" Subject: Re: RV-List: Don't Turn Back --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" I too agree that there are no physics that support the downwind turn, but there are visual perceptions that have kept this old dog from dying for 100 years this year. The pilot sees what is happening versus the ground and percieves what is happening aerodynamically, and responds to it. Let's suppose the fire goes out after takeoff from a fairly short runway and the pilot attempts a turn back into a brisk wind. The pilot imeadiately becomes concerned about running off the far end, tightens up the turn and the family makes funeral arrangements. Even though there is no such thing as a downwind turn, (and there isn't) it is still another good reason not to turn back. Tailwinds Doug Rozendaal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Horton" Subject: Re: RV-List: Don't Turn Back > --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton > > >--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer > > > >Sam Buchanan wrote: > >> --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan > >> > >> > >> Dana Overall wrote: > >> > >>>--> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" > >> > >> > >> > >>>In addition to the loss of lift by turning into a tailwind, > >> > >> > >> > >> Uh, oh......who's gonna take this one? ;-) > >> > >> Sam Buchanan > >> > >> > > > >I was going to ask Dana to expand on it a bit first. :-) > > > >This old horse has been beat so many times there is not > >much left of it. > > > >Jerry > > > > There has been so much written on the downwind turn myth that if > people still believe in it there seems to be no hope of changing > their opinion. > > I'd like to take one of these guys up above an overcast layer on a > day with a strong wind at altitude and do some low speed turns. If > we had 40 kt of wind at altitude, we should lose 80 kts during the > turn from upwind to downwind, right :) And if you believe that, I've > got a bridge I'd like to sell you. > > http://www.flyingmag.com/article.asp?section_id=12&article_id=27 > http://www.djaerotech.com/dj_askjd/dj_questions/downwind.html > http://www.beegroup.com/eaachapter7/newsletters/Mar01.PDF (page 5) > -- > Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) > Ottawa, Canada > http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/ > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:50:53 AM PST US From: Nels Hanson Subject: RE: RV-List: my view of accidents/parachutes --> RV-List message posted by: Nels Hanson I can't stand it any longer,WHAT THE HECK DOES IMHO STAND FOR?? I'm sure I will be embarrassed,but at least it will be first time today. See you at OSH! --- KostaLewis wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "KostaLewis" > > > An easier installation and one that has been tried > before and works > quite well is the personal BRS. A parachute. I think > the BRS systems may > be better for a 4 place aircraft that you wouldn't > want four people > trying to egress with packs in place. I can't > imagine a situation that a > BRS system would be better than a parachute in an > RV, if you were > inclined to do something such as that to "enhance" > personal safety. As > previously stated, situations that a BRS would be > effective in would be > far and few between. Which means you would be > carrying around 60 pounds > of dead weight that would be expensive to replace > every 5 years (isn't > that the recommendation?). Which would leave about > 10-20 pounds for > baggage. Now that would be a useful airplane. > > Personal safety can be enhanced by staying current > (flying a lot), > training, and staying out of situations that would > necessitate blowing a > parachute out of your baggage compartment (don't > mess with Mother > Nature). You can only go so far before there is a > diminishing return on > what you do to protect yourself. A tail-heavy RV > with a false sense of > security hanging out in the baggage compartment may > not be the best > idea. Sounds good to the lay public/uninformed but > may not be what it is > idealized to be. No offense to the Cirrus folks; > they have a good > product going. > > IMHO > > Michael > > > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > latest messages. > List members. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm > Digests:http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:57:09 AM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: RV-List: my view of accidents/parachutes --> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" IMHO stands for "In My Humble Opinion". Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Nels Hanson Subject: RE: RV-List: my view of accidents/parachutes --> RV-List message posted by: Nels Hanson I can't stand it any longer,WHAT THE HECK DOES IMHO STAND FOR?? I'm sure I will be embarrassed,but at least it will be first time today. See you at OSH! ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:00:35 AM PST US From: "Michael D. Crowe" Subject: RE: RV-List: my view of accidents/parachutes --> RV-List message posted by: "Michael D. Crowe" IMHO "In My Humble Opinion" I can't stand it any longer,WHAT THE HECK DOES IMHO STAND FOR?? I'm sure I will be embarrassed,but at least it will be first time today. See you at OSH! do not archive ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:04:41 AM PST US From: Nels Hanson Subject: RE: RV-List: my view of accidents/parachutes/IMHO --> RV-List message posted by: Nels Hanson --- Bruce Gray wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" > > > IMHO stands for "In My Humble Opinion". > > Bruce > www.glasair.org > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On > Behalf Of Nels Hanson > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV-List: my view of > accidents/parachutes > > > --> RV-List message posted by: Nels Hanson > > > I can't stand it any longer,WHAT THE HECK DOES IMHO > STAND FOR?? I'm sure I will be embarrassed,but at > least it will be first time today. See you at OSH! > > > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > latest messages. > List members. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm > Digests:http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:05:29 AM PST US From: Nels Hanson Subject: RE: RV-List: my view of accidents/parachutes--IMHO (I've got it!) --> RV-List message posted by: Nels Hanson --- "Michael D. Crowe" wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Michael D. Crowe" > > > IMHO "In My Humble Opinion" > > I can't stand it any longer,WHAT THE HECK DOES IMHO > STAND FOR?? I'm sure I will be embarrassed,but at > least it will be first time today. See you at OSH! > do not archive > > > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > latest messages. > List members. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm > Digests:http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:14:13 AM PST US From: Nels Hanson Subject: RE: RV-List: my view of accidents/parachutes--IMHO (I've got it!) --> RV-List message posted by: Nels Hanson Thanks to all for responding,now I feel like an idiot for asking. I should have asked my kids. Oh,by the way for you rivet pounders-coming back from a trip yesterday,I was at 5,500 ft. in my RV-6,just on top of some cumulous,under flight following and discussing an upcoming cookout with the controller,when I told him to expect some erratic flight paths from me for about 10 minutes as I played in the canyons in the sky. What an experience!! Flying through "keyholes" in the clouds and climbing over "mountains" and sliding down the other side and cutting the edges of the clouds with part of a wing,while planning my next "attack" on the cloud 1,500 ft. ahead and 300 ft. higher. Keep pounding those dang rivets.(Oh,before someone asks-I am IFR rated and so is my RV-6!)The controller knew what I was doing because I asked and he said OK. They are people too!! After I started flying straight again,he asked me "how was it?". I told him it was exhilerating,and he told me he was building a -7 and was envious. Kind of a nice thing to remember the Fourth of July 2003 by! --- "Michael D. Crowe" wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Michael D. Crowe" > > > IMHO "In My Humble Opinion" > > I can't stand it any longer,WHAT THE HECK DOES IMHO > STAND FOR?? I'm sure I will be embarrassed,but at > least it will be first time today. See you at OSH! > do not archive > > > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > latest messages. > List members. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm > Digests:http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:18:48 AM PST US From: "Camille Patch" Subject: Re: RV-List: Don't Turn Back --> RV-List message posted by: "Camille Patch" The only way you can factor in the wind is in ground distance and ground speed. Remember, you are flying in a pocket of air, the airplane doesn't care what the earth is doing beneath it until you get to the ground. There is no loss of lift in a turn, downwind or otherwise unless there is wind shear. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dana Overall" Subject: Re: RV-List: Don't Turn Back > --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" > > I don't like to respond to these threads but as Doug so pointedly > illustrated, there is a reason these turns are called "dead man turns". > In addition to the loss of lift by turning into a tailwind, as bank angle is > increased (as in pucker factor) to 60 degrees, the G load is doubled on the > wings thereby increasing the stall speed dramatically. The lost of lift > passing through the 90 degree turn through a headwind and one is looking > directly at the ground as a result of low wing wingtip stall thereby giving > the soon to be non pilot a clear view of the world upside down with the hard > stuff rapidly approaching. It took an engine to get that high, what in the > world makes you think you can make a 230 plus turn with a 50 to end it with > a tailwind. It's a dead man's turn, go straight ahead and bend the > airplane, it can be replaced..........you can't!! If you have not taken > commercial training, please do so, it truly teaches you to fly the airplane > on the low end of it's envelope. > > > Dana Overall > Richmond, KY > RV-7 slider/fuselage > http://rvflying.tripod.com > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:35:50 AM PST US From: "Elsa & Henry" Subject: Re: RV-List: RV7A TIP UP --> RV-List message posted by: "Elsa & Henry" You have the same problem on the -7 as I had on the -6A!