Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:23 AM - Re: dutch roll (Kevin Horton)
2. 04:23 AM - Tinted canopies. (Dana Overall)
3. 05:03 AM - Overhead Approaches was:Radio Calls... (Doug Rozendaal)
4. 05:44 AM - Re: Tinted canopies. (mstewart@qa.butler.com)
5. 06:00 AM - Re: Overhead Approaches was:Radio Calls... (mstewart@qa.butler.com)
6. 06:36 AM - Re: Tinted canopies. (Glenn Brasch)
7. 06:48 AM - Re: Overhead Approaches was:Radio Calls... (Bill VonDane)
8. 07:26 AM - Re: Tinted canopies. (glenn.williams@businessacft.bombardier.com)
9. 08:01 AM - Great Paint and painting website (P M Condon)
10. 08:23 AM - Re: Radio Calls... (P M Condon)
11. 08:49 AM - Re: Radio Calls... (James E. Clark)
12. 09:32 AM - Aileron skins (Ken Simmons)
13. 09:32 AM - gasoline seasonal blending (SportAV8R@aol.com)
14. 09:45 AM - dutch rolls (rpmiller)
15. 09:51 AM - Re: Radio Calls... (RV_8 Pilot)
16. 09:53 AM - Re: Radio Calls... (mstewart@qa.butler.com)
17. 10:44 AM - Re: Radio Calls... (Laird Owens)
18. 11:28 AM - Re: Breather vent (HCRV6@aol.com)
19. 12:15 PM - Grounding (Nebr RV-8)
20. 12:30 PM - 007 (Wheeler North)
21. 12:35 PM - Re: Radio Calls, pattern ops, training (Brian Denk)
22. 12:37 PM - Re: Grounding (Brian Denk)
23. 12:57 PM - flea market supplier?? (Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club)
24. 01:09 PM - Re: flea market supplier?? (Jeff Point)
25. 01:20 PM - Re: Grounding ()
26. 01:36 PM - Overhead pattern ( was: Radio Calls...) (Phil Birkelbach)
27. 02:29 PM - Re: Radio Calls... (Clayton Henderson)
28. 03:02 PM - Re: Overhead pattern ( was: Radio Calls...) (mstewart@qa.butler.com)
29. 03:33 PM - Re: Canopy decks...slider (Alex Peterson)
30. 03:53 PM - Re: Re: Radio Calls... (Gilbert Alexander)
31. 04:03 PM - Re: Radio Calls... (Clinchy, Dave)
32. 04:06 PM - Re: Overhead pattern ( was: Radio Calls...) (Dean Pichon)
33. 04:16 PM - Re: Grounding (Paul Besing)
34. 07:45 PM - Re: flea market supplier?? (Gert)
35. 08:01 PM - Dynon remote Mag sensor installed! (Doug Rozendaal)
36. 08:03 PM - Tuned Exhaust for O-360? (N223RV@aol.com)
37. 08:28 PM - Re: flea market supplier?? (Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club)
38. 08:29 PM - Re: 007 (Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club)
39. 08:31 PM - Re: Overhead pattern ( was: Radio Calls...) (Doug Rozendaal)
40. 08:36 PM - Re: flea market supplier?? (Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club)
41. 10:12 PM - Re: Radio Calls... (sipherrv@juno.com)
42. 10:12 PM - Re: Radio Calls... (rv6tc)
Message 1
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--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorto1537@rogers.com>
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic
>Club" <sisson@consolidated.net>
>
>From the FBI freedom of information report. Flight 007 was shot down by Soviet
>pilot Lt. Col. Osipovich on Sept 1, 1983.
>
>It alledgedly spent about 10 minutes until it went into the Sea of
>Japan at the
>speed of sound.
>
>The fuselage was not found on a mountain. It has never been found.
>
>Dutch Rolls..... Hmmmmm
The accident that Wheeler described was almost certainly Japan
Airlines Flight 123. The rear pressure bulkhead failed at a spot
where a repair had been made. The cabin air escaping from the large
hole in the pressure bulkhead effectively inflated the vertical tail
and blew it off, severing lines from all four hydraulic systems. The
aircraft flew around in a severe Dutch roll oscillation with no
flight controls for about 32 minutes, eventually crashing into the
side of Mt. Osutaka.
There is an excellent account of this accident in Air Disaster, Vol.
2, by MacArthur Job.
--
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
Message 2
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| Subject: | Tinted canopies. |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" <bo124rs@hotmail.com>
I don't some searching around in the archives and have communicated off list
with some listers concerning a darker canopy than the Van's standard canopy.
For reference, the stock canopy allows 76% light penetration. The medium
offered is #2514 and allows 59% penetration. Two listers have both told me
when they got their 2514 they thought Van's had sent them the stock canopy
until they held it, or a piece, side by side with the stock. All
respondants liked the tint of the medium and have no adverse night flying
thoughts or experiences.
I can't find anyone in the archives that has a darker canopy the the 2514.
I am looking at a bronze/smoke 2404 with 49% penetration to go with my
spartan gold stripping/black. Anybody out there with anything darker than
59% care to talk? I'm sorry but I don't remember the person's name with
the beautiful red 8 with the really, really dark canopy that posted
something here about his paint job..........the one at Oshkosh this year.
Send me something off list if you do not see this as beneficial to all.
I have to make a decision by the beginning of the week. The shop is only a
couple hours from my house so I am just going to drive and pick my canopy up
instead of having it drop shipped or shipped to Van's and supplied with my
finish kit.
Dana Overall
Richmond, KY
RV-7 slider/fuselage, Imron black, "Black Magic"
Finish kit ordered!! Buying Instruments. Hangar flying my Dynon.
http://rvflying.tripod.com
do not archive
http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/reach_emoticon
Message 3
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| Subject: | Overhead Approaches was:Radio Calls... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr@petroblend.com>
There are lots of good reasons for using and practicing Overhead approaches.
Certainly those doing overheads need to be considerate of those using square
patterns.
An Overhead approach is a great tool to use and to practice because it is
the best way to accomplish a deadstick landing. Glide over the point of
intended landing at a known altitude, do a decending 360 and land.
Also it is the best way to break up formations and get a group of airplanes
on the ground in a short period of time.
In a blind airplane like a Stearman or a WWII fighter it is the only way you
can see where you are going or what is happening on the runway you are
landing on. A square pattern in a Mustang at slow speed in traffic is
dangerous. Imagine blindly driving up the downwind at 175 mph? No thanks.
NOTHING you can do will better prepare you for an engine out landing than
regular practice of 360 overheads at idle power.
Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
Message 4
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| Subject: | Tinted canopies. |
tests=AWL,BAYES_00,NO_REAL_NAME,ORIGINAL_MESSAGE,
USER_IN_WHITELIST
autolearn=ham version=2.53
--> RV-List message posted by: mstewart@qa.butler.com
Dana,
I'll bet Mark's chek F-1 is as dark as they come. I would contact him
directly. He has folks ordering dark tints. Looks great on that long nosed
f-1. Shoot him an e-mail at teamrocket.com
Mike Stewart
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: Dana Overall [mailto:bo124rs@hotmail.com]
Subject: RV-List: Tinted canopies.
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" <bo124rs@hotmail.com>
I don't some searching around in the archives and have communicated off list
with some listers concerning a darker canopy than the Van's standard canopy.
For reference, the stock canopy allows 76% light penetration. The medium
offered is #2514 and allows 59% penetration. Two listers have both told me
when they got their 2514 they thought Van's had sent them the stock canopy
until they held it, or a piece, side by side with the stock. All
respondants liked the tint of the medium and have no adverse night flying
thoughts or experiences.
I can't find anyone in the archives that has a darker canopy the the 2514.
I am looking at a bronze/smoke 2404 with 49% penetration to go with my
spartan gold stripping/black. Anybody out there with anything darker than
59% care to talk? I'm sorry but I don't remember the person's name with
the beautiful red 8 with the really, really dark canopy that posted
something here about his paint job..........the one at Oshkosh this year.
