Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:07 AM - Re: Scotch-Brite (Rick Galati)
2. 05:52 AM - Re: Airmap: anyone have newest models? (SportAV8R@aol.com)
3. 06:16 AM - Re: Ken Barto tow bars (DWENSING@aol.com)
4. 06:31 AM - AGM batteries (Frazier, Vincent A)
5. 06:32 AM - Re: Airmap: anyone have newest models? (Scott Bilinski)
6. 06:43 AM - Re: AFS Waterbourne painting (P M Condon)
7. 06:48 AM - Re: RV-List Digest: 53 Msgs - 12/02/03 (Frazier, Vincent A)
8. 07:22 AM - Re: Going faster (Glen Matejcek)
9. 07:28 AM - Re: batteries (a flyer)
10. 08:41 AM - Re: Re: AFS Waterbourne painting (Richard Tasker)
11. 09:12 AM - Re: batteries (Bill Dube)
12. 09:13 AM - Fw: Airmap 500 and 1000 (SportAV8R@aol.com)
13. 09:58 AM - Re: Re: Going faster (Randy Compton)
14. 10:57 AM - Re: batteries (czechsix@juno.com)
15. 11:32 AM - WTB - Rv-4 Empenage and Fuselage (Ron Patterson)
16. 11:53 AM - Re: batteries (Bob U.)
17. 01:30 PM - Re: batteries (Bill Dube)
18. 01:55 PM - RV 8 Baffles (Al Grajek)
19. 02:14 PM - Re: batteries (Bill Dube)
20. 02:36 PM - Re: batteries (Tracy Crook)
21. 03:01 PM - Re: RV 8 Baffles (Bill VonDane)
22. 03:43 PM - Fuel Caps (Dougpsr@aol.com)
23. 03:58 PM - WTB - Rv-4 Empenage and Fuselage (Ron Patterson)
24. 05:13 PM - Re: Airmap: anyone have newest models? (William Davis)
25. 05:13 PM - Re: Propeller performance testing (Gordon and Marge)
26. 05:58 PM - EIS, prop limits? (Larry Bowen)
27. 06:16 PM - 1" Scat tubing (Keith Vasey)
28. 06:47 PM - Re: Ken Barto tow bars (Craig Warner)
29. 06:47 PM - Re: batteries/Rockets going Up (Boyd Braem)
30. 07:42 PM - Tank building advice (Jeff Point)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Scotch-Brite |
HTML_FONTCOLOR_RED@matronics.com, HTML_FONTCOLOR_UNSAFE@matronics.com
--> RV-List message posted by: Rick Galati <rick6a@yahoo.com>
Long before I started building an RV, I brought home industrial grade Scotch-Brite
pads for use in my home shop. When I carelessly left one in the kitchen sink,
my wife by sheer happenstance discovered how efficient Scotch-Brite is at
cleaning pots and pans. She never looked back. Later, she tried the type that
is sold in supermarkets everywhere, but they aren't a patch compared to the quality
of the industrial grade version. I guess what I'm saying is $37.99 for a
box of 60 Scotch-Brite pads is a good deal and might not be a "sexy" Christmas
present, but it sure is a useful one.
Rick Galati RV-6A "finishing"
Subject:
Scotch-BriteFrom: chris (1qazxsw23edcvfr45tgbnhy67ujm@cox.net)Date: Tue
Dec 02 - 5:28 PM
--> RV-List message posted by: chris <1qazxsw23edcvfr45tgbnhy67ujm@cox.net>I just noticed that MSC has the maroon 7447 Scotch-Brite hand pads on sale for $37.99 for a box of 60. I know 60 is enough to build about 10 planes but if you are part of a group of local builders or an EAA chapter it would be great deal.http://www.mscdirect.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Merchant_Id=1&Section_Id=&pcount=&Product_Id=460029&query=PG03356557-- Chris Woodhouse
---------------------------------
Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Airmap: anyone have newest models? |
--> RV-List message posted by: SportAV8R@aol.com
Hi, Ed.
I guess my specific questions are about display readability and suitability to
automobile/highway navigation.
The 300's display measures 3.25 inches diagonal, so I think the 500 actually has
a smaller display, but perhaps more pixel count? I cannot find the pixel statistics
in my 300 manual, but I think it's 160x160. Route numbers are particularly
hard to read in the 300's display. Also a lot of water features and secondary
roads are not depicted well; on the moving map display it's often hard
to tell road size, and the roads I see on the display often don't look much like
the depiction on the sectional chart. I wonder if the background map in the
500 has addresses these shortcomings.
The 500 looks like it would do "okay" as an automotive travel companion, but I
don't think it has turn-by-turn routing without a lot of laborious route mapping
by the user. Am I correct? Have you found it helpful in the car?
I was also genuinely curious if the Airmap 1000 was really two and a half inches
thick (and if so, why?!) as I cannot imagine the need for such case volume versus
other models. The 5" display sure looks appealing, though!
I'm going to copy this to the list since I think it helps clarify my original question.
Thanks for your personal reply.