--? When I fitted the nose skin, (my 1994 vintage manual calls it the "Forward top fuselage skin"), I found the fitting instructions there-in a bunch of nonsense! It said that the design of the instrument sub-panel (F-668 on the -6) was such, to be perpendicular to the skin therefore the aft edge should need no trimming. Well for sure, that if the firewall was the same width as the sub-panel, that would be a true statement, but it's not! As the firewall is narrower than the F-668 the skin becomes conical in shape and the base of all cones are not straight! End of basic geometry 101. So I fitted it per plans and clecoed it in place and then when I built the canopy, I trimmed it to match the nose skin. The problem was that I did not rivet the nose skin until all wiring and work done below it was complete. My situation was compounded by the fact you can not have clecoes where they would interfere with opening and closing of the canopy so my problem outlined below was not detected earlier because the nose skin was not down tight to the F-668 bulkhead in that critical area After riveting down the nose-skin and trying the canopy fit, I found myself locked-in,--couldn't open the canopy because it was binding against the nose skin (trimmed too tight). Luckily I was able to climb out through the window (not installed yet, a good thing too and I recommend any builder not to install it until they have checked out their canopy for final fit) Anyway I was able to get it open and trim it OK.There is another contributor to binding if you have snug fit between the skins: The pivot line of the J-Hook hinges is below the skin line, therefore there is a slight forward motion as you open the canopy which will exacerbate the binding until clear. Cheers!-----Henry Hoer ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:52 AM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: Don't Turn Back --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton >--> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" > > >>I'd like to take one of these guys up above an overcast layer on a >>day with a strong wind at altitude and do some low speed turns. If >>we had 40 kt of wind at altitude, we should lose 80 kts during the >>turn from upwind to downwind, right :) And if you believe that, I've >>got a bridge I'd like to sell you. > >>Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) > > >Well, that was a little holier than thou statement. I guess a 60 degree >bank turn back to the runway with prevailing winds not flowing over the >wings will not increase the stall speed of the airplane at >all......hum......If you believe it won't, I don't want to be above the >cloud layer with you. Please read the entire text, not just one item. > >I guess all my commercial, IFR, high performance and complex training just >got upped by a bridge seller. > >I could handle Sam and Jerry's light hearted comments, but this one I took a >little personnally. I'm hoping this was just one of those "it didn't come >across like I wanted it too" forum things. End of the subject for me, time >to move on. > >I'll stick to my guns, bend the airplane, don't mangle yourself. > >Dana Overall Dana, Sorry if this came across the wrong way. It was meant to be a bit of humour, not a personal attack. I guess I've gotten a bit tired of the downwind turn myth over the years. Sure, if you are turning, the stall speed will be increased because you have more than 1g on the aircraft. That will happen exactly the same whether you are turning upwind or downwind, or in no wind at all. And I agree that it is one of the many reasons why a turn back after an engine failure may be a fatal mistake. Your original post seems to indicate that you believe that one of the dangers of turning back to the runway after an engine failure is that there will be a loss of lift when turning downwind. If you were not trying to say that, then please accept my apology for misunderstanding your post. If you were trying to say that there is a loss of lift when turning downwind, then I suggest you go flying some day when the winds are strong at altitude. Climb high enough to get up where there is no turbulence. Do some turns at a low speed. If there was a loss of lift when turning downwind, you should see the airspeed decrease, and the aircraft want to descend. When you turn upwind, the airspeed should increase, and the aircraft would want to climb. I'm betting