Send me something off list if you do not see this as beneficial to all.
I have to make a decision by the beginning of the week. The shop is only a
couple hours from my house so I am just going to drive and pick my canopy up
instead of having it drop shipped or shipped to Van's and supplied with my
finish kit.
Dana Overall
Richmond, KY
RV-7 slider/fuselage, Imron black, "Black Magic"
Finish kit ordered!! Buying Instruments. Hangar flying my Dynon.
http://rvflying.tripod.com
do not archive
http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/reach_emoticon
Message 5
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| Subject: | Overhead Approaches was:Radio Calls... |
tests=AWL,BAYES_01,NO_REAL_NAME,ORIGINAL_MESSAGE,
USER_IN_WHITELIST
autolearn=ham version=2.53
--> RV-List message posted by: mstewart@qa.butler.com
Virtually all of my last 800 hours of landings have been overheads. I call
them out "Tower good afternoon, RV N686MS, 6m SE, inbound for the initial
(optional direction for the break here), Papa (information)"
Or, for even more fun if the pattern is quiet, or if your tower guys are
known to clear the pattern for your fun activities:
"Tower good-afternoon, RV N686MS, 6m SE, inbound, low approach, carrier
break, (optional direction for the break here), Papa (information)"
I got this last one approved Monday landing in class B Baltimore. With a 737
landing parallel. That pilot made a comment about me having "too much fun!"
I could hardly argue.
I always do initials when I can for:
1. Fun factor
2. Safety. As Doug stated. You can not overemphasize this. There are
countless reasons why this is the safest way to land
3. Fun Factor
4. The on-lookers really do enjoy watching the 3g pitchup, power drop, rip
around landing of the low approach carrier break landings.
5. Did I mention the fun factor?
I can't think of any tower that did not know what I was talking about.
Mike Stewart
-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Rozendaal [mailto:dougr@petroblend.com]
Subject: RV-List: Overhead Approaches was:Radio Calls...
--> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr@petroblend.com>
There are lots of good reasons for using and practicing Overhead approaches.
Certainly those doing overheads need to be considerate of those using square
patterns.
An Overhead approach is a great tool to use and to practice because it is
the best way to accomplish a deadstick landing. Glide over the point of
intended landing at a known altitude, do a decending 360 and land.
Also it is the best way to break up formations and get a group of airplanes
on the ground in a short period of time.
In a blind airplane like a Stearman or a WWII fighter it is the only way you
can see where you are going or what is happening on the runway you are
landing on. A square pattern in a Mustang at slow speed in traffic is
dangerous. Imagine blindly driving up the downwind at 175 mph? No thanks.
NOTHING you can do will better prepare you for an engine out landing than
regular practice of 360 overheads at idle power.
Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Tinted canopies. |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Glenn Brasch" <gbrasch@earthlink.net>
I believe the tinted canopy you saw at OSH this year is made by "Todd's
Canopy". Glenn in Arizona, -9A wings ordered.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dana Overall" <bo124rs@hotmail.com>
Subject: RV-List: Tinted canopies.
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" <bo124rs@hotmail.com>
>
> I don't some searching around in the archives and have communicated off
list
> with some listers concerning a darker canopy than the
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Overhead Approaches was:Radio Calls... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
Thanks for all the input on this! I fully intend to master this procedure
for exactly the reasons Doug outlined below... I often fly formation with
other RV, and if I ever have to land dead stick this is how I would
accomplish it...
Regarding the message:
"We had one person do these maneuvers at our private airpark, and it caused
great confusion to anyone else in the pattern -- especially since she
would break to the left or right depending on whim.... really confusing
others in the pattern, especially with a slow biplane. At a pilot's
meeting, we could find no "operational need", so the practice has been
stopped...."
I believe that if the overhead is done properly, NO ONE else in the patter
will be affected by you at all.....and I HATE to hear when someone decides
that someone else doesn't "NEED" to do something and either tries to
succeeds in stopping them...
None of us NEED to fly anyway, right?
no offence, just my opinion...
-Bill VonDane
RV-8A
www.vondane.com
www.creativair.com
www.epanelbuilder.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr@petroblend.com>
Subject: RV-List: Overhead Approaches was:Radio Calls...
--> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr@petroblend.com>
There are lots of good reasons for using and practicing Overhead approaches.
Certainly those doing overheads need to be considerate of those using square
patterns.
An Overhead approach is a great tool to use and to practice because it is
the best way to accomplish a deadstick landing. Glide over the point of
intended landing at a known altitude, do a decending 360 and land.
Also it is the best way to break up formations and get a group of airplanes
on the ground in a short period of time.
In a blind airplane like a Stearman or a WWII fighter it is the only way you
can see where you are going or what is happening on the runway you are
landing on. A square pattern in a Mustang at slow speed in traffic is
dangerous. Imagine blindly driving up the downwind at 175 mph? No thanks.
NOTHING you can do will better prepare you for an engine out landing than
regular practice of 360 overheads at idle power.
Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Tinted canopies. |
09/04/2003 08:53:04 AM
--> RV-List message posted by: glenn.williams@businessacft.bombardier.com
I believe you can order the tinted canopies from Van's even though he does
not advertize them. I recall someone saying they ordered a tinted canopy
from them several years ago. I know that Todd's sells them as well.
Regards
Glenn Williams
do not archive
Message 9
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| Subject: | Great Paint and painting website |
--> RV-List message posted by: P M Condon <pcondon@mitre.org>
http://www.autobodystore.com/cgi-bin/config.pl?index
Try this URL. You can purchase painting related goodies and get
advice.The daily chat section from a paint web site(see above URL) is
very much like Matts (Matronics) there is a search capability so all you
painting,primer and paint related questions can be researched.
I also purchased my hobbyair breathing system, DA special finish paint
sander and Devilbiss gravity spray gun from them.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Radio Calls... |
--> RV-List message posted by: P M Condon <pcondon@mitre.org>
There is a major safety issue here. When using localized or specialized
jargon, or terminology that only make sense to a select few then the
folks not in on the secret language or jargon are unaware of the
event(s) taking place around them. I have been at airports where
military wantabees or others used this specialized jargon only to cause
major problems and confusion in the pattern. I guess that they felt cool
using the jargon, the other pilots in the pattern felt otherwise.....
In reply to:
--> RV-List message posted by: "rv6tc" <rv6tc@earthlink.net>
Bill,
"Experimental xxx, Initial." You can include a mileage, as in
"Experimental
xxx, 2 mi Initial." In the Air Force, the "standard" initial was 3 - 5
miles. If you are at a military, or a joint use field (ABQ, for
example)
realize that the overhead pattern altitude is usually published and is
500
feet above the rectangular altitude (sometimes 1,000' above). By the
way,
most controllers that I've ever dealt with are familiar with an
Overhead.
And none of the AF guys I know add the "360" to the title. In fact, the
other day, the pattern was a little crazy at Centennial (KAPA) and I
requested to break out of the 35 pattern and just report Initial for 28.
Worked like a charm. If the direction of the break is not published,
the
controller may ask which way you want to break. Also (AF, again) you
typically break from the threshold to the 3,000' mark. Midfield or
departure end breaks are not "standard" but can either be requested by
you
or the controller for spacing.
Hope that helps.
Keith Hughes
Parker, CO
T-38 IP, Capt, USAF emeritus
Message 11
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--> RV-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" <james@nextupventures.com>
Gil,
Not to be too picky but where does it say this? (See >>>> below) I just read
it and did not get " ... you should not ...". Maybe I missed something.
Want to know as we do it all the time at our uncontrolled field and have
done it at the nearby Towered airport with no problems.
James
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gil Alexander
> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 2:31 AM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Radio Calls...
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Gil Alexander <gilalex@earthlink.net>
>
> This little phrase from the AIM link below...
>
> "Overhead maneuver patterns are developed at airports where aircraft have
> an operational need to conduct the maneuver. "
>
>>>>>>>>>>> Says that you should not use this at an uncontrolled field
unless you
> specifically know that the operational need exists and a documented
> procedure also exists.