-Bill
do not archive
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Ken Barto tow bars |
--> RV-List message posted by: DWENSING@aol.com
Sent a message to Ken Barto for info on his tow bars at address obtained in
the archives. Message came back. Anyone know his current email address? Does he
still make tow bars? Need one for 6A with new style wheel pant?
Dale Ensing
do not archive
Message 4
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier@usi.edu>
SNIP Since the typical aircraft charging system does not even come close to properly
charging an
AGM, you should only expect a fraction of the rated capacity of your battery.
SNIP
So, what do you recommend to charge it properly??? Or is it even possible? Or
even worth worrying about?
Thanks,
Vince
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Airmap: anyone have newest models? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Just talked tot hem yesterday and the 1000 is not available yet. Here are
the dim's off their web page.
Dimensions (H x W x D)
6.25" x 4.9" x 2.5"
(16 x 12.5 x 6.4 cm)
Your right 2.5 thick......Must be the batteries?
At 11:13 PM 12/2/03 -0500, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: SportAV8R@aol.com
>
>I'd like a field report from amyone with experience with the Lowrance Airmap
>500 or 1000 models. Thinking about replacing my aging Airmap 300... Are the
>newer displays really as white and contrasty as the pictures indicate? My
>black-on-green Airmap 300 display is getting hard on these aging eyes, even
>with bifocal Serengetti's! Also would like to know if the 1000 is really
>2.5 inches thick (as the website indicates). That seems unbelievable (does
>it contain its own Odyssey 17AH battery or something??) but if true it would
>allow me to eliminate the 1000 from consideration without further ado (if I
>wanted a brick to attach to my panel, I could get one more cheaply at the
>hardware store ;-)
>
>I think the 500's form factor wil allow direct placement in (on) my panel
>where I currently have the 300 velcro'd in place. It also looks like this
>would be a decent, though not ideal, car-travel GPS as well, helping me
>justify the cost to the wife. Before I shell out 425 bucks
>(airportpilotshop.com)for an Airmap 500, or twice that for the 1000, I'd
>love to hear some feedback from actual users, especially if you're having to
>peer through +1.5 diopters to see your digital instrumentation as I have
>begun doing in the last year.
>
>-Bill B
>RV-6A
>do not archive
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 6
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| Subject: | re: AFS Waterbourne painting |
--> RV-List message posted by: P M Condon <pcondon@mitre.org>
Don't be fooled into thinking this is a entirely "safe" product.
Waterborne paint products are offered by most all the paint companys.
BASF, PPG, Dupont & S/W all offer a Waterborne paint product. (I just
completed a small project using BASF Glasurit 90 series waterborne). In
ASF's case, water is used, in small portions, as a thinner but this ASF
product is a 2K paint system and you do add the hardener component when
mixing this paint for spray application. This hardener component is
where the ISO's are introduced and you still need a positive air
breathing system to cope with the ISO's. You are right in that there is
less "solvent" smell; in my experience the solvent smell disapates
rather quickly anyway. You should be VERY concerned with the breathing
air and the effects of the ISO's in the air that may linger. In a closed
environment, you may have less detectable, noticable smell in the
waterborne product but the bad components of the polyurathane you are
spraying are still present......you just can't smell them due to lack of
trace "solvent" fumes....
Message 7
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| Subject: | RE: RV-List Digest: 53 Msgs - 12/02/03 |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier@usi.edu>
Regarding the need to remove alclad, here's a bit more info....
SNIP For other aluminum alloys such as cast or 2024 alloy, use a desmut/deoxidizer
as a pre step before anodizing. This step comes right after the cleaning step
and before anodizing. It prepares the alloys surface for anodizing by removing
other NON-aluminum metals from the surface. Example: 2024 alloy has 5% copper.
This alloy along with others should be desmutted before anodizing so a pure
surface is presented to the anodizing tank. When doing 6000 series it is not
as important, but I use a desmut step no matter what alloy I am anodizing.
Desmut is a mixture of sulfuric and ferric acid. It is mixed with water to make
a bath just like the cleaner is. Desmut is done at room temperature for 1-5
minutes depending on the alloy. Desmut comes with most anodizing kits. It you
are just anodizing 6061, then you can skip this step. However, it improves the
quality of 6061's anodized surface. SNIP
But I have to wonder why would you need to remove the alclad since it's pure aluminum????
I would think that the alclad would perform the best... better than
any of the alloys.
I've seen several sets of engine baffles anodized. Surely they didn't buff all
of the alclad off of them before anodizing... did they? Anyone know for sure?
Vince
Message 8
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| Subject: | RE: Going faster |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Glen Matejcek" <aerobubba@earthlink.net>
Hi Guys-
First and foremost, to those who think you are full of it, you now have
some competition (insert little wink thingy here...).
The aircraft is a B737-800W (winglet). The VG's are on the underside of
the LE and do project fwd of their mounting, but I don't think that they
project fwd enough to affect the upper surface flow. Also, they are canted
in yaw only as far as I can recall, which would make them streamlined to
the upwash. As far as the mach induced separation goes, I would anticipate
that at the wing roots, not the tips. And what do you mean anyway,
implying that my RV won't do .75???? Hmmmmpppff!
