---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 11/13/03: 45 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:33 AM - Re: UPS to Garmin to Discontinued :-( (Jim Sears) 2. 02:42 AM - Re: UPS to Garmin to Discontinued :-( (Jim Sears) 3. 02:54 AM - Slimybellyosis (Jim Nolan) 4. 03:07 AM - Desoprime 7700 (Jim Nolan) 5. 03:33 AM - Re: UPS to Garmin to Discontinued :-( (linn walters) 6. 03:54 AM - Re: UPS to Garmin to Discontinued :-( (Art Glaser) 7. 05:38 AM - Re: Canopy frame painting. (rob ray) 8. 06:01 AM - Re: Canopy frame painting. (Larry Bowen) 9. 06:33 AM - Re: UPS to Garmin to Discontinued :-( (Jim Sears) 10. 06:52 AM - Re: EKP-III C-MAP GPS (was GARMIN 196 Price) (P M Condon) 11. 06:52 AM - Re: Trimble (Charles Rowbotham) 12. 07:01 AM - Re: Canopy frame painting. (JDaniel343@aol.com) 13. 07:17 AM - Re: RV-6 crash 11/8/03 (P M Condon) 14. 07:21 AM - Re: Canopy frame painting. (Darwin N. Barrie) 15. 07:47 AM - Re: Bob Nuckolls' workshops (Craig Warner) 16. 07:52 AM - Re: AHRS vs mechanical gyros (Glen Matejcek) 17. 07:52 AM - R UPS to Garmin to Discontinued :-( ...MAYBE NOT (James E. Clark) 18. 08:56 AM - Re: UPS to Garmin to Discontinued :-( (Tim Bryan) 19. 09:01 AM - Re: Canopy frame painting. (Tim Bryan) 20. 09:12 AM - Re: Canopy frame painting. (Vince Himsl) 21. 10:05 AM - Re: R UPS to Garmin to Discontinued :-( ...MAYBE NOT (Pat Hatch) 22. 10:14 AM - Electrical questions (Scott Diffenbaugh) 23. 10:32 AM - Re: clinched rivets? (Paul Eastham) 24. 10:34 AM - Re: UPS to Garmin to Discontinued :-( (Duberstein, Allen) 25. 10:43 AM - Re: Alternate static sources (Ken Harrill) 26. 10:51 AM - Re: Cure for Slimybellyosis? re-tittled: PCV and Lycomings (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 27. 10:58 AM - EAA Young Eagles hits a million! (Jim Sears) 28. 11:53 AM - Re: Canopy frame painting. (Jim Oke) 29. 12:12 PM - Re: MY FOURTH FLIGHT (quite long) (Knicholas2@aol.com) 30. 02:01 PM - FloScan sensor in cabin tunnel (jacklockamy@att.net) 31. 02:06 PM - Re: AHRS vs mechanical gyros (Kevin Horton) 32. 02:20 PM - Re: Canopy frame painting. (Dana Overall) 33. 02:27 PM - Re: Canopy frame painting. (GLCole5475@aol.com) 34. 02:44 PM - Fw: Re: Watsonville (Ron Patterson) 35. 03:04 PM - RV Operating Costs? (Mail Filter) 36. 03:05 PM - Re: Canopy frame painting. (Scott Bilinski) 37. 03:36 PM - Re: clinched rivets? (Jim Bower) 38. 03:39 PM - Re: Canopy frame painting. (rob ray) 39. 04:10 PM - Re: Cure for Slimybellyosis? re-tittled: PCV and Lycomings (rob ray) 40. 04:42 PM - Garmin 295GPS for sale (Stanley Blanton) 41. 05:05 PM - Re: GPS-less flight with the Trio Avionics EZ Pilot Autopilot (Charlie & Tupper England) 42. 06:03 PM - Re: RV Operating Costs? (Pete Waters) 43. 07:19 PM - Re: UPS to Garmin to Discontinued :-( (linn walters) 44. 07:52 PM - Re: clinched rivets? (HalBenjamin@aol.com) 45. 11:00 PM - Floscan in cabin tunnel (hollandm) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:33:20 AM PST US From: Jim Sears Subject: Re: RV-List: UPS to Garmin to Discontinued :-( --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears ----- Original Message ----- From: "James E. Clark" Subject: RE: RV-List: UPS to Garmin to Discontinued :-( > --> RV-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" > > In response to an email I sent to ***GARMIN AT*** regarding the future of > CNX80/MX20/SL70(R)/SL15/SL30 (maybe), I got the following response from > ***GARMIN-AT*** ... > > ============================================================================ > ============ > James, > > I expect to see all three systems in question supported for the forseeable > future. The CNX80 is currently the only WAAS GPS on the market that is > approved under TSO-C146a. It also has a number of other unique features > that will secure its place in the avionics marketplace. It has flight > planning capabilities that allow you to insert a victor or jet airway into a > flight plan with a single entry. It has an infrared dataport that will > allow users to do IFR flight planning with greater ease than is now > possible. Its display, although smaller than the 530, is equal in > resolution. There are other features I could list as well. In the case of > the 430 and 530, the success of those products speaks for itself, and they > will only get better with time. > > The GX products will and have been discontinued along with the SL50 and SL60 > but the rest of the Apollo products will continue to be produced and > supported. The discontinued products will also be supported for years to > come. > > I hope this answers some of your questions, thank you for your email. > > We value your business and your feedback. > ============================================================================ > ============ > > > Sooooooo.... according to the "source", GX Series products along with SL50 > and SL60 are (or will be) discontinued (though supported). The other > products are still being offered. I suspect that they will not make a > product with the "UPS" brand anymore, but unless the GarminAT people are > outright lying to me (I suspect NOT), then they have products that they are > likely to sell as long as there are adequate buyers and there is no > conflicting product. > > The CNX80, SL30/SL40, MX20 and to *some* extent the SL70 (R) are in fact > unique products. I cannot see them continuing with the SL15 for too long but > since that is basically a PSE unit, you are still "good to go" there. I am > looking at using some combination of the above. > > > James > > > James > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bobby Hester > > Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 11:01 PM > > To: RV-List > > Subject: RV-List: UPS to Garmin to Discontinued :-( > > > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: Bobby Hester > > > > I call Gulf Coast Avionics today to get a quote on some radios so I > > would have an idea of what it's going to cost when the time comes. I was > > hoping to start with a SL30 and a SL70 and later add a GX60. I was told > > that the GX60 has been discontinued and that Garmin was going to stop > > make the UPS line. Damn! > > > > I sure don't want to buy something that will be discontinued before I > > ever get to use it. > > > > Is this news correct? I haven't seen any news to this affect. > > > > Guess I'll end up going with Garmin stuff GNS-430, GTX-327 > > > > -- > > Surfing the Web from Hopkinsville, KY > > Visit my web site at: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite/ > > RV7A Slowbuild wings-QB Fuse :-) > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:42:27 AM PST US From: Jim Sears Subject: Re: RV-List: UPS to Garmin to Discontinued :-( --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears > I call Gulf Coast Avionics today to get a quote on some radios so I > would have an idea of what it's going to cost when the time comes. I was > hoping to start with a SL30 and a SL70 and later add a GX60. I was told > that the GX60 has been discontinued and that Garmin was going to stop > make the UPS line. Damn! > Whoops! I sent the first reply by accident. Remember Terra? It was a fine little group of radios that I really liked. Their radios were geared to the homebuilder market. Nice stuff that would have been a good choice for anyone's homebuilt. Alas, they were bought out by a bigger company and deleted from the marketplace. What you're seeing happening to UPSAT is only the beginning. As soon as Garmin can figure out how UPSAT's technology works, they'll shut it down, also. This is the second time I've had radios I like eliminated by a company I didn't. I know many of you like Garmin; but, I'm not so fond of it and have a UPSAT SL60 in my RV to prove it. I had planned on buying UPSAT for my next one, as well. Now, I'm going to have to look elsewhere, I guess. I really like the SL60 and would have bought another of those. Thank goodness Garmin has bought out King, yet. Hey, it's just a matter of time, maybe. Jim Sears in KY do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:54:24 AM PST US From: "Jim Nolan" Subject: RV-List: Slimybellyosis --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Nolan" Listers, I used to get a lot of oil on the belly of my RV4. So I installed a air/oil separator and fed it back into my engine. Noticed that oil appeared milky. Installed plastic catch bottle coming from air/oil separator. Found that I'd get a pint of water and some oil in about 15 to 20 hrs during the winter. Threw 11 thousand dollars at the engine. Problem with oil on belly went away. Problem with water will always present but I drain it underneath airplane and cleanup isn't that bad. I don't think I'd want to return to the engine what was coming out of that breather tube much less try and burn it. Moral of story.= ( Money will keep the belly of an airplane cleaner.) Jim Nolan N444JN ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:07:49 AM PST US From: "Jim Nolan" Subject: RV-List: Desoprime 7700 --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Nolan" Listers, To everyone that wrote me about Desoprime. Thanks Come to find out, Desoprime needs to have the aluminum alodined before application. So that's out. Don't want to make this project appear to be more work than necessary. I went with a self etching primer, as my RV4 has. It's held up on the RV4, there's no reason why it shouldn't on an RV7. I expect I'll be dead and gone before there's any evidence of corrosion. When that happens, the owner can sue me. Jim Nolan N444JN ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:33:26 AM PST US From: linn walters Subject: Re: RV-List: UPS to Garmin to Discontinued :-( --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters Bobby Hester wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Bobby Hester > >I call Gulf Coast Avionics today to get a quote on some radios so I >would have an idea of what it's going to cost when the time comes. I was >hoping to start with a SL30 and a SL70 and later add a GX60. I was told >that the GX60 has been discontinued and that Garmin was going to stop >make the UPS line. Damn! > Well, you should be concerned. Garmin did just that with the Terra line. Bought it and then just stopped making it. Basically took a great line of radios off the market. None of them a GPS which Garmin did very well with. BUT this time Garmin has formed a new 'company' called Garmin AT to continue to market the old UPS AT hardware. I'm not saying that's a absolute sign that they're gonna keep building and selling the AT stuff, but it's a different approach to the acquisition. Actually, now that I think of it, it's probably easier to just dump a whole 'company'! Whew, what a pickle that puts us in! Now I'm starting to get paranoid! I like the UPSAT stuff and plan on stuffing some big bucks in my 10 panel. By then, though, things will be pretty stable, I hope. Linn > >I sure don't want to buy something that will be discontinued before I >ever get to use it. > >Is this news correct? I haven't seen any news to this affect. > >Guess I'll end up going with Garmin stuff GNS-430, GTX-327 > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:54:06 AM PST US From: Art Glaser Subject: Re: RV-List: UPS to Garmin to Discontinued :-( --> RV-List message posted by: Art Glaser I do not think Garmin bought Terrra. Trimble? linn walters wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: linn walters > >Bobby Hester wrote: > > > >>--> RV-List message posted by: Bobby Hester >> >>I call Gulf Coast Avionics today to get a quote on some radios so I >>would have an idea of what it's going to cost when the time comes. I was >>hoping to start with a SL30 and a SL70 and later add a GX60. I was told >>that the GX60 has been discontinued and that Garmin was going to stop >>make the UPS line. Damn! >> >> >> >Well, you should be concerned. Garmin did just that with the Terra >line. Bought it and then just stopped making it. Basically took a >great line of radios off the market. None of them a GPS which Garmin did >very well with. BUT this time Garmin has formed a new 'company' called >Garmin AT to continue to market the old UPS AT hardware. I'm not saying >that's a