Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:39 AM - Re: Wanted: Fiberglass 101 Video (Aircraft Technical Book Company)
2. 08:21 AM - Re: Pre-owned tools for sale? (David Burton)
3. 08:44 AM - When the vibration stops (Jim Nolan)
4. 09:02 AM - deburring in impossible places (RV8ter@aol.com)
5. 09:14 AM - Re: deburring in impossible places (Jim Daniels)
6. 09:56 AM - Re: Pre-owned tools for sale? (kempthornes)
7. 10:57 AM - Re: Pre-owned tools for sale? (Randy Richter)
8. 11:20 AM - Re: deburring in impossible places (Paul Besing)
9. 11:38 AM - Re: deburring in impossible places (Brian Denk)
10. 11:59 AM - Kitty Hawk Lodging Available - OFF TOPIC (Todd Wenzel)
11. 12:02 PM - Re: deburring in impossible places (lucky macy)
12. 12:13 PM - Please Support Your Email Lists... (Matt Dralle)
13. 12:27 PM - Re: When the vibration stops (Kevin Horton)
14. 12:51 PM - Re: When the vibration stops (Jerry Springer)
15. 01:03 PM - Large Scale RC model (Rick Galati)
16. 01:54 PM - Re: deburring in impossible places (Stein Bruch)
17. 04:27 PM - Re: Rv-list spark Plugs (Joe Hine)
18. 04:36 PM - Re: deburring in impossible places (Elsa & Henry)
19. 05:41 PM - Re: Wright Flyer down. (Randy Compton)
20. 06:33 PM - Re: Wright Flyer down. (linn walters)
21. 06:52 PM - Re: Wright Flyer down. (Phat Phil)
22. 07:25 PM - Re: Wright Flyer down. (Bill VonDane)
23. 08:25 PM - Really long winded Icing dribble, was : When the vibration stops (Doug Rozendaal)
24. 11:08 PM - Re: Wright Flyer down. (Karie Daniel)
25. 11:37 PM - Re: Really long winded Icing dribble, was : When the vibration stops (Boyd Braem)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Wanted: Fiberglass 101 Video |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Aircraft Technical Book Company" <winterland@rkymtnhi.com>
In stock at Builder's Bookstore in the composites section.
Andy
www.buildersbooks.com
800 780-4115
>
> Anybody got a new/used copy of the "FIBERGLASS 101" video by Sam James
they no longer need and would like to sell?
>
> Please contact me offlist at: rvbuilder@att.net with information.
>
> Thank you,
> Jack
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Pre-owned tools for sale? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "David Burton" <dburton@nwlink.com>
> All, since I recently bought the -7QB kit, it strikes me that I'll need
> to buy some tools to build the silly thing. Details!
>
> So, are there any of you who have completed your aerospace vehicles
> willing to part with some or all of the tools you used? I know there are
> several retailers who offer (relatively) complete kits for various
> models of RV, and I may actually get one if it turns out that ALL of you
> want to keep ALL of your tools because ALL of you want to become repeat
> offenders. Who knows? I may, too!
Hi Randy,
You may find someone who started building and quit who wants to sell their
tools. I'm not sure how many builders who completed a plane would want to
sell. Seems like you need the capability to repair and modify your plane
and still need the tools...
You might check out Mike Stewart's website and look at "tools needed". It's
a good list of required, nice to have and great if money is no object:
http://www.mstewart.net/michael/rv/
In addition to Avery and Cleveland, also check out "The Yard" They have
lots of used and new aviation surplus:
http://yardstore.com/
Also:
http://www.planetools.com/New4default.htm
and a huge list:
http://www.homebuilt.org/vendors/p&e/tools.html
Deals on some things can be found on ebay too.
Good luck!
