---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 11/16/03: 23 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:06 AM - Re: EAA Young Eagles paranoid concern.... (Jim Sears) 2. 02:34 AM - Re: Mashing Tape Removal (Doug Gray) 3. 05:21 AM - Re: Mashing Tape Removal from the manufacturer of our canopies (Dana Overall) 4. 06:10 AM - Re: Mashing Tape Removal from the manufacturer of our canopies (Curt Hoffman) 5. 07:43 AM - Fw: Re: Fw: bending 5/8" aluminum breather tubing (rob ray) 6. 07:44 AM - EAA Young Eagles paranoid concern.... (RV_8 Pilot) 7. 08:13 AM - Re: EAA Young Eagles paranoid concern.... (rob ray) 8. 08:31 AM - Re: bending 5/8" aluminum breather tubing (Gert) 9. 09:34 AM - Re: bending 5/8" aluminum breather tubing (WFACT01@aol.com) 10. 09:34 AM - rv-list bending tubing (smoothweasel@juno.com) 11. 09:40 AM - Re: Empennage manual update Page 8-7 (Condrey, Bob (US SSA)) 12. 09:49 AM - Builders Insurance Coverage (jgburns) 13. 10:30 AM - Re: Empennage manual update Page 8-7 (Dan Checkoway) 14. 11:30 AM - Re: Empennage manual update Page 8-7 (Kosta Lewis) 15. 01:08 PM - Re: Mashing Tape Removal from the manufacturer of our canopies (Metalplane@aol.com) 16. 01:33 PM - Re: EAA Young Eagles paranoid concern.... (Bruce Green) 17. 02:06 PM - Re: EAA Young Eagles paranoid concern.... (JOHN STARN) 18. 03:01 PM - Re: EAA Young Eagles paranoid concern.... (John) 19. 04:53 PM - Lycoming model codes (Gary B. Jacobs) 20. 06:38 PM - Re: fuselage longeron & skin overhang at aft bulkhead (Chris & Kellie Hand) 21. 07:08 PM - Re: Lycoming model codes (Jeff Point) 22. 08:24 PM - Re: Builders Insurance Coverage (Dean) 23. 09:59 PM - Rivets and rivet guns, etc. (Lyle Peterson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:06:46 AM PST US From: Jim Sears Subject: Re: RV-List: EAA Young Eagles paranoid concern.... --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears > I don't really want to start a flame war here but I want to explaine a > concern about Young Eagles and ANY other similar program. Liability. I am a > professional with my own business. My lawyer(s) have "strongly" recommended > that I not take kids and other people I don't know well flying due to liability. My > wife is a school teacher and she can't take school kids or scouts in our car > for similar reasons. If there is ANY accident I could lose everything. My > practice, my retirement, my plane... There is too mcuh to lose with greedy > lawyers and our current tort system. Signing a waiver is worthless - any lawyer > will tell you that you can't sign away your rights - especially a minor. > > You tell me that it can't happen? I can give many examples that it does. It > is a sad situation when someone is afraid to do something nice for fear of > being sued. > > Please no flames. Just wanted to express a concern. > Alas, what a terrible world some of us live in when our whole lives revolve around the fear of being sued. I know of some who will not sell their homebuilt aircraft because of the same reasons. Instead, they give them to a museum, cut them up for scrap, etc. Yes, a waiver is really worthless. Yes, there is always that chance that we may have an accident that could hurt someone during one of our Young Eagle flights. Yes, there is always that chance that we could sell an airplane to someone who will crash and die in it. Life is a risk; and, we live that risk every day. I'm sure you, or anyone else who has to make a living, will not give up what you do unless your insurance finally costs more than you make. I'm sure you won't quit driving because you need the transportation to get to and from work. I'm sure you know that if someone just walks onto your property and gets hurt, you can be sued; but, it still happens, whether you know about it or not. Life is a risk. As Jim said in another note, we are insured to cover liability. Each aircraft owner who participates must have a minimum level required by EAA before their insurance kicks in. Most of us have more than that minimum coverage required. I've learned from my past experiences of being on a board of directors for an organization that most legal actions end up settling for something within the limits of one's insurance coverage. Sure, it can go beyond those limits; but, that doesn't happen often. With the coverage I have on my RV, I'm comfortable that I can cover most injuries. In the event of death, insurance coverage can actually be lower because personal injury claims usually end up being more than death claims. This I learned as a member of the board of directors. Fortunately for one million plus kids who have become Young Eagles, and all of the kids who have been taken up outside the Young Eagles program, there are pilots who are not afraid of liability and are willing to take on some of life's risks to allow those children a free ride. Like you, I had to sort this out for myself and chose to become one of the guys who took the risk. Over 300 kids and many parents are glad I did and took them for a ride. Now, let's get to something that may be closer to your life. What if all of us felt the way you do? Who would be selling you RV parts so