absolute sign that they're gonna keep building and selling the >AT stuff, but it's a different approach to the acquisition. Actually, >now that I think of it, it's probably easier to just dump a whole >'company'! Whew, what a pickle that puts us in! Now I'm starting to >get paranoid! I like the UPSAT stuff and plan on stuffing some big >bucks in my 10 panel. By then, though, things will be pretty stable, I >hope. >Linn > > > >>I sure don't want to buy something that will be discontinued before I >>ever get to use it. >> >>Is this news correct? I haven't seen any news to this affect. >> >>Guess I'll end up going with Garmin stuff GNS-430, GTX-327 >> >> >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:38:44 AM PST US From: rob ray Subject: RE: RV-List: Canopy frame painting. --> RV-List message posted by: rob ray Absolutely nothing is wrong with gray. Every airplane I have ever flown is gray inside, including my RV4 and alot of very cool, very fast jets. If he wants a pimp-mobile painted white, and can deal with all the reflections inside his canopy on a sunny day, hey it's a free country...I have some white shag carpet in my attic that would go real nice with it.... THANK GOD for freedom eh? RR Larry Bowen wrote: --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" I resemble that! (what's wrong with gray?) - Larry Bowen, RV-8 finish, recently painted inside of canopy skirts gray, to match the interior... Larry@BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com Do not archive > -----Original Message----- > From: Darwin N. Barrie [mailto:ktlkrn@cox.net] > Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 11:47 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy frame painting. > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Darwin N. Barrie" > > I painted mine the interior color, but prolly should have > painted them the outside color. At least they aren't gray!! > > Bring that thing to AZ next summer so we can watch it melt > into a ball of molten metal. > > Darwin N. Barrie > Chandler AZ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dana Overall" > To: > Subject: RV-List: Canopy frame painting. > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" > > > > Whoa back to buildling:-) > > > > OK, I think everyone knows I am painting by 7 black. I know, I'tll > > blow > up > > and look like the Airbus at Oshkosh, I'll be able to fry > breakfast at > > SNF > on > > the wings and my shoes will melt climbing aboard but so be it. > > > > My canopy frame is now painted black but I'd like some input on the > > side skirts. Most will think it's anal but here goes. > > > > I want to avoid being able to "look through" the canopy and see the > > inside of the outer canopy skirt and inside canopy skirt. Can you > > actually see this area when all is said and done? > > > > What did everyone else do on the outside of the side and rear canopy > skirts, > > just mask at the canopy and fire away with the HVLP?? > > > > Did anyone else paint the inside of the inner and outer > canopy skirts > before > > riveting these together and bolting the canopy to the frame > and skirts > > or > is > > it a waste of effort (like I haven't wasted a sh$tload, or > is that a > > boatload, of time already)? > > > > > > Dana Overall > > Richmond, KY > > RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" > > Finish kit > > Buying Instruments. Hangar flying my Dynon. > http://rvflying.tripod.com > > do not archive > > --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:01:26 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy frame painting. From: "Larry Bowen" --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" Understood. I chose gray because it hides dirt, there is less reflectivity under bright conditions, it easily covers the gray primer, and it will compliment my military-ish exterior paint scheme. Good things. Trim items like seat belts and my colorful personality will bring plenty of color to the cockpit. :) Cheers, - Larry Bowen, RV-8, functional gray interior. Larry@BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com Darwin N. Barrie said: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Darwin N. Barrie" > > Don't know what it is but after looking at hundreds of RV's over the past > few months the ones with gray interiors just don't look finished. Take no > offense some of them were great looking interior paint jobs. But... if you > can paint gray you can paint white, blue....... Ever own a $60K plus car > where the interior metal was gray. I can't see spending 3-9K on an > exterior > paint job then paint the interior with $70 bucks worth of gray. So why not > give our pride and joy the color it deserves. > > LOL.. Darwin > Beautiful White interior > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Larry Bowen" > To: > Subject: RE: RV-List: Canopy frame painting. > > >> --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" >> >> I resemble that! (what's wrong with gray?) >> >> - >> Larry Bowen, RV-8 finish, recently painted inside of canopy skirts gray, >> to match the interior... >> Larry@BowenAero.com >> http://BowenAero.com >> Do not archive >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Darwin N. Barrie [mailto:ktlkrn@cox.net] >> > Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 11:47 PM >> > To: rv-list@matronics.com >> > Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy frame painting. >> > >> > >> > --> RV-List message posted by: "Darwin N. Barrie" >> > >> > I painted mine the interior color, but prolly should have >> > painted them the outside color. At least they aren't gray!! >> > >> > Bring that thing to AZ next summer so we can watch it melt >> > into a ball of molten metal. >> > >> > Darwin N. Barrie >> > Chandler AZ >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Dana Overall" >> > To: >> > Subject: RV-List: Canopy frame painting. >> > >> > >> > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" >> > > >> > > Whoa back to buildling:-) >> > > >> > > OK, I think everyone knows I am painting by 7 black. I know, I'tll >> > > blow >> > up >> > > and look like the Airbus at Oshkosh, I'll be able to fry >> > breakfast at >> > > SNF >> > on >> > > the wings and my shoes will melt climbing aboard but so be it. >> > > >> > > My canopy frame is now painted black but I'd like some input on the >> > > side skirts. Most will think it's anal but here goes. >> > > >> > > I want to avoid being able to "look through" the canopy and see the >> > > inside of the outer canopy skirt and inside canopy skirt. Can you >> > > actually see this area when all is said and done? >> > > >> > > What did everyone else do on the outside of the side and rear canopy >> > skirts, >> > > just mask at the canopy and fire away with the HVLP?? >> > > >> > > Did anyone else paint the inside of the inner and outer >> > canopy skirts >> > before >> > > riveting these together and bolting the canopy to the frame >> > and skirts >> > > or >> > is >> > > it a waste of effort (like I haven't wasted a sh$tload, or >> > is that a >> > > boatload, of time already)? >> > > >> > > >> > > Dana Overall >> > > Richmond, KY >> > > RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" >> > > Finish kit >> > > Buying Instruments. Hangar flying my Dynon. >> > http://rvflying.tripod.com >> > > do not archive >> > > >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:33:54 AM PST US From: Jim Sears Subject: Re: RV-List: UPS to Garmin to Discontinued :-( --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears > I do not think Garmin bought Terrra. Trimble? > Trimble is correct. Now, what has happened to Trimble in recent years? I was just looking at some websites and the ads listed in a couple of magazines and didn't see it listed anymore. Was it yet another business swallowed up by Garmin? If so, we can see for sure what will happen to UPSAT. Jim Sears in KY do not archive ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:52:45 AM PST US From: P M Condon Subject: RV-List: Re: EKP-III C-MAP GPS (was GARMIN 196 Price) --> RV-List message posted by: P M Condon http://aviation.c-map.com/ Its a aviation GPS with full Jepp database and a user road/street/house level of display should you want it. Its a small knee board sized unit. Great factory support and available used thru E-BAY and Tropic Aero. New mono units available thru the factory for 595$. Color units available thru discounter Marv Golden (and many others) for 1550$. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:52:45 AM PST US From: "Charles Rowbotham" Subject: Re: RV-List: Trimble --> RV-List message posted by: "Charles Rowbotham" Check the archives - I seem to remember that Trimble stayed in business (Sat & Marine) but discontinued the avaition products. I think Gulf Coast picked up the remaining inventory and agreed to provide support. Chuck >From: Jim Sears >Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com >To: >Subject: Re: RV-List: UPS to Garmin to Discontinued :-( >Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 09:32:33 -0500 > >--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears > > > > I do not think Garmin bought Terrra. Trimble? > > > >Trimble is correct. Now, what has happened to Trimble in recent years? I >was just looking at some websites and the ads listed in a couple of >magazines and didn't see it listed anymore. Was it yet another business >swallowed up by Garmin? If so, we can see for sure what will happen to >UPSAT. > >Jim Sears in KY >do not archive > > Great deals on high-speed Internet access as low as $26.95. https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.) ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:01:57 AM PST US From: JDaniel343@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy frame painting. --> RV-List message posted by: JDaniel343@aol.com I chose gray also. I didn't want annoying reflections off the canopy. And yes it might get hot inside at Sun-N-Fun and Copperstate, but its going to be a lot warmer at 10,000 ft on a January day in Wyoming or Minnesota. John Danielson RV-6 175 Hrs. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:17:44 AM PST US From: P M Condon Subject: RV-List: Re: RV-6 crash 11/8/03 --> RV-List message posted by: P M Condon Reprinted from Staronline.com Venturan, 85, killed when plane crashes Experimental craft slams into bottom of Santa Clara River By Charles Levin, clevin@VenturaCountyStar.com November 8, 2003 The pilot of an experimental plane was killed Friday when he crashed in the Santa Clara River bottom about a mile east of the Saticoy Bridge, authorities said. The pilot was identified as Russ Cathaway, 85, of Ventura by the Ventura County Medical Examiner. An autopsy will be performed to determine the cause of death. The single-engine, two-seat RV-6A aircraft was registered to Cathaway, a former Lockheed engineer, who flew out of Santa Paula Airport. "I was talking to him before he took off," said Pat Quinn, 62, of Ventura. "We were talking about flying because it was such a beautiful day." It's unclear why the plane crashed, said Eric Nishimoto, spokesman with the Ventura County Sheriff's Department. A witness called the department around 3:20 p.m. to report seeing the plane flying west and very low over the river bed when it turned back toward Santa Paula, Nishimoto said. The witness did not see the crash but could see sand flying up in the air where the plane went down, Nishimoto said. "She knew there was an impact," he said. A Ventura County Sheriff's Department helicopter arrived at the scene and found the red and white aircraft upside down with the pilot pinned inside the cockpit, which was filled with sand, Nishimoto said. The pilot was dead when emergency personnel reached him. Officials believe the plane went down nose first, Nishimoto said. Ventura County Fire Department firefighters were called in to pull the pilot from the wreckage, Nishimoto said. Ventura City firefighters also assisted. Officials from the Federal Aviation Administration and National Transportation Safety Board were being called to investigate the crash, Nishimoto said. Mike Dewey said Cathaway was among the oldest active pilots at the airport. Dewey described Cathaway as a passionate aviator, whose youthful appearance belied his octogenarian status. Dewey said Cathaway had worked at Lockheed Martin's Skunkworks division, famous for designing experimental planes. Cathaway also designed "El Bandito," a popular racing plane, later renamed the "Frenzel Special," Dewey said. The plane was originally designed for sport flying and capable of aerobatics. Dewey said there are about 3,500 RV-6As flying today. "As far as experimental airplanes go, it's the most prolific and the Cadillac of the airplanes," Dewey said. "It's got a great safety record." Cathaway built the RV-6A aircraft. "He did a fabulous, beautiful, meticulous job as you would expect any engineer to do," Dewey said. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:21:24 AM PST US From: "Darwin N. Barrie" Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy frame painting. --> RV-List message posted by: "Darwin N. Barrie" Hi Larry, This was supposed to be funny. I don't mind gray at all. Hey did you hear the one about......... Darwin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Bowen" Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy frame painting. > --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" > > Understood. > > I chose gray because it hides dirt, there is less reflectivity under > bright conditions, it easily covers the gray primer, and it will > compliment my military-ish exterior paint scheme. Good things. Trim > items like seat belts and my colorful personality will bring plenty of > color to the cockpit. :) > > Cheers, > > - > Larry Bowen, RV-8, functional gray interior. > Larry@BowenAero.com > http://BowenAero.com > > Darwin N. Barrie said: > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Darwin N. Barrie" > > > > Don't know what it is but after looking at hundreds of RV's over the past > > few months the ones with gray interiors just don't look finished. Take no > > offense some of them were great looking interior paint jobs. But... if you > > can paint gray you can paint white, blue....... Ever own a $60K plus car > > where the interior metal was gray. I can't see spending 3-9K on an > > exterior > > paint job then paint the interior with $70 bucks worth of gray. So why not > > give our pride and joy the color it deserves. > > > > LOL.. Darwin > > Beautiful White interior > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Larry Bowen" > > To: > > Subject: RE: RV-List: Canopy frame painting. > > > > > >> --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" > >> > >> I resemble that! (what's wrong with gray?) > >> > >> - > >> Larry Bowen, RV-8 finish, recently painted inside of canopy skirts gray, > >> to match the interior... > >> Larry@BowenAero.com > >> http://BowenAero.com > >> Do not archive > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: Darwin N. Barrie [mailto:ktlkrn@cox.net] > >> > Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 11:47 PM > >> > To: rv-list@matronics.com > >> > Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy frame painting. > >> > > >> > > >> > --> RV-List message posted by: "Darwin N. Barrie" > >> > > >> > I painted mine the interior color, but prolly should have > >> > painted them the outside color. At least they aren't gray!! > >> > > >> > Bring that thing to AZ next summer so we can watch it melt > >> > into a ball of molten metal. > >> > > >> > Darwin N. Barrie > >> > Chandler AZ > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: "Dana Overall" > >> > To: > >> > Subject: RV-List: Canopy frame painting. > >> > > >> > > >> > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" > >> > > > >> > > Whoa back to buildling:-) > >> > > > >> > > OK, I think everyone knows I am painting by 7 black. I know, I'tll > >> > > blow > >> > up > >> > > and look like the Airbus at Oshkosh, I'll be able to fry > >> > breakfast at > >> > > SNF > >> > on > >> > > the wings and my shoes will melt climbing aboard but so be it. > >> > > > >> > > My canopy frame is now painted black but I'd like some input on the > >> > > side skirts. Most will think it's anal but here goes. > >> > > > >> > > I want to avoid being able to "look through" the canopy and see the > >> > > inside of the outer canopy skirt and inside canopy skirt. Can you > >> > > actually see this area when all is said and done? > >> > > > >> > > What did everyone else do on the outside of the side and rear canopy > >> > skirts, > >> > > just mask at the canopy and fire away with the HVLP?? > >> > > > >> > > Did anyone else paint the inside of the inner and outer > >> > canopy skirts > >> > before > >> > > riveting these together and bolting the canopy to the frame > >> > and skirts > >> > > or > >> > is > >> > > it a waste of effort (like I haven't wasted a sh$tload, or > >> > is that a > >> > > boatload, of time already)? > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Dana Overall > >> > > Richmond, KY > >> > > RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" > >> > > Finish kit > >> > > Buying Instruments. Hangar flying my Dynon. > >> > http://rvflying.tripod.com > >> > > do not archive > >> > > > >> > >> > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:47:51 AM PST US From: "Craig Warner" Subject: Re: RV-List: Bob Nuckolls' workshops --> RV-List message posted by: "Craig Warner" Where in the North east? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bobby Hester" Subject: Re: RV-List: Bob Nuckolls' workshops > --> RV-List message posted by: Bobby Hester > > Charles Rowbotham wrote: > > >--> RV-List message posted by: "Charles Rowbotham" > > > >All, > > > >Ron's experience certainly echos Dave and mine's. Best investment we made in > >our 8A, short of a major donation to Van's. > > > >For all of you in the North East - our EAA Chapter (334) is sponsoring Bob > >on March 6/7 of 2004. Hope to see many of you there. > > > >Chuck & Dave Rowbotham > >RV-8A > > > > > > > In the North East, could that be narrowed down just a bit more? > > -- > Surfing the Web from Hopkinsville, KY > Visit my web site at: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite/ > RV7A Slowbuild wings-QB Fuse :-) > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:52:20 AM PST US From: "Glen Matejcek" Subject: RE: RV-List: AHRS vs mechanical gyros MIME_BOUND_NEXTPART --> RV-List message posted by: "Glen Matejcek" Hi All- Just a couple of quick data points: 1 I've decided to go with BMA, warts and all. This is at least in part do to the constant upgrades. 2 Despite the lack of PR savvy earlier in their existence, my biggest / main / only real problem with them so far is their inability to hit promised delivery dates. On anything. Hopefully this will be cured with their move to their new digs in COS. 3 I bought some engine sensors from GRT. Best bang for the buck, IMHO. While discussing some details with one of their techs, he asked me what I was going to hook them up to. When I told him BMA, he immediately told me that the BMA system WOULD NOT FUNCTION WITHOUT GPS LOCK. I didn't tell him I'd already done lots of hand held 'aerobatics' with the box without even attaching the GPS antenna. I just asked him how I could loose the whole constellation at once. He had no answer. 4 While researching products, I tend to ask venders very pointed questions about their products as well as the competitions. In my experience (just one guy) I've not heard Greg say anything bad about the competition. Glen Matejcek RV-8 QB, pulling wires / cuttin' holes in the panel aerobubba@earthlink.net ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:52:20 AM PST US From: "James E. Clark" Subject: RV-List: R UPS to Garmin to Discontinued :-( ...MAYBE NOT --> RV-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" I think that the discontinuation process was already underway for certain UPSAT products. And for some, understandably so, given the *new* product(s) [e.g. CNX80]. The real question is what makes GOOD BUSINESS sense for Garmin. If you are very paranoid, you might say just kill off all the UPSAT stuff. Well I have another theory (based on what they have said and what I believe makes the most business sense). They will as they say use the engineering talent as much as possible. They will keep products that are unique and have sales potential. They will integrate the two sets of technologies into a FUTURE line of products. The integration will take at least two years (if not four). At present they have no reason to kill the: CNX80 ... only thing of its type currently shipping MX20 ... they do not have such a display (it does need more horsepower though) ... and little reason to kill the: SL30/SL40 (great little radios ... nobody comes close) SL70(R) ... for a while (space saver *AND* can be remotely interfaced to the CNX80. The SL15 demand can be redirected to PSE. If I were them, the above is what I would keep after getting all the labels changed :-). I plan to purchase from that set. Just another view on the matter. James > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jim Sears > Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 9:33 AM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: UPS to Garmin to Discontinued :-( > > > --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears > > > > I do not think Garmin bought Terrra. Trimble? > > > > Trimble is correct. Now, what has happened to Trimble in recent > years? I > was just looking at some websites and the ads listed in a couple of > magazines and didn't see it listed anymore. Was it yet another business > swallowed up by Garmin? If so, we can see for sure what will happen to > UPSAT. > > Jim Sears in KY > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:12 AM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: Re: RV-List: UPS to Garmin to Discontinued :-( --> RV-List message posted by: "Tim Bryan" Boy that hurts. I already own a full panel of the UPS AT stuff. SL15 MX20 GX60 SL30 SL70 Not flying quite yet. Already worth less. don't like Microsoft either primarily because of their tactics. Don't even begin to believe they would tell you their plans. They won't till announced Do Not Archive! Tim Bryan RV6 N616TB -------Original Message------- From: rv-list@matronics.com Subject: RV-List: UPS to Garmin to Discontinued :-( --> RV-List message posted by: Bobby Hester I call Gulf Coast Avionics today to get a quote on some radios so I would have an idea of what it's going to cost when the time comes. I was hoping to start with a SL30 and a SL70 and later add a GX60. I was told that the GX60 has been discontinued and that Garmin was going to stop make the UPS line. Damn! I sure don't want to buy something that will be discontinued before I ever get to use it. Is this news correct? I haven't seen any news to this affect. Guess I'll end up going with Garmin stuff GNS-430, GTX-327 -- Surfing the Web from Hopkinsville, KY Visit my web site at: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite/ RV7A Slowbuild wings-QB Fuse :-) . ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:10 AM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy frame painting. --> RV-List message posted by: "Tim Bryan" Dana, Keep it at altitude and the heat won't be a problem. That's where they belong anyway. As to the interior color: Mine is a Safety Blue. (couldn't do grey) I painted the inside of the outside skirt with the outside color and painted the inside of the inside skirt with the interior color. With all of the lightening holes in there you can see both colors and it softens the contrast between the inside and outside... When you see it. Tim Bryan RV-6 (with a -7 inside skirt brace) N616TB -------Original Message------- From: rv-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy frame painting. --> RV-List message posted by: "Darwin N. Barrie" Don't know what it is but after looking at hundreds of RV's over the past few months the ones with gray interiors just don't look finished. Take no offense some of them were great looking interior paint jobs. But... if you can paint gray you can paint white, blue....... Ever own a $60K plus car where the interior metal was gray. I can't see spending 3-9K on an exterior paint job then paint the interior with $70 bucks worth of gray. So why not give our pride and joy the color it deserves. LOL.. Darwin Beautiful White interior ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Bowen" Subject: RE: RV-List: Canopy frame painting. > --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" > > I resemble that! (what's wrong with gray?) > > - > Larry Bowen, RV-8 finish, recently painted inside of canopy skirts gray, > to match the interior... > Larry@BowenAero.com > http://BowenAero.com > Do not archive > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Darwin N. Barrie [mailto:ktlkrn@cox.net] > > Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 11:47 PM > > To: rv-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy frame painting. > > > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Darwin N. Barrie" > > > > I painted mine the interior color, but prolly should have > > painted them the outside color. At least they aren't gray!! > > > > Bring that thing to AZ next summer so we can watch it melt > > into a ball of molten metal. > > > > Darwin N. Barrie > > Chandler AZ > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Dana Overall" > > To: > > Subject: RV-List: Canopy frame painting. > > > > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" > > > > > > Whoa back to buildling:-) > > > > > > OK, I think everyone knows I am painting by 7 black. I know, I'tll > > > blow > > up > > > and look like the Airbus at Oshkosh, I'll be able to fry > > breakfast at > > > SNF > > on > > > the wings and my shoes will melt climbing aboard but so be it. > > > > > > My canopy frame is now painted black but I'd like some input on the > > > side skirts. Most will think it's anal but here goes. > > > > > > I want to avoid being able to "look through" the canopy and see the > > > inside of the outer canopy skirt and inside canopy skirt. Can you > > > actually see this area when all is said and done? > > > > > > What did everyone else do on the outside of the side and rear canopy > > skirts, > > > just mask at the canopy and fire away with the HVLP?? > > > > > > Did anyone else paint the inside of the inner and outer > > canopy skirts > > before > > > riveting these together and bolting the canopy to the frame > > and skirts > > > or > > is > > > it a waste of effort (like I haven't wasted a sh$tload, or > > is that a > > > boatload, of time already)? > > > > > > > > > Dana Overall > > > Richmond, KY > > > RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" > > > Finish kit > > > Buying Instruments. Hangar flying my Dynon. > > http://rvflying.tripod.com > > > do not archive > > > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:12:09 AM PST US From: "Vince Himsl" Subject: RE: RV-List: Canopy frame painting. --> RV-List message posted by: "Vince Himsl" Regardless of color, I noticed that when I painted the back side of the fiberglass portion my rear seat that the rough texture began to look like cloth. It is a curious effect but I think that if you paint your skirt a slightly lighter or darker color than the frame you will have this same effect with minimal investment in time and money. I guess I am suggesting a complementary contrast rather than a time consuming and expensive attempt to hide the frame. Besides, non flying observers might be reassured seeing the 'beefy' metal frame in a sea of aluminum. Also I am continuously amazed at what others key in on when they look inside the cockpit...do we still call it a cockpit? Anyway, Hope this helps, Vince Himsl RV8 - FB (was SB for slow built but now FB for Forever Built) I want to avoid being able to "look through" the canopy and see the inside of the outer canopy skirt and inside canopy skirt. Can you actually see this area when all is said and done? Dana Overall Richmond, KY RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" Finish kit Buying Instruments. Hangar flying my Dynon. http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive Concerned that messages may bounce because your Hotmail account is over ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:05:50 AM PST US From: "Pat Hatch" Subject: Re: RV-List: R UPS to Garmin to Discontinued :-( ...MAYBE NOT --> RV-List message posted by: "Pat Hatch" Further to Jim's points, I think one of the reasons Garmin bought UPSAT was to get the WAAS expertise that they were way behind in. The CNX-80 is a WAAS certified GPS, Garmin has no such animal, not even in development, I understand. The MX-20 is arguably the premier moving map display for GA. Many other technologies interface to the MX-20, e.g., WSI weather talks to it, and some of the TAWS units interface with the MX-20. I think these units at least will be integrated into the Garmin product line and all the other stuff they will support if only as sound business practice. I just ordered the full up UPSAT stack with WSI wx for the RV-7. I'm not worried. Pat Hatch RV-4 RV-6 RV-7 QB (Building) Vero Beach, FL ----- Original Message ----- From: "James E. Clark" Subject: RV-List: R UPS to Garmin to Discontinued :-( ...MAYBE NOT > --> RV-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" > > I think that the discontinuation process was already underway for certain > UPSAT products. And for some, understandably so, given the *new* product(s) > [e.g. CNX80]. > > The real question is what makes GOOD BUSINESS sense for Garmin. If you are > very paranoid, you might say just kill off all the UPSAT stuff. Well I have > another theory (based on what they have said and what I believe makes the > most business sense). > > They will as they say use the engineering talent as much as possible. > They will keep products that are unique and have sales potential. > They will integrate the two sets of technologies into a FUTURE line of > products. > The integration will take at least two years (if not four). > > At present they have no reason to kill the: > CNX80 ... only thing of its type currently shipping > MX20 ... they do not have such a display (it does need more horsepower > though) > > ... and little reason to kill the: > SL30/SL40 (great little radios ... nobody comes close) > SL70(R) ... for a while (space saver *AND* can be remotely interfaced to the > CNX80. > > The SL15 demand can be redirected to PSE. > > If I were them, the above is what I would keep after getting all the labels > changed :-). > > I plan to purchase from that set. > > > Just another view on the matter. > > > James > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jim Sears > > Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 9:33 AM > > To: rv-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: RV-List: UPS to Garmin to Discontinued :-( > > > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears > > > > > > > I do not think Garmin bought Terrra. Trimble? > > > > > > > Trimble is correct. Now, what has happened to Trimble in recent > > years? I > > was just looking at some websites and the ads listed in a couple of > > magazines and didn't see it listed anymore. Was it yet another business > > swallowed up by Garmin? If so, we can see for sure what will happen to > > UPSAT. > > > > Jim Sears in KY > > do not archive > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:14:50 AM PST US From: "Scott Diffenbaugh" Subject: RV-List: Electrical questions --> RV-List message posted by: "Scott Diffenbaugh" RV listers with specific electrical questions may want to take note of the following list --- it is a great resource! I could go into a discussion of trouble analysis and mitigation for you to relay to the RV-List . . . but I think it wiser to suggest that the writer be urged to contact the manufacturer and/or designer of a product that's giving him problems instead of throwing the question out onto a group that specializes in other issues. I'm presuming that he's having problems with an ov module he built or purchased from me or B&C. The AeroElectric-List is just a sign-up away on the same server as the RV-List. I used to subscribe to a dozen list servers and have to sort through 200-300 pieces of e-mail a day looking for electrical/avionics systems issues. It simply got to be too much effort and served only the folks on lists I subscribed to. Please encourage folks on the various airframe lists to ALSO participate on the AeroElectric-List where their electrical systems issues are most likely to be dealt with quickly and to the benefit of more builders. Bob . . . Scott Diffenbaugh diff@foothill.net ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:32:45 AM PST US From: Paul Eastham Subject: Re: RV-List: clinched rivets? --> RV-List message posted by: Paul Eastham Thanks Fred, those articles were very informative. I agree completely with your assessment of pneumatics as "dumb"... I need to stop being so lazy and get out that hand squeezer more often especially on these tricky rivets. Regards, Paul PS: I was referring to 3/32 rivets and have tried shorter yokes so yoke flex probably wasn't the main problem. I think it's operator error and slightly misaligned holes, then leading to sloped dimples after the first failed squeeze. On Wed, Nov 12, 2003 at 11:02:20PM -0800, Fred Kunkel wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Fred Kunkel" > > Hi Paul, > > Is the 4" yoke you are using a standard yoke or a thin nose yoke? Most 4" > thin nose yokes are only rated for a 3/32" rivet although you typically > won't see that noted anywhere. Even most standard 4" yokes are only rated > for a 1/8" rivet & will flex substantially on the longer rivets. You need to > call whomever you got the yoke from first & ask what size rivet it's rated > for before trying anything else. > > With respect to the 2nd part of your message - a pneumatic squeezer is a > very friendly tool, but it's also very dumb! Once it starts to squeeze a > rivet crookedly (at an angle) there's absolutely no way to straighten it > out. Drill it out & put in another one. Continuing to squeeze a rivet with > 3000 lbs. of pressure, at an angle, in thin aluminum will undoubtedly deform > not only the rivet, but also the surrounding skin as you have discovered. > > If you want to final size the prepunched holes to a perfectly round, exact > size use #30 & #40 reamers instead of drill bits. Also remember that the > pilots on the dimple dies are sized #30 & #40. Not disrespecting any one > else's experience &/or practices, but those pilots are designed to fit > specific hole sizes so the rest of the dimple die can form the material > around it. They are not designed to do additional streching &/or forming > although they will if used in such a manner. > > When using the pneumatic squeezer we suggest you put the cupped squeezer set > in the top of the yoke & "hang" it on the manufactured head of the rivet. > Much easier than trying to come onto the manufactured head straight with the > cupped set in the set holder while trying to balance the tool, especially in > tight or awkward places. Using the smallest yoke appropriate for the job > will also help you balance the tool. > > We contribute articles monthly to the SoCal RV NewsLetter. The newsletters > can be found at: > > http://www.rvproject.com/SoCalNewsletters/ > > You might want to check out the articles in the July & August newsletters. > They specifically deal with Tolerances & Pneumatic Squeezers which you are > addressing at this time. > > Any other questions, pls. contact us off-list. > > Blue Skies! > > Fred W. Kunkel > CLEAR AIR > www.clearairtools.