I recently spoke with a fella at work who said that his understanding was
that these LE widgets were in fact a substitute for flow fences. I'll try
to get some pix today at work, if anyone is interested.
gm
Message 9
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--> RV-List message posted by: a flyer <aflyer@direcway.com>
Professor Bill, while you are at it, where do the nickel-metal hydride
batteries fit in? I often see these used for rechargeable and portable apps
like the Segway.
Thanks in advance, and do not archive
John Huft
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dube" <bdube@al.noaa.gov>
Subject: Re: RV-List: batteries
> --> RV-List message posted by: Bill Dube <bdube@al.noaa.gov>
>
> At 05:34 PM 12/2/2003 -0500, you wrote:
> >--> RV-List message posted by: "Tracy Crook" <lors01@msn.com>
> >
> >
> >I'll have to go look at the model number but it is a common (large size)
> >motorcycle battery from NAPA. They supply several models of the same
> >physical size that vary from 17 to 22 AH and I picked the highest
> >one. Price was highest too, about $65 as I recall. Trouble is I don't
> >know what the discharge rate was for that spec. Generally, the faster
> >you drain a lead acid battery the lower its rating goes, so the
difference
> >in ratings might not even be real if they used different discharge rates.
>
> There is a formula you can use called "Peukert's Equation" that
> allows you to calculate the amp-hr capacity of the battery at any
discharge
> rate. To set the two constants in the equation, you must know the actual
> capacity at two different discharge rates.
>
> Here is a link to a Peukert calculator:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/8679/battery.html
>
>
> >It takes about 12 amps to keep my controllers, pumps, ignition coils (4)
> >and injectors fed. The 22 AH should last well over 1 hr but it doesn't.
>
> The amp-hr specification is at the 20 hr discharge rate. Thus, if
> you had a draw of 1.1 amps, the battery would supply 22 amp-hrs over the
20
> hours that it took to run it flat. If instead, you pulled 22 amps from it,
> it would might last only 15 or 20 minutes before it was dead.
>
> "Stiff" batteries with high CCAs and low internal resistance do
> not suffer as badly from this problem. Also, NiCad batteries and Li-Ion
> batteries lose very little capacity at modestly high discharges. That is
> another reason that they make excellent back-up type batteries.
>
> > The 22 AH rating is probably at a very low current draw. The CCA
rating
> > is pretty low on this battery but the Mazda rotary doesn't take much
> > torque to crank. No valve train to operate and only 3 moving parts.
>
> If you were to get a battery with a greater CCA, but a slightly
> lower amp-hr capacity, it would probably run your airplane longer without
> an alternator.
>
>
> >My thanks to Bill Dube for the quick course on batteries. Just the info
I
> >needed to make an intelligent choice for the -8 I'm building. I'll
> >probably spring for the ni-cads and leave the motorcycle battery in
the -4
> >test mule.
>
> Some of the aircraft style starting batteries can produce
> startlingly high CCA's, last nearly forever, and have excellent "dead
> alternator" capacity for their weight. They cost a fortune, however.
> Typically five to eight times the cost of a similar CCA lead-acid battery.
> Ouch!
>
> If you are interested in just the one hour capacity, and are not
> going to use the NiCad to start the airplane, the cost is not as painful.
> For the same one-hour capacity, a flooded NiCad will weigh about 1/2 as
> much as a lead-acid battery and will cost _just_ three to four times as
much.
>
> Aircraft starting NiCads are often available used and are often
in
> very good condition used. However, there are many models and styles and
> they all don't have good CCA ratings. You can ruin NiCads if you stray
> beyond their peak amperage (discharge) ratings. Also, some folks try to
> sell worn-out NiCads, or even give them away, because they are expensive
to
> "throw" away as they contain cadmium. Load test before you buy a used
NiCad!
>
> If you are planning a two battery system for reliability,
probably
> the best choice would be an AGM for starting and a NiCad for back-up.
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: re: AFS Waterbourne painting |
--> RV-List message posted by: Richard Tasker <retasker@optonline.net>
I talked to Terry at AFS and specifically asked the question about
external breathing air. She said that it is unnecessary, that a good
cartridge system provides all the protection needed. Their system does
not generate the poisonous products that the solvent based products do.
I suggest that you might want to talk to them. I don't know what your
qualifications are, but I have to assume that since AFS uses their own
products in their shop, they know what they are talking about and are
not slowly poisoning there entire workforce.
This is not my opinion, just my $0.02 based on my discussion with AFS.
Dick Tasker, RV9A 90573
P M Condon wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: P M Condon <pcondon@mitre.org>
>
>Don't be fooled into thinking this is a entirely "safe" product.
>Waterborne paint products are offered by most all the paint companys.
>BASF, PPG, Dupont & S/W all offer a Waterborne paint product. (I just
>completed a small project using BASF Glasurit 90 series waterborne). In
>ASF's case, water is used, in small portions, as a thinner but this ASF
>product is a 2K paint system and you do add the hardener component when
>mixing this paint for spray application. This hardener component is
>where the ISO's are introduced and you still need a positive air
>breathing system to cope with the ISO's. You are right in that there is
>less "solvent" smell; in my experience the solvent smell disapates
>rather quickly anyway. You should be VERY concerned with the breathing
>air and the effects of the ISO's in the air that may linger. In a closed
>environment, you may have less detectable, noticable smell in the
>waterborne product but the bad components of the polyurathane you are
>spraying are still present......you just can't smell them due to lack of
>trace "solvent" fumes....