When you are tired of shopping for tools:
http://www.uss-bennington.org/hu-aviationtools.html
Message 3
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| Subject: | When the vibration stops |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Nolan" <jamespnolan@earthlink.net>
Listers,
Just got in from Fort Worth via an all night stay at Terre Haute. I left
Mt. Vernon (MVN) on the way to Warsaw in 2000 ft. ceilings and reported ice
from 4-6000 ft. I filed IFR at 3000 because that's as low as they would give
me, and climbing on top would have put me in ice for longer than I wanted to
be. Twelve miles north of Terre Haute my airspeed indicator went to zero. I
told Terra Haute I wanted to spend the night with them. I received radar
vectors to HUF started to 1500 ft , made the turn south and the engine quit
when I reduced power. I had carb heat on and throttle full open, I had to
jockey the mixture at the full lean position. I pulsed the engine for eight
miles. These RVs take very little power to keep them afloat. Finally the
engine would take a richer mixture and started running OK as I got to the
airport. Made a good landing and approach thanked me for not making them do
a lot of paperwork. My controller at Terre Haute talked to me continually
and indicated places to sit down if I had too, he was a Godsend.
Chad Williams and the guys at the Flight Center put my RV4 in a heated
hanger to let the ice melt off last night.
Last night it dawned on me that a lot of you listers probably have the
same carb heat set-up that I do. You use a heat muff around the pipes to get
cabin heat and carb heat. IF YOU GET CARB ICE, TURN THE CABIN HEAT OFF WHILE
YOU'RE TRYING TO GET YOUR ENGINE TO RUN AGAIN. I didn't think of this until
last night in the motel room. ALSO, WHEN THEY SAY ICE, THEY MEAN ICE. I
didn't have pitot heat because I wasn't going to be foolish enough to fly in
icing conditions, RIGHT!
Jim Nolan
N444JN
Older and Wiser
Message 4
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| Subject: | deburring in impossible places |
--> RV-List message posted by: RV8ter@aol.com
I need a different approach to deburring areas like the underside of the
floor board ribs for the platenuts and pop rivets. My way is taking forever since
I can't use my normal deburring tools.
What other methods are folks using?
thanks,
lucky
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: deburring in impossible places |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Daniels <jwdanie@comcast.net>
On Nov 29, 2003, at 10:02 AM, RV8ter@aol.com wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: RV8ter@aol.com
>
> I need a different approach to deburring areas like the underside of
> the
> floor board ribs for the platenuts and pop rivets. My way is taking
> forever since
> I can't use my normal deburring tools.
>
> What other methods are folks using?
>
> thanks,
> lucky
I'm using my right angle drill adapter. The debur bit threads into the
adapter and then I bought a knurled knob at radio shack to turn the
shaft. Works great. For really difficult places, I just use a small
flat needle file.
Jim Daniels
http://home.comcast.net/~jwdanie/
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Pre-owned tools for sale? |
--> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes <kempthornes@earthlink.net>
Randy,
One of the most useful tools is the RV List. I guess you know that by
now. You will find it more valuable than some of the so called required
tools.
Make a donation to Matronics so we can keep it going. It will be better
money spent than a rivet fan.
K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne
RV6-a N7HK - Three trips to OSH now.
PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA)
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Pre-owned tools for sale? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Randy Richter <richterrbb@earthlink.net>
Already did, so I'm on Matt's good side! :-D
And you're absolutely right about the list.
Thanks for the response!
Do not archive.
Randy
-7QB in hibernation
kempthornes wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes <kempthornes@earthlink.net>
>
>Randy,
>
>One of the most useful tools is the RV List. I guess you know that by
>now. You will find it more valuable than some of the so called required
>tools.
>
>Make a donation to Matronics so we can keep it going. It will be better
>money spent than a rivet fan.
>
>
>K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne
>RV6-a N7HK - Three trips to OSH now.
>PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA)
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: deburring in impossible places |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Paul Besing" <azpilot@extremezone.com>
Use emery cloth.
Paul Besing
RV-6A Sold
RV-10 Soon
http://www.lacodeworks.com/besing
Kitlog Pro Builder's Log Software
http://www.kitlog.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <RV8ter@aol.com>
Subject: RV-List: deburring in impossible places
> --> RV-List message posted by: RV8ter@aol.com
>
> I need a different approach to deburring areas like the underside of the
> floor board ribs for the platenuts and pop rivets. My way is taking
forever since
> I can't use my normal deburring tools.
>
> What other methods are folks using?
>
> thanks,
> lucky
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: deburring in impossible places |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
>Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 13:20:00 -0600
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Paul Besing" <azpilot@extremezone.com>
>
>Use emery cloth.