>
> We had one person do these maneuvers at our private airpark, and
> it caused
> great confusion to anyone else in the pattern -- especially since she
> would break to the left or right depending on whim.... really confusing
> others in the pattern, especially with a slow biplane. At a pilot's
> meeting, we could find no "operational need", so the practise has been
> stopped....
>
> However, it a tower is controlling it, go for it.....
>
> gil A
>
>
> At 10:31 PM 9/3/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> >--> RV-List message posted by: "Tom Gummo" <T.gummo@verizon.net>
> >
> >Bill,
> >
> >Check out
> >
> >http://www1.faa.gov/atpubs/AIM/Chap5/aim0504.html#5-4-24
> >
> >It has some info on overheads or your copy of the AIM.
> >
> >Feel free to ask me direct questions.
> >
> >Tom Gummo
> >t.gummo@verizon.net
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
> >To: <rv-list@matronics.com>; <rv8list@yahoogroups.com>
> >Subject: RV-List: Radio Calls...
> >
> >
> > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
> > >
> > > Can someone give me some example of how to properly call an
> "initial" and
> >a "360 Overhead"?
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > >
> > >
> > > Bill VonDane
> > > RV-8A
> > > www.vondane.com
> > > www.creativair.com
> > > www.epanelbuilder.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 12
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Ken Simmons" <ken@truckstop.com>
Working on the ailerons for my 8. Is there a top/bottom to the skins? They are
marked left and right, but no top and bottom. The only info I can find in the
plans is the outboard stiffener looks to be about an inch further from the outboard
rib than the inboard stiffener is from the inboard rib.
Thanks.
Ken
do not archive
The Internet Truckstop
The first and largest
freight matching
service on the
Intenet
______________ ______________ ______________ ______________
Sent via the KillerWebMail system at truckstop.com
Message 13
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| Subject: | gasoline seasonal blending |
--> RV-List message posted by: SportAV8R@aol.com
Anyone know when the refineries begin to switch over to winter gasoline
blends (with allegedly higher vapor pressure for easier starts)? I try to buy
all
the high-test I'm going to need for the upcoming year during the summer months
to avoid the possible vapor lock issues with winter blend mogas, but this
year in particular there is a financial incentive to wait until longer after
Labor Day for the inevitable price drop. Right now, high test is selling for
nearly what some FBO's discount their 100LL down to. I'd like to snag some better
prices for the '03-'04 fuel supply without buying any high vapor pressure
stuff, but not sure how late in the year I can still make the purchase.
Any ideas, besides the obvious one of calling a gasoline refinery and hoping
they will talk to me about putting their automotive product into my airplane?
Thanks.
-Bill B
Message 14
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--> RV-List message posted by: "rpmiller" <rpmiller@1usa.net>
I had an uncle who was on french leave in holland and stopped off at a bakery for
a dutch roll before going out to the seedier night spots where he imbibed certain
agents that resulted in a coupled discombobulated yawing rolling motion.
As he dutch rolled down the street he impacted a lamp post. While resting
in the gutter a couple of citizens noticed his condition and decided to take advantage,
dutch rolled. With no money he was late back to the ship and was in
dutch with the navy, who refused to acknowledge the dutch role in the whole
affair. My uncle, dutch, related this story while cross controlling in a rythmic
vomit inducing oscillation, that he assured me was the one true meaning of
dutch roll.
sorry, please please please do not archive
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Radio Calls... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" <rv_8pilot@hotmail.com>
Done properly with consideration and decent communication, there's no more
safety issue with overhead approaches than with any other approved maneuver.
Overhead approach is in the AIM and the calls aren't jargon - they're
proper. Else the tower folks might not participate quite so readily.
One thing that my buddies and I have found helpful if the pattern has a
couple of others flying is to make a little more descriptive calls, keeping
those in mind who might be ignorant of the maneuver. "123AB, flight of
four, 2 mile initial (straight in approach to) 17, overhead (break left turn
to midfield downwind, full stop)." This gets the point across. If we don't
think we can mix safely, we stay outside the pattern until we get spacing
from those in a "convenional" pattern, or we go elsewhere.
Blasting into the pattern with minimal calls and not spacing properly with
the "rectangular" pattern guys is unsafe. But in my 16 years flying, I've
yet to be cut off or offended by someone doing an overhead. Been cut off by
boneheads making non standard and even standard entries to rectangular
patterns plenty though.
We get no problems from the local Class D airport. They have no preference
as best I can tell, never missing a beat when we call as a flight requesting
the overhead.
Bottom line - consideration and looking for traffic are required with all
approaches.
Bryan Jones -8
Pearland, Texas
>There is a major safety issue here. When using localized or specialized
>jargon, or terminology that only make sense to a select few then the
>folks not in on the secret language or jargon are unaware of the
>event(s) taking place around them. I have been at airports where
>military wantabees or others used this specialized jargon only to cause
>major problems and confusion in the pattern. I guess that they felt cool
>using the jargon, the other pilots in the pattern felt otherwise.....
Fast, faster, fastest: Upgrade to Cable or DSL today!
https://broadband.msn.com
Message 16
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tests=AWL,BAYES_01,NO_REAL_NAME,ORIGINAL_MESSAGE,
USER_IN_WHITELIST
autolearn=ham version=2.53
--> RV-List message posted by: mstewart@qa.butler.com
You bring up an excellent point. I often hear towers, or myself, explaining
exactly what is about to happen to those who ask. It is a learning
experience for all when they are unsure, and it is explained. The "initial"
procedure is an FAA recognized maneuver, and those that don't know what it
is, should ask. As always, any pilot who is not exactly sure what's going on
around them, especially in a pattern, should key up and ask immediately.
I would not call people who use this terminology "military wannabees." As
this material is in the AIM, it should be somewhat familiar to all. And if
not they should key up and ask. Its not military jargon, its pilot jargon.
There should be no safety of flight issue using pilot jargon. And, if
explained well, it can be a valuable learning tool for pilots listening.
Like in these posts, I suspect there are some pilots noodling over the
increased safety of flight issues by utilizing this technique. It just might
save your butt one day, which is exactly what the military figured out many
moons ago. Good on em.
Mike Stewart
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: P M Condon [mailto:pcondon@mitre.org]
Subject: Re: RV-List: Radio Calls...
--> RV-List message posted by: P M Condon <pcondon@mitre.org>
There is a major safety issue here. When using localized or specialized
jargon, or terminology that only make sense to a select few then the
folks not in on the secret language or jargon are unaware of the
event(s) taking place around them. I have been at airports where
military wantabees or others used this specialized jargon only to cause
major problems and confusion in the pattern. I guess that they felt cool
using the jargon, the other pilots in the pattern felt otherwise.....
In reply to:
--> RV-List message posted by: "rv6tc" <rv6tc@earthlink.net>
Bill,
"Experimental xxx, Initial." You can include a mileage, as in
"Experimental
xxx, 2 mi Initial." In the Air Force, the "standard" initial was 3 - 5
miles. If you are at a military, or a joint use field (ABQ, for
example)
realize that the overhead pattern altitude is usually published and is
500
feet above the rectangular altitude (sometimes 1,000' above). By the
way,
most controllers that I've ever dealt with are familiar with an
Overhead.
And none of the AF guys I know add the "360" to the title. In fact, the
other day, the pattern was a little crazy at Centennial (KAPA) and I
requested to break out of the 35 pattern and just report Initial for 28.
Worked like a charm. If the direction of the break is not published,
the
controller may ask which way you want to break. Also (AF, again) you
typically break from the threshold to the 3,000' mark. Midfield or
departure end breaks are not "standard" but can either be requested by
you
or the controller for spacing.
Hope that helps.
Keith Hughes
Parker, CO
T-38 IP, Capt, USAF emeritus
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Radio Calls... |
--> RV-List message posted by: Laird Owens <owens@aerovironment.com>
I like flying the overhead because I can see all the traffic in the
pattern and enter with enough airspeed/altitude to make the runway
incase of engine failure.