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Eastham" > To: > Subject: Re: RV-List: clinched rivets? > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: Paul Eastham > > > > I do have the pneumatic squeezer, and I agree that it is money well > > spent. You might still be right though...my squeezer is rather heavy > > and the rivets in question were in awkward spots (also throw in a long > > 4" yoke), so there's certainly plenty of room for things to come out > > of square. > > > > The ongoing problem, however, is once the first rivet leans over, it > > squashes the dimple a little in that direction, such that > > subsequent rivets seem destined to follow in the same direction. > > > > Paul > > > > On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 02:35:03AM +0000, Jim Bower wrote: > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Bower" > > > > > > Paul, > > > > > > Here's my $0.02 worth. The observation that your squeezed rivets are > worse > > > than your driven ones could be blamed on the squeezer. (I'm assuming > you > > > are using a hand squeezer.) You have a rivet and sets at one end of an > 18" > > > handle pair, and you are at the other end squeezing the handles > together. > > > It's hard to keep the squeezer yoke and sets in line AND maintain the > right > > > pressure on the rivet head to keep it against the material. This gets > worse > > > with 1/8" rivets. > > > > > > The best $350.00 to $400.00 you will EVER spend on your project is a > > > pneumatic squeezer. You can operate it with one hand while you maintain > > > perfect alignment on the rivet. You aren't at arm's length trying to > keep > > > that long squeezer lined up. I haven't touched my hand squeezer since I > > > bought the pneumatic one over 2 years ago. > > > > > > Not only does it help ensure better rivets, but you will have a lot more > fun > > > dimpling, too! > > > > > > Jim Bower > > > St. Louis, MO > > > RV-6A Fuselage > > > > > > > > > >From: Paul Eastham > > > >Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com > > > >To: rv-list@matronics.com > > > >Subject: RV-List: clinched rivets? > > > >Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 22:48:51 -0800 > > > > > > > >--> RV-List message posted by: Paul Eastham > > > > > > > >Hi everyone, > > > > I just finished riveting most of my VS and oddly enough I had more > > > >problems with my squeezed rivets than the bucked ones. A few of the > > > >skin-to-rib rivets squeezed over to the side just enough to reveal > > > >bits of the dimple edge, and sometimes the hole inside that. The > > > >cause was apparently imperfect alignment of the holes by just a hair > > > >-- I couldn't get it any closer despite a lot of pushing and prodding. > > > >(which is also a mystery...it all fit together fine when drilling...) > > > > > > > > The mil-spec sounds like either of these cases is unacceptable > > > >(though if you hold your rivet gauge up to an empty dimple you will > > > >see it takes a perfectly centered rivet to fully obscure the outer > > > >dimple edge) However, my rivets don't look totally "clinched", > > > >like a bent-over nail or oval in shape. They are circular but slightly > > > >offset. > > > > > > > > Are either of these sorts of rivets anything to worry about? > > > >Especially when drilling them out does not improve the problem -- > > > >since the hole isn't perfectly perpendicular to the dimple, they tend > > > >to slide over again. Drilling to #30 and using an oops rivet leaves > > > >an uneven dimple on the shop side but it doesn't clinch any more. > > > > > > > >Thanks, > > > >Paul > > > > > > > >PS: is it just me, or do the (Avery) dimple dies leave a hole that's > > > >slightly too big for the shaft of the AD3 rivet? Is this normal? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MSN Shopping upgraded for the holidays! Snappier product search... > > > http://shopping.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:34:53 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: UPS to Garmin to Discontinued :-( From: "Duberstein, Allen" --> RV-List message posted by: "Duberstein, Allen" Anyone know if Garmin will support experimental installations? They did not want to get involved with their original product line.... allen Allen Duberstein ODC Processor Architecture 503-712-2323 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Bryan Subject: Re: RV-List: UPS to Garmin to Discontinued :-( --> RV-List message posted by: "Tim Bryan" Boy that hurts. I already own a full panel of the UPS AT stuff. SL15 MX20 GX60 SL30 SL70 Not flying quite yet. Already worth less. don't like Microsoft either primarily because of their tactics. Don't even begin to believe they would tell you their plans. They won't till announced Do Not Archive! Tim Bryan RV6 N616TB -------Original Message------- From: rv-list@matronics.com Subject: RV-List: UPS to Garmin to Discontinued :-( --> RV-List message posted by: Bobby Hester I call Gulf Coast Avionics today to get a quote on some radios so I would have an idea of what it's going to cost when the time comes. I was hoping to start with a SL30 and a SL70 and later add a GX60. I was told that the GX60 has been discontinued and that Garmin was going to stop make the UPS line. Damn! I sure don't want to buy something that will be discontinued before I ever get to use it. Is this news correct? I haven't seen any news to this affect. Guess I'll end up going with Garmin stuff GNS-430, GTX-327 -- Surfing the Web from Hopkinsville, KY Visit my web site at: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite/ RV7A Slowbuild wings-QB Fuse :-) . = == == == == ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 10:43:02 AM PST US From: Ken Harrill Subject: RE: RV-List: Alternate static sources --> RV-List message posted by: Ken Harrill My solution was to install a "T" in the VSI static port. One leg goes to the static line. The other I pointed down and put a cap on it. If needed, I can easily reach under the panel and unscrew the cap for alternate static air. Ken Harrill RV-6, 285 hours -----Original Message----- From: Paul Besing [mailto:azpilot@extremezone.com] Subject: Re: RV-List: Alternate static sources --> RV-List message posted by: "Paul Besing" I guess it comes down to $$. How much is a VSI? Probably more than $200. I'd opt for the static option in the pitot. Or, you can save the money now, and then roll the dice. Personally, I would roll the dice. In a pinch, you could break the glass, but it is not likely that you will ice over both static ports unless you really plan on flying some hard IFR, in my opinion. Don't want to start a debate on IFR flight, but I think too much redunancy is overkill. We train for things to fail, so deal with what you have, and maintain an adequate balance of how much redunancy you really need. Bob Knuckolls book describes this in detail with his electrical system. Design it right, build it right, and put in minimal backup, and you shouldn't have Murphy come visit you. Paul Besing RV-6A Sold RV-10 Soon http://www.lacodeworks.com/besing Kitlog Pro Builder's Log Software http://www.kitlog.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stanley Blanton" Subject: RE: RV-List: Alternate static sources > --> RV-List message posted by: "Stanley Blanton" > > > A question for all you IFR guys. I plan to build my RV-9A for IFR and to > use two fuselage static ports (linked so as to average out any slip error). > My question is one of redundancy. Is there a need with this arrangement to > have yet a third port for redundancy? A heated pitot is the way I'm > thinking (at least it would be a source that wouldn't ice over). What are > the odds of both fuselage ports freezing or clogging at the same time since > if one did, the other would be the alternate? Has it happened to anyone? > I'm wondering if the price delta of $200 between with and without static in > the pitot is worth it or if in the very rare instance I can just break the > VSI glass. Any input would be greatly appreciated! Thanks! > > Doug Fischer > 90706 > > I'm planning on putting a tee in the line in the cabin and installing an > accessible fuel drain valve that can be locked in the open position. SAF-AIR > pn. 1250 would fit the bill. > > > Stan Blanton > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 10:51:13 AM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Cure for Slimybellyosis? re-tittled: PCV and Lycomings --> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com Thanks to all who chimed in on this- and yes, I know it's PCV- that's what I get for posting at 1:00 a.m.- I correct folks on that one myself! Soooooo- I will get a separator. Wick's has one for $40 and another for $60. Anybody recommend either of these, or suggest a good one? Following is just more discussion about PCV- delete now if uninterested! I especially want to thank Jim for his detailed explanation, but am confused about the reference to the gases venting to the intake manifold through some kind of a metering valve. So I went on a field trip to the driveway. I find that on my '88 Chevy pickup that the vent goes from the valve cover to the PCV valve located on the air cleaner can, just inside of the round pleated paper filter and therefore upstream of the throttle plate and exposed to slightly less that atmospheric pressure due to losses from the intake ducting and air filter. But this still places the crankcase gasses at a higher pressure. I had always been under the impression (erroneously, perhaps) that the valve itself was merely a check valve to prevent gasses from flowing back into the crankcase, possibly from a backfire? Anyway, this is what I was considering for my O-320. Next I investigated my '96 Chevy pickup (hey, it's Tennessee, OK?! I had a Beemer when I lived in Atlanta!) and found it has TWO hoses from the valve covers, one on each side. One of them is a simple tube, maybe 5/8", that simply routes to the plastic box on top of the throttle body with no valve whatsoever, unless it's buried in the valve cover somehow. The other one does route to some kind of device attached to the intake manifold. Perhaps this is the metering device Jim refers to, but for what purpose and why in combination with the other vent, is unknown to me. The reference someone else made to the large volume of oil in the blow-by of air-cooled engines is possibly a good reason not to do this as I would imagine some oil would condense in the breather hose and run down into the air box after shutdown. Thanks for the discussion- you folks paid your list-dues yet? From The PossumWorks in TN Mark ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 10:58:37 AM PST US From: Jim Sears Subject: RV-List: EAA Young Eagles hits a million! --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears I know some of you were interested. It was reported today that we have finally hit the magic one million Young Eagles mark. Having been a part of that, I'm feeling very proud, right now. :-) Jim Sears in KY do not archive ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 11:53:39 AM PST US From: Jim Oke Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy frame painting. --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Oke Gray is almost the universal colour for most "professional" cockpits from fighters to airline big-iron. One assumes that the people who make and sell the really big $$ aircraft know what they are doing. This is the sort of ambiance that most RV-builders seem to aspire to so no surprise about the number of grey cockpit interiors out there in RV-land. Some of the more recent Boeing cockpits use an overall tan colour scheme with different shades of tan depending on location (panel, seats, console, etc.). I have read that the shrinks found overall earth tones to be more restful on the eyes for long duration flights instead of grey. Wood-grain mac-tac is always an option for those so inclined! :-) Jim Oke RV-6A C-GKGZ (gray interior) Winnipeg, MB ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy frame painting. > --> RV-List message posted by: "Tim Bryan" > > Dana, > > Keep it at altitude and the heat won't be a problem. That's where they > belong anyway. As to the interior color: Mine is a Safety Blue. (couldn't > do grey) I painted the inside of the outside skirt with the outside color > and painted the inside of the inside skirt with the interior color. With > all of the lightening holes in there you can see both colors and it softens > the contrast between the inside and outside... When you see it. > > Tim Bryan > RV-6 (with a -7 inside skirt brace) > N616TB > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: rv-list@matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 23:36:17 > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy frame painting. > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Darwin N. Barrie" > > Don't know