---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 08/12/03: 55 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:25 AM - Dynon survey (Jeff Point) 2. 03:51 AM - Re: Dynon survey (RV3) 3. 04:53 AM - Re: Dynon survey (Doug Rozendaal) 4. 04:56 AM - Re: Dynon survey (Dana Overall) 5. 05:36 AM - Re: Dynon survey (mstewart@qa.butler.com) 6. 05:59 AM - Re: Re: Option for CS after fitting FP Sensenich (doug) 7. 06:01 AM - Re: Dynon survey (Pat Hatch) 8. 06:14 AM - Re: Dynon survey (RV3) 9. 06:31 AM - Off list - Re: Option for CS after fitting FP Sensinech (doug) 10. 07:03 AM - Re: wheel bearings heads up (Bob Japundza) 11. 07:31 AM - Re: RV vs Lancair (Scott Bilinski) 12. 07:32 AM - Re: Dynon survey (Ken Harrill) 13. 07:46 AM - Re: RV-4 footwells (Tracy Crook) 14. 08:02 AM - Re: Dynon survey (Dana Overall) 15. 09:11 AM - lightspeed crank sensor vs hall sensor (Aircraft Technical Book Company) 16. 09:28 AM - Re: lightspeed crank sensor vs hall sensor (Brian Denk) 17. 09:31 AM - Re: Dynon survey (Terry Watson) 18. 09:37 AM - Re: lightspeed crank sensor vs hall sensor (mstewart@qa.butler.com) 19. 09:38 AM - Re: Dynon survey (Dan Checkoway) 20. 09:50 AM - Re: lightspeed crank sensor vs hall sensor (Dan Checkoway) 21. 09:56 AM - Re: lightspeed crank sensor vs hall sensor (Scott Bilinski) 22. 10:02 AM - Re: lightspeed crank sensor vs hall sensor (Terry Watson) 23. 11:15 AM - Instrument location for 7 & 9 gang (Dana Overall) 24. 11:39 AM - Cylindrical Facet fuel pump (Mitch Faatz) 25. 12:09 PM - Re: Dynon survey (RV3) 26. 12:22 PM - Fw: Remote compass...ferrous connector? (Dan Checkoway) 27. 12:37 PM - Re: Instrument location for 7 & 9 gang (Dan Checkoway) 28. 01:40 PM - Re: Van's Oil Pressure Guage Questions (JDaniel343@aol.com) 29. 01:53 PM - Re: Van's Oil Pressure Guage Questions (Trampas) 30. 02:24 PM - Re: Dynon survey (N223RV@aol.com) 31. 02:46 PM - Re: Cylindrical Facet fuel pump (Jim Sears) 32. 02:55 PM - Re: Cylindrical Facet fuel pump (Mitch Faatz) 33. 03:06 PM - Re: Instrument location for 7 & 9 gang (Dana Overall) 34. 03:33 PM - Dynon Discussion (Wheeler North) 35. 03:42 PM - New Online Store (Stein Bruch) 36. 04:07 PM - EAA FORUM Fulton NY, NOW RV9 Flight Training, 9th RV Forum NY Sept. 12-13-14 (RV6160hp@aol.com) 37. 04:19 PM - VULTURES formation group, Mid Atlantic VAF wing attending Fulton NY 9th RV forum (RV6160hp@aol.com) 38. 04:42 PM - Re: Fw: Remote compass...ferrous connector? (Bill Dube) 39. 04:58 PM - Re: Re: Option for CS after fitting FP Sensenich (Eustace Bowhay) 40. 05:00 PM - Wing to fuse fairings (Tim Bryan) 41. 05:19 PM - EAA B17 At DXR (Tony Castellano) 42. 05:20 PM - Re: EAA FORUM Fulton NY, NOW RV9 Flight Training, 9th RV Forum NY Sept. 12-13-14 (Cy Galley) 43. 05:25 PM - Re: Dynon Discussion (Ken Simmons) 44. 05:47 PM - Re: Dynon Discussion (Bob Hassel) 45. 06:09 PM - Re: EZ Pilot Digital Autopilot (Thomas Velvick) 46. 06:10 PM - Re: Dynon Discussion (Ken Simmons) 47. 06:18 PM - Fw: rv-6 forced landing (Dan Checkoway) 48. 07:01 PM - Re: Dynon Discussion (Kevin Horton) 49. 07:29 PM - Re: Dynon Discussion (Terry Watson) 50. 07:43 PM - efis efis, bla bla bla (Amit Dagan) 51. 08:27 PM - Re: Dynon Discussion (DEREK REED) 52. 09:07 PM - Re: Dynon Discussion (Ken Simmons) 53. 09:22 PM - Re: Dynon Survey (Robin Wessel) 54. 09:28 PM - Re: efis efis, bla bla bla (James E. Clark) 55. 11:27 PM - Wind shear (Wheeler North) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:25:44 AM PST US From: Jeff Point Subject: RV-List: Dynon survey --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point With all the talk about the Dynon EFIS over the last couple of days, I have decided to email the company and let them know about our feelings regarding an electric HSI. Before I do so, I would like a show of hands- how many listers would be interested in an electronic HSI offering from them? The device I have in mind is as follows: -uses current Dynon D-10 display hardware -functions as HSI with 360 deg. and 60 deg arcs -inputs and displays VOR, LOC and glideslope, as well as GPS signals -marker beacon lights would be neat -GPS annunciator would be realy neat -no need for stormscope, TCAS etc. If you need that buy a Sandell. -priced similar to the D-10 ($2K) I would but such a unit right now today. How many others out there? Jeff Point RV-6 Panel, wiring Milwaukee WI ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:51:45 AM PST US From: RV3 Subject: Re: RV-List: Dynon survey --> RV-List message posted by: RV3 >With all the talk about the Dynon EFIS over the last couple of days, I >have decided to email the company and let them know about our feelings >regarding an electric HSI. Before I do so, I would like a show of >hands- how many listers would be interested in an electronic HSI >offering from them? The device I have in mind is as follows: > >-uses current Dynon D-10 display hardware >-functions as HSI with 360 deg. and 60 deg arcs >-inputs and displays VOR, LOC and glideslope, as well as GPS signals >-marker beacon lights would be neat >-GPS annunciator would be realy neat >-no need for stormscope, TCAS etc. If you need that buy a Sandell. >-priced similar to the D-10 ($2K) > >I would but such a unit right now today. How many others out there? > Not I. Bob - A fool and his money are soon parted. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:53:48 AM PST US From: "Doug Rozendaal" Subject: Re: RV-List: Dynon survey --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" Count me in! I would send a check today! Doug Rozendaal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Point" Subject: RV-List: Dynon survey > --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point > > With all the talk about the Dynon EFIS over the last couple of days, I > have decided to email the company and let them know about our feelings > regarding an electric HSI. Before I do so, I would like a show of > hands- how many listers would be interested in an electronic HSI > offering from them? The device I have in mind is as follows: > > -uses current Dynon D-10 display hardware > -functions as HSI with 360 deg. and 60 deg arcs > -inputs and displays VOR, LOC and glideslope, as well as GPS signals > -marker beacon lights would be neat > -GPS annunciator would be realy neat > -no need for stormscope, TCAS etc. If you need that buy a Sandell. > -priced similar to the D-10 ($2K) > > I would but such a unit right now today. How many others out there? > > Jeff Point > RV-6 Panel, wiring > Milwaukee WI > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:56:26 AM PST US From: "Dana Overall" Subject: Re: RV-List: Dynon survey --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" >From: RV3 > >Bob - A fool and his money are soon parted. To each his own, but I certainly feel this is a great time to be buying instruments. Why in the world do I want to waste time and foolish money by installing heavy, outdated, clangy ol instruments. One can say, "because they are proven". In the last 4 years I've had the airspeed indicator, alitimeter, one old radio, both mags and one vac pump worked on from my Bonanza. Not a great track record in my book. Same deal with my previous 172. Yes, I am willing to make a little financial gamble to do away with spinners, suckers and mechanical spark makers for the electronic stuff. If it were up to me, I'd throw all this round sh$t out but it wouldn't be prudent..........yeah, right. This stuff will be nothing but backup, let's just hope it doesn't quit working before the electronic stuff. Dynon, Grand Rapids, Garmin 430 coupled to TruTracks new Digitrack 2 mounted on my recently completed carbon fiber panel in my black RV-7 with the tinted canopy. Can't wait to fly it!! Like I said, to each his own. BTW, Dynon moniters this site so they know about this thread. Dana Overall Richmond, KY RV-7 slider/fuselage Finish kit ordered!! Buying Instruments http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:36:51 AM PST US From: mstewart@qa.butler.com Subject: RE: RV-List: Dynon survey tests=AWL,BAYES_01,NO_REAL_NAME,USER_IN_WHITELIST version=2.53 --> RV-List message posted by: mstewart@qa.butler.com Sent my e-mail saying the same yesterday. And lets put the do not archive in there . Especially on the questions. Let the author of a good response remove it. I watched a dozen ?'s go out yesterday without it. Mike Stewart Its up there With all the talk about the Dynon EFIS over the last couple of days, I have decided to email the company and let them know about our feelings regarding an electric HSI. Before I do so, I would like a show of hands- how many listers would be interested in an electronic HSI offering from them? Jeff Point RV-6 Panel, wiring Milwaukee WI ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:59:06 AM PST US From: doug Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Option for CS after fitting FP Sensenich --> RV-List message posted by: doug Rick, I understand your concern and can confirm that I have re-read SI 1435 after Eustace's post. True, this SI says absolutely nothing about the option to retain the line and not pierce the rear plug. Also, I do not recall any mention of this option in the AD adressing the interior corrosion on hollow cranks fitted with constant speed props. That said, I believe Eustace's comments to be 100% correct. It makes perfect sense to drain the oil from the crank through the govenor line back to the sump. I'm sure this was Lycoming's intent. What I don't understand is why SI 1435 does not entertain this option at all. Is Lycoming being ultra conservative? I suspect they are but on the other hand perhaps there is a legitimate engineering requirement to remove the line and puncture the rear plug beyond simply draining the oil pressure. It would be best if Lycoming did confirm this as an option or explain why it is not. Doug Gray Eustace Bowhay wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Eustace Bowhay" > > Hi Rick: > > Maybe my post on this subject needs further clarification. > > As I posted, if the engine has the governor line installed, that is the line > from the governor adapter to the front gallery and has the correct cover on > the adapter (has a slot in it to allow the oil to return to the crankcase > and prevent any build-up of pressure between the two front plugs the rear > plug does not need to be pierced. > > If the engine does not have a governor line installed and the rear plug is > installed then it would have to be pierced. An easy way to tell is to remove > the fitting from the front gallery (the one that the governor line goes to > and blow in it. If pressure builds it would mean that the rear plug is > installed and not pierced. This would require removal of the front plug and > piercing of the rear plug and a new front plug installed. This piercing > should be done with a sharp punch and not drilled to prevent and metal going > into the engine. > > Bottom line is we don't want any pressure build-up between the two plugs to > prevent blowing the front one. > > This says it is possible to have several different combinations depending on > the engine source. > > Check list would be, if installing a fixed pitch on an engine with a > governor adapter and line installed to the front gallery disconnect the line > at the front and blow into the line,this will establish if the governor > adapter has the correct cover on it no pressure should build. Then blow into > the front gallery, if the pressure builds this means that the rear plug is > in place and a constant speed could be installed by only removing the front > plug. If pressure does not build the rear plug would have to be replaced to > run a constant speed. > > I will be at Van's Homecoming and will check the new engines from Lycoming > and determine how they are shipped. > > Eustace > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rick Galati" > To: > Subject: RV-List: Re: Option for CS after fitting FP Sensenich > > > >>--> RV-List message posted by: Rick Galati >> >> >>Subject: >> >> >>Option for CS after fitting FP Sensinech >> >>From: >> >> >>doug (dgra1233@bigpond.net.au) >> >>Date: >> >> >>Mon Aug 11 - 3:13 AM >> >>--> RV-List message posted by: doug >> >> >>Eustace Bowhay wrote: >> >>To run the fixed pitch on a factory new just bolt the prop >> >>on, >> >> >>If I install a Sensenich 70CM with the 2.25" spacer on a Factory new O-320 > > D1A I understand from Eustace's post that I do nothing but bolt it to the > engine. This is good newssnip > >> >>Doug Gray >> >> >>Doug, >> >> >>I would look into that assumption a little closer. After several phone > > calls by me and others to Lycoming with confusing advice, here's what Tom > Green of Van's had to say. > >> >>Tom Green wrote: >>Thanks Rick, we certainly recommend the piercing... as a matter of >>fact, we are the folks who demanded that each new engine >>delivered by Van's have SI 1435 in the box. Prior to that there was >>only our word on it... Lycoming is pretty clear on it and we ahve >>published it in our RVator within the last couple of years as well... I >>am curious what information or where you got conflicting info on the >>topic, Tom >> >> >>Rick, for use with a FIXED PITCH propeller, the front plug must FIRST be > > removed, the INTERIOR plug pierced, and then a NEW front plug inserted.Tom > >> >>Rick Galati FWF RV-6A 0320-D1A >> >>--------------------------------- >> >> > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:01:39 AM PST US From: "Pat Hatch" Subject: Re: RV-List: Dynon survey --> RV-List message posted by: "Pat Hatch" Dynon D-11 HSI--I'm a buyer. do not archive Pat Hatch RV-4 RV-6 RV-7 QB (Building) Vero Beach, FL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Point" Subject: RV-List: Dynon survey > --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point > > With all the talk about the Dynon EFIS over the last couple of days, I > have decided to email the company and let them know about our feelings > regarding an electric HSI. Before I do so, I would like a show of > hands- how many listers would be interested in an electronic HSI > offering from them? The device I have in mind is as follows: > > -uses current Dynon D-10 display hardware > -functions as HSI with 360 deg. and 60 deg arcs > -inputs and displays VOR, LOC and glideslope, as well as GPS signals > -marker beacon lights would be neat > -GPS annunciator would be realy neat > -no need for stormscope, TCAS etc. If you need that buy a Sandell. > -priced similar to the D-10 ($2K) > > I would but such a unit right now today. How many others out there? > > Jeff Point > RV-6 Panel, wiring > Milwaukee WI > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:14:48 AM PST US From: RV3 Subject: Re: RV-List: Dynon survey --> RV-List message posted by: RV3 >Like I said, to each his own. > >BTW, Dynon moniters this site so they know about this thread. > > >Dana Overall > Oooooooo.... So, Dynon monitors this thread. Good idea for them. In the first place, I'm not bad mouthing Dynon. I'm just not leaping to spend thousands of hard earned dollars on any product that is less than somewhat proven or still vaporware. Like you say, to each his own. I'm just stating an opinion that has evolved from flying for 50 years and 65 years of being subjected to most every heartbreak know to man and woman. Nothing quite like 'having been there'. If you haven't.... YMMV. Best of luck to all who insist on following blindly, especially in VFR conditions. :-P Bob - No fool like an old fool. Act in haste, repent in leisure. A fool and his money are soon parted. Do not archive. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:31:07 AM PST US From: doug Subject: RV-List: Off list - Re: Option for CS after fitting FP Sensinech --> RV-List message posted by: doug Thanks Eustace, So if the spinner rear bulkhead has a flange 11/16 inches wide then it should fit just fine. Doug Eustace Bowhay wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Eustace Bowhay" > > Hi Doug: > > On my 0360 Hartzell combination the distance from the rear edge of the > spinner to the face of the ring gear is 1 and 9/16 inches give or take a 32 > second. > > Eustace > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "doug" > To: > Subject: RV-List: Option for CS after fitting FP Sensinech > > > >>--> RV-List message posted by: doug >> >>Eustace Bowhay wrote: >> >>>To run the fixed pitch on a factory new just bolt the prop >>>on, >> >> >>If I install a Sensenich 70CM with the 2.25" spacer on a Factory new >>O-320 D1A I understand from Eustace's post that I do nothing but bolt it >>to the engine. This is good news. >> >>Now if I install the Sensenich and cut the Standard (used to be called a >>Constant Speed cowl) polyester cowl to fit, and later I choose to >>upgrade to a Constant Speed Prop, can someone tell me if the cowling >>will then fit the CS prop? >> >>I'm thinking a Hartzell or MT one day... >> >>If it does I will be very happy... >>Doug Gray >> >> ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:03:03 AM PST US From: Bob Japundza Subject: RV-List: Re: wheel bearings heads up --> RV-List message posted by: Bob Japundza I've bought bearings a few times from Applied (used to be Bearings Inc.) and their prices on the Timken 08125 (cone) and 08231 (races) are fairly close to typical aircraft supplier prices (about $60/wheel), so no big savings there. If I understood Robby correctly (I may be wrong) he was saying that it was $40 for bearings for both wheels (four bearings, four races), because I told him I gave $120 for bearings/races for both wheels. I think you'd have to cross-reference by dimensions, not the part number, for cheaper bearings. I believe the 08125-08231 #'s are for the faa-cert versions of the bearings. Regards, Bob RV-6 flying F1 under const. --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:31:30 AM PST US From: Scott Bilinski Subject: Re: RV-List: RV vs Lancair --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski I talked with Van's and read some posts here. The way I understand it is the RV was half off the runway (at taxi speed) when it was hit. I was told that the Lancair already had at lest one wheel in the grass and after impact ended up 1000 feet down the runway. So that guy was really moving!!! Not sure if the RV will be fixed and the Lancair may be totalled. That what I have gathered. At 10:25 AM 8/11/03 -0700, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North > >Anybody know how the Lancair/RV incident went down. (this may have already >scrolled by on the list, but I just got back from OSH myself.) > >rumor I heard was RV turned into Lancair after both touched down, but I >didn't actually see it happen. I was looking the other way trying to direct >a C-195 into a parking spot. I didn't know it was the factory's Little Red. >I would now be suprised to hear this rumor is accurate as the Vans guys all >seem to fly very conservatively these days. > > >W > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:32:05 AM PST US From: Ken Harrill Subject: RE: RV-List: Dynon survey --> RV-List message posted by: Ken Harrill I would definitely buy a Dynon HSI. I have been thinking along these lines recently and actually emailed Dynon suggesting such a unit before this thread started. Ken Harrill RV-6, 220 hours -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Point [mailto:jpoint@mindspring.com] Subject: RV-List: Dynon survey --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point With all the talk about the Dynon EFIS over the last couple of days, I have decided to email the company and let them know about our feelings regarding an electric HSI. Before I do so, I would like a show of hands- how many listers would be interested in an electronic HSI offering from them? The device I have in mind is as follows: -uses current Dynon D-10 display hardware -functions as HSI with 360 deg. and 60 deg arcs -inputs and displays VOR, LOC and glideslope, as well as GPS signals -marker beacon lights would be neat -GPS annunciator would be realy neat -no need for stormscope, TCAS etc. If you need that buy a Sandell. -priced similar to the D-10 ($2K) I would but such a unit right now today. How many others out there? Jeff Point RV-6 Panel, wiring Milwaukee WI ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:46:06 AM PST US From: "Tracy Crook" Subject: Re: RV-List: RV-4 footwells --> RV-List message posted by: "Tracy Crook" > --> RV-List message posted by: N223RV@aol.com > > I have the 18 years of RVator, and the plans are in there. Like another > lister said, mine too interfered with the aileron pushrods. I had to move the > front walls of the footwells back about 3/4" from the dimensions on those plans > and they cleared. Just a heads up, may save you some re-work..... > -Mike Kraus > RV-4 N223RV 75 hours I built the "interfearing" footwells too. Instead of starting over, I cut away the semi circular area that interfears with the aileron tube and built a sheetmetal hump in the well. It ends up being perfectly positioned for an "arch support". Very comfy for barefoot passengers. Tracy Crook ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:02:18 AM PST US From: "Dana Overall" Subject: Re: RV-List: Dynon survey --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" >From: RV3 > > >Like I said, to each his own. > > > >BTW, Dynon moniters this site so they know about this thread. > > > > > >Dana Overall > > > >Oooooooo.... >So, Dynon monitors this thread. >Good idea for them. > Sorry Bob, I didn't mean it the way the seem to have taken it. What was meant by that short sentence was Dynon has seen the interest in the unit being discussed, not spying for tidbits. Heck, my Dynon is supposed to be here Thurs like I said, but I am also installing a Grand Rapids. Did you hear that Dynon;) Dana Overall Richmond, KY RV-7 slider/fuselage Finish kit ordered!! Buying Instruments http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:11:57 AM PST US From: "Aircraft Technical Book Company" Subject: RV-List: lightspeed crank sensor vs hall sensor --> RV-List message posted by: "Aircraft Technical Book Company" Can someone comment on the choice of Lightspeed sensors - in the flywheel vs the hall effect sensor in the mag. Seems to me the direct crankshaft sensor has the advantages of being more accurate and simpler - meaning fewer things to break; but the disadvantage of being difficult to install. So my question is how hard is it? Is it just a simple matter of drilling a hole in the flywheel? Can it be done with the flywheel attached? And then, how does the magnet fasten into the wheel? Any other comments? Andy ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:28:16 AM PST US From: "Brian Denk" Subject: Re: RV-List: lightspeed crank sensor vs hall sensor --> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" > >Can someone comment on the choice of Lightspeed sensors - in the flywheel >vs >the hall effect sensor in the mag. > >Seems to me the direct crankshaft sensor has the advantages of being more >accurate and simpler - meaning fewer things to break; but the disadvantage >of being difficult to install. > >So my question is how hard is it? Is it just a simple matter of drilling a >hole in the flywheel? Can it be done with the flywheel attached? And >then, >how does the magnet fasten into the wheel? Any other comments? > >Andy I say forget about the flywheel sensor. Just get the mag hole module. It's ridiculously easy to install and time. Any gear slop is insignificant in the overall ignition equation. Brian Denk RV8 N94BD Lightspeed w/ mag module for two years and love it. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:31:34 AM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Dynon survey --> RV-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" Oooooooo.... So, Dynon monitors this thread. Good idea for them. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the VP of Engineering at Dynon is an RV-6 builder. Terry Do not archive ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:37:14 AM PST US From: mstewart@qa.butler.com Subject: RE: RV-List: lightspeed crank sensor vs hall sensor tests=AWL,BAYES_00,NO_REAL_NAME,ORIGINAL_MESSAGE, USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=ham version=2.53 --> RV-List message posted by: mstewart@qa.butler.com Add direct crank is cheaper to your list of item to compare. And ILL add do not archive again today. Mike Stewart Dual LSI plasma III's -----Original Message----- From: Aircraft Technical Book Company [mailto:winterland@rkymtnhi.com] Subject: RV-List: lightspeed crank sensor vs hall sensor --> RV-List message posted by: "Aircraft Technical Book Company" Can someone comment on the choice of Lightspeed sensors - in the flywheel vs the hall effect sensor in the mag. Seems to me the direct crankshaft sensor has the advantages of being more accurate and simpler - meaning fewer things to break; but the disadvantage of being difficult to install. So my question is how hard is it? Is it just a simple matter of drilling a hole in the flywheel? Can it be done with the flywheel attached? And then, how does the magnet fasten into the wheel? Any other comments? Andy ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:48 AM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: Dynon survey --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" Count me in (in about a year or two when I have the money to blow). That's pretty much exactly what that hole is reserved for right beneath my 1st Dynon... 8-) http://www.rvproject.com/images/panel/panel-20030709.jpg do not archive )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Point" Subject: RV-List: Dynon survey > --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point > > With all the talk about the Dynon EFIS over the last couple of days, I > have decided to email the company and let them know about our feelings > regarding an electric HSI. Before I do so, I would like a show of > hands- how many listers would be interested in an electronic HSI > offering from them? The device I have in mind is as follows: > > -uses current Dynon D-10 display hardware > -functions as HSI with 360 deg. and 60 deg arcs > -inputs and displays VOR, LOC and glideslope, as well as GPS signals > -marker beacon lights would be neat > -GPS annunciator would be realy neat > -no need for stormscope, TCAS etc. If you need that buy a Sandell. > -priced similar to the D-10 ($2K) > > I would but such a unit right now today. How many others out there? > > Jeff Point > RV-6 Panel, wiring > Milwaukee WI > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:40 AM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: lightspeed crank sensor vs hall sensor --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > Seems to me the direct crankshaft sensor has the advantages of being more > accurate and simpler - meaning fewer things to break; but the disadvantage > of being difficult to install. I agree 100% with this and went with the direct crank sensor instead of the Hall effect sensor. The only problems I've heard about with the LSE systems has been with the Hall effect sensor...seems like an easy decision to make based on that [possibly limited] information. > So my question is how hard is it? Is it just a simple matter of drilling a > hole in the flywheel? Can it be done with the flywheel attached? And then, > how does the magnet fasten into the wheel? Any other comments? http://www.lightspeedengineering.com/Products/CrankSensor.htm "Use a number 32 drill, 1/8" deep so that the magnets can be pressed in flush with the surface. Use loctite and stake around them." LSE charges only $50 (which in my opinion is *easily* justifiable) for them to install the magnets in your flywheel for you. Takes the guesswork out of it and *still* costs less than the Hall effect sensor, I believe. "You may wish to send your flywheel to LSE for installation of the magnets and the timing marks; cost is $50 plus $10 for insured shipping; plan on 1 day plus shipping time." )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:56:01 AM PST US From: Scott Bilinski Subject: Re: RV-List: lightspeed crank sensor vs hall sensor --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski I went with the crank fire it was installed when the engine was built. From what I can see remove flywheel and send to Light speed and let them drill it. This is something you should not try on a drill press. The magnet is pressed in place. You will then have to run a cable through the fire wall to the brain box. From the brain box 2 coax cables to the coils (back through the fire wall) most likely mounted on top of the engine. Spark plug adaptors so you can use the provided automotive spark plugs. Your right about the crank fire and less to go wrong. You will also need the large flywheel to fit the crank fire pick up. I dont think they have a set up for the small flywheel but call and verify if thats what you have. From what I have seen on my engine and installing the brain boxes plan on a long weekend to install. One more thing when routing the coax to the coils DO NOT clamp the wires tightly. OR, just use RG-400 and make new cables. Read everything on their web site also. At 10:03 AM 8/12/03 -0600, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Aircraft Technical Book Company" > > >Can someone comment on the choice of Lightspeed sensors - in the flywheel vs >the hall effect sensor in the mag. > >Seems to me the direct crankshaft sensor has the advantages of being more >accurate and simpler - meaning fewer things to break; but the disadvantage >of being difficult to install. > >So my question is how hard is it? Is it just a simple matter of drilling a >hole in the flywheel? Can it be done with the flywheel attached? And then, >how does the magnet fasten into the wheel? Any other comments? > >Andy > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:18 AM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV-List: lightspeed crank sensor vs hall sensor --> RV-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" Andy, From the Lightspeed installation instructions: " ... the direct crank sensor system provides complete redundancy for single or dual Plasma CDI systems. This crank sensor concept requires removal of the flywheel for installation. Its reliability and performance is expected to be superior to that of the accessory case mounted Hall Sensor Module because of its lack of bearings, seals, and gears. All 6-cylinder versions use direct crank sensors." The manual seems pretty clear, but I didn't have to do it myself. Aero Sport Power installed it on the engine I bought from them. Terry -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Aircraft Technical Book Company Subject: RV-List: lightspeed crank sensor vs hall sensor --> RV-List message posted by: "Aircraft Technical Book Company" Can someone comment on the choice of Lightspeed sensors - in the flywheel vs the hall effect sensor in the mag. Seems to me the direct crankshaft sensor has the advantages of being more accurate and simpler - meaning fewer things to break; but the disadvantage of being difficult to install. So my question is how hard is it? Is it just a simple matter of drilling a hole in the flywheel? Can it be done with the flywheel attached? And then, how does the magnet fasten into the wheel? Any other comments? Andy ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:15:29 AM PST US From: "Dana Overall" Subject: RV-List: Instrument location for 7 & 9 gang --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" I could use a little helping hand here. When you slider guys sit on the pilot side of your 7 or 9, where would say your line of sight intersects the top of the panel. If you could point out this location in relation to the 7017L where it screws to the panel via the nutplate, it would be helpful. I want to position my Dynon at this point and also need to position my 430 within the accepted vision parameters to avoid installation of an annunciater panel. I realize I am going to have to cut and reinforce the 7017, so be it. I know my layout, I just need a good reference in relation to the attachment point of the 7017L. BTW, I just got an order of steam guages delivered by FedEx........yuck. Sorry, couldn't resist;) Thanks, Dana Overall Richmond, KY RV-7 slider/fuselage Finish kit ordered!! Buying Instruments http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:39:46 AM PST US From: "Mitch Faatz" Subject: RV-List: Cylindrical Facet fuel pump --> RV-List message posted by: "Mitch Faatz" In the near future, those of us that want to use the "beer can" facet fuel pump as described in the archives will have a much easier time getting the pump. Dealing with J&N, etc was ridiculous and was going to be very expensive. I talked with Aircraft Spruce this morning and apparently I was the straw that broke the camel's back - they are going to start stocking that fuel pump as a regular item now. To save a trip to the archives, it's the Facet 40007E and since it has 1/4" inlets it makes putting the fuel pump and gascolator in the wing root much easier. It has a good-sized inlet filter element that is easy to inspect and clean, and is used on thousands of Piper aircraft. Search for messages from Mark Navratil (czechsix@juno.com) for more good details about the pump. Price quoted by Aircraft Spruce was $55. J&N started quoted me at $140 and I "worked them down" to $79. No thanks. Mitch Faatz RV-6A Finish Kit Auburn, CA ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:09:49 PM PST US From: RV3 Subject: Re: RV-List: Dynon survey --> RV-List message posted by: RV3 >>> >>> >>Oooooooo.... >>So, Dynon monitors this thread. >>Good idea for them. >> >> >> > > >Sorry Bob, I didn't mean it the way the seem to have taken it. What was >meant by that short sentence was Dynon has seen the interest in the unit >being discussed, not spying for tidbits. Heck, my Dynon is supposed to be >here Thurs like I said, but I am also installing a Grand Rapids. Did you >hear that Dynon;) > > >Dana Overall > No problem, Dana. I'm not at all offended. In fact, if nobody bought the latest and greatest gizmos as quick as they came from the oven, where would conservatives like me be? Still waiting at the station for the bus, train or plane to be invented? Could be. Anywhooo, business needs guys like you and even me.... after you're well satisfied.. :-) Bob - Waiting for faster, better and cheaper, but... make it quick. I'm not getting any younger. ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:22:55 PM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: RV-List: Fw: Remote compass...ferrous connector? --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" FYI... )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nick Bogner" Subject: RE: Remote compass...ferrous connector? > Dan, That is a very good question. We have done testing for that very > thing and there in no problem using a standard d-sub connector. That is why > the connector is at one end of the box and the actual sensors are at the > other. > > > Nick Bogner - Lead Design Engineer > Dynon Avionics, Inc. www.dynondevelopment.com > 19501 144th Ave NE, Ste. C-500, Woodinville, WA 98072 > Ph. (425)402-0834 fax (425) 984-1751 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gillian D'Ancicco [mailto:gillian@dynondevelopment.com] > Sent: Monday, August 11, 2003 8:21 AM > To: Nick Bogner > Subject: FW: Remote compass...ferrous connector? > > > Gillian C. D'Ancicco > > Business Manager > Dynon Avionics Inc. > 19501 144th Ave NE > Suite C-500 > Woodinville, WA 98072 > (425)402-4404 Phone (425)984-1751 Fax > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dan Checkoway [mailto:dan@rvproject.com] > Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2003 11:22 AM > To: Gillian D'Ancicco > Subject: Remote compass...ferrous connector? > > > Gillian, > > I have a question about the remote compass used with the EFIS-D10. I > installed it the other day in my RV-7 and everything was hunky dory until I > realized that the D-9 connector I'm using, including the retaining screws, > all happily jump right up to a magnet. > > Is this significant enough that I should worry about it? I haven't seen any > all-plastic or brass D-9 connectors. > > Thanks, > )_( Dan > RV-7 N714D > http://www.rvproject.com > > > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Version: 6.0.507 / Virus Database: 304 - Release Date: 8/4/2003 > > --- > Version: 6.0.507 / Virus Database: 304 - Release Date: 8/4/2003 > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 12:37:13 PM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: Instrument location for 7 & 9 gang --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" Instead of all that, why not just center it up on the control stick? That's what I did and it's directly in front of me...tip-up or slider aside. )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dana Overall" Subject: RV-List: Instrument location for 7 & 9 gang > --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" > > I could use a little helping hand here. When you slider guys sit on the > pilot side of your 7 or 9, where would say your line of sight intersects the > top of the panel. If you could point out this location in relation to the > 7017L where it screws to the panel via the nutplate, it would be helpful. I > want to position my Dynon at this point and also need to position my 430 > within the accepted vision parameters to avoid installation of an > annunciater panel. I realize I am going to have to cut and reinforce the > 7017, so be it. > > I know my layout, I just need a good reference in relation to the attachment > point of the 7017L. > > BTW, I just got an order of steam guages delivered by FedEx........yuck. > Sorry, couldn't resist;) > > Thanks, > > > Dana Overall > Richmond, KY > RV-7 slider/fuselage > Finish kit ordered!! Buying Instruments > http://rvflying.tripod.com > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 01:40:35 PM PST US From: JDaniel343@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Van's Oil Pressure Guage Questions --> RV-List message posted by: JDaniel343@aol.com I am on my second sending unit. Still have fluctuating oil pressure reading. This last weekend I soldered a wire directly to the sending unit and ran it to my grounding buss. Still have fluctuating oil pressure readings. I know I have goo oil pressure because a friend and I tee'd off at the oil line and ran a mechanical gauge and the electrical unit. 80 psi on the mechanical, 40 psi on the electrical. Is there a way to check the electrical gauge? John Danielson ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 01:53:30 PM PST US From: "Trampas" Subject: RE: RV-List: Van's Oil Pressure Guage Questions --> RV-List message posted by: "Trampas" Yes, try disconnecting the gauge from sender and then using an ohm meter arcos the sender. If the ohms fluctuate it is most likely sender. If not then reconnect the gauge to sender and measure voltage on the wire from sender to gauge. If the voltage fluctuates then the problem is gauge or power to gauge. Thus next check power at gauge and see if it fluctuates, if so then power problem if not it is a bad gauge. Trampas -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JDaniel343@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Van's Oil Pressure Guage Questions --> RV-List message posted by: JDaniel343@aol.com I am on my second sending unit. Still have fluctuating oil pressure reading. This last weekend I soldered a wire directly to the sending unit and ran it to my grounding buss. Still have fluctuating oil pressure readings. I know I have goo oil pressure because a friend and I tee'd off at the oil line and ran a mechanical gauge and the electrical unit. 80 psi on the mechanical, 40 psi on the electrical. Is there a way to check the electrical gauge? John Danielson ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:24:51 PM PST US From: N223RV@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Dynon survey --> RV-List message posted by: N223RV@aol.com Count me in too! I already have a nice hole under my D-10 that it would fit nicely in! Right now I have my Garmin 295 HSI, but would prefer the Dynon! -Mike Kraus N223RV RV-4 75 hours Do not archive ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:46:22 PM PST US From: "Jim Sears" Subject: Re: RV-List: Cylindrical Facet fuel pump --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Sears" > To save a trip to the archives, it's the Facet 40007E and since it > has 1/4" inlets it makes putting the fuel pump and gascolator in the > wing root much easier. It has a good-sized inlet > filter element that is easy to inspect and clean, and is used on > thousands of Piper aircraft. Price quoted by Aircraft Spruce was > $55. I've been using the Facet #478360 sold by Aircraft Spruce for three years. It looks just like the one I had in my Cheetah. What's so different about the #40007E? Is it the filter element, size, or what? The #478360 doesn't have a filter; but, it does have a screen in the bottom. The bottom comes off easily for maintenance and costs a about $70. The price is certainly better! Alas, I don't have a gascolator on my RV. A friend of mine did and is already having problems with it. Jim Sears in KY RV-6A N198JS EAA Tech Counselor ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 02:55:16 PM PST US From: "Mitch Faatz" Subject: Re: RV-List: Cylindrical Facet fuel pump --> RV-List message posted by: "Mitch Faatz" >I've been using the Facet #478360 sold by Aircraft Spruce for three years. >It looks just like the one I had in my Cheetah. What's so different about >the #40007E? Is it the filter element, size, or what? The #478360 >doesn't have a filter; but, it does have a screen in the bottom. The >bottom comes off easily for maintenance and costs a about $70. The price >is certainly better! Alas, I don't have a gascolator on my RV. A friend >of mine did and is already having problems with it. I believe the main difference is that the 478360 has smaller 1/8" pipe threads. Mitch Faatz RV-6A Finish Kit Auburn, CA ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 03:06:39 PM PST US From: "Dana Overall" Subject: Re: RV-List: Instrument location for 7 & 9 gang --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" >From: "Dan Checkoway" >Instead of all that, why not just center it up on the control stick? >That's >what I did and it's directly in front of me...tip-up or slider aside. Well after that brain f@rt, I guess I am required to leave the dumb@$$ sign stuck to my forehead, for all to see, for at least a day:-) Thanks Dan!! Without a doubt.........DO NOT ARCHIVE Dana Overall Richmond, KY RV-7 slider/fuselage Finish kit ordered!! Buying Instruments http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 03:33:07 PM PST US From: Wheeler North Subject: RV-List: Dynon Discussion --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North Ken, and others, I'm not sure why you say this <<<<<>>>>>> First said, I'm NOT trying to bite your head off, and I would like to hear your reasons for this. Having several hundred landings on the Dynon AOA I'm the lone nut who can testify that their AOA does work as does their external compass module which has flown me cross country twice now. I am a little confused as to why you feel the AOA would be of little value as implemented. The darned AOA thing has completely changed the way I finish an approach to landing, and how I take off. It is my understanding that the Navy has also found these to be the only way to hit the postage stamp in the correct AOA condition for stopping 100000 lbs in 100 ft. I keep the bar at the intersection of the green to yellow, just before touch down I add a small amount of power and touch down three point, or I pull back slightly and touch down tail first. In both cases if I time it right the plane touches down at the same time the bar goes into the red. In all the stalls I did calibrating and then testing, once calibrated the unit has never stalled in the yellow or green, whether fast, slow, quick, turning, flaps up, flaps down etc. During take off I have now had several high density altitude take offs where both airspeeds said go, but the AOA was still saying to much AOA for the current airspeed so I gratefully left it on the runway a little longer. (This, by the way, is why I rarely do three point takeoffs) The only difficulty I have had with this unit is training my eye muscles to use it, to land my focal point on it in the right spot/focal length when I go from outside view to inside view, then scan the other gauges as needed. And this problem has faded fairly quickly in spite of the fact that I'm not very trainable. If there is an implementation issue with the AOA such as display location that I'm missing, please let us know as Dynon has been very receptive to their clientelle's input. RE IFR, its pure sillyness to put your eggs into one basket, but this unit makes it very easy to have the standard six flight instruments with the AI replaced by the Dynon, and the DG/TC replaced by electrics and, viola no vacume!!! The backup battery/alternator options available today make redundancy issues possible ad infinitum. (by the way AI is currently the FAA way to refer to a pitch and roll reference indicator, which leads me to believe they are accepting the use of non-gyro based indicators) If Dynon were to make an HSI the question I would think they would have for the list is which data source would you want them to use, GPS or VOR/ILS. The reason I ask this is because Dynon has not indicated much interest in making TSO'd products for Type Certified aircraft. It just doesn't seem to be their current market. (I may be speaking out of order here so if a Dynon employee is lurking out there I apologize) But to make a navigational instrument that is legally allowed to be used in a precision