I report 5 out and request the overhead. 99% of the time the tower
clears me for that and asks me to report a 1 mile initial, sometimes
restricted to an altitude 500' over the pattern altitude. After
reporting, he'll fit me in the pattern by having me break at some
point along the runway. If theres other traffic, I'll square it off
to fit into the pattern. If nobody is in the pattern, I'll do the
short 360.
I hate straight in's. I feel really vulnerable to an engine failure.
I end up 3 out, slow behind a 172 or something. If the motor coughs,
I'm dead.
The tower guys are really good to us RV's. I remember them once
saying over the freq that "We like you guys....you fly tight
patterns!" I don't know how many times I've be on initial, and
they'll tell the down wind traffic to extend and clear me #1. It
doesn't get any better than that.
P M Condon wrote:
>There is a major safety issue here. When using localized or specialized
>jargon, or terminology that only make sense to a select few then the
>folks not in on the secret language or jargon are unaware of the
event(s) taking place around them.
If a pilot doesn't understand the phraseology he hears in the
pattern, look it up in the aim, call the tower, or ask the pilot over
the freq. It's all part of the learning process.
Laird RV-6
SoCal
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Breather vent |
--> RV-List message posted by: HCRV6@aol.com
In a message dated 9/3/03 11:57:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, JusCash@aol.com
writes:
<< RV6 Flying again >>
Congratulations Cash, that was a quick recovery.
Do not archive
Harry Crosby
Pleasanton, California
RV-6, firewall forward
Message 19
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Nebr RV-8" <nebrrv8@earthlink.net>
The RV-8 is in the final stages. I am now running the wiring. If I use
the airframe for grounding my lights, fuel pump, etc. will I have a
noise problem? I am using Van's wiring kit for a starting point.
thanks
Jim Muegge
RV-8 wiring
Message 20
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--> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North <wnorth@sdccd.cc.ca.us>
Oops,
that was JAL Flight 123, not KAL Flight 007. They all tend to blend after so
many years, and so few meds.
Or was that too many meds???
http://www.airdisaster.com/special/special-jal123.shtml
do not archive
Time: 11:06:22 PM PST US
From: "Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club" <sisson@consolidated.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: dutch roll
--> RV-List message posted by: "Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club"
<sisson@consolidated.net>
From the FBI freedom of information report. Flight 007 was shot down by
Soviet
pilot Lt. Col. Osipovich on Sept 1, 1983.
It alledgedly spent about 10 minutes until it went into the Sea of Japan at
the
speed of sound.
The fuselage was not found on a mountain. It has never been found.
Dutch Rolls..... Hmmmmm
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Radio Calls, pattern ops, training |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
>Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 10:40:29 -0700
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: Laird Owens <owens@aerovironment.com>
>
>I like flying the overhead because I can see all the traffic in the
>pattern and enter with enough airspeed/altitude to make the runway
>incase of engine failure.
>
>I report 5 out and request the overhead. 99% of the time the tower
>clears me for that and asks me to report a 1 mile initial, sometimes
>restricted to an altitude 500' over the pattern altitude. After
>reporting, he'll fit me in the pattern by having me break at some
>point along the runway. If theres other traffic, I'll square it off
>to fit into the pattern. If nobody is in the pattern, I'll do the
>short 360.
>
>I hate straight in's. I feel really vulnerable to an engine failure.
>I end up 3 out, slow behind a 172 or something. If the motor coughs,
>I'm dead.
>
>The tower guys are really good to us RV's. I remember them once
>saying over the freq that "We like you guys....you fly tight
>patterns!" I don't know how many times I've be on initial, and
>they'll tell the down wind traffic to extend and clear me #1. It
>doesn't get any better than that.
>
This all brings to mind my two main concerns with modern pilot training: the
lack of spin training (not just spin awareness...but SPINS!!!) and the
teaching of bomber sized rectangular patterns for light single engine
aircraft. I've found myself in the midst of ridiculously large patterns
many times at my home base, with spam strung out all over the place. Long,
slow and low finals tighten up my nether regions in a big way. I learned to
fly via the Air Force Aero club, which always emphasized the need for
staying tight to the runway, being prepared for an engine out at any time,
then reduce power as needed. In this way, an engine failure is no big deal.
This training no doubt helped me greatly when my engine sputtered and
wheezed a few years ago in the RV. My gliding, circling descent to a
remarkably nice landing proved that overhead approaches WORK.
Brian Denk
RV8 N94BD
FOURTH annual due this month!
http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/reach_emoticon
Message 22
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Nebr RV-8" <nebrrv8@earthlink.net>
>
>The RV-8 is in the final stages. I am now running the wiring. If I use
>the airframe for grounding my lights, fuel pump, etc. will I have a
>noise problem? I am using Van's wiring kit for a starting point.
>
>thanks
>
>Jim Muegge
>RV-8 wiring
It's impossible to say positively yes or no. Best bet is to home run every
circuit to a common ground bus as near to the battery as practical.
Brian Denk
RV8 N94BD
Compare Cable, DSL or Satellite plans: As low as $29.95.
https://broadband.msn.com
Message 23
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| Subject: | flea market supplier?? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club" <sisson@consolidated.net>
do not archive
Does anyone remember the exact name and address of a Sun and Fun vender and also
he is at Oshkosh.
It was initials, something like B and B, B and D.??
At Sun and Fun he on the north side of one of the four display buildings in a large
tent. He sells new surplus hardware and has his stuff laid out real neat
and orderly.
There is usually a friendly lady taking the money, who appears to be his wife and/or
partner.
I need to order some stuff from them and would like the Phone number. Possibly
Oklahoma.
Thanks, Phil do not archive
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: flea market supplier?? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
B&B AIRCRAFT SUPPLIES 913-884-5930 AN HARDWARE, AIRCRAFT SURPLUS AND
LEATHER SEAT SKINS
Could be them. This is from the yeller pages.
Jeff Point
Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club" <sisson@consolidated.net>
>
>do not archive
>
>Does anyone remember the exact name and address of a Sun and Fun vender and also
he is at Oshkosh.
>It was initials, something like B and B, B and D.??
>At Sun and Fun he on the north side of one of the four display buildings in a
large tent. He sells new surplus hardware and has his stuff laid out real neat
and orderly.
>There is usually a friendly lady taking the money, who appears to be his wife
and/or partner.
>
>I need to order some stuff from them and would like the Phone number. Possibly
Oklahoma.
>
>Thanks, Phil do not archive
>
>
>
>
Message 25
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--> RV-List message posted by: <racker@rmci.net>
Fuel pump, nav/position lights, strobes, fuel pump, pitot tube are not
noise propogators and can be grounded locally on a metal airframe. Great
source for questions of this type are www.aeroelectric.com and the
Matronics aeroelectric list (same server as rv-list).
Rob Acker (RV-6, everything locally grounded except the above, no noise)
do not archive
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
>
>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: "Nebr RV-8" <nebrrv8@earthlink.net>
>>
>>The RV-8 is in the final stages. I am now running the wiring. If I use
>> the airframe for grounding my lights, fuel pump, etc. will I have a
>> noise problem? I am using Van's wiring kit for a starting point.
>>
>>thanks
>>
>>Jim Muegge
>>RV-8 wiring
>
>
> It's impossible to say positively yes or no. Best bet is to home run
> every circuit to a common ground bus as near to the battery as
> practical.
>
> Brian Denk
> RV8 N94BD
>
> Compare Cable, DSL or Satellite plans: As low as $29.95.
> https://broadband.msn.com
>
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Overhead pattern ( was: Radio Calls...) |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Phil Birkelbach" <phil@petrasoft.net>
>
> You bring up an excellent point. I often hear towers, or myself,
explaining
> exactly what is about to happen to those who ask. It is a learning
> experience for all when they are unsure, and it is explained. The
"initial"
> procedure is an FAA recognized maneuver, and those that don't know what it
> is, should ask. As always, any pilot who is not exactly sure what's going
on
> around them, especially in a pattern, should key up and ask immediately.
