---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 08/13/03: 49 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:29 AM - Re: Dynon Discussion (Dan Checkoway) 2. 03:58 AM - Re: Fw: rv-6 forced landing (doug) 3. 05:00 AM - Engine Builder (J. R. Dial) 4. 05:02 AM - Re: Wind shear (RV_8 Pilot) 5. 06:13 AM - Re: Wind shear (Pat Hatch) 6. 06:29 AM - Re: Wind shear (a flyer) 7. 06:32 AM - Re: Wind shear (David Burton) 8. 06:41 AM - dynon engine monitor (Frazier, Vincent A) 9. 06:50 AM - PC Flight Systems. (Dana Overall) 10. 06:56 AM - Re: Wind shear (lucky macy) 11. 07:13 AM - Re: Dynon Discussion (Sam Buchanan) 12. 08:01 AM - Re: Dynon Discussion (SportAV8R@aol.com) 13. 08:37 AM - Re: EAA FORUM Fulton NY, NOW RV9 Flight Training, 9th RV Forum NY (Charles Rowbotham) 14. 09:14 AM - Re: Engine Builder (Terry Watson) 15. 09:14 AM - Re: Avionics master relay (Tim Bryan) 16. 09:32 AM - Re: Dynon Discussion (Dan Checkoway) 17. 09:52 AM - longer screws for rocker box covers (Dan Checkoway) 18. 09:56 AM - Re: Dynon Discussion (Sam Buchanan) 19. 10:08 AM - Re: longer screws for rocker box covers (Brian Denk) 20. 10:25 AM - Re: longer screws for rocker box covers (Kyle Boatright) 21. 11:00 AM - LRI/AOA, airspeed (Dan Checkoway) 22. 11:10 AM - Re: Engine Builder (Scott Bilinski) 23. 12:51 PM - LRI/AOA (Al Mojzisik) 24. 01:35 PM - Re: LRI/AOA, airspeed (Sam Buchanan) 25. 02:40 PM - RVA Training (Rquinn1@aol.com) 26. 02:57 PM - RV-4 seat templates () 27. 02:58 PM - Re: Cylindrical Facet fuel pump (czechsix@juno.com) 28. 03:15 PM - Re: LRI/AOA, airspeed (long) (Doug Rozendaal) 29. 03:23 PM - Re: RVA Training (McFarland, Randy) 30. 03:59 PM - N # change (David.vonLinsowe) 31. 04:03 PM - Re: RVA Training (Nick N) 32. 04:22 PM - Left over parts! (dmedema@att.net) 33. 04:45 PM - Avionics for Sale (Jim Nolan) 34. 05:11 PM - VULTURES formation inbound - FLAPJACK Squadron ESCORT call to arms!!! Re: Fulton NY 9th RV forum (RV6160hp@aol.com) 35. 05:27 PM - Re: Left over parts! (J. R. Dial) 36. 06:44 PM - Re: LRI/AOA, airspeed (long) (Dana Overall) 37. 06:46 PM - SoCAL RV RendezVous (RV6 Flyer) 38. 07:04 PM - AOA (Wheeler North) 39. 07:26 PM - Lost Contact (Emrath) 40. 07:40 PM - Re: Wind shear (Wheeler North) 41. 07:43 PM - Re: AOA (John Starn) 42. 08:02 PM - Mike seager (Gert) 43. 08:15 PM - Cabin Heat (smoothweasel@juno.com) 44. 09:14 PM - Re: Mike seager (N223RV@aol.com) 45. 09:30 PM - Wind shear (Charles Brame) 46. 10:06 PM - Re: Mike seager (aronsond) 47. 10:30 PM - Re: Wind shear (Leland) 48. 10:50 PM - Re: Avionics master relay (Vanremog@aol.com) 49. 10:53 PM - Re: Avionics master relay (Vanremog@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:29:26 AM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: Dynon Discussion --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > Forget the airspeed indicator and fly your approach by the LED lights. Wow. Just one little bout with wind shear and you might regret you said that... 8-) I know, I'm taking you too literally, but that's a pretty bold statement. DO NOT ARCHIVE )_( Dan not a big fan of AOA/LRI http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:58:10 AM PST US From: doug Subject: Re: RV-List: Fw: rv-6 forced landing Netscape/7.02 --> RV-List message posted by: doug Was the engne fitted with the govenor oil line with the correct blanking plate on the pad? If it was not and the openings plugged then it is perfectly understandable. Doug Gray again... do not archive Dan Checkoway wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > > FYI > > )_( Dan > do not archive > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doug Vetter" > To: "Dan Checkoway" > Subject: rv-6 forced landing > > > >>Dan, >> >>Thought you might want to hear... >> >>I was at my mechanic's shop today and saw a really nice -6 covered in >>oil. My mechanic explained that the guy mounted a fixed pitch prop on >>the 200HP IO360 WITHOUT drilling the hole in the rear crank plug. The >>pressure built up and forced the forward seal out, which pumped all but >>4.5 quarts of oil out of the engine. He landed it in one piece, but >>told my mechanic it was nearly impossible to see out of the canopy >>through all the oil. >> >>Figured you might want to let the RV list guys know about this and >>remind any builders putting fixed pitch props on the IO360 to make sure >>they drill that hole, or else! >> >>-Doug >> >>-- >>-------------------- >>Doug Vetter, CFIMEIA >>dwvcfii@yahoo.com >>http://www.dvcfi.com >>-------------------- >> ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:00:27 AM PST US From: "J. R. Dial" Subject: RV-List: Engine Builder --> RV-List message posted by: "J. R. Dial" Anybody used America's Aircraft Engines, Inc. for new XP-360 engines and are you satisfied etc? I am ready to buy an engine and would appreciate past experience. Email me direct if you choose rather than clutter the list. Thanks Dick DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:02:32 AM PST US From: "RV_8 Pilot" Subject: Re: RV-List: Wind shear --> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" Thanks for sharing that interesting story with us, Wheeler. I've never experienced anything that severe landing. I've got into pretty good sinks/downdrafts near mountains and thunderstorm cells, but basically just 180'd out of them. when I'm landing (and teaching them) in gusty or questionable wind siutuations, I recommend normal approach +5 or 10 on the airspeed. Not very sophisticated, but it gives a little additional energy to play with if something like you experienced happens. To detect this, other than seeing airspeed fluctuations, I'd say your eyeballs and maybe the VSI would be about the best way to recognize excessive decent rate. VASI and glideslope would be helpful if present/equipped. In hindsight, I wonder about pulling flaps though. I'd probably think leaving them in (at least at a reasonable climb stetting) would be better. If one smacks the ground, at least they'd have less groundspeed/energy. my 2 Bryan Jones -8 Pearland, Texas >I wanted to take a few moments to start a discussion about a wind shear >incident that occured to me on the way to OSH this July. Cy, you might also >be interested in this topic as a future article, although I wouldn't >recommend using any of my drool as I really don't know much about it. > >In fact, that's the problem I had with it. I have always heard of it, know >it can be horizontal or vertical or both, and have always kinda thought of >it as a slamming kind of event that one easily gets made aware of and is >always very bad bad bad. > >But it happened going into Santa Fe NM on rwy 02 I think it was. The big >black things with sparkys underneath were around the area but not anything >close to IMC. The wind was stright down the rwy at 15-20 kts. > >Basically on final the rwy picture was getting bigger in slow spurts as the >wind gusted, but it was fairly stable and not to hard on the bumps, then on >mid to short final the rwy pic just started getting flatter faster than it >was getting bigger. I finally noticed that I had dialed all the power in >and >it was still getting flatter. So I started yanking flaps up when I >apparently punched through the shear layer and it was all I could do to not >go zipping on by the rwy. > >I now realize that I have had no real training in my repertoire on how to >recognize this, how to get out of it, etc. My instincts were to bail flaps >and turn towards lower ground/downwind, much like getting out of a riptide, >but I now realize that this could have kept me in it, in this situation. I >also was severely deluded in that it can occur very quickly but gradually >such that you don't feel a vector change, like I had imagined. > >This might be a common thing for that runway, but I can assure you I was >not >prepared to suddenly be at full power in a climb attitude going down in a >180 hp fixed pitch RV close to the ground. The lack of ability to feel the >change by anything other than a strangely changing runway picture was very >illusive, and I now consider myself to be very lucky to have pushed through >it having not recognized and turned out of it early on. > >I would love to hear anybody elses thoughts on what's the best way to get >out of this, how to recognize it earlier etc. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:13:51 AM PST US From: "Pat Hatch" Subject: Re: RV-List: Wind shear --> RV-List message posted by: "Pat Hatch" Wheeler, I can tell you how we train for wind shear in the Gulfstream jets if that might help. We practice in the simulator all the time. They have various actual scenarios programed into the sim, like the DC-10 accident at DFW. You get to experience the visual, some of the motion, and get the cues for what it looks like. The way they teach it is anytime you see something that doesn't look right or feel right, add full power, rotate to the stick shaker and do not change any configuration. It is pretty dramatic, sometimes you crash, sometimes you make it out, depends on your technique, how soon you start the recovery, how smooth you are. How does this translate to the RV's? One technique might be: add full power, rotate to Vx, do not raise flaps until out of the situation. Pat Hatch RV-4 RV-6 RV-7 QB (Building) Vero Beach, FL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wheeler North" Subject: RV-List: Wind shear > --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North > > Folks, > > I wanted to take a few moments to start a discussion about a wind shear > incident that occured to me on the way to OSH this July. Cy, you might also > be interested in this topic as a future article, although I wouldn't > recommend using any of my drool as I really don't know much about it. > > In fact, that's the problem I had with it. I have always heard of it, know > it can be horizontal or vertical or both, and have always kinda thought of > it as a slamming kind of event that one easily gets made aware of and is > always very bad bad bad. > > But it happened going into Santa Fe NM on rwy 02 I think it was. The big > black things with sparkys underneath were around the area