that you will observe that the airspeed and altitude will be fairly constant during this manoeuvre, assuming a reasonably competent pilot. Do you accept that this will be true, or do you need to actually try the experiment? I certainly agree with you that it is a very bad and dangerous idea to try to turn back after an engine failure, unless you have a whole bunch of altitude to work with. Truce? Kevin Horton ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:19:46 AM PST US From: glenn williams Subject: Re: RV-List: low power mystery on RV7A?? --> RV-List message posted by: glenn williams Reading your post it appears to me that the engine is making power. Am I reading your post wrong? If the engine is making power and the airspeed is low could it be drag induced? Just asking. Glenn Williams do not archive --- Eustace Bowhay wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Eustace Bowhay" > > > Talked to Bart Lalonde at Aero Sport Power and > since this has been a > problem since installation he says there may be a > possibility that the cam > is out of time. Give him a call at 250 376 1223 and > he would be happy to > help solve the problem. > > Eustace Bowhay Blind Bay, B.C. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Subject: RV-List: low power mystery on RV7A?? > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: Dwpetrus@aol.com > > > > My friends RV7A is suffering from extreme low > power. His airplane is > 35mph > > slower than my RV8A and it climbs like a loaded > Skyhawk. At 2500 rpm and > 25 > > inches man. pres. he is getting about 150mph at > 5000 ft. He also has to > lean > > the mixture about half way out to keep it running > smooth on the ground and > at > > low altitudes. He has a Superior EXP 360 with > fuel injection (180hp) and > lasar > > ignition and a new 3 blade MT prop from Van's. We > have checked the RPM at > all > > ranges with a hand held tach and have verified > that his MP reads the same > as > > mine with the engines off on the ground. He has > already swapped fuel > injector > > servos twice and talked with the people at > American in Dallas where he > bought > > the engine numerous times. They promised to put > him in touch with an > engine > > guru soon, but I would welcome any suggestions > from the group. I don't > > understand how he could be getting that type of > power indications and not > making the > > power? > > > > Wayne Petrus > > RV8A > > > > > > > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > latest messages. > List members. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm > Digests:http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > ===== Glenn Williams 8A A&P N81GW __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:56:55 AM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: 7 fuselage questions. --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" Drill for every snap bushing option that Van's suggests on the plan (look carefully), and then run at least one length of conduit under the floors between the seat skin area and F-706. Buy a bunch of SB625-8 snap bushings. Toss the 625-7s that Van's gives you. You get an extra 16th for more wire run space with the same hole. Buy the firewall forward kit DRAWINGS before assembling your firewall (including the Odyssey PC-680 install kit, or at least its drawing). You will end up drilling out a lot of rivets otherwise, and also end up having to machine countersink as opposed to dimple. This is for stuff like rivets holding reinforcement plates for contactors and any other doodads you end up mounting on your firewall. Proseal the firewall flange/side skin overlap area when you go to assemble the fuselage for riveting. Don't use AKZO for a primer on the cabin area...use something that can take a top coat, if you use any primer at all. Don't rivet the seat skin attach nutplates on the outboard-most seat ribs until after the side skins are riveted on. Otherwise you have a bucking interference issue. When joining the center fuselage with the aft fuselage, leave the baggage skins off. Easier to reach in to work the "sandwich" area that way. There's more, but that's all I can think of off the top of my head...if you're bored you can peruse the site (http://www.rvproject.com). )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dana Overall" Subject: RV-List: 7 fuselage questions. > --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" > > All you 7 or 9 guys out there, before I go to joining fuselage sub > assemblies together I'd like your input on little things that would have > made your life easier had you done them, ie. drilling wiring holes, etc. > Just thinking a little hindsight will be useful here. > > And you guys thought it was going to be 7 questions............. > > Thanks, > > > Dana Overall > Richmond, KY > RV-7 slider/fuselage > http://rvflying.tripod.com > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:00:47 AM PST US From: " bert murillo" Subject: Re: RV-List: Seats --> RV-List message posted by: " bert murillo" That is what I did, except I did not put the Http:// I do not know if that is absolutely necessary... Thanks Bert Do Not Archive Sign up for Internet Service under $10 dollars a month, at http://isp.BlueLight.com ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:53 AM PST US From: " bert murillo" Subject: Re: RV-List: Seats --> RV-List message posted by: " bert murillo" John: What was your message, I received nothing Bert Do Not archive Sign up for Internet Service under $10 dollars a month, at http://isp.BlueLight.com ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:13:53 AM PST US From: " bert murillo" Subject: RV-List: tow bar --> RV-List message posted by: " bert murillo" Hi: I place this before but for some reason, did not go thru. Which is the best tow bar to use on the Rv6a, I believed, some one mention that there are two tow bars we can use.. Suggestions, as to the least work, to modify them to fit our rv... Thanks for the comments.. Bert Do NOt archive Sign up for Internet Service under $10 dollars a month, at http://isp.BlueLight.com ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:20:41 AM PST US From: " bert murillo" Subject: RV-List: Failure messages... --> RV-List message posted by: " bert murillo" Hi: Recently I started getting, Failure messages, when I post a message, it says something like, server not found,, or something in that line.. Never had this trouble, before, after years of posting to the list... The respond I get on the screen, is your messages has been sucessfully..... But then later I receive the failure message on the mail... Any of you experts on P>C> mysteries,,have some answers? Thanks Bert rv6a Dpo Not archive Sign up for Internet Service under $10 dollars a month, at http://isp.BlueLight.com ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:54:37 AM PST US From: Stuart B McCurdy Subject: RV-List: Formation Clinic at POU --> RV-List message posted by: Stuart B McCurdy Formation Listers, I have been asked by the Old Rhinebeck group to do some evaluations for formation cards. Also, Scott Jordan and others have asked for evaluations in the New York/New England area. So, since I will be there we thought we would also conduct a formation clinic for any who would like to participate. Mike Stewart from Team RV and possibly Joe Czachorowski from Mid Atlantic Wg will be there to assist. The formation clinic will be conducted 12-13 July at Poughkeepsie (POU) NY starting at 0800. It will start with instructional briefings and then practice flights. Scott Jordan will play host. If you would like to participate, contact Scott for reservations and CC me so we know how many to anticipate. There will be a nominal charge for expenses. Stu McCurdy ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:32:59 AM PST US From: kempthornes Subject: Re: RV-List: Failure messages... --> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes Hi Bert, This message means that the server was not found. Big help, huh? Somewhere in the world a server (computer) was not found. Many reasons possible most likely the computer was not on line. I suspect older machines, increasing operating costs, technicians spread to thin etc. Reminds me of "Gee, Doctor, I've never had to have glasses to read before". :-) Just resend the message. do not archive hal At 05:19 PM 7/5/2003 +0000, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: " bert murillo" > >Hi: > >Recently I started getting, Failure messages, when >I post a message, it says something like, server >not found,, or something in that line.. > > > Never had this trouble, before, after years of >posting to the list... ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:59:07 AM PST US From: "John Starn" Subject: Re: RV-List: my view of accidents/parachutes--IMHO (I've got it!) --> RV-List message posted by: "John Starn" OR: IMNSHO (In My Not So Humble Opinion), the one I use most times. Do Not Archive. KABONG 8*) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nels Hanson" Subject: RE: RV-List: my view of accidents/parachutes--IMHO (I've got it!) > > I can't stand it any longer,WHAT THE HECK DOES IMHO > > STAND FOR?? I'm sure I will be embarrassed,but at ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:08:33 PM PST US From: Ken Balch Subject: RV-List: Lightspeed problem... --> RV-List message posted by: Ken Balch Well, it seems as though my Lightspeed electronic ignition is having problems. I have one Lightspeed (in place of my right magneto) and one Slick magneto. The other day, on the last leg of my flight back from Oregon, I noticed that my oil temp was down, CHT was down, EGT was up & fuel flow was up. I tried switching off the Lightspeed and nothing changed. I then switched off the magneto and the engine almost died before I could flip the switch back up. I continued on to an uneventful landing at my home field (the best landing of the trip!). When I pulled the cowling to check things out, I discovered