Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:13 AM - Re: Low Oil Temps (Steve Sampson)
2. 05:15 AM - Oil temps (Jim Nolan)
3. 05:27 AM - Re: Low Oil Temps (Lenleg@aol.com)
4. 05:34 AM - Re: Westach egine instruments (Alan McKeen)
5. 05:38 AM - using non-sheared wing tips on RV-7 (Van Heuveln)
6. 06:00 AM - Re: using non-sheared wing tips on RV-7 (Neil McLeod)
7. 06:12 AM - Hanger at Dallas NW regional (Doug Rozendaal)
8. 08:04 AM - wing spar c-sinking ()
9. 08:39 AM - Re: wing spar c-sinking (Denis Walsh)
10. 08:42 AM - Re: using non-sheared wing tips on RV-7 (Randy Lervold)
11. 08:48 AM - OIL TEMPS (Scott Brown)
12. 08:51 AM - Re: wing spar c-sinking (Ron Walker)
13. 09:09 AM - Wing Tips (John)
14. 09:11 AM - Re: Low Oil Temps (kempthornes)
15. 09:51 AM - Re: Wing Tips (Tedd McHenry)
16. 09:51 AM - Re: Low Oil Temps (Stein Bruch)
17. 09:59 AM - Re: Wing Tips (linn walters)
18. 11:08 AM - Re: wing spar c-sinking and dimpling (Jim Jewell)
19. 11:29 AM - wing tips (RVer273sb@aol.com)
20. 11:34 AM - Re: wing spar c-sinking (Graham Potts)
21. 12:27 PM - Re: RV-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 11/21/03 (PSPRV6A@aol.com)
22. 12:36 PM - Re: wing spar c-sinking (Larry Bowen)
23. 12:49 PM - Re: Wing Tips (Boyd Braem)
24. 01:13 PM - LOW OIL TEMP ON RV-4 (bruno)
25. 01:14 PM - Re: wing spar c-sinking (Dana Overall)
26. 01:17 PM - Re: wing spar c-sinking (Dana Overall)
27. 01:19 PM - Re: Drill Size??? (Gil Alexander)
28. 01:22 PM - Cheap Strobes (Norman Hunger)
29. 01:25 PM - Re: wing spar c-sinking (Shreyans Shah)
30. 01:41 PM - Re: LOW OIL TEMP ON RV-4 (Brian Denk)
31. 05:16 PM - Re: wing spar c-sinking (Dwight Frye)
32. 05:41 PM - RV-6A AOG SFM Sanford, Maine USA (RV6 Flyer)
33. 06:24 PM - Rosales RV-6A AOG SFM Sanford, Maine USA (RGray67968@aol.com)
34. 07:20 PM - Water-borne and Solvent-based Paint Compatability (long) (Douglas A. Fischer)
35. 07:55 PM - Re: Wing Tips (long) (LeastDrag93066@aol.com)
36. 07:59 PM - Re: LOW OIL TEMP ON RV-4 (Larry Bowen)
37. 08:34 PM - Re: LOW OIL TEMP ON RV-4 (Brian Denk)
38. 08:41 PM - Re: LOW OIL TEMP ON RV-4 (Pat Hatch)
39. 11:31 PM - Re: Low Oil Temps / cooler condensation? (GMC)
Message 1
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Steve Sampson" <SSampson.SLN21@london.edu>
Mike - I was plagued for ages with low oil temps on a Supercub O-320-A2B.
Except on the hottest days of an English summer with the oil cooler blanked
off the oil ran very cool - 150/160 max - with CHT similar to yours. As
someone has observed there are various settings on the vernatherm but they
are not very far apart so are not going to make a huge difference. One
thing, be sure it is working correctly and there is no dirt in it since this
would cause problems though if I remember correctly different symptoms. As
time has gone by it has crept up slightly, though I still rarely see 180,
but oil analysis tells me the oil has no water content so I have largely
become used to it. Curiously I recieved very little feedback about a cool
running engine. Lots of advice on those that overheat. The increrase I have
had I largely connect to a new cylinder that went on about 18 mos ago.
I would suggest you have an analysis done on the oil and if there is no
water content not worry too much. Steve.
---
Message 2
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Nolan" <jamespnolan@earthlink.net>
Listers,
Got a question. Does the oil temp sending unit lie before the Vernatherm
or after the Vernatherm. If it lies before, seems like you would have higher
oil temps. If it lies after, seems like you would have lower oil temps and
be at the mercy of the Vernatherm temperature rating stamped on the housing.
Or, God forbid. You're Vernatherm wasn't working and you were monitoring
oil temps after the Vernatherm.
Jim Nolan
N444JN
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Low Oil Temps |
--> RV-List message posted by: Lenleg@aol.com
After what happened to me ... I would be very concerned about getting the oil
temp up to at least a high enought temp to burn off any condensation.
I was planning a trip to see Mike Stewart last winter for the formation
clinic in Atlanta. Got out to the hanger on a very cold day. We had just
experienced an ice storm ... ice still covering the ground.
Cranked the engine ... oil pressure dropped and oil was everywhere!! I had
been having trouble getting the oil temps up during cold weather. I have the
large Niagara oil cooler. Works great in the hot summers but could only get
the oil temp to 140-150 degrees in the winter. It is my understanding that you
have to get to at least 180 to burn off any condensation.
The problem turned out to be the oil cooler ... one or more of the inner
tubes had burst. Condensation had formed in the oil ... stopped in the thin
walled aluminum tubes in the cooler and froze in the cold weather ... burst !!!
It makes a big mess on your plane .. on the ground ... cancel big plans for
formation flying .... but thank goodness it happened on the ground and not in
the air.
I started blocking off the back of the cooler with a plate for winter flying.
It works great for getting my temps up. The only problem is fall and spring
when the temp outside varies and you don't know when to put on and when to
take off. I am in the process of putting my plate on a hinge so that I can
control it from the cockpit.
Good luck ... hope to make it Mike Stearts formation clinic this year !!!!!
Len Leggette, RV-8A
Greensboro, NC N910LL
168 hrs
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Westach egine instruments |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Alan McKeen" <amckeen@twcny.rr.com>
I do not recommend the Westach EGT multiprobe instrument. It was very erratic,
switch sensitive, and lacks the precision to use for effective leaning. I flew
with the Westach mutiprobe EGT/CHT for about 400 hours in my RV-6. They have
been removed and replace with Aerospace Logic multiprobe digital EGT and CHT.
These digital instruments are reasonable cost, very reliable, and very precise.
I recommend them highly, and suggest you get them with the probe kits.