but not anything > close to IMC. The wind was stright down the rwy at 15-20 kts. > > Basically on final the rwy picture was getting bigger in slow spurts as the > wind gusted, but it was fairly stable and not to hard on the bumps, then on > mid to short final the rwy pic just started getting flatter faster than it > was getting bigger. I finally noticed that I had dialed all the power in and > it was still getting flatter. So I started yanking flaps up when I > apparently punched through the shear layer and it was all I could do to not > go zipping on by the rwy. > > I now realize that I have had no real training in my repertoire on how to > recognize this, how to get out of it, etc. My instincts were to bail flaps > and turn towards lower ground/downwind, much like getting out of a riptide, > but I now realize that this could have kept me in it, in this situation. I > also was severely deluded in that it can occur very quickly but gradually > such that you don't feel a vector change, like I had imagined. > > This might be a common thing for that runway, but I can assure you I was not > prepared to suddenly be at full power in a climb attitude going down in a > 180 hp fixed pitch RV close to the ground. The lack of ability to feel the > change by anything other than a strangely changing runway picture was very > illusive, and I now consider myself to be very lucky to have pushed through > it having not recognized and turned out of it early on. > > I would love to hear anybody elses thoughts on what's the best way to get > out of this, how to recognize it earlier etc. > > Post to me as well as the list as I'm would like to include y'all's comments > in an article for our local chapter newsletter. > > thx > W > wnorth@sdccd.net > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:29:27 AM PST US From: a flyer Subject: Re: RV-List: Wind shear --> RV-List message posted by: a flyer Wheeler, it sounds like you flew under a microburst. They are not uncommon in the dry, mountain west, especially in the afternoon. Basically, a shaft of virga (rain that evaporates in the dry air, before reaching the ground) cools the air with the evaporation, and creates a column of cold air that "falls" to the ground. High in the air, the column of air will cause quite a downdraft, for a minute or so as you fly through it. Closer to the ground, the column of air causes an area of winds that blow away from it, as the falling column impacts the ground. So, as you fly on final toward the microburst, you have a headwind, and your ground speed is reduced. Then you fly into the falling column itself, and you lose some airspeed, and are in a downdraft (full power now). Then you fly out of the downdraft, but into an area of tailwinds (still full power). As indicated by its name, micro burst, it can be a small, concentrated area, and the whole cycle can happen in 30 seconds on final. This phenomenon has brought down many airplanes...hard landings in 172, and full blown crashes in airliners (imagine waiting for your engines to spool up while you are falling). Denver International Airport has had an experiment going on for the last couple of years with a huge array of sensors to detect microbursts, and provide automated warning to incoming and outgoing airliners. There have been many articles in the flying mags over the years complete with good graphics, etc. It is something to watch for as you fly in the dry mountain areas, and the afternoons are the worst time. Best thing you can do in our country is be at your destination by noon. John Huft RV8 Pagosa Springs, CO (100 nm north of Santa Fe) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wheeler North" Subject: RV-List: Wind shear > --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North > > Folks, > > I wanted to take a few moments to start a discussion about a wind shear > incident that occured to me on the way to OSH this July. Cy, you might also > be interested in this topic as a future article, although I wouldn't > recommend using any of my drool as I really don't know much about it. > > In fact, that's the problem I had with it. I have always heard of it, know > it can be horizontal or vertical or both, and have always kinda thought of > it as a slamming kind of event that one easily gets made aware of and is > always very bad bad bad. > > But it happened going into Santa Fe NM on rwy 02 I think it was. The big > black things with sparkys underneath were around the area but not anything > close to IMC. The wind was stright down the rwy at 15-20 kts. > > Basically on final the rwy picture was getting bigger in slow spurts as the > wind gusted, but it was fairly stable and not to hard on the bumps, then on > mid to short final the rwy pic just started getting flatter faster than it > was getting bigger. I finally noticed that I had dialed all the power in and > it was still getting flatter. So I started yanking flaps up when I > apparently punched through the shear layer and it was all I could do to not > go zipping on by the rwy. > > I now realize that I have had no real training in my repertoire on how to > recognize this, how to get out of it, etc. My instincts were to bail flaps > and turn towards lower ground/downwind, much like getting out of a riptide, > but I now realize that this could have kept me in it, in this situation. I > also was severely deluded in that it can occur very quickly but gradually > such that you don't feel a vector change, like I had imagined. > > This might be a common thing for that runway, but I can assure you I was not > prepared to suddenly be at full power in a climb attitude going down in a > 180 hp fixed pitch RV close to the ground. The lack of ability to feel the > change by anything other than a strangely changing runway picture was very > illusive, and I now consider myself to be very lucky to have pushed through > it having not recognized and turned out of it early on. > > I would love to hear anybody elses thoughts on what's the best way to get > out of this, how to recognize it earlier etc. > > Post to me as well as the list as I'm would like to include y'all's comments > in an article for our local chapter newsletter. > > thx > W > wnorth@sdccd.net > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:30 AM PST US From: "David Burton" Subject: Re: RV-List: Wind shear --> RV-List message posted by: "David Burton" >it happened going into Santa Fe NM on rwy 02 I think it was. I suspect that the 7000' elevation may have played some part in this. I don't know where your home airport is.... mine is at sea level. Maybe Brian Denk would like to chime in on this. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:41:16 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: dynon engine monitor From: "Frazier, Vincent A" --> RV-List message posted by: "Frazier, Vincent A" Not that I wouldn't want an HSI, but I, for one, am anxiously looking forward to the Dynon engine monitor. I can't believe the price of the ones on the market now.... over $3000 for a bunch of thermocouples and pressure sensors. Gasp! I think the folks at Dynon have a sound business plan going for them if they can get an EM to the market for a reasonable price... anything less than $2000 IMHO. Vince do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:50:21 AM PST US From: "Dana Overall" Subject: RV-List: PC Flight Systems. --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" This may be a viable stand alone backup for me to go along with my Dynon and Grand Rapids. I really would like to pitch these round gauges. Does anyone on the list have the pcflightsystems egyro stand alone IPAQ? If so, how do you like it? The idea of having a second totally separate, battery backup artificial horizon with airspeed and altitude (albeit, coming from a GPS) is a little interesting. Striving to be all glass!! Dana Overall Richmond, KY RV-7 slider/fuselage Finish kit ordered!! Buying Instruments http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:56:04 AM PST US From: "lucky macy" Subject: Re: RV-List: Wind shear --> RV-List message posted by: "lucky macy" From the you got to be ready for anything department: While doing touch and goes on a very calm and dark night in a C-172 at a towered airport with separate ground and air freqs, there was a citation jet at the runup area (he was there before I came into the pattern and there was no comm that I heard from/to him) with his exhaust pointed down the runway (I discovered later). I also later learned he was doing full power runups to test engines which were just worked on. About 30 to 50 feet above the runway on final, the "bottom fell out" from underneath the runway and the student pilot passenger and I thought we were going to pancake in. At the last possible moment, we cleared through the jet blast and it felt like a hand came up under the wings and pushed them up just enough to make it a rough landing vs. the crash we were preparing for. I had gone to full throttle during the final decent and as a result was at take off speed in no time and ended up leaving the ground. I decided to continue up as everything felt normal again and looked normal. It felt like how a really bad wind shear might be described but how could that be on a beautiful night? As I was trying to figure out how to ask tower about what just occured and what they knew of it while on downwind, another piston plane was taking off me and called up during takeoff to say he almost got completely blown off the runway and barely got off the ground. He literally said it was the strangest feeling he ever had in an airplane. I had to agree with him on that one! Tower immediately calls over to the citation and asks them nicely to turn the jet around a little bit so the exhaust wouldn't go towards the active. What would you do? lucky do not archive >From: "RV_8 Pilot" >Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: Wind shear >Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 06:58:56 -0500 > >--> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" > >Thanks for sharing that interesting story with us, Wheeler. I've never >experienced