you can build your dream ship? Van wouldn't have taken the risk. Who would be out there to answer questions for you at your local EAA Chapter? Nobody would take the risk. Who would have gone to the trouble to answer questions for you on this list? Nobody would take the risk. Who would be willing to come to your house and help you build part, or all, of your airplane with you? Nobody would take the risk. Are you starting to see where this can lead to? Sometimes, we just have to ignore lawyers and stop having them rule our lives for us. Fortunately, most of us do that unless we really need one. Because of that, life goes on. No, this was not intended to be a flame; but, it was intended to give the other side of things. I know a chapter that wouldn't take up kids for the same reasons. I left that chapter and joined one that did. I'm glad I did, even though I left a group I really liked. Finally, they also saw the light and decided taking up kids is a good thing worth risking. I'm hoping that most of us on this list feel that it's worth the risk. Otherwise, those of us who have never gotten to fly in a RV before having one of our own may never know how good it is to own one because nobody will take the risk to take us up for that first flight in one. Now, that would be a shame. I'm sure those I've taken up are glad I was willing to risk it. Jim Sears in KY RV-6A N198JS EAA Tech Counselor do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:34:25 AM PST US From: Doug Gray Subject: Re: RV-List: Mashing Tape Removal --> RV-List message posted by: Doug Gray On the subject of caring for canopies I recommend a post to this list from Leo Davies on Feb 10,1999. Go check the archives for this post, subject was 'canopies and solvents and fibreglass and polyester and'. Message Number 51260 Doug Gray ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:21:00 AM PST US From: "Dana Overall" Subject: Re: RV-List: Mashing Tape Removal from the manufacturer of our canopies --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" >--> RV-List message posted by: "David Burton" > >It's the stuff you use to hold the rivets in place while back riveting :-) No harm done, I can take it:-) Actually I'm thinking it's what you are doing "while back riveting". Watcha doin Dad?..........Oh, just smashin rivets and "mashing tape". Dana Overall Richmond, KY RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" Finish kit Buying Instruments. Hangar flying my Dynon. http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive Crave some Miles Davis or Grateful Dead? Your old favorites are always playing on MSN Radio Plus. Trial month free! ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:10:03 AM PST US From: "Curt Hoffman" Subject: Re: RV-List: Mashing Tape Removal from the manufacturer of our canopies --> RV-List message posted by: "Curt Hoffman" Suppose all this time we have been eating what we mistakenly called mashed potatoes on Thanksgiving and they were really masked potatoes? Something to think about. Curt Hoffman RV-9A wings done for now- working on tail Quick build fuselage now in basement Piper Cherokee N5320W 1974 TR6 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dana Overall" Subject: Re: RV-List: Mashing Tape Removal from the manufacturer of our canopies > --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" > > >--> RV-List message posted by: "David Burton" > > > >It's the stuff you use to hold the rivets in place while back riveting :-) > > > No harm done, I can take it:-) Actually I'm thinking it's what you are > doing "while back riveting". Watcha doin Dad?..........Oh, just smashin > rivets and "mashing tape". > > > Dana Overall > Richmond, KY > RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" > Finish kit > Buying Instruments. Hangar flying my Dynon. > http://rvflying.tripod.com > do not archive > > Crave some Miles Davis or Grateful Dead? Your old favorites are always > playing on MSN Radio Plus. Trial month free! > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:43:19 AM PST US From: rob ray Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: RV-List: bending 5/8" aluminum breather tubing --> RV-List message posted by: rob ray fyi Note: forwarded message attached. --------------------------------- From: arvil@bellsouth.net Subject: Re: Fwd: RV-List: bending 5/8" aluminum breather tubing 6061-T6 will bend a lot easier , you can also use a peace of 5/8'' copper tubing from the hardware store, it bends real easy ! if you cant find a softer Alum. tubing ! Arvil rob ray wrote: > > > Note: forwarded message attached. > ------------------------------------------------- > AddressGuard > -------------------------------------------- > > S > bject: RV-List: bending 5/8" aluminum breather tubing > > Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 18:13:03 -0800 > From: "Dan Checkoway" > Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com > To: > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > > > Van's IO-360 FWF kit came with a breather tube, > FF-705, which appears to be > 2024T3 aluminum -- I'm not really sure of the > alloy/temper. Anyway, as it > comes, it's 5/8" tubing with an expanded (to > 3/4") flange on top to fit > inside the 3/4" ID rubber elbow they also > provide in the kit. > > Well, my IO-360 from Bart came with a smaller > 5/8" OD breather fitting...so > I just got some 5/8" ID rubber hose, and decided > to chop off the expanded > top of the aluminum tubing. My plan is to run > the rubber tubing from the > breather fitting, down the firewall, clamped to > the firewall with an adel > clamp, and then transition to alumimum tubing at > the bottom where it nears > the exhaust. Great so far... > > I need to make an "S" bend in the bottom of the > aluminum tubing so it can > jog around the engine mount and point at the > exhaust. Bending this tubing > is where my problem lies. I asked around and > nobody had a 5/8" tubing > bender. But fortunately when I was at Harbor > Freight today they had one for > $5.99. SCORE! > > NOT. No matter how slowly I take it or how oily > I make it, the thing puts > *kinks* on the inside of the tubing. It's no > real surprise, since the tool > is set up with like a 3" bend *diameter*. > Pretty aggressive. > > That's all a long-winded way of leading up to my > questions: > > - Does anybody know if the FF-705 breather tube > is 2024T3? > > - Assuming it is, will 6061T6 tubing be more > ductile? > > - Any tips and tricks on bending this "large" > tubing? > > - At least one builder said he went with rubber > hose all the way down to > within 1/4" of the exhaust and hasn't seen any > heat/melting issues. That > seems crazy to me, and I assume a length of > aluminum is definitely > prescribed here, but...sanity check? > > Thanks in advance, > )_( Dan > RV-7 N714D > http://www.rvproject.com > > > Month -- > Click on the > about this > your generous > Contributions > ads or any other > Forums. > http://www.matronics.com/chat > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm > http://www.matronics.com/search > http://www.matronics.com/chat > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > 6061-T6 will bend a lot easier , you can also use a peace of 5/8'' copper tubing from the hardware store, it bends real easy ! if you cant find a softer Alum. tubing ! Arvil rob ray wrote: Note: forwarded message attached. Subject: RV-List: bending 5/8" aluminum breather tubing Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 18:13:03 -0800 From: "Dan Checkoway" dan@rvproject.com> Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com To: rv-list@matronics.com> --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" dan@rvproject.com> Van's IO-360 FWF kit came with a breather tube, FF-705, which appears to be 2024T3 aluminum -- I'm not really sure of the alloy/temper. Anyway, as it comes, it's 5/8" tubing with an expanded (to 3/4") flange on top to fit inside the 3/4" ID rubber elbow they also provide in the kit. Well, my IO-360 from Bart came with a smaller 5/8" OD breather fitting...so I just got some 5/8" ID rubber hose, and decided to chop off the expanded top of the aluminum tubing. My plan is to run the rubber tubing from the breather fitting, down the firewall, clamped to the firewall with an adel clamp, and then transition to alumimum tubing at the bottom where it nears the exhaust. Great so far... I need to make an "S" bend in the bottom of the aluminum tubing so it can jog around the engine mount and point at the exhaust. Bending this tubing is where my problem lies. I asked around and nobody had a 5/8" tubing bender. But fortunately when I was at Harbor Freight today they had one for $5.99. SCORE! NOT. No matter how slowly I take it or how oily I make it, the thing puts *kinks* on the inside of the tubing. It's no real surprise, since the tool is set up with like a 3" bend *diameter*. Pretty aggressive. That's all a long-winded way of leading up to my questions: - Does anybody know if the FF-705 breather tube is 2024T3? - Assuming it is, will 6061T6 tubing be more ductile? - Any tips and tricks on bending this "large" tubing? - At least one builder said he went with rubber hose all the way down to within 1/4" of the exhaust and hasn't seen any heat/melting issues. That seems crazy to me, and I assume a length of aluminum is definitely prescribed here, but...sanity check? Thanks in advance, )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:44:59 AM PST US From: "RV_8 Pilot" Subject: RV-List: EAA Young Eagles paranoid concern.... tests=FROM_HAS_UNDERLINE_NUMS --> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" >If there is ANY accident I could lose everything. My > > practice, my retirement, my plane... A valid concern. I've given a few YE flights - not every weekend, but occasionally. Don't want to expose myself to the snakes too much. I accept the risk for several reasons - we need younger people in GA, I enjoy being able to give a kid a ride he/she will remember for a while, it spreads goodwill to the non-aviation community. But it still worries me. Thank the lawyers. Bryan Jones -8 Pearland, Texas do not archive ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:13:55 AM PST US From: rob ray Subject: Re: RV-List: EAA Young Eagles paranoid concern.... --> RV-List