>
Message 11
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--> RV-List message posted by: Bill Dube <bdube@al.noaa.gov>
At 08:00 AM 12/3/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: a flyer <aflyer@direcway.com>
>
>Professor Bill, while you are at it, where do the nickel-metal hydride
>batteries fit in? I often see these used for rechargeable and portable apps
>like the Segway.
This is a bit off topic, but since you asked....
NiMH batteries hold about half again more energy per kg than
NiCads, but much less than Li-Ion. They are nearly as robust as NiCads as
well. They cost a touch more than NiCads.
The two main disadvantages of NiMH is they have high self
discharge and they contain cadmium, a toxic metal. The self discharge is
high enough that they typically go flat in few weeks. This is not really
acceptable for a starting battery, especially in a General Aviation
aircraft that may be left in the hangar for a month or more.
Li-Ion batteries will eventually displace NiMH batteries in most
applications. I predict that in about 5 years there will be virtually no
NiMH batteries in new products.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Fwd: Airmap 500 and 1000 |
--> RV-List message posted by: SportAV8R@aol.com
From: "Mei, Don" <DMei@enfield.org>
Subject: Airmap 500 and 1000
I'm at work and can't post to the RV list from this email address. Can you
forward this to the list for me.
Thanks.
I went to AOPA in Philly about a month ago and got to see the 500 and 1000.
The 1000 was the only functioning pre-production unit they had in the
country. Thoughts:
Airmap 500 - WOW what a deal. very high contrast display. nice logic, not
quite as intuitive as Garmin, but very good. PACKAG INCLUDES computer cable
as well as all software necessary to make this function as a high level
automotive GPS. i.e. take me to 123 main street anytown, Ohio. And it
will take you there. All for $500 ish. Fantastic. Memory is standard
SD/MM card used by digital cameras. Buy a bigger one and you can store more
driving data. (aviation data is built in) Also surprising was how slim
this unit is. Looked like it could slide into a back pocket.
Airmap 1000 - Yes It is 2.5 inches thick. (surprising since 500 is so
thin) I don't know why, and neither did the rep. Display is BIG. Same
size as a GNS 530. But the pre production screen was neither as bright nor
as contrasty as the 500's screen (still as good as a Garmin 196) Rep said
production unit will be as bright as 500's . Regardless, if you see a 500
DO NOT assume the 1000 will be just as bright. It also comes with the same
driving software. I am thinking this thing will mount nicely just below my
Dynon.
Both units had the very nice extended runway centerline for emergency
"instrument " approaches as well as WAAS. You can read about the features
on the web page, I just thought I'd give my personal experiences.
Best regards,
Don Mei
RV-4
3B9 - Chester, CT
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<META NAME"Generator" CONTENT"MS Exchange Server version 5.5.2653.12">
Airmap 500 and 1000
I'm at work and can't post to the RV list from this email address. Can you forward
this to the list for me.
Thanks.
I went to AOPA in Philly about a month ago=20and got to see the 500 and 1000. The
1000 was the only functioning pre-production unit they had in the country.
Thoughts:
Airmap 500 - WOW what a deal. very high contrast display. nice logic, not quite
as intuitive as Garmin, but very good. PACKAG INCLUDES computer cable as well
as all software necessary to make this function as a high level automotive GPS.
i.e. take me to 123 main street anytown, Ohio. And it will take you there.
All for $500 ish. Fantastic. Memory is standard SD/MM card used by digital cameras.
Buy a bigger one and you can store more driving data. (aviation data is
built in) Also surprising was how=20slim this unit is. Looked like it could slide
into a back pocket.
Airmap 1000 - Yes It is 2.5 inches thick. (surprising since 500 is so thin) I don't
know=20why, and neither did the rep. Display is BIG. Same size as a GNS 530.
But the pre production screen was neither as bright nor as contrasty as the
500's screen (still as good as a Garmin 196) Rep said production unit will be
as bright as 500's . Regardless, if you see=20a 500 DO NOT assume the 1000 will
be just as bright. It also comes with the same driving software. I am thinking
this thing will mount nicely just below my Dynon.
Both units had the very nice extended runway centerline for emergency instrument
approaches as well as WAAS. You can read about the features on the web page,
I just thought I'd give my personal experiences.
Best regards,
Don Mei
RV-4
3B9 - Chester, CT
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Going faster |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Compton" <thecomptons@bellsouth.net>
> The VG's are on the underside of
> the LE and do project fwd of their mounting, but I don't think that they
> project fwd enough to affect the upper surface flow.
The MD-88 has similar devices on the underside of the wing. The are called
vortilons, and serve to reduce the spanwise flow.
The -88 wing is not that great at slow speeds, but at least McDonnell
Douglas (now McBoeing) made up for it by making it not that good at high
speed either :-) Mach buffet onset happens at a relatively low indicated
Mach for a jet. Given all this, I'd sure hate to see how it would fly
without the vortilons.