>
>Paul Besing
>RV-6A Sold
>RV-10 Soon
>http://www.lacodeworks.com/besing
>Kitlog Pro Builder's Log Software
>http://www.kitlog.com
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <RV8ter@aol.com>
>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RV-List: deburring in impossible places
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: RV8ter@aol.com
> >
> > I need a different approach to deburring areas like the underside of the
> > floor board ribs for the platenuts and pop rivets. My way is taking
>forever since
> > I can't use my normal deburring tools.
> >
> > What other methods are folks using?
> >
> > thanks,
> > lucky
Or, drag a flat file along the underside of the those ribs to knock off the
chunks. Scotchbrite pads work too.
Brian Denk
RV8 N94BD
RV10 51
Need a shot of Hank Williams or Patsy Cline? The classic country stars are
always singing on MSN Radio Plus. Try one month free!
Message 10
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|
| Subject: | Kitty Hawk Lodging Available - OFF TOPIC |
FOR_JUST_SOME_AMT 0.20,
ONLY_COST.0.21@matronics.com, SPAM_PHRASE_00_01.0.78@matronics.com
--> RV-List message posted by: "Todd Wenzel" <TWenzel@Heartland-Software.com>
Hello All,
I have some nice lodging space available during the week of celebration
at Kitty Hawk for the centennial of powered flight - it's only 1-2 miles
away from the main activities. Available 12/13-12/19 for only $300! If
you are interested please reply to me privately - not the list.
Thanks!
todd.wenzel@wenzel-software.com
Todd Wenzel
Delafield, WI USA
RV-8AQB - Finish Kit
N900TW - Reserved
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: deburring in impossible places |
--> RV-List message posted by: "lucky macy" <luckymacy@hotmail.com>
Thanks for the replies. I already am doing the dubur bit in finger followed
by scotchbrite pad method but was hoping to find another way. I'll keep my
eyes open for the 90 degree drill adapter that fits the bit.
I was wondering if there was a dremel tool dubur tool or something similar
that did good job. The grinding stones I've always seen are too coarse for
this job. Anyone know differently?
Thanks,
lucky
>From: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: deburring in impossible places
>Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 19:37:49 +0000
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
>
>
> >Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 13:20:00 -0600
> >
> >--> RV-List message posted by: "Paul Besing" <azpilot@extremezone.com>
> >
> >Use emery cloth.
> >
> >Paul Besing
> >RV-6A Sold
> >RV-10 Soon
> >http://www.lacodeworks.com/besing
> >Kitlog Pro Builder's Log Software
> >http://www.kitlog.com
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: <RV8ter@aol.com>
> >To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> >Subject: RV-List: deburring in impossible places
> >
> >
> > > --> RV-List message posted by: RV8ter@aol.com
> > >
> > > I need a different approach to deburring areas like the underside of
>the
> > > floor board ribs for the platenuts and pop rivets. My way is taking
> >forever since
> > > I can't use my normal deburring tools.
> > >
> > > What other methods are folks using?
> > >
> > > thanks,
> > > lucky
>
>Or, drag a flat file along the underside of the those ribs to knock off the
>chunks. Scotchbrite pads work too.
>
>Brian Denk
>RV8 N94BD
>RV10 51
>
>Need a shot of Hank Williams or Patsy Cline? The classic country stars are
>always singing on MSN Radio Plus. Try one month free!
>
>
Need a shot of Hank Williams or Patsy Cline? The classic country stars are
always singing on MSN Radio Plus. Try one month free!
Message 12
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| Subject: | Please Support Your Email Lists... |
--> RV-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Listers,
There's only about a day and a half left until the official end of the
Email List Fund Raiser! You can still get your name on the List of
Contributors by making your Contribution today or tomorrow. I will be
posting the official List of Contributors on Tuesday or Wednesday.
Its your Contribution that makes these Lists available. Your $20 or $30
pays the bills that keeps the Internet Connection turned on and the servers
upgraded to the latest and fastest hardware.
Please support your lists by making a quick Contribution today. Using the
SSL secure online Contribution form, its fast, easy and safe...