approach they would then need to seek certification of the accuracy and reliability of the unit and software as defined in several FAA Orders. This is because the rules are different for IFR navigational devices (under Part 91 and FAA Orders) as compared to flight instruments (soley under part 91). The issue with navigational IFR devices is that Part 91 says the navigational devices must be "appropriate" to the facilities being used. They then define "appropriate" in numerous "Technical Standard Orders". This doesn't really happen for flight instruments. Their only issue is what acceptable/approved data allows them to be installed in a specific aircraft. And this data is mostly not required for EXPs unless the device is externally interactive like a nav/com radio, elt or xponder. But if Dynon used lower cost GPS input, with their magnetic compass data to correct for wind they could make a very nice non-precision situational awareness device (SAD) for moderate costs. You would still need a precision device (TSO'd to the above mentioned "appropriateness") like the VAL INS422 or the Narco 122D+ to fly a legal precision approach. On the down side the (SAD) market is fairly saturated, so that may be why they are looking to other high accuracy precision indicator (HAPI) market devices first. thx W ps, I wasn't sure I could do that last sentence with a straight face... ;{) do not archive ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 03:42:31 PM PST US From: "Stein Bruch" "Rv8-List" , "Rv9-List" , "Rv-List" Subject: RV-List: New Online Store --> RV-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" Hi All, Sorry for the plug here, but I just finished the first part of my new online store. Items for sale include ATO blade fuses, fuse blocks, terminals, wire, and more to come. Same brand and quality of products, but %25-50 cheaper than most other places on the web (Van's, etc..). Wes able to negotiate some great deals with suppliers so we all can save money. The store is on my website at: http://www.steinair.com and click on "store". Cheers, Stein Bruch Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 04:07:50 PM PST US From: RV6160hp@aol.com Subject: RV-List: EAA FORUM Fulton NY, NOW RV9 Flight Training, 9th RV Forum NY Sept. 12-13-14 --> RV-List message posted by: RV6160hp@aol.com Mark your calendars and plan to attend. September 12, 2003 Friday night fly in, cook out and camp out. The EAA 486 General meeting night too. September 13, 2003 Saturday technical seminars all day, meals provided to paid attendee's. Then a nice dinner banquet with a presentation. This year Mr. Kirk House, ex-Director Curator of the Glenn Cirtiss Museum will talk about the books on Glenn he wrote, and how Glenn was the ultimate Experimenter! September 14, 2003 Sunday AM our great pancake breakfast and perhaps a coordinated fly out for lunch, planes, weather and pilots willing. see us at www.eaachapter486.com We will be updating (correcting-there are ome errors now) our site soon with the 2003 plans. Last year over 56+ RV's and 25 SPAM's flew in with over 150 attendee's. This year we have (thank the man upstairs and VAN for the support) Mike Seager and the Factory RV9, yes RV9 doing transitional RV flight instruction (which is filling up fast again this year so you builders who are close to flight email Craig Warner at cwarner@twcny.rr.com ) I could go on...but you've been here before and get the picture...just ask some one who has been there the $40 (pre registered) is easily worth it. Hope to See you all there. OH and Al and I plan to give rides this year Dammmmmit! You know my RV? ARE YOU GAME...you need to initiate requests to Piots on your own...don't be shy, many pilots waiting for the kind gesture-request!!!! Respectfully, David McManmon President EAA 486 RV6 Flying, Builder, Pilot N58DM ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 04:19:56 PM PST US From: RV6160hp@aol.com Subject: RV-List: VULTURES formation group, Mid Atlantic VAF wing attending Fulton NY 9th RV forum --> RV-List message posted by: RV6160hp@aol.com The Mid Atlantic RV Wing will again attend the EAA 486's, 9th annual RV Forum in Fulton NY, KFZY Oswego Co Airport Saturday Sept 13, 2003 (RV9 and Mike Seager there too). The "Vultures" will plan on flying some Formation passes as they did last year see website. We look forward to having them at our event again this year and hope to see you all there too! I believe, out of the 24+, spam's and 56+ RV's, Vultures-Mid Atlantic group was 12+ of the RV's....go to: www.eaachapter486.com Find the link for: RV Forum Pictures! bottom RH side-corner, by Joe Czachorowski, "Vulture Lead" with the Mid Atlantic RV Wing See what I mean!!!! Respectfully, David McManmon President EAA 486 RV6 Flying, Builder, Pilot N58DM ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 04:42:33 PM PST US From: Bill Dube Subject: Re: RV-List: Fw: Remote compass...ferrous connector? --> RV-List message posted by: Bill Dube about magnetic fields (like near a compass or magnetic sensor) is cartridge brass. This is the material that they use to make the brass tubing and brass plates that you buy at the hobby store. Of course, they also make ammunition cartridges from it as well. The specific alloy that they use for cartridge brass just so happens to have magnetic properties that mimics a vacuum. It has a relative permeability of 1.0000 (susceptibility of zero.) Basically, to a DC magnetic field, cartridge brass is transparent. Cartridge brass is better than paper, wood, graphite, aluminum, nylon, or any other solid material. So, if you are mounting a compass, use cartridge brass. ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 04:58:11 PM PST US From: "Eustace Bowhay" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Option for CS after fitting FP Sensenich --> RV-List message posted by: "Eustace Bowhay" The reason that some engines are set up with both front and rear plugs intact and equipped with the governor adapter and governor line is to give a choice off running either fixed or constant speed with the least amount of hassle. In this configuration to run a constant speed all that is required is to install the governor and remove the front plug. To run the fixed pitch as I have said before just bolt it on. Replacing the rear plug can be a bit of a bummer for those that don't have the experience or proper tools. Just make sure that the oil can get back through the line to the adapter. the adapter must have the slot in the cover, has the shape of a small paper clip and is around 3/32 deep. The shape of the cover prevents it from being installed incorrectly, make sure it has the proper gasket for this type of cover. I ran this info by Bart Lalonde at Aero Sport to be sure that it is all correct and he confirmed that it was. Eustace Bowhay ----- Original Message ----- From: "doug" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Option for CS after fitting FP Sensenich > --> RV-List message posted by: doug > > Rick, > I understand your concern and can confirm that I have re-read SI 1435 > after Eustace's post. True, this SI says absolutely nothing about the > option to retain the line and not pierce the rear plug. Also, I do not > recall any mention of this option in the AD adressing the interior > corrosion on hollow cranks fitted with constant speed props. > > That said, I believe Eustace's comments to be 100% correct. It makes > perfect sense to drain the oil from the crank through the govenor line > back to the sump. I'm sure this was Lycoming's intent. > > What I don't understand is why SI 1435 does not entertain this option at > all. Is Lycoming being ultra conservative? I suspect they are but on > the other hand perhaps there is a legitimate engineering requirement to > remove the line and puncture the rear plug beyond simply draining the > oil pressure. > > It would be best if Lycoming did confirm this as an option or explain > why it is not. > > Doug Gray > > Eustace Bowhay wrote: > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Eustace Bowhay" > > > > Hi Rick: > > > > Maybe my post on this subject needs further clarification. > > > > As I posted, if the engine has the governor line installed, that is the line > > from the governor adapter to the front gallery and has the correct cover on > > the adapter (has a slot in it to allow the oil to return to the crankcase > > and prevent any build-up of pressure between the two front plugs the rear > > plug does not need to be pierced. > > > > If the engine does not have a governor line installed and the rear plug is > > installed then it would have to be pierced. An easy way to tell is to remove > > the fitting from the front gallery (the one that the governor line goes to > > and blow in it. If pressure builds it would mean that the rear plug is > > installed and not pierced. This would require removal of the front plug and > > piercing of the rear plug and a new front plug installed. This piercing > > should be done with a sharp punch and not drilled to prevent and metal going > > into the engine. > > > > Bottom line is we don't want any pressure build-up between the two plugs to > > prevent blowing the front one. > > > > This says it is possible to have several different combinations depending on > > the engine source. > > > > Check list would be, if installing a fixed pitch on an engine with a > > governor adapter and line installed to the front gallery disconnect the line > > at the front and blow into the line,this will establish if the governor > > adapter has the correct cover on it no pressure should build. Then blow into > > the front gallery, if the pressure builds this means that the rear plug is > > in place and a constant speed could be installed by only removing the front > > plug. If pressure does not build the rear plug would have to be replaced to > > run a constant speed. > > > > I will be at Van's Homecoming and will check the new engines from Lycoming > > and determine how they are shipped. > > > > Eustace > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Rick Galati" > > To: > > Subject: RV-List: Re: Option for CS after fitting FP Sensenich > > > > > > > >>--> RV-List message posted by: Rick Galati > >> > >> > >>Subject: > >> > >> > >>Option for CS after fitting FP Sensinech > >> > >>From: > >> > >> > >>doug (dgra1233@bigpond.net.au) > >> > >>Date: > >> > >> > >>Mon Aug 11 - 3:13 AM > >> > >>--> RV-List message posted by: doug > >> > >> > >>Eustace Bowhay wrote: > >> > >>To run the fixed pitch on a factory new just bolt the prop > >> > >>on, > >> > >> > >>If I install a Sensenich 70CM with the 2.25" spacer on a Factory new O-320 > > > > D1A I understand from Eustace's post that I do nothing but bolt it to the > > engine. This is good newssnip > > > >> > >>Doug Gray > >> > >> > >>Doug, > >> > >> > >>I would look into that assumption a little closer. After several phone > > > > calls by me and others to Lycoming with confusing advice, here's what Tom > > Green of Van's had to say. > > > >> > >>Tom Green wrote: > >>Thanks Rick, we certainly recommend the piercing... as a matter of > >>fact, we are the folks who demanded that each new engine > >>delivered by Van's have SI 1435 in the box. Prior to that there was > >>only our word on it... Lycoming is pretty clear on it and we ahve > >>published it in our RVator within the last couple of years as well... I > >>am curious what information or where you got conflicting info on the > >>topic, Tom > >> > >> > >>Rick, for