Oh, and don't even mention the brakes. She stops about as well as a lady in
high heels on an icy sidewalk.
Randy Compton
Do Not Archive
Message 14
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--> RV-List message posted by: czechsix@juno.com
Bill,
This is interesting stuff (I'm cc'ing this post to the Aeroelectric list since
it's very relevant to the subject matter discussed there). I've pondered my options
for a backup battery on my dual Lightspeed -8A. I've settled on the 16
ah Odyssey for my main battery, and this should give me a pretty good reserve
if the alternator craps out because my essential loads for panel and one Lightspeed
ignition are 3-4 Amps max. The backup battery will feed only the other
ignition system and is normally charged from the main battery/alternator via a
Schottky diode. So....odds of the backup battery ever being called upon to do
its job of keeping the engine running after everything else is dead is pretty
unlikely. Chances are it will just be dead weight for the life of the airplane.
With that in mind, I'd like to minimize the amount of dead weight that I
have to carry around for that improbable "just in case" scenario.
The cheapest/simplest way (and recommended by Klaus Savier when using dual Lightspeeds)
is to put in a SLA 4.5 ah backup battery. These can be had for $10-30
from what I've seen online, but they weigh 4-5 lbs, and should probably be changed
every other year to make sure the capacity is there if you ever need it.
Lithium Ion sounds appealing due to it's light weight, but as you pointed out,
charging is not so simple (Eric Jones, are you out there? Weren't you working
on a charging management module for Lithium Ions in airplanes?). Not sure
about NiMH...they seem to be getting more popular in lots of consumer stuff.
Too expensive? Charging issues??
But anyway...you are recommending NiCads. My experience with them has been limited
to R/C models and hasn't been too stellar. I always tried to cycle them
properly but even then they seemed to go bad just as fast as the lead acids I've
used (2-4 years). But let's say, ignoring price for a moment, I wanted a 4-5
ah, 12 V NiCad pack. Can you recommend any specific sources to get such an
animal? Google didn't turn up too much for me, and what little I found (in the
$150-200 range) had no specs for weight. And if I were to install a 12V NiCad
pack, can I just drop it in place of the current location for my backup battery,
always having it on charge from the alternator via a Schottky, and expect
it to perform well if needed? How many years would I be able to expect reliable
operation from it before needing replacement?
If I have to replace it every other year (like I would the SLA), and it costs 5-10X
the price and only saves a couple pounds, it obviously doesn't make much
sense. If it only needs to be replaced every decade, then the weight savings
plus reduced hassle of frequent replacements makes the price look more attractive....
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D finishing....
Time: 05:33:03 PM PST US
From: Bill Dube <bdube@al.noaa.gov>
Subject: Re: RV-List: batteries
--> RV-List message posted by: Bill Dube <bdube@al.noaa.gov>
At 05:34 PM 12/2/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Tracy Crook" <lors01@msn.com>
>
>
>I'll have to go look at the model number but it is a common (large >size) motorcycle
battery from NAPA. They supply several models of >the same physical size
that vary from 17 to 22 AH and I picked the >highest one. Price was highest
too, about $65 as I recall. Trouble >is I don't know what the discharge rate
was for that spec. >Generally, the faster you drain a lead acid battery the
lower its >rating goes, so the difference in ratings might not even be real
if >they used different discharge rates.
There is a formula you can use called "Peukert's Equation" that allows
you to calculate the amp-hr capacity of the battery at any discharge rate. To
set the two constants in the equation, you must know the actual capacity at two
different discharge rates.
Here is a link to a Peukert calculator:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/8679/battery.html
>It takes about 12 amps to keep my controllers, pumps, ignition coils >(4) and
injectors fed. The 22 AH should last well over 1 hr but it >doesn't.
The amp-hr specification is at the 20 hr discharge rate. Thus, if you
had a draw of 1.1 amps, the battery would supply 22 amp-hrs over the 20 hours
that it took to run it flat. If instead, you pulled 22 amps from it, it would
might last only 15 or 20 minutes before it was dead.
"Stiff" batteries with high CCAs and low internal resistance do not suffer
as badly from this problem. Also, NiCad batteries and Li-Ion batteries lose
very little capacity at modestly high discharges. That is another reason that
they make excellent back-up type batteries.
> The 22 AH rating is probably at a very low current draw. The CCA >rating is
pretty low on this battery but the Mazda rotary doesn't >take much torque to
crank. No valve train to operate and only 3 >moving parts.
If you were to get a battery with a greater CCA, but a slightly lower
amp-hr capacity, it would probably run your airplane longer without an alternator.
>My thanks to Bill Dube for the quick course on batteries. Just the >info I needed
to make an intelligent choice for the -8 I'm building. >I'll probably spring
for the ni-cads and leave the motorcycle battery >in the -4 test mule.
Some of the aircraft style starting batteries can produce
startlingly high CCA's, last nearly forever, and have excellent "dead
alternator" capacity for their weight. They cost a fortune, however.
Typically five to eight times the cost of a similar CCA lead-acid battery.
Ouch!