My Westach EGT probes worked okay, but the Westach CHT probes had to be replaced.
The improved, more precise mixture leaning capability with these digital
instruments has resulted in what appears to be fuel burn reduction of over 1/2
GPH for me.
Alan McKeen
N418AL
RV-6
http://www.aerospacelogic.com/
Message 5
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| Subject: | using non-sheared wing tips on RV-7 |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Van Heuveln" <lemar@hillstel.net>
I used the RV-8 tips on my -7 for the same reasons you listed. They fit just fine
and Vans exchanged them at no cost.
I have recently added belly mounted com antennas as I found the wingtip type too
directional to suit me. ( I used copper foil antennas that somewhat wrapped
up the outside edge of the tip). I continue to use the wingtip antenna for VOR/ILS/Glidesope
as the directional characteristics seem to be less of a problem
for nav.
L. Van Heuveln
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: using non-sheared wing tips on RV-7 |
--> RV-List message posted by: Neil McLeod <neilmcleod@direcway.com>
Dan,
I asked the factory the same question and they said they would fit just
fine.
Neil McLeod,
finishing and FWF 7qb.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
Subject: RV-List: using non-sheared wing tips on RV-7
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
>
> I simply do not like the looks of the wing tips that came with my RV-7.
> They taper outboard as they run aft, and I just think that makes the plane
> look silly. That's just my aesthetic preference.
>
> So I'm trying to figure out how feasible it would be to use the older RV-6
> style wing tips on my RV-7.
>
> 1) Does anybody know if the chord/profile of the wing is identical from
> the -6 to the -7/-8?
>
> 2) I've read in the archives that the old non-sheared tips are actually
> slightly better for top-end speed...is there any truth in practice to
this?
>
> 3) What do you suppose the risks would be in swapping wing tip styles?
>
> The reasons I'm motivated to try this would be:
>
> - better looks
> - easier to give the Archer com antenna more vertical polarization (I
> believe)
> - possibly better roll rate, lighter break-out force
> - possibly higher top end
>
> Reasons I might shy away from the conversion:
>
> - Van's shifted to the new style for a reason
> - the new tips have a built-in recess for lighting, I would have to make
my
> own
> - less wing area, possibly less stability, lighter break-out force
>
> I'll take any and all perspective on this, even if it's just "you're nuts,
> stick with what Van's gives you."
>
> Thanks in advance,
> )_( Dan
> RV-7 N714D
> http://www.rvproject.com
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Hanger at Dallas NW regional |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr@petroblend.com>
I am going to be at the ICAS (Intl Council of Airshows) Convention in Dallas
From Dec 7-10 if anyone has some extra hanger space for a -4 at NW Regional
I would apprecaite it. Please respond offline to dougr@petroblend.com
Thanks.
Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
Do not archive
Message 8
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| Subject: | wing spar c-sinking |
--> RV-List message posted by: "" <tx_jayhawk@excite.com>
All,
I am countersinking the wing spars, and I am concerned. I did a search of the
archives, but didn't really get the assurance I was hoping for. Given that the
spar is a pretty expensive part to screw up, I want to be extra sure. When
c-sinking for the tank attach nutplate screws, the instructions say to use a piece
of .032 dimpled to #8 to test for correct depth. You have to remove a great
deal of material to make this happen...is this normal? The #30 c-sink will
have long since bottomed out and made the hole bigger, and I am still not entirely
flush. Pictures on the attached webpage...I would appreciate any feedback.
http://sky.prohosting.com/rv7a/spar1.htm
Thanks,
Scott Haskins
RV7A wings
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: wing spar c-sinking |
--> RV-List message posted by: Denis Walsh <denis.walsh@comcast.net>
Looks like your dimple is a little puffy. Pound it again. You really need
to smash those fellows. If the dimple is not pounded really hard, it will
neither nest in the countersink hole, nor allow the screw to sit flush.
In any event, a slightly enlarged countersink hole in this area should do
no harm, since the shear load is taken by the screw to dimple and through
the nut plate to its rivets to the other skin.
Hope this is helpful
Denis
> From: "" <tx_jayhawk@excite.com>
> Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 11:04:12 -0500 (EST)
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV-List: wing spar c-sinking
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "" <tx_jayhawk@excite.com>
>
>
> All,
>
> I am countersinking the wing spars, and I am concerned. I did a search of the
> archives, but didn't really get the assurance I was hoping for. Given that
> the spar is a pretty expensive part to screw up, I want to be extra sure.
> When c-sinking for the tank attach nutplate screws, the instructions say to
> use a piece of .032 dimpled to #8 to test for correct depth. You have to
> remove a great deal of material to make this happen...is this normal? The #30
> c-sink will have long since bottomed out and made the hole bigger, and I am
> still not entirely flush. Pictures on the attached webpage...I would
> appreciate any feedback.
>
> http://sky.prohosting.com/rv7a/spar1.htm
>
> Thanks,
> Scott Haskins
> RV7A wings
>
>
> Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
> The most personalized portal on the Web!
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: using non-sheared wing tips on RV-7 |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Lervold" <randy@rv-8.com>
> I simply do not like the looks of the wing tips that came with my RV-7.
> They taper outboard as they run aft, and I just think that makes the plane
> look silly. That's just my aesthetic preference.
And here I thought i was the only one... me too!
> So I'm trying to figure out how feasible it would be to use the older RV-6
> style wing tips on my RV-7.
> 1) Does anybody know if the chord/profile of the wing is identical from
> the -6 to the -7/-8?
It's identical, the old tips will fit perfectly. Perhaps there are some
builder's out there who would swap with you.
> 2) I've read in the archives that the old non-sheared tips are actually
> slightly better for top-end speed...is there any truth in practice to
this?
The official Van's line is "there is no measureable difference, we switched
due to the preference for the new look".
> 3) What do you suppose the risks would be in swapping wing tip styles?
None.
Randy Lervold
RV-8, 360 hrs with the old tips that look better IMHO
www.rv-8.com
Message 11
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Scott Brown" <scottbrown@precisionjet.com>
Listers,
Just put a new Sam James cowl on my -4 with the fiberglass plenum chamber,
what is the optimal oil temps that I should be seeing? I currently am at 200
in the air and 210 on the ground.
scott
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: wing spar c-sinking |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ron Walker" <ron@walker.net>
Looks to me like you are doing fine. Pretty much everyone is concerned at
the size of the c-sink required. Yours is looking good! Keep it up. One
thing that I did though was to c-sink the rivet holes of the nutplates
first, then rivet the nutplates on, *then* c-sink the screw hole. The
nutplate keeps the c-sink centered in the hole.
Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: <tx_jayhawk@excite.com>
Subject: RV-List: wing spar c-sinking
> --> RV-List message posted by: "" <tx_jayhawk@excite.com>
>
>
> All,
>
> I am countersinking the wing spars, and I am concerned. I did a search of
the archives, but didn't really get the assurance I was hoping for. Given
that the spar is a pretty expensive part to screw up, I want to be extra
sure. When c-sinking for the tank attach nutplate screws, the instructions
say to use a piece of .032 dimpled to #8 to test for correct depth. You have
to remove a great deal of material to make this happen...is this normal?
The #30 c-sink will have long since bottomed out and made the hole bigger,
and I am still not entirely flush. Pictures on the attached webpage...I
would appreciate any feedback.
>
> http://sky.prohosting.com/rv7a/spar1.htm
>
> Thanks,
> Scott Haskins
> RV7A wings
>
>
> Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
> The most personalized portal on the Web!
>
>
Message 13
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--> RV-List message posted by: "John" <n1cxo320@salidaco.com>
The discussion regarding wing tips brings to mind a question I have been
pondering lately.
A friend has a plane he races in the Reno Air Races (Formula V I believe)
and he has modified his wing tips so that the aft edges, instead of being
'straight' now are curved into a 'curl' so that the outer edge is a few
inches more aft than the inboard edge. Kinda "BatMan-like" - he placed sixth
in the races so I guess he knows what he's doing - he claims it results in
measurable speed increase. I don't understand the aerodynamics of this, but
he says that it controls air flow resulting in less drag. Your opinion?
John at Salida, CO
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Low Oil Temps |
--> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes <kempthornes@earthlink.net>
At 06:36 PM 11/22/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: N223RV@aol.com
>
>My RV-4 runs very cool, too cool. My CHT's are around 380-400 F Max, and my
>oil temp is only around 150F on a hot day.
My Lycoming handbook says for max service life CHT between 150F& 400F with
a max of 500F so you are okay.
Oil temp should run at 180F desired with max at 245F and the book says that
it should not be below 140F continous.
So, you have no problem!
No one has yet mentioned checking the temperature measurement system,
sender and gauge etc.
K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne
RV6-a N7HK - Three trips to OSH now.
PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA)
Message 15
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--> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
> A friend has a plane he races in the Reno Air Races (Formula V I believe)
> and he has modified his wing tips so that the aft edges, instead of being
> 'straight' now are curved into a 'curl' so that the outer edge is a few
> inches more aft than the inboard edge.
Aftward sweep of the trailing edge near the tip is usually employed to reduce
induced drag. It has a similar effect to the "tiplets" you see on some
airplanes. Reducing induced drag is very important in a race plane because it
reduced speed loss in the turns. It's also very helpful in a sailplane, where
you spend a lot of time near maximum L/D, making induced drag very significant.
On an RV, in typical use, you're only near maximum L/D when climbing. So you
might see a small increase in climb rate with modified tips, but you're not
likely to see much increase in cruise.
But if you're really keen on conserving energy in a dog fight, go for it!
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
Message 16
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" <stein@steinair.com>
This brings up one very good point. If you don't have an operators manual
for yor Lycoming, it is a very good investment - get one! They can be
purchased from several places like Chief Aircraft and ACS as well as good
old Textron. They sell for about $25.00 and are well worth the money.
I think everyone who is flying behind a Lyc should have an operators manual,
it states all the limits, temps, etc.. for your engine, as well as some high
level troubleshooting for it.
Just my 2 cents!
Stein Bruch
RV6's, Minneapolis (watching the runway get covered in snow)!
http://www.steinair.com
Do Not Archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of kempthornes
Subject: Re: RV-List: Low Oil Temps
--> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes <kempthornes@earthlink.net>
At 06:36 PM 11/22/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: N223RV@aol.com
>
>My RV-4 runs very cool, too cool. My CHT's are around 380-400 F Max, and
my
>oil temp is only around 150F on a hot day.
My Lycoming handbook says for max service life CHT between 150F& 400F with
a max of 500F so you are okay.
Oil temp should run at 180F desired with max at 245F and the book says that
it should not be below 140F continous.
So, you have no problem!
No one has yet mentioned checking the temperature measurement system,
sender and gauge etc.
K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne
RV6-a N7HK - Three trips to OSH now.
PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA)
Message 17
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--> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
John wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "John" <n1cxo320@salidaco.com>
>
>The discussion regarding wing tips brings to mind a question I have been
>pondering lately.
>
>A friend has a plane he races in the Reno Air Races (Formula V I believe)
>and he has modified his wing tips so that the aft edges, instead of being
>'straight' now are curved into a 'curl' so that the outer edge is a few
>inches more aft than the inboard edge. Kinda "BatMan-like" - he placed sixth
>in the races so I guess he knows what he's doing - he claims it results in
>measurable speed increase. I don't understand the aerodynamics of this, but
>he says that it controls air flow resulting in less drag. Your opinion?
>
>John at Salida, CO
>
I'm no aerodynamicist (nor do I play one on TV) but I'm going to throw
out a WAG. I'm thinking that the wing tip vortices are smoothed down a
little by the bat tip. A thin wing fence would also help, I'd guess.
Linn Walters
do not archive
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: wing spar c-sinking and dimpling |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell@telus.net>
Hi Scott,
I agree with Denis on this:
On looking at the pictures the first thing that I noticed was a not fully
formed dimple. If you are using a squeezer to form these dimples and getting
the results shown, squeeze harder. If they still don't form properly,
(squeezer jaw spreads) use a pneumatic squeezer with a strong jaw, it will
do the job when set up right.
If that option is not available to you get out the C Frame and beat them
dimples into submission.(;-)
To check for a correctly formed dimple use a straight edge across the center
of the dimple. No light or at the least very little light should show under
the straight edge on either side of the dimple itself. Most all the newbie's
I visit share this desire not to damage the aluminum by what they perceive
to be being abusive when forming dimples.
The dimple tool is designed to withstand a great deal of force. The aluminum
requires such force to be fully properly reformed into a dimple that will
drop into place, lay flat, work as designed and look right.
Happy bashing,
Jim in Kelowna
----- Original Message -----
From: "Denis Walsh" <denis.walsh@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: wing spar c-sinking
> --> RV-List message posted by: Denis Walsh <denis.walsh@comcast.net>
>
> Looks like your dimple is a little puffy. Pound it again. You really
need
> to smash those fellows. If the dimple is not pounded really hard, it
will
> neither nest in the countersink hole, nor allow the screw to sit flush.