message posted by: rob ray Bryan; I was one of those airport kids standing at the fence begging for a ride and got one....Unfortunately in our society, responsibility for ones actions is passed into litigation. No amount of release forms or signatures on paper will prevent lawsuits where lucrative awards can sway common sense judgement. Lawsuit jury awards for ridiculous actions have ruined the insurance industry as well, driving rates through the ceiling. Does it stop me from giving kids rides? No. Does it concern me, yes. Is there anything we can do about it? Maybe over time, but for now we have to deal with lawyers. Every time I strap an airplane on my behind I am liable for my actions, whether it's just my butt or with 137 paying butts in back. Responsibility, it's just something we have to deal with as aviators. I for one think Shakespear was right. RR RV_8 Pilot wrote: --> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" >If there is ANY accident I could lose everything. My > > practice, my retirement, my plane... A valid concern. I've given a few YE flights - not every weekend, but occasionally. Don't want to expose myself to the snakes too much. I accept the risk for several reasons - we need younger people in GA, I enjoy being able to give a kid a ride he/she will remember for a while, it spreads goodwill to the non-aviation community. But it still worries me. Thank the lawyers. Bryan Jones -8 Pearland, Texas do not archive --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:31:31 AM PST US From: Gert Subject: Re: RV-List: bending 5/8" aluminum breather tubing --> RV-List message posted by: Gert I've seen pre-bend pipes in various diameters at the local autoparts shop. maybe that's a route to take, they were made of thin steel tubing if I remember right. conversly a quick dash to a junkyard may yield a pre-bent pipe suitable for your purposes. Gert Terry Watson wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" > > Dan, > > This isn't really an answer to your question but I have been going through > the same problem. The firewall forward drawings for my RV-8A show that tube > mounted against the firewall and a piece of rubber hose with a 90degree bend > in it connecting it to the fitting on my IO-360 from Bart. Problem is I > can't figure out any way to make the bends end up with the tube running down > the firewall. I kinked my first one but thinking it could only cost $5 or > so, I ordered another. It was about $30. I would have lived with the > creases in it for that. > > The RV-8 that I took firewall forward photos of last week (after a ride in > it. Thanks Mike!) had hose all the way. The tube would be lighter if I > could figure out how to make it fit. > > Terry > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dan Checkoway > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: bending 5/8" aluminum breather tubing > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > > Van's IO-360 FWF kit came with a breather tube, FF-705, which appears to be > 2024T3 aluminum -- I'm not really sure of the alloy/temper. Anyway, as it > comes, it's 5/8" tubing with an expanded (to 3/4") flange on top to fit > inside the 3/4" ID rubber elbow they also provide in the kit. > > Well, my IO-360 from Bart came with a smaller 5/8" OD breather fitting...so > I just got some 5/8" ID rubber hose, and decided to chop off the expanded > top of the aluminum tubing. My plan is to run the rubber tubing from the > breather fitting, down the firewall, clamped to the firewall with an adel > clamp, and then transition to alumimum tubing at the bottom where it nears > the exhaust. Great so far... > > I need to make an "S" bend in the bottom of the aluminum tubing so it can > jog around the engine mount and point at the exhaust. Bending this tubing > is where my problem lies. I asked around and nobody had a 5/8" tubing > bender. But fortunately when I was at Harbor Freight today they had one for > $5.99. SCORE! > > NOT. No matter how slowly I take it or how oily I make it, the thing puts > *kinks* on the inside of the tubing. It's no real surprise, since the tool > is set up with like a 3" bend *diameter*. Pretty aggressive. > > That's all a long-winded way of leading up to my questions: > > - Does anybody know if the FF-705 breather tube is 2024T3? > > - Assuming it is, will 6061T6 tubing be more ductile? > > - Any tips and tricks on bending this "large" tubing? > > - At least one builder said he went with rubber hose all the way down to > within 1/4" of the exhaust and hasn't seen any heat/melting issues. That > seems crazy to me, and I assume a length of aluminum is definitely > prescribed here, but...sanity check? > > Thanks in advance, > )_( Dan > RV-7 N714D > http://www.rvproject.com > > > > > > > > -- is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:34:57 AM PST US From: WFACT01@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: bending 5/8" aluminum breather tubing --> RV-List message posted by: WFACT01@aol.com HI- To bend large soft tubing fill it with fine sand-put a plug in each end-clamp the plugs-bend it around a large radius -2-3-4-inch pvc-pipe works-TOM