If you are interested in just the one hour capacity, and are not going
to use the NiCad to start the airplane, the cost is not as painful. For the same
one-hour capacity, a flooded NiCad will weigh about 1/2 as much as a lead-acid
battery and will cost _just_ three to four times as much.
Aircraft starting NiCads are often available used and are often in very
good condition used. However, there are many models and styles and they all
don't have good CCA ratings. You can ruin NiCads if you stray beyond their peak
amperage (discharge) ratings. Also, some folks try to sell worn-out NiCads,
or even give them away, because they are expensive to "throw" away as they contain
cadmium. Load test before you buy a used NiCad!
If you are planning a two battery system for reliability, probably the
best choice would be an AGM for starting and a NiCad for back-up.
Message 15
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| Subject: | WTB - Rv-4 Empenage and Fuselage |
--> RV-List message posted by: Ron Patterson <scc_ron@yahoo.com>
I'm looking for RV-4 fuse and empenage....((Have The WINGS!!..Have the engine...
Need the rest of the airframe.))
Looking to buy a never started, or barely started but extremely well built -4 project.
need the Fuselage, Finishing Kit and the Empenage. Trying to build a Hybrid
-4. Also need to find a fixed pitch 3-blade prop for an RV-4 O-320. If you
know of where I can buy one please email me.
Please call Ron @ 510-421-2316.
or email scc_ron@yahoo.com
Message 16
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Bob U." <rv3@comcast.net>
Bill Dube wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Bill Dube <bdube@al.noaa.gov>
>
>At 08:00 AM 12/3/2003 -0800, you wrote:
>
>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: a flyer <aflyer@direcway.com>
>>
>>Professor Bill, while you are at it, where do the nickel-metal hydride
>>batteries fit in? I often see these used for rechargeable and portable apps
>>like the Segway.
>>
>>
>
>
> The two main disadvantages of NiMH is they have high self
>discharge and they contain cadmium, a toxic metal. The self discharge is
>high enough that they typically go flat in few weeks. This is not really
>acceptable for a starting battery, especially in a General Aviation
>aircraft that may be left in the hangar for a month or more.
>
=========================================
See...
http://www.allegromicro.com/techpub2/cadex/index32.htm
The NiMH is currently labeled "environmentally friendly".
NiCd and NiMH both have high self discharge rates.
Additionally, the memory of Nicads is a bummer to live with, requiring total
discharge from time to time and careful attention NOT to overcharge, so....
Nicads are out and NiMH are in for my Airmap, Garmin 295 and all
digital cameras. Goodbye AA NiCds... FOREVER.
Bob
Message 17
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--> RV-List message posted by: Bill Dube <bdube@al.noaa.gov>
>
>The cheapest/simplest way (and recommended by Klaus Savier when using dual
>Lightspeeds) is to put in a SLA 4.5 ah backup battery. These can be had
>for $10-30 from what I've seen online, but they weigh 4-5 lbs, and should
>probably be changed every other year to make sure the capacity is there if
>you ever need it.
Yes, they would tend to age more quickly if not cycled periodically.
> Lithium Ion sounds appealing due to it's light weight, but as you
> pointed out, charging is not so simple (Eric Jones, are you out there?
> Weren't you working on a charging management module for Lithium Ions in
> airplanes?). Not sure about NiMH...they seem to be getting more popular
> in lots of consumer stuff. Too expensive? Charging issues??
Could work. Not too expensive. No major charging issues.
>But anyway...you are recommending NiCads. My experience with them has
>been limited to R/C models and hasn't been too stellar. I always tried to
>cycle them properly but even then they seemed to go bad just as fast as
>the lead acids I've used (2-4 years).
You are torturing them in typical RC use. The chargers are not at
all gentle and are not at all intelligent. Also, the RC batteries are
designed for low cost and high power, not long life span.
The 4 amp-hr pack on this page looks inexpensive enough. Doesn't
say the weight, however:
http://www.aaaim.com/cgi-local/shop991/shop.pl/SID=90211652537/page=REGS.htm#NCBP2100
Of course you can get them new:
http://www.saftbatteries.com/020-MS_Aviation/20-30-10_technology.asp
>But let's say, ignoring price for a moment, I wanted a 4-5 ah, 12 V NiCad
>pack. Can you recommend any specific sources to get such an
>animal? Google didn't turn up too much for me, and what little I found
>(in the $150-200 range) had no specs for weight. And if I were to install
>a 12V NiCad pack, can I just drop it in place of the current location for
>my backup battery, always having it on charge from the alternator via a
>Schottky, and expect it to perform well if needed? How many years would I
>be able to expect reliable operation from it before needing replacement?
>
>If I have to replace it every other year (like I would the SLA), and it
>costs 5-10X the price and only saves a couple pounds, it obviously doesn't
>make much sense. If it only needs to be replaced every decade, then the
>weight savings plus reduced hassle of frequent replacements makes the
>price look more attractive....
High quality flooded (wet) type NiCads will last for many many
years. The less expensive "dry" type that is commonly used for consumer
products will last for a couple of years, maybe longer.
