---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 11/18/03: 93 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:52 AM - Food Fight Watson Reply (Jim Nolan) 2. 03:05 AM - Re: No subject as you will give it a new one shortly aft (Howard Crawford) 3. 03:32 AM - Re: No subject as you will give it a new one shortly after you flame me (Dana Overall) 4. 03:43 AM - Re: Food Fight Watson Reply (Jim Sears) 5. 03:51 AM - Re: No subject as you will give it a new one shortly aft er you flame me (Jim Sears) 6. 04:42 AM - Re: Food Fight Watson Reply (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)) 7. 05:11 AM - Traveling (Stucklen, Frederic IFC) 8. 05:15 AM - Re: GPS Antenna (James E. Clark) 9. 05:20 AM - PIREP first flight (MSices) 10. 05:22 AM - RV Formation Clinic, Jan. 16-18 in Lakeland Florida (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)) 11. 05:32 AM - Re: Lycoming model codes (Doug Rozendaal) 12. 05:46 AM - The natural progresion of lists - was Food Fight, etc. (Steven Eberhart) 13. 06:11 AM - Re: PIREP first flight (Brian Denk) 14. 06:11 AM - Re: (snip) you flame me (linn walters) 15. 06:14 AM - Re: PIREP first flight (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)) 16. 06:28 AM - Re: Remote control winch? (flmike) 17. 06:46 AM - Re: PIREP first flight (Charles Rowbotham) 18. 06:50 AM - Re: Stupid questions and archives and do not archive (Charles Rowbotham) 19. 07:15 AM - Re: PIREP first flight (C. Rabaut) 20. 07:35 AM - 4130 parts showing rust through primer (Phil N) 21. 07:56 AM - Re: now "Food Fight" - FIRST TIMER RESPONSE (Bill Schlatterer) 22. 07:59 AM - Re: The natural progresion of lists - was Food Fight, etc. (linn walters) 23. 08:05 AM - Re: PIREP first flight (rob ray) 24. 08:16 AM - Re: No subject as you will give it a new one shortly after (Sam Buchanan) 25. 08:21 AM - Re: 4130 parts showing rust through primer (Scott Bilinski) 26. 08:21 AM - Re: Safety Concerns (Cy Galley) 27. 08:21 AM - Re: PIREP first flight (Scott Brumbelow) 28. 08:40 AM - OT: Can I make this engine work in my -8 somehow? (Phil N) 29. 08:47 AM - Re: Food Fight Watson Reply (lm4@juno.com) 30. 08:47 AM - Re: Remote control winch? (lm4@juno.com) 31. 08:54 AM - Re: Remote control winch? (Cy Galley) 32. 08:55 AM - Re: 4130 parts showing rust through primer (Steven Eberhart) 33. 08:56 AM - Enough (BELTEDAIR@aol.com) 34. 09:13 AM - Re: Food Fight Watson Reply (Glenn Brasch) 35. 09:22 AM - Re: No subject as you will give it a new one shortly after (linn walters) 36. 09:50 AM - Re: No subject as you will give it a new one shortly aft (Tedd McHenry) 37. 09:52 AM - Re: now "Food Fight" - FIRST TIMER RESPONSE (linn walters) 38. 10:12 AM - LOC? - What's That? (Matt Dralle) 39. 10:25 AM - Re: Food Fight Watson Reply (glenn.williams@businessacft.bombardier.com) 40. 11:00 AM - Re: PIREP first flight (Dana Overall) 41. 11:18 AM - Re: Glenn's post/Food fight, etc (certainly non RV) (John Helms) 42. 11:35 AM - Re: Food Fight Watson Reply (Allen Mecum) 43. 11:39 AM - Re: 4130 parts showing rust through primer (linn walters) 44. 11:47 AM - Re: Food Fight Watson Reply (linn walters) 45. 11:58 AM - New anti-corrosion policy from Van's? (Kevin Behrent) 46. 12:00 PM - Pressure (in H2O) versus Airspeed (Richard V. Reynolds) 47. 12:17 PM - Re: The natural progresion of lists - was Food Fight, etc. (rv6tc) 48. 12:52 PM - Re: Re: Glenn's post/Food fight, etc (certainly non RV) (rob ray) 49. 12:54 PM - Re: Food Fight Watson Reply (C. Rabaut) 50. 12:56 PM - Re: Food Fight Watson Reply (Jim Sears) 51. 01:08 PM - Re: New anti-corrosion policy from Van's? (Jim Sears) 52. 01:12 PM - Re: Pressure (in H2O) versus Airspeed (Scott Bilinski) 53. 01:22 PM - Re: Safe travels, Glenn (rv6tc) 54. 01:33 PM - Re: Pressure (in H2O) versus Airspeed (Ralph E. Capen) 55. 02:05 PM - Re: New anti-corrosion policy from Van's? (Condrey, Bob (US SSA)) 56. 02:16 PM - Re: PIREP first flight (MSices) 57. 02:23 PM - Re: New anti-corrosion policy from Van's? (Elsa & Henry) 58. 02:26 PM - Re: Pressure (in H2O) versus Airspeed (Kevin Horton) 59. 02:26 PM - Re: Pressure (in H2O) versus Airspeed (Boyd Braem) 60. 02:39 PM - Re: New anti-corrosion policy from Van's? (sshah@shreyans.info) 61. 03:07 PM - Re: now "Food Fight" - FIRST TIMER RESPONSE (David Carter) 62. 03:15 PM - spar tabs (Paul Eastham) 63. 03:19 PM - Traveling to Alabama (N13eer@aol.com) 64. 03:19 PM - Re: Re-Food Fights, questions, and do not archive (Jim Jewell) 65. 03:24 PM - Re: New anti-corrosion policy from Van's? (Paul Eastham) 66. 03:35 PM - Re: First flight decisions (Greg Young) 67. 04:35 PM - Re: New anti-corrosion policy from Van's? (Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club) 68. 04:44 PM - Re: New anti-corrosion policy from Van's? (J. R. Dial) 69. 05:04 PM - Re: Re-Food Fights, questions, and do not archive (linn walters) 70. 05:07 PM - Re: New anti-corrosion policy from Van's? (Curt Hoffman) 71. 05:14 PM - Re: Safe travels, Glenn (Vince Himsl) 72. 05:28 PM - Re: Re: Safe travels, Glenn (RV6AOKC@aol.com) 73. 05:46 PM - Re: First flight decisions (linn walters) 74. 06:27 PM - Re: EAA Young Eagles paranoid concern.... (RV6160hp@aol.com) 75. 06:28 PM - Re: New anti-corrosion policy from Van's? (linn walters) 76. 06:29 PM - Remote control winch? (Glen Matejcek) 77. 06:32 PM - Test & cal of pitot-static sys & insts -was Re: Pressure (in H2O) versus Airspeed (David Carter) 78. 06:44 PM - RV-Pilot Bed & Breakfast? (Jim Cimino) 79. 07:13 PM - Re: New anti-corrosion policy from Van's? (Jim Sears) 80. 07:14 PM - Projects, Projects (John) 81. 07:24 PM - Re: The natural progresion of lists - was Food Fight, etc. (Richard Sipp) 82. 07:35 PM - Re: RV-Pilot Bed & Breakfast? (Charlie & Tupper England) 83. 07:40 PM - Re: Re: New anti-corrosion policy from Van's? (R. Craig Chipley) 84. 07:41 PM - tip-up rear window fit (thomas a. sargent) 85. 08:05 PM - Re: RV-Pilot Bed & Breakfast? (Joe Hine) 86. 08:19 PM - Re: RV-Pilot Bed & Breakfast? (Larry Pardue) 87. 08:25 PM - RV10 Tail kit Atlanta area? (Michael D. Crowe) 88. 08:52 PM - Re: OT: Can I make this engine work in my -8 somehow? (Chris W) 89. 08:57 PM - Wright brothers (David.vonLinsowe) 90. 09:44 PM - Air screw..... (JOHN STARN) 91. 09:48 PM - Re: Re-Food Fights, questions, and do not archive (Jim Jewell) 92. 10:45 PM - Remote control winch (j1j2h3@juno.com) 93. 11:14 PM - Re: Air screw..... (Jim Jewell) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:52:15 AM PST US From: "Jim Nolan" Subject: RV-List: Food Fight Watson Reply --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Nolan" Terry, Was going to reply to your post directly to you but since I've read some of the other posts I'll reply online. Ditto, Ditto, Ditto Smart people don't make others feel stupid. They usually have patience and understanding. That must go for the one asking the question as well as the one answering it. Jim Nolan N444JN ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:05:13 AM PST US From: Howard Crawford er you flame me Subject: RE: RV-List: No subject as you will give it a new one shortly aft er you flame me --> RV-List message posted by: Howard Crawford Lyle, You got my vote. This is the first and last message that I will send to the RV list. I am tired of reading all the messages that have nothing to do with building an airplane by the all American Boys Club. If you don't belong to the club don't talk to us. I'm going to the RV10 group on YAHOO. Gone. -----Original Message----- From: Lyle Peterson [mailto:lyleap@access4less.net] rv7-list@matronics.com; rv8-list@matronics.com; rv9-list@matronics.com Subject: RV-List: No subject as you will give it a new one shortly after you flame me --> RV-List message posted by: "Lyle Peterson" It is so disheartening to learn that aviators are so narrow minded and selfish. If you people had used one tenth of the energy you expended on blasting my question to providing useful information, you could have written a book. As is it you only demonstrated that you 1. Don't know the answers, 2. Think that your knowledge is so unique that it can't be shared, 3. You have an immense amount of time to waste, 4. You have absolutely no respect for other people, whether they be builders or not. Someone suggested that the question was 'stupid.' The only stupid question is one that you can't answer! I checked the archives for the "gazillion" answers to be found there. I found four and not all of them pertained directly to my question. None of them covered all the questions I had posed. A few responded off list. They probably did not want to be caught by the lords of the list giving information to a new builder. I do thank those few for the information they so generously shared. They are very unlike the rest of the listers. Some two thousand people on these lists and only a very few are willing to answer. Rather, several find the time to waste flaming the questioner. The thread continues under the guise of a 'Food Fight.' How charming! So many messages use an existing subject because so few of you have figured out how to start a new thread on the list. Shame, shame. Look at the bottom of the message for the information you need. You don't even have to ask a question of the list, and thus get flamed for a stupid question. I did envision one day flying it to Oshkosh. If I do, which is doubtful, I will park it in the Vintage area. There are some folks there that will talk decently to you about airplanes and lots of other things. If you get too many copies of this email, use the delete key. Thanks for nothing, Lyle Peterson ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:32:03 AM PST US From: "Dana Overall" Subject: Re: RV-List: No subject as you will give it a new one shortly after you flame me --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" Gang, heck you know me I can get flamed with the best of them and still pound away joyfully:-) I want you to look at how Lyle ended his post of intial questions to the list: >>>>Thank all of you for the information and encouragement. Lyle Peterson<<<< Did he get either?? Sit back and think, here he is.....has finally decided on starting the building process, has laid in bed envisioning how to set up his shop, probably wondered whether to use pegboard on the walls or not, table in middle or movable to rearrange shop when required........man, this is getting FUN. Tools, man I love tools, gotta have new tools, don't want to waste money right off the bat.......be doing enough of that as I reorder parts. I've done some research, lets see, been following the lists and researched enough of the archives to ask a few questions in a knowledgable fashion.........OK how to form up my email in a logical manner to get the answers I need..........here goes, hit the enter key. WHAM, stupid, dumb, do your research, transformed to have to have your first 20 posts go through a moderator........and all he wanted were a couple quick answers to a couple questions?? Yes, I did email him a couple hints on some things I have learned along the way........took, what 2 minutes. Sorry, but I learned as a police officer, when you pick up that telephone the person on the other end is making the most important phone call they can think of at time......treat it that way. I carry this same thought with my CPA practice now, that client is asking the most important question on their mind at that moment............I treat it that way. Sorry, gang but with the new kits, a lot of the info in the archives does not apply 100%, true he was asking some generic questions and even building a 6 but if you don't think that post was the most important email he had to send at that moment..................... Off the soapbox, but give these guys a break. I'd feel the same way if my first post here had been treated with the flood of negitivity that perpetuated the list. BTW, I do have a question I was going to ask this morning but now is certainly not the time. I don't care if it takes me three days to find the answer, I'll find it somewhere, somehow. Dana Overall Richmond, KY RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" Finish kit Buying Instruments. Hangar flying my Dynon. http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive Crave some Miles Davis or Grateful Dead? Your old favorites are always playing on MSN Radio Plus. Trial month free! ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:43:31 AM PST US From: Jim Sears Subject: Re: RV-List: Food Fight Watson Reply --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears > Smart people don't make others feel stupid. They usually have patience > and understanding. I agree with Jim on this and have sent a note to Lyle Peterson offline to apologize for the behavior of some of our listers. I sincerely hope that he doesn't think all of us on the list are quick to belittle our newbie friends in the same manner he's been made an example of. Folks, it's this kind of behavior that's lost a lot of members on this list. Unfortunately, a goodly portion of them were very good contributors, to include one Van's employee that I remember, who decided that being flamed was not a good thing. I quit contributing as much, for the same reason. It's a shame that so much of the bandwidth on this list is used to communicate useless messages that could be done at the chat room or offline somewhere else. We don't have to agree on everything; but, we do have to do it in a civil manner so that we don't run folks off. Lyle is left with a very bad taste in his mouth and may be very reluctant to ask any more questions. I, for one, would feel badly if he did something wrong on his airplane that could cause him harm later just because he was afraid to ask us a question. Wouldn't you? When I got on this list, it was a very useful tool. Today, it's turned into something that doesn't come up to the standards it had when I joined up in 1996. Some of the stuff that comes in via the RV-list is no better than the spam I delete regularly and a good example of why I don't belong to chat rooms. Guys, if you have to carry on about something, switch to the chat room and go for it! At least the main list will be left for more serious stuff, like helping newbies with questions that have been asked a million times. I can't remember what Lyle's original question was. I just hope I answered it for him, to the best of my ability. I'm not sure I did and have apologized to him for it. I can't answer all of the questions because my knowledge base is limited to what I've experienced. Jim Sears in KY RV-6A N198JS EAA Tech Counselor do not archive ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:51:25 AM PST US From: Jim Sears Subject: Re: RV-List: No subject as you will give it a new one shortly aft er you flame me --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears > Lyle, > You got my vote. This is the first and last message that I will send > to the RV list. I am tired of reading all the messages that have nothing > to do with building an airplane by the all American Boys Club. If you > don't belong to the club don't talk to us. > I'm going to the RV10 group on YAHOO. > Gone. > Folks, this is just what I was talking about in my other note. The gentleman is a friend of mine who just started his RV-10. I suggested that he join the RV-list so that he could maybe learn something from it. Now, we've lost him to a group that may have much more limited experience than we do, as a group. I know that Howard could have been a good contributor to this list, as well. He's never built an airplane; but, he's been around them for a long time and doesn't mind getting his hands dirty. He knows quite a bit about aircraft and could have helped answer some of our questions, once he got comfortable with the list. Now, he's gone. I know him well enough to know that he won't return. When he gets fed up, he's goes and doesn't look back. Unfortunately, the RV-list will be the one to lose out. Maybe I need to look at the Yahoo list, as well. :-( Jim Sears in KY RV-6A N198JS EAA Tech Counselor do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:42:44 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Food Fight Watson Reply From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" I for one should have been nicer. My apologies. We should be able to vent a little without folks getting their feelings hurt. The venters used smilies and "just venting." . Personally I was just having a little fun with the new guys. I surely had no intention of seeing em bail. Maybe my dig was at their expense. My apologies again. I do hate to see em go. There is much to be learned. To those that were offended, I think you will find that no offense was intended. These posters are great people who like to play and throw out a little sarcasm that can be hard to read in print. Its all in good fun. Please don't take it personally. Mike Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Sears Subject: Re: RV-List: Food Fight Watson Reply --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears > Smart people don't make others feel stupid. They usually have patience > and understanding. I agree with Jim on this and have sent a note to Lyle Peterson offline to apologize for the behavior of some of our listers. I sincerely hope that he doesn't think all of us on the list are quick to belittle our newbie friends in the same manner he's been made an example of. Folks, it's this kind of behavior that's lost a lot of members on this list. Unfortunately, a goodly portion of them were very good contributors, to include one Van's employee that I remember, who decided that being flamed was not a good thing. I quit contributing as much, for the same reason. It's a shame that so much of the bandwidth on this list is used to communicate useless messages that could be done at the chat room or offline somewhere else. We don't have to agree on everything; but, we do have to do it in a civil manner so that we don't run folks off. Lyle is left with a very bad taste in his mouth and may be very reluctant to ask any more questions. I, for one, would feel badly if he did something wrong on his airplane that could cause him harm later just because he was afraid to ask us a question. Wouldn't you? When I got on this list, it was a very useful tool. Today, it's turned into something that doesn't come up to the standards it had when I joined up in 1996. Some of the stuff that comes in via the RV-list is no better than the spam I delete regularly and a good example of why I don't belong to chat rooms. Guys, if you have to carry on about something, switch to the chat room and go for it! At least the main list will be left for more serious stuff, like helping newbies with questions that have been asked a million times. I can't remember what Lyle's original question was. I just hope I answered it for him, to the best of my ability. I'm not sure I did and have apologized to him for it. I can't answer all of the questions because my knowledge base is limited to what I've experienced. Jim Sears in KY RV-6A N198JS EAA Tech Counselor do not archive = == == == == ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:11:35 AM PST US From: "Stucklen, Frederic IFC" Subject: RV-List: Traveling --> RV-List message posted by: "Stucklen, Frederic IFC" listers, I'm traveling to New Mexico next week in my new RV-6A. I'm planning stops at 29G, 1H0 (overnight), CLK & AEG. Final destination is NM69, a private strip SE of TCS. Anybody interested in seeing a nice IFR panel implementation can email me off list for details when I'll be at the above airports..... Fred Stucklen RV-6A N926RV * Wrk E-mail: fred.stucklen@utcfuelcells.com * Hm E-mail: wstucklen1@cox.net ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:15:50 AM PST US From: "James E. Clark" Subject: RE: RV-List: GPS Antenna --> RV-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" There are several cases of the GPS antenna under the cowl. Ours is for a KMD-150 and (like many) is mounted on a bracket/shelf that is bolted to the firewall. Have not heard of anyone attaching it to the engine mount. Has worked fine so far ... over 240 hours. James > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Larry Bowen > Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 11:55 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV-List: GPS Antenna > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" > > I've thought of mounting the GPS antenna under the cowl on a shelf > cushion-clamped to the top arc of the engine mount. Has anyone else > done that already? Any drawbacks? > > If not there, I'll just put mine on the glareshield. I have the 196, > panel-mounted and the stock antenna. > > - > Larry Bowen, RV-8 fwf/cowl > Larry@BowenAero.com > http://BowenAero.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: a flyer [mailto:aflyer@direcway.com] > > Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 8:44 PM > > To: rv-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: RV-List: GPS Antenna > > > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: a flyer > > > > Ouch! > > > > First, Garmin's 196 antenna is powered, like all GPS > > antennas. They have to do some signal to noise enhancement > > (and frequency down-conversion) at the antenna to work with > > the very weak GPS signal. > > > > Second, I think Chuck was offering an alternative idea, that > > of putting the antenna on the glareshield, rather than under the cowl. > > > > On my 8, I cut a hole in the glare shield, and mounted the > > antenna on a bracket under the hole. It is covered with the > > fabric glareshield cover. I have a Skyforce unit. This > > approach has the advantages of keeping the antenna in a cool > > place, and also having a very short (about 12") long cable > > from antenna to receiver. I have not seen any degradation of signal. > > > > > > I would also throw in the opinion that blaming the lawyers > > for lawsuits is like blaming the gun for murders. The lawyers > > are just a hired gun, someone needs to hire them to press the suit. > > > > do not archive > > John Huft (electrical engineer) > > RV8, Pagosa Springs, CO > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" > > To: > > Subject: RE: RV-List: GPS Antenna > > > > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" > > > > > > > > Chuck, > > > Is your glare shield under your cowl? Do you have Garmin's > > std issue > > > GPS antennae? > > > > > > Please folks lets read the listers ? first. > > > > > > Mike > > > Its my day to rant. > > > Do not archive. > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > > > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charles > > > Rowbotham > > > To: rv-list@matronics.com > > > Subject: Re: RV-List: GPS Antenna > > > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Charles Rowbotham" > > > > > > > > > > > > Neil, > > > > > > We installed Getz's hockey puck GPS ant on top of the glare shield. > > > It's > > > > > > flat black like our glareshield - small and has worked great. > > > > > > Chuck & Dave Rowbotham > > > RV-8A > > > > > > >From: "Neil Henderson" > > > >Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com > > > >To: > > > >Subject: RV-List: GPS Antenna > > > >Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 10:22:51 -0000 > > > > > > > >--> RV-List message posted by: "Neil Henderson" > > > > > > > > > > >Listers > > > > > > > >I'm planning on mounting my GPS antenna on a firewall > > forward bracket > > > just > > > >under the top surface of the cowl, rather than on the > > scuttle under > > > >the > > > > > > >windscreen or externally. This seems to be a favoured > > place adopted > > > >by > > > many > > > >builders. My question is will this location work > > satisfactorily with > > > the > > > >standard antenna supplied with a Garmin 196 or is this only > > > >appropriate > > > > > > >with a powered active unit. Thanks for your input. > > > > > > > >Neil Henderson RV9A nr Aylesbury UK > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:20:49 AM PST US From: "MSices" Subject: RV-List: PIREP first flight --> RV-List message posted by: "MSices" I want to thank all of you who replied with helping ideas concerning my first flight jitters. In the end I found a great local pilot, Bill Bruns, to do my first flight. First flight took place Friday, November 14 at around 11am. Bill flew above the airport at about 3000 feet. After landing, Bill rolled back the canopy and said, "you've got a good airplane here." That afternoon, on her -real- first flight, I took her up and can confirm that statement. Everything tracked straight and true. The plane is a lot easier to land than I had envisioned. Take-off is a blast - after