anything that severe landing. I've got into pretty good >sinks/downdrafts near mountains and thunderstorm cells, but basically just >180'd out of them. > >when I'm landing (and teaching them) in gusty or questionable wind >siutuations, I recommend normal approach +5 or 10 on the airspeed. Not >very >sophisticated, but it gives a little additional energy to play with if >something like you experienced happens. > >To detect this, other than seeing airspeed fluctuations, I'd say your >eyeballs and maybe the VSI would be about the best way to recognize >excessive decent rate. VASI and glideslope would be helpful if >present/equipped. > >In hindsight, I wonder about pulling flaps though. I'd probably think >leaving them in (at least at a reasonable climb stetting) would be better. >If one smacks the ground, at least they'd have less groundspeed/energy. > >my 2 > >Bryan Jones -8 >Pearland, Texas > > >I wanted to take a few moments to start a discussion about a wind shear > >incident that occured to me on the way to OSH this July. Cy, you might >also > >be interested in this topic as a future article, although I wouldn't > >recommend using any of my drool as I really don't know much about it. > > > >In fact, that's the problem I had with it. I have always heard of it, >know > >it can be horizontal or vertical or both, and have always kinda thought >of > >it as a slamming kind of event that one easily gets made aware of and is > >always very bad bad bad. > > > >But it happened going into Santa Fe NM on rwy 02 I think it was. The big > >black things with sparkys underneath were around the area but not >anything > >close to IMC. The wind was stright down the rwy at 15-20 kts. > > > >Basically on final the rwy picture was getting bigger in slow spurts as >the > >wind gusted, but it was fairly stable and not to hard on the bumps, then >on > >mid to short final the rwy pic just started getting flatter faster than >it > >was getting bigger. I finally noticed that I had dialed all the power in > >and > >it was still getting flatter. So I started yanking flaps up when I > >apparently punched through the shear layer and it was all I could do to >not > >go zipping on by the rwy. > > > >I now realize that I have had no real training in my repertoire on how to > >recognize this, how to get out of it, etc. My instincts were to bail >flaps > >and turn towards lower ground/downwind, much like getting out of a >riptide, > >but I now realize that this could have kept me in it, in this situation. >I > >also was severely deluded in that it can occur very quickly but gradually > >such that you don't feel a vector change, like I had imagined. > > > >This might be a common thing for that runway, but I can assure you I was > >not > >prepared to suddenly be at full power in a climb attitude going down in a > >180 hp fixed pitch RV close to the ground. The lack of ability to feel >the > >change by anything other than a strangely changing runway picture was >very > >illusive, and I now consider myself to be very lucky to have pushed >through > >it having not recognized and turned out of it early on. > > > >I would love to hear anybody elses thoughts on what's the best way to get > >out of this, how to recognize it earlier etc. > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:13:56 AM PST US From: Sam Buchanan Subject: Re: RV-List: Dynon Discussion --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan Dan Checkoway wrote: > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > > > Forget the airspeed indicator and fly your approach by the LED lights. > > Wow. Just one little bout with wind shear and you might regret you said > that... 8-) I know, I'm taking you too literally, but that's a pretty bold > statement. Hmmmm........ It has been my experience with the LRI that wind shear on approaches is detected MUCH quicker with the LRI than with the airspeed indicator. It is interesting to compare the LRI needle to the airspeed indicator on a gusty approach; the LRI is in constant motion as the airflow around the probe changes while the airspeed indicator is showing a more stable speed. I would think an AOA would be the superior instrument when encountering wind shear since it reacts quicker to the rapidly changing wind conditions. I too have learned to fly approaches, calm air or otherwise, by using the LRI as the primary instrument. Sam Buchanan ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:01:15 AM PST US From: SportAV8R@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Dynon Discussion --> RV-List message posted by: SportAV8R@aol.com In a message dated 08/12/2003 6:33:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wnorth@sdccd.cc.ca.us writes: > During take off I have now had several high density altitude take offs > where > both airspeeds said go, but the AOA was still saying to much AOA for the > current airspeed so I gratefully left it on the runway a little longer. > Okay, time to admit confusion here... I am mystified as to why this would be so. I always thought the airspeed indicator was subject to density altitude errors equal in magnitude and direction to the density altitude effect on the wing's performance. In other words, I have assumed that an _indicated_ airspeed would give a reliable prediction of the wing's performance regardless of density altitude. As an aside (but also a corollary) I had assumed, without ever testing it myself, that in unaccelerated level flight at the aircraft service ceiling, the indicated airspeed would read a value very close to Vstall, showing that the wing, while actually moving significantly faster in terms of TAS, was seeing such thin air that it was at the critical AoA just maintaining altutude Tell me what I'm missing, somebody. -Bill B ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:37:24 AM PST US From: "Charles Rowbotham" Subject: Re: RV-List: EAA FORUM Fulton NY, NOW RV9 Flight Training, 9th RV Forum NY Sept. 12-13-14 --> RV-List message posted by: "Charles Rowbotham" Cy, Oswego airport, just NE of Syrcuse, NY Chuck >From: "Cy Galley" >Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com >To: >Subject: Re: RV-List: EAA FORUM Fulton NY, NOW RV9 Flight Training, 9th RV >Forum NY Sept. 12-13-14 >Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:17:38 -0500 > >--> RV-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" > >Sounds like a nice event BUT WHERE? I read thru your message but the >location wasn't to be found. > >Cy Galley >Editor, EAA Safety Programs >cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Subject: RV-List: EAA FORUM Fulton NY, NOW RV9 Flight Training, 9th RV >Forum >NY Sept. 12-13-14 > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: RV6160hp@aol.com > > > > Mark your calendars and plan to attend. > > September 12, 2003 Friday night fly in, cook out and camp out. The EAA >486 General meeting night too. > > September 13, 2003 Saturday technical seminars all day, meals provided >to >paid attendee's. Then a nice dinner banquet with a presentation. This >year Mr. Kirk House, ex-Director Curator of the Glenn Cirtiss Museum will >talk about the books on Glenn he wrote, and how Glenn was the ultimate >Experimenter! > > September 14, 2003 Sunday AM our great pancake breakfast and perhaps a >coordinated fly out for lunch, planes, weather and pilots willing. > > > > see us at www.eaachapter486.com > > > > We will be updating (correcting-there are ome errors now) our site soon >with the 2003 plans. Last year over 56+ RV's and 25 SPAM's flew in with >over 150 attendee's. > > > > This year we have (thank the man upstairs and VAN for the support) Mike >Seager and the Factory RV9, yes RV9 doing transitional RV flight >instruction >(which is filling up fast again this year so you builders who are close to >flight email Craig Warner at cwarner@twcny.rr.com ) > > > > I could go on...but you've been here before and get the picture...just >ask >some one who has been there the $40 (pre registered) is easily worth it. >Hope to See you all there. > > > > OH and Al and I plan to give rides this year Dammmmmit! You know my >RV? >ARE YOU GAME...you need to initiate requests to Piots on your own...don't >be >shy, many pilots waiting for the kind gesture-request!!!! > > > > Respectfully, > > David McManmon > > President EAA 486 > > RV6 Flying, Builder, Pilot N58DM > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:14:03 AM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Engine Builder --> RV-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" --> RV-List message posted by: "J. R. Dial" Anybody used America's Aircraft Engines, Inc. for new XP-360 engines and are you satisfied etc? I am ready to buy an engine and would appreciate past experience. Email me direct if you choose rather than clutter the list. Thanks Dick I know this is not an answer to the question you asked, but it seems like a good time to report how extremely pleased I am that I bought my engine from Aero Sport Power, often referred to on the list as Bart, the owner. It is a Superior IO-360-B1B, but the data plate says Aero Sport Power, not Superior. It has the Lightspeed ignition (flywheel sensor) on the right side and Airflow Performance fuel injection. It is set up for a constant speed prop. Otherwise it is stock. The thing that has pleased me so much so far is that is that I keep running across little things that they have done to make it easier for me. The Airflow Performance fuel injection came with Van's install kit including anodized filtered air box plate and throttle and mixture control brackets. The purge valve, an option with the Airfllow Performance fuel injection, was installed. The fuel pump and filter were in the box. The fire-sleeved prop governor hose was installed. And to top it off, the restrictor fitting for the oil pressure was already installed. It won't fly for a long time yet but I am really glad of my choice of engine builder. Terry RV-8A #80729 hooking up the engine Seattle ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:14:42 AM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: Re: RV-List: Avionics master relay --> RV-List message posted by: "Tim Bryan" I got the scoop on this relay from the av tech that installed it. A lister gave me information enough to track him down. (Thank You) The interesting part is the relay is a NC relay. When it is powered up via the Master relay it closes and prevents power from flowing to the av bus and then when the avionics master switch is turned on the relay is unpowered to power up the av bus. I have tested this to be true and was told it was to eliminate the relay from getting hot. ( must not be continuous duty) Questions: 1 - Does this eliminate the need for a diode? 