I haven't tested any of them, but I would suspect that the
high-quality power tool NiCad packs, like Bosch, might be something to try
out. It would certainly be easy to find a replacement. :-)
It would probably be a good idea, no matter what type of battery
selected, to cycle test the back-up battery as part of the annual inspection.
Message 18
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OhioValleyRVators@yahoogroups.com
--> RV-List message posted by: "Al Grajek" <algrajek@msn.com>
Does anyone have any good pictures of the completed baffles ( particularly
the air seals), on the 8 or any RV? The instructions leave a lot to be
desired. I cant tell how to trim the seals once they are done.
Thanks
Al Grajek
Baffled!
Shop online for kids toys by age group, price range, and toy category at
MSN Shopping. No waiting for a clerk to help you! http://shopping.msn.com
Message 19
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--> RV-List message posted by: Bill Dube <bdube@al.noaa.gov>
>
> > The two main disadvantages of NiMH is they have high self
> >discharge and they contain cadmium, a toxic metal. The self discharge is
> >high enough that they typically go flat in few weeks. This is not really
> >acceptable for a starting battery, especially in a General Aviation
> >aircraft that may be left in the hangar for a month or more.
> >
>=========================================
>See...
>http://www.allegromicro.com/techpub2/cadex/index32.htm
>
>The NiMH is currently labeled "environmentally friendly".
Ah. They no longer contain toxic metals. Good.
>NiCd and NiMH both have high self discharge rates.
All NiMH have at least 1% to 2% self discharge per day. Some are
even worse. Thus, they go to 50% SOC in about a month, maybe less depending
on the temperature.
AGM lead-acid batteries will typically take a year to self
discharge to 50% SOC.
Typical NiCad batteries take 4 to 5 months to get to 50% SOC.
("Battery Reference Book, TR Crompton, 2nd edition, 1995,
Butterworth-Heinemann)
This all depends strongly on temperature of course.
>Additionally, the memory of Nicads is a bummer to live with, requiring total
>discharge from time to time and careful attention NOT to overcharge, so....
None of this is correct.
"The memory effect does not manifest itself when the cells are
subjected to random charge/discharge regimens." according to the reference
sited above. If you give the cells the recommended amount of overcharge,
the memory effect is erased. Only sintered-plate cells exhibit memory
effects. "Pocket plate" type cells, like you find in most consumer
applications, do NOT develop the memory effect under any circumstances.
Indeed, putting a NiCad battery though a conditioning cycle will
increase it's capacity. (I could bore you with the details about
undercharge of the negative plate...) Most folks think that their battery
has developed a "memory" problem, but it is a straightforward loss of
capacity, not the memory effect. Generally, this loss of capacity is caused
by inadequate overcharge, believe it or not.
You can. indeed, get full a-hr capacity from a battery that has
developed memory problems. All that happens is there is a larger voltage
drop than usual during the "memory" portion of the discharge.
While it is not harmful, and is likely to be useful, to fully
discharge and then recharge NiCads, they really don't _need_ this.
NiCads of all sorts NEED to be overcharged slightly to fully
charge the negative plate. Generally, a 5% to 10% overcharge is
recommended. The typical sealed NiCad that is in your cordless drill can
take a LOT of overcharge without damage. You typically bulk charge a sealed
NiCad at an amperage that is 1/10 the amp-hr capacity. You can grossly
overcharge them with 1/100 the A-hr capacity indefinitely without damage.
Conversely, you must be very careful not to grossly overcharge
NiMH batteries. You will lose capacity if you do. That is why some types of
simplistic NiCad chargers will damage NiMH batteries. You also must be
careful not to grossly overcharge AGMs as they will lose too much water and
will thus lose capacity.
>Nicads are out and NiMH are in for my Airmap, Garmin 295 and all
>digital cameras. Goodbye AA NiCds... FOREVER.
NiMH batteries do have about 50% more capacity than NiCads of the
same size and weight. That is the only advantage.
Message 20
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Tracy Crook" <lors01@msn.com>
The -8 will be powered with a 3 rotor 20B engine. No turbo for me. The 20B was
turbocharged in the Cosmo Luce (Japan only car) and rated at 350 HP. It will
make about 270 HP when normally aspirated.
Sounds like I'm planning on a go-fast airplane but its not. The -8 will have longer
wings (26' span), an Ox system and will cruise at 20,000 ft where the engine
will make only 115 HP. It should go fairly fast but burn relatively little
fuel. Down low it should out-climb Rockets.
Tracy Crook
----- Original Message -----
From: kempthornes
--> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes <kempthornes@earthlink.net>
Hi Tracy,
Tell us what will power the RV8? Will it be a turbo three rotor?
hal
Message 21
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<rv8list@yahoogroups.com>, <OhioValleyRVators@yahoogroups.com>
| Subject: | Re: RV 8 Baffles |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
http://vondane.com/rv8a/engine/baffles.htm
http://www.vafml.org/members/rlynn/page2.htm
-Bill VonDane
RV-8A - Colorado
www.vondane.com
www.creativair.com
www.epanelbuilder.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Al Grajek" <algrajek@msn.com>
<rv8list@yahoogroups.com>; <OhioValleyRVators@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RV-List: RV 8 Baffles
--> RV-List message posted by: "Al Grajek" <algrajek@msn.com>
Does anyone have any good pictures of the completed baffles ( particularly
the air seals), on the 8 or any RV? The instructions leave a lot to be
desired. I cant tell how to trim the seals once they are done.