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Thank you to everyone that has already made a Contribution. Be looking for
*your* name on the up coming List of Contributors!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Email List Admin
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
do not archive
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: When the vibration stops |
--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
Jim,
Thanks for posting your story on the RV-List. We all need to learn
from each other's experiences, so it is good that you shared this.
Good job keeping that engine running til it smoothed out.
Do you have Van's alternate air mod? It's not 100% clear to me
whether you had carb ice, or whether some super-cooled water droplets
or precip was freezing in your air filter. If the air filter was
getting blocked, the alternate air door might have been useful.
Could I get your permission to post your message on my web site too?
If you want, I can remove your name and N-number. I'll certainly
remove the e-mail address, so it doesn't get harvested by the spam
bots.
Take care,
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
At 11:43 -0500 29/11/03, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Nolan" <jamespnolan@earthlink.net>
>
>Listers,
> Just got in from Fort Worth via an all night stay at Terre Haute. I left
>Mt. Vernon (MVN) on the way to Warsaw in 2000 ft. ceilings and reported ice
>from 4-6000 ft. I filed IFR at 3000 because that's as low as they would give
>me, and climbing on top would have put me in ice for longer than I wanted to
>be. Twelve miles north of Terre Haute my airspeed indicator went to zero. I
>told Terra Haute I wanted to spend the night with them. I received radar
>vectors to HUF started to 1500 ft , made the turn south and the engine quit
>when I reduced power. I had carb heat on and throttle full open, I had to
>jockey the mixture at the full lean position. I pulsed the engine for eight
>miles. These RVs take very little power to keep them afloat. Finally the
>engine would take a richer mixture and started running OK as I got to the
>airport. Made a good landing and approach thanked me for not making them do
>a lot of paperwork. My controller at Terre Haute talked to me continually
>and indicated places to sit down if I had too, he was a Godsend.
> Chad Williams and the guys at the Flight Center put my RV4 in a heated
>hanger to let the ice melt off last night.
> Last night it dawned on me that a lot of you listers probably have the
>same carb heat set-up that I do. You use a heat muff around the pipes to get
>cabin heat and carb heat. IF YOU GET CARB ICE, TURN THE CABIN HEAT OFF WHILE
>YOU'RE TRYING TO GET YOUR ENGINE TO RUN AGAIN. I didn't think of this until
>last night in the motel room. ALSO, WHEN THEY SAY ICE, THEY MEAN ICE. I
>didn't have pitot heat because I wasn't going to be foolish enough to fly in
>icing conditions, RIGHT!
>Jim Nolan
>N444JN
>Older and Wiser
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: When the vibration stops |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
I agree with Kevin that you did a great job of doing what it takes to
fly the airplane and have a safe ending
and are to be congratulated for keeping a cool head Now I can't let this
go without asking why you would
file and fly into KNOWN icing conditions? I know that you said the ice
was from 4000-6000 ft and you
filed for 3000 ft but still I would not have done that myself because no
one can predict that closely at what
level the ice well really start and stop. IMO
Jerry
do not arhcive
Kevin Horton wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
>
>Jim,
>
>Thanks for posting your story on the RV-List. We all need to learn
>from each other's experiences, so it is good that you shared this.
>Good job keeping that engine running til it smoothed out.
>
>Do you have Van's alternate air mod? It's not 100% clear to me
>whether you had carb ice, or whether some super-cooled water droplets
>or precip was freezing in your air filter. If the air filter was
>getting blocked, the alternate air door might have been useful.
>
>Could I get your permission to post your message on my web site too?
>If you want, I can remove your name and N-number. I'll certainly
>remove the e-mail address, so it doesn't get harvested by the spam
>bots.