I have spent most of my flying carreer building an RV-7 and my AIM is at
home so I'll 'key up' and ask. What is an overhead, and why would one use
it? I think I have the general idea but don't know the details, and I want
to be sure.
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Canopy
http://www.myrv7.com
Message 27
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Clayton Henderson" <gsuit@eonet.net>
Bill,
I've heard all kinds of initial and overhead calls...and the controllers
seem to get the picture as long as you say something close. But, this
is how we were taught to do it in the late 90's when I was in flight
school in Kingsville, TX, and how most fleet Marine and Navy squadrons
do it.
"Tower, Devil 255 flight of two, initial, for the break" or "...for the
carrier" meaning 600' AGL Aircraft Carrier pattern. The airforce calls
it the overhead, I believe.
The tower typically responds, "Roger 255, number 1 for the carrier,
report the numbers." Meaning you're first in line to land, report back
to the tower when you arrive over the runway numbers at the approach
end.
Then, as the approach end numbers slide under the nose you say, "255,
numbers."...look over at your dash two all sucked in nice and tight,
give him the 'kiss-off' signal, and freakin' yank that sucker
around!!...all the while chopping throttle and dropping flaps (at the
appropriate speeds of course), and speed breaks, and the barn door, and
anything else you think might get you slowed down to gear speed by the
180 position. :) You started this thing at around 450kts!!!
Honestly, it's not as violent a maneuver as I'm making it sound. But
there is the unwritten rule of all fighter pilots. 'You might look like
hell anywhere else, but you better look good at the break..."
Anyway, if this doesn't paint the picture, I probably can go dig up my
old flight school manuals and give it to you verbatim.
Clayton Henderson
RV-7 Fuselage
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill VonDane
Subject: RV-List: Radio Calls...
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
Can someone give me some example of how to properly call an "initial"
and a "360 Overhead"?
Thanks!
Bill VonDane
RV-8A
www.vondane.com
www.creativair.com
www.epanelbuilder.com
Message 28
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| Subject: | Overhead pattern ( was: Radio Calls...) |
tests=AWL,BAYES_00,NO_REAL_NAME,ORIGINAL_MESSAGE,
QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,QUOTE_TWICE_1,USER_IN_WHITELIST
autolearn=ham version=2.53
--> RV-List message posted by: mstewart@qa.butler.com
Do not archive
Here is an overhead defined, for formation flying. It also pertains to a
single ship. You can also find some other discussions in the archives.
========= Copyright 1999-2001 Gregg Wilson and the Cathouse Gang
The overhead approach entry to an airport traffic pattern is the fastest,
most efficient method of handling flights in formation. It is also the
safest way to keep aircraft from becoming entangled with one another over
the airport. With this type of pattern entry all aircraft approaching the
field for landing enter an "initial"/upwind leg at a specified distance
(usually 1-3 miles) out on the extended centerline of the landing runway.
When they cross this point they are at pattern altitude and headed straight
in towards the runway. This is called "Initial".
At pattern altitude, you will be higher than traffic on base and final.
This allows the flight leader to set his power at cruise so that the other
members of the flight have plenty of power reserve with which to maintain
good formation and still carry sufficiently high airspeed to the field. A
respectably high airspeed in the break makes for a good-looking flight
breakup just in case anyone is watching (and they will be!).
At the designated position (usually over "the numbers"), the lead makes his
break 180 degrees to downwind. (The preferred method is a brisk roll to a
45-60 bank angle, followed by an equally brisk pull. This will result in
additional G's, which bleeds off airspeed to final-turn speed.)1 Other
members of the flight follow suit at the briefed interval.
As the flight rolls out on downwind, 2 should always line up on a flight
path outside of lead and behind him. Watch where lead rolls off "the perch"
(the point where lead starts his turn to final) and try to turn at the same
point. Both aircraft begin a 180 descending turn, in trail, this time to
final. Land on alternate sides of the runway; lead normally, but not always,
taking the downwind side leaving the upwind side for 2. It is recommended
that lead land slightly long to give 2 (and 3,4 if necessary) some extra
room.
Remember you are still a flight until the engines are shut down. At a
towered airport, a clearance to land for the flight includes all members of
the flight. No need for the wingman to obtain a separate landing clearance.
One note: The ATC definition of an overhead approach (see Cathouse Formation
Standards) indicates that the initial/pattern altitude is 500-feet above
normal pattern altitude. In my experience, this is not a big issue at
towered airports. I recommend coming in to both uncontrolled and towered
airports at normal pattern altitude. Be aware of this, however, in case the
tower controller queries you.
Wizz
1(In addition to the level break described above, a pitch up to pattern
altitude may be used if briefed, in which case the leader should have plenty
of extra airspeed on initial to allow for a snappy pull up.)
Copyright 1999-2001 Gregg Wilson and the Cathouse Gang
-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Birkelbach [mailto:phil@petrasoft.net]
Subject: RV-List: Overhead pattern ( was: Radio Calls...)
--> RV-List message posted by: "Phil Birkelbach" <phil@petrasoft.net>
>
> You bring up an excellent point. I often hear towers, or myself,
explaining
> exactly what is about to happen to those who ask. It is a learning
> experience for all when they are unsure, and it is explained. The
"initial"
> procedure is an FAA recognized maneuver, and those that don't know what it
> is, should ask. As always, any pilot who is not exactly sure what's going
on
> around them, especially in a pattern, should key up and ask immediately.
I have spent most of my flying carreer building an RV-7 and my AIM is at
home so I'll 'key up' and ask. What is an overhead, and why would one use
it? I think I have the general idea but don't know the details, and I want
to be sure.
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Canopy
http://www.myrv7.com
Message 29
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| Subject: | Canopy decks...slider |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@usjet.net>
> > Greetings Listers:
> >
> > Those of you who have done a slider on a 6 or 7....The Justice
> instructions indicate that the canopy decks F-6110 and F-6113
> should not be riveted on until the finish kit construction.
> I am ready to start fitting my roll-bar to the fuselage and
> was wondering if anyone had riveted them on regardless of
> what the Justice instructions say. I assume his concern was
> routing wires to the aft of the fuselage as well as running
> wires up to the panel from the wings. Seems to me I can
> accomplish those things with these decks riveted in.
> >
> > Am I missing something here?
The single best advice I ever got on building these planes is to never
rivet anything until you cannot proceed without doing so. If you can
fit the rollover bar with the decks clecoed on, then do so. You might
run wires, fuel tank vents, etc. in this example.
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
RV6-A N66AP 368 hours
www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Radio Calls... |
--> RV-List message posted by: Gilbert Alexander <gilalex@earthlink.net>
James ... it's in the section of the AIM talking about IFR procedures at control
tower airports. Check out the whole AIM section, and see what it covers.
The "operational need" is an exception.... and as an exception it needs to be documented.
Our airpark uses the AIM (the best general descriptive document available)as
a baseline, and developed our traffic patterns from it.
The particular biplane mentioned did not help matters by cutting in front of planes
already in the standard rectangular pattern, and then "dropping down" from
pattern height over mid-field in a overhead pattern to land first. To the people
in the pattern, this was extremely confusing and a safety hazard.
Our Aviation Committee decided that the AIM was the baseline and we did not have
an operational need - no formation flying at our field. Other non-controlled
fields that have formation flying at them have developed, and published, overhead
patterns.
Towered airports are no problem as long as the tower agrees.
At non-towered, are you interupting the flow of planes that are following the FAA
recommended procedures in the AIM? Does this become a safety/liability hazard.
(We actually own our strip)
gil A
-------Original Message-------
From: "James E. Clark" <james@nextupventures.com>
Subject: RE: RV-List: Radio Calls...
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" <james@nextupventures.com>
Gil,
Not to be too picky but where does it say this? (See >>>> below) I just
read
it and did not get " ... you should not ...". Maybe I missed something.
Want to know as we do it all the time at our uncontrolled field and have
done it at the nearby Towered airport with no problems.