2 - Is there a split second when the master relay comes on and power goes to the av bus before the av relay shuts it down? 3 - Is there any reason for this to be different? In your opinion, of course. Thanks Tim -------Original Message------- --> RV-List message posted by: Vanremog@aol.com In a message dated 8/11/2003 6:28:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time, tim@bryantechnology.com writes: > On the label there are two different numbers as follows: > - W-R/RBM (In bold) > -70-311224-5A > This relay is made by White-Rogers, so you could consult them for a wiring diagram or you could buzz it out yourself with an ohmmeter. My guess is that the two small terminals are for the primary coil and the two large terminals are the normally open (NO) switched contacts. The case is likely not electrically connected to anything. You would want to install a catch diode (1N4002) back biased across the primary coil to protect your switch. I would also guess that, since it is meant to be a continuous duty type relay, the primary coil resistance is around 16 ohms. -GV (RV-6A N1GV 642hrs) ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:32:55 AM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: Dynon Discussion --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > > > Forget the airspeed indicator and fly your approach by the LED lights. > > > > Wow. Just one little bout with wind shear and you might regret you said > > that... 8-) I know, I'm taking you too literally, but that's a pretty bold > > statement. > > It has been my experience with the LRI that wind shear on approaches is > detected MUCH quicker with the LRI than with the airspeed indicator. It No doubt. All I was saying is that if you're flying in conditions where wind shear and/or downdrafts are predictably present, the LRI should no longer be your "primary" resource, and airspeed again becomes critical. You might have all the lift in the world, but if you don't have an appropriately safe margin of airspeed (added specifically for the situation), then you might get into trouble. Yeah, I know, it's all tied into each other and you really can't have one without the other (airspeed without lift), all things being equal. All I'm suggesting is -- *still* use that airspeed indicator, whether you have LRI/AOA or not. Otherwise, why do you have it in the plane at all? DO NOT ARCHIVE )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:52:16 AM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: RV-List: longer screws for rocker box covers --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" I'm looking for a source for slightly longer rocker box cover screws. My understanding is that you need to build up a flat surface with washers in order to use an adel clamp for spark plug wires (the cover itself has an up-turned flange that would get in the way). I'm not sure if I can use the stock screws as-is, i.e. whether there would be enough thread left over after adding those washers and the clamp itself. Anyway, can somebody point me at a source for longer screws, if they exist? Thanks in advance, )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:56:29 AM PST US From: Sam Buchanan Subject: Re: RV-List: Dynon Discussion --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan Dan Checkoway wrote: > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > > > > > Forget the airspeed indicator and fly your approach by the LED lights. > > > > > > Wow. Just one little bout with wind shear and you might regret you said > > > that... 8-) I know, I'm taking you too literally, but that's a pretty > bold > > > statement. > > > > It has been my experience with the LRI that wind shear on approaches is > > detected MUCH quicker with the LRI than with the airspeed indicator. It > > No doubt. All I was saying is that if you're flying in conditions where > wind shear and/or downdrafts are predictably present, the LRI should no > longer be your "primary" resource, and airspeed again becomes critical. You > might have all the lift in the world, but if you don't have an appropriately > safe margin of airspeed (added specifically for the situation), then you > might get into trouble. > > Yeah, I know, it's all tied into each other and you really can't have one > without the other (airspeed without lift), all things being equal. > > All I'm suggesting is -- *still* use that airspeed indicator, whether you > have LRI/AOA or not. Otherwise, why do you have it in the plane at all? > I don't want to drag out this discussion beyond its usefulness, but I fail to follow your argument and am afraid it may be misleading to some who are new to the concept of "flying" an AOA indicator. Yes, it is very prudent to add a fudge factor to approach speeds to allow for the unexpected gust when flying in turbulence. But the airspeed indicator is not necessary for this allowance when using an AOA indicator. With the LRI, simply fly with the needle a bit higher into the green than usual; with the LED type indicators, fly a couple bars higher (I think it's higher) on the indicator. This will allow for the "gust factor" and still yield the superior performance of the AOA over a conventional airspeed indicator. Are you suggesting that the Navy-trained aviators chuck their AOA indicators and revert to the airspeed indicator when the wind starts blowing? As to why to even have an airspeed indicator--The LRI is useful only at airspeeds in the flap range. Besides, I need numbers to throw at C172 drivers when they start asking about RVs...... ;-) Sam Buchanan ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:08:00 AM PST US From: "Brian Denk" Subject: Re: RV-List: longer screws for rocker box covers --> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" om: "Dan Checkoway" >Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com >To: >Subject: RV-List: longer screws for rocker box covers >Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:50:19 -0700 > >--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > >I'm looking for a source for slightly longer rocker box cover screws. My >understanding is that you need to build up a flat surface with washers in >order to use an adel clamp for spark plug wires (the cover itself has an >up-turned flange that would get in the way). I'm not sure if I can use the >stock screws as-is, i.e. whether there would be enough thread left over >after adding those washers and the clamp itself. > >Anyway, can somebody point me at a source for longer screws, if they exist? > >Thanks in advance, >)_( Dan >RV-7 N714D >http://www.rvproject.com Just bend the tabs on the Adel clamps a bit so they nest down over the lip of the cover. Stock screws work fine. Brian Denk RV8 N94BD 345 hrs. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:44 AM PST US From: "Kyle Boatright" Subject: Re: RV-List: longer screws for rocker box covers --> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: RV-List: longer screws for rocker box covers > --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > > I'm looking for a source for slightly longer rocker box cover screws. My > understanding is that you need to build up a flat surface with washers in > order to use an adel clamp for spark plug wires (the cover itself has an > up-turned flange that would get in the way). I'm not sure if I can use the > stock screws as-is, i.e. whether there would be enough thread left over > after adding those washers and the clamp itself. > > Anyway, can somebody point me at a source for longer screws, if they exist? > > Thanks in advance, > )_( Dan > RV-7 N714D > http://www.rvproject.com Dan, IIRC, these are simply coarse threaded 5/16 screws. You could amost certainly get a similar screw at the local hardware store. I bought some through Van's (they provide a few in the baffle hardware kit, I simply ordered a few more). The odd thing is that the screws I got from Van's (which have phillips heads) tend to back out over time, and the ancient slotted ones that came with my engine core don't back out... Go figure. KB ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:00:30 AM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: RV-List: LRI/AOA, airspeed --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > Are you suggesting that the Navy-trained aviators chuck their AOA > indicators and revert to the airspeed indicator when the wind starts > blowing? No, 'course not. I'm just saying that they're not ignoring their airspeed either. 