>
>Take care,
>
>Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
>Ottawa, Canada
>http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
>
>At 11:43 -0500 29/11/03, you wrote:
>
>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Nolan" <jamespnolan@earthlink.net>
>>
>>Listers,
>> Just got in from Fort Worth via an all night stay at Terre Haute. I left
>>Mt. Vernon (MVN) on the way to Warsaw in 2000 ft. ceilings and reported ice
>>
>>
>>from 4-6000 ft. I filed IFR at 3000 because that's as low as they would give
>
>
>>me, and climbing on top would have put me in ice for longer than I wanted to
>>be. Twelve miles north of Terre Haute my airspeed indicator went to zero. I
>>told Terra Haute I wanted to spend the night with them. I received radar
>>vectors to HUF started to 1500 ft , made the turn south and the engine quit
>>when I reduced power. I had carb heat on and throttle full open, I had to
>>jockey the mixture at the full lean position. I pulsed the engine for eight
>>miles. These RVs take very little power to keep them afloat. Finally the
>>engine would take a richer mixture and started running OK as I got to the
>>airport. Made a good landing and approach thanked me for not making them do
>>a lot of paperwork. My controller at Terre Haute talked to me continually
>>and indicated places to sit down if I had too, he was a Godsend.
>> Chad Williams and the guys at the Flight Center put my RV4 in a heated
>>hanger to let the ice melt off last night.
>> Last night it dawned on me that a lot of you listers probably have the
>>same carb heat set-up that I do. You use a heat muff around the pipes to get
>>cabin heat and carb heat. IF YOU GET CARB ICE, TURN THE CABIN HEAT OFF WHILE
>>YOU'RE TRYING TO GET YOUR ENGINE TO RUN AGAIN. I didn't think of this until
>>last night in the motel room. ALSO, WHEN THEY SAY ICE, THEY MEAN ICE. I
>>didn't have pitot heat because I wasn't going to be foolish enough to fly in
>>icing conditions, RIGHT!
>>Jim Nolan
>>N444JN
>>Older and Wiser
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 15
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|
| Subject: | Large Scale RC model |
--> RV-List message posted by: Rick Galati <rick6a@yahoo.com>
Listers,
Aircraft Extras has recently started offering a large scale RC flying model kit
of the RV-6(A). I may be interested in purchasing the kit as a sort of *Mini-Me*
companion to its namesake. Will anyone who has purchased this RC kit care
to comment (either publicly or off-list) as to the quality and value of this
new offering? I would appreciate any and all customer reviews. Thanks.
Rick Galati RV-6A finishing
---------------------------------
Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
Message 16
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|
| Subject: | deburring in impossible places |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" <stein@steinair.com>
Hi Lucky,
A bit of fine grit sand paper, emery cloth, or scothbrite will be fine.
Don't get to wrapped up, they're just platenuts after all, nothing super
dooper important. Just knock off the sharp edges with something and you'll
be fine!
Cheers,
Stein Bruch
RV6's, Minneapolis
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of RV8ter@aol.com
Subject: RV-List: deburring in impossible places
--> RV-List message posted by: RV8ter@aol.com
I need a different approach to deburring areas like the underside of the
floor board ribs for the platenuts and pop rivets. My way is taking forever
since
I can't use my normal deburring tools.
What other methods are folks using?
thanks,
lucky
Message 17
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|
| Subject: | Rv-list spark Plugs |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Joe Hine" <joehine@rogers.com>
Vans has a good price for Autolite plugs, bought a set last year and they
are working fine so far.
Joe Hine
RV4 C-FYTQ
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
smoothweasel@juno.com
Subject: RV-List: Rv-list spark Plugs
--> RV-List message posted by: smoothweasel@juno.com
I remember someone mentioning a source for spark plugs that was very
reasonable in price. I don't have the Internet here to check the
archives.
Could someone refer me to the source.........I need the short 18 mm
plugs.
Joel "Weasel" Graber
-4 finishing.....90% done 90 to go...
do not archive
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: deburring in impossible places |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Elsa & Henry" <elsa-henry@darlor-watch.com>
Lucky,
Amongst some tools I inherited from a cousin that did a lot of
machine work, were some deburring tools that are used (I think) in milling
machines. They have a 3/8" shank and taper down to narrow diameters to fit
drilled holes, but the business end has a ground-out slot with a sharp barb
that deburrs a drilled hole as the tool is rotated and as the tool is
withdrawn, the barb contacts the burr in the hole and removes it. I used
them by sticking the tool in the hole and turning the shank by hand. Did a
great job! I didn't have one for #12 holes so I took the shank of a smaller
drill and ground a slot in it (with a Dremel with the 1/12" cut-off disc),
emulating the slot and sharp edge of the proper tool and it did the job
well. The ground-out slot has to be wider than the material you are
inserting the tool into and the bottom of the slot is slanted to make a
sharp edge, which does the job of removing the burr as you hook it in the
hole and pull-up as you rotate it.