getting the tail up, I added full power, and it throws you back in your seat! Those of you who indicated that the -8's want to wheel land were correct - after touching down with the mains, I let the stick go neutral thinking that the tail would drop on its own, but it didn't - it was just happy to be on the mains for a while. Finally, I nudged the stick back to finish out a nice landing. The stall is very benign - no wing drop at all. What a thrill! Only sqwauks are slightly low vacuum pressure (regulator adjustment), and the prop is hunting a little at high RPM (I think I have this one figured out). According to my Vision Microsystem, the highest oil temps were 195 (but mostly I saw it at 170) and CHT's 395 (mostly at 260-350), so I don't seem to have the overheating yet that some report with the angle valve engine (it was only 40 deg. outside though). I was too busy calming down on this short flight to look at speeds or climb rates or anything like that, but I will say that I had to bring the throttle way back while I was on crosswind in the pattern in order to level off and slow down by the time I got abeam the numbers :>. Thanks again for all of your support over the years - looking forward to meeting more of you at fly-ins. And, oh yeah, keep squashing them rivets. Wanted to type that for a long time. DO NOT ARCHIVE Mike Sices RV8 N339JA Flying! --- ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:22:48 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: RV Formation Clinic, Jan. 16-18 in Lakeland Florida From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" , , , --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" Howdy, As many of you know, there is an RV Fly-In held January 17-18 2003 in Lakeland Florida. This year Team RV's 2nd annual formation clinic is being held there. Warm weather, blue skies, great facilities, and big runways all come together to make the perfect location for our winter training this year. This is a clinic, meaning its hands on. You will receive both ground and air instruction. This course is focused on the beginner, with room for the advanced formation flyer. All skill sets are welcomed and encouraged. There will be experienced instructors there to help the newcomers, and the experienced pilots will be there to chip in and gain valuable stick time. We need as many experienced pilots as we do the new guys. The cost is FREE, the value is priceless. This is a 2 day event, starting with the ground school portion Friday night, January 16th at 7:00pm lasting 2 hours. We will have dinner during the ground school. Saturday will be spent flying. Lots of flying. Newbees will spend their first formation flight in the right/back seat of an experienced pilot so you can first see how its done. Then you will get to fly a 2 ship with an experienced pilot in YOUR right/back seat. Then you will progress as your skills dictate. This is tremendous fun and opportunity for all and I again look forward to putting this on along with the other Team RV members as well as Stu McCurdy, the certification program administrator and flight lead for Falcon Flight. I encourage those of you who have been to one of these to lets your formation friends, experienced and new, know what a fun and challenging experience this is. Chime in on the lists, and forward to your interested RV pilots. So jump on over to the clinics website at http://mstewart.net/michael/rv/teamrv/formationclinic/2004/index.htm read about the details, and register. We hope to see you there. Michael Stewart Team RV ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:32:56 AM PST US From: "Doug Rozendaal" Subject: Re: RV-List: Lycoming model codes --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" Here is a link to a page with all the different designations and the differences. http://www.prime-mover.org/Engines/Lycoming/Lyc_Cert_list.html Tailwinds, Doug Rozendaaal > > >--> RV-List message posted by: "Gary B. Jacobs" > > > >Does anyone know where I could obtain a listing of the model code designations for the different models of Lycoming engines? > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:46:13 AM PST US From: Steven Eberhart Subject: RV-List: The natural progresion of lists - was Food Fight, etc. --> RV-List message posted by: Steven Eberhart Well, this list has gone the way of another builders list I am on. Many years ago, when everyone was actively in the early stages of their project, the list was a great place to find information and, more importantly, get your daily dose of inspiration. As the builders progressed with their projects they forgot about the camaraderie that was generated by the frequent interchange of information. They too routinely get the response "CHECK THE ARCHIVES." You don't create that camaraderie by always being told to go to the archives. Hell, all we would need to do is print out the archive and we would no longer need the builders forum. The archives are a great resource, and I use them a lot, but, If we only go to the archives to find out how things have always been done than we loose one of the GREAT BENEFITS of a forum like this. We have a great think tank here and some of the brain storming sessions have resulted in some truly elegant solutions. When brainstorming, one of the most basic rules it there are no dumb questions or remarks. The dumbest response may be the one that trigger something that becomes the next truly elegant solution. I hope the RV lists get away from the "CHECK THE ARCHIVES" mentality and returns to the "HEY, WE ARE ALL BUILDING SOME OF THE NEATEST AIRCRAFT AROUND, LETS TALK ABOUT IT" mentality. All of the builders lists I have been on go through periods where the phase of the moon isn't right and all hell breaks loose. Several of the really valuable members generally unsubscribe and everyone suffers from the loss of their input. Lets all remember our feelings when we finally got up the courage to place the order for our empennage kit. How would you have felt if the response to your first post was "CHECK THE ARCHIVES" On another subject. I am in the process of painting a friends RV-8 that has been flying for less than a year. When the RV lists settle down a little I will discuss some of the problems I have found with some of the "primer war" solutions that are in the archives. Will probably post some .jpg's of the 4130 parts that are showing rust through one of the most frequently mentioned primers. Soap box mode off, asbestos underwear on, pneumatic rivet squeezer in hand ready for battle :-) Steve Eberhart RV-7A #70362 Jim Sears wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears > > >>Lyle, >>You got my vote. This is the first and last message that I will send >>to the RV list. I am tired of reading all the messages that have nothing >>to do with building an airplane by the all American Boys Club. If you >>don't belong to the club don't talk to us. >>I'm going to the RV10 group on YAHOO. >>Gone. >> > > > Folks, this is just what I was talking about in my other note. The > gentleman is a friend of mine who just started his RV-10. I suggested that > he join the RV-list so that he could maybe learn something from it. Now, > we've lost him to a group that may have much more limited experience than we > do, as a group. I know that Howard could have been a good contributor to > this list, as well. He's never built an airplane; but, he's been around > them for a long time and doesn't mind getting his hands dirty. He knows > quite a bit about aircraft and could have helped answer some of our > questions, once he got comfortable with the list. Now, he's gone. I know > him well enough to know that he won't return. When he gets fed up, he's > goes and doesn't look back. Unfortunately, the RV-list will be the one to > lose out. > Maybe I need to look at the Yahoo list, as well. :-( > > Jim Sears in KY > RV-6A N198JS > EAA Tech Counselor > do not archive > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:11:29 AM PST US From: "Brian Denk" Subject: Re: RV-List: PIREP first flight --> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" RV-List message posted by: "MSices" > > >I want to thank all of you who replied with helping ideas concerning my >first flight jitters. In the end I found a great local pilot, Bill Bruns, >to do my first flight. First flight took place Friday, November 14 at >around 11am. Bill flew above the airport at about 3000 feet. After >landing, Bill rolled back the canopy and said, "you've got a good airplane >here." That afternoon, on her -real- first flight, I took her up and can >confirm that statement. Everything tracked straight and true. The plane >is >a lot easier to land than I had envisioned. Take-off is a blast - after >getting the tail up, I added full power, and it throws you back in your >seat! Those of you who indicated that the -8's want to wheel land were >correct - after touching down with the mains, I let the stick go neutral >thinking that the tail would drop on its own, but it didn't - it was just >happy to be on the mains for a while. Finally, I nudged the stick back to >finish out a nice landing. The stall is very benign - no wing drop at all. >What a thrill! > >Only sqwauks are slightly low vacuum pressure (regulator adjustment), and >the prop is hunting a little at high RPM (I think I have this one figured >out). According to my Vision Microsystem, the highest oil temps were 195 >(but mostly I saw it at 170) and CHT's 395 (mostly at 260-350), so I don't >seem to have the overheating yet that some report with the angle valve >engine (it was only 40 deg. outside though). I was too busy calming down >on >this short flight to look at speeds or climb rates or anything like that, >but I will say that I had to bring the throttle way back while I was on >crosswind in the pattern in order to level off and slow down by the time I >got abeam the numbers :>. > > >Thanks again for all of your support over the years - looking forward to >meeting more of you at fly-ins. And, oh yeah, keep squashing them rivets. >Wanted to type that for a long time. > CONGRATULATIONS, Mike! See, told ya it's a sweet airplane. ;) Keep it high and close to home for a while. HAVE FUN! Brian Denk RV8 N94BD 351 hrs. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:11:47 AM PST US From: linn walters Subject: Re: RV-List: (snip) you flame me --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters Folks, I'm new to this list, so bear with me. I don't know what's gone on in the past, but I have some experience on other lists. My comments to Lyle are below. Lyle Peterson wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Lyle Peterson" > >It is so disheartening to learn that aviators are so narrow minded and >selfish. > They're not, really. I find them most generous, intelligent, and willing to share their knowledge as well as their tools. > If you people had used one tenth of the energy you expended on >blasting my question to providing useful information, you could have >written a book. > Lyle, I, like many others here, don't really remember what the question was, but I think it was the rivet gun question. I also wanted to know because I'm close to where you are in knowledge about the whole riveting thing. I'm a little better off than a rock, but not much. I will hang around and learn. > As is it you only demonstrated that you 1. Don't know >the answers, 2. Think that your knowledge is so unique that it can't be >shared, 3. You have an immense amount of time to waste, 4. You have >absolutely no respect for other people, whether they be builders or not. > That's harsh. Maybe true, but I don't think so. There was one email that started this thread that suggested that the answers are in the archive. I used some of the information to form a list. Wasn't a flame .... I was trying to understand what I should do on the list. Because I was new to the list I wasn't attaching the 'do not archive' (well, that's done) statement so there's some junk littering the archives. OK, I'll accept the noodle treatment and apologize. But I digress. There are some caustic individuals on the other lists I subscribe to also. I just take the comments with a large grain of salt, consider the source and move on. I have been blasted too, by folks that don't know me. I have also been educated, and will put up with someone who didn't get any last week and is having a bad day. I get that way sometimes, and although I don't mean it, my post comes out sarcastic. Well, if it's aimed at me ..... I don't give a poop. There's some useful info buried in the sarcasm. >Someone suggested that the question was 'stupid.' The only stupid >question is one that you can't answer! > The question wasn't labelled 'stupid', if I remember correctly ..... which may not be true either. It was labelled 'redundant'. 'Been there before', 'repetitive', but not stupid. There are no stupid questions. Stupid answers maybe. >I checked the archives for the "gazillion" answers to be found there. I >found four and not all of them pertained directly to my question. None >of them covered all the questions I had posed. > But, Fred Kunkle sent us an attachment with some info. In it was a lot of good stuff, and I don't have the knowledge to understand it all ..... but I will. For this email I looked up 'flames'. 1300 of them showed up, but there were a lot of them pertaining to real burning-type flames. Lyle's email was there too. >A few responded off list. They probably did not want to be caught by >the lords of the list giving information to a new builder. I do thank >those few for the information they so generously shared. They are very >unlike the rest of the listers. Some two thousand people on these lists >and only a very few are willing to answer. Rather, several find the >time to waste flaming the questioner. The thread continues under the >guise of a 'Food Fight.' How charming! > Hey! I did that, thank you very much! It does resemble one doesn't it? After the initial 'nasty' email though, I don't remember any negative ones other than comments about how the list should be 'used'. Ok, that wasn't directed at you, but the list at large, and is only their opinion. I understand their feeling about getting the same question over and over again, but I don't share their view. I've posted a lot of the same info (on other lists .... ) many times because the question came up again. So what? I'm pretty opiniated and here's a chance to share my thoughts. I hope that along the way I've helped a few souls. >So many messages use an existing subject because so few of you have >figured out how to start a new thread on the list. Shame, shame. Look >at the bottom of the message for the information you need. You don't >even have to ask a question of the list, and thus get flamed for a >stupid question. > Yeah, some threads go on and on with the same subject line but the subject has really deviated a lot. Happens everywhere. This list isn't so different from any other, with the exception of the main theme. >I did envision one day flying it to Oshkosh. If I do, which is >doubtful, I will park it in the Vintage area. There are some folks >there that will talk decently to you about airplanes and lots of other >things. > If you get through the building process, and many don't, you really should take the bird to Oskosh or Lakeland or both. It's a wonderful experience. I took my Pitts to Lakeland for many years before it just got to be too much trouble getting it there along with my ground transportation and camper. When you build an RV, you become part of the largest type family of homebuilts. I've been to a few RV fly-ins with my RV friend, and they're as nice and friendly as any other group. I'm also a member of Antique/Classic (now Vintage Aircraft) and like those folks too. >If you get too many copies of this email, use the delete key. > Yeah, that works. But I dislike multiple copies on multiple lists ..... and that was my gripe ....... but I'll continue to do my part by answering only in one list, and only the first copy. >Thanks for nothing, > Well, Lyle I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm sorry that you had to send your email too. I detect a lot of anger in it, and I can tell you that anger is a destructive emotion. I've really suffered from it and had to take anger management classes as a result. Maybe that's why I'm so thick-skinned. Who knows? I don't take negative comments from people who don't know me in a personal way. Life goes on, and I'm going to make the best of it. >Lyle Peterson > Well, if you fade away Lyle, it's been nice to know you .... if only briefly. I hope you hang in there though, and keep asking questions. There are a lot of us that don't know enough to ask the question so you're obviously ahead of us!!! Like one email I read this morning before answering this one, I would feel bad if you didn't get the help you needed and something bad happened. We all do. Even the 'nasty email' ones. I may be flamed for ranting, but that's the price the list pays for being an open forum!!!! If you move on to the Yahoo groups, I'll see you there. I'm registered there too, but don't loke Yahoo's setup. My own personal observation ..... but I stick with them anyway. Hope your day gets better! Linn Walters ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:14:43 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: PIREP first flight From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" Congrats Mike. So now that the first flight is done, and you are feeling every emotion known to man, can you reflect back a bit on your decision to not take the first departure. I know it is early, but it is also all fresh in your mind. I am sure other builders would like to know you how you now feel, having given the first reins up. Mike Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of MSices Subject: RV-List: PIREP first flight --> RV-List message posted by: "MSices" I want to thank all of you who replied with helping ideas concerning my first flight jitters. In the end I found a great local pilot, Bill Bruns, to do my first flight. First flight took place Friday, November 14 at around 11am. Bill flew above the airport at about 3000 feet. After landing, Bill rolled back the canopy and said, "you've got a good airplane here." That afternoon, on her -real- first flight, I took her up and can confirm that statement. Everything tracked straight and true. The plane is a lot easier to land than I had envisioned. Take-off is a blast - after getting the tail up, I added full power, and it throws you back in your seat! Those of you who indicated that the -8's want to wheel land were correct - after touching down with the mains, I let the stick go neutral thinking that the tail would drop on its own, but it didn't - it was just happy to be on the mains for a while. Finally, I nudged the stick back to finish out a nice landing. The stall is very benign - no wing drop at all. What a thrill! Only sqwauks are slightly low vacuum pressure (regulator adjustment), and the prop is hunting a little at high RPM (I think I have this one figured out). According to my Vision Microsystem, the highest oil temps were 195 (but mostly I saw it at 170) and CHT's 395 (mostly at 260-350), so I don't seem to have the overheating yet that some report with the angle valve engine (it was only 40 deg. outside though). I was too busy calming down on this short flight to look at speeds or climb rates or anything like that, but I will say that I had to bring the throttle way back while I was on crosswind in the pattern in order to level off and slow down by the time I got abeam the numbers :>. Thanks again for all of your support over the years - looking forward to meeting more of you at fly-ins. And, oh yeah, keep squashing them rivets. Wanted to type that for a long time. DO NOT ARCHIVE Mike Sices RV8 N339JA Flying! --- = == == == == ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:28:51 AM PST US From: flmike Subject: RV-List: Re: Remote control winch? --> RV-List message posted by: flmike You might be able to adapt a wireless starter or keyless entry system like the car alarm guys sell. I think they can be had for $30 range. Nifty key fob control. Just be sure it is a stand-alone unit, not an alarm add-on. If the winch is 12 VDC, then you have the right power supply too. Mike __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:46:47 AM PST US From: "Charles Rowbotham" Subject: Re: RV-List: PIREP first flight --> RV-List message posted by: "Charles Rowbotham" Mike, CONGRATULATIONS and WELL DONE !! Chuck & Dave Rowbotham RV-8A >From: "MSices" >Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com >To: >Subject: RV-List: PIREP first flight >Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 07:20:50 -0600 > >--> RV-List message posted by: "MSices" > > >I want to thank all of you who replied with helping ideas concerning my >first flight jitters. In the end I found a great local pilot, Bill Bruns, >to do my first flight. First flight took place Friday, November 14 at >around 11am. Bill flew above the airport at about 3000 feet. After >landing, Bill rolled back the canopy and said, "you've got a good airplane >here." That afternoon, on her -real- first flight, I took her up and can >confirm that statement. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:50:24 AM PST US From: "Charles Rowbotham" Subject: Re: RV-List: Stupid questions and archives and do not archive --> RV-List message posted by: "Charles Rowbotham" All, I understand both sides of the discussion - Been There. I remember asking those early questions and the patience the old timers had with us new builders. If you remember your initial building hesitations - it's much easier to refer the new builders to the archive and or provide additional support. To the new builder - keep asking the questions. Chuck Rowbotham RV-8A >From: kempthornes >Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV-List: Stupid questions and archives and do not archive >Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 12:56:37 -0800 > >--> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes > >By all means, check the archives. > >Now, there are those who do check the archives and don't find quite what >they want. Then there are those who are not quite adept at checking >archives. Finally, there are those who are new to the list and don't know >about archives. Wait - really finally are those who are new to computer >usage who really want to use the system to help them build but are >intimidated by it all. > >Be nice to everyone. When I worked in Silicon Valley someone said it is >good to be nice to everyone since they may be your boss tomorrow! > >We need a FAQ to be posted every week or so, huh? You do grok faq don't >you? >do not archive > >K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne >RV6-a N7HK - Three trips to OSH now. >PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA) > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:15:42 AM PST US From: "C. Rabaut" Subject: Re: RV-List: PIREP first flight --> RV-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" CONGRATULATIONS MIKE !!!!!! Now that's what our list(s) are really aimed at. Not the crying & whining. Chuck do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: MSices Subject: RV-List: PIREP first flight > --> RV-List message posted by: "MSices" > > > I want to thank all of you who replied with helping ideas concerning my > first flight jitters. In the end I found a great local pilot, Bill Bruns, > to do my first flight. First flight took place Friday, November 14 at > around 11am. Bill flew above the airport at about 3000 feet. After > landing, Bill rolled back the canopy and said, "you've got a good airplane > here." That afternoon, on her -real- first flight, I took her up and can > confirm that statement. Everything tracked straight and true. The plane is > a lot easier to land than I had envisioned. Take-off is a blast - after > getting the tail up, I added full power, and it throws you back in your > seat! Those of you who indicated that the -8's want to wheel land were > correct - after touching down with the mains, I let the stick go neutral > thinking that the tail would drop on its own, but it didn't - it was just > happy to be on the mains for a while. Finally, I nudged the stick back to > finish out a nice landing. The stall is very benign - no wing drop at all. > What a thrill! > > Only sqwauks are slightly low vacuum pressure (regulator adjustment), and > the prop is hunting a little at high RPM (I think I have this one figured > out). According to my Vision Microsystem, the highest oil temps were 195 > (but mostly I saw it at 170) and CHT's 395 (mostly at 260-350), so I don't > seem to have the overheating yet that some report with the angle valve > engine (it was only 40 deg. outside though). I was too busy calming down on > this short flight to look at speeds or climb rates or anything like that, > but I will say that I had to bring the throttle way back while I was on > crosswind in the pattern in order to level off and slow down by the time I > got abeam the numbers :>. > > > Thanks again for all of your support over the years - looking forward to > meeting more of you at fly-ins. And, oh yeah, keep squashing them rivets. > Wanted to type that for a long time. > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > Mike Sices > RV8 N339JA > Flying! > --- > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:35:44 AM PST US From: "Phil N" Subject: RV-List: 4130 parts showing rust through primer --> RV-List message posted by: "Phil N" OK, I'll saddle up and be the first to bite! I'm stopping by Loeb Electric tonight after work to pick up my new infrared heater so that I can start priming the stack of parts that's accumulated on my bench over the last week. Before I do that, can you expound a little on the problems you've seen with 4130 parts showing rust through the primer? I'd sure hate to have the same problem, and if I'm using the primer in question I may reconsider or redouble my efforts at getting as near-perfect a surface before priming. TIA, Phil Getting sassified with a little work on the tail (I can spell that better than empennage :-) > Will probably post some .jpg's of the 4130 parts that are > showing rust through one of the most frequently mentioned primers. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:56:22 AM PST US From: "Bill Schlatterer" Subject: RE: RV-List: now "Food Fight" - FIRST TIMER RESPONSE --> RV-List message posted by: "Bill Schlatterer" Just a comment from "Stupid in Little Rock". I notice there are two kinds of folks on this list. Those that use it for themselves as entertainment and those that also use it for information and to help others. If you're in the first group, then chill a little and enjoy it. If you're in the latter group, pat yourselves on the back. You guys have no idea how many folks read these lists but don't ask stupid questions just because we don't want to bother anyone. I have read this list religiously for over a year, used the archives, responded off line, and until today never posted a question to the list itself. I have made it through my emp kit on a 7qb mostly because of some of the great "real time" information that I pick up here and would be sorely missing the answers to "stupid" questions others ask. Believe it or not, there are some of us that are so stupid that we don't know what a stupid question is until one of the less patient labels it so for us. ( it's an Arkansas thing ) My only point is that folks like Sam B and Dan C and others do a great service by patiently answering questions and pointing us in the right direction. Though I have never posted a stupid question ;o) for fear of receiving this kind of response, I would ask a little patience 'cause sooner than later I'm gonna! You do yourselves a disservice (I think that's a word) when you underestimate how much benefit you provide to others. The reason I follow this list and am building a RV is because of the folks who took the time, a deep breath, and answered way too many questions with a grin and some contagious enthusiasm. PLEASE keep it up! Thanks to all of you who do answer, gently correct the errors of our ways, and remember a time when you needed answers as well. I'm done now! Bill Schlatterer 7qb waiting on fuse/wings do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Terry Watson Subject: RE: RV-List: now "Food Fight" --> RV-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" No, I think Chuck has got it just right, except that the rest of us need to remember how to use the delete key. Stupid questions are what people ask to become unstupid. Nosewheel or tailwheel, 8 or 9 or 7 or 10 or 4 or 3, primer or no primer or what primer, where to buy tools and what tools to buy are stupid questions only when we know the answers. For many of us, we got the answers right here. I have little bitty wires running all over my airplane and I have a dozen or a hundred questions about hooking them up. Those of you who know all about avionics will no doubt consider at least some of them stupid questions, as I might when I get it all figured out and wonder why it wasn't obvious to me before. But I thought that's what this list was for - unstupifying us. Use the archives, use the do not archive, use the delete key. And be nice to these guys. They are us, and they are helping pay the freight. Terry RV-8A wiring, sort of. Seattle ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 07:59:05 AM PST US From: linn walters Subject: Re: RV-List: The natural progresion of lists - was Food Fight, etc. --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters Since I'm on a roll, and immune to flaming, I'll comment! Steven Eberhart wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Steven Eberhart > >Well, this list has gone the way of another builders list I am on. Many >years ago, when everyone was actively in the early stages of their >project, the list was a great place to find information and, more >importantly, get your daily dose of inspiration. As the builders >progressed with their projects they forgot about the camaraderie that >was generated by the frequent interchange of information. They too >routinely get the response "CHECK THE ARCHIVES." You don't create that >camaraderie by always being told to go to the archives. Hell, all we >would need to do is print out the archive and we would no longer need >the builders forum. > And kill a lot of trees!!!! God I couldn't resist that!!! :-D . Oh no, another food fight!!! (I hope not! Don't change the subject line!!!) But I don't think you'll have anyone dispute what you said. >The archives are a great resource, and I use them a lot, but, If we only >go to the archives to find out how things have always been done than we >loose one of the GREAT BENEFITS of a forum like this. We have a great >think tank here and some of the brain storming sessions have resulted in >some truly elegant solutions. When brainstorming, one of the most basic >rules it there are no dumb questions or remarks. The dumbest response >may be the one that trigger something that becomes the next truly >elegant solution. > AMEN!!! Since we got here by a rivet gun question, in the time between the first RV rivet and now, guns have changed so the archives may not be relevant, even if the subject had been visited many times. Works for almost any subject. >I hope the RV lists get away from the "CHECK THE ARCHIVES" mentality and >returns to the "HEY, WE ARE ALL BUILDING SOME OF THE NEATEST AIRCRAFT >AROUND, LETS TALK ABOUT IT" mentality. > They will, or they'll die. I, for one, have been lucky ..... my time on the point of the pin has been rather limited, which is strange since I'm so opinionated. Lucky, I guess. I still disagree with some things folks post, but we usually agree to disagree. I never try to change someones mind, but hope to offer food for thought. >All of the builders lists I have been on go through periods where the >phase of the moon isn't right and all hell breaks loose. Several of the >really valuable members generally unsubscribe and everyone suffers from >the loss of their input. Lets all remember our feelings when we finally >got up the courage to place the order for our empennage kit. How would >you have felt if the response to your first post was "CHECK THE ARCHIVES" > And that loss is immeasurable. I've sent posts that, when I read it on the list, came across far from it's intended target. I apologize for them. I'll do it again here, I'm sure, so I'll apologize in advance. As I post to the list in the future, I hope that you get to know me well enough to give me the benefit of the doubt and let it pass. We could all use a little tolerance now and then. >On another subject. I am in the process of painting a friends RV-8 that >has been flying for less than a year. When the RV lists settle down a >little I will discuss some of the problems I have found with some of the >"primer war" solutions that are in the archives. Will probably post >some .jpg's of the 4130 parts that are showing rust through one of the >most frequently mentioned primers. > Don't wait. I'm going to give you my diagnosis without knowing which primer or method of application or..... well being ignorant hasn't ever stopped me from being opinionated. Damn, I'm repeating myself a lot lately!!! Preparation. Now how simple was that??? >Soap box mode off, asbestos underwear on, pneumatic rivet squeezer in >hand ready for battle :-) > No! No! Not the rivet squeezer!!! That's assault with a deadly weapon, unless it's self defense, and that's OK!!! :-D ! By the way, speaking of Rivet squeezers .... what color is the most used ..... couldn't find it in the archive! OK, OK I'll back off. No need to answer that one!!! Even if you think I'm serious. >Steve Eberhart >RV-7A #70362 > Thanks for the post Steve!! Linn Walters Pitts S-1E Grumman AA-1B Piper Traumahawk RV-10 kit in the near future! Here it is!!! Do Not Archive!!! ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:05:06 AM PST US From: rob ray Subject: Re: RV-List: PIREP first flight --> RV-List message posted by: rob ray Mike; CONGRATS Dude! RR RV4 1100 hours, 300 upside down... MSices wrote: --> RV-List message posted by: "MSices" I want to thank all of you who replied with helping ideas concerning my first flight jitters. In the end I found a great local pilot, Bill Bruns, to do my first flight. First flight took place Friday, November 14 at around 11am. Bill flew above the airport at about 3000 feet. After landing, Bill rolled back the canopy and said, "you've got a good airplane here." That afternoon, on her -real- first flight, I took her up and can confirm that statement. Everything tracked straight and true. The plane is a lot easier to land than I had envisioned. Take-off is a blast - after getting the tail up, I added full power, and it throws you back in your seat! Those of you who indicated that the -8's want to wheel land were correct - after touching down with the mains, I let the stick go neutral thinking that the tail would drop on its own, but it didn't - it was just happy to be on the mains for a while. Finally, I nudged the stick back to finish out a nice landing. The stall is very benign - no wing drop at all. What a thrill! Only sqwauks are slightly low vacuum pressure (regulator adjustment), and the prop is hunting a little at high RPM (I think I have this one figured out). According to my Vision Microsystem, the highest oil temps were 195 (but mostly I saw it at 170) and CHT's 395 (mostly at 260-350), so I don't seem to have the overheating yet that some report with the angle valve engine (it was only 40 deg. outside though). I was too busy calming down on this short flight to look at speeds or climb rates or anything like that, but I will say that I had to bring the throttle way back while I was on crosswind in the pattern in order to level off and slow down by the time I got abeam the numbers :>. Thanks again for all of your support over the years - looking forward to meeting more of you at fly-ins. And, oh yeah, keep squashing them rivets. Wanted to type that for a long time. DO NOT ARCHIVE Mike Sices RV8 N339JA Flying! --- --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 08:16:27 AM PST US From: Sam Buchanan Subject: Re: RV-List: No subject as you will give it a new one shortly after you flame me --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan Lyle Peterson wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Lyle Peterson" > > It is so disheartening to learn that aviators are so narrow minded and > selfish. Hmmmmm.....doesn't sound like the hundreds of aviators I have been honored to meet over the years..... > > Someone suggested that the question was 'stupid.' The only stupid > question is one that you can't answer! That is a stretch. One poster referred to his questions as "stupid". Matter of fact, I bet all of us have asked some stupid questions at one time or another! :-) > > I checked the archives for the "gazillion" answers to be found there. I > found four and not all of them pertained directly to my question. None > of them covered all the questions I had posed. Interesting. Here are the results of my searches in the archive with keywords from the original post: "rivet gun" 917 hits "3X" 555 hits "2X" 971 hits "rivet sets" 146 hits "C frame" 89 hits "swivel set" 70 hits "yokes" 226 hits "pneumatic" 968 hits "rivet squeezer" 291 hits Obviously nobody would want to read all those posts. But a ton of good info is in the archives, much more than just "four" posts. > I did envision one day flying it to Oshkosh. If I do, which is > doubtful, I will park it in the Vintage area. There are some folks > there that will talk decently to you about airplanes and lots of other > things. I am sure that is true. You will no doubt find the "Vintage" aviators to be very decent folks.......just as you will find the RVers to be if you change your mind and decide to park in their area. :-) Matter of fact, many of us have owned Vintage aircraft in the past. Matter of fact, some of US are beginning to be considered as "vintage"!?! :-) > Thanks for nothing, Lighten up, Lyle. Building an aircraft is going to require MUCH MUCH more patience than you have exhibited in your post. RV builders are a great resource as you progress along the path of putting your RV-6 in the air. Now is not the time to be burning bridges. Best regards, Sam Buchanan ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:12 AM PST US From: Scott Bilinski Subject: Re: RV-List: 4130 parts showing rust through primer --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski The way I understand it is most primers are not moisture/water proof. This is dated info though and the newer primers might be. Anyone know for sure? At 10:32 AM 11/18/03 -0500, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Phil N" > >OK, I'll saddle up and be the first to bite! > >I'm stopping by Loeb Electric tonight after work to pick up my new >infrared heater so that I can start priming the stack of parts that's >accumulated on my bench over the last week. Before I do that, can you >expound a little on the problems you've seen with 4130 parts showing >rust through the primer? > >I'd sure hate to have the same problem, and if I'm using the primer in >question I may reconsider or redouble my efforts at getting as >near-perfect a surface before priming. > >TIA, Phil >Getting sassified with a little work on the tail (I can spell that >better than empennage :-) > >> Will probably post some .jpg's of the 4130 parts that are >> showing rust through one of the most frequently mentioned primers. > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:22 AM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: RV-List: Safety Concerns --> RV-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" Your Lycoming is "hard" timed. It doesn't vary. That is why there are schemes to retard the fixed timing for starting... Impulses and show of sparks. Once running the stock mag doesn't change its timing. So static timing works very well for your engine. No need for a dynamic timing light. Now if you put on an electronic ignition, then and only then you might need a timing light. But even these are timed from a fixed point. With your car, they are load and rpm dependent so the need for dynamic timing. I would save my money for something else. Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org Always looking for articles for the Experimenter ----- Original Message ----- From: "John" Subject: RV-List: Safety Concerns > --> RV-List message posted by: "John" > > I have always timed my Lycoming with the #1 cylinder at TDC and the timing > mark aligned with the case halves. This has worked for a long time. > > I now want to get more technical and have purchased a fancy digital timing > light that has a LCD screen with direct read out. > > My concern is: How to use the light on a running engine...I have an RV6A and > would have to be up on a step stool behind the prop in order to see what's > going on. The notion of slipping off the stool, or otherwise getting tangled > up in the prop has me, frankly, more than "concerned" -I can't see standing > in from of the prop with the engine going and using the light.... > > What do you techies do in such a situation? > > (And, yes, I have checked the archives first.) > > John > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:52 AM PST US From: Scott Brumbelow Subject: Re: RV-List: PIREP first flight --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Brumbelow I am not Mike, but having recently gone through the same decision process, and having someone else do the first flight on my RV-8A, I can tell you that I have NO regrets about not doing the first flight myself. I have about 10 hours on my aircraft now, and can tell you that I spend zero time thinking about that first flight, but instead spend all my time thinking about (anticipating) the next flight. However, if I make myself reflect on that first flight, I find that I think I actually enjoyed it more having someone else do it and me doing the second flight. There were no first flight jitters for me and certainly more confidence knowing that the aircraft was at least somewhat proven. So to get to the point, I have no regrets about not doing the first flight myself, and know - without hesitation - I would do it the exact same way again. My ego did not require me to make it, and as I mentioned above, I don't even think about it. I am enjoying the flying now way too much to give this a second thought. Others may disagree, but there are far to many other aspects of this to enjoy. I just don't see very many people dwelling excessively on that first flight once you get flying. Yes, believe me I know it is all you think about while you are building and before it happens, but once it happens you very quickly move on - regardless of who actually did the first flight. Hope that helps... Scott in MEM RV-8A 10 hours do not archive "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" > > Congrats Mike. > > So now that the first flight is done, and you are feeling every emotion > known to man, can you reflect back a bit on your decision to not take > the first departure. I know it is early, but it is also all fresh in > your mind. I am sure other builders would like to know you how you now > feel, having given the first reins up. > > Mike > Do not archive > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of MSices > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: PIREP first flight > > --> RV-List message posted by: "MSices" > > I want to thank all of you who replied with helping ideas concerning my > first flight jitters. In the end I found a great local pilot, Bill > Bruns, > to do my first flight. First flight took place Friday, November 14 at > around 11am. Bill flew above the airport at about 3000 feet. After > landing, Bill rolled back the canopy and said, "you've got a good > airplane > here." That afternoon, on her -real- first flight, I took her up and > can > confirm that statement. Everything tracked straight and true. The > plane is > a lot easier to land than I had envisioned. Take-off is a blast - after > getting the tail up, I added full power, and it throws you back in your > seat! Those of you who indicated that the -8's want to wheel land were > correct - after touching down with the mains, I let the stick go neutral > thinking that the tail would drop on its own, but it didn't - it was > just > happy to be on the mains for a while. Finally, I nudged the stick back > to > finish out a nice landing. The stall is very benign - no wing drop at > all. > What a thrill! > > Only sqwauks are slightly low vacuum pressure (regulator adjustment), > and > the prop is hunting a little at high RPM (I think I have this one > figured > out). According to my Vision Microsystem, the highest oil temps were > 195 > (but mostly I saw it at 170) and CHT's 395 (mostly at 260-350), so I > don't > seem to have the overheating yet that some report with the angle valve > engine (it was only 40 deg. outside though). I was too busy calming > down on > this short flight to look at speeds or climb rates or anything like > that, > but I will say that I had to bring the throttle way back while I was on > crosswind in the pattern in order to level off and slow down by the time > I > got abeam the numbers :>. > > Thanks again for all of your support over the years - looking forward to > meeting more of you at fly-ins. And, oh yeah, keep squashing them > rivets. > Wanted to type that for a long time. > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > Mike Sices > RV8 N339JA > Flying! > --- > > > == > == > == > == > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 08:40:38 AM PST US From: "Phil N" Subject: RV-List: OT: Can I make this engine work in my -8 somehow? --> RV-List message posted by: "Phil N" I don't think the battery in the tail will help much with the CG though. The wife might complain about the fuel burn, too. http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccsshb/12cyl/ Phil ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 08:47:28 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: Food Fight Watson Reply From: lm4@juno.com --> RV-List message posted by: lm4@juno.com Jim, Please calm down. It would seem that you are not afraid to say what is on your mind and you articulate those things so very well. It is for that reason that when you talk I listen; weather it's RV answers or commentary. This list can little afford to lose people like yourself and if it does what will it be left with ? Larry Mac Donald do not archive On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 06:42:28 -0500 Jim Sears writes: > --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears > > > > Smart people don't make others feel stupid. They usually have > patience > > and understanding. > > I agree with Jim on this and have sent a note to Lyle Peterson > offline to > apologize for the behavior of some of our listers. I sincerely hope > that he > doesn't think all of us on the list are quick to belittle our newbie > friends > in the same manner he's been made an example of. Folks, it's this > kind of > behavior that's lost a lot of members on this list. Unfortunately, > a goodly > portion of them were very good contributors, to include one Van's > employee > that I remember, who decided that being flamed was not a good thing. > I > quit contributing as much, for the same reason. > > It's a shame that so much of the bandwidth on this list is used to > communicate useless messages that could be done at the chat room or > offline > somewhere else. We don't have to agree on everything; but, we do > have to do > it in a civil manner so that we don't run folks off. Lyle is left > with a > very bad taste in his mouth and may be very reluctant to ask any > more > questions. I, for one, would feel badly if he did something wrong > on his > airplane that could cause him harm later just because he was afraid > to ask > us a question. Wouldn't you? > > When I got on this list, it was a very useful tool. Today, it's > turned into > something that doesn't come up to the standards it had when I joined > up in > 1996. Some of the stuff that comes in via the RV-list is no better > than the > spam I delete regularly and a good example of why I don't belong to > chat > rooms. Guys, if you have to carry on about something, switch to the > chat > room and go for it! At least the main list will be left for more > serious > stuff, like helping newbies with questions that have been asked a > million > times. > > I can't remember what Lyle's original question was. I just hope I > answered > it for him, to the best of my ability. I'm not sure I did and have > apologized to him for it. > I can't answer all of the questions because my knowledge base is > limited to > what I've experienced. > > Jim Sears in KY > RV-6A N198JS > EAA Tech Counselor > do not archive > > > > _-> = > = > = > = > > > > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 08:47:28 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: Remote control winch? From: lm4@juno.com --> RV-List message posted by: lm4@juno.com Dan, Have you thought of using the door lock solonoids and car fob/car receiver for a remote control curcuit ? Larry Mac Donald do not archive On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 19:03:09 -0800 (PST) Dan DeNeal writes: > --> RV-List message posted by: Dan DeNeal > > I have a winch that was left in my hangar from the > last person that had the hangar. I thought I would > never need it to pull my RV6a into the hangar since > the RV's are easy to push or pull. > > The end or March this past year we had some snow that > blanketed the area leaving the taxiway in front of my > hangar very slippery. When I realized I couldn't push > the plane back into the hangar because of the ice, I > grabbed the cable on the winch and hooked it to the > RV. > The winch saved the day!!! > > The winch is an old winch and uses an extension wire > you have to unwind all the way to the front of the > plane. Then you have to hold down the switch while the > cable is winding up while your other hand is steering > the front wheel. > > Where can I buy something like a garage door remote > control that I could use to replace the extension > wire. I'm looking for the remote and the receiver. I > can find remotes but all the receivers seem to be > attached to the garage door mechanisam. It just needs > to start and stop. > > Dan DeNeal > RV6A N256GD > I love my plane!!! > > __________________________________ > > > > _-> = > = > = > = > > > > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 08:54:49 AM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: RV-List: Remote control winch? --> RV-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" I have made several winches using a coaster brake from a bike. One feature you should always use is a low voltage relay on the control cord. I used a heating pump relay that used 12 volts to control the 110 going to the motor. Then in bad weather or if you dropped the switch into a puddle, there would not be a shock hazard. The relay also eliminates the voltage drop from the long control cable and you can use very light cord for the control. If you really want to hold 110 AC in your hand, made sure that your winch is plugged into a Ground Fault Interrupter (GFI) These are cheap ($10) and work well. Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org Always looking for articles for the Experimenter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlie & Tupper England" Subject: Re: RV-List: Remote control winch? > --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie & Tupper England > > Dan DeNeal wrote: > > >--> RV-List message posted by: Dan DeNeal > > > >I have a winch that was left in my hangar from the > >last person that had the hangar. I thought I would > >never need it to pull my RV6a into the hangar since > >the RV's are easy to push or pull. > > > >The end or March this past year we had some snow that > >blanketed the area leaving the taxiway in front of my > >hangar very slippery. When I realized I couldn't push > >the plane back into the hangar because of the ice, I > >grabbed the cable on the winch and hooked it to the > >RV. > >The winch saved the day!!! > > > >The winch is an old winch and uses an extension wire > >you have to unwind all the way to the front of the > >plane. Then you have to hold down the switch while the > >cable is winding up while your other hand is steering > >the front wheel. > > > >Where can I buy something like a garage door remote > >control that I could use to replace the extension > >wire. I'm looking for the remote and the receiver. I > >can find remotes but all the receivers seem to be > >attached to the garage door mechanisam. It just needs > >to start and stop. > > > >Dan DeNeal > >RV6A N256GD > >I love my plane!!! > > > > The requirement to hold the button might become a very important > damage-prevention feature. How about a switch you can hold in (activate > with) your teeth, wired in parallel to the retract button on your > current controller? It then becomes a 'dead man' switch if you drop it. > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 08:55:21 AM PST US From: Steven Eberhart Subject: Re: RV-List: 4130 parts showing rust through primer --> RV-List message posted by: Steven Eberhart THe plane is an RV-8 that was delivered before Van's switched to powder coating the 4130 steel parts. We have had to clean up rust that was starting to show through the elevator and rudder brackets. It was like the primer was porous and didn't seal against moisture. The paint used was RM DP-40. THere seems to be a distinct difference between the RM DP primer and the PPG DP primer. I cleaned up the rust with a wire wheel on the Dremel and primed with NAPA rattle can self etching primer and then everything was primed with the same PPG DP-40LF that the entire plane was primed with. Color coats were PPG Concept. Steve Eberhart Finishing up the paint job on RV-8 N49KS and building RV-7A N14SE Phil N wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Phil N" > > OK, I'll saddle up and be the first to bite! > > I'm stopping by Loeb Electric tonight after work to pick up my new > infrared heater so that I can start priming the stack of parts that's > accumulated on my bench over the last week. Before I do that, can you > expound a little on the problems you've seen with 4130 parts showing > rust through the primer? > > I'd sure hate to have the same problem, and if I'm using the primer in > question I may reconsider or redouble my efforts at getting as > near-perfect a surface before priming. > > TIA, Phil > Getting sassified with a little work on the tail (I can spell that > better than empennage :-) > > >>Will probably post some .jpg's of the 4130 parts that are >>showing rust through one of the most frequently mentioned primers. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:05 AM PST US From: BELTEDAIR@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Enough --> RV-List message posted by: BELTEDAIR@aol.com Gentlemen, Ladies, were all in this airplane together. The holiday season is upon us, stress is in the air, but so should be our planes. How about some flight articles of late? Anyway Happy Holidays. Belted Air Power Do Not Archive. ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 09:13:03 AM PST US From: "Glenn Brasch" Subject: Re: RV-List: Food Fight Watson Reply --> RV-List message posted by: "Glenn Brasch" I think the lesson to be learned here is that the reason we are here is to build and learn, learn and build, not to mention the fundamental reason, to help others do the same. I agree with a previous post that much of what I get here is the same as spam to me and I just delete it. No big deal, I can handle that. But maybe we just need to get back to the basics here, the reasons why we all started, and cut down on all the side topics, and help our fellow builders, because God knows, I need the help. Glenn in Arizona -9A Wings DO NOT ARCHIVE ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: RV-List: Food Fight Watson Reply > --> RV-List message posted by: lm4@juno.com > > Jim, > Please calm down. It would seem that you are not afraid to ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 09:22:12 AM PST US From: linn walters Subject: Re: RV-List: No subject as you will give it a new one shortly after you flame me --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters Sam Buchanan wrote: >Lighten up, Lyle. Building an aircraft is going to require MUCH MUCH >more patience than you have exhibited in your post. RV builders are a >great resource as you progress along the path of putting your RV-6 in >the air. Now is not the time to be burning bridges. > >Best regards, > >Sam Buchanan > Very true. Patience and a little thicker skin. From the posts, you've been around a long time. How long? Which RV? Linn (the instigator) Walters ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:19 AM PST US From: Tedd McHenry Subject: Re: RV-List: No subject as you will give it a new one shortly aft er you flame me --> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, Jim Sears wrote: > Folks, this is just what I was talking about in my other note. Jim: With all due respect, it sounded to me as though Howard's leaving had little to do with people not being civil, or any of the other things you discussed in your previous post. He complained about non-RV-related topics and the "all American Boys Club," whatever that means. It sounds to me as though something else put him off, but I can't tell what. I genuinely wish him luck over in Yahoo land. But, as anyone who's used newsgroups and listservers for a few years knows, they all change their character over time, especially if they grow. I'd much rather see people stick around and contribute what they can than go join another list where, in all likelyhood, they will eventually find the same problems that drove them from the RV List. I don't mean to take away from the importance of what you (Jim) or anyone else has said. Genuine politeness is important (not just putting a smiley at the end of a barb). Avoiding subjects that really don't belong is important. For what it's worth, though, I don't consider discussing list etiquette irrelevant, because it's not yet clear to everyone what's okay and what isn't. Tedd McHenry Surrey, BC do not archive ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 09:52:04 AM PST US From: linn walters Subject: Re: RV-List: now "Food Fight" - FIRST TIMER RESPONSE --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters I guess I've been camped on this computer all morning. Afraid I'll miss something!!! Bill Schlatterer wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Bill Schlatterer" > >Just a comment from "Stupid in Little Rock". > High Stupid. Abby here! :-) > I notice there are two kinds >of folks on this list. Those that use it for themselves as entertainment >and those that also use it for information and to help others. If you're in >the first group, then chill a little and enjoy it. If you're in the latter >group, pat yourselves on the back. > Darn, there's the third group. We're fence sitters and do both! And my arm hurts from reaching back so far!!! I try. >You guys have no idea how many folks read these lists but don't ask stupid >questions just because we don't want to bother anyone. > The word is 'disturb'. But we're all disturbed or we wouldn't be in this hobby!!! You need to read the 243 pages of 'rules for lists'. On page 104, the third paragraph down it says 'Lurkers will only be hampered by not chiming in and asking questions or offering comfort to the bretheren (is there a female term like this?), so Peeping Toms should be encouraged to speak up.' ;-) . As far as I know, even the most severely flamed has not suffered any permanent damage, so even the timid should speak up. I'm not timid. I'm on the other end of the scale. I never shut up ..... except when sleeping. > I have read this >list religiously for over a year, used the archives, responded off line, and >until today never posted a question to the list itself. I have made it >through my emp kit on a 7qb mostly because of some of the great "real time" >information that I pick up here and would be sorely missing the answers to >"stupid" questions others ask. Believe it or not, there are some of us that >are so stupid that we don't know what a stupid question is until one of the >less patient labels it so for us. ( it's an Arkansas thing ) > Must be. I remember Stupid Bill :-P . Other than that I think you're pulling my leg. Ya are, aren't you??? So, how far have you progressed??? Maybe we can chat about the QB kit. But not now, I need to check the archives. I'm such a babe in the woods (shop?) that I don't really have a good grasp on the subject. Having too much fun stirring the pot! :-) >My only point is that folks like Sam B and Dan C and others do a great >service by patiently answering questions and pointing us in the right >direction. Though I have never posted a stupid question ;o) for fear of >receiving this kind of response, I would ask a little patience 'cause >sooner than later I'm gonna! > Oh, you bet! But no trophies for that :-( .... too many have attempted it before you. Remember "there's no ..... " Yeah, I thought so. > You do yourselves a disservice (I think that's >a word) when you underestimate how much benefit you provide to others. > Hey, I like this guy! My ego just took a big jump, and I haven't even done anything!!! Oooh, stroke, stroke ;-) . >The reason I follow this list and am building a RV is because of the folks >who took the time, a deep breath, and answered way too many questions with a >grin and some contagious enthusiasm. > There you go again. Yoy're pulling my leg. See, I know the real reasons. You're building because you have delusions of saving money by building your own and flying it cheaply. Same reason I built my Pitts. Well there's other reasons too, like self satisfaction and having something you can work on and improve/unimprove ...... whatever .... without the FAA getting in the way. I won't disillusion you right now. I'll just offer encouragement and soft, soothing words. Remain uninformed. It's good for you :-D ! > PLEASE keep it up! Thanks to all of >you who do answer, gently correct the errors of our ways, and remember a >time when you needed answers as well. > Heck, I can still remember a few hours back!!! I ain't that far gone!! >I'm done now! > OOOh, I hope not Bill! You've just got me started 8-) ! >Bill Schlatterer >7qb waiting on fuse/wings > Why are you waiting? Are the other shipments suffering because of the -10 kits? >do not archive > I hope not! I'd hate to think someone would try to make sense out of this in a month!!! Linn (loudmouth) Walters ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 10:12:31 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV-List: LOC? - What's That? --> RV-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Dear Listers, The List of Contributors (LOC) is a directory of everyone's name that made a Contribution during this year's List Fund Raiser. Its kind of my way of publicly thanking everyone that so generously made a Contribution to support the continued operation and upgrade of these Email Lists. This year's List of Contributors is just around the corner; I'll be posting the it on or about December 1. Support your Lists today and make sure that your name is on the upcoming LOC! Your friends will be checking, no doubt, to see if YOU make your Contribution because THEY did! :-) Support Contribution Info - http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft do not archive ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:59 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: Food Fight Watson Reply From: glenn.williams@businessacft.bombardier.com 11/18/2003 11:49:39 AM --> RV-List message posted by: glenn.williams@businessacft.bombardier.com I have not been following this thread too closely but if I get the jist of the messages being thrown around is to check the archives before you post etc. However the way I see it is pretty simple. 1. Be courteous to all listers who post a message irregardless of the question. Remember you too were once a "newbie" 2. the only stupid question is the one that was not asked. 3. maybe the question posted just needed some validity from real time people instead of an automated archived response. 4. If you dont like the question being asked don't answer and hit your delete key. 5. Remember your response is going out for all the world to see and you are responding to a "real" person. 6. finally as Matt has posted. THINK BEFORE YOU POST. Happy holidays to all do not archive Glenn Williams p.s. to any who care my unit has been alerted and I may be going to Iraq for 15 months. I will let you know when I know if I am to be deployed. ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 11:00:26 AM PST US From: "Dana Overall" Subject: Re: RV-List: PIREP first flight --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" Congrats man, that is great news in and of itself but a heck a lot more interesting than Shakespeare, lawyers, tort, mashing tape and food fights:-) Seriously, concrats and be careful. Dana Overall Richmond, KY RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" Finish kit Buying Instruments. Hangar flying my Dynon. http://rvflying.tripod.com do not archive Great deals on high-speed Internet access as low as $26.95. https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.) ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 11:18:37 AM PST US From: "John Helms" Subject: RV-List: Re: Glenn's post/Food fight, etc (certainly non RV) --> RV-List message posted by: "John Helms" Glenn, Seriously, from a former Army officer who was in Iraq 10 years ago, if you go east, keep your head down, and go get him so that place will settle down. And thanks for serving all of us. And to poke fun at the previous thread a little, and because it's a slight pet peeve of mine... Straight from the dictionary... proper term is regardless. irregardless [ rri gard less ] adverb ( nonstandard ) See regardless [Early 20th century. Origin uncertain: probably a blend of irrespective and regardless.] Word Usage Nonstandard usage: A moment's thought will reveal that since the prefix ir- means "not" (as it does in irrespective), and the suffix -less means "without,"irregardless is an illogical double negative. As such it is to be avoided, in favor of irrespective or regardless. I know where the origin is... the military. Same people who use "orientate" in place of "orient" when talking about figuring out their relative position with respect to a map. Military officers trying to make memos, papers, orders, and such sound more official. John "JT" Helms been to Iraq, as a helicopter pilot, wish I was there to help. for gosh sakes don't clutter the archive with this do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: RV-List: Food Fight Watson Reply --> RV-List message posted by: glenn.williams@businessacft.bombardier.com I have not been following this thread too closely but if I get the jist of the messages being thrown around is to check the archives before you post etc. However the way I see it is pretty simple. 1. Be courteous to all listers who post a message irregardless of the question. Remember you too were once a "newbie" 2. the only stupid question is the one that was not asked. 3. maybe the question posted just needed some validity from real time people instead of an automated archived response. 4. If you dont like the question being asked don't answer and hit your delete key. 5. Remember your response is going out for all the world to see and you are responding to a "real" person. 6. finally as Matt has posted. THINK BEFORE YOU POST. Happy holidays to all do not archive Glenn Williams p.s. to any who care my unit has been alerted and I may be going to Iraq for 15 months. I will let you know when I know if I am to be deployed. ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 11:35:40 AM PST US From: Allen Mecum Subject: Re: RV-List: Food Fight Watson Reply --> RV-List message posted by: Allen Mecum Glenn, If you do go keep yourself safe and tell all that you meet that we are all still thinking and praying for them. Thanks for keeping America free!!!!!!!!!! Allen DO NOT ARCHIVE glenn.williams@businessacft.bombardier.com wrote: --> RV-List message posted by: glenn.williams@businessacft.bombardier.com I have not been following this thread too closely but if I get the jist of the messages being thrown around is to check the archives before you post etc. However the way I see it is pretty simple. 1. Be courteous to all listers who post a message irregardless of the question. Remember you too were once a "newbie" 2. the only stupid question is the one that was not asked. 3. maybe the question posted just needed some validity from real time people instead of an automated archived response. 4. If you dont like the question being asked don't answer and hit your delete key. 5. Remember your response is going out for all the world to see and you are responding to a "real" person. 6. finally as Matt has posted. THINK BEFORE YOU POST. Happy holidays to all do not archive Glenn Williams p.s. to any who care my unit has been alerted and I may be going to Iraq for 15 months. I will let you know when I know if I am to be deployed. ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 11:39:26 AM PST US From: linn walters Subject: Re: RV-List: 4130 parts showing rust through primer --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters Steven Eberhart wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Steven Eberhart > >THe plane is an RV-8 that was delivered before Van's switched to powder >coating the 4130 steel parts. We have had to clean up rust that was >starting to show through the elevator and rudder brackets. It was like >the primer was porous and didn't seal against moisture. The paint used >was RM DP-40. THere seems to be a distinct difference between the RM DP >primer and the PPG DP primer. I cleaned up the rust with a wire wheel >on the Dremel and primed with NAPA rattle can self etching primer and >then everything was primed with the same PPG DP-40LF that the entire >plane was primed with. Color coats were PPG Concept. > >Steve Eberhart >Finishing up the paint job on RV-8 N49KS and building RV-7A N14SE > Well, I think I got it right. Preparation. Here's what I do, and it seems to work in the FL humidity. 1. Buy some Ospho from your local hardware store. 2. Let the steel get a little surface rust. Ospho works best when there isn't shiny steel. No, I don't know why. 3. Brush on the Ospho. If you HAVE to spray it, do so in well ventilated area and wear a RESPIRATOR. Not a paper mask. 4. Let it dry over a day or so. It will look real ugly with rough black crap all over it. Lightly sand off the ugly black crap. 5. Repeat step 3. 6. If you get more ugly black crap, do step 4. If not prime with paint of your choice. Ospho has acid in it (phosphoric, I think .... read the label. Well, read it anyway. It also has a dissoved plastic in it that will coat and seal the steel. the plastic is not durable so you must prime. Now, for what Steve's problem was. He's right. Primer is porous. It serves as a base to help make paint stick better. Paint doesn't stick to bare metal very well, and primer doesn't keep the moisture out. Together, however, they're a real good team. Steve didn't get the paint on soon enough. Been there, done that, and stripped it all off to start over. If you just try and kill the rust and paint over it though, it will come back later on. No, I'm not a paint expert, and don't play one on TV, but I've painted enough to know what has worked for me in the past. Ospho will also work on aluminum. I have test pieces 20 years old with good paint still on it. I also caution against mixing types of primer and paint. If you're going to use urethane paint, use urethane primer. Same with acrylic and the other flavors. Hope this helps! Linn Walters ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 11:47:29 AM PST US From: linn walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Food Fight Watson Reply --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters glenn.williams@businessacft.bombardier.com wrote: >Happy holidays to all > >do not archive > >Glenn Williams > >p.s. to any who care my unit has been alerted and I may be going to Iraq >for 15 months. I will let you know when I know if I am to be deployed. > I'll think good thoughts and hope to keep you safe. If you go, please take the time to drop us a note to let us know how you're doing. I'm safe since they won't take an old fart!!! What is it you do for our Uncle? Linn (the off-topic pest) Walters ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 11:58:21 AM PST US From: Kevin Behrent Subject: RV-List: New anti-corrosion policy from Van's? --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Behrent Just got started on my wing kit and found that I will have to buy a complete set of wing skins before I get started due to corrosion. I've had both my emp & wing kit for a couple of years and haven't really worked on the kits for a variety of reasons. Recently, I have gotten the time and motivation to finish it. With emp done, I started on the wings and had them ready for debur/dimple/priming when I started to peel the plastic back to reveal what wasn't so apparent through the plastic. A corrosion nightmare! Yeah, I had the kit for a couple of years, but it was stored in a dry space and the emp kit sat just as long with no corrosion at all (plastic still on!). After soliciting opinions/suggestions from several builders in my chapter (EAA 326 - great chapter!!), I had the local FAA guy (also a chapter member) come by and render the final fatal verdict. After a close inspection, it appears that the plastic coating may have been applied when the wing skins were damp since the corrosion is not only on the edge, but everywhere. I called Van's today to beg for mercy and it was decided that I would bring back the skins for their review and hopeful exchange (does not appear likely). They did make a interesting comment that I suspect that none of you have ever heard from them and the reason I am risking getting flamed from our resident flamer(s). That is, why didn't I remove the plastic "immediately" after receiving/inventoring the kit? Well, that was news to me. Certainly I knew not to store in a wet/damp environment, but it hadn't occurred to me that a dry environment was just as bad. So builders beware, I guess the new Van's policy when receiving your kit is to inventory and IMMEDIATELY remove ALL plastic coatings from surfaces. While your admiring the pretty blue plastic after you've carefully/skillfully/patiently removed the plastic where you'll be riveting; leaving the remainder thinking you are protecting the surface from scratches, it's corroding away leaving only the scratches from the area that you DID peel the plastics! Do not archive. -- Kevin Behrent rv-9a - wings ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 12:00:36 PM PST US From: "Richard V. Reynolds" Subject: RV-List: Pressure (in H2O) versus Airspeed --> RV-List message posted by: "Richard V. Reynolds" I am trying to calibrate my airspeed meter with a water manometer. I know the relationship is approximately P=K*V N, where P = in-H2O, K = Constant, V = knots, N=exponent, 2. What is the "exact" formula for airpeed versus pressure (in-H2O) which includes air temperature? Richard Reynolds, Norfolk, VA, RV-6A ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 12:17:18 PM PST US From: "rv6tc" Subject: Re: RV-List: The natural progresion of lists - was Food Fight, etc. --> RV-List message posted by: "rv6tc" Steve, Well said. Now. Post those pictures..... I'm very interested in that. Keith Hughes RV-6 Finish Hoping I have the right primer! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Eberhart" > . When the RV lists settle down a > little I will discuss some of the problems I have found with some of the > "primer war" solutions that are in the archives. Will probably post > some .jpg's of the 4130 parts that are showing rust through one of the > most frequently mentioned primers. > ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 12:52:58 PM PST US From: rob ray Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Glenn's post/Food fight, etc (certainly non RV) --> RV-List message posted by: rob ray Glenn, Just got back last summer from OIF, God speed buddy. Check Six, Twelve and your belly once in awhile. It's the wild west...trust me. RR John Helms wrote: --> RV-List message posted by: "John Helms" Glenn, Seriously, from a former Army officer who was in Iraq 10 years ago, if you go east, keep your head down, and go get him so that place will settle down. And thanks for serving all of us. And to poke fun at the previous thread a little, and because it's a slight pet peeve of mine... Straight from the dictionary... proper term is regardless. irregardless [ rri gard less ] adverb ( nonstandard ) See regardless [Early 20th century. Origin uncertain: probably a blend of irrespective and regardless.] Word Usage Nonstandard usage: A moment's thought will reveal that since the prefix ir- means "not" (as it does in irrespective), and the suffix -less means "without,"irregardless is an illogical double negative. As such it is to be avoided, in favor of irrespective or regardless. I know where the origin is... the military. Same people who use "orientate" in place of "orient" when talking about figuring out their relative position with respect to a map. Military officers trying to make memos, papers, orders, and such sound more official. John "JT" Helms been to Iraq, as a helicopter pilot, wish I was there to help. for gosh sakes don't clutter the archive with this do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: RV-List: Food Fight Watson Reply --> RV-List message posted by: glenn.williams@businessacft.bombardier.com I have not been following this thread too closely but if I get the jist of the messages being thrown around is to check the archives before you post etc. However the way I see it is pretty simple. 1. Be courteous to all listers who post a message irregardless of the question. Remember you too were once a "newbie" 2. the only stupid question is the one that was not asked. 3. maybe the question posted just needed some validity from real time people instead of an automated archived response. 4. If you dont like the question being asked don't answer and hit your delete key. 5. Remember your response is going out for all the world to see and you are responding to a "real" person. 6. finally as Matt has posted. THINK BEFORE YOU POST. Happy holidays to all do not archive Glenn Williams p.s. to any who care my unit has been alerted and I may be going to Iraq for 15 months. I will let you know when I know if I am to be deployed. --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 12:54:58 PM PST US From: "C. Rabaut" Subject: Re: RV-List: Food Fight Watson Reply --> RV-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" Glenn, If I'm the first to volunteer... I'd be happy to take care of your plane while you're away. I'll even pay for fuel, etc... Chuck do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: > Happy holidays to all > > do not archive > > Glenn Williams > > p.s. to any who care my unit has been alerted and I may be going to Iraq > for 15 months. I will let you know when I know if I am to be deployed. ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 12:56:43 PM PST US From: Jim Sears Subject: Re: RV-List: Food Fight Watson Reply --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allen Mecum" Subject: Re: RV-List: Food Fight Watson Reply > --> RV-List message posted by: Allen Mecum > > Glenn, > If you do go keep yourself safe and tell all that you meet that we are all still thinking and praying for them. Thanks for keeping America free!!!!!!!!!! > > Allen > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > glenn.williams@businessacft.bombardier.com wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: glenn.williams@businessacft.bombardier.com > > > I have not been following this thread too closely but if I get the jist of > the messages being thrown around is to check the archives before you post > etc. However the way I see it is pretty simple. > > 1. Be courteous to all listers who post a message irregardless of the > question. Remember you too were once a "newbie" > 2. the only stupid question is the one that was not asked. > 3. maybe the question posted just needed some validity from real time > people instead of an automated archived response. > 4. If you dont like the question being asked don't answer and hit your > delete key. > 5. Remember your response is going out for all the world to see and you are > responding to a "real" person. > 6. finally as Matt has posted. THINK BEFORE YOU POST. > > Happy holidays to all > > do not archive > > Glenn Williams > > p.s. to any who care my unit has been alerted and I may be going to Iraq > for 15 months. I will let you know when I know if I am to be deployed. > > ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 01:08:58 PM PST US From: Jim Sears Subject: Re: RV-List: New anti-corrosion policy from Van's? --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears Kevin's remarks below are news to me. If this is true, I feel it's appropriate to archive this piece of information for future reference. I'll sure peel plastic in the future! In fact, I'm going to forward this to my friend who just left us for the Yahoo group. :-) Jim Sears in KY > Just got started on my wing kit and found that I will have to buy a > complete set of wing skins before I get started due to corrosion. > > I've had both my emp & wing kit for a couple of years and haven't really > worked on the kits for a variety of reasons. Recently, I have gotten the > time and motivation to finish it. With emp done, I started on the wings > and had them ready for debur/dimple/priming when I started to peel the > plastic back to reveal what wasn't so apparent through the plastic. A > corrosion nightmare! > > Yeah, I had the kit for a couple of years, but it was stored in a dry > space and the emp kit sat just as long with no corrosion at all (plastic > still on!). After soliciting opinions/suggestions from several builders > in my chapter (EAA 326 - great chapter!!), I had the local FAA guy (also > a chapter member) come by and render the final fatal verdict. After a > close inspection, it appears that the plastic coating may have been > applied when the wing skins were damp since the corrosion is not only on > the edge, but everywhere. > > I called Van's today to beg for mercy and it was decided that I would > bring back the skins for their review and hopeful exchange (does not > appear likely). They did make a interesting comment that I suspect that > none of you have ever heard from them and the reason I am risking > getting flamed from our resident flamer(s). That is, why didn't I remove > the plastic "immediately" after receiving/inventoring the kit? Well, > that was news to me. Certainly I knew not to store in a wet/damp > environment, but it hadn't occurred to me that a dry environment was > just as bad. > > So builders beware, I guess the new Van's policy when receiving your > kit is to inventory and IMMEDIATELY remove ALL plastic coatings from > surfaces. While your admiring the pretty blue plastic after you've > carefully/skillfully/patiently removed the plastic where you'll be > riveting; leaving the remainder thinking you are protecting the surface > from scratches, it's corroding away leaving only the scratches from the > area that you DID peel the plastics! > ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 01:12:19 PM PST US From: Scott Bilinski Subject: Re: RV-List: Pressure (in H2O) versus Airspeed --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski How do you tweak the ASI once you find it is off? At 03:02 PM 11/18/03 -0500, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Richard V. Reynolds" > >I am trying to calibrate my airspeed meter with a water manometer. > >I know the relationship is approximately P=K*V >N, > >where P = in-H2O, K = Constant, V = knots, N=exponent, 2. > >What is the "exact" formula for airpeed versus pressure (in-H2O) which >includes air temperature? > >Richard Reynolds, Norfolk, VA, RV-6A > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 01:22:42 PM PST US From: "rv6tc" Subject: Re: RV-List:Safe travels, Glenn --> RV-List message posted by: "rv6tc" Glenn, A billboard outside Vance AFB... Train Hard Serve Well Return Soon Godspeed, Keith Hughes Capt emeritus, USAF do not archive ----- Original Message ----- > > Glenn Williams > > p.s. to any who care my unit has been alerted and I may be going to Iraq > for 15 months. I will let you know when I know if I am to be deployed. > > ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 01:33:10 PM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: Re: RV-List: Pressure (in H2O) versus Airspeed --> RV-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" Check the archives...one of the manufacturers of one of those all-in one flight display systems has instructions in it for making your own...it has the numbers in it. Don't remember which one- but I did print it off at home...I'll try to remember and scan it in.... Ralph Capen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard V. Reynolds" Subject: RV-List: Pressure (in H2O) versus Airspeed > --> RV-List message posted by: "Richard V. Reynolds" > > I am trying to calibrate my airspeed meter with a water manometer. > > I know the relationship is approximately P=K*V > N, > > where P = in-H2O, K = Constant, V = knots, N=exponent, 2. > > What is the "exact" formula for airpeed versus pressure (in-H2O) which > includes air temperature? > > Richard Reynolds, Norfolk, VA, RV-6A > > ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 02:05:17 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: New anti-corrosion policy from Van's? From: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" --> RV-List message posted by: "Condrey, Bob (US SSA)" Here's another data point for you - the guidance in the RV-10 manual is to not leave the plastic on more than a few weeks or the adhesive will make the plastic much more difficult to remove (nothing about corrosion). I assume that this is the current policy since the ink is hardly dry on the pages. Now let me get my flame-proof underwear out... If there isn't any need to prime alclad surfaces why didn't the alclad protect the skins? I would be very interested in hearing an opinion from the "don't prime the skins" folks. BTW, that's the path that I've started going down. Bob RV-10 #105: VS done, rudder in work -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Behrent [mailto:kbehrent@cascadiasoftware.com] Subject: RV-List: New anti-corrosion policy from Van's? --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Behrent --> Just got started on my wing kit and found that I will have to buy a complete set of wing skins before I get started due to corrosion. I've had both my emp & wing kit for a couple of years and haven't really worked on the kits for a variety of reasons. Recently, I have gotten the time and motivation to finish it. With emp done, I started on the wings and had them ready for debur/dimple/priming when I started to peel the plastic back to reveal what wasn't so apparent through the plastic. A corrosion nightmare! Yeah, I had the kit for a couple of years, but it was stored in a dry space and the emp kit sat just as long with no corrosion at all (plastic still on!). After soliciting opinions/suggestions from several builders in my chapter (EAA 326 - great chapter!!), I had the local FAA guy (also a chapter member) come by and render the final fatal verdict. After a close inspection, it appears that the plastic coating may have been applied when the wing skins were damp since the corrosion is not only on the edge, but everywhere. I called Van's today to beg for mercy and it was decided that I would bring back the skins for their review and hopeful exchange (does not appear likely). They did make a interesting comment that I suspect that none of you have ever heard from them and the reason I am risking getting flamed from our resident flamer(s). That is, why didn't I remove the plastic "immediately" after receiving/inventoring the kit? Well, that was news to me. Certainly I knew not to store in a wet/damp environment, but it hadn't occurred to me that a dry environment was just as bad. So builders beware, I guess the new Van's policy when receiving your kit is to inventory and IMMEDIATELY remove ALL plastic coatings from surfaces. While your admiring the pretty blue plastic after you've carefully/skillfully/patiently removed the plastic where you'll be riveting; leaving the remainder thinking you are protecting the surface from scratches, it's corroding away leaving only the scratches from the area that you DID peel the plastics! Do not archive. -- Kevin Behrent rv-9a - wings = == direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. == == == ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 02:16:08 PM PST US From: "MSices" Subject: RE: RV-List: PIREP first flight --> RV-List message posted by: "MSices" Hi Mike: Good question. I guess, for me, doing the first-flight was not an important part of the process. But, I can see where it would be for some people. I built everything on this plane - I wired the panel, cut the panel, painted it - you name it, other than the QB part, I subbed nothing out. I take pride in the fact that I did it myself (with help from friends and family, of course). However, I -did- sub-out the test pilot part because I felt that that would be the safest approach for -me-. As soon as Bill landed and said I had a good airplane, I was immediately infused with a different thought-process about the whole thing. This might be psychological, but I could not ignore it, because if I had done it myself, I might have been too nervous to handle an emergency. Bill helped me understand it this way; I needed some help in order to convince -myself- that I could do it. If you've got that confidence already, then fly it yourself the first time by all means. Then you can add that to the long list of things about the airplane that you alone are responsible for. As I get older, I become more cerebral about risk assessment (this is why they recruit 18 year olds to fight wars). But I am glad I handled this the way I did. Thanks again everyone, Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) Subject: RE: RV-List: PIREP first flight --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" Congrats Mike. So now that the first flight is done, and you are feeling every emotion known to man, can you reflect back a bit on your decision to not take the first departure. I know it is early, but it is also all fresh in your mind. I am sure other builders would like to know you how you now feel, having given the first reins up. Mike Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of MSices Subject: RV-List: PIREP first flight --> RV-List message posted by: "MSices" I want to thank all of you who replied with helping ideas concerning my first flight jitters. In the end I found a great local pilot, Bill Bruns, to do my first flight. First flight took place Friday, November 14 at around 11am. Bill flew above the airport at about 3000 feet. After landing, Bill rolled back the canopy and said, "you've got a good airplane here." That afternoon, on her -real- first flight, I took her up and can confirm that statement. Everything tracked straight and true. The plane is a lot easier to land than I had envisioned. Take-off is a blast - after getting the tail up, I added full power, and it throws you back in your seat! Those of you who indicated that the -8's want to wheel land were correct - after touching down with the mains, I let the stick go neutral thinking that the tail would drop on its own, but it didn't - it was just happy to be on the mains for a while. Finally, I nudged the stick back to finish out a nice landing. The stall is very benign - no wing drop at all. What a thrill! Only sqwauks are slightly low vacuum pressure (regulator adjustment), and the prop is hunting a little at high RPM (I think I have this one figured out). According to my Vision Microsystem, the highest oil temps were 195 (but mostly I saw it at 170) and CHT's 395 (mostly at 260-350), so I don't seem to have the overheating yet that some report with the angle valve engine (it was only 40 deg. outside though). I was too busy calming down on this short flight to look at speeds or climb rates or anything like that, but I will say that I had to bring the throttle way back while I was on crosswind in the pattern in order to level off and slow down by the time I got abeam the numbers :>. Thanks again for all of your support over the years - looking forward to meeting more of you at fly-ins. And, oh yeah, keep squashing them rivets. Wanted to type that for a long time. DO NOT ARCHIVE Mike Sices RV8 N339JA Flying! --- = == == == == --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. --- ________________________________ Message 57 ____________________________________ Time: 02:23:12 PM PST US From: "Elsa & Henry" Subject: Re: RV-List: New anti-corrosion policy from Van's? --> RV-List message posted by: "Elsa & Henry" Kevin, That's unbelievable!! What the H**l is Alcad coating supposed to DO!? It sounds to me you got a bad batch of aluminum! I bought the entire kit at one time and peeled off the plastic in strips to allow riveting and peeled off the rest prior to priming and painting after 5 years and this was the white stuff that was hard to get off. The aluminum was pristine under the plastic!---Don't understand it! Cheers!!----Henry Hore ________________________________ Message 58 ____________________________________ Time: 02:26:12 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: Pressure (in H2O) versus Airspeed --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton >--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski > >How do you tweak the ASI once you find it is off? > >At 03:02 PM 11/18/03 -0500, you wrote: >>--> RV-List message posted by: "Richard V. Reynolds" >> >>I am trying to calibrate my airspeed meter with a water manometer. >> >>I know the relationship is approximately P=K*V >>N, >> >>where P = in-H2O, K = Constant, V = knots, N=exponent, 2. >> >>What is the "exact" formula for airpeed versus pressure (in-H2O) which > >includes air temperature? >> For the original poster, you can find the info you need at: http://members.rogers.com/khorton/rvlinks/asi.zip This unzips to become an Excel spreadsheet that will convert back and forth between ASI readings and water manometer readings. Contact me for assistance if you have any problems with it. For Scott: If the ASI has a big error, you send it back to the vendor, or throw it away. I've heard one report of an ASI that was over 10 mph in error. If the ASI has a small, but acceptable error, you live with it. Knowledge of the ASI error is a critical part of the process used to determine the position error in the static system, assuming you use one of the techniques that compares IAS against GPS based TAS. If you are going to fly IFR, it is probably smart to figure out how much static system error you have, as that translates into an error in the indicated altitude. It is also worthwhile making sure you don't have too big an error even if you only fly VFR, as TCAS equipped aircraft use the altitude from your transponder to determine whether to climb or dive as they approach you. If you've got an error in your static system that will affect the transponder too. And no, the transponder checks done by the avionics shop don't tell you anything about position error, as position error is due to the difference between the true ambient pressure and the pressure at the static port. That error will be zero in the hangar with the doors closed. There is lots more info on this subject on my web site: http://members.rogers.com/khorton/rvlinks/ssec.html http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/phplinks/index.php?&PID=47 -- Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/ ________________________________ Message 59 ____________________________________ Time: 02:26:29 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: Pressure (in H2O) versus Airspeed From: Boyd Braem --> RV-List message posted by: Boyd Braem If I remember right (I'm saying that more and more these days), Kevin Horton has a conversion chart on his web site. Boyd. do not archive On Tuesday, November 18, 2003, at 04:36 PM, Ralph E. Capen wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" > > Check the archives...one of the manufacturers of one of those all-in > one > flight display systems has instructions in it for making your own...it > has > the numbers in it. > > Don't remember which one- but I did print it off at home...I'll try to > remember and scan it in.... > > Ralph Capen > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Richard V. Reynolds" > To: "RV List Email" > Subject: RV-List: Pressure (in H2O) versus Airspeed > > >> --> RV-List message posted by: "Richard V. Reynolds" >> >> >> I am trying to calibrate my airspeed meter with a water manometer. >> >> I know the relationship is approximately P=K*V >> N, >> >> where P = in-H2O, K = Constant, V = knots, N=exponent, 2. >> >> What is the "exact" formula for airpeed versus pressure (in-H2O) which >> includes air temperature? >> >> Richard Reynolds, Norfolk, VA, RV-6A >> >> > > > _- > ======================================================================= > _-> _- > ======================================================================= > _- > ======================================================================= > _- > ======================================================================= > _- > ======================================================================= > > > > ________________________________ Message 60 ____________________________________ Time: 02:39:05 PM PST US From: sshah@shreyans.info Subject: RV-List: RE: New anti-corrosion policy from Van's? --> RV-List message posted by: sshah@shreyans.info My goodness! This message sent shiver down my spine. I thought the Van's says that the alclad is good enough to deter corrosion and it's not necessary to primer the alclad parts. Then, how can the skins get corroded! even if there was dampness on the skin. I primer all internal parts but the outer surfaces are all exposed and will be till I get to the final paint. I've stored the completed empennage parts in basement which is kind of dry environment but still exposed to all the condensation & moisture in the air. I'll shoot myself if when I get the fuselage done few years down the road and find that the empennage is all corroded. Does everybody take some special measures to reduce the humidity in the storage area? Do you coat the skins with something before storage to avoid corrosion? Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Shreyans > Subject: New anti-corrosion policy from Van's? > From: Kevin Behrent (kbehrent@cascadiasoftware.com) > Date: Tue Nov 18 - 11:58 AM > > --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Behrent > > Just got started on my wing kit and found that I will have to buy a > complete set of wing skins before I get started due to corrosion. > > I've had both my emp & wing kit for a couple of years and haven't really > worked on the kits for a variety of reasons. Recently, I have gotten the > time and motivation to finish it. With emp done, I started on the wings > and had them ready for debur/dimple/priming when I started to peel the > plastic back to reveal what wasn't so apparent through the plastic. A > corrosion nightmare! > > Yeah, I had the kit for a couple of years, but it was stored in a dry > space and the emp kit sat just as long with no corrosion at all (plastic > still on!). After soliciting opinions/suggestions from several builders > in my chapter (EAA 326 - great chapter!!), I had the local FAA guy (also > a chapter member) come by and render the final fatal verdict. After a > close inspection, it appears that the plastic coating may have been > applied when the wing skins were damp since the corrosion is not only on > the edge, but everywhere. > > I called Van's today to beg for mercy and it was decided that I would > bring back the skins for their review and hopeful exchange (does not > appear likely). They did make a interesting comment that I suspect that > none of you have ever heard from them and the reason I am risking > getting flamed from our resident flamer(s). That is, why didn't I remove > the plastic "immediately" after receiving/inventoring the kit? Well, > that was news to me. Certainly I knew not to store in a wet/damp > environment, but it hadn't occurred to me that a dry environment was > just as bad. > > So builders beware, I guess the new Van's policy when receiving your > kit is to inventory and IMMEDIATELY remove ALL plastic coatings from > surfaces. While your admiring the pretty blue plastic after you've > carefully/skillfully/patiently removed the plastic where you'll be > riveting; leaving the remainder thinking you are protecting the surface > from scratches, it's corroding away leaving only the scratches from the > area that you DID peel the plastics! > > Do not archive. > > -- > Kevin Behrent > rv-9a - wings > > > ________________________________ Message 61 ____________________________________ Time: 03:07:07 PM PST US From: "David Carter" Subject: Re: RV-List: now "Food Fight" - FIRST TIMER RESPONSE --> RV-List message posted by: "David Carter" Welcome back, Linn. I've been on the list 6 years and have never been mistreated. Must be your personality. (NO! NO! I'm just kidding!!!!! Honest, no trick!) I'm just trying to be a bit light and want to echo the good words others have given - great people are on this list and generally give lots of "low emotional cost" help. Just ignore the ones who try to, or unintentionally, get under your skin. I had to learn that "I chose whether I'll be offended by another person." - depends on my self image, which is pretty good. Now, if he lied about me. . . . it gets tough on me and I have to do extra "deep breathing and relax and let it pass". . . . Since you are new, where would you like to start? Primer wars? Pneumatic squeezer vs those long handled things? I have used the archives a few times, but, usually, when I'm in a bind to make progress and something is bothering me or I can't figure something out, I call Van's - if they say, "I've never heard that before", then I get on the list and chat with all those who have heard it before. (This is not to start a war on Van's Tech Support guys - they give great help. Most of the problems have been resolved in the RV-7 kit and subsequent - better manual, better kit, everything - they have been putting their time where it gives us and them the most bang - that is what I and other whiners like me have to remember and truly respect. David Carter RV-6 QB - wiring tail lites; learning and collecting stuff for engine (QB - for me, it is quick in name only - I'm slow - I don't put as much time into the project as some) Just pulled air conditioner evaporator cores today from an '84 Olds 88 & an '83 Buick Le Sabre - cleaned & stored them to use later as radiators for my Mazda rotary engine) ----- Original Message ----- From: "linn walters" Subject: Re: RV-List: now "Food Fight" - FIRST TIMER RESPONSE > --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters > > I guess I've been camped on this computer all morning. Afraid I'll miss > something!!! do not archive ________________________________ Message 62 ____________________________________ Time: 03:15:02 PM PST US From: Paul Eastham Subject: RV-List: spar tabs --> RV-List message posted by: Paul Eastham Anyone have any advice for how to keep the little tabs on the ribs that fit inside the spar in alignment and sitting down flat? These are the tabs that will be riveted through the skin. (This is on a RV-9 HS but I think I've seen these tabs elsewhere in the various kits) I can usually bring them into alignment by pushing and prodding them, and can definitely get a cleco in, but I can't maintain this pressure and get a bucking bar in there at the same time. Bend them permanently, you say? Well, some are already riveted to the spar, the others...it's as if they are bent for a spar that was a little wider than mine. Flattening out the existing bend then rebending it seems pretty stressful on the metal to me. Still struggling with aligning this !#$!#@ HS skin. It is just way too tight. Problems on the main ribs too...my VS and rudder are going together fine so I don't think it's total incompetence on my part :) Paul http://hmb.dyndns.org/~eastham/rv PS regarding smoothness of skin rivets: a few are a little rougher on one side than the other, clearly they are not sitting perfectly flat. Acceptable to leave the rivet in place? Good task for a rivet shaver? (I know they are tricky to use, lots of mixed opinions in the archives) ________________________________ Message 63 ____________________________________ Time: 03:19:02 PM PST US From: N13eer@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Traveling to Alabama --> RV-List message posted by: N13eer@aol.com I'm planning a trip to Enterprise Alabama to visit my brother-in-law over Thanksgiving. I plan on heading down on Saturday and staying about a week depending on weather. Anyone got any advice on leaving a my -8 at the enterprise airport, or an empty hanger there? I have not had a chance to call the FBO but plan to do that tomorrow. Anyone have any must see sight while I'm in LA (lower Alabama) Thanks Alan Kritzman RV-8 ________________________________ Message 64 ____________________________________ Time: 03:19:50 PM PST US From: "Jim Jewell" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re-Food Fights, questions, and do not archive --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" Hello, To everyone like me on this list that can not always resist the temptation to jump directly out of a lack of information, directly into a forgone conclusion without using the dreaded "do not archive". What ever happened to the once common adage that suggested; People who live in glass houses should not throw stones?: With just a bit of experience with the use of a computer keyboard and some spare time on the web, anyone!, from anywhere in the world!, can enter the RV-List archives house of mirrors and see clearly into even the darkest of it's corners. Once again I will point out that by entering your own name into the rv-list archives search box you to can peruse all that you have said over the years. That is of course with the exclusion of the times that you did, wisely or not, elect to use the by now infamous Do Not Archive while posting. Regardless of your position re-the current flap, or some other emotion grabbing future issue: If you are overcome with the need to respond or otherwise jump into this, that or another one of these topics or any future inevitable out of context "food fights"; First try entering your own name in the archive search box. If you are judgmentally satisfied with your own past behavior on the list and are not in the least a bit humbled by what you find there? You will most likely feel inclined to carry on and provide the list with yet another bit of well thought out wisdom without the need for the use of the famous Do Not Archive. About stupid questions; For most of us the stupid questions we asked in the past have put us into the position of being able to ask much more highly evolved stupid questions. Questions that might impress the hell out of all except those whom have traveled the road before us. There is hope. The list has a way of surviving these bad riveting days. If you have read this far and are not yet amused at the tongue in cheek intent herein. There is but one thing I might suggest; Go back to the shop and work on your airplane, {(;-)! Jim in Kelowna Oh!. and,... DO NOT ARCHIVE (;-) ________________________________ Message 65 ____________________________________ Time: 03:24:52 PM PST US From: Paul Eastham Subject: Re: RV-List: New anti-corrosion policy from Van's? --> RV-List message posted by: Paul Eastham That sounds pretty awful. At least you hadn't done much to the skins yet. My manual does say to remove vinyl from the skins within weeks of receipt, but the only reason given is that the adhesive gets hard to remove after a while. There is an old thread in the archives that suggests this is obsolete in recent kits; older kits may have used a different sort of coating which was more prone to this problem. Good luck, Paul RV-9A emp (with wing kit gathering dust) On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 12:02:07PM -0800, Kevin Behrent wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Behrent > > Just got started on my wing kit and found that I will have to buy a > complete set of wing skins before I get started due to corrosion. > > I've had both my emp & wing kit for a couple of years and haven't really > worked on the kits for a variety of reasons. Recently, I have gotten the > time and motivation to finish it. With emp done, I started on the wings > and had them ready for debur/dimple/priming when I started to peel the > plastic back to reveal what wasn't so apparent through the plastic. A > corrosion nightmare! > > Yeah, I had the kit for a couple of years, but it was stored in a dry > space and the emp kit sat just as long with no corrosion at all (plastic > still on!). After soliciting opinions/suggestions from several builders > in my chapter (EAA 326 - great chapter!!), I had the local FAA guy (also > a chapter member) come by and render the final fatal verdict. After a > close inspection, it appears that the plastic coating may have been > applied when the wing skins were damp since the corrosion is not only on > the edge, but everywhere. > > I called Van's today to beg for mercy and it was decided that I would > bring back the skins for their review and hopeful exchange (does not > appear likely). They did make a interesting comment that I suspect that > none of you have ever heard from them and the reason I am risking > getting flamed from our resident flamer(s). That is, why didn't I remove > the plastic "immediately" after receiving/inventoring the kit? Well, > that was news to me. Certainly I knew not to store in a wet/damp > environment, but it hadn't occurred to me that a dry environment was > just as bad. > > So builders beware, I guess the new Van's policy when receiving your > kit is to inventory and IMMEDIATELY remove ALL plastic coatings from > surfaces. While your admiring the pretty blue plastic after you've > carefully/skillfully/patiently removed the plastic where you'll be > riveting; leaving the remainder thinking you are protecting the surface > from scratches, it's corroding away leaving only the scratches from the > area that you DID peel the plastics! > > Do not archive. > > -- > Kevin Behrent > rv-9a - wings > > > > > ________________________________ Message 66 ____________________________________ Time: 03:35:07 PM PST US From: "Greg Young" Subject: RE: RV-List: First flight decisions --> RV-List message posted by: "Greg Young" Skill and confidence are certainly major factors in how the first flight gets conducted and by whom. I don't mean to trivialize it but if all goes well, as it normally does, it boils down to a bragging rights issue. What doesn't get enough discussion is consideration of the ugly consequences of bad and worst case scenarios, i.e. if the airplane gets bent/destroyed and/or the pilot hurt/killed. The normal discussion is limited to "be prepared to sacrifice the airplane" and "land straight ahead..." I was and did and it worked out partly because of some other, unconscious, but nonetheless right for me, decisions. I was shocked afterward by how many people told me how devastated they would be to lose their aircraft and those that would be unable to rebuild because of finances or other reasons. It made me realize that others might follow branches of the decision tree that I never touched. I always planned to make the first flight and I prepared for it, so I never considered the what-ifs of someone else flying my airplane. But maybe we all should. Will you blame or second guess yourself if you break the airplane? Can you handle someone else breaking your airplane? Would it be good to have a scapegoat if something goes wrong;-)? If you pay someone to test fly it and they get killed, can you rationalize it as a risk of his job? Can you live with it if it's a good friend doing it as a favor? Is your family better off if it's not you hurt or killed? I had full first flight insurance and am otherwise covered but not everyone is. Can you afford to fix or rebuild the airplane? Can your family afford the medical bills if you are injured or your loss if killed? Can you afford to be off work during your recovery? What if you don't fully recover? Can you afford the legal fallout if someone else flys and is hurt or killed? Will your spouse let you rebuild if you get hurt vs. a test pilot? Will you care? There are many more questions and no right or wrong, better or worse answers. I pruned much of the decision tree without realizing it and we all make some of these choices in our normal flying. But first flight and the test period is a different level of risk warranting a fresh look. Do some soul searching on the emotional and financial consequences to you and your family if things don't go well. You may be surprised what you discover. Regards, Greg Young - Houston (DWH) RV-6 N6GY ...project Phoenix Navion N5221K - just an XXL RV-6A ________________________________ Message 67 ____________________________________ Time: 04:35:35 PM PST US From: "Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club" Subject: Re: RV-List: New anti-corrosion policy from Van's? --> RV-List message posted by: "Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club" Kevin Behrent wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Behrent > > Just got started on my wing kit and found that I will have to buy a > complete set of wing skins before I get started due to corrosion. > > I've had both my emp & wing kit for a couple of years and haven't really > worked on the kits for a variety of reasons. Recently, I have gotten the > time and motivation to finish it. With emp done, I started on the wings > and had them ready for debur/dimple/priming when I started to peel the > plastic back to reveal what wasn't so apparent through the plastic. A > corrosion nightmare! > > Yeah, I had the kit for a couple of years, but it was stored in a dry > space and the emp kit sat just as long with no corrosion at all (plastic > still on!). After soliciting opinions/suggestions from several builders > in my chapter (EAA 326 - great chapter!!), I had the local FAA guy (also > a chapter member) come by and render the final fatal verdict. After a > close inspection, it appears that the plastic coating may have been > applied when the wing skins were damp since the corrosion is not only on > the edge, but everywhere. > > I called Van's today to beg for mercy and it was decided that I would > bring back the skins for their review and hopeful exchange (does not > appear likely). They did make a interesting comment that I suspect that > none of you have ever heard from them and the reason I am risking > getting flamed from our resident flamer(s). That is, why didn't I remove > the plastic "immediately" after receiving/inventoring the kit? Well, > that was news to me. Certainly I knew not to store in a wet/damp > environment, but it hadn't occurred to me that a dry environment was > just as bad. > > So builders beware, I guess the new Van's policy when receiving your > kit is to inventory and IMMEDIATELY remove ALL plastic coatings from > surfaces. While your admiring the pretty blue plastic after you've > carefully/skillfully/patiently removed the plastic where you'll be > riveting; leaving the remainder thinking you are protecting the surface > from scratches, it's corroding away leaving only the scratches from the > area that you DID peel the plastics! > > Do not archive. > > -- > Kevin Behrent > rv-9a - wings When I started, I took over a project that was started about 10 years before I got it. He had some of the tail done. When we got into the wing box, many months later, we found all kinds of corrosion. In our case it was the old packing paper that seemed to be the culprit. I think in the paper manufacturing process, they use some acid. Many of my skins looked like cobwebs flattened to the skin. I called Van's not to complain but to inform them of the problem. The reply was "they are packed to ship, not to store". I sorted through them and most was surface damage that I was able to sand with an orbital sander using fine grit disk. A few skins were replaced. I got to thinking about the answer from Van's... They are right. Get those parts out and put them together. If you take over an old kit, open it up and look between the sheets of paper and at all the skins. There may be some corrosion. This was before the plastic coatings they put on it now. And if we stayed off these computers, those planes would fly in half the time. I gotta go out and work on the brake pedals..... Phil do not archive ________________________________ Message 68 ____________________________________ Time: 04:44:25 PM PST US From: "J. R. Dial" Subject: RE: RV-List: New anti-corrosion policy from Van's? --> RV-List message posted by: "J. R. Dial" I had several pieces that sat up to three years and the glue from the plastic really looked like corrosion but wipes off with solvent(lacquer thinner) so it's sure not corrosion. I would think the Alcad should protect it??? DO NOT ARCHIVE -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Elsa & Henry Subject: Re: RV-List: New anti-corrosion policy from Van's? --> RV-List message posted by: "Elsa & Henry" Kevin, That's unbelievable!! What the H**l is Alcad coating supposed to DO!? It sounds to me you got a bad batch of aluminum! I bought the entire kit at one time and peeled off the plastic in strips to allow riveting and peeled off the rest prior to priming and painting after 5 years and this was the white stuff that was hard to get off. The aluminum was pristine under the plastic!---Don't understand it! Cheers!!----Henry Hore = == == == == ________________________________ Message 69 ____________________________________ Time: 05:04:56 PM PST US From: linn walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Re-Food Fights, questions, and do not archive --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters Jim Jewell wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" > >Hello, > >To everyone like me on this list that can not always resist the temptation >to jump directly out of a lack of information, directly into a forgone >conclusion without using the dreaded "do not archive". > You mean me? ;-) >What ever happened to the once common adage that suggested; People who live >in glass houses should not throw stones?: > Well, after Hurricane Andrew, the state decreed that glass houses had to withstand 150 MPH winds, and with the large surface area ...... never said anything about flames, though. so, all glass houses have to be equipped with shutters that can withstand a 2X4 hurled point on, fired from a CO2 gun ..... like Momma nature has them! Oops, I just jumped too soon!!! :-D >With just a bit of experience with the use of a computer keyboard and some >spare time on the web, anyone!, from anywhere in the world!, can enter the >RV-List archives house of mirrors and see clearly into even the darkest of >it's corners. > Aah, I'm sceptical. I've been in the house of mirrors and all I saw was many copies of myself. Scary, really scary! :-P >Once again I will point out that by entering your own name into the rv-list >archives search box you to can peruse all that you have said over the years. >That is of course with the exclusion of the times that you did, wisely or >not, elect to use the by now infamous Do Not Archive while posting. > Well, there were a few posts that I didn't do that. So flog me. I love it. I thrive on pain. Which is why I'm going to assemble a bunch of little parts to make one big part .... an RV-10. >Regardless of your position re-the current flap, or some other emotion >grabbing future issue: > Hey, you're a quick learner .... no 'irregardless'??? > If you are overcome with the need to respond or otherwise jump into this, >that or another one of these topics or any future inevitable out of context >"food fights"; > >First try entering your own name in the archive search box. > Well, I'm new so thankfully there aren't as many as others!!! I didn't know about the DNA message. I plead ignorance or insanity. Ok, both. > If you are judgmentally satisfied with your own past behavior on the list >and are not in the least a bit humbled by what you find there? You will most >likely feel inclined to carry on and provide the list with yet another bit >of well thought out wisdom without the need for the use of the famous Do Not >Archive. > Hopefully. I really want to contribute something meaningful, but this 'food fight' thing has been fun. I hope everyone sees it as an attempt at humor. It was meant that way. >About stupid questions; > For most of us the stupid questions we asked in the past have put us into >the position of being able to ask much more highly evolved stupid questions. > Now I like this part!!! :-) >Questions that might impress the hell out of all except those whom have >traveled the road before us. > This is what makes lists so great! I love it!!! You get answers to your stupid questions (yeah, I know there aren't any .... just stupid answers!) and if you can remember the answers, you impress the newbies with your knowledge! We have self-perpetuating experts! I wanna be one of those!!! Is it OK if I read all the posts and then, when asked, post the answers as my own??? Nah, that won't work. My memory isn't that good. Poo. I had hopes! :-( >There is hope. > Oh, thank goodness! :-) >The list has a way of surviving these bad riveting days. > Love the metaphor. But maybe you're serious. Are there bad riveting days? Will I get infected??? Is there a cure? >If you have read this far and are not yet amused at the tongue in cheek >intent herein. > Wait! You mean you're not serious??? This is all a scam??? I'm confused. How do we know what's serious and what's not? It's not in the archives! ARRRGH!!! :-[ > There is but one thing I