that all fwf connections for the Lightspeed hardware were intact. Also, the fuse in the circuit was good. So... What could the problem be? Does the Lightspeed electronic ignition have any total failure modes that would account for my situation? I'll call Lightspeed on Monday, but any info before then would be of interest... Regards, Ken Balch RV-8 N118KB ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:24:22 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: [ Gary Zilik ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! From: Email List Photo Shares --> RV-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares A new Email List Photo Share is available: Poster: Gary Zilik Subject: CH Products Stick Grip http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/zilik@direcpc.com.07.05.2003/index.html o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a Photo Share If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures@matronics.com ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:14:47 PM PST US From: "Dana Overall" Subject: Re: RV-List: Don't Turn Back --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" Not a problem on this end Keven. Forums can be a nasty format for words to come across and be taken wrong. I've certainly done enough flying to understand the concepts involved. The jest of my post was high angle of attack, low airspeed, probably heavy with fuel and cranking it around to make the runway thereby loading up the wings and suddenly seeing the hard stuff out the top of the canopy. Dana Overall Richmond, KY RV-7 slider/fuselage http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 01:33:48 PM PST US From: Im7shannon@aol.com Subject: RV-List: 6/7/9 cowling --> RV-List message posted by: Im7shannon@aol.com If anyone has a not needed sxs cowling for sale in any condition please contact me off list. Needed for scratch build project. Thanks Kevin Shannon do not archive ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 01:42:06 PM PST US From: mstewart@qa.butler.com Subject: RE: RV-List: Don't Turn Back tests=AWL,BAYES_01,NO_REAL_NAME,ORIGINAL_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=ham version=2.53 --> RV-List message posted by: mstewart@qa.butler.com Dana I took them as light hearted comments. They were playing with you. I'd of taken a crack at you but they beat me to it. Mike Stewart do not archive -----Original Message----- From: Dana Overall Subject: Re: RV-List: Don't Turn Back --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" >I'd like to take one of these guys up above an overcast layer on a >day with a strong wind at altitude and do some low speed turns. If >we had 40 kt of wind at altitude, we should lose 80 kts during the >turn from upwind to downwind, right :) And if you believe that, I've >got a bridge I'd like to sell you. >Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Well, that was a little holier than thou statement. I guess a 60 degree bank turn back to the runway with prevailing winds not flowing over the wings will not increase the stall speed of the airplane at all......hum......If you believe it won't, I don't want to be above the cloud layer with you. Please read the entire text, not just one item. I guess all my commercial, IFR, high performance and complex training just got upped by a bridge seller. I could handle Sam and Jerry's light hearted comments, but this one I took a little personnally. I'm hoping this was just one of those "it didn't come across like I wanted it too" forum things. End of the subject for me, time to move on. I'll stick to my guns, bend the airplane, don't mangle yourself. Dana Overall Richmond, KY RV-7 slider/fuselage http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 01:53:15 PM PST US From: mstewart@qa.butler.com Subject: RE: RV-List: Lightspeed problem... tests=AWL,BAYES_01,NO_REAL_NAME,ORIGINAL_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=ham version=2.53 --> RV-List message posted by: mstewart@qa.butler.com Ken sounds similar to my problem. You can read my problem and solution here: http://www.mstewart.net/michael/rv/flying/elecign/elecign.htm -----Original Message----- From: Ken Balch Subject: RV-List: Lightspeed problem... --> RV-List message posted by: Ken Balch Well, it seems as though my Lightspeed electronic ignition is having problems. I have one Lightspeed (in place of my right magneto) and one Slick magneto. The other day, on the last leg of my flight back from Oregon, I noticed that my oil temp was down, CHT was down, EGT was up & fuel flow was up. I tried switching off the Lightspeed and nothing changed. I then switched off the magneto and the engine almost died before I could flip the switch back up. I continued on to an uneventful landing at my home field (the best landing of the trip!). When I pulled the cowling to check things out, I discovered that all fwf connections for the Lightspeed hardware were intact. Also, the fuse in the circuit was good. So... What could the