Hard to describe, but hope this gives you the idea. There are many places
that these tools were used.
Cheers!!------Henry Hore
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Wright Flyer down. |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Compton" <thecomptons@bellsouth.net>
Sorry, but it's hard for me to get too excited about this centennial thing,
seeing as Orville has been morphed into a woman for the "First Flight"
reenactment. But then again, in our brave new world, this should hardly
come as a surprise.
So much for historical accuracy, but at least the PC feel-good crowd will be
comfortable.
Randy Compton
RV-3
Gulf Breeze, FL
Do Not Archive
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Wright Flyer down. |
--> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
Randy Compton wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Compton" <thecomptons@bellsouth.net>
>
>Sorry, but it's hard for me to get too excited about this centennial thing,
>seeing as Orville has been morphed into a woman for the "First Flight"
>reenactment.
>
Not yet. They'll flip a coin to decide whether Terry Queijo (the Gal)or
Kevin Kochersberger The guy (I think)get the flight. But since she crashed it
......
Linn
> But then again, in our brave new world, this should hardly
>come as a surprise.
>
>So much for historical accuracy, but at least the PC feel-good crowd will be
>comfortable.
>
>Randy Compton
>RV-3
>Gulf Breeze, FL
>
>Do Not Archive
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Wright Flyer down. |
--> RV-List message posted by: Phat Phil <phugoid@comcast.net>
Randy Compton wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Compton" <thecomptons@bellsouth.net>
>
>Sorry, but it's hard for me to get too excited about this centennial thing,
>seeing as Orville has been morphed into a woman for the "First Flight"
>reenactment. But then again, in our brave new world, this should hardly
>come as a surprise.
>
>So much for historical accuracy, but at least the PC feel-good crowd will be
>comfortable.
>
>Randy Compton
>RV-3
>Gulf Breeze, FL
>
>Do Not Archive
>
If it had been a woman who made the first flight do you think they would
consider a man for the reinactment?
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Wright Flyer down. |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
Ok, so I didn't want to get into this either, and I'm sure I'll get a lot of
flames for this one....but it seems to me that the 100 year anniversary of
the first powered flight already happened... Over two years ago...
http://vondane.com/rv8a/first/index.htm
-Bill
do not archive!
----- Original Message -----
From: "linn walters" <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Wright Flyer down.
--> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
Randy Compton wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Compton" <thecomptons@bellsouth.net>
>
>Sorry, but it's hard for me to get too excited about this centennial thing,
>seeing as Orville has been morphed into a woman for the "First Flight"
>reenactment.
>
Not yet. They'll flip a coin to decide whether Terry Queijo (the Gal)or
Kevin Kochersberger The guy (I think)get the flight. But since she crashed
it ......
Linn
> But then again, in our brave new world, this should hardly
>come as a surprise.
>
>So much for historical accuracy, but at least the PC feel-good crowd will
be
>comfortable.
>
>Randy Compton
>RV-3
>Gulf Breeze, FL
>
>Do Not Archive
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Really long winded Icing dribble, was : When the vibration stops |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr@petroblend.com>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
>
>Now I can't let this
> go without asking why you would
> file and fly into KNOWN icing conditions? I know that you said the ice
> was from 4000-6000 ft and you
> filed for 3000 ft but still I would not have done that myself because no
> one can predict that closely at what
> level the ice well really start and stop. IMO
>
It has been a long weekend, and I seem to have nothing better to do so I
will tackle this one.... I flew night freight in Twin Beeches and C-402s
part-time for 10 years in Iowa and along the way, I got a little experience
with ice.
Before we go any farther, flying IFR without pitot heat is a bad idea.
(Sorry Jim, but that is the fact. I imagine you have already ordered a
heated pitot tube. Sick engine + no airspeed = no fun.) Pitot heat is a NO
GO item for IFR, in all but the low altitude summer time, and even then you
can have freezing temps at fairly low altitudes when convective activity
gets rolling.