Tom Whelan Whelan Farms Airport President EAA Chapter 1097 wfact01@aol.com 249 Hard Hill Road North PO Box 426 Bethlehem, CT 06751 Tel: 203-266-5300 Fax: 202-266-5140 EAA Technical/Flight Advisor RV-8 540 LYC (Engine Runs, Taxi-Tests) S-51 Mustang Turbine (Under Construction) ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:34:57 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: rv-list bending tubing From: smoothweasel@juno.com --> RV-List message posted by: smoothweasel@juno.com I don't know how "sharp" of a bend you are trying to make but I have had success by using an old v-belt pulley mounted in a vise. Take the tube and bend it in the groove of the pulley. The edges of the tube will contact the pulley instead of the bottom preventing a kink. Different size pulleys for different radius bends. Joel "Weasel" Graber rv-4 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:40:23 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Empennage manual update Page 8-7 From: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" --> RV-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" SSdkIGxvdmUgdGhlIHVwZGF0ZSAtIGNhbiB5b3UgcG9zdCBpdCBpbiB0aGUgZmlsZXMgc2VjdGlv biBmb3IgZXZlcnlib2R5Pw0KIA0KQm9iDQoNCgktLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLSAN CglGcm9tOiBEZW5uaXMgYW5kIFN0ZXBoYW5pZSBTbWl0aCBbbWFpbHRvOmZhbWZsaWVyQGNlbnR1 cnl0ZWwubmV0XSANCglTZW50OiBTYXQgMTEvMTUvMjAwMyAwOTozMyBQTSANCglUbzogcnYtbGlz dEBtYXRyb25pY3MuY29tIA0KCUNjOiANCglTdWJqZWN0OiBSVi1MaXN0OiBFbXBlbm5hZ2UgbWFu dWFsIHVwZGF0ZSBQYWdlIDgtNw0KCQ0KCQ0KDQoJLS0+IFJWLUxpc3QgbWVzc2FnZSBwb3N0ZWQg Ynk6ICJEZW5uaXMgYW5kIFN0ZXBoYW5pZSBTbWl0aCIgPGZhbWZsaWVyQGNlbnR1cnl0ZWwubmV0 Pg0KCQ0KCUkgaGF2ZSBhbiB1cGRhdGUgdG8gdGhlIGVtcGVubmFnZSBtYW51YWwgdGhhdCBoYXNu J3QgYmVlbiBtYWRlIHdpZGVseQ0KCWF2YWlsYWJsZSBhcyB5ZXQsIGluIGNhc2UgYW55b25lIHdh bnRzIGl0LiAgSSBoYXZlIGl0IHNhdmVkIGluIGEgLmpwZWcNCgkocGljdHVyZSkgYW5kIC5wZGYg KEFkb2JlIEFjcm9iYXQpIGZvcm1hdC4gIEknbGwgdHJ5IHRvIGF0dGFjaCB0aGVtIGhlcmUsDQoJ YnV0IGlmIHlvdSBjYW4ndCBnZXQgdGhlbSBqdXN0IGVtYWlsIG1lIGFuZCBpIHdpbGwgZW1haWwg aXQgdG8geW91Lg0KCURlbm5pcyBTbWl0aA0KCSM5Nw0KCVJlYWR5IHRvIHJpdmV0IHNraW4gb24g dmVydC4gc3RhYi4NCgkNCgkNCglfLT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09DQoJXy09DQoJXy09ICAgICAgIC0t IFBsZWFzZSBTdXBwb3J0IFlvdXIgTGlzdHMgVGhpcyBNb250aCAtLQ0KCV8tPSAgICAgICAgICAg KEFuZCBHZXQgU29tZSBBV0VTT01FIEZSRUUgR2lmdHMhKQ0KCV8tPQ0KCV8tPSAgIE5vdmVtYmVy IGlzIHRoZSBBbm51YWwgTGlzdCBGdW5kIFJhaXNlci4gIENsaWNrIG9uIHRoZQ0KCV8tPSAgIENv bnRyaWJ1dGlvbiBsaW5rIGJlbG93IHRvIGZpbmQgb3V0IG1vcmUgYWJvdXQgdGhpcw0KCV8tPSAg IHllYXIncyBUZXJyaWZpYyBGcmVlIEdpZnRzISBUaGFuayB5b3UgZm9yIHlvdXIgZ2VuZXJvdXMN CglfLT0gICBzdXBwb3J0ISAgICAtTWF0dCBEcmFsbGUsIExpc3QgQWRtaW4uDQoJXy09DQoJXy09 ICAgICAgICAgICBodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20vY29udHJpYnV0aW9uDQoJXy09DQoJ Xy09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT0NCglfLT0gICAgICAgICAgICAgIC0gVGhlIFJWLUxpc3QgRW1haWwg Rm9ydW0gLQ0KCV8tPSBUaGlzIGZvcnVtIGlzIHNwb25zb3JlZCBlbnRpcmVseSB0aHJvdWdoIHRo ZSBDb250cmlidXRpb25zDQoJXy09IG9mIExpc3QgbWVtYmVycy4gIFlvdSdsbCBuZXZlciBzZWUg YmFubmVyIGFkcyBvciBhbnkgb3RoZXINCglfLT0gZm9ybSBvZiBkaXJlY3QgYWR2ZXJ0aXNpbmcg b24gdGhlIE1hdHJvbmljcyBGb3J1bXMuDQoJXy09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT0NCglfLT0gISEgTkVX ICEhDQoJXy09IEFMTCBORVcgTElTVCBDSEFUISEgaHR0cDovL3d3dy5tYXRyb25pY3MuY29tL2No YXQNCglfLT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PQ0KCV8tPSBMaXN0IFJlbGF0ZWQgSW5mb3JtYXRpb24NCglf LT0gIFBvc3QgTWVzc2FnZTogICBydi1saXN0QG1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20NCglfLT0gIFVOL1NVQlND UklCRTogICBodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20vc3Vic2NyaXB0aW9uDQoJXy09ICBMaXN0 IEZBUTogICAgICAgaHR0cDovL3d3dy5tYXRyb25pY3MuY29tL0ZBUS9SVi1MaXN0Lmh0bQ0KCV8t PSAgU2VhcmNoIEVuZ2luZTogIGh0dHA6Ly93d3cubWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbS9zZWFyY2gNCglfLT0g IDctRGF5IEJyb3dzZTogICBodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20vYnJvd3NlL3J2LWxpc3QN CglfLT0gIEJyb3dzZSBEaWdlc3RzOiBodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20vZGlnZXN0L3J2 LWxpc3QNCglfLT0gIExpdmUgTGlzdCBDaGF0OiBodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20vY2hh dA0KCV8tPSAgQXJjaGl2ZXM6ICAgICAgIGh0dHA6Ly93d3cubWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbS9hcmNoaXZl cw0KCV8tPSAgUGhvdG8gU2hhcmU6ICAgIGh0dHA6Ly93d3cubWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbS9waG90b3No YXJlDQoJXy09ICBMaXN0IFNwZWNpZmljOiAgaHR0cDovL3d3dy5tYXRyb25pY3MuY29tL3J2LWxp c3QNCglfLT0gIE90aGVyIExpc3RzOiAgICBodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20vZW1haWxs aXN0cw0KCV8tPSAgVHJvdWJsZSBSZXBvcnQgIGh0dHA6Ly93d3cubWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbS90cm91 YmxlLXJlcG9ydA0KCV8tPSAgQ29udHJpYnV0aW9uczogIGh0dHA6Ly93d3cubWF0cm9uaWNzLmNv bS9jb250cmlidXRpb24NCglfLT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PQ0KCQ0KCQ0KCQ0KCQ0KCQ0KDQo ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:44 AM PST US From: "jgburns" Subject: RV-List: Builders Insurance Coverage --> RV-List message posted by: "jgburns" I purchased builder's coverage through Nation Air Insurance Agencies, Inc. about one year ago. It made sense because