>
> In any event, a slightly enlarged countersink hole in this area should do
> no harm, since the shear load is taken by the screw to dimple and through
> the nut plate to its rivets to the other skin.
>
>
> Hope this is helpful
>
> Denis
> > From: "" <tx_jayhawk@excite.com>
> > Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com
> > Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 11:04:12 -0500 (EST)
> > To: rv-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: RV-List: wing spar c-sinking
> >
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "" <tx_jayhawk@excite.com>
> >
> >
> > All,
> >
> > I am countersinking the wing spars, and I am concerned. I did a search
of the
> > archives, but didn't really get the assurance I was hoping for. Given
that
> > the spar is a pretty expensive part to screw up, I want to be extra
sure.
> > When c-sinking for the tank attach nutplate screws, the instructions say
to
> > use a piece of .032 dimpled to #8 to test for correct depth. You have to
> > remove a great deal of material to make this happen...is this normal?
The #30
> > c-sink will have long since bottomed out and made the hole bigger, and I
am
> > still not entirely flush. Pictures on the attached webpage...I would
> > appreciate any feedback.
> >
> > http://sky.prohosting.com/rv7a/spar1.htm
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Scott Haskins
> > RV7A wings
> >
> >
> > Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
> > The most personalized portal on the Web!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 19
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--> RV-List message posted by: RVer273sb@aol.com
Listers,
I have the following for sale.
I pair of uninstalled RV4 wingtips
One 540 engine driven hydraulic pump used
One wet lyc wet vacuum pump used
One lycoming 540 prop governor used
Make an offer
Stewart RV4
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: wing spar c-sinking |
--> RV-List message posted by: Graham Potts <graham@pncl.co.uk>
>#30 c-sink will have long since bottomed out and made the hole bigger, and I am
still not entirely flush.
>
You really need to be using the larger diameter countersink for that
job. The standard one will bottom out as you say and you will end up
going deeper while not getting any wider.... I think the one you want is
a 1/2" diameter countersink.
Graham
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: RV-List Digest: 16 Msgs - 11/21/03 |
--> RV-List message posted by: PSPRV6A@aol.com
Bolt diameters: We often call the -3 bolt a 3/16 bolt, but it is
really a machine screw whose NOMINAL diameter is .190. All bolts are made a
few
thousanths undersize so most of the time the -3 will fit in a 3/16 drilled
hole. I usually drill .189 which gives a nice fit and no assembly problems.
The definition of size on any machine screw is .060 plus .013 times the
number of the screw. For example, the basic size of a number 8 screw is:
.060+8X .013= .164
Don't ask me how I know! Paul S. Petersen, RV6A 90% done,
50% to go
Message 22
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| Subject: | wing spar c-sinking |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
I think Avery sells a CS made specifically for the wing spar task.
-
Larry Bowen
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Graham Potts [mailto:graham@pncl.co.uk]
> Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2003 2:35 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: wing spar c-sinking
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Graham Potts <graham@pncl.co.uk>
>
>
> >#30 c-sink will have long since bottomed out and made the
> hole bigger,
> >and I am still not entirely flush.
> >
>
> You really need to be using the larger diameter countersink for that
> job. The standard one will bottom out as you say and you will end up
> going deeper while not getting any wider.... I think the one
> you want is
> a 1/2" diameter countersink.
>
> Graham
Message 23
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--> RV-List message posted by: Boyd Braem <bcbraem@comcast.net>
He's talking about wing-tip vortexes(vortexi?), actually, vortices
(common use) which cause aerodynamic (induced--a function of amount of
lift) drag and is speed dependent (and, for a wing, actually,
angle-of-attack). Modifying the wing-tips changes the vortex to
increase/decrease the drag. In a turn, like going around a pylon, the
two wing-tips will have different drag profiles--so, for a Reno racer
you want to optimize your wings for the turn, since that's where the
drag bleeds off your speed the most.
That is also why you don't want to fly behind a fat, slow, heavy.
Pick up a copy of "Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators", it has a good
section on the topic.
Boyd.
do not archive
On Sunday, November 23, 2003, at 12:08 PM, John wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "John" <n1cxo320@salidaco.com>
>
> The discussion regarding wing tips brings to mind a question I have
> been
> pondering lately.
>
> A friend has a plane he races in the Reno Air Races (Formula V I
> believe)
> and he has modified his wing tips so that the aft edges, instead of
> being
> 'straight' now are curved into a 'curl' so that the outer edge is a few
> inches more aft than the inboard edge. Kinda "BatMan-like" - he placed
> sixth
> in the races so I guess he knows what he's doing - he claims it
> results in
> measurable speed increase. I don't understand the aerodynamics of
> this, but
> he says that it controls air flow resulting in less drag. Your opinion?
>
> John at Salida, CO
>
>
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> >
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | LOW OIL TEMP ON RV-4 |
--> RV-List message posted by: bruno <rv4@videotron.ca>
Hello Joe
I'm in the same boat as you, my oil cooler is way too
effective.I went flying yesterday (Oil cooler not block yet ) and I could
barely get the oil temp above 110/120.The EGT/CHT are in the normal range.
I built a blocking plate today that I'm going to try next time
I go flying.I hope it will be good enough.
Let me know if you come up with something that work.
Cheers
Bruno Dionne
RV-4 C-GDBH
----
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: wing spar c-sinking |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" <bo124rs@hotmail.com>
>From: "Ron Walker" <ron@walker.net>
>
>Looks to me like you are doing fine. Pretty much everyone is concerned at
>the size of the c-sink required. Yours is looking good! Keep it up. One
>thing that I did though was to c-sink the rivet holes of the nutplates
>first, then rivet the nutplates on, *then* c-sink the screw hole. The
>nutplate keeps the c-sink centered in the hole.
>
Scott just a second to ease your mind, those countersink holes will enlarge
quite a bit. I did the same as Ron. The countersink will "find" the
nutplate and smooth everything out nicely. Keep it up.
Dana Overall
Richmond, KY
RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic"
Finish kit
Buying Instruments. Hangar flying my Dynon.
http://rvflying.tripod.com
do not archive
>From: "Ron Walker" <ron@walker.net>
>
>Looks to me like you are doing fine. Pretty much everyone is concerned at
>the size of the c-sink required. Yours is looking good! Keep it up. One
>thing that I did though was to c-sink the rivet holes of the nutplates
>first, then rivet the nutplates on, *then* c-sink the screw hole. The
>nutplate keeps the c-sink centered in the hole.
>
Share holiday photos without swamping your Inbox. Get MSN Extra Storage
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: wing spar c-sinking |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" <bo124rs@hotmail.com>
Sorry for the additional post but as Graham said, use a 1/2 wide countersink
that has the #30 pilot.