If you plan to fly IFR out here in the Midwest, you have to remember we only
have 2 WX briefings from FSS, when we call, we get a message that says, "if
it is between April 1 and November 1 press 1 for the summer briefing,
otherwise press 2 for the winter briefing." The summer briefing says
"afternoon thunderstorms with tops to FL 450, hail to 2", and wind gusts to
50kts." The winter briefing says "Scattered snow showers with visibility
reduced to 1/2 mile and Moderate Mixed Ice in the clouds from the freezing
level to FL180.
The only way to fly IFR out here in the winter is to "manage ice" Ice is
like turbulence, there is almost always some, and it is usually not a big
deal. Without knowing the WX pattern etc, I don't know what Jim's plan was
or should have been, but "plan" is the key word and with a "plan" usually
you can "manage" ice pretty effectively. Flying IFR in the winter up north
is not for marginal instrument pilots. Flying and navigating needs to be
easy enough for the pilot to leave plenty of mental horsepower available for
gathering weather information and planning.
Deicing equipment on light airplanes is highly overrated, the best friend
you can have in the ice is climb performance, and RVs have good climb
performance!
The whole icing syllabus can not be reduced to a post on this list, but here
are some points that might be useful for managing ice.
#1 Never fly in Freezing Rain.
#2 Have a Plan, and a plan B.
#3 Upon encountering Ice, take immediate action, in accordance with #2
#4 Never fly in Freezing Rain
#5 If the plan falls apart, implement Plan B and formulate Plan C. Repeat as
necessary.
#6 Pilots almost always stop flying before the airplane. NEVER QUIT
FLYING!!! Most airplanes (fat wing, RV included) will fly with OBSCENE
amounts of ice on them. NEVER QUIT FLYING!!!!
#7 Never fly in Freezing Rain.
#8 95% of all icing encounters are less than 3000 feet vertically.
#9 Upon encountering ice, the default reaction should be to climb
immediately. Descending is always an option, but if you descend and guessed
wrong, climbing is no longer an option.
#10 Never Fly in Freezing Rain. This is the exception to #9 if you
encounter freezing rain turn around, as quickly as you can.
#11 Do not let ATC fly your airplane. If you are on top and they want you
to descend into the ice 40 miles from the airport, do not do it. Stay up
high, then dive for the airport as late as possible. If you need to climb,
ask once, and then insist on a climb even if it means you have to change
heading to clear traffic.
#12 You guessed it, Never Fly in Freezing Rain.
With these rules in mind, the "plan" might be, Get a briefing, If the tops
are below 8000 feet, and the freezing level is 4000 feet. Plan A might be
like Jim's try to stay below it. upon encountering the ice, Plan B is
immediately request an unrestricted climb to 8 or 9000 feet and use FULL
power. RV's climb well in cold weather and within 5 minutes you should be
on top. Plan C then becomes turning around and beginning a decent to a
nearby airport for a straight in approach. Do not pussy foot around with
(unnecessary) procedure turns if you are accumulating ice at a rapid rate.
If you are in radar coverage get vectors, if not they won't know you skipped
the PT anyway.
Now you are up on top at 9000 feet and the clouds are sneaking up beneath
you. Ask center for a pilot report or get on the flight watch, ask what is
going on below. Remember that 95% thing, it came from a big study done by
some PHD types that I got as a reference for an icing article in IFR
magazine. You punch into the clouds, and if you start getting ice you may
want to climb to 10 or 11, or you may want to request 4 or 5 thousand. but
once you start the decent if you start picking up ice, you either have to
climb backup, or you are committed to descend till you get out of it, or
pick a place to land if you can't get below it. (have a alternate in mind
when you start the decent) 95% of the time you will be below it in 3000
feet and you can continue to your destination.
In the briefing, planning and flying, try to visualize the weather system.