8-) The way it strikes me, hearing you guys boast (maybe that's the wrong term) about how you can fly approaches solely by reference to the LRI/AOA is like saying you can ditch the DG or compass on an ILS approach as long as you keep the CDI needle centered. All I'm saying is be smart and fly safely. Hey, just curious. What failure modes do these LRI/AOA indicators have, and what are the symptoms? Again, just curious...not trying to pick on 'em. DO NOT ARCHIVE )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:10:55 AM PST US From: Scott Bilinski Subject: RE: RV-List: Engine Builder --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski Your forgot to mention that it comes with Alt and light weght starter also!! I needed a very expensive fitting that i could not find anywhere. i called them up and they sent me one free. In my book they (AeroSport Power) are the best. At 09:13 AM 8/13/03 -0700, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" > > >--> RV-List message posted by: "J. R. Dial" > > > Anybody used America's Aircraft Engines, Inc. for new XP-360 >engines and are you satisfied etc? I am ready to buy an engine and would >appreciate past experience. Email me direct if you choose rather than >clutter the list. > Thanks > Dick >I know this is not an answer to the question you asked, but it seems like a >good time to report how extremely pleased I am that I bought my engine from >Aero Sport Power, often referred to on the list as Bart, the owner. It is a >Superior IO-360-B1B, but the data plate says Aero Sport Power, not Superior. >It has the Lightspeed ignition (flywheel sensor) on the right side and >Airflow Performance fuel injection. It is set up for a constant speed prop. >Otherwise it is stock. The thing that has pleased me so much so far is that >is that I keep running across little things that they have done to make it >easier for me. The Airflow Performance fuel injection came with Van's >install kit including anodized filtered air box plate and throttle and >mixture control brackets. The purge valve, an option with the Airfllow >Performance fuel injection, was installed. The fuel pump and filter were in >the box. The fire-sleeved prop governor hose was installed. And to top it >off, the restrictor fitting for the oil pressure was already installed. It >won't fly for a long time yet but I am really glad of my choice of engine >builder. >Terry >RV-8A #80729 hooking up the engine >Seattle > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:51:15 PM PST US From: Al Mojzisik Subject: RV-List: LRI/AOA --> RV-List message posted by: Al Mojzisik (BIG SNIP) >Note: I spent a few minutes talking to Al Mojzisik of InAir >Instruments, one of the two vendors selling LRI systems. Al showed >me an add-on aural warning unit that he plans to have on the market >soon. It apparently (I hope I've got this right) can be added to >existing LRI installations to give an aural warning as the stall is >approached. This info isn't yet on their web site. > >http://www.liftreserve.com/ >(Snip) >Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) >Ottawa, Canada >http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/ Kevin, Yes I was displaying a prototype system at Oshkosh this year that will give you a green LED when flying above the trip settings that you set on your LRI and then it will change to a yellow LED and give you an audible warning in your headset and then five marks lower on your LRI gauge will change to a red LED and give you another audible warning. These points are exactly the width of the white arc on the LRI gauge. The pilot will be able to set these warnings points with the simple push of a small button on the LED panel with a paper clip but they will always be five marks apart. The display will be about .5" tall and about 1.5" wide and about 1/8" thick with the wire going out the back so that it can either be inset in the panel or simply use Velcro to stick it to the panel. The details are still being worked out, however it will be a first class installation. The magic controller box is 2" X 3.25" X 1.125" and will simply "T" into the air lines between the probe and gauge. The unit will run on anything from 5 to 34 volts (9v battery or 12v-24v aircraft electrical system.) and can be placed almost anywhere in the aircraft. Current owners of LRI's purchased from InAir Instruments will be offered these annunciators at a discount initially. I hope to have units available by the end of this year if testing goes smoothly. Sam Buchanan has agreed to Beta Test one of the first units since I know he will be unbiased and won't hold back about criticism. This electronic annunciator will not be available without the gauge. I would strongly recommend that it not be installed without the gauge since the gauge offers so much useful information when you learn to fly it. Another thing we are working on is a 2.25" gauge that will display almost as large as the current LRI but will fit in a standard 2.25" hole on your panel. I hope to have these available by the end of the year also. Again current LRI owners of record will have these available at a discount first if they choose to exchange gauges from the current format. We have no plans for a pure LED LRI since I still believe that flying the needle is the way to go. Simple and trouble free and totally stand alone as a system. When everything else spills electrons, your LRI will still be there to get you down safely when you need it most! As a side note we are working on a new upgraded website thanks to another RV-Lister. (Thanks Mark) I'm sorry if I offend anyone with this company information on the RV-List and will refrain from any further promotion of the LRI here. AL Al Mojzisik InAir Instruments LLC Lift Reserve Indicator (614) 890-6301 http://www.liftreserve.com/ ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:35:55 PM PST US From: Sam Buchanan Subject: Re: RV-List: LRI/AOA, airspeed --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan Dan Checkoway wrote: > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > The way it strikes me, hearing you guys boast (maybe that's the wrong term) > about how you can fly approaches solely by reference to the LRI/AOA is like > saying you can ditch the DG or compass on an ILS approach as long as you > keep the CDI needle centered. Yep, "boast" is definitely the wrong term. And, the comparison you make between using an AOA indicator and ignoring all directional instruments on an approach is faulty and irrelevant. In none of my posts on this subject did I state that the LRI was the only instrument available to me while flying an approach in turbulent air. I merely stated that after becoming very familiar with the LRI, it is the *primary* instrument used to determine desired speed on final. I suspect that the CDI is also the primary instrument used by most IFR pilots when flying an ILS approach unless something happens to cause them to suspect the validity of the CDI. > > All I'm saying is be smart and fly safely. Is the implication that pilots who use an AOA indicator as a primary instrument are stupid and flying unsafely? ;-) > > Hey, just curious. What failure modes do these LRI/AOA indicators have, and > what are the symptoms? Again, just curious...not trying to pick on 'em. Good question. The only "AOA" system I have first-hand experience with is the LRI. It is an extremely simple unit, basically a differential pressure gauge that is ram-air driven by a blade-type pitot that is mounted on the bottom surface of the wing. The only failure mode I see is either a plugged port on the blade, a blade that has been damaged between flights (the system is calibrated by adjusting the angle of the pitot blade) or a failed indicator. Preflight includes looking at the index marks on the pitot to insure it has not been disturbed, and during takeoff, the LRI and airspeed indicators are crosschecked to make sure no gross errors are occurring. I must admit that I then assume the indicator will work properly the remainder of the flight. However, I also perform a crosscheck with the airspeed indicator a couple of times during the pattern to make sure that nothing crazy has happened to the LRI. Dan, I certainly appreciate and support your right to not be an AOA fan, and your prejudice against the AOA systems is very evident. :-) But.......I think if you flew with one for awhile......you would like it. I need to clarify a statement I made in an earlier post. I said that the LRI only works while in the flap range of speeds. That is not technically correct. In what most of us would consider routine flight ops, once we exceed the white arc, the LRI needle is pegged in the green. However, if a high-G stall occurred, the needle *should* drop back down to indicate the loss of lift. I say *should*, because I have never done a 4-G stall in my plane. Ok, so I'm a wimp.... Sam Buchanan (looking forward to testing Al's new audio add-on) LRI installation here: http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/journal/liftreserve.htm ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:40:08 PM PST US From: Rquinn1@aol.com Subject: RV-List: RVA Training --> RV-List message posted by: Rquinn1@aol.com A few months ago a RV builder who is also a CFI sent a message that he would consider helping RV6A builders become aquatinted with their new aircraft and that he could travel to the site to provide this help. If I remember correctly he was out of Fort Worth. Can anyone provide us some guidance? Thanks Rollie & Rod RV6A. Almost ready ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:57:06 PM PST US From: Subject: RV-List: RV-4 seat templates --> RV-List message posted by: Does anyone have or have a link to a site that give the dimensions to make RV-4 seats? Regards, Tom Velvick RV-4 N53KT RV-6a N188KJ wiring ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:58:28 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: Cylindrical Facet fuel pump From: czechsix@juno.com --> RV-List message posted by: czechsix@juno.com Guys, I'm the one who originally posted the info on the 40007E pump, and as Mitch says the *primary* visible difference between the 478360 (which is widely used on low wing Pipers) and the 40007E is that the 40007E has larger 1/4" pipe threads on the inlet and outlet, which is compatible with the fuel lines and fittings used on the RV. The 478360 will undoubtedly work just fine, but you are adding two more unnecessary restrictions to the fuel flow which can be avoided with the 40007E. The other difference is that the "E" in 40007E designates that the pump has Facet's new and improved solid-state triggering device to actuate the pump, vs. the old mechanical contact points used in the 478360 series. While the reliability of the points has proven to be pretty good, the solid state control eliminates one more thing to wear out and fail. Everything else about the 40007E is identical to the 478360, including the inlet screen (which serves as a type of filter, but call it whatever you like :). As for gascolators, I won't go into the debate on whether or not they are needed or even beneficial since it's been discussed quite a bit in