use with a FIXED PITCH propeller, the front plug must FIRST be > > > > removed, the INTERIOR plug pierced, and then a NEW front plug inserted.Tom > > > >> > >>Rick Galati FWF RV-6A 0320-D1A > >> > >>--------------------------------- > >> > >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 05:00:52 PM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: RV-List: Wing to fuse fairings --> RV-List message posted by: "Tim Bryan" Hello Listers, I am fitting and cutting my wing to fuse fairings. I have scribed and trim the first one to fit against the fuse just fine but still have lots hanging out over the wing root rib. How much should I trim it back for overhang over the root rib of the wing? Also there is a difference between the main portion of the wing root rib and the tank root rib. I also wonder about moving the platenuts out between the root rib and the second rib from the root in order to at least line up with the tank rib. All suggestions appreciated. Tim Bryan RV-6 N616TB ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 05:19:23 PM PST US From: "Tony Castellano" Subject: RV-List: EAA B17 At DXR --> RV-List message posted by: "Tony Castellano" EAA chapter 130, Danbury, CT, is hosting the EAA B17 Aluminum Overcast at Danbury airport (DXR) from Aug 19 to Aug 22. Rides and ground tours are available on Aug 19, 20, and 21 Ground tours are free to World War 2 veterans. For further information please contact me off list. Tony Castellano tcastell@bestweb.net Hopewell Junction, NY RV-6 N401TC ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 05:20:34 PM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: RV-List: EAA FORUM Fulton NY, NOW RV9 Flight Training, 9th RV Forum NY Sept. 12-13-14 --> RV-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" Sounds like a nice event BUT WHERE? I read thru your message but the location wasn't to be found. Cy Galley Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: RV-List: EAA FORUM Fulton NY, NOW RV9 Flight Training, 9th RV Forum NY Sept. 12-13-14 > --> RV-List message posted by: RV6160hp@aol.com > > Mark your calendars and plan to attend. > September 12, 2003 Friday night fly in, cook out and camp out. The EAA 486 General meeting night too. > September 13, 2003 Saturday technical seminars all day, meals provided to paid attendee's. Then a nice dinner banquet with a presentation. This year Mr. Kirk House, ex-Director Curator of the Glenn Cirtiss Museum will talk about the books on Glenn he wrote, and how Glenn was the ultimate Experimenter! > September 14, 2003 Sunday AM our great pancake breakfast and perhaps a coordinated fly out for lunch, planes, weather and pilots willing. > > see us at www.eaachapter486.com > > We will be updating (correcting-there are ome errors now) our site soon with the 2003 plans. Last year over 56+ RV's and 25 SPAM's flew in with over 150 attendee's. > > This year we have (thank the man upstairs and VAN for the support) Mike Seager and the Factory RV9, yes RV9 doing transitional RV flight instruction (which is filling up fast again this year so you builders who are close to flight email Craig Warner at cwarner@twcny.rr.com ) > > I could go on...but you've been here before and get the picture...just ask some one who has been there the $40 (pre registered) is easily worth it. Hope to See you all there. > > OH and Al and I plan to give rides this year Dammmmmit! You know my RV? ARE YOU GAME...you need to initiate requests to Piots on your own...don't be shy, many pilots waiting for the kind gesture-request!!!! > > Respectfully, > David McManmon > President EAA 486 > RV6 Flying, Builder, Pilot N58DM > > ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 05:25:24 PM PST US From: "Ken Simmons" Subject: Re: RV-List: Dynon Discussion --> RV-List message posted by: "Ken Simmons" I wasnt aware that anyone other than Dynon was testing the probe. I should have expected that since its release to the public is imminent. Thats why Im still leaning toward the Dynon even with my criticism of their AOA implementationtheir thorough testing prior to product release. Why I say it would be of little value? After some thought, I think that term, of little value, was a little harsh. First, Im not sure the Dynon is measuring AOA. It appears to work more like the LRI. Im not saying either of these instruments is without value. However, they both rely on an external probe so the placement of the probe would have an impact on their accuracy, as does pitot placement on airspeed accuracy. The measurements provided are measurements in relation to the probe not the wing itself. Yes, they can be calibrated to eliminate error, but is this calibration valid for all flight configurations? They do provide some type of margin to stall so they would be of benefit. It seems the Piper blade type pitot/static would provide a more realistic/conservative airspeed indication giving similar benefits to the Dynon AOA or LRI. I can almost overlook this, but I also have a problem with the way the AOA indication is buried in the instrument along with no audible warning. Yes, a pilot can train himself to add this to a scan, but why not get it up in the peripheral vision and/or have an audible warning. I asked Dynon about this and they said an audible warning is on the future possible features list. I also asked about reading the data output and building my own audible warning. They said this was possible, but I was on my own. To me its just too much of a compromise so Ive decided on the AOA from Proprietary Software. Yes, its expensive, almost half of the entire Dynon instrument, but I think it accurately measures AOA and its operation is understandable to me. I will very likely go with the Dynon and just not use/display the AOA indication. I dont think there is any argument that some type of stall warning device is beneficial. I also dont think Ive heard anyone say anything bad about any of these instruments that theyve flown with. I hope that answers your question Wheeler. Ken ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Wheeler North >--> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North > >Ken, and others, I'm not sure why you say this > ><<<<<not working yet and the way it's implemented will probably be of little >value, >in my opinion.>>>>>>> > >First said, I'm NOT trying to bite your head off, and I would like to hear >your reasons for this. > ---snip--- The Internet Truckstop The first and largest freight matching service on the Intenet ______________ ______________ ______________ ______________ Sent via the KillerWebMail system at truckstop.com ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 05:47:20 PM PST US From: "Bob Hassel" Subject: RE: RV-List: Dynon Discussion --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Hassel" Do you have a link on the AOA you're talking about? Do Not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ken Simmons Subject: Re: RV-List: Dynon Discussion --> RV-List message posted by: "Ken Simmons" I wasnt aware that anyone other than Dynon was testing the probe. I should have expected that since its release to the public is imminent. Thats why Im still leaning toward the Dynon even with my criticism of their AOA implementationtheir thorough testing prior to product release. Why I say it would be of little value? After some thought, I think that term, of little value, was a little harsh. First, Im not sure the Dynon is measuring AOA. It appears to work more like the LRI. Im not saying either of these instruments is without value. However, they both rely on an external probe so the placement of the probe would have an impact on their accuracy, as does pitot placement on airspeed accuracy. The measurements provided are measurements in relation to the probe not the wing itself. Yes, they can be calibrated to eliminate error, but is this calibration valid for all flight configurations? They do provide some type of margin to stall so they would be of benefit. It seems the Piper blade type pitot/static would provide a more realistic/conservative airspeed indication giving similar benefits to the Dynon AOA or LRI. I can almost overlook this, but I also have a problem with the way the AOA indication is buried in the instrument along with no audible warning. Yes, a pilot can train himself to add this to a scan, but why not get it up in the peripheral vision and/or have an audible warning. I asked Dynon about this and they said an audible warning is on the future possible features list. I also asked about reading the data output and building my own audible warning. They said this was possible, but I was on my own. To me its just too much of a compromise so Ive decided on the AOA from Proprietary Software. Yes, its expensive, almost half of the entire Dynon instrument, but I think it accurately measures AOA and its operation is understandable to me. I will very likely go with the Dynon and just not use/display the AOA indication. I dont think there is any argument that some type of stall warning device is beneficial. I also dont think Ive heard anyone say anything bad about any of these instruments that theyve flown with. I hope that answers your question Wheeler. Ken ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Wheeler North >--> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North > >Ken, and others, I'm not sure why you say this > ><<<<<not working yet and the way it's implemented will probably be of little >value, >in my opinion.>>>>>>> > >First said, I'm NOT trying to bite your head off, and I would like to hear >your reasons for this. > ---snip--- The Internet Truckstop The first and largest freight matching service on the Intenet ______________ ______________ ______________ ______________ Sent via the KillerWebMail system at truckstop.com ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 06:09:39 PM PST US From: Thomas Velvick Subject: RE: RV-List: EZ Pilot Digital Autopilot --> RV-List message posted by: Thomas Velvick I know they have a working model on the bench. When and if they will release it, I dont know. I see on their website that they are working on an additional optional digital gyro that plugs into their existing autopilot Head for enhanced turbulence control. Regards, Tom At 11:57 PM 8/11/03 -0700, you wrote: >Time: 10:13:15 AM PST US >From: "McFarland, Randy" >Subject: RE: RV-List: EZ Pilot Digital Autopilot > >--> RV-List message posted by: "McFarland, Randy" > > >Tom, are they also developing an interface to allow you to couple an >altitude hold to it as well? >Randy ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 06:10:43 PM PST US From: "Ken Simmons" Subject: RE: RV-List: Dynon Discussion --> RV-List message posted by: "Ken Simmons" The website for the Proprietary Software AOA is http://www.angle-of-attack.com Ken ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Bob Hassel" >--> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Hassel" > >Do you have a link on the AOA you're talking about? > >Do Not Archive > The Internet Truckstop The first and largest freight matching service on the Intenet ______________ ______________ ______________ ______________ Sent via the KillerWebMail system at truckstop.com ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 06:18:25 PM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: RV-List: Fw: rv-6 forced landing --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" FYI )_( Dan do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Vetter" Subject: rv-6 forced landing > Dan, > > Thought you might want to hear... > > I was at my mechanic's shop today and saw a really nice -6 covered in > oil. My mechanic explained that the guy mounted a fixed pitch prop on > the 200HP IO360 WITHOUT drilling the hole in the rear crank plug. The > pressure built up and forced the forward seal out, which pumped all but > 4.5 quarts of oil out of the engine. He landed it in one piece, but > told my mechanic it was nearly impossible to see out of the canopy > through all the oil. > > Figured you might want to let the RV list guys know about this and > remind any builders putting fixed pitch props on the IO360 to make sure > they drill that hole, or else! > > -Doug > > -- > -------------------- > Doug Vetter, CFIMEIA > dwvcfii@yahoo.com > http://www.dvcfi.com > -------------------- > ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 07:01:46 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: Dynon Discussion --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton >--> RV-List message posted by: "Ken Simmons" > >I wasnt aware that anyone other than Dynon was testing the probe. I >should have expected that since its release to the public is >imminent. Thats why Im still leaning toward the Dynon even with my >criticism of their AOA implementationtheir thorough testing prior to >product release. > >Why I say it would be of little value? After some thought, I think >that term, of little value, was a little harsh. > >First, Im not sure the Dynon is measuring AOA. It appears to work >more like the LRI. Im not saying either of these instruments is >without value. However, they both rely on an external probe so the >placement of the probe would have an impact on their accuracy, as >does pitot placement on airspeed accuracy. The measurements provided >are measurements in relation to the probe not the wing itself. Yes, >they can be calibrated to eliminate error, but is this calibration >valid for all flight configurations? They do provide some type of >margin to stall so they would be of benefit. It seems the Piper >blade type pitot/static would provide a more realistic/conservative >airspeed indication giving similar benefits to the Dynon AOA or LRI. > >I can almost overlook this, but I also have a problem with the way >the AOA indication is buried in the instrument along with no audible >warning. Yes, a pilot can train himself to add this to a scan, but >why not get it up in the peripheral vision and/or have an audible >warning. I asked Dynon about this and they said an audible warning >is on the future possible features list. I also asked about reading >the data output and building my own audible warning. They said this >was possible, but I was on my own. > >To me its just too much of a compromise so Ive decided on the AOA >from Proprietary Software. Yes, its expensive, almost half of the >entire Dynon instrument, but I think it accurately measures AOA and >its operation is understandable to me. I will very likely go with >the Dynon and just not use/display the AOA indication. > >I dont think there is any argument that some type of stall warning >device is beneficial. I also dont think Ive heard anyone say >anything bad about any of these instruments that theyve flown with. > >I hope that answers your question Wheeler. > >Ken Two comments: 1. I agree with the comment about the lack of audible warning, if you are looking for a stall warning system. Any stall warning system that requires the pilot to watch his instruments is doomed to failure. Lets face it, if you know what your airspeed is, and pay a bit of attention to how hard you pull on the stick, you probably won't stall. But, the Dynon (and classical LRI) visual indication only system could in theory allow you to fly the aircraft more accurately and achieve better performance. That may or may not be of value to you depending on what type of flying you do. Certainly if I had an engine failure I would welcome a system that allowed me to fly at the lowest possible speed, no matter what my weight was, without risk of stalling, so I could minimize the speed at touchdown. Note: I spent a few minutes talking to Al Mojzisik of InAir Instruments, one of the two vendors selling LRI systems. Al showed me an add-on aural warning unit that he plans to have on the market soon. It apparently (I hope I've got this right) can be added to existing LRI installations to give an aural warning as the stall is approached. This info isn't yet on their web site. http://www.liftreserve.com/ 2. I wouldn't worry so much about the fact that the Dynon system "isn't measuring AOA". The Proprietary Software system isn't measuring AOA either. Both systems measure pressures in the vicinity of the wing, and infer the Angle of Attack from that. No angles are measured at all. The only way to tell how well each system works is to do a good system of flight tests. Even the AOA vanes you find on fighters, and some transport aircraft are mounted on the fuselage, so they aren't measuring the airflow around the wing. There is always quite a big difference between the changes in angle of the airflow seen at the location of the AOA probe, and the AOA changes at the wing. But the manufacturer goes through a test program to determine at what AOA vane angle the wing will stall. This is not that different from the test program you will need to do once you install any of the various "AOA" systems. -- Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/ ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 07:29:59 PM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Dynon Discussion --> RV-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" * RV-List message posted by: "Ken Simmons" I can almost overlook this, but I also have a problem with the way the AOA indication is buried in the instrument along with no audible warning. Yes, a pilot can train himself to add this to a scan, but why not get it up in the peripheral vision and/or have an audible warning. I asked Dynon about this and they said an audible warning is on the future possible features list. I also asked about reading the data output and building my own audible warning. They said this was possible, but I was on my own. To me its just too much of a compromise so Ive decided on the AOA from Proprietary Software. Yes, its expensive, almost half of the entire Dynon instrument, but I think it accurately measures AOA and its operation is understandable to me. I will very likely go with the Dynon and just not use/display the AOA indication. One of the things that Blue Mountain Avionics is incorporating into the EFIS/one is a presentation of Proprietary Software's AoA information. I installed the ports for the AoA in my wings maybe four years ago, and just last week ordered the rest of the AoA Sport from Proprietary Software. I told Jim that I had decided to install the AoA indicator separate from the EFIS because I wanted it to be more obvious. He said that was fine, and when I got it all installed, he would give me the code to run it through the EFIS too, if I wanted. Although I haven't decided for sure, the indicator may go on top of glare shield. I really didn't like that idea at first, but the more I think about it, the more it seems like that's where it belongs - almost in your line of site when looking over the nose. Another thought ... a local RV-8 pilot told me a few months ago that he thought his Proprietary Software AoA already saved his butt. The tower asked him during his takeoff run if he could turn short of an intersecting runway. He said he cranked it around and then heard the "Angle, Angle, Push" alarm and realized that he was on the verge of a stall in a steep turn close to the deck. If he reads this and wants to correct my version of what I remember, please do. Terry RV-8A finishing Blue Mountain EFIS/one, Proprietary Software AoA Someone asked: Proprietary Software's website is www.angle-of-attack.com ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 07:43:00 PM PST US From: "Amit Dagan" Subject: RV-List: efis efis, bla bla bla --> RV-List message posted by: "Amit Dagan" Let me see if I got it right: 1. Having a TV in your panel is cool, but you need to keep your eyes looking outside. 2. When IFR, you need to keep your eyes scanning the instruments, so an efis is cool and useful. 3. Efis is exensive, but the new models are close to the sum of the cost of individual instruments they are replacing, so that's not too bad. 4. What we really want is something to replace vacuum, or for that mater any movng mass instrument that might fail, because solid state is the state of the art. Seems to me that what the public would realy go for, is: 1. Solid state "gyros" to replace the 3 gyros in the traditional six-pack, with the same user interface. 2. Less than US$1000 each, somewhere between the price of a vacuum gyro and an electric one. 3. They need to be the same form factor (unlike the BMA Lite, like the Dynon D-10) - plug and play. 4. OPTIONAL: cool options like G, AOA, HSI, HITS, TWAS, etc. The only step in this direction that I know of is PCFLightSystems's E-Gyro III. The only place where you can see it is on the web, in a PDF brochure: http://www.pcflightsystems.com/images/PCFSPRODUCTS2003.pdf It's the first product, listed for US$995, and the form factor of the latest version is actually 3.125" wide x 3.5" high x 2.0" deep.- that would fit in a standard 3" hole. Can't wait to read/hear a pilot report on this product. Amit. ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 08:27:35 PM PST US From: "DEREK REED" Subject: Re: RV-List: Dynon Discussion --> RV-List message posted by: "DEREK REED" I have used this unit for two years and would not be without it. Put the light bar at the top of the panel right in line with your line of sight. Forget the airspeed indicator and fly your approach by the LED lights. Derek Reed RV6A ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Simmons" Subject: RE: RV-List: Dynon Discussion > --> RV-List message posted by: "Ken Simmons" > > The website for the Proprietary Software AOA is > http://www.angle-of-attack.com > > Ken > > > ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- > From: "Bob Hassel" > Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:44:16 -0500 > > >--> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Hassel" > > > >Do you have a link on the AOA you're talking about? > > > >Do Not Archive > > > > > The Internet Truckstop > The first and largest > freight matching > service on the > Intenet > > ______________ ______________ ______________ ______________ > Sent via the KillerWebMail system at truckstop.com > > ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 09:07:43 PM PST US From: "Ken Simmons" Subject: Re: RV-List: Dynon Discussion --> RV-List message posted by: "Ken Simmons" Kevin, I agree on point number 1. Any instrument that shows lift reserve, calculated AOA, simulate AOA, whatever, would be a benefit to the pilot if it's used correctly. I don't think it matters which instrument you're talking about as long as it can be calibrated for a specific aircraft and the indications at specific flight conditions are repeatable. The Proprietary Software AOA provides this ability as well as a highly accurate stall warning. That's why I'm going that route. I think I have to disagree a little on point #2. True, you can argue that neither of the systems are measuring true AOA. I did see one at Oshkosh that probably does, but it has a large external