Dana Overall
Richmond, KY
RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic"
Finish kit
Buying Instruments. Hangar flying my Dynon.
http://rvflying.tripod.com
do not archive
Set yourself up for fun at home! Get tips on home entertainment equipment,
video game reviews, and more here.
http://special.msn.com/home/homeent.armx
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Drill Size??? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Gil Alexander <gilalex@earthlink.net>
Guys, This is a quick exercise in tolerances...
An AN3 bolt has a diameter of 0.186 to 0.189
Full dimensional info is
here http://exp-aircraft.com/library/alexande/hardware.html
The maximum diameter (0.0189) is exactly a #12 drill... but if you want a
nice slip fit, it would be better to drill to #13 and then ream to #12. Do
this, and you will have a nice, satisfying bolt fit, and a sturdy a joint
as you can make it.
For AN4 bolts, the diameter is 0.246 to 0.249 inches.
I prefer to drill with a letter D, and then ream to 0.249 .... if you go to
a commercial tool supply place, they can order reamers in a diameter you
want, and a couple of reamers are not expensive.
I would recommend all builders buy #12 and 0.249 reamers, and use them
for final hole sizing for all bolts. The extra effort is pretty minimal,
and the holes do look a lot nicer... a quick look at the inside of a hole
drilled to final size with a hand drill, and one reamed to size is quite
informative. I have found a cordless drill good to use for reaming since
they usually have slower speeds, which seems to work better.
gil in Tucson
Drill size info. is here.... http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-drillsize.htm
At 10:26 AM 11/21/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "DAVID REEL" <dreel@cox.net>
>
>The right drill size to use depends on what goes in the hole. For
>example, a 3/16 drill is nominally .1875 inches in diameter. But AN3
>bolts have some variance in size between individual bolts, and usually
>increase in diameter a little as you move up the shank and get close to
>the head. I have found that some bolts will slip right into a 3/16 inch
>hole whereas some bind up. In the latter case, using a #12 drill which is
>nominally .1890 inches in diameter, eliminates the problem. So, Van's
>advice to drill all holes with a #12 makes sense since it increases the
>chances that any bolt will go in any hole. Unless you are using precision
>bolts, as are used in the wing spar, there is little benefit to reaming
>standard bolt holes as the variation in bolt diameter defeats the goal of
>achieving a close, and therefore long lived, fit. The kit is engineered
>with standard construction practices in mind so there's no need to
>lengthen build times by making beautiful holes. But, if !
>you get pleasure from the way a bolt slides into a precisely fitting hole
>with just a little friction telling you the fit is fine, well then, enjoy.
>
>Dave Reel - RV8A
>
>
RV-6A, #20701 .. fitting out firewall...
77 Tiger N28478 at 57AZ
Message 28
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Norman Hunger" <nhunger@sprint.ca>
Not reading the list real time these days but scanning it about two months behind.
I have how ever been reading it for quite a few years though and I've seen
the cheap strobe subject come up many times. I thought I'd speak up on this one
to put forth my opinion that the cheap strobes designed for emergency ground
vehicles are next to USELESS in aircraft. They are not bright enough. I've had
the good fortune in my career to test many different types of strobes and I've
used this experience to form this strong opinion.
Ground vehicle strobes are purposely not as bright as aviation strobes because
if they were they would blind motorists on dark and rainy nights. They are designed
to be in your scope of vision, aviation strobes are designed to be noticed
from your peripheral vision from much further away. That is a big difference.
Vehicle strobes are typically giving warning to other vehicles that are within
1/4 mile from the source. That's not good enough for aircraft. We need them
to be seen from several miles away. Some one is now sure to pipe up that they
have seen police strobes two miles down the highway so I'll point out that
you were probably looking directly down that straight, level highway. How noticeable
do you feel they would be at four miles off your two o'clock? If you are
on a converging flightpath, you would want them to be noticeable from at least
four miles.
An interesting turn of my career this year involved spending over $40k building
some modern LED police light bars. I tested LED's from several manufactures after
spending considerable effort researching who had the brightest LED's. I tested
quite a few and found that they are very directional. They can be made with
a wide beam or a narrow beam. Going with a wide beam sacrifices brightness
at distance. I ended up purchasing 6000 of what I considered to be the brightest.
To cover 90 degrees of vision, they have to be splayed or fanned out so that
even if you have a panel of 40 LEDs, you will only see a minority of them
when a long distance away from them. When left in a flat panel, they were useless
for the task of a police light bar. When seen from outside their beam they
appear to turn off.
The best thing about LEDs is their low power draw. The second best thing is their
cool operating temperature. The third is that they last for a very long time.
Sadly, I feel that to do a good job in an aircraft, one would need to use a
huge panel (100+) of the best available LEDs. By the way, the good ones are not
cheap and you still need to build a board to get them to fire. I am not convinced
that LEDs are bright enough to substitute for strobes. Position lights
are a different story and I do not have a strong opinion. I would like to see
a useful experiment done by a group of RV's equipped with different lights. Fly
them in trail and photograph (still and video) them from a mile away. I would
love to see the results. Would very much like to see how the new LED position
lights stack up against the conventional Whelen halogen position lights
This is only my opinion but I feel that I have played with more lighting than most
amateur aircraft builders. I feel that the best anti collision lighting we
can put on our homebuilds are the highest wattage strobes available. Again, sadly,
they aren't cheap. If you are researching strobes with the intention to
be as noticeable as possible, seek the highest wattage output on your power supply.
The cheap ones are no good on airplanes.
I wonder if I'll need a flame suit for this one. I certainly am not intending to
slam new technology, just exercising my right to express my own opinion on aircraft
anti-collision strobes - NOT POSITION LIGHTS.
A quick word on the new technology of HID landing lights. They are worth the money.
If you want better and are willing to spend the money, they rule.
PS - new technology in lighting is coming out all the time and I won't claim to
be up on every last thing out there. I noticed that for the first time an auto
manufactor is using LEDs for headlights. Check out the new 610hp Audi Le Mans.
It has headlights made up of 17 LEDs per side. I wonder who developed the bulbs
and where we could get a few to test. They must be good as this car is designed
to be the fastest production car available.