James
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gil Alexander
> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 2:31 AM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Radio Calls...
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Gil Alexander <gilalex@earthlink.net>
>
> This little phrase from the AIM link below...
>
> "Overhead maneuver patterns are developed at airports where aircraft
have
> an operational need to conduct the maneuver. "
>
>>>>>>>>>>> Says that you should not use this at an uncontrolled field
unless you
> specifically know that the operational need exists and a documented
> procedure also exists.
>
> We had one person do these maneuvers at our private airpark, and
> it caused
> great confusion to anyone else in the pattern -- especially since she
> would break to the left or right depending on whim.... really confusing
> others in the pattern, especially with a slow biplane. At a pilot's
> meeting, we could find no "operational need", so the practise has been
> stopped....
>
> However, it a tower is controlling it, go for it.....
>
> gil A
>
>
> At 10:31 PM 9/3/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> >--> RV-List message posted by: "Tom Gummo" <T.gummo@verizon.net>
> >
> >Bill,
> >
> >Check out
> >
> >http://www1.faa.gov/atpubs/AIM/Chap5/aim0504.html#5-4-24
> >
> >It has some info on overheads or your copy of the AIM.
> >
> >Feel free to ask me direct questions.
> >
> >Tom Gummo
> >t.gummo@verizon.net
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
> >To: <rv-list@matronics.com>; <rv8list@yahoogroups.com>
> >Subject: RV-List: Radio Calls...
> >
> >
> > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
> > >
> > > Can someone give me some example of how to properly call an
> "initial" and
> >a "360 Overhead"?
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > >
> > >
> > > Bill VonDane
> > > RV-8A
> > > www.vondane.com
> > > www.creativair.com
> > > www.epanelbuilder.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
Message 31
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Clinchy, Dave" <clinchd@losrios.edu>
I'm loving this thread - I've heard this many times on the radio and
always wanted to try it. One more question: Is the "initial" done from a
predefined direction? Or is it done from whatever your approach
direction might happen to be?
Dave C
RV 7 Fuse
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clayton
Henderson
Subject: RE: RV-List: Radio Calls...
--> RV-List message posted by: "Clayton Henderson" <gsuit@eonet.net>
Bill,
I've heard all kinds of initial and overhead calls...and the controllers
seem to get the picture as long as you say something close. But, this
is how we were taught to do it in the late 90's when I was in flight
school in Kingsville, TX, and how most fleet Marine and Navy squadrons
do it.
"Tower, Devil 255 flight of two, initial, for the break" or "...for the
carrier" meaning 600' AGL Aircraft Carrier pattern. The airforce calls
it the overhead, I believe.
The tower typically responds, "Roger 255, number 1 for the carrier,
report the numbers." Meaning you're first in line to land, report back
to the tower when you arrive over the runway numbers at the approach
end.
Then, as the approach end numbers slide under the nose you say, "255,
numbers."...look over at your dash two all sucked in nice and tight,
give him the 'kiss-off' signal, and freakin' yank that sucker
around!!...all the while chopping throttle and dropping flaps (at the
appropriate speeds of course), and speed breaks, and the barn door, and
anything else you think might get you slowed down to gear speed by the
180 position. :) You started this thing at around 450kts!!!
Honestly, it's not as violent a maneuver as I'm making it sound. But
there is the unwritten rule of all fighter pilots. 'You might look like
hell anywhere else, but you better look good at the break..."
Anyway, if this doesn't paint the picture, I probably can go dig up my
old flight school manuals and give it to you verbatim.
Clayton Henderson
RV-7 Fuselage
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill VonDane
Subject: RV-List: Radio Calls...
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
Can someone give me some example of how to properly call an "initial"
and a "360 Overhead"?
Thanks!
Bill VonDane
RV-8A
www.vondane.com
www.creativair.com
www.epanelbuilder.com
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Overhead pattern ( was: Radio Calls...) |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dean Pichon" <DeanPichon@msn.com>
This is a great description. At what point in this cycle, and to what extent, should
one reduce power?
Thanks
----- Original Message -----
From: mstewart@qa.butler.com
Subject: RE: RV-List: Overhead pattern ( was: Radio Calls...)
--> RV-List message posted by: mstewart@qa.butler.com
Do not archive
Here is an overhead defined, for formation flying. It also pertains to a
single ship. You can also find some other discussions in the archives.
Copyright 1999-2001 Gregg Wilson and the Cathouse Gang
The overhead approach entry to an airport traffic pattern is the fastest,
most efficient method of handling flights in formation. It is also the
safest way to keep aircraft from becoming entangled with one another over
the airport. With this type of pattern entry all aircraft approaching the
field for landing enter an "initial"/upwind leg at a specified distance
(usually 1-3 miles) out on the extended centerline of the landing runway.
When they cross this point they are at pattern altitude and headed straight
in towards the runway. This is called "Initial".
At pattern altitude, you will be higher than traffic on base and final.
This allows the flight leader to set his power at cruise so that the other
members of the flight have plenty of power reserve with which to maintain
good formation and still carry sufficiently high airspeed to the field. A
respectably high airspeed in the break makes for a good-looking flight
breakup just in case anyone is watching (and they will be!).
At the designated position (usually over "the numbers"), the lead makes his
break 180 degrees to downwind. (The preferred method is a brisk roll to a
45-60 bank angle, followed by an equally brisk pull. This will result in
additional G's, which bleeds off airspeed to final-turn speed.)1 Other
members of the flight follow suit at the briefed interval.
As the flight rolls out on downwind, 2 should always line up on a flight
path outside of lead and behind him. Watch where lead rolls off "the perch"
(the point where lead starts his turn to final) and try to turn at the same
point. Both aircraft begin a 180 descending turn, in trail, this time to
final. Land on alternate sides of the runway; lead normally, but not always,
taking the downwind side leaving the upwind side for 2. It is recommended
that lead land slightly long to give 2 (and 3,4 if necessary) some extra
room.
Remember you are still a flight until the engines are shut down. At a
towered airport, a clearance to land for the flight includes all members of
the flight. No need for the wingman to obtain a separate landing clearance.
One note: The ATC definition of an overhead approach (see Cathouse Formation
Standards) indicates that the initial/pattern altitude is 500-feet above
normal pattern altitude. In my experience, this is not a big issue at
towered airports. I recommend coming in to both uncontrolled and towered
airports at normal pattern altitude. Be aware of this, however, in case the
tower controller queries you.
Wizz
1(In addition to the level break described above, a pitch up to pattern
altitude may be used if briefed, in which case the leader should have plenty
of extra airspeed on initial to allow for a snappy pull up.)
Copyright 1999-2001 Gregg Wilson and the Cathouse Gang
-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Birkelbach [mailto:phil@petrasoft.net]
Subject: RV-List: Overhead pattern ( was: Radio Calls...)
--> RV-List message posted by: "Phil Birkelbach" <phil@petrasoft.net>
>
> You bring up an excellent point. I often hear towers, or myself,
explaining
> exactly what is about to happen to those who ask. It is a learning
> experience for all when they are unsure, and it is explained. The
"initial"
> procedure is an FAA recognized maneuver, and those that don't know what it
> is, should ask. As always, any pilot who is not exactly sure what's going
on
> around them, especially in a pattern, should key up and ask immediately.
I have spent most of my flying carreer building an RV-7 and my AIM is at
home so I'll 'key up' and ask. What is an overhead, and why would one use
it? I think I have the general idea but don't know the details, and I want
to be sure.
Godspeed,
Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas
RV-7 N727WB (Reserved) - Canopy
http://www.myrv7.com
Message 33
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Paul Besing" <azpilot@extremezone.com>
If you do a really good job sheilding your wires (I prefer solder sleeves to
the pigtail method) you shouldn't have a problem. Commo headset wires
should have an open ground at one end, and as long as the shield is grounded
to the intercom or similar unit, it won't have a chance to pick up any
noise. I grounded my aeroflash strobes at the wingtip (two power supplies)
and ran the bundle with the wires going to my headset jacks. No problems.