might suggest; > Ah, comes the knowledge! >Go back to the shop and work on your airplane, {(;-)! > But it's not here yet!!! I'm in limbo! Maybe I can go practice riveting on someone elses plane 'till mine gets here! >Jim in Kelowna Oh!. and,... DO NOT ARCHIVE (;-) > Thanks Jim, and thanks for the DNA. I'll plant it at a murder scene .... Linn (smokin' keyboard) Walters in ..... the witness protection program. ________________________________ Message 70 ____________________________________ Time: 05:07:20 PM PST US From: "Curt Hoffman" Subject: Re: RV-List: New anti-corrosion policy from Van's? --> RV-List message posted by: "Curt Hoffman" This thread worried my some so I went downstairs to pull off the plastic on my wings. I have had my wing kit for about three years now. Long enough that the plastic on the wings is the old clear stuff while the plastic on the tail is blue (I went backwards since I had already built a tail on a -6). After removing all the plastic I found some corrosion. Mostly was little pin spots here and there but one of the bottom skins I haven't riveted yet pending my electrical decisions had quite a bit. Looked like little tiny dots. I was able to polish them out with some scrubbing with a scotch brite pad. The insides of all the surfaces were all fine since I alodined and primered them. As to the old plastic getting hard to remove- it is a lot easier to remove the old clear plastic from the wings then the brand new blue plastic off the rudder and elevators. That blue stuff is thinner and sticks a lot more. I think because it is thinner it tears / punctures easier instead of just pulling off. I guess I had seen so many pictures of wings with only the plastic over the rivet lines removed I latched on to that plan. It does protect the skin from scratches but as noted can cause some corrosion. Rocks and hard places come to mind for us slow builders. Curt Hoffman RV-9A wings done for now- working on tail Quick build fuselage now in basement Piper Cherokee N5320W 1974 TR6 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Eastham" Subject: Re: RV-List: New anti-corrosion policy from Van's? > --> RV-List message posted by: Paul Eastham > > That sounds pretty awful. At least you hadn't done much to the skins yet. > > My manual does say to remove vinyl from the skins within weeks of > receipt, but the only reason given is that the adhesive gets hard to > remove after a while. There is an old thread in the archives that > suggests this is obsolete in recent kits; older kits may have used > a different sort of coating which was more prone to this problem. > > Good luck, > Paul > RV-9A emp (with wing kit gathering dust) > > On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 12:02:07PM -0800, Kevin Behrent wrote: > > --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Behrent > > > > Just got started on my wing kit and found that I will have to buy a > > complete set of wing skins before I get started due to corrosion. > > > > I've had both my emp & wing kit for a couple of years and haven't really > > worked on the kits for a variety of reasons. Recently, I have gotten the > > time and motivation to finish it. With emp done, I started on the wings > > and had them ready for debur/dimple/priming when I started to peel the > > plastic back to reveal what wasn't so apparent through the plastic. A > > corrosion nightmare! > > > > Yeah, I had the kit for a couple of years, but it was stored in a dry > > space and the emp kit sat just as long with no corrosion at all (plastic > > still on!). After soliciting opinions/suggestions from several builders > > in my chapter (EAA 326 - great chapter!!), I had the local FAA guy (also > > a chapter member) come by and render the final fatal verdict. After a > > close inspection, it appears that the plastic coating may have been > > applied when the wing skins were damp since the corrosion is not only on > > the edge, but everywhere. > > > > I called Van's today to beg for mercy and it was decided that I would > > bring back the skins for their review and hopeful exchange (does not > > appear likely). They did make a interesting comment that I suspect that > > none of you have ever heard from them and the reason I am risking > > getting flamed from our resident flamer(s). That is, why didn't I remove > > the plastic "immediately" after receiving/inventoring the kit? Well, > > that was news to me. Certainly I knew not to store in a wet/damp > > environment, but it hadn't occurred to me that a dry environment was > > just as bad. > > > > So builders beware, I guess the new Van's policy when receiving your > > kit is to inventory and IMMEDIATELY remove ALL plastic coatings from > > surfaces. While your admiring the pretty blue plastic after you've > > carefully/skillfully/patiently removed the plastic where you'll be > > riveting; leaving the remainder thinking you are protecting the surface > > from scratches, it's corroding away leaving only the scratches from the > > area that you DID peel the plastics! > > > > Do not archive. > > > > -- > > Kevin Behrent > > rv-9a - wings > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 71 ____________________________________ Time: 05:14:23 PM PST US From: "Vince Himsl" Subject: RV-List: RE: Safe travels, Glenn --> RV-List message posted by: "Vince Himsl" I care! And take care! Vince Himsl RV8-SB Moscow, ID ________________________________ Message 72 ____________________________________ Time: 05:28:09 PM PST US From: RV6AOKC@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: RE: Safe travels, Glenn --> RV-List message posted by: RV6AOKC@aol.com Be Safe Glenn and come back soon..... Best Wishes, Kurt Klewin, RV6A, OKC, OK Maj, USAFR, (Returned from Iraqi Freedom Deployment last May) ________________________________ Message 73 ____________________________________ Time: 05:46:43 PM PST US From: linn walters Subject: Re: RV-List: First flight decisions --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters Greg, I like your post. I also like the 'me' or 'him' dilemma. I flew my Pitts the first time. I have been it's sole pilot for 22 years. I, like you, always planned to make that first flight. I couldn't very well say "I'm not sure if it'll fly so you be the test pilot". What if, as you say, my best friend died in my airplane because I ........??? Scary thought. I never had that thought because I was going to be the guinea pig. Read on! Greg Young wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Greg Young" > >Skill and confidence are certainly major factors in how the first flight >gets conducted and by whom. I don't mean to trivialize it but if all goes >well, as it normally does, it boils down to a bragging rights issue. > I agree to a point. For me it was more personal accomplishment than anything else. And, I didn't know any other Pitts pilots! > What doesn't get enough discussion is consideration of the ugly consequences of >bad and worst case scenarios, i.e. if the airplane gets bent/destroyed >and/or the pilot hurt/killed. The normal discussion is limited to "be >prepared to sacrifice the airplane" and "land straight ahead..." I was and >did and it worked out partly because of some other, unconscious, but >nonetheless right for me, decisions. I was shocked afterward by how many >people told me how devastated they would be to lose their aircraft and those >that would be unable to rebuild because of finances or other reasons. It >made me realize that others might follow branches of the decision tree that >I never touched. > I looked up the NTSB report on your accident, but, of course, it says the engine quit for unknown reasons. Do you have any theories? I suspect that the engine was run and started up normally? Carb ice? I can't make all the mistakes so I tend to learn from others misfortune. Or fortune, too!!! ;-) . >I always planned to make the first flight and I prepared for it, so I never >considered the what-ifs of someone else flying my airplane. But maybe we all >should. Will you blame or second guess yourself if you break the airplane? >Can you handle someone else breaking your airplane? Would it be good to have >a scapegoat if something goes wrong;-)? If you pay someone to test fly it >and they get killed, can you rationalize it as a risk of his job? Can you >live with it if it's a good friend doing it as a favor? Is your family >better off if it's not you hurt or killed? > In today's litigous society, this is a very real problem. I would rather leave a widow than make one. >I had full first flight insurance and am otherwise covered but not everyone >is. > How much did that cost? Where did you get the coverage, abd how did you arrive at the coverage amount? I didn't know it existed. >Can you afford to fix or rebuild the airplane? > I had to. Took me 13 years to bend my bird. I look upon it as an educational experience. It was pilot error, although the error was different from the NTSB findings. > Can your family afford >the medical bills if you are injured or your loss if killed? Can you afford >to be off work during your recovery? What if you don't fully recover? Can >you afford the legal fallout if someone else flys and is hurt or killed? >Will your spouse let you rebuild if you get hurt vs. a test pilot? Will you >care? > I think we all care. Was the medical expenses covered in the first flight insurance, or was that a separate policy? Insurance from work??? >There are many more questions and no right or wrong, better or worse >answers. I pruned much of the decision tree without realizing it and we all >make some of these choices in our normal flying. But first flight and the >test period is a different level of risk warranting a fresh look. Do some >soul searching on the emotional and financial consequences to you and your >family if things don't go well. You may be surprised what you discover. > A good point. There's acceptable risk and unacceptable risk. It gives me pause to think that what happened to Greg could have been more disastrous, and I'm glad he had the wherewithal to survive his wild ride. I'm also glad he has the personality to persevere and rebuild. I have had two off-field landings, but neither plane, passengers, nor property were damaged in either one. I consider myself extremely fortunate. There really are guardian angels out there!!! IMHO, Greg made one mistake that got him caught. The narrative said he was returning to the airport when the engine quit. On my initial flight I climbed up to 3000' over my airport (the ceiling of class D at that time) and never was very far from safe haven. As the hours built up, I flew farther .... but always with a lot of altitude. >Regards, >Greg Young - Houston (DWH) >RV-6 N6GY ...project Phoenix >Navion N5221K - just an XXL RV-6A > Thanks for giving us something to dwell on while our 'first flight' is in the future!!! Linn Walters Do not archive ________________________________ Message 74 ____________________________________ Time: 06:27:08 PM PST US From: RV6160hp@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: EAA Young Eagles paranoid concern.... --> RV-List message posted by: RV6160hp@aol.com I believe you will find the EAA minimum level is $100,000 of liability the pilot must have on himself before the EAA young Eagles policy kicks in for the Million I believe. Just being a member of EAA and filling out the forms - flying young eagles doesn't mean you are covered. FOrms must be filled out and signed before YE flight, pilot must be legal, current and BFR'd and so on....As well the local EAA chapter must have filled out the insurance coverage request from stating YE rides are to be given at that event too ... well in advance before it is a covered... ________________________________ Message 75 ____________________________________ Time: 06:28:39 PM PST US From: linn walters Subject: Re: RV-List: New anti-corrosion policy from Van's? --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters I'd like to make a suggestion: Take pictures of the corrosion and send them to Van. If you have small pieces of aluminum with the corrosion .... send them too. There is obviously a problem that should be addressed. I do not know when the film is applied, but the adhesive may be the culprit. Nobody will know unless the problem is addressed .... and Van is the proper focal point. The aluminum sheets we use are coated with pure aluminum. It's very thin, and scratches can easily penetrate through the clad to the base aluminum alloy and produce the possibility of corrosion. This is why it's good to protect the clad by leaving the film on and only removing the film where riveting. So, as it was so eloquently put .... between a rock and a hard place .... what to do. Another lister read his plans/instructions ... which said remove the film. Seems like that's what y'all should do. Linn Walters Do not archive Curt Hoffman wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Curt Hoffman" > >This thread worried my some so I went downstairs to pull off the plastic on >my wings. I have had my wing kit for about three years now. Long enough that >the plastic on the wings is the old clear stuff while the plastic on the >tail is blue (I went backwards since I had already built a tail on a -6). >After removing all the plastic I found some corrosion. Mostly was little pin >spots here and there but one of the bottom skins I haven't riveted yet >pending my electrical decisions had quite a bit. Looked like little tiny >dots. I was able to polish them out with some scrubbing with a scotch brite >pad. The insides of all the surfaces were all fine since I alodined and >primered them. > >As to the old plastic getting hard to remove- it is a lot easier to remove >the old clear plastic from the wings then the brand new blue plastic off the >rudder and elevators. That blue stuff is thinner and sticks a lot more. I >think because it is thinner it tears / punctures easier instead of just >pulling off. > >I guess I had seen so many pictures of wings with only the plastic over the >rivet lines removed I latched on to that plan. It does protect the skin from >scratches but as noted can cause some corrosion. Rocks and hard places come >to mind for us slow builders. > >Curt Hoffman >RV-9A wings done for now- working on tail >Quick build fuselage now in basement >Piper Cherokee N5320W >1974 TR6 > ________________________________ Message 76 ____________________________________ Time: 06:29:53 PM PST US From: "Glen Matejcek" Subject: RV-List: Remote control winch? MIME_BOUND_NEXTPART --> RV-List message posted by: "Glen Matejcek" We've got a remote light switch that I believe we bought at Sears. It mounts in place of our orig stoop light switch and is controlled by the garage door opener remote. Sounds like it could be adapted to your needs pretty easily. Glen Matejcek aerobubba@earthlink.net ________________________________ Message 77 ____________________________________ Time: 06:32:02 PM PST US From: "David Carter" Subject: Test & cal of pitot-static sys & insts -was Re: RV-List: Pressure (in H2O) versus Airspeed --> RV-List message posted by: "David Carter" Rich, I've saved several e-mails w/info on manometers for pitot sys calibration. Since I don't think we can post attachments to the RV-list (please correct me if I'm wrong), I'll imbed them below - making this a long e-mail. These 4 e-mails include altimeter cal as well as airspeed. David Carter - - - - - - - - - - start of cut & paste e-mails E-mail #1 of 4: --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton (Kevin, a test pilot, adds info after the table and explanation below) >--> RV-List message posted by: P M Condon > >17.4/20 0.20 >26/30 0.44 >34.8/40 0.79 >43.5/50 1.23 >50/57.5 1.63 >69.6/80 3.16 >70/80 3.20 >86.9/100 4.94 >100/115 6.56 >104.3/120 7.13 >110/126.5 7.95 >120/138 9.48 >130/149.5 11.14 >130/150 11.18 >150/172.5 14.87 >173.9/200 20.04 >200/230 26.71 >217.4/250 31.63 > >First column is the airspeed in knots/MPH, second column is inches of >water. Very simple accurate manometer made with 4 feet if 1/4 inch clear >tubing from the hardware store and a yard stick and a wire tie. Wire tie >the tubing onto the yardstick in the form of a long, skinny "u" shape, >connect one end to the pitot tube and dribble water in the other end of >the "u" to calibrate AS indicator in your airplane. Leaks indicate >static or pitot connection leaks somewhere in your system, or AS >indicator problems. Don't allow water to enter the pitot tube. The >meniscus or "water level" or air-to-water lines indicate the pressure >differences as applied to the water coulomb in the poly tubing. The >length of differences between the two lines is what you are measuring >(as indicated in the second coulomb in the above table) > > >I've missed this handy table over the years and all the references at my >house don't have this table. I found this at the Rocky Mt. site, as >indicated by Jim Anders today.(A bunch of my friends don't have hi speed >internet or DSL to download the PDF file, or browsers that allow >external links. This ASCII version will be view able to all and also >reside in the archives. > Kevin added: I cranked up an Excel 4 spreadsheet that converts between height of the water column and the airspeed indicator reading. It will work in mph, kts or km/hr. The zipped spreadsheet file is at: http://members.rogers.com/khorton/rvlinks/asi.zip A lot of other good stuff can be found from my Flight Test Links page: http://members.rogers.com/khorton/ftlinks.html -- Kevin Horton RV-8 (fibreglas, yuck) Ottawa, Canada http://members.rogers.com/khorton/rv8.html - - - - - - - - - - - - E-mail #2 of 4: --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Andrews" Jim and all, Thanks for the long post and all the new data. Your right about us as a community needing to relate our own experiences for the benefit of all so something like this won't be repeated. When I did the first flight on my plane last August I relayed the fact that my airspeed gage was 20 mph off on my first flight. In retrospect this was pretty irresponsible of me not to have checked this out before I flew. Since I have a Rocky Mtn Instruments Micro Encoder, all I had to do was go to the calibration section of the manual to find out how to build a simple manometer to check out the pitot system myself. The whole experience took me about 30 minutes to construct the tool ( a simple clear tubing and yard stick affair ) that only cost me about $10. Using the chart in the back of the manual you can tell down to about a mph where you are with regard to calibration. I have two airspeed indicators in my panel so I can verify one against the other. You can also use this system to determine if you have a leak. The manual for the encoder is on the Rocky Mountain site ( http://www.rkymtn.com/ ) for anyone to download. In encourage everyone to do this and construct this tool long before your first flight to insure that what happened to Scott doesn't happen to you. - Jim Andrews RV-8A ( out of the paint shop this weekend... Yippeeeeee ) rv8a.tripod.com - - - - - - - - - - end of e-mail #2 - - - - - - - E-mail #3 of 4: From another e-mail, here is the website for all the above plus vastly more detail on calibaration of pitot-static system: http://www.eaa1000.av.org/technicl/instcal/instcal.htm I just clicked it and it still works. I would go there, then File, Save it as a document on your hard drive so it won't be lost someday. - - - - - - - - - - E-mail # 4 of 4 - Altimeter calibration (not what you asked for, Rich, but save it.): ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Horton" Subject: Re: RV-List: Altimeter calibration Formulae from Aviation Formulary, by Ed Williams: http://williams.best.vwh.net/avform.htm At sea-level on a standard day: the pressure, P_0 = 29.92126 "Hg = 1013.250 mB = 2116.2166 lbs/ft 2 = 760.0 mmHg = 101325.0 Pa = 14.69595 psi = 1.0 atm Variation of pressure with altitude: p= P_0*(1-6.8755856*10 -6 h) 5.2558797 h<36,089.24ft So, I cranked up a quick spreadsheet and got Variation of pressure with altitude: ft in H20 in hg mm hg mb psi 0 407.1 29.92126 760 1013.25 14.69595 1000 392.6 28.86 732.9 977.2 14.17 2000 378.5 27.82 706.7 942.1 13.66 3000 364.9 26.82 681.1 908.1 13.17 4000 351.6 25.84 656.4 875.1 12.69 5000 338.7 24.9 632.4 843.1 12.23 6000 326.2 23.98 609.0 812.0 11.78 7000 314.1 23.09 586.4 781.9 11.34 8000 302.4 22.22 564.5 752.6 10.92 9000 291.0 21.39 543.3 724.3 10.5 10000 280.0 20.58 522.7 696.8 10.11 But, I think this will be a difficult thing to measure unless you can find some specialized (read expensive) equipment. Kevin Horton RV-8 (spinner, cowling) Ottawa, Canada http://members.rogers.com/khorton/rv8.html With a short addition by --> RV-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" Or you could just get out your AC 43.13-1A It has a table in inches of water for a water manometer and it is accurate and simple. New version unfortunately does NOT have the table nor instructions. - - - - - - - - - - - end of quoted e-mails on the topic. David Carter ________________________________ Message 78 ____________________________________ Time: 06:44:50 PM PST US From: "Jim Cimino" Subject: RV-List: RV-Pilot Bed & Breakfast? --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Cimino" There used to be an organization out there called the "Pilot's Bed & Breakfast", which if you were a member, you agreed to have traveling pilots stay at your home when they passed through town. I spent some time with these members and their families on some long trips in the early 90's and really enjoyed it. Has anyone though of organizing such a group for our fellow RV Pilots? We all love our RV's and we love to share them with others as well as talk about them. The thing that made the original organization great was that you had something in common with people all over the country and you could spend time with and meet people who you had already something in common. I think us RV drivers have a lot in common and I always enjoy meeting new people. I stayed with individuals from St. Louis to Los Angeles and really had a great time, and saved some money too. The only expense in the organization was for a yearly catalog which listed members contact information. With the web, I think this could easily be done without any expense. Anyone interested? James Cimino RV-8 SN 80039 100+ Hours 570-842-4057 http://www.geocities.com/jcimino.geo/ ________________________________ Message 79 ____________________________________ Time: 07:13:08 PM PST US From: Jim Sears Subject: Re: RV-List: New anti-corrosion policy from Van's? --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears If I may chime in on this discussion. As some have said before, Alclad should be allowed to do its job. If one will look inside the wings of a C172, one can see what the alclad does. One will find small white splotches all over the insides of the wings. This is OK because it protects the alloy . However, I'd let my wing skins lay flat over my work area for about three years because I had a job that got in the way of my project. During that period, the edges of the plastic raised in several places along the edges of the sheets. Sweating on the roof of my metal building dripped onto that area. Little did I know that corrosion had set up on the skins. When I removed the plastic to use the skins, I had quite a bit of corrosion on a couple of my skins. I had to use an aluminum cleaner and Scotchbrite to remove the corrosion and promptly applied some primer to help protect them. It wasn't the plastic, other than its lifting to give mosture opportunity to get in. It was the water dripping off the metal roof that got it started. Fortunately, I was able to save mine from total destruction; but, it could have been worse had I been away from the project much longer. Jim Sears in KY RV-6A N198JS EAA Tech Counselor do not archive ________________________________ Message 80 ____________________________________ Time: 07:14:29 PM PST US From: "John" Subject: RV-List: Projects, Projects --> RV-List message posted by: "John" DO NOT ARCHIVE Long -- so delete now...its mostly rambling stuff anyway ! The number of 'repeat offenders," - that is, folks who build second or more RV's are quietly afflicted with the love of building. In my case I just keep doing things to the one and only RV I probably will ever undertake. The latest (in a long line of additions/changes) undertaking was to make an entire new instrument panel, so that I could incorporate an electronic tachometer, and also move my Nav-Aid control head and some other instruments from the vertical support column that holds the throttle, etc, into the main panel. I