Norman Hunger
RV6A Delta BC
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: wing spar c-sinking |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Shreyans Shah" <sshah@shreyans.info>
Hi Scott,
I am as novice as one gets - first time builder working on the wings who
just countersunk the holes you are doing. So just offering my views, not an
expert advice. Looking at the picture on your website of the screw placed in
the countersunk hole, it does look to me like you are already going a little
too deep. I made my dimple sample using pneumatic squeezer and then
countersunk (using #30 csunk cutter) all the #8 holes so that it would just
fit the dimple smoothly & flatly. I tested the holes with the screw and it
doesn't go as deep as yours. I cross-checked my holes against the pictures
on other people's site (couple of them I rememer were Chris Heitman's site -
http://my.execpc.com/%7Ecjh/csink.html and Sam Morning's -
http://www.rv-9a.com/wings/wingimages/spar1.JPG) and it looked identical so
I am guessing I did it right. If I did it right, I don't know what's causing
you to go so deep - too thick dimple sample material, improper dimple,
dimple sample not flat?? but I would look into it before continuing. I don't
claim I'm right, just relating my experience.
Shreyans
----- Original Message -----
From: <tx_jayhawk@excite.com>
Subject: RV-List: wing spar c-sinking
> --> RV-List message posted by: "" <tx_jayhawk@excite.com>
>
>
> All,
>
> I am countersinking the wing spars, and I am concerned. I did a search of
the archives, but didn't really get the assurance I was hoping for. Given
that the spar is a pretty expensive part to screw up, I want to be extra
sure. When c-sinking for the tank attach nutplate screws, the instructions
say to use a piece of .032 dimpled to #8 to test for correct depth. You have
to remove a great deal of material to make this happen...is this normal?
The #30 c-sink will have long since bottomed out and made the hole bigger,
and I am still not entirely flush. Pictures on the attached webpage...I
would appreciate any feedback.
>
> http://sky.prohosting.com/rv7a/spar1.htm
>
> Thanks,
> Scott Haskins
> RV7A wings
>
>
> Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
> The most personalized portal on the Web!
>
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: LOW OIL TEMP ON RV-4 |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
>Hello Joe
> I'm in the same boat as you, my oil cooler is way too
>effective.I went flying yesterday (Oil cooler not block yet ) and I could
>barely get the oil temp above 110/120.The EGT/CHT are in the normal range.
> I built a blocking plate today that I'm going to try next
>time
>I go flying.I hope it will be good enough.
>
> Let me know if you come up with something that work.
>
>Cheers
>
>Bruno Dionne
>RV-4 C-GDBH
I have the same "problem" (which ISN'T during the summer!) . I simply
install a plate across the face of the cooler (seven row Niagara) that
covers 1/2 of it. I do this during the seasonal oil change to lighter weight
oil. It helps get the oil temp up to the 180's unless it's really cold
outside. A variable sliding plate or gate of some sort that is cockpit
controllable would be the best setup for year-round RV'ing.
Brian Denk
RV8 N94BD
Albuquerque, NM and yes, it DOES get cold down here!
Gift-shop online from the comfort of home at MSN Shopping! No crowds, free
parking. http://shopping.msn.com
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: wing spar c-sinking |
--> RV-List message posted by: Dwight Frye <dwight@openweave.org>
Just to add another data point ... I did the same thing as is reported here
by Ron, and it worked great. It frightened the hell out of me the first few
large countersinks I cut, but in the end it worked flawlessly.
I will warn you that there is a period during the cutting where you have
enlarged the hole on the far side of the spar enough that the pilot has room
to move, but you are not down good into the platenut yet. During this period
you will get chatter ... and if you stop there you will have an really *ugly*
countersink. Go a bit further and let the pilot re-center in the platenut,
and it suddenly smooths out and you get a nice cut.
Also, I found it worked best to turn the countersink cutter with my electric
drill set on "low" (which is normally used for driving screws). Works great
with no chatter.
-- Dwight
On Sun Nov 23 11:50:32 2003, Ron Walker wrote :
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Ron Walker" <ron@walker.net>
>
>Looks to me like you are doing fine. Pretty much everyone is concerned at
>the size of the c-sink required. Yours is looking good! Keep it up. One
>thing that I did though was to c-sink the rivet holes of the nutplates
>first, then rivet the nutplates on, *then* c-sink the screw hole. The
>nutplate keeps the c-sink centered in the hole.
>
>Ron
Message 32
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| Subject: | RV-6A AOG SFM Sanford, Maine USA |
--> RV-List message posted by: "RV6 Flyer" <rv6_flyer@hotmail.com>
AOG = Aircraft On Ground that requires part to repair a problem
Just got off the phone with Paul and Victoria Rosales. Sounds like they had
an oil line, fitting, or oil cooler develop a crack and dump about quart
of oil all over the firewall and underside of their airplane.
Paul is looking for any builder / flyer in the area that may be able to help
out with an oil cooler, fittings, or oil line. I gave him several phone
numbers from the White Pages of aircraft in Maine and New Hampshire.
If you can help, email me off list at: rv6_flyer_AT_hotmail.com and I will
furnish you Pauls Cell phone or call him with your number. Remember to
change the _AT_ in the email address to @.
Thanks,
Gary A. Sobek
"My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell,
1,399 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA
http://SoCAL_WVAF.rvproject.com
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Share holiday photos without swamping your Inbox. Get MSN Extra Storage
Message 33
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| Subject: | Rosales RV-6A AOG SFM Sanford, Maine USA |
--> RV-List message posted by: RGray67968@aol.com
Gary and all,
Got a call from Paul as well. Help is on the way!!!! Was able to contact one
of our good RV friends in Maine, Nick Knobil. He contacted Carl Beatrice just
who keeps his RV6A at the Sanford airport. Turns out that Carl knows Paul and
will be able to handle the mechanical problem. Matter of fact.........Paul and
Victoria will be spending tomorrow night at Carls house...........RV'ers are
awesome!!
Thanks to all.
Rick Gray in Ohio at the Buffalo Farm
AOG = Aircraft On Ground that requires part to repair a problem
Just got off the phone with Paul and Victoria Rosales. Sounds like they had
an oil line, fitting, or oil cooler develop a crack and dump about quart
of oil all over the firewall and underside of their airplane.
Paul is looking for any builder / flyer in the area that may be able to help
out with an oil cooler, fittings, or oil line. I gave him several phone
numbers from the White Pages of aircraft in Maine and New Hampshire.
If you can help, email me off list at: rv6_flyer_AT_hotmail.com and I will
furnish you Pauls Cell phone or call him with your number. Remember to
change the _AT_ in the email address to @.