probe with an airfoil piece that rotates with the "relative wind" turning a potentiometer. I think it would still have a problem with probe position errors. I think the difference with the Proprietary Software AOA is that it's not measuring preasure on a probe in the vicinity of the wing, it's measuring the pressure on the wing itself. I think this will minimize the difference between the wing AOA and what the probe is seeing. Yes jet aircraft have the AOA probe on the fuselage. I think that is the most accurate you can hope for in a pressure based AOA. The probe in this location on a fighter is not subject to prop wash nor the change in air flow over/under the wing as AOA changes. No, it's not measuring an actual angle, but you can calculate one with a high degree of accuracy. You make a very good point with your last statement about going through a test program to calibrate the unit. This is another reason for the Proprietary Software AOA. They precalibrate the unit for my RV-8 assuming I install the sensing ports at the correct chord positions on the wing. All I need to do is verify the calibration. Ken ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Kevin Horton >--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton > >>--> RV-List message posted by: "Ken Simmons" >> >>I wasnt aware that anyone other than Dynon was testing the probe. I >>should have expected that since its release to the public is >>imminent. Thats why Im still leaning toward the Dynon even with my >>criticism of their AOA implementationtheir thorough testing prior to >>product release. >> >>Why I say it would be of little value? After some thought, I think >>that term, of little value, was a little harsh. >> >>First, Im not sure the Dynon is measuring AOA. It appears to work >>more like the LRI. Im not saying either of these instruments is >>without value. However, they both rely on an external probe so the >>placement of the probe would have an impact on their accuracy, as >>does pitot placement on airspeed accuracy. The measurements provided >>are measurements in relation to the probe not the wing itself. Yes, >>they can be calibrated to eliminate error, but is this calibration >>valid for all flight configurations? They do provide some type of >>margin to stall so they would be of benefit. It seems the Piper >>blade type pitot/static would provide a more realistic/conservative >>airspeed indication giving similar benefits to the Dynon AOA or LRI. >> >>I can almost overlook this, but I also have a problem with the way >>the AOA indication is buried in the instrument along with no audible >>warning. Yes, a pilot can train himself to add this to a scan, but >>why not get it up in the peripheral vision and/or have an audible >>warning. I asked Dynon about this and they said an audible warning >>is on the future possible features list. I also asked about reading >>the data output and building my own audible warning. They said this >>was possible, but I was on my own. >> >>To me its just too much of a compromise so Ive decided on the AOA >>from Proprietary Software. Yes, its expensive, almost half of the >>entire Dynon instrument, but I think it accurately measures AOA and >>its operation is understandable to me. I will very likely go with >>the Dynon and just not use/display the AOA indication. >> >>I dont think there is any argument that some type of stall warning >>device is beneficial. I also dont think Ive heard anyone say >>anything bad about any of these instruments that theyve flown with. >> >>I hope that answers your question Wheeler. >> >>Ken > >Two comments: > >1. I agree with the comment about the lack of audible warning, if you >are looking for a stall warning system. Any stall warning system >that requires the pilot to watch his instruments is doomed to >failure. Lets face it, if you know what your airspeed is, and pay a >bit of attention to how hard you pull on the stick, you probably >won't stall. > >But, the Dynon (and classical LRI) visual indication only system >could in theory allow you to fly the aircraft more accurately and >achieve better performance. That may or may not be of value to you >depending on what type of flying you do. Certainly if I had an >engine failure I would welcome a system that allowed me to fly at the >lowest possible speed, no matter what my weight was, without risk of >stalling, so I could minimize the speed at touchdown. > >Note: I spent a few minutes talking to Al Mojzisik of InAir >Instruments, one of the two vendors selling LRI systems. Al showed >me an add-on aural warning unit that he plans to have on the market >soon. It apparently (I hope I've got this right) can be added to >existing LRI installations to give an aural warning as the stall is >approached. This info isn't yet on their web site. > >http://www.liftreserve.com/ > >2. I wouldn't worry so much about the fact that the Dynon system >"isn't measuring AOA". The Proprietary Software system isn't >measuring AOA either. Both systems measure pressures in the vicinity >of the wing, and infer the Angle of Attack from that. No angles are >measured at all. The only way to tell how well each system works is >to do a good system of flight tests. > >Even the AOA vanes you find on fighters, and some transport aircraft >are mounted on the fuselage, so they aren't measuring the airflow >around the wing. There is always quite a big difference between the >changes in angle of the airflow seen at the location of the AOA >probe, and the AOA changes at the wing. But the manufacturer goes >through a test program to determine at what AOA vane angle the wing >will stall. This is not that different from the test program you >will need to do once you install any of the various "AOA" systems. >-- >Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) >Ottawa, Canada >http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/ > > The Internet Truckstop The first and largest freight matching service on the Intenet ______________ ______________ ______________ ______________ Sent via the KillerWebMail system at truckstop.com ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 09:22:14 PM PST US From: "Robin Wessel" Subject: RV-List: RE: Dynon Survey --> RV-List message posted by: "Robin Wessel" Yes, I would be very interested in a HSI solution from Dynon. My definition would be as follows: Must have -GPS and mag heading displays on either a 360 deg or 60 deg arc -HSI style display from GPS NMEA or Argus (ARINC or Aviation) serial data -GPS waypoint, course, bearing, distance etc display (this should be easy) -D-10 form factor -<$2K price -NAV source annunciation Nice to have -Analog +/- 150 mv course deviation, and flag inputs for localizer display -Heading bug with outputs to NMEA based autopilots such as the trutrack -User selectable display of NMEA or Aviation serial data from GPS such as fuel remaining etc -"localizer alive" annuciator output -Serial ARINC 429 support from Garmin or UPS GPS's for OBS course select and glideslope/localizer indication -Analog support for OBS output (sin/cos/xyz) assuming you do support ARINC 429 -Built-in Database Thanks, Robin Wessel RV-6A flying RV-10 on order #23 Tigard, OR --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point jpoint@mindspring.com With all the talk about the Dynon EFIS over the last couple of days, Ihave decided to email the company and let them know about our feelings regarding an electric HSI. Before I do so, I would like a show of hands- how many listers would be interested in an electronic HSI offering from them? The device I have in mind is as follows: -uses current Dynon D-10 display hardware -functions as HSI with 360 deg. and 60 deg arcs -inputs and displays VOR, LOC and glideslope, as well as GPS signals -marker beacon lights would be neat -GPS annunciator would be realy neat -no need for stormscope, TCAS etc. If you need that buy a Sandell. -priced similar to the D-10 ($2K) I would but such a unit right now today. How many others out there? Jeff Point RV-6 Panel, wiring Milwaukee WI ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 09:28:46 PM PST US From: "James E. Clark" Subject: RE: RV-List: efis efis, bla bla bla --> RV-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" They also had the product at OSH James <<>> > > Seems to me that what the public would realy go for, is: > 1. Solid state "gyros" to replace the 3 gyros in the traditional > six-pack, > with the same user interface. > 2. Less than US$1000 each, somewhere between the price of a > vacuum gyro and > an electric one. > 3. They need to be the same form factor (unlike the BMA Lite, > like the Dynon > D-10) - plug and play. > 4. OPTIONAL: cool options like G, AOA, HSI, HITS, TWAS, etc. > > The only step in this direction that I know of is > PCFLightSystems's E-Gyro > III. The only place where you can see it is on the web, in a PDF brochure: > > http://www.pcflightsystems.com/images/PCFSPRODUCTS2003.pdf > ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 11:27:14 PM PST US From: Wheeler North Wheeler.North@matronics.com Subject: RV-List: Wind shear --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North Folks, I wanted to take a few moments to start a discussion about a wind shear incident that occured to me on the way to OSH this July. Cy, you might also be interested in this topic as a future article, although I wouldn't recommend using any of my drool as I really don't know much about it. In fact, that's the problem I had with it. I have always heard of it, know it can be horizontal or vertical or both, and have always kinda thought of it as a slamming kind of event that one easily gets made aware of and is always very bad bad bad. But it happened going into Santa Fe NM on rwy 02 I think it was. The big black things with sparkys underneath were around the area but not anything close to IMC. The wind was stright down the rwy at 15-20 kts. Basically on final the rwy picture was getting bigger in slow spurts as the wind gusted, but it was fairly stable and not to hard on the bumps, then on mid to short final the rwy pic just started getting flatter faster than it was getting bigger. I finally noticed that I had dialed all the power in and it was still getting flatter. So I started yanking flaps up when I apparently punched through the shear layer and it was all I could do to not go zipping on by the rwy. I now realize that I have had no real training in my repertoire on how to recognize this, how to get out of it, etc. My instincts were to bail flaps and turn towards lower ground/downwind, much like getting out of a riptide, but I now realize that this could have kept me in it, in this situation. I also was severely deluded in that it can occur very quickly but gradually such that you don't feel a vector change, like I had imagined. This might be a common thing for that runway, but I can assure you I was not prepared to suddenly be at full power in a climb attitude going down in a 180 hp fixed pitch RV close to the ground. The lack of ability to feel the change by anything other than a strangely changing runway picture was very illusive, and I now consider myself to be very lucky to have pushed through it having not recognized and turned out of it early on. I would love to hear anybody elses thoughts on what's the best way to get out of this, how to recognize it earlier etc. Post to me as well as the list as I'm would like to include y'all's comments in an article for our local chapter newsletter. thx W wnorth@sdccd.net