the archives. But I will inquire as to what kind of gascolator your friend is having trouble with? Many of the gascolators on spam cans have well-deserved bad reputations because of the crappy way in which they are secured (if the word "secure" can even be used in this context!). If that were my only option I'd fly without one too. But the Andair unit I have seems to me to be mechanically robust and pretty foolproof in its assembly and maintenance. I imagine the O-ring seal could eventually wear out, or leak if it were badly marred, but simple inspection before reassembly should alleviate any concerns about this causing a problem. If anyone has had problems with Andair's gascolator I'd sure like to hear about it... --Mark Navratil Cedar Rapids, Iowa RV-8A N2D painting.... Time: 02:55:16 PM PST US From: "Mitch Faatz" Subject: Re: RV-List: Cylindrical Facet fuel pump --> RV-List message posted by: "Mitch Faatz" >I've been using the Facet #478360 sold by Aircraft Spruce for three years. >It looks just like the one I had in my Cheetah. What's so different about >the #40007E? Is it the filter element, size, or what? The #478360 >doesn't have a filter; but, it does have a screen in the bottom. The >bottom comes off easily for maintenance and costs a about $70. The price >is certainly better! Alas, I don't have a gascolator on my RV. A friend >of mine did and is already having problems with it. I believe the main difference is that the 478360 has smaller 1/8" pipe threads. Mitch Faatz RV-6A Finish Kit Auburn, CA The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:15:46 PM PST US From: "Doug Rozendaal" Subject: Re: RV-List: LRI/AOA, airspeed (long) --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Checkoway" Snip > The way it strikes me, hearing you guys boast (maybe that's the wrong term) > about how you can fly approaches solely by reference to the LRI/AOA is like > saying you can ditch the DG or compass on an ILS approach as long as you > keep the CDI needle centered. > > All I'm saying is be smart and fly safely. Snip Airspeed is a terrible way to fly an approach, UNLESS..... you have a chart that gives a ref speed for every weight. In a big swept wing airplane Vref is based on weight and then cross checked to AOA to determine if someone is lying. The math determines the speed you need to get the AOA that you want for a landing. The AOA or LRI type instruments indicate the desired AOA directly regardless of weight, or Load factor, without gross weight or math errors. If all we did was take-off and land, we would definitely chose an AOA type instrument over airspeed. For navigation (and a few other key functions) we need airspeed, so we install it and then use it to land with because it is good enough in a small airplane landing on a big runway. And with some pilot skill we can use the seat of our pants to extract some additional performance. One could build a case, that with GPS and AOA, the DG and the Airspeed indicator are obsolete. ( that should stir the pot! Just kidding, sort of, there is still that whole Vne thing ) As to the whole discussion of the configuration changes LRI vs a true AOA indicator, on a simple airplane without slats or very complex flaps, these instruments are accurate enough for the application without correction for configuration. Your comment about failure modes is a fair one, That is the reason the big planes still figure a Vref even though they have AOA is just for that purpose. If the computed Vref doesn't correlate with the AOA, then someone is lying and then you figure out who is lying. The same would be true in an RV. If the LRI gets a bug in a port, it will lie to you. The same is true for your airspeed indicator. How do you backup your airspeed indicator when a bug flies up the Pitot tube in an RV? The seat of your pants is a good answer, but having said that, AOA is useful information if you want to extract the last little bit of performance out of your airplane. My biggest gripe about all these "gadgets" (Dynon, LRI, Rocky Enc etc) is that they draw attention inside the cockpit. My new RV-4 is a full of gadgets, and I am struggling to keep my head out. (of the cockpit!) Fly the airplane!!! But having said that, (much to the dismay of my friend LRI Al) when the heated pitot is available for the Dynon, I suspect I will buy one, because someday, the fire might go out and, I may need to extract the last ounce of lift from my airplane to put it in a really small spot....... . "Just because it is the way we know how to do it best, it is not necessarily the best way to do it........" Tailwinds, Doug Rozendaal ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 03:23:46 PM PST US From: "McFarland, Randy" Subject: RE: RV-List: RVA Training --> RV-List message posted by: "McFarland, Randy" On the training subject, is there a 6A or 7A out there in the Ft. Worth area that would be willing to give a 7A (60%) builder a ride over Thanksgiving weekend so I can see what I'm getting myself into? I had a short demo ride in the 9A so don't know how the 6A or 7A compares. Thx Randy McFarland N821RL reserved San Jose, Calif. ---------- From: Rquinn1@aol.com [SMTP:Rquinn1@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 2:38 PM To: rv-list@matronics.com Subject: RV-List: RVA Training --> RV-List message posted by: Rquinn1@aol.com A few months ago a RV builder who is also a CFI sent a message that he would consider helping RV6A builders become aquatinted with their new aircraft and that he could travel to the site to provide this help. If I remember correctly he was out of Fort Worth. Can anyone provide us some guidance? Thanks Rollie & Rod RV6A. Almost ready ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 03:59:42 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: N # change From: "David.vonLinsowe" --> RV-List message posted by: "David.vonLinsowe" I would like to change the N number on my RV. I've got the new number reserved. What's next? What form do I need and where do I get it? Thanks, Dave The need for (more) speed----> I'm sure the new # will make it faster :-) ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 04:03:53 PM PST US From: "Nick N" Subject: RE: RV-List: RVA Training --> RV-List message posted by: "Nick N" The one I know of is in Mesquite. Ben Johnson is flying a -6a. http://mesquiteaviation.net/aircraft-rental.htm I haven't flown with them, so no personal experience. YMMV. Nick -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rquinn1@aol.com Subject: RV-List: RVA Training --> RV-List message posted by: Rquinn1@aol.com A few months ago a RV builder who is also a CFI sent a message that he would consider helping RV6A builders become aquatinted with their new aircraft and that he could travel to the site to provide this help. If I remember correctly he was out of Fort Worth. Can anyone provide us some guidance? Thanks Rollie & Rod RV6A. Almost ready ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 04:22:23 PM PST US From: dmedema@att.net Subject: RV-List: Left over parts! --> RV-List message posted by: dmedema@att.net I'm doing final assembly of my -6A after 11+ years of construction. One thing I've noticed is that I have left over hardware. Part of this may be from getting hardware for parts of the kit that I didn't get such as the tip-up canopy and the tailwheel. In any case, I seem to have a lot of drilled bolts and castellated nuts. The question is: did I forget to put them someplace? Working from memory, here are all the places I used drilled bolts/castellated nuts: Engine mount to fuselage Rudder/brake pedals Rudder cables to rudder Main wing rear spar attach Fuel tank to fuse mount (don't think this is in the plans though) I'll do a thorough check of the plans, but I can't fathom where all the drilled bolts should/could be used. They include various lengths of both AN3 and AN4 bolts including two approximately 3 inch AN4 bolts. Can anybody add to my list for a -6A with sliding canopy? Thanks, Doug Medema RV-6A N276DM reserved, hope to do 1st engine start on Friday! ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 04:45:13 PM PST US From: "Jim Nolan" Subject: RV-List: Avionics for Sale --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Nolan" Listers, After upgrading my panel, I have a few items for sale. I have a VAL 760 Com radio that was removed last month that works great. I have a Bendix King KN53 w/GS that works great, looks new and was removed last month. I also have a Flybuddy Loran that I bought from a guy, never seen it operate but it looks good. All the radios come with trays and wires marked. The KN53 was hooked to a KI209A head. The pinouts for the wiring hookup ought to be worth something. If anyone needs one or all of these items, e-mail me off the list. Let me know how much you want to give and I'll let you know if I'll part with it for that much. Thanks Jim Nolan N444JN ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 05:11:04 PM PST US From: RV6160hp@aol.com Subject: RV-List: VULTURES formation inbound - FLAPJACK Squadron ESCORT call to arms!!! re: Fulton NY 9th RV forum --> RV-List message posted by: RV6160hp@aol.com VULTURES be advised..... OK were gonna try to meet up with you from Oswego Co. and local CNY group. We figure HHHeck you can't have all the FUN!!!!! Damm it! Flapjack 1 and 2 are mustering our ranks to see if we can meet with you at Branford PA.... 8 to 8:30am Saturday Sept 13 AM. KFZY, Oswego County Airport, Fulton NY, 9th annual RV forum again praying for VFR will certianly be the RV highlight for builders, wanna be's and pilots................. be there or be plain.....and without planes!!! ( Joseph Czachorowski feel free to email me to coordinate I am not sure I have your email address right ) Regards David McManmon RV6 Flyer-Builder-Pilot N58DM Call sign: Flapjack2 OH and President, EAA 486 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 05:27:32 PM PST US From: "J. R. Dial" Subject: RE: RV-List: Left over parts! --> RV-List message posted by: "J. R. Dial" AN4 approx 3" probably for the sticks where they attach to the mixer and the holes have bushings in them. I have extra hardware too and have had to buy some I did not get or lost. DO NOT ARCHIVE -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dmedema@att.net Subject: RV-List: Left over parts! --> RV-List message posted by: dmedema@att.net I'm doing final assembly of my -6A after 11+ years of construction. One thing I've noticed is that I have left over hardware. Part of this may be from getting hardware for parts of the kit that I didn't get such as the tip-up canopy and the tailwheel. In any case, I seem to have a lot of drilled bolts and castellated nuts. The question is: did I forget to put them someplace? Working from memory, here are all the places I used drilled bolts/castellated nuts: Engine mount to fuselage Rudder/brake pedals Rudder cables to rudder Main wing rear spar attach Fuel tank to fuse mount (don't think this is in the plans though) I'll do a thorough check of the plans, but I can't fathom where all the drilled bolts should/could be used. They include various lengths of both AN3 and AN4 bolts including two approximately 3 inch AN4 bolts. Can anybody add to my list for a -6A with sliding canopy? Thanks, Doug Medema RV-6A N276DM reserved, hope to do 1st engine start on Friday! ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 06:44:27 PM PST US From: "Dana Overall" Subject: Re: RV-List: LRI/AOA, airspeed (long) --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" Gang this post will serve no purpose at all, but this thread has been extremely useful. Thanks Dana Overall Richmond, KY RV-7 slider/fuselage Finish kit ordered!! Buying Instruments http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 06:46:13 PM PST US From: "RV6 Flyer" vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, NorCal-rvlist@yahoogroups.com, AZ_RVList@yahoogroups.com Subject: RV-List: SoCAL RV RendezVous --> RV-List message posted by: "RV6 Flyer" Want to give everyone an advance notice of the upcoming SoCAL RV RendezVous on Saturday 1 November 2003 at Cable Airport (CCB, http://www.cableairport.com) Upland, California. Want to get the word out and have as many RVs show up as possible. Any suggestions on FREE advertising is welcome off list. Posted message to EAA and AOPA yesterday. Gary A. Sobek "My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell, 1,349 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA http://SoCAL_WVAF.rvproject.com ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 07:04:18 PM PST US From: Wheeler North Subject: RV-List: AOA --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North Ken and all, thank you. I do agree an aural warning would be a nice feature, as would one that produces various aural tones for various G levels during a loop etc. But I disagree with the implied value discussion due to possible inaccuracies from pressure types or fuselage types of AOA sensors. The whole idea is to calibrate any of them such that the plane won't stall in any flight condition while in the yellow or green. This doesn't require spaceship orbital trajectory levels of sensitivity, all it needs is repeatability. And just like any other installation within an aircraft each installation needs to be thoroughly tested (and calibrated if needed) before certifying for continued use in that aircraft. It also gives one a great opportunity to go out and practice a whole lot of stalls. Although manufacturers may produce simple calibration routines, one still needs to do a full set of every kind of stall you can imagine to verify that it won't drop in the yellow/green in your installation. I currently have the D-10 high up on the panel, in the top middle of a standard "six" layout and have found the AOA presentation fairly easy to land my view on when going from inside to outside. Now that I'm used to it making it bigger wouldn't improve its usefulness to me as its such a simple display. And my eyes are definately on the engineer side of pocket protector blind. My thought would be for them to manufacture the Audio Unit as an add on unit, with an in/out pass through connector for the PC data serial port, a volume knob and one output lead over to the audio panel. Then make it programmable for various types of in flight alerts such as, "Warning Will Robinson - Why is the little screen all brown? Eject, Eject, But take me with you..." That would be very useful and would allow the consumer to develop their system modularly as well as make it easier for retro add ons. (not sure if they are listening as they are probably busy catching up on orders, so will bcc this their way as food for future disgestion) W do not archive ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 07:26:35 PM PST US From: "Emrath" Subject: RV-List: Lost Contact --> RV-List message posted by: "Emrath" One of the posters herein answered me directly about a need I have for the hose connecting the Governor Adapter to the front of the engine and I've lost the email. I believe the first name was Mark. Will you please contact me again? Thanks, Marty in Brentwood TN Do not Archive. ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 07:40:31 PM PST US From: Wheeler North "'rv-list@matronics.com'"@matronics.com Subject: RE: RV-List: Wind shear --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North Dan and all, thanks for the feed back, What the event really brought home to me was "OK, I figured it out, I know what's wrong, but I'm at the end of my training, now what do I do???" And I suspect I'm not the only one who can say this about windshear. Its seems the airline guys get good training on it though. I have had several airline pilots responses that were very good, both agreed that one should not change configuration or flight direction, just add power. The thought seems to be maximize lift, doing anything other than full power will reduce lift. Plus if one does hit, max power landing attitude is not a bad choice for reducing impact damage. This is very contrary to what my instincts were saying which was "Go into something bad, turn around ASAP and get out." Some of the precurser indications seem to be any high winds, T-cells, virago, abnormal power settings on descent when atis says its calm on the ground or anything else that indicates significant wind gradient across altitude or locations such as GPS ground speed vs airspeed, compared to several local ATIS/AWOS. Then if these exist carry more speed, and go around early, for anything unusual. Also I do remember the Flight Guide having a comment about this being possible at Santa Fe, and that may have put me in a greater state of alert, but that dosen't change the fact that I really didn't know what was the best reaction to implement once in it. W -----Original Message----- From: Dan Checkoway [mailto:dan@rvproject.com] Subject: Re: RV-List: Wind shear Sounds more like downdrafts rather than wind shear, although they're usually closely related proximity-wise. I think the only sane recommendation I can come up with is never to fly when there are T-storms within 100nm. )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wheeler North" Subject: RV-List: Wind shear > --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North > > Folks, > > I wanted to take a few moments to start a discussion about a wind shear > incident that occured to me on the way to OSH this July. Cy, you might also > be interested in this topic as a future article, although I wouldn't > recommend using any of my drool as I really don't know much about it. > > In fact, that's the problem I had with it. I have always heard of it, know > it can be horizontal or vertical or both, and have always kinda thought of > it as a slamming kind of event that one easily gets made aware of and is > always very bad bad bad. > > But it happened going into Santa Fe NM on rwy 02 I think it was. The big > black things with sparkys underneath were around the area but not anything > close to IMC. The wind was stright down the rwy at 15-20 kts. > > Basically on final the rwy picture was getting bigger in slow spurts as the > wind gusted, but it was fairly stable and not to hard on the bumps, then on > mid to short final the rwy pic just started getting flatter faster than it > was getting bigger. I finally noticed that I had dialed all the power in and > it was still getting flatter. So I started yanking flaps up when I > apparently punched through the shear layer and it was all I could do to not > go zipping on by the rwy. > > I now realize that I have had no real training in my repertoire on how to > recognize this, how to get out of it, etc. My instincts were to bail flaps > and turn towards lower ground/downwind, much like getting out of a riptide, > but I now realize that this could have kept me in it, in this situation. I > also was severely deluded in that it can occur very quickly but gradually > such that you don't feel a vector change, like I had imagined. > > This might be a common thing for that runway, but I can assure you I was not > prepared to suddenly be at full power in a climb attitude going down in a > 180 hp fixed pitch RV close to the ground. The lack of ability to feel the > change by anything other than a strangely changing runway picture was very > illusive, and I now consider myself to be very lucky to have pushed through > it having not recognized and turned out of it early on. > > I would love to hear anybody elses thoughts on what's the best way to get > out of this, how to recognize it earlier etc. > > Post to me as well as the list as I'm would like to include y'all's comments > in an article for our local chapter newsletter. > > thx > W > wnorth@sdccd.net > > ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 07:43:38 PM PST US From: "John Starn" Subject: Re: RV-List: AOA --> RV-List message posted by: "John Starn" We tried to calibrate the AOA for stall break in HRII N561FS but had a problem with the 30 degree up angle and full power, no flaps. Tom quit at 14,700 as we didn't have OXY. Little humor guys...8*). We did set the AOA without pants/fairings using the gravity indication device. (ping ball ball) and checked after they were installed. Stall speeds were lower in all configurations so we reset AOA. Do Not Archive KABONG (GBA) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wheeler North" Subject: RV-List: AOA > ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 08:02:50 PM PST US From: Gert Subject: RV-List: Mike seager --> RV-List message posted by: Gert Hi Folks Looking for Mike Seager's email address. Gert -- is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 08:15:31 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Cabin Heat From: smoothweasel@juno.com --> RV-List message posted by: smoothweasel@juno.com Does anyone with a rv-4 know if passenger heat is needed or will one heat regester in the front be enough to heat the entire cockpit ? Joel Graber Brooksville MS finishing -4 The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 09:14:48 PM PST US From: N223RV@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Mike seager --> RV-List message posted by: N223RV@aol.com rv6cfi@vernonia.com -Mike Kraus N223RV RV-4 and trained with Mike in Oregon! ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 09:30:13 PM PST US From: Charles Brame Subject: RV-List: Wind shear --> RV-List message posted by: Charles Brame Sounds to me like you recognized a windshear/downdraft situation and did the correct thing - you didn't hit the ground. Back in my airline pilot days, we practiced unannounced windshears and downdrafts in the simulator, and our procedure was much like what you did. The first and trickiest part of the drill was situation recognition. A windshear would usually be preceded by a large fluctuation in airspeed. In most cases, the only perceived indication of a downdraft (microburst) would be a rapidly increasing rate of descent. The worst case was a large decrease in airspeed AND a rapidly increasing rate of descent. During any approach, it was our company procedure for the non-flying pilot to monitor the instruments and the VSI in particular. If the vertical descent rate exceeded 1000'/minute a callout (rate of descent) was required. If the rate of descent continued to increase, the callouts became frequent, loud and urgent. In the case of a large windshear, the callout was "WINDSHEAR" followed by the airspeed reading and a rate of descent call if necessary. In either situation, the required action by the flying pilot was to initiate a go-around, increase power to max, and rotate the nose up to what ever angle was required to keep from hitting the ground, dissipating airspeed in the process right down to stall speed if necessary. During any go around in the MD-80 we went from full flaps (40) to 15 flaps - little change in stall speed, but a great reduction in drag. I'm not sure of the flaps procedure in other big birds but suspect something similar. Our windshear/downdraft drills in the sim usually began while on final approach, configured for landing, at approach speed, and below 1000' AGL. We also did them on take off at varying speeds and altitudes. Any windshear/downdraft drill was a pass/fail exercise. Miss the ground, you passed. Hit the ground, you failed. It was always exciting. I never saw a serious windshear or downdraft situation in a real cockpit, but know of several guys that did and lived to talk about it. Practice makes perfect. Charlie Brame RV-6A N11CB San Antonio > Time: 11:27:14 PM PST US > From: Wheeler North > Wheeler.North@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Wind shear > > --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North > > Folks, > > I wanted to take a few moments to start a discussion about a wind shear > incident that occured to me on the way to OSH this July. Cy, you might also > be interested in this topic as a future article, although I wouldn't > recommend using any of my drool as I really don't know much about it. > > In fact, that's the problem I had with it. I have always heard of it, know > it can be horizontal or vertical or both, and have always kinda thought of > it as a slamming kind of event that one easily gets made aware of and is > always very bad bad bad. > > But it happened going into Santa Fe NM on rwy 02 I think it was. The big > black things with sparkys underneath were around the area but not anything > close to IMC. The wind was stright down the rwy at 15-20 kts. > > Basically on final the rwy picture was getting bigger in slow spurts as the > wind gusted, but it was fairly stable and not to hard on the bumps, then on > mid to short final the rwy pic just started getting flatter faster than it > was getting bigger. I finally noticed that I had dialed all the power in and > it was still getting flatter. So I started yanking flaps up when I > apparently punched through the shear layer and it was all I could do to not > go zipping on by the rwy. > > I now realize that I have had no real training in my repertoire on how to > recognize this, how to get out of it, etc. My instincts were to bail flaps > and turn towards lower ground/downwind, much like getting out of a riptide, > but I now realize that this could have kept me in it, in this situation. I > also was severely deluded in that it can occur very quickly but gradually > such that you don't feel a vector change, like I had imagined. > > This might be a common thing for that runway, but I can assure you I was not > prepared to suddenly be at full power in a climb attitude going down in a > 180 hp fixed pitch RV close to the ground. The lack of ability to feel the > change by anything other than a strangely changing runway picture was very > illusive, and I now consider myself to be very lucky to have pushed through > it having not recognized and turned out of it early on. > > I would love to hear anybody elses thoughts on what's the best way to get > out of this, how to recognize it earlier etc. > > Post to me as well as the list as I'm would like to include y'all's comments > in an article for our local chapter newsletter. ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:30 PM PST US From: "aronsond" Subject: Re: RV-List: Mike seager --> RV-List message posted by: "aronsond" Mike Seager E-mail Address(es): rv6cfi@hotmail.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gert" Subject: RV-List: Mike seager > --> RV-List message posted by: Gert > > Hi Folks > > Looking for Mike Seager's email address. > > Gert > -- > is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 > > > > > ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 10:30:05 PM PST US From: Leland Subject: Re: RV-List: Wind shear --> RV-List message posted by: Leland Speaking of wind shear and Dynons, one of the Salesmen for Blue Mountain claims that their EFIS is superior to the Dynon unit because the Dynon unit's AI depends on airspeed, and the Dynon unit can give a false reading in wind shear. I wonder if this is just smoke or if there is substance to the claim. Leland in Pleasanton Firewall forward in an RV9A ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 10:50:11 PM PST US From: Vanremog@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Avionics master relay --> RV-List message posted by: Vanremog@aol.com In a message dated 8/13/2003 9:15:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time, tim@bryantechnology.com writes: > I got the scoop on this relay from the av tech that installed it. A lister > gave me information enough to track him down. (Thank You) > > The interesting part is the relay is an NC relay. When it is powered up via > the Master relay it closes and prevents power from flowing to the av bus and > then when the avionics master switch is turned on the relay is unpowered to > power up the av bus. I have tested this to be true and was told it was to > eliminate the relay from getting hot. ( must not be continuous duty) > > Questions: > 1 - Does this eliminate the need for a diode? This is an odd arrangement IMO, but it will work. If the relay is NC as you say, then when you turn ON your Avionics Master switch, you actually are opening the circuit to the primary coil, the coil flux field collapses and the arcing occurs at your switch contacts as they spread. Ergo, you need a diode to protect your switch. With a more normal relay arrangement, this arcing occurs as you turn OFF the Master switch. > 2 - Is there a split second when the master relay comes on and power goes > to > the av bus > before the av relay shuts it down? Yes, but its duration is only a fraction of a second. > 3 - Is there any reason for this to be different? Not if you don't mind being odd. -GV (RV-6A N1GV 642hrs) ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 10:53:24 PM PST US From: Vanremog@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Avionics master relay --> RV-List message posted by: Vanremog@aol.com In a message dated 8/13/2003 9:15:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time, tim@bryantechnology.com writes: > I got the scoop on this relay from the av tech that installed it. A lister > gave me information enough to track him down. (Thank You) > > The interesting part is the relay is an NC relay. When it is powered up via > the Master relay it closes and prevents power from flowing to the av bus and > then when the avionics master switch is turned on the relay is unpowered to > power up the av bus. I have tested this to be true and was told it was to > eliminate the relay from getting hot. ( must not be continuous duty) > > Questions: > 1 - Does this eliminate the need for a diode? This is an odd arrangement IMO, but it will work. If the relay is NC as you say, then when you turn ON your Avionics Master switch, you actually are opening the circuit to the primary coil, the coil flux field collapses and the arcing occurs at your switch contacts as they spread. Ergo, you need a diode to protect your switch. With a more normal relay arrangement, this arcing occurs as you turn OFF the Master switch. > 2 - Is there a split second when the master relay comes on and power goes > to > the av bus > before the av relay shuts it down? Yes, but its duration is only a fraction of a second. > 3 - Is there any reason for this to be different? Not if you don't mind being odd. -GV (RV-6A N1GV 642hrs)