I picked up the QB kit from Van's factory. I just received a letter saying there's been a slight increase in premium (25% is slight?), that'll make it $400 for one year to cover project (kit cost to date $21K). The coverage is under Phoenix Aviation (Vans Program). Can anyone point me towards a more competitive premium? John Burns, 7A ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:30:17 AM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: Empennage manual update Page 8-7 --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" Wow...that really is much clearer than the old manual. It gets better every day. Back when I started my RV, the manual had no VOWELS!!! do not archive )_( Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" Subject: RE: RV-List: Empennage manual update Page 8-7 > --> RV-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" > > SSdkIGxvdmUgdGhlIHVwZGF0ZSAtIGNhbiB5b3UgcG9zdCBpdCBpbiB0aGUgZmlsZXMgc2VjdGlv > biBmb3IgZXZlcnlib2R5Pw0KIA0KQm9iDQoNCgktLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLSAN > CglGcm9tOiBEZW5uaXMgYW5kIFN0ZXBoYW5pZSBTbWl0aCBbbWFpbHRvOmZhbWZsaWVyQGNlbnR1 > cnl0ZWwubmV0XSANCglTZW50OiBTYXQgMTEvMTUvMjAwMyAwOTozMyBQTSANCglUbzogcnYtbGlz > dEBtYXRyb25pY3MuY29tIA0KCUNjOiANCglTdWJqZWN0OiBSVi1MaXN0OiBFbXBlbm5hZ2UgbWFu > dWFsIHVwZGF0ZSBQYWdlIDgtNw0KCQ0KCQ0KDQoJLS0+IFJWLUxpc3QgbWVzc2FnZSBwb3N0ZWQg > Ynk6ICJEZW5uaXMgYW5kIFN0ZXBoYW5pZSBTbWl0aCIgPGZhbWZsaWVyQGNlbnR1cnl0ZWwubmV0 > Pg0KCQ0KCUkgaGF2ZSBhbiB1cGRhdGUgdG8gdGhlIGVtcGVubmFnZSBtYW51YWwgdGhhdCBoYXNu > J3QgYmVlbiBtYWRlIHdpZGVseQ0KCWF2YWlsYWJsZSBhcyB5ZXQsIGluIGNhc2UgYW55b25lIHdh > bnRzIGl0LiAgSSBoYXZlIGl0IHNhdmVkIGluIGEgLmpwZWcNCgkocGljdHVyZSkgYW5kIC5wZGYg > KEFkb2JlIEFjcm9iYXQpIGZvcm1hdC4gIEknbGwgdHJ5IHRvIGF0dGFjaCB0aGVtIGhlcmUsDQoJ > YnV0IGlmIHlvdSBjYW4ndCBnZXQgdGhlbSBqdXN0IGVtYWlsIG1lIGFuZCBpIHdpbGwgZW1haWwg > aXQgdG8geW91Lg0KCURlbm5pcyBTbWl0aA0KCSM5Nw0KCVJlYWR5IHRvIHJpdmV0IHNraW4gb24g > dmVydC4gc3RhYi4NCgkNCgkNCglfLT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 > PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09DQoJXy09DQoJXy09ICAgICAgIC0t > IFBsZWFzZSBTdXBwb3J0IFlvdXIgTGlzdHMgVGhpcyBNb250aCAtLQ0KCV8tPSAgICAgICAgICAg > KEFuZCBHZXQgU29tZSBBV0VTT01FIEZSRUUgR2lmdHMhKQ0KCV8tPQ0KCV8tPSAgIE5vdmVtYmVy > IGlzIHRoZSBBbm51YWwgTGlzdCBGdW5kIFJhaXNlci4gIENsaWNrIG9uIHRoZQ0KCV8tPSAgIENv > bnRyaWJ1dGlvbiBsaW5rIGJlbG93IHRvIGZpbmQgb3V0IG1vcmUgYWJvdXQgdGhpcw0KCV8tPSAg > IHllYXIncyBUZXJyaWZpYyBGcmVlIEdpZnRzISBUaGFuayB5b3UgZm9yIHlvdXIgZ2VuZXJvdXMN > CglfLT0gICBzdXBwb3J0ISAgICAtTWF0dCBEcmFsbGUsIExpc3QgQWRtaW4uDQoJXy09DQoJXy09 > ICAgICAgICAgICBodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20vY29udHJpYnV0aW9uDQoJXy09DQoJ > Xy09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 > PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT0NCglfLT0gICAgICAgICAgICAgIC0gVGhlIFJWLUxpc3QgRW1haWwg > Rm9ydW0gLQ0KCV8tPSBUaGlzIGZvcnVtIGlzIHNwb25zb3JlZCBlbnRpcmVseSB0aHJvdWdoIHRo > ZSBDb250cmlidXRpb25zDQoJXy09IG9mIExpc3QgbWVtYmVycy4gIFlvdSdsbCBuZXZlciBzZWUg > YmFubmVyIGFkcyBvciBhbnkgb3RoZXINCglfLT0gZm9ybSBvZiBkaXJlY3QgYWR2ZXJ0aXNpbmcg > b24gdGhlIE1hdHJvbmljcyBGb3J1bXMuDQoJXy09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 > PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT0NCglfLT0gISEgTkVX > ICEhDQoJXy09IEFMTCBORVcgTElTVCBDSEFUISEgaHR0cDovL3d3dy5tYXRyb25pY3MuY29tL2No > YXQNCglfLT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 > PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PQ0KCV8tPSBMaXN0IFJlbGF0ZWQgSW5mb3JtYXRpb24NCglf > LT0gIFBvc3QgTWVzc2FnZTogICBydi1saXN0QG1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20NCglfLT0gIFVOL1NVQlND > UklCRTogICBodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20vc3Vic2NyaXB0aW9uDQoJXy09ICBMaXN0 > IEZBUTogICAgICAgaHR0cDovL3d3dy5tYXRyb25pY3MuY29tL0ZBUS9SVi1MaXN0Lmh0bQ0KCV8t > PSAgU2VhcmNoIEVuZ2luZTogIGh0dHA6Ly93d3cubWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbS9zZWFyY2gNCglfLT0g > IDctRGF5IEJyb3dzZTogICBodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20vYnJvd3NlL3J2LWxpc3QN > CglfLT0gIEJyb3dzZSBEaWdlc3RzOiBodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20vZGlnZXN0L3J2 > LWxpc3QNCglfLT0gIExpdmUgTGlzdCBDaGF0OiBodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20vY2hh > dA0KCV8tPSAgQXJjaGl2ZXM6ICAgICAgIGh0dHA6Ly93d3cubWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbS9hcmNoaXZl > cw0KCV8tPSAgUGhvdG8gU2hhcmU6ICAgIGh0dHA6Ly93d3cubWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbS9waG90b3No > YXJlDQoJXy09ICBMaXN0IFNwZWNpZmljOiAgaHR0cDovL3d3dy5tYXRyb25pY3MuY29tL3J2LWxp > c3QNCglfLT0gIE90aGVyIExpc3RzOiAgICBodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20vZW1haWxs > aXN0cw0KCV8tPSAgVHJvdWJsZSBSZXBvcnQgIGh0dHA6Ly93d3cubWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbS90cm91 > YmxlLXJlcG9ydA0KCV8tPSAgQ29udHJpYnV0aW9uczogIGh0dHA6Ly93d3cubWF0cm9uaWNzLmNv > bS9jb250cmlidXRpb24NCglfLT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 > PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PQ0KCQ0KCQ0KCQ0KCQ0KCQ0KDQo > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:30:50 AM PST US From: "Kosta Lewis" Subject: RE: RV-List: Empennage manual update Page 8-7 --> RV-List