problem be? Does the Lightspeed electronic ignition have any total failure modes that would account for my situation? I'll call Lightspeed on Monday, but any info before then would be of interest... Regards, Ken Balch RV-8 N118KB ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:10:25 PM PST US From: "Jack Lockamy" Subject: RV-List: Navaid Servo Installation --> RV-List message posted by: "Jack Lockamy" To the List, Trying to decide whether to install my Navaid Autopilot servo in the RT wing aileron bellcrank bay or out on the wingtip as shown at Sam Buchanan's website. Anybody got any photos of their installation into the bellcrank bay in a -7 or -8? Thanks, Jack Lockamy RV-7AQB Camarillo, CA ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 02:18:53 PM PST US From: Geoff Evans Subject: RV-List: Re: 7 fuselage questions. --> RV-List message posted by: Geoff Evans >> Don't use AKZO for a primer on the cabin area...use something that can take a top coat, if you use any primer at all. << Have you had a problem painting over the Akzo? I posted a question about interior primers and paints several months ago, and I specifically asked about Akzo. Several people replied and none of them indicated a problem painting over the Akzo. Some of my interior is primed with Akzo, some with NAPA 7220 self-etch, and a lot with whatever Vans uses on quickbuild kits. I haven't started painting the interior top coat yet, but I plan to do that soon. I sure hope I don't have a problem with the Akzo... -Geoff RV-8 QB fuselage __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 03:37:02 PM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: 7 fuselage questions. --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > Have you had a problem painting over the Akzo? Nope, not specifically...I had just read in the specs on Dexter's site that it's not designed to take a top coat. In my case I sanded it down, re-primed, and then painted. do not archive )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 04:26:10 PM PST US From: Oldsfolks@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Another RV-6A Flys --> RV-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com RV-6A # 24731 , N731RH , had its' final inspection Friday,July 4. First three test flights were flown from Booneville,Arkansas airport on Saturday,July 5 ( 2.2 Hours). Raymond Wells of Charleston,Arkansas is the builder(For 7+ years). Test flights by Bob Olds of Charleston,Arkansas, Rays neighbor and EAA Tech. advisor. The Booneville Airport had an all day playday and Beef Brisket lunch. Chase plane by Mike Wyrick,Booneville Airport commission chairman and up-close and personal video tape by Bill Tucker,airport manager. RV Grins ALL over the place. Bob Olds A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor RV-4 , N1191X , Flying Now Charleston, Arkansas "Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers" ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 05:27:15 PM PST US From: "aronsond" Subject: Re: RV-List: 6/7/9 cowling --> RV-List message posted by: "aronsond" Kevin: Our EAA chapter was donated an untouched RV-6 cowling. It is the type that requires the mating of the intake port with the lower cowling. Make us an offer and I will take it to the board. {If it is what you need} Dave Aronson RV4 N504rv Eaa Chapter 1230 (www.eaa1230.org) ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: RV-List: 6/7/9 cowling > --> RV-List message posted by: Im7shannon@aol.com > > If anyone has a not needed sxs cowling for sale in any condition please > contact me off list. Needed for scratch build project. > Thanks > Kevin Shannon > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 05:58:07 PM PST US From: Gil Alexander Subject: RV-List: Interior painting - was -- 7 fuselage questions. --> RV-List message posted by: Gil Alexander Guys, It is an interior "fluid resistant" primer and is not designed for a topcoat... However, one option recommended by the early users of AKZO -- when it was Dexter and you bought it with a MacDonald Douglas spec. straight from the distributor -- was to rub it down with ScotchBrite and acetone just before painting. The acetone will not dissolve the primer, but it will slightly soften it, and the ScotchBrite will give a little tooth to the surface. They did not use any intermediate paint coat, just put the color straight over the AKZO.... Some of these early RVs where show winners, and no-one has since complained about the paint not bonding. gil in Tucson ... with some very old Dexter primed parts... At 03:35 PM 7/5/2003 -0700, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > > > Have you had a problem painting over the Akzo? > >Nope, not specifically...I had just read in the specs on Dexter's site that >it's not designed to take a top coat. In my case I sanded it down, >re-primed, and then painted. > >do not archive >)_( Dan >RV-7 N714D >http://www.rvproject.com > > RV-6A, #20701 .. fitting out firewall... 77 Tiger N28478 at 57AZ