also decided to re-do as much of the electrical wiring that I could on the pilot's side of the firewall and make it neater (and hopefully less of a spider's web.) That's a fairly involved undertaking it self, even without builder-induced errors or accidents. I had several. The first problem was a broken slide-in receptacle for the transceiver...had to pay $84 to get a used tray so I could remove the 50-cent plastic plug at the rear to replace the broken one. Wow! I'm in the wrong business. The really frustrating part was the final stages...everything was done except for wiring in the intercom to the transceiver..that went well until check-out. The microphone circuit was dead. After checking every wire and plug involved I was ready to give up. As I sat there pondering what to do, I thought, "What the heck, might as well try another headset...who knows?" Would you believe? The SoftComm noise cancelling headset that I had been using for several years decided to die just at this critical point, leading me to believe I had make some boneheaded error. The mic won't work..the other headsets in the hangar worked just fine ! (Incidentally, that SoftComm headset was the THIRD one they supplied me under warranty...they had their troubles also.) Anyway, the panel is done, installed, looks great and probably was worth the time I put on it...I began the day after I got back from LOE3 and just finished today ! Do we have fun or what? John at Salida, CO ________________________________ Message 81 ____________________________________ Time: 07:24:32 PM PST US From: "Richard Sipp" Subject: Re: RV-List: The natural progresion of lists - was Food Fight, etc. --> RV-List message posted by: "Richard Sipp" I think Steve Eberhart is right on with his comments. I for one am very glad that after 20 some odd years of building kits the same way, Van listened when some young engineer said there is a better way with CAD/CNC technology. The 10 kit and documentation show what new ideas can produce. The kit is an absolute pleasure to assemble. Dick Sipp RV4 N250DS RV10 N110DV ________________________________ Message 82 ____________________________________ Time: 07:35:35 PM PST US From: Charlie & Tupper England Subject: Re: RV-List: RV-Pilot Bed & Breakfast? --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie & Tupper England Jim Cimino wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Cimino" > >There used to be an organization out there called the "Pilot's Bed & Breakfast", which if you were a member, you agreed to have traveling pilots stay at your home when they passed through town. I spent some time with these members and their families on some long trips in the early 90's and really enjoyed it. Has anyone though of organizing such a group for our fellow RV Pilots? We all love our RV's and we love to share them with others as well as talk about them. The thing that made the original organization great was that you had something in common with people all over the country and you could spend time with and meet people who you had already something in common. I think us RV drivers have a lot in common and I always enjoy meeting new people. I stayed with individuals from St. Louis to Los Angeles and really had a great time, and saved some money too. The only expense in the organization was for a yearly catalog which listed members contact information. With th! >e web, I think this could easily be done without any expense. >Anyone interested? > >James Cimino >RV-8 SN 80039 >100+ Hours >570-842-4057 >http://www.geocities.com/jcimino.geo/ > try: http://www.vansairforce.net/rvtravelpages.htm or http://www.vansairforce.net/ & scroll down to RV Hotel. If you are passing through Mississippi, give us a call. Charlie ________________________________ Message 83 ____________________________________ Time: 07:40:11 PM PST US From: "R. Craig Chipley" Subject: Re: RV-List: RE: New anti-corrosion policy from Van's? --> RV-List message posted by: "R. Craig Chipley" List, The basics of corrosion is that every metal is trying to revert to its natural state as soon as it is made. The Alclad just makes it harder to do so. If moisture is between the plastic cover and the metal, then the white powder of corrosion will follow. --- sshah@shreyans.info wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: sshah@shreyans.info > > My goodness! This message sent shiver down my spine. > I thought the Van's says > that the alclad is good enough to deter corrosion > and it's not necessary to > primer the alclad parts. Then, how can the skins get > corroded! even if there > was dampness on the skin. I primer all internal > parts but the outer surfaces > are all exposed and will be till I get to the final > paint. I've stored the > completed empennage parts in basement which is kind > of dry environment but > still exposed to all the condensation & moisture in > the air. I'll shoot myself > if when I get the fuselage done few years down the > road and find that the > empennage is all corroded. Does everybody take some > special measures to reduce > the humidity in the storage area? Do you coat the > skins with something before > storage to avoid corrosion? Any input would be > greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > Shreyans > > > > Subject: New anti-corrosion policy from > Van's? > > From: Kevin Behrent > (kbehrent@cascadiasoftware.com) > > Date: Tue Nov 18 - 11:58 AM > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Behrent > > > > > Just got started on my wing kit and found that I > will have to buy a > > complete set of wing skins before I get started > due to corrosion. > > > > I've had both my emp & wing kit for a couple of > years and haven't really > > worked on the kits for a variety of reasons. > Recently, I have gotten the > > time and motivation to finish it. With emp done, I > started on the wings > > and had them ready for debur/dimple/priming when I > started to peel the > > plastic back to reveal what wasn't so apparent > through the plastic. A > > corrosion nightmare! > > > > Yeah, I had the kit for a couple of years, but it > was stored in a dry > > space and the emp kit sat just as long with no > corrosion at all (plastic > > still on!). After soliciting opinions/suggestions > from several builders > > in my chapter (EAA 326 - great chapter!!), I had > the local FAA guy (also > > a chapter member) come by and render the final > fatal verdict. After a > > close inspection, it appears that the plastic > coating may have been > > applied when the wing skins were damp since the > corrosion is not only on > > the edge, but everywhere. > > > > I called Van's today to beg for mercy and it was > decided that I would > > bring back the skins for their review and hopeful > exchange (does not > > appear likely). They did make a interesting > comment that I suspect that > > none of you have ever heard from them and the > reason I am risking > > getting flamed from our resident flamer(s). That > is, why didn't I remove > > the plastic "immediately" after > receiving/inventoring the kit? Well, > > that was news to me. Certainly I knew not to store > in a wet/damp > > environment, but it hadn't occurred to me that a > dry environment was > > just as bad. > > > > So builders beware, I guess the new Van's policy > when receiving your > > kit is to inventory and IMMEDIATELY remove ALL > plastic coatings from > > surfaces. While your admiring the pretty blue > plastic after you've > > carefully/skillfully/patiently removed the plastic > where you'll be > > riveting; leaving the remainder thinking you are > protecting the surface > > from scratches, it's corroding away leaving only > the scratches from the > > area that you DID peel the plastics! > > > > Do not archive. > > > > -- > > Kevin Behrent > > rv-9a - wings > > > > > > > > > > Click on the > this > generous > _-> > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > http://www.matronics.com/chat > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 84 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:16 PM PST US From: "thomas a. sargent" Subject: RV-List: tip-up rear window fit --> RV-List message posted by: "thomas a. sargent" I have the rear window on my RV-6A tip-up close to its final size, but not yet drilled to the F-674 skin or the roll bar. When I clamp it in place I notice that it lays flat along the top of the roll bar, but along the sides of the roll bar, there is about 1/16" gap between the forward edge of the plexi and the surface of the roll bar. There the plexi contacts the roll bar only at its aft edge. When you think of the geometry of the situation, it seems to me that this is inescapable. The roll bar is built square, that is, the part that the plexi lays on is perpendicular to the bar's forward and aft faces. But the plexi tapers towards the back the same way the fuselage does. Since the roll bar is slanted back, its top edge is tilted at an angle that matches the angle of the plexi, but the tilt does almost nothing to change the angle that the sides make to the plexi. I never noticed noticed this gap on other planes before, but it seems like it's designed in. I guess one solution would be to cut the forward edge of the window back further. Right now it is trimmed to put its forward edge 3/8" back from the forward face of the roll bar - as the plan require. Have other people seen the same effect? How have you dealt with it? -- Tom Sargent RV-6A ________________________________ Message 85 ____________________________________ Time: 08:05:40 PM PST US From: "Joe Hine" Subject: RE: RV-List: RV-Pilot Bed & Breakfast? --> RV-List message posted by: "Joe Hine" Jim Doug Reeves has such a thing on his web site, he doesn't promote it too much but it is there with a list of Rvers who are willing to put up others. His site is http://www.vansairforce.net/ select RV hotel from the menu on the left. Joe Hine RV4 C-FYTQ -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jim Cimino Subject: RV-List: RV-Pilot Bed & Breakfast? --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Cimino" There used to be an organization out there called the "Pilot's Bed & Breakfast", which if you were a member, you agreed to have traveling pilots stay at your home when they passed through town. I spent some time with these members and their families on some long trips in the early 90's and really enjoyed it. Has anyone though of organizing such a group for our fellow RV Pilots? We all love our RV's and we love to share them with others as well as talk about them. The thing that made the original organization great was that you had something in common with people all over the country and you could spend time with and meet people who you had already something in common. I think us RV drivers have a lot in common and I always enjoy meeting new people. I stayed with individuals from St. Louis to Los Angeles and really had a great time, and saved some money too. The only expense in the organization was for a yearly catalog which listed members contact information. With th! e web, I think this could easily be done without any expense. Anyone interested? James Cimino RV-8 SN 80039 100+ Hours 570-842-4057 http://www.geocities.com/jcimino.geo/ ________________________________ Message 86 ____________________________________ Time: 08:19:06 PM PST US From: "Larry Pardue" Subject: Re: RV-List: RV-Pilot Bed & Breakfast? --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Pardue" High time you got acquainted with Doug Reeves. http://65.219.228.161/rvtravelpages.htm Larry Pardue Carlsbad, NM RV-6 N441LP Flying http://n5lp.net > --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Cimino" > > There used to be an organization out there called the "Pilot's Bed & Breakfast", which if you were a member, you agreed to have traveling pilots stay at your home when they passed through town. I spent some time with these members and their families on some long trips in the early 90's and really enjoyed it. Has anyone though of organizing such a group for our fellow RV Pilots? We all love our RV's and we love to share them with others as well as talk about them. The thing that made the original organization great was that you had something in common with people all over the country and you could spend time with and meet people who you had already something in common. I think us RV drivers have a lot in common and I always enjoy meeting new people. I stayed with individuals from St. Louis to Los Angeles and really had a great time, and saved some money too. The only expense in the organization was for a yearly catalog which listed members contact information. With th! > e web, I think this could easily be done without any expense. > Anyone interested? > > James Cimino > RV-8 SN 80039 > 100+ Hours > 570-842-4057 > http://www.geocities.com/jcimino.geo/ > ________________________________ Message 87 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:38 PM PST US From: "Michael D. Crowe" Subject: RV-List: RV10 Tail kit Atlanta area? --> RV-List message posted by: "Michael D. Crowe" Does anyone in the Atlanta GA area have an RV10 tail kit I could come look at? Thank You Mike Crowe RV8A wings ________________________________ Message 88 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:58 PM PST US From: Chris W Subject: Re: RV-List: OT: Can I make this engine work in my -8 somehow? --> RV-List message posted by: Chris W Phil N wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Phil N" > > I don't think the battery in the tail will help much with the CG > though. The wife might complain about the fuel burn, too. > > http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccsshb/12cyl/ If you consider how big of a battery you are going to need to spin the starter motor on that engine, I think you would just need to extend the tail a little to get the CG in line :) What I want to know is how many horse power is the starter motor for that engine. That is one stat they didn't give on that web page. do not archive -- Chris Woodhouse 3147 SW 127th St. Oklahoma City, OK 73170 405-691-5206 chrisw@programmer.net N35 20.492' W97 34.342' "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania ________________________________ Message 89 ____________________________________ Time: 08:57:34 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Wright brothers From: "David.vonLinsowe" --> RV-List message posted by: "David.vonLinsowe" Hi guys, I'm looking for a RV friendly airport in the vicinity of the Wright reenactment December 17th. If the weather cooperates I would rather take the RV instead of an airliner. It takes 6 1/2 hours travel time by airliner, not counting the extra time you need to be there early, and 3 1/2 hours air time by RV from Michigan. I already have tickets, ground transportation and hotel. Thanks, Dave RV-6 **************************************************************************************** Note: The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential and thus protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Thank you. **************************************************************************************** ________________________________ Message 90 ____________________________________ Time: 09:44:38 PM PST US From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: RV-List: Air screw..... --> RV-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" Wonder what the pitch and diameter of the prop would be to get airborne at the blinding RPM of 102. 8*) Kabong Do not archive ---- Original Message ----- From: "Chris W" Subject: Re: RV-List: OT: Can I make this engine work in my -8 somehow? I don't think the battery in the tail will help much with the CG though. The wife might complain about the fuel burn, too. http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccsshb/12cyl/ If you consider how big of a battery you are going to need to spin the starter motor on that engine, I think you would just need to extend the tail a little to get the CG in line :) What I want to know is how many horse power is the starter motor for that engine. That is one stat they didn't give on that web page. ________________________________ Message 91 ____________________________________ Time: 09:48:24 PM PST US From: "Jim Jewell" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re-Food Fights, questions, and do not archive --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" warning! stupidity ahead! delete now ----- Original Message ----- From: "linn walters" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re-Food Fights, questions, and do not archive Linn Walters responded: > --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters > > Jim Jewell wrote: > > >--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" > > > >Hello, > > > >To everyone like me on this list that can not always resist the temptation > >to jump directly out of a lack of information, directly into a forgone > >conclusion without using the dreaded "do not archive". > > > You mean me? ;-) If the shoe fits you get to go to the ball. ;) > > >What ever happened to the once common adage that suggested; People who live > >in glass houses should not throw stones?: > > > Well, after Hurricane Andrew, the state decreed that glass houses had to > withstand 150 MPH winds, and with the large surface area ...... never > said anything about flames, though. so, all glass houses have to be > equipped with shutters that can withstand a 2X4 hurled point on, fired > from a CO2 gun ..... like Momma nature has them! Oops, I just jumped > too soon!!! :-D Ah-Ha! you learned something already Grasshopper, you can now recognize when you have jumped too soon! With more effort and some luck you will master not jumping untill the time is right!! 8-) > > >With just a bit of experience with the use of a computer keyboard and some > >spare time on the web, anyone!, from anywhere in the world!, can enter the > >RV-List archives house of mirrors and see clearly into even the darkest of > >it's corners. > > > Aah, I'm sceptical. I've been in the house of mirrors and all I saw was > many copies of myself. Scary, really scary! :-P > I can relate, I get a simular effect when I look into the threeway mirror in the morning. YIKES!!! 8-| > >Once again I will point out that by entering your own name into the rv-list > >archives search box you to can peruse all that you have said over the years. > >That is of course with the exclusion of the times that you did, wisely or > >not, elect to use the by now infamous Do Not Archive while posting. > > > Well, there were a few posts that I didn't do that. So flog me. I > love it. I thrive on pain. Which is why I'm going to assemble a bunch > of little parts to make one big part .... an RV-10. Aw heck! you got me there, I'm only building a 6-A. B-[ ..but mine is allmost done, HA!! > > >Regardless of your position re-the current flap, or some other emotion > >grabbing future issue: > > > Hey, you're a quick learner .... no 'irregardless'??? indubitably. > > > If you are overcome with the need to respond or otherwise jump into this, > >that or another one of these topics or any future inevitable out of context > >"food fights"; > > > >First try entering your own name in the archive search box. > > > Well, I'm new so thankfully there aren't as many as others!!! I didn't > know about the DNA message. I plead ignorance or insanity. Ok, both. Rest assured Grasshopper, newness does not last. > > > If you are judgmentally satisfied with your own past behavior on the list > >and are not in the least a bit humbled by what you find there? You will most > >likely feel inclined to carry on and provide the list with yet another bit > >of well thought out wisdom without the need for the use of the famous Do Not > >Archive. > > > Hopefully. I really want to contribute something meaningful, but this > 'food fight' thing has been fun. I hope everyone sees it as an attempt > at humor. It was meant that way. You already have, I don't know about the rest of the listers but you got me laughing, thanks! g-} > > >About stupid questions; > > For most of us the stupid questions we asked in the past have put us into > >the position of being able to ask much more highly evolved stupid questions. > > > Now I like this part!!! :-) Me to, even if I do say so myself . > > >Questions that might impress the hell out of all except those whom have > >traveled the road before us. > > > This is what makes lists so great! I love it!!! You get answers to > your stupid questions (yeah, I know there aren't any .... just stupid > answers!) and if you can remember the answers, you impress the newbies > with your knowledge! We have self-perpetuating experts! I wanna be one > of those!!! Is it OK if I read all the posts and then, when asked, post > the answers as my own??? Nah, that won't work. My memory isn't that > good. Poo. I had hopes! :-( Be calm grasshopper, in time the mists will clear. > > >There is hope. > > > Oh, thank goodness! :-) Darn tootin! > > >The list has a way of surviving these bad riveting days. > > > Love the metaphor. But maybe you're serious. Are there bad riveting > days? Will I get infected??? Is there a cure? Yeah, but you are not gonna like it. Total withdrawal,.. cold turkey!... cancel all orders, sell all parts and the Tools as well!!! ..... Well, what can I say?, sometimes life is just too Damn hard! > > >If you have read this far and are not yet amused at the tongue in cheek > >intent herein. > > > Wait! You mean you're not serious??? This is all a scam??? I'm > confused. How do we know what's serious and what's not? It's not in > the archives! ARRRGH!!! :-[ I hated to have to break it to ya, YUP! smoke and mirrors, just smoke and mirrors. > > > There is but one thing I might suggest; > > > Ah, comes the knowledge! > > >Go back to the shop and work on your airplane, {(;-)! > > > But it's not here yet!!! I'm in limbo! Maybe I can go practice > riveting on someone elses plane 'till mine gets here! Gee's grasshopper,!?? Confusious never said dick all about having to wait for an RV 10 kit to arrive. I guess your supposed to be patient or ?! er..? ah.... have another beer!? > > >Jim in Kelowna Oh!. and,... DO NOT ARCHIVE (;-) > > > Thanks Jim, and thanks for the DNA. I'll plant it at a murder scene .... > Linn (smokin' keyboard) Walters in ..... the witness protection program. > Always happy to help. Don't forget you must leave the ball before 12:00 !!! OH!, and for God sakes don't smoke the keyboard! the kit will get there and you'll need it to ask more questions. These youngsters nowadays will smoke Anything! How the hell would yah light one anyhow!? mumble..... grumble..... haack,.. patewy. > > ________________________________ Message 92 ____________________________________ Time: 10:45:16 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Remote control winch From: j1j2h3@juno.com --> RV-List message posted by: j1j2h3@juno.com Electrical departments in places like Home Depot sell remote control light switches. I think one of these would do the job for you. I used one once to replace a lost remote for my garage door opener. Jim Hasper - RV-7 just starting empennage (setting up shop in Franklin, Tennessee) --> RV-List message posted by: Dan DeNeal (snip) >Where can I buy something like a garage door remote >control that I could use to replace the extension wire. ________________________________ Message 93 ____________________________________ Time: 11:14:19 PM PST US From: "Jim Jewell" Subject: Re: RV-List: Air screw..... --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" If Hartzell makes that prop, will it have a continuous use RPM restriction at 95 RPM through to 97.5 RPM??? Jim in Kelowna do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: RV-List: Air screw..... > --> RV-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" > > Wonder what the pitch and diameter of the prop would be to get airborne at > the blinding RPM of 102. 8*) Kabong Do not archive > > ---- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris W" > To: > Subject: Re: RV-List: OT: Can I make this engine work in my -8 somehow? > > > I don't think the battery in the tail will help much with the CG > though. The wife might complain about the fuel burn, too. > http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccsshb/12cyl/ > > If you consider how big of a battery you are going to need to spin the > starter > motor on that engine, I think you would just need to extend the tail a > little > to get the CG in line :) What I want to know is how many horse power is the > starter motor for that engine. That is one stat they didn't give on that > web > page. > >