Where the cold air and where the warm can be found. Either one is fine, it
is the kinda cold air that causes the problems. Unless you are flying
parallel with the weather system, the altitudes on the top and bottom of
these areas, will move up or down as you cross the fronts. So in the
previous example where the tops of the clouds, and ice, are rising, the
chances are the base of the icing layer is rising as well and on a trip like
that you could cross the icing layer twice and never spend more than 10
minutes total exposed to the ice. Unless you are in Freezing Rain, 10
minutes of ice will seldom cause you any more trouble than a frozen
windshield. Something to consider if you are shooting a non-precision
approach. If you can't see the runway, fly to the airport, and circle
looking out the side using a carrier type approach.
That is the short version.
Some quick war stories:
You may have determined by now that I have a healthy respect for freezing
rain. I descended into freezing rain in a Cessna 402 at 3000 ft on an ILS
with the gear up planning to circle. I broke out of the clouds at 2000 feet
with full power, the gear was still up and the airplane was barely flyable,
at DH I put the gear down. The windshield was covered so I kept the
localizer centered till I saw the runway lights out the side window and
smashed it on to the runway. It was the closest I have ever been to buying
the farm. I was in the clouds for less than a minute and had over 2" of
clear ice that ran back to the spar. NEVER QUIT FLYING the airplane. (you
wonder why I fly warbirds on weekends instead of night freight?)
Another time, I was flying VFR underneath the clouds, at night, the ceiling
got below 1000 ft and I was 40 miles from my destination. I asked for my
clearance (which I had briefed ATC would be my plan if the ceiling got too
low.) and climbed to 4000 ft. With only 40 miles to go, why climb higher,
besides I had deice equipment. I climbed into a 30 kt headwind, and started
picking up rime ice. I did not want to climb any higher, I only had 40 nm
to go.... I thought I would just slug it out. I kept cycling the boots,
and kept the wings clear, but every unprotected leading edge of anything
just kept piling on ice, which reduced my groundspeed even further. I just
kept adding power and when I started down the glideslope I was at 110 knots
with climb power. No options, no climb performance left, nothing, just
shoot an approach and make it. No excuses. I was in the ice for over 30
minutes including the approach maneuvering and it was too long. There was 3
to 4 inches of mixed ice on the unprotected areas.
The more winters I flew the less ice I seemed to encounter, and the weather
never changed. I can honestly say there have been entire winters when I
never cycled the boots......
Sorry for the long post, but it really is the short version.
Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Wright Flyer down. |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Karie Daniel" <karie4@comcast.net>
Don't go there Bill..... :-)
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Wright Flyer down.
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
>
> Ok, so I didn't want to get into this either, and I'm sure I'll get a lot
of
> flames for this one....but it seems to me that the 100 year anniversary of
> the first powered flight already happened... Over two years ago...
>
> http://vondane.com/rv8a/first/index.htm
>
> -Bill
> do not archive!
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "linn walters" <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Wright Flyer down.
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
>
> Randy Compton wrote:
>
> >--> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Compton"
<thecomptons@bellsouth.net>
> >
> >Sorry, but it's hard for me to get too excited about this centennial
thing,
> >seeing as Orville has been morphed into a woman for the "First Flight"
> >reenactment.
> >
> Not yet. They'll flip a coin to decide whether Terry Queijo (the Gal)or
> Kevin Kochersberger The guy (I think)get the flight. But since she
crashed
> it ......
> Linn
>
> > But then again, in our brave new world, this should hardly
> >come as a surprise.
> >
> >So much for historical accuracy, but at least the PC feel-good crowd will
> be
> >comfortable.
> >
> >Randy Compton
> >RV-3
> >Gulf Breeze, FL
> >
> >Do Not Archive
> >
> >
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Really long winded Icing dribble, was : When the vibration |
stops
--> RV-List message posted by: Boyd Braem <bcbraem@comcast.net>
Doug--excellent post--I hope everybody (esp. lower time pilots) (and
that is not an insult--it's just practical sense) reads it.
So, Doug, what do you think about "light" IFR? "I'm just going to fly
(up or down?) thru a layer or two"
Any one who can spool up a Corsair (fire those cartridges) and buzz it
around, isn't all bad. Whispering Death comes home.
Tho, can any one say why they put that dip in the F-4U Corsair's wing?
Boyd.
Super-6
do not archive
On Saturday, November 29, 2003, at 11:12 PM, Doug Rozendaal wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr@petroblend.com>
>
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