what it is but after looking at hundreds of RV's over the past > few months the ones with gray interiors just don't look finished. Take no > offense some of them were great looking interior paint jobs. But... if you > can paint gray you can paint white, blue....... Ever own a $60K plus car > where the interior metal was gray. I can't see spending 3-9K on an exterior > paint job then paint the interior with $70 bucks worth of gray. So why not > give our pride and joy the color it deserves. > > LOL.. Darwin > Beautiful White interior > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Larry Bowen" > To: > Subject: RE: RV-List: Canopy frame painting. > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" > > > > I resemble that! (what's wrong with gray?) > > > > - > > Larry Bowen, RV-8 finish, recently painted inside of canopy skirts gray, > > to match the interior... > > Larry@BowenAero.com > > http://BowenAero.com > > Do not archive > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Darwin N. Barrie [mailto:ktlkrn@cox.net] > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 11:47 PM > > > To: rv-list@matronics.com > > > Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy frame painting. > > > > > > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Darwin N. Barrie" > > > > > > I painted mine the interior color, but prolly should have > > > painted them the outside color. At least they aren't gray!! > > > > > > Bring that thing to AZ next summer so we can watch it melt > > > into a ball of molten metal. > > > > > > Darwin N. Barrie > > > Chandler AZ > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Dana Overall" > > > To: > > > Subject: RV-List: Canopy frame painting. > > > > > > > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" > > > > > > > > Whoa back to buildling:-) > > > > > > > > OK, I think everyone knows I am painting by 7 black. I know, I'tll > > > > blow > > > up > > > > and look like the Airbus at Oshkosh, I'll be able to fry > > > breakfast at > > > > SNF > > > on > > > > the wings and my shoes will melt climbing aboard but so be it. > > > > > > > > My canopy frame is now painted black but I'd like some input on the > > > > side skirts. Most will think it's anal but here goes. > > > > > > > > I want to avoid being able to "look through" the canopy and see the > > > > inside of the outer canopy skirt and inside canopy skirt. Can you > > > > actually see this area when all is said and done? > > > > > > > > What did everyone else do on the outside of the side and rear canopy > > > skirts, > > > > just mask at the canopy and fire away with the HVLP?? > > > > > > > > Did anyone else paint the inside of the inner and outer > > > canopy skirts > > > before > > > > riveting these together and bolting the canopy to the frame > > > and skirts > > > > or > > > is > > > > it a waste of effort (like I haven't wasted a sh$tload, or > > > is that a > > > > boatload, of time already)? > > > > > > > > > > > > Dana Overall > > > > Richmond, KY > > > > RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" > > > > Finish kit > > > > Buying Instruments. Hangar flying my Dynon. > > > http://rvflying.tripod.com > > > > do not archive > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 12:12:33 PM PST US From: Knicholas2@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: MY FOURTH FLIGHT (quite long) --> RV-List message posted by: Knicholas2@aol.com Doug, My plane sits just a few miles south of you in Puyallup awaiting a prop and bolting on the wings. Otherwise she is ready. In (hopefully) a few months I can join you in the cafe on your field and toast one another's planes. Thanks for the encouragement. Kim Nicholas RV9A - gettin' there...... DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:01:47 PM PST US From: jacklockamy@att.net Subject: RV-List: FloScan sensor in cabin tunnel --> RV-List message posted by: jacklockamy@att.net I'd like to install my fuel flow sensor (FloScan from Grand Rapids w/EIS- 4000) in the cabin tunnel running from the sparbox to the firewall (RV-7A). I would install an in-line fuel filter just after the Van's fuel selector valve, then the FloScan, inline up to the facet electric fuel pump mounted inside the cabin on the firewall. Nice straight run, easy to maintain/access and not located on the forward side of the firewall (heat). Has anyone else tried this AND been successful? My only concern is when I read that the 'wires' on the sensor must be mounted "UP" and with this tunnel installation the wires would be horizontal. Spoke with GRT this afternoon and they said the location and installation sounded great but were unsure whether or not the having the sensor mounted horizontal would cause bubbles to be created in the sensor thus causing a possible flucuation/error in the fuel flow readings. Comments and ideas welcomed. Jack Lockamy Camarillo, CA RV-7A QB ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:06:31 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: RE: RV-List: AHRS vs mechanical gyros --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton >--> RV-List message posted by: "Glen Matejcek" > > 3 I bought some engine sensors from GRT. Best bang for the >buck, IMHO. While discussing some details with one of their techs, >he asked me what I was going to hook them up to. When I told him >BMA, he immediately told me that the BMA system WOULD NOT FUNCTION >WITHOUT GPS LOCK. I didn't tell him I'd already done lots of hand >held 'aerobatics' with the box without even attaching the GPS >antenna. I just asked him how I could loose the whole constellation >at once. He had no answer. There are several ways to lose the GPS signal due to a single failure - problem with the antenna, problem with the coax from the antenna, lose of power to the GPS unit, interference with the GPS signal from an on-board source, interference with the GPS signal from an external source, etc. I have been flying with GPS during flight tests and operational since 1994, and I have seen many cases where the GPS capability has been lost for short periods. So, I think you need to be sure that whatever avionics and procedures are used allow for a continued safe flight and landing without a GPS signal. It is quite possible that the BMA EFIS systems would still be useable in a degraded mode without a GPS input, but it would be wise to check this out via a flight test. -- Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/ ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 02:20:59 PM PST US From: "Dana Overall" Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy frame painting. --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" >From: Jim Oke .). I have read that the shrinks found overall earth tones to be more >restful on the eyes for long duration flights instead of grey. How 'bout gold is that earth tone enough. If it isn't I guess I'll just have to wear "earth shoes" (remember those). Thanks for all the replies. It is obvious you can see the inside of the outer and inner side skins through the canopy. Black it is!! Dana Overall Richmond, KY RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" Finish kit Buying Instruments. Hangar flying my Dynon. http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive From Beethoven to the Rolling Stones, your favorite music is always playing on MSN Radio Plus. No ads, no talk. Trial month FREE! ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 02:27:22 PM PST US From: GLCole5475@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy frame painting. --> RV-List message posted by: GLCole5475@aol.com It seems to me that all those airliners with gray interiors also have a rather solid ceiling to block out the sunlight, unlike our clear canopies. Gary ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 02:44:04 PM PST US From: Ron Patterson Subject: RV-List: Fwd: Re: Watsonville --> RV-List message posted by: Ron Patterson Note: forwarded message attached. From: Ron Patterson Subject: Re: Watsonville --0-1554119745-1068762801=:44468 Hi Mickey, I think if you can learn from a book, (I don't do that so well...more of a visual learner) then I think you will be fine. The bottom line is...no circut breakers, no avionics master switch necessary, use fuse blocks (2 or 3) for main bus, essential buss and possibly battery buss. Use a central grounding block under the panel with push on connectors. He talks about not preventing failure but being "failure tolerant", ie: if the main bus goes down, you have the essential bus to fly on to destination (or until you can safely land). repairs are done on the ground, not toubleshot in the air. I'm sure if Bob were to summarize his ideas for you he could do much better than me. Indeed, get the book! many of his ideas are there. Mickey Coggins wrote: Hi Ron, Did you learn things that are not in the book? I'm wondering if it is worth flying to the session in Ft. Worth from Switzerland. If it is just a matter of me buckling down and really carefully reading the book, that would be a better use of my time, I believe. Thanks, Mickey -- Mickey Coggins GSM: +41-79-210-3762 FAX: +41-86-079-210-3762 http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 Empennage complete, waiting for wings to arrive --0-1554119745-1068762801=:44468 Hi Mickey, I think if you can learn from a book, (I don't do that so well...more of a visual learner) then I think you will be fine. The bottom line is...no circut breakers, no avionics master switch necessary, use fuse blocks (2 or 3) for main bus, essential buss and possibly battery buss. Use a central grounding block under the panel with push on connectors. He talks about not preventing failure but being "failure tolerant", ie: if the main bus goes down, you have the essential bus to fly on to destination (or until you can safely land). repairs are done on the ground, not toubleshot in the air. I'm sure if Bob were to summarize his ideas for you he could do much better than me. Indeed, get the book! many of his ideas are there. Mickey Coggins mick@rv8.ch wrote: Hi Ron, Did you learn things that are not in the book? I'm wondering if it is worth flying to the session in Ft. Worth from Switzerland. If it is just a matter of me buckling down and really carefully reading the book, that would be a better use of my time, I believe. Thanks, Mickey -- Mickey Coggins GSM: +41-79-210-3762 FAX: +41-86-079-210-3762 http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 Empennage complete, waiting for wings to arrive --0-1554119745-1068762801=:44468-- ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 03:04:09 PM PST US From: "Mail Filter" Subject: RV-List: RV Operating Costs? --> RV-List message posted by: "Mail Filter" I am looking to purchase a flying RV for the purpose of time building. I figure that if I am going to spend 1,000 hrs in a plane, I might as well enjoy it. Since I am looking to put a great deal of hours on a plane in short period of time, operating costs is prime concern. If anyone can give me an idea what their hourly and fixed costs are I would greatly appreciate it. I know this will vary greatly among individuals, but it will give me some method of comparing the RV purchase to other alternatives. I am also curious as to what others are paying for insurance and annuals (if you pay for annuals). Thanks, Chad VonHoven e-mail: mailfilter@bellsouth.net ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 03:05:31 PM PST US From: Scott Bilinski Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy frame painting. --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski I painted the inside of my plane the same color grey as the powder coating and dont notice any reflections...............Then of course I only have 1.4 hours on the plane and am so darned excited that I probably dont notice. >It seems to me that all those airliners with gray interiors also have a >rather solid ceiling to block out the sunlight, unlike our clear canopies. > >Gary Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 03:36:49 PM PST US From: "Jim Bower" Subject: Re: RV-List: clinched rivets? --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Bower" Yeah, that 4" yoke weighs a TON! I have a 