Thanks,
Gary A. Sobek
"My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell,
1,399 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA
http://SoCAL_WVAF.rvproject.com
Message 34
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"RV Matronics List" <rv-list@matronics.com>
| Subject: | Water-borne and Solvent-based Paint Compatability (long) |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Douglas A. Fischer" <dfischer@iserv.net>
I am building an RV-9A and have just finished with the Emp. I am priming the insides
using the AFS water-borne Primer/Sealer AFS PN 7050. About a month ago
there were some postings that seemed to say that the water-borne primers were
not compatible when painting over it with solvent-based primer and color coats
and the water stuff would lift. The postings said that the AFS would or may
have to be removed in any areas (emp tips and rear spar) that would eventually
get solvent-based exterior treatments or at least that is the impression I was
left with.
That not sounding like tons of fun, I wondered if the primer/sealer was like latex
house paint (i.e. water washes it out until it dries and then it is impervious
to water) so I decided to run an experiment. Someone else somewhere might
get different results, but these are mine so add this to the collection of opinions.
I primed four pieces of scrap elevator trim skin when finishing up my
elevator parts. A friend at work painted my samples using Automotive PPG DBC
Color coat with Matrix MS20 Clear and painted one side only of each of the samples.
To make it worse case, the AFS primer/sealer wasn't scuffed or prepped
in any way - not even primed. He said if the solvent base was incompatible
with the water-borne, it would lift up within minutes.
The AFS stuff had no problem accepting the solvent-based color and clear. No lifting
or flaws anywhere - it looked beautiful. Not merely being happy with those
results, I decided to take it further and place the samples in an environmental
chamber at work to give it an even more severe test. The chamber is set
up on a continuous six-phase, seven-day cycle as follows:
Phase 1 24 hrs at -30C (-22F) 0% humidity
Phase 2 24 hrs at +38C (+100.4F) 95% hum.
Phase 3 24 hrs at +83C (+181.4F) 0% hum.
Phase 4 24 hrs at -40C (-40F) 0% hum.
Phase 5 24 hrs at +38 C (+100.4F) 95% hum.
Phase 6 48 hrs at +82C (+179.6F) 0% hum.
I let the parts sit in the chamber for two complete cycles (two weeks). They came
out looking just as good as they did before going in. No peeling, lifting,
or anything else. Both the painted side as well as the side that was exposed
Primer/Sealer were unscathed. The lab tech said the time I left them in would
simulate at least ten to fifteen years in the field.
My conclusion is that I'm going to continue to use the easy-to-use AFS Primer/Sealer
and have no worries whatsoever about painting over any AFS-primed areas
when it comes time to paint the exterior with a solvent-based paint system (though
I intend to use primer before the color).
Just my opinion based on my results. Your mileage may vary, etc. I know this
info would have been worthwhile to me if someone had posted it before now so I
hope it helps someone.
Doug Fischer
RV-9A Emp done, Wings on order
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Wing Tips (long) |
--> RV-List message posted by: LeastDrag93066@aol.com
Hi All,
I have discussed this subject with a Reno race pilot who had actually tuff
tested the RV-4 wing with the "standard" RV-4 wingtips, and with wingtips
"similar" to Van's sheared wingtips. (John Harmon with the Harmon Rocket 3. John's
HR2 and HR3 have the "Hot Tips", which are similar to Van's sheared wingtips.)
With the standard wingtip, there was disturbed airflow across the top of the
wing from near the leading edge of the wingtip to the wing trailing edge at
the center of the aileron.
(Please read disturbed airflow as increased drag, decreased lift and reduced
aileron effectiveness.)
The wingtips tested that were similar to Van's sheared wingtips had disturbed
airflow only in the last two inches of the wingtip at the trailing edge.
I talked to Van's people, and was also told that their sheared wingtip didn't
provide any performance improvement. Van's sheared wingtips appear identical
to the wingtips tested with the exception of one key feature.
Tracy Saylor has the "Hot Tip" wingtips on his RV-6. He observed a 2 mph
increase in top speed and a three mph decrease in stall speed.
A Harmon Rocket 2 owner installed the "Hot Tips" and reported no change in
performance. I observed that in his installation of the "Hot Tips" wingtips, he
had removed the key feature that allows the wingtips to function properly.
(Massey Aircraft Services is the manufacturer. Their website is
http://www.masseyaircraftservice.com/
Please contact them directly, if you are interested. I don't need to be
involved.)
I have a set of "Hot Tip" wingtips for my RV-3. (The "slight" modification
from a set of RV-4 wingtips was very expensive.) I don't have them installed
yet. I need to finish my performance testing on my RV-3 before I make any
changes. (January?)
I am doing performance testing with a RV-6A builder. He has a set of Van's
sheared wingtips. He has already added the key feature onto Van's wingtip.
However, we need to finish the performance testing before he can make any
changes to his aircraft. (Like installing different wingtips.)
Before I forget, the key feature on the "Hot Tips" wingtips (that is not on
Van's sheared wingtips) is a straight sharp edge. This forms an airflow
parting line along the wingtip, so the air on the bottom of the wingtip stays on
the
bottom. Basically, a vortex cutter.
Unfortunately, Van's sheared wingtips don't have a straight parting line on
the edge of the wingtip. You'll need to make your own straight line to
eliminate the parting line joggle.
Jim Ayers
Less Drag Products, Inc.
(My only association with Massey Aircraft Services is as a customer.)
Message 36
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| Subject: | LOW OIL TEMP ON RV-4 |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
Shouldn't a vernitherm accomplish the same temperature control you are
looking for? Or do you guys already have one and it's not working, or I
misunderstand the benefit of the vernithrm, or .....
-
Larry Bowen
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
Do not archive
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Denk [mailto:akroguy@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2003 4:41 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: LOW OIL TEMP ON RV-4
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
>
> >Hello Joe
> > I'm in the same boat as you, my oil cooler is way too
> >effective.I went flying yesterday (Oil cooler not block yet ) and I
> >could barely get the oil temp above 110/120.The EGT/CHT are
> in the normal range.
> > I built a blocking plate today that I'm going to try
> >next
> >time
> >I go flying.I hope it will be good enough.
> >
> > Let me know if you come up with something that work.
> >
> >Cheers
> >
> >Bruno Dionne
> >RV-4 C-GDBH
>
> I have the same "problem" (which ISN'T during the summer!) .
> I simply
> install a plate across the face of the cooler (seven row
> Niagara) that
> covers 1/2 of it. I do this during the seasonal oil change to
> lighter weight
> oil. It helps get the oil temp up to the 180's unless it's
> really cold
> outside. A variable sliding plate or gate of some sort that
> is cockpit
> controllable would be the best setup for year-round RV'ing.
>
> Brian Denk
> RV8 N94BD
> Albuquerque, NM and yes, it DOES get cold down here!