Shielding is the key. As Brian said, I would ground most everything you can
at a single source (Bob Knuckoll's grounding blocks are great). But things
that aren't feasible shouldn't hurt.
Paul Besing
RV-6A Sold (Waiting on the RV-10)
http://www.lacodeworks.com/besing
Kitlog Pro Builder's Log Software
http://www.kitlog.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nebr RV-8" <nebrrv8@earthlink.net>
Subject: RV-List: Grounding
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Nebr RV-8" <nebrrv8@earthlink.net>
>
> The RV-8 is in the final stages. I am now running the wiring. If I use
> the airframe for grounding my lights, fuel pump, etc. will I have a
> noise problem? I am using Van's wiring kit for a starting point.
>
> thanks
>
> Jim Muegge
> RV-8 wiring
>
>
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: flea market supplier?? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Gert <gert@execpc.com>
Them are the nice people with the cheap wemac vents....
B&B Aircraft supplies
P.O. box 37
202 S. Center
Gardner, KS 66030
Dan & E.J. brown
fax 913-884-6533
Jeff Point wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
>
> B&B AIRCRAFT SUPPLIES 913-884-5930 AN HARDWARE, AIRCRAFT SURPLUS AND
> LEATHER SEAT SKINS
>
> Could be them. This is from the yeller pages.
>
> Jeff Point
>
> Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club wrote:
>
>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: "Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club" <sisson@consolidated.net>
>>
>>do not archive
>>
>>Does anyone remember the exact name and address of a Sun and Fun vender and also
he is at Oshkosh.
>>It was initials, something like B and B, B and D.??
>>At Sun and Fun he on the north side of one of the four display buildings in a
large tent. He sells new surplus hardware and has his stuff laid out real neat
and orderly.
>>There is usually a friendly lady taking the money, who appears to be his wife
and/or partner.
>>
>>I need to order some stuff from them and would like the Phone number. Possibly
Oklahoma.
>>
>>Thanks, Phil do not archive
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500
Message 35
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| Subject: | Dynon remote Mag sensor installed! |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr@petroblend.com>
Dynon update.
I recieved my mag sensor a couple weeks ago and finally last week I built a
wiring harness. I was soldered it up but did not have the Mag sensor
installed. I turned on the EFIS and the screen turned blue and nothing! Oh
S--- I thought I screwed up my wiring. I double checked everything and all
was well. I could not turn the unit off. Only a blue screen. I took out
the internal battery and thought maybe I could get a reboot. No luck, blue
screen.
I called Doug M. at Dynon and he said I probably EFDed the unit and to send
it back. I overnighted it Fri and got it back today. with Labor day, they
turned it in one day. More great service!!! I got it back without a
bill.... maybe one is coming???
Doug said the protection on the Mag sensor circuit is pretty low so you have
to be very careful taking static precautions. I told him I knew all about
condom precautions, but I did not know squat about computers. He said,
"that was a Dynamic activity and this is static." Becareful and UNPLUG YOUR
Dynon EFIS and Mag Sensor if you are working on the wiring!!!!
I mounted my Mag sensor on the shelf in the baggage of my -4. I did not
have a smart level so I got it as close as I could with a spirit level. I
took a cord off of an old mouse and wired that in for my serial port cable.
Think before you mount the sensor. I mounted the mag sensor over a screw
that holds the baggage bulkhead in so I will move it before I calibrate it.
I hooked it all up and it worked great! Without calibration the compass is
off no more than 7 degrees on any of the 4 cardinal headings. Dead on West
and North, about 5 off South and 7 off East.
The biggest problem so far is laptops. I don't have one so I borrowed one.
It did not have a serial port. USB only. So I borrowed another, I checked to
make absolutely sure it had a serial port! it did, I got to the hanger, got
all set up and went to plug in my floppy disc, No disc drive!! CD only!!!!
I will find a laptop! or a long cord for my desktop if I have too!
Anyway I continue to be happy with the Dynon, the heading mode seems to lag
just a bit. When turning to a heading it seems I might want to roll out just
a bit early... but only one quick flight so far. Hopefully I can find a
laptop, get it calibrated and then go try some approaches.
What a machine!!!!
Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
Message 36
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| Subject: | Tuned Exhaust for O-360? |
--> RV-List message posted by: N223RV@aol.com
I know most of us are using Vetterman exhaust, but I was wondering if there
is a tuned exhaust system available to fit in an RV-7 with an O-360?
Any ideas? Any word on performance? Price?
Thanks for any help!
-Mike Kraus
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: flea market supplier?? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club" <sisson@consolidated.net>
Thanks Jeff, I will check them out
Do not archive
Jeff Point wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
>
> B&B AIRCRAFT SUPPLIES 913-884-5930 AN HARDWARE, AIRCRAFT SURPLUS AND
> LEATHER SEAT SKINS
>
> Could be them. This is from the yeller pages.
>
> Jeff Point
Message 38
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club" <sisson@consolidated.net>
I think it is the years... They seem to fly by..... Phil
Do not archive
Wheeler North wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North <wnorth@sdccd.cc.ca.us>
>
> Oops,
>
> that was JAL Flight 123, not KAL Flight 007. They all tend to blend after so
> many years, and so few meds.
> Or was that too many meds???
>
> http://www.airdisaster.com/special/special-jal123.shtml
>
> do not archive
>
> Time: 11:06:22 PM PST US
> From: "Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club" <sisson@consolidated.net>
> Subject: Re: RV-List: dutch roll
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club"
> <sisson@consolidated.net>
>
> >From the FBI freedom of information report. Flight 007 was shot down by
> Soviet
> pilot Lt. Col. Osipovich on Sept 1, 1983.
>
> It alledgedly spent about 10 minutes until it went into the Sea of Japan at
> the
> speed of sound.
>
> The fuselage was not found on a mountain. It has never been found.
>
> Dutch Rolls..... Hmmmmm
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Overhead pattern ( was: Radio Calls...) |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr@petroblend.com>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Dean Pichon" <DeanPichon@msn.com>
>
> This is a great description. At what point in this cycle, and to what
extent, should one reduce power?
>
> Thanks
>
Dean
Since you asked,,,, In the Mustang I fly to a point which would be a 2
mile final at 500 ft above pattern alt. Call "Dumptruk traffic, Mustang 429
2 mile initial runway XX overhead approach left break"
proceed up initial level at 500 ft above pattern alt at about 220 kts low
criuse power, 27" 2300. over the touchdown point you break smartly to about
75 deg and pull to 3 Gs (the FAA says a break of less than 90 deg is not
aerobatic) power to 20" and start easing off on the bank and pull. Abeam
the touchdown point, wings level, 150 kts, Gear down, Flaps 20, call
"Dumptruck traffic, Mustang left downwind close traffic Runway XX Dumptruck"
downwind as needed for spacing, if I am #1 roll right back into about a
30-45 bank as need to end up on a very very short final. at the 90 deg
point, and 120 knots Flaps full, Call " Dumptruck traffic Mustang close in
left base, turning final XX Dumptruck." Wings level on a VERY VERY short
final, wipe off the power and set it on the numbers in a tail low wheel
landing at 100 kts. This entire turn should be very nose low in a rapid
decent. No power should ever be added, it screws up the air for the guy
behind you and is an indicator that you mismanaged your energy.
It is a quick trip from the break to the touch down and you dont have time
for paper checklists.
A dead stick overhead in the Mustang is done from 3000 ft AGL and is a
really quick trip down. But the skill is the same and the ability to judge
energy at a fixed power setting is good practice for the deadstick.
In the RV I fly initial at pattern altitude or I will never get down, I come
up initial at cruise power and speed, and pull the power to idle at the
break. Fixed pitchers have even more trouble slowing down.