message posted by: "Kosta Lewis" >Wow...that really is much clearer than the old manual. It gets better >every day. Back when I started my RV, the manual had no VOWELS!!! Manual? There was a MANUAL? Michael Do not archive ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:08:20 PM PST US From: Metalplane@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Mashing Tape Removal from the manufacturer of our canopies --> RV-List message posted by: Metalplane@aol.com I was surprised to hear that people were still using "Mashing" tape. I don't get to the list very often. If you are planning to use tape to hold down rivets for "back riveting", try this. I've been flying my RV-6 (N130BN) for three years now. There's nothing like it. When I was building, I tried all kinds of, what I see called here as "mashing" tape. None worked very well. "Kapton" tape used on electronics seemed to work the best for me, but it too left a residue on the surface of the aluminium. I settled on a technique you might want to try. It leaves no residue, and gives the best rivet set I've seen. Tape the rivets down with a weakly sticky tape, but it should have a fairly good tensile strength. The Kapton worked well for this, but the green masking tape body shops use for "pin striping" worked best. I got a couple of roles from a local body shop. It had past it's useful shelflife date and they were throwing it out...lucky me. The narrower the tape the better. I used 1/4 inch. When taping down the rivets to be set, run the tape out about 6 inched beyond the end of the work. Now cut some strips of stiff paper or mylar about twice as long as the tape you cut. About one inch wide worked ok. Fold the paper or mylar strip in half. At the long end of the tape, you placed on the rivets, tape down the folded end and let it one side flop back over the rivets. Put the work over the bucking plate, and hold it down "lightly". Now pull the paper strip out from under the work. It will pull the tape off the rivets and stick it to the back half of the paper strip, the rivets are neatly in place and set up "metal to metal" against the bucking plate. It works great!. I was lucky enough to have a 20" by 32" slab of 3/8" stainless I polished, that let me rivet 3/4 of each elevator at a time. I set up 6 or 7 lines of rivets at a time, pulled out the strips and tape, and bang-bang-bang the rivets were set. There was no messy "mashing tape" residue to clean since it was removed befor the riveting. As an added bonus, the rivets are set very tightly in the dinple. Even the thinest tapes are soft. They let the rivet "mash" back down a little away from the surface. It may look fine now, but you may see the difference when painting. Give it a try. It's easy with "NO" cleanup! Bob Neuner RV6 N130BN ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:33:47 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: EAA Young Eagles paranoid concern.... From: Bruce Green --> RV-List message posted by: Bruce Green On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 08:13:31 -0800 (PST) rob ray writes: > --> RV-List message posted by: rob ray > > Bryan; > Responsibility, it's just something we have to deal with as > aviators. > > I for one think Shakespear was right. ********************************************************************* "Ironically, the rallying cry of the lawyer bashers has become Shakespeare's quote from Henry VI: "THE FIRST THING WE DO, LET'S KILL ALL THE LAWYERS." Those who use this phrase pejoratively against lawyers are as miserably misguided about their Shakespeare as they are about the judicial system which they disdain so freely. Even a cursory reading of the context in which the lawyer killing statement is made in King Henry VI, Part II, (Act IV), Scene 2, reveals that Shakespeare was paying great and deserved homage to our venerable profession as the front line defenders of democracy. The accolade is spoken by Dick the Butcher, a follower of anarchist Jack Cade, whom Shakespeare depicts as "the head of an army of rabble and a demagogue pandering to the ignorant," who sought to overthrow the government. Shakespeare's acknowledgment that the first thing any potential tyrant must do to eliminate freedom is to "kill all the lawyers" is, indeed, a classic and well-deserved compliment to our distinguished profession." So Rob Ray, now that you have demonstrated your ignorance of Shakespear, do you still think he was right? Bruce Green Eagle N110GM ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 02:06:54 PM PST US From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: Re: RV-List: EAA Young Eagles paranoid concern.... --> RV-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" Could dis be day zha view all over again, Dick the Butcher played by Katie C and Jack Cade by Hillery. Ole Wille the Shake wood be turnin' over if he saw the various ways we spel his name. 8*) KABONG The accolade is spoken by Dick the Butcher, a follower of anarchist Jack Cade, whom Shakespeare depicts as "the head of an army of rabble and a demagogue pandering to the ignorant," who sought to overthrow the government. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Green" Subject: Re: RV-List: EAA Young Eagles paranoid concern.... > > I for one think Shakespear was right. > ********************************************************************* > "Ironically, the rallying cry of the lawyer bashers has become > Shakespeare's quote from Henry VI: "THE FIRST THING WE DO, LET'S KILL > ALL THE LAWYERS." Shakespeare> > So Rob Ray, now that you have demonstrated your ignorance of Shakespear, > do you still think he was right? > > Bruce Green > Eagle N110GM ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 03:01:46 PM PST US From: "John" Subject: Re: RV-List: EAA Young Eagles paranoid concern.... --> RV-List message posted by: "John" Thanks Bruce Green .. ..that phrase has been quoted out of context so often it has become a folk myth it seems. Thanks. John at Salida Attorney at Law ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 04:53:32 PM PST US From: "Gary B. Jacobs" Subject: RV-List: Lycoming model codes --> RV-List message posted by: "Gary B. Jacobs" Does anyone know where I could obtain a listing of the model code designations for the different models of Lycoming engines? Gary & Marianne Jacobs gblayne@mchsi.com ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:38:07 PM PST US From: "Chris & Kellie Hand" Subject: Re: RV-List: fuselage longeron & skin overhang at aft bulkhead --> RV-List message posted by: "Chris & Kellie Hand" Thank you to all that replied on and off list. To record for the archives, the consensus answer was to notch/trim the main longerons enough to fit the vertical stab but wait to trim the overhanging skin until have rudder on and then trim just enough to allow full rudder travel. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris & Kellie Hand" Subject: RV-List: fuselage longeron & skin overhang at aft bulkhead > --> RV-List message posted by: "Chris & Kellie Hand" > > In building the fuselage (RV-6A), I left the skin and main longeron extended > past the tail F-612 bulkhead, planning to trim as needed when I fit the vert > & horiz stabs. Now that the fuselage is out of the jig and sitting on > sawhorses, I see that I cannot get the vertical stab flush with the aft > bulkhead until after trimming the main longerons back. > > My question is, should I trim everything (skins too) right up flush with > that last bulkhead, or should there be some skin extending back a little > past the F-612? Any close up photos of the attached tail section on any of > your web sites? > > Thanks for your help! > > Chris Hand > RV-6A, #23559 > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:08:56 PM PST US From: Jeff Point Subject: Re: RV-List: Lycoming model codes --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point Van's preview plans have such a list. Gary B. Jacobs wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Gary B. Jacobs" > >Does anyone know where I could obtain a listing of the model code designations for the different models of Lycoming engines? > >Gary & Marianne Jacobs >gblayne@mchsi.com > > > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:24:00 PM PST US From: "Dean" Subject: Re: RV-List: Builders Insurance Coverage --> RV-List message posted by: "Dean" John I am building a " slow build " RV-9A and currently have a $ 17,500 insured value with Avemco. The annual premium is $ 284. On a straight line increase basis, this would imply about a $ 340 premium for your $ 21,000 valuation. This is the only data point that I can offer. Dean Van Winkle Fuselage/Finish N799DE (reserved) ----- Original Message ----- From: "jgburns" Subject: RV-List: Builders Insurance Coverage > --> RV-List message posted by: "jgburns" > > I purchased builder's coverage through Nation Air Insurance Agencies, Inc. about one year ago. It made sense because I picked up the QB kit from Van's factory. I just received a letter saying there's been a slight increase in premium (25% is slight?), that'll make it $400 for one year to cover project (kit cost to date $21K). The coverage is under Phoenix Aviation (Vans Program). Can anyone point me towards a more competitive premium? > > John Burns, 7A > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:59:07 PM PST US From: "Lyle Peterson" Subject: RV-List: Rivets and rivet guns, etc. --> RV-List message posted by: "Lyle Peterson" I am in the process of setting up to start on an RV6. It is a very slow build kit. I would appreciate some advice on rivet tools. What rivet gun seems to be the best all around as far as versatility and longevity? Which seems to have the best trigger? Is a 1X enough? Is 3X too much? What rivet sets are the most useful and which are useful in some limited uses? Long sets, offset sets, C frame sets, swivel sets, cushioned sets. Any other accessory that any of you found useful or would have liked to have to make setting a particular rivet easier? What size yokes are useful or needed in some locations on a pneumatic rivet squeezer or on a hand rivet squeezer? I apologize if you get several copies of this message. I am subscribed to several RV lists. Thank all of you for the information and encouragement. Lyle Peterson