Message 37
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| Subject: | LOW OIL TEMP ON RV-4 |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
>
>Shouldn't a vernitherm accomplish the same temperature control you are
>looking for? Or do you guys already have one and it's not working, or I
>misunderstand the benefit of the vernithrm, or .....
>
>-
>Larry Bowen
Yes, and no...sorta. The vernatherm isn't a snap action flow switch, it has
a gradual movement as it heats up. So, when it starts moving to allow flow
to the oil cooler (at less than optimal temperature), by blanking off part
of the cooler, it strips less heat away from the oil and allows the temp to
come up closer to the 180 we commonly accept as a nice place to be to keep
our Lycosaurs grunting and growling.
I helped a -6A friend of mine years ago with a suspected Vernatherm problem,
and we tested a known good unit by gradually heating it. It just started
changing length, in proportion to heat applied. This is unlike the
thermistat in a car, which is a snap action valve. Once you get up to it's
setpoint, it snaps open and you get full flow to the radiator.
Hope this helps,(and is somewhat accurate!).
Brian Denk
RV8 N94BD
Gift-shop online from the comfort of home at MSN Shopping! No crowds, free
parking. http://shopping.msn.com
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: LOW OIL TEMP ON RV-4 |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Pat Hatch" <pat_hatch@msn.com>
Larry,
Seems that the vernatherm will always route some oil through the cooler no
matter how cold the temp. I guess this a fail safe function--I've never
heard how much but I'm guessing about 10-20%, and it is this 10-20% that can
cause a problem in the winter.
Pat Hatch
RV-4
RV-6
RV-7 QB (Building)
Vero Beach, FL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@bowenaero.com>
Subject: RE: RV-List: LOW OIL TEMP ON RV-4
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
>
> Shouldn't a vernitherm accomplish the same temperature control you are
> looking for? Or do you guys already have one and it's not working, or I
> misunderstand the benefit of the vernithrm, or .....
>
> -
> Larry Bowen
> Larry@BowenAero.com
> http://BowenAero.com
> Do not archive
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Brian Denk [mailto:akroguy@hotmail.com]
> > Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2003 4:41 PM
> > To: rv-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: RV-List: LOW OIL TEMP ON RV-4
> >
> >
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
> >
> > >Hello Joe
> > > I'm in the same boat as you, my oil cooler is way too
> > >effective.I went flying yesterday (Oil cooler not block yet ) and I
> > >could barely get the oil temp above 110/120.The EGT/CHT are
> > in the normal range.
> > > I built a blocking plate today that I'm going to try
> > >next
> > >time
> > >I go flying.I hope it will be good enough.
> > >
> > > Let me know if you come up with something that work.
> > >
> > >Cheers
> > >
> > >Bruno Dionne
> > >RV-4 C-GDBH
> >
> > I have the same "problem" (which ISN'T during the summer!) .
> > I simply
> > install a plate across the face of the cooler (seven row
> > Niagara) that
> > covers 1/2 of it. I do this during the seasonal oil change to
> > lighter weight
> > oil. It helps get the oil temp up to the 180's unless it's
> > really cold
> > outside. A variable sliding plate or gate of some sort that
> > is cockpit
> > controllable would be the best setup for year-round RV'ing.
> >
> > Brian Denk
> > RV8 N94BD
> > Albuquerque, NM and yes, it DOES get cold down here!
>
>
Message 39
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| Subject: | Low Oil Temps / cooler condensation? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "GMC" <gmcnutt@intergate.ca>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Low Oil Temps
--> RV-List message posted by: Lenleg@aol.com
After what happened to me ... I would be very concerned about getting the
oil
temp up to at least a high enought temp to burn off any condensation.
I was planning a trip to see Mike Stewart last winter for the formation
clinic in Atlanta. Got out to the hanger on a very cold day. We had just
experienced an ice storm ... ice still covering the ground.
Cranked the engine ... oil pressure dropped and oil was everywhere!! I had
been having trouble getting the oil temps up during cold weather. I have
the
large Niagara oil cooler. Works great in the hot summers but could only get
the oil temp to 140-150 degrees in the winter. It is my understanding that
you
have to get to at least 180 to burn off any condensation.
The problem turned out to be the oil cooler ... one or more of the inner
tubes had burst. Condensation had formed in the oil ... stopped in the thin
walled aluminum tubes in the cooler and froze in the cold weather ... burst
!!!
It makes a big mess on your plane .. on the ground ... cancel big plans for
formation flying .... but thank goodness it happened on the ground and not
in
the air.
I started blocking off the back of the cooler with a plate for winter
flying.
It works great for getting my temps up. The only problem is fall and
spring
when the temp outside varies and you don't know when to put on and when to
take off. I am in the process of putting my plate on a hinge so that I can
control it from the cockpit.
Good luck ... hope to make it Mike Stearts formation clinic this year !!!!!
Len Leggette, RV-8A
Greensboro, NC N910LL
168 hrs
Hi Len
How long did your engine run before the cooler burst, what was OAT and what
oil?
On our Lycomings the oil pressure relief valve is downstream from the oil
cooler, there is either a spring loaded oil cooler by-pass valve or a
optional thermostatic by-pass valve (vernatherm) which can route oil past
the cooler when cold or through the cooler when hot.
If your oil cooler by-pass system was (still is?) malfunctioning you may
have pumped much higher than normal pressure into the oil cooler causing it
to burst, this pressure would not show up on the downstream oil pressure
gauge. I cannot understand having that much moisture in a oil cooler, even
with your 140 - 150 temps, did you find any evidence of water in the cooler?
If you have a vernatherm and it is inoperative you may be routing all the
oil through the cooler all the time resulting in your lower than normal
operating temperatures.
My 6A with front mounted cooler with vernatherm runs 170F oil temps summer &
winter.
Off subject but - Many years ago I flew a Cessna 180 in Edmonton winters, it
was often -20 or -30F overnight and the snow made crunchy noises when you
walked on it. Anyway the aircraft oil would get as thick as honey and refuse
to drip off the dipstick. After the engine was warmed then started &
thoroughly warmed up I always checked that the vernatherm valve had opened
and oil was flowing through the oil cooler. This required shutting the
engine down and checking the oil cooler by hand to make sure the cooler was
warm.
In really cold weather departing before warm oil is flowing through the oil
cooler can cause the oil to congeal and when the vernatherm try's to route
oil through the cooler it is unable, usually this means the aircraft
returning after 15 minutes with high oil temperature (another reason to put
your blocking plate or duct tape on the front of a front mounted cooler).
George McNutt
Langley, BC
We don't get crunchy snow here in Langley!
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