The carrier break, is the same except instead of a level initial you decend
to 500 ft (yeah right ;-) and instead of a level break, you pitch up and
bank, first pitch, then bank, ( no rolling Gs ) it works great with a fixed
pitch RV because you can pull the power and burn up more energy. At 300 kts
in the Mustang you can pitch up a long ways!!!! (Waivered airspace at an
airshow for you legal beagles)
Do not archive this warbird nonsense, I can see it now, every RV in the
country all of a sudden requesting the overhead at every Towered airport in
the country. I do not routinely do overheads in the RV unless I am
practicing deadsticks or in a formation because the RV has good visibility.
In the fighters I nearly always do them because they do not fit into normal
traffic flows and the visibiltiy is so much better and safer.
Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: flea market supplier?? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club" <sisson@consolidated.net>
Yes that is them, I remember the leather too ...
Yes real nice people with nice neat lay out of his stuff....
Thanks Gert and all who responded...
Phil, Finishing second tank this week and flying in December.. RV-6
Gert wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Gert <gert@execpc.com>
>
> Them are the nice people with the cheap wemac vents....
>
> B&B Aircraft supplies
> P.O. box 37
> 202 S. Center
> Gardner, KS 66030
>
> Dan & E.J. brown
>
> fax 913-884-6533
>
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: Radio Calls... |
--> RV-List message posted by: sipherrv@juno.com
As for the USAF side of things.
1. Normally you set your self and formation lined up with the landing
runway, usually 1-3nm from the approach end of the runway at pattern
altitude.
The typical radio call is: "Viper 11 flight initial" or "Viper 11 flight
of 4 initial" or "Viper 11 flight 3 mile initial" Tower will normally
follow with "Roger Viper 11, report base". Variations 2 and 3 above are
technique and useful when trying to give the tower additional
information.
2. Prior to or upon reaching the approach end of the runway, lead gives
the pitchout signal (spinning index finger in a circular motion) and upon
a headnod from #2, he pitches out (the USAF doesn't use the kiss-off
signal). Lead will normally then pitch out over the numbers or as
directed by tower. The pitch out is Usually a 45-80degree bank turn
using 2-max alowable G with the throttle in idle to bleed down airspeed
to final turn airspeed. (the more G, the more fun it is, plus the
tighter the patters). Number two will wait the briefed time delay and
follow (usually 5 seconds).
3. Lead will rollout, continue to slow and configure (gear and flaps).
Wingman line up directly behind lead (left/right and up/down) and follow
with 3 and 4 matching the spacing and timing of #2.
4. Upon reaching a position abeam the point on final you desire to
roll-out of the final turn (typically 1/4 to 1nm), you start a decending
turn and make the following radio call:
The typical radio call is "Viper 11 base gear-down fullstop" or "Viper 11
base gear-down touch-n-go" Some people also add right or left to the
base call. #2, #3, and #4 will repeat this when they reach the base
position.
5. The final turn is flown in a constant decent and constant turn to
roll out on final to allow you to stabilize and correct for glidepath and
crosswind. (USAF requires fighters and trainers to roll out at 1nm and
300ft for a 3deg glide path).
This is a quick description of the USAF way. There are differences
between the USAF and USN way of flying the overhead pattern. Having been
an instructor in the USAF AT-38 and F-16s and the Navy T-34C at Whiting
NAS, I have instructed both ways. Overall the USAF way is easier to
learn, (one altitude, no decending break, allows a rollout on final
further from the runway, allows a constant rate of turn on final vs a
changing bank/rate of turn the Navy pattern requires due to the base
position being abeam the touchdown point).
The overhead pattern lets a formation of aircraft go from close/fingertip
formation to a trail formation in minimum time and minimum airspace. It
eliminates the need for wingmen to slow down or perform massive s-turning
to obtain spacing on final. It also allows aircraft to get to the runway
in minimum time for fuel or threat.
Just my 2 cents. Thanks to everyone for all the great info and emails.
Bill Sipher
RV-4
On Thu, 4 Sep 2003 16:27:53 -0500 "Clayton Henderson" <gsuit@eonet.net>
writes:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Clayton Henderson" <gsuit@eonet.net>
>
> Bill,
>
> I've heard all kinds of initial and overhead calls...and the
> controllers
> seem to get the picture as long as you say something close. But,
> this
> is how we were taught to do it in the late 90's when I was in
> flight
> school in Kingsville, TX, and how most fleet Marine and Navy
> squadrons
> do it.
>
> "Tower, Devil 255 flight of two, initial, for the break" or "...for
> the
> carrier" meaning 600' AGL Aircraft Carrier pattern. The airforce
> calls
> it the overhead, I believe.
>
> The tower typically responds, "Roger 255, number 1 for the carrier,
> report the numbers." Meaning you're first in line to land, report
> back
> to the tower when you arrive over the runway numbers at the
> approach
> end.
>
> Then, as the approach end numbers slide under the nose you say,
> "255,
> numbers."...look over at your dash two all sucked in nice and
> tight,
> give him the 'kiss-off' signal, and freakin' yank that sucker
> around!!...all the while chopping throttle and dropping flaps (at
> the
> appropriate speeds of course), and speed breaks, and the barn door,
> and
> anything else you think might get you slowed down to gear speed by
> the
> 180 position. :) You started this thing at around 450kts!!!
>
> Honestly, it's not as violent a maneuver as I'm making it sound.
> But
> there is the unwritten rule of all fighter pilots. 'You might look
> like
> hell anywhere else, but you better look good at the break..."
>
> Anyway, if this doesn't paint the picture, I probably can go dig up
> my
> old flight school manuals and give it to you verbatim.
>
> Clayton Henderson
> RV-7 Fuselage
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill
> VonDane
> To: rv-list@matronics.com; rv8list@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RV-List: Radio Calls...
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
>
> Can someone give me some example of how to properly call an
> "initial"
> and a "360 Overhead"?
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> Bill VonDane
> RV-8A
> www.vondane.com
> www.creativair.com
> www.epanelbuilder.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: Radio Calls... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "rv6tc" <rv6tc@earthlink.net>
Mr Condon,
First of all.... I am NOT a military pilot "wantabee". I'm a military pilot
"ustabee". And the verbiage that I specified in the post you quoted was not
"specialized jargon". It is quite standardized jargon going back many, many
years. As others have said, the Overhead is printed in the AIM. If you are
confused, then I suggest you either a) Ask. Or b). Read you AIM.
There are many tools a good pilot can put in his "toolbag" that will help
everyone. Airmanship.... it's the difference between being an "airplane
driver" and a real pilot.
Keith Hughes
----- Original Message -----
From: "P M Condon" <pcondon@mitre.org>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Radio Calls...
> --> RV-List message posted by: P M Condon <pcondon@mitre.org>
>
> There is a major safety issue here. When using localized or specialized
> jargon, or terminology that only make sense to a select few then the
> folks not in on the secret language or jargon are unaware of the
> event(s) taking place around them. I have been at airports where
> military wantabees or others used this specialized jargon only to cause
> major problems and confusion in the pattern. I guess that they felt cool
> using the jargon, the other pilots in the pattern felt otherwise.....
>
>
> In reply to:
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "rv6tc" <rv6tc@earthlink.net>
>
> Bill,
>
> "Experimental xxx, Initial." You can include a mileage, as in
> "Experimental
> xxx, 2 mi Initial." In the Air Force, the "standard" initial was 3 - 5
> miles. If you are at a military, or a joint use field (ABQ, for
> example)
> realize that the overhead pattern altitude is usually published and is
> 500
> feet above the rectangular altitude (sometimes 1,000' above). By the
> way,
> most controllers that I've ever dealt with are familiar with an
> Overhead.
> And none of the AF guys I know add the "360" to the title. In fact, the
> other day, the pattern was a little crazy at Centennial (KAPA) and I
> requested to break out of the 35 pattern and just report Initial for 28.
> Worked like a charm. If the direction of the break is not published,
> the
> controller may ask which way you want to break. Also (AF, again) you
> typically break from the threshold to the 3,000' mark. Midfield or
> departure end breaks are not "standard" but can either be requested by
> you
> or the controller for spacing.
>
> Hope that helps.
>
> Keith Hughes
> Parker, CO
> T-38 IP, Capt, USAF emeritus
>
>
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