Thanks
Al Grajek
Baffled!
Message 22
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--> RV-List message posted by: Dougpsr@aol.com
Hi folks. Anyone know of locking fuel caps that will fit Van's tanks? We are
already flying RV8. If not, are there any after market non-locking caps or is
Van's the only source?
BTW, where can I get them engraved?
Thanks,
Doug Preston
RV8 N127EK
EKY
Message 23
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| Subject: | WTB - Rv-4 Empenage and Fuselage |
--> RV-List message posted by: Ron Patterson <scc_ron@yahoo.com>
I'm looking for RV-4 fuse and empenage....((Have The WINGS!!..Have the
engine... Need the rest of the airframe.))
Looking to buy a never started, or barely started but extremely well
built -4 project. need the Fuselage, Finishing Kit and the Empenage.
Trying to build a Hybrid -4. Also need to find a fixed pitch 3-blade prop
for an RV-4 O-320. If you know of where I can buy one please email me.
Please call Ron @ 510-421-2316.
or email scc_ron@yahoo.com
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Airmap: anyone have newest models? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "William Davis" <rvpilot@access4less.net>
Bill,
I have flown some with a buddy's 500. The display is not as white and
contrasty as the pictures indicate, more like grey & black. I found it hard
to read unless the sun is shining directly on the display, but then, these
eyes are getting old too. The software is not very intuitive, takes some
learning to get it down. It sure does a lot for the price though.
Bill RV-8 N48WD
----- Original Message -----
From: <SportAV8R@aol.com>
Subject: RV-List: Airmap: anyone have newest models?
> --> RV-List message posted by: SportAV8R@aol.com
>
> I'd like a field report from amyone with experience with the Lowrance
Airmap 500 or 1000 models. Thinking about replacing my aging Airmap 300...
Are the newer displays really as white and contrasty as the pictures
indicate? My black-on-green Airmap 300 display is getting hard on these
aging eyes, even with bifocal Serengetti's! Also would like to know if the
1000 is really 2.5 inches thick (as the website indicates). That seems
unbelievable (does it contain its own Odyssey 17AH battery or something??)
but if true it would allow me to eliminate the 1000 from consideration
without further ado (if I wanted a brick to attach to my panel, I could get
one more cheaply at the hardware store ;-)
>
> I think the 500's form factor wil allow direct placement in (on) my panel
where I currently have the 300 velcro'd in place. It also looks like this
would be a decent, though not ideal, car-travel GPS as well, helping me
justify the cost to the wife. Before I shell out 425 bucks
(airportpilotshop.com)for an Airmap 500, or twice that for the 1000, I'd
love to hear some feedback from actual users, especially if you're having to
peer through +1.5 diopters to see your digital instrumentation as I have
begun doing in the last year.
>
> -Bill B
> RV-6A
> do not archive
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Propeller performance testing |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Gordon and Marge" <gcomfo@tc3net.com>
-
Subject: Re: RV-List: Propeller performance testing
--> RV-List message posted by: LeastDrag93066@aol.com
According to the efficiency data provided to me from MT Propeller, the
MT
Propeller efficiency almost level from 2300 RPM to 2700 RPM.
Jim Ayers
Jim: This is good to know. It implies that the MT doesn't have the
performance drop above 2500 that the Hartzell seems to have. If you do
get them to build what you refer to as a racing prop, it would be
interesting to know how it compares with others at cruise rpm's.
Gordon Comfort
N363GC
Message 26
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| Subject: | EIS, prop limits? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
I flew a rental recently that had a digital tach, whose red light
reminded me when I was loitering within the "bad" RPM limits of the
prop. Has anyone programmed this functionality into their EIS engine
monitor? Is it possible? Recommended?
-
Larry Bowen, RV-8 finish
2003 - The year of fli... nevermind
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
Message 27
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Keith Vasey" <keith@galvinflying.com>
Hi all. I have decided to use some WEMAC type eyeballs that require a 1"
attachment. I will, of course, need to attach the other end to Van's 2" NACA
inlets.
I'm guessing that what I need is 1" scat tube and an adapter for the Van's
end or simply an adapter for the WEMAC end and use Van's 2" scat tube. Does
anybody have an idea where I can find the 1" tubing and/or the adapter?
Thanks,
Keith Vasey
RV8
Seattle
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Ken Barto tow bars |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Craig Warner" <cwarner@twcny.rr.com>
Don't know his latest e-mail, but his home phone number is 315-622-2072. he
is usually home evenings but goes to bed early (9:00 PM Eastern time). He is
still making tow bars as of last week.
Best regards
Craig Warner RV6 still buildin
----- Original Message -----
From: <DWENSING@aol.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Ken Barto tow bars
> --> RV-List message posted by: DWENSING@aol.com
>
> Sent a message to Ken Barto for info on his tow bars at address obtained
in
> the archives. Message came back. Anyone know his current email address?
Does he
> still make tow bars? Need one for