2.5" yoke as well, and it will fit in most of the places you need. You will really enjoy the pneumo squeezer once you are working in the confines of the fuselage!!! Happy riveting! Jim >From: Paul Eastham >Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: clinched rivets? >Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 20:12:27 -0800 > >--> RV-List message posted by: Paul Eastham > >I do have the pneumatic squeezer, and I agree that it is money well >spent. You might still be right though...my squeezer is rather heavy >and the rivets in question were in awkward spots (also throw in a long >4" yoke), so there's certainly plenty of room for things to come out >of square. > >The ongoing problem, however, is once the first rivet leans over, it >squashes the dimple a little in that direction, such that >subsequent rivets seem destined to follow in the same direction. > >Paul > >On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 02:35:03AM +0000, Jim Bower wrote: > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Bower" > > > > Paul, > > > > Here's my $0.02 worth. The observation that your squeezed rivets are >worse > > than your driven ones could be blamed on the squeezer. (I'm assuming >you > > are using a hand squeezer.) You have a rivet and sets at one end of an >18" > > handle pair, and you are at the other end squeezing the handles >together. > > It's hard to keep the squeezer yoke and sets in line AND maintain the >right > > pressure on the rivet head to keep it against the material. This gets >worse > > with 1/8" rivets. > > > > The best $350.00 to $400.00 you will EVER spend on your project is a > > pneumatic squeezer. You can operate it with one hand while you maintain > > perfect alignment on the rivet. You aren't at arm's length trying to >keep > > that long squeezer lined up. I haven't touched my hand squeezer since I > > bought the pneumatic one over 2 years ago. > > > > Not only does it help ensure better rivets, but you will have a lot more >fun > > dimpling, too! > > > > Jim Bower > > St. Louis, MO > > RV-6A Fuselage > > > > > > >From: Paul Eastham > > >Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com > > >To: rv-list@matronics.com > > >Subject: RV-List: clinched rivets? > > >Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 22:48:51 -0800 > > > > > >--> RV-List message posted by: Paul Eastham > > > > > >Hi everyone, > > > I just finished riveting most of my VS and oddly enough I had more > > >problems with my squeezed rivets than the bucked ones. A few of the > > >skin-to-rib rivets squeezed over to the side just enough to reveal > > >bits of the dimple edge, and sometimes the hole inside that. The > > >cause was apparently imperfect alignment of the holes by just a hair > > >-- I couldn't get it any closer despite a lot of pushing and prodding. > > >(which is also a mystery...it all fit together fine when drilling...) > > > > > > The mil-spec sounds like either of these cases is unacceptable > > >(though if you hold your rivet gauge up to an empty dimple you will > > >see it takes a perfectly centered rivet to fully obscure the outer > > >dimple edge) However, my rivets don't look totally "clinched", > > >like a bent-over nail or oval in shape. They are circular but slightly > > >offset. > > > > > > Are either of these sorts of rivets anything to worry about? > > >Especially when drilling them out does not improve the problem -- > > >since the hole isn't perfectly perpendicular to the dimple, they tend > > >to slide over again. Drilling to #30 and using an oops rivet leaves > > >an uneven dimple on the shop side but it doesn't clinch any more. > > > > > >Thanks, > > >Paul > > > > > >PS: is it just me, or do the (Avery) dimple dies leave a hole that's > > >slightly too big for the shaft of the AD3 rivet? Is this normal? > > > > > > > > > > MSN Shopping upgraded for the holidays! Snappier product search... > > http://shopping.msn.com > > > > > > > > > > > > From Beethoven to the Rolling Stones, your favorite music is always playing on MSN Radio Plus. No ads, no talk. Trial month FREE! ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 03:39:23 PM PST US From: rob ray Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy frame painting. --> RV-List message posted by: rob ray The F16 has a gray interior but a great air conditioner to offset the heat. With the hot Bama sun over my RV4, I just climb until the outside air is tolerable (75 or less) and it doesn't matter what color it is. RR GLCole5475@aol.com wrote: --> RV-List message posted by: GLCole5475@aol.com It seems to me that all those airliners with gray interiors also have a rather solid ceiling to block out the sunlight, unlike our clear canopies. Gary --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 04:10:38 PM PST US From: rob ray Subject: Re: RV-List: Cure for Slimybellyosis? re-tittled: PCV and Lycomings --> RV-List message posted by: rob ray Mark; I bought the " shame on you" for a slimy belly separator two years ago and have no complaints. I have also had a report on the Van's separator from a friend. It's built by some RV guys and works well. It's also cheaper than mine($157). I had the Aircraft Spuce cheapie(the one for experimentals only) on a tailwind which works too but is alot bigger. On the new one I welded a nipple on one of my oil return lines and attached it to the exit nipple on the separator with a rubber line. Works fine and yes, the belly stays way clean. RR Fiveonepw@aol.com wrote: --> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com Thanks to all who chimed in on this- and yes, I know it's PCV- that's what I get for posting at 1:00 a.m.- I correct folks on that one myself! Soooooo- I will get a separator. Wick's has one for $40 and another for $60. Anybody recommend either of these, or suggest a good one? Following is just more discussion about PCV- delete now if uninterested! I especially want to thank Jim for his detailed explanation, but am confused about the reference to the gases venting to the intake manifold through some kind of a metering valve. So I went on a field trip to the driveway. I find that on my '88 Chevy pickup that the vent goes from the valve cover to the PCV valve located on the air cleaner can, just inside of the round pleated paper filter and therefore upstream of the throttle plate and exposed to slightly less that atmospheric pressure due to losses from the intake ducting and air filter. But this still places the crankcase gasses at a higher pressure. I had always been under the impression (erroneously, perhaps) that the valve itself was merely a check valve to prevent gasses from flowing back into the crankcase, possibly from a backfire? Anyway, this is what I was considering for my O-320. Next I investigated my '96 Chevy pickup (hey, it's Tennessee, OK?! I had a Beemer when I lived in Atlanta!) and found it has TWO hoses from the valve covers, one on each side. One of them is a simple tube, maybe 5/8", that simply routes to the plastic box on top of the throttle body with no valve whatsoever, unless it's buried in the valve cover somehow. The other one does route to some kind of device attached to the intake manifold. Perhaps this is the metering device Jim refers to, but for what purpose and why in combination with the other vent, is unknown to me. The reference someone else made to the large volume of oil in the blow-by of air-cooled engines is possibly a good reason not to do this as I would imagine some oil would condense in the breather hose and run down into the air box after shutdown. Thanks for the discussion- you folks paid your list-dues yet? From The PossumWorks in TN Mark --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 04:42:45 PM PST US From: "Stanley Blanton" Subject: RV-List: Garmin 295GPS for sale --> RV-List message posted by: "Stanley Blanton" I'm posting this for a friend. Stan Blanton For Sale: Garmin 295 GPS Includes memory card, streetmap database, topo database. $900 Please contact: Rick Lies rliles@indmolding.com Wk. 806-474-1013 (Wk.) CST Fax 806-474-1168 if interested. ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 05:05:06 PM PST US From: Charlie & Tupper England Subject: Re: RV-List: GPS-less flight with the Trio Avionics EZ Pilot Autopilot --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie & Tupper England Sam Buchanan wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan > > > > >>Charlie & Tupper England wrote: >> >> >>>I have a question based on what I read on their web site. Have either >>>of you disabled your GPS feed to the a/p to check its reaction? The >>>web site seems to indicate that there is no backup for loss of heading >>>info from the GPS. >>> >>> > > >After Charlie's "challenge" < :-) > I made a flight this evening for >the purpose of flying the EZ-Pilot without GPS to see how it would react >to loss of reference data. > >After getting the plane established on heading and altitude in light >turbulence with the EZ-Pilot engaged, I turned off the Lowrance Airmap >100 and watched as the EZ-Pilot display indicated "No GPS". For two >minutes the flight continued as before except for a drift of about five >degrees in heading. I could not feel a difference in the way the >auto-pilot, now wing leveler, kept the wings level, even in the light chop. > >I then rolled the plane 45 degrees left followed by a 45 degree roll to >the right. While the plane was in the right bank I released the stick >and the plane rolled back left, then a few degrees left of center, then >back to wings level. > >Next was a 180 degree standard rate turn to the right. As I neared the >end of the maneuver, I released the stick with the plane still banked to >the right; the plane rolled a few degrees past center then settled back >into wings level. > >This is getting interesting! Next came a 45 degree bank to the left for >90 degrees of yaw followed by a similar turn back to the right. While >the plane was in the 45 degree right bank, I released the stick, the >plane recovered, but the brutality was beginning to take its toll on the >solid-state gyro. This time the wings stayed tilted about five degrees >to the left and the plane began a very slow, one degree/sec yaw to the left. > >I banked the plane a few more times and the gyro finally began to get a >little "drunk"; it would no longer return absolutely to wings level and >the plane was now doing very shallow turns instead of flying straight. I >could have used the trim switch to straighten out the flight path if >desired, but that was not the point of this test. > >However, at this point, the EZ-Pilot had been flying the plane for over >twelve minutes and had endured many abrupt maneuvers; even though the >system could no longer fly the plane straight without retrimming, it >still had no difficulty keeping the plane upright. Maximum "lean" angles >I saw even with the gyro saturated was less than ten degrees. > >It could be that if the test had continued for an extended period of >time with more maneuvers, the system would have finally lost its sense >of balance. But I was very impressed at how long the EZ-Pilot can keep >the plane upright even though it has no reference to gravity or heading. > >If a momentary glitch occurred in the EZ-Pilot GPS data stream, the >pilot would never even notice it. And if GPS goes down for an extended >period of time, the EZ-Pilot gyro will give the pilot plenty of time to >get his hands out of his pockets, the coffee mug back in the cupholder, >the CD out of the player, so he can reset the trim and continue the >flight, all without causing any alarm or stress. > >I continue to be impressed at the solidity of this system. > >Sam Buchanan >http://thervjournal.com > Thanks, Sam. Their web site seems to hint that it will slowly get lost without GPS info. It's good to know that it will still keep the wings level without external assistance. Charlie ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 06:03:56 PM PST US From: Pete Waters Subject: Re: RV-List: RV Operating Costs? --> RV-List message posted by: Pete Waters Chad, For my RV-4 with an O-360A1A (carburated, one Elec Ign, one magneto, fixed pitch): - Roughly 8 Gal / hour for gas. Compute fuel cost based on your local price. - About 1 quart of oil every five hours. Cost negligible. - Loan: ~400/month for 15 years on $45K financed price. Getting financing can be tricky, since the majority of lenders who finance airplanes won't touch homebuilts. When I was initially looking last year, NAFCO was about the only show in town. I actually got a lead on a small-town bank in Iowa, First National Bank Midwest (1-888-559-8892, www.fnbmidwest.com), that was run / owned by a couple of pilots who were starting to think that this situation might be an unfilled market niche. I.e. they were thinking of expanding their aircraft-loan policies to include homebuilts if the right case came along. After I talk to them (specifically, to one of the bank officers named, honest, Ed Sullivan), they thought about it decided that I had the right combination of flight experience (and associated low insurance risk) and financial situation like debt-to-income ratio. So, I got the first loan they ever gave on an experimental aircraft. It helped that I was buying an RV, where the numbers-in-service and safety record exceed some certificated aircraft. Note, though, that their website currently says, no hombuilts, os either they changed their policy or their website is out-of-date. But, they haven't called in my loan, so go figure. You lose nothing by asking. (BTW, my debt-to-income ratio has changed considerably.) - Insurance: ~ 1400 / year, via SkySmith Brokerage. Cheaper overall if you pay all in one payment, although you can pay in monthly installments for a surcharge. Cost is based on flight experience / hours, ratings held, and, if applicable, tailwheel time. Your lender will insist that you have hull insurance on the airplane so they can recoup some of the loan if it gets wrecked. If you can buy the plane outright and don't have a lender insisting that you get hull insurance, you can carry just liability for a lot less. I wouldn't do it, but that's just me. - Hangar: totally dependent on where you live. I'm in a small desert town and my tiny $135/month hangar is the cheapest I know of anywhere. You can drive the hangar price down by sharing with somebody. You can eliminate it entirely by tying the airplane down outside, but that might hurt the resale value and the increased insurance rates will offset at least some of the savings. Also, every time you hear news of a thunderstorm hitting the airport your nerves will jangle and you'll end up driving out there to check on your baby, I mean, your investment. Most important: many airports have hangar waiting lists lasting YEARS. Get on your airport's waiting list NOW if your airport is one of those, even if you haven't selected the airplane yet. This costs nothing and you can always cancel later. Maintenance: during the pre-purchase inspection, I had some knowledgeable folks look over the airplane as best they could, but few, if any, sellers will let a potential buyer really rip an airplane open prior to the check clearing. So, right after buying, I had an A&P do a full, certified-airplane style annual inspection on the airplane and strip it down to parade rest, so I could really get a look inside the guts of it. It turned out to need $700 worth of exhaust rework, a new starter, some new wiring, and some other stuff. All in all, with labor, this cost about $3000. I beleive (hope) that this was a "bow wave" of maintenance that corrected some stuff that probably should have been corrected by the previous owners. We'll see at the next annual if this is true. Routine maintenance: do the oil changes yourself (and send the oil samples out for metal analysis) ever 25 hours. You'll need an altimeter / transponder and ELT check every two years (probably about $250 total).. The nice thing about homebuilts is, you can do the work yourself if you have the time, skill, and confidence to do so. Since you're not the builder, you have to get an A&P to do the yearly condition inspection, but if you go nuts and decide that you want to change the engine or wings yourself, you're legally allowed to do it as long as you file paperwork with the FAA afterward. Not that this is smart, but stupidity, while often fatal, is not always illegal. Three final points: one, if you haven't already, buy at least one book or video on how to buy an airplane. There are numerous samples of both. I read "Airplane Ownership" by Ron Wanttaja, available through Amazon, which covered not just the purchase of the plane, but also owenership issues for the first year; and the video, "Airplane Buying Advice from the Experts", available at http://www.aeroprice.com/store/video.htm. These aren't the only ones available, but I liked them. Two, AOPA has a Airplane Buyer's package that they will send to you free if you're a member. Just call and ask for it. If you're not a member of AOPA for some unfathomable reason, the cost of a year's membership is offset by the value of this packet alone. Third, if at all possible, buy your RV from the builder! I bought an RV-4 that was built in 1988. I'm the fourth owner. The guy I bought it from (third owner) was an airline pilot who commuted in it for about two years. The previous owners (second owners) had it for about ten. The builder (first owner) I haven't been able to track down; I believe he may be deceased (hopefully not in an airplane crash). The plane came with complete logbooks but little else -- no builder's log, no wiring diagrams, no parts list, no operating manual. My instincts told me it was a solid airplane and that's been borne out over the last year of flying it, but I'm having to do a lot of reverse engineering to figure out, down to the part and serial-number level, what exactly is IN this thing, because when something needs to be replaced I can't just open a manual or have an FBO mechanic look in the Cessna or Piper parts list. I gather that the homebuilding community has gotten better on doc umenting the construction of their airplanes than my airplane's builder did in 1988, so try to buy an RV with detailed records, i.e. a builder's log, construction photographs, part's list, etc. These documents should be included in the purchase price of the airplane, just like the standard logbooks, Ideally, if you buy an RV, buy it from the folks who built it, and ask them if you can keep their phone number handy after the sale when you have a question. One really final point... you say you just want an airplane to build time in. I interpret this to mean, go to the airport, jump in it, fly, land, go home. There's nothing wrong with this philosophy, but most homebuilders I've met don't have it. Because each airplane is unique, you have to really get familiar with it. You have to know it and understand it because if you don't, no one else does. In this respect, it's actually more like a horse, with a unique personality, than a motorcycle off an assembly line. I'm not trying to get all metaphysical here but that's my best comparison. If you can find a well-built RV that's as well-documented as a production airplane, or can call the builder whenever you have a question, this might not be true, but, for all their flaws, the standardization of certificated airplanes does give them better "show up and drive" capability than that found in some unique homebuilts. Factory airplanes have an "information infrastructure" that i s maintained by the company. We rarely think much about this infrastructure -- we've always taken it for granted because it was always there. Homebuilts, like all machines, need this kind of information infrastructure too, but for the homebuilt it must be maintained by YOU. This takes effort. Factor it into your decision of whether to buy a homebuilt or a factory plane for your timebuilding mission. And, one really, truly, honest-to-gosh final point... caveat emptor. There are some great homebuilts out there, but there's also some scary junk. Join an EAA Chapter if you haven't already, hook up with the local EAA Tech Advisor, preferably one who's built an RV, and have him do the pre-purchase inspection on your candidate RV. A local A&P who does Cessnas and Pipers won't know what to look for. This Tech Counselor could also do the pre-purchase test flight, since he or she will know the differences between a good and not-so-good RV and you might not. Fly in the back seat or right seat with him by all means, but get somebody who's looked at a LOT of RVs to help you. If it costs you 500 bucks it's money well spent. This answer is probably a lot more than you expected (or maybe wanted), but I spent a lot of effort in 2001 learning a lot of this with little guidance. Just trying to pass along what I learned. If you want hear me ramble on more, email me off-list and I'll forward my phone number. Pedro RV-4 S/N 967 N562PW ~ 840 hours (~ 70 of them flown by me) Mail Filter wrote: --> RV-List message posted by: "Mail Filter" I am looking to purchase a flying RV for the purpose of time building. I figure that if I am going to spend 1,000 hrs in a plane, I might as well enjoy it. Since I am looking to put a great deal of hours on a plane in short period of time, operating costs is prime concern. If anyone can give me an idea what their hourly and fixed costs are I would greatly appreciate it. I know this will vary greatly among individuals, but it will give me some method of comparing the RV purchase to other alternatives. I am also curious as to what others are paying for insurance and annuals (if you pay for annuals). Thanks, Chad VonHoven e-mail: mailfilter@bellsouth.net --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 07:19:04 PM PST US From: linn walters Subject: Re: RV-List: UPS to Garmin to Discontinued :-( --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters Art Glaser wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Art Glaser > >I do not think Garmin bought Terrra. Trimble? > Yeah, I do think you're right. Must have been a late night! Linn > >linn walters wrote: > > >Well, you should be concerned. Garmin did just that with the Terra >line. > ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 07:52:11 PM PST US From: HalBenjamin@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: clinched rivets? --> RV-List message posted by: HalBenjamin@aol.com In a message dated 11/12/2003 11:19:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, eastham@netapp.com writes: > I do have the pneumatic squeezer, and I agree that it is money well > spent. You might still be right though...my squeezer is rather heavy > and the rivets in question were in awkward spots (also throw in a long > 4" yoke), so there's certainly plenty of room for things to come out > of square. > Paul, I have and use both hand & pneumatic squeezers. The one thing I've found helpful when using squeezers is to break the operation into two parts. With the hand squeezer I hold the riveter head in place & start the rivet by squeezing with one hand first. That squeezes it just enough so that it doesn't tip. Then I finish the squeeze with both hands on the handles. With the pneumatic squeezer I hold the riveter head in place with one hand and move the lever slowly just enough to hold the rivet in place and then finish with full power if every thing feels right. Practice on some scraps.....I used Ruthie's cookie pans. Hmmmm....Maybe that's why she's my ex-wife. Rivets look good though! Hope this helps. Hal Benjamin RV-4, Long Island, NY Fuselage ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 11:00:17 PM PST US From: "hollandm" Subject: RV-List: Floscan in cabin tunnel --> RV-List message posted by: "hollandm" I'm build a 9A and considered putting a flowscan sensor and airflow performance filter in the floor tunnel between the fuel selector and facet pump. But you can't do this without modifying the tunnel cover since both the filter and flowscan are too large to fit under the stock tunnel. This will raise your floor and lead to a problem if you ever decide to level the cabin floor and install carpeting. I opted to put the flow scan between the facet pump and bulkhead fitting to the gascolator. Not an ideal location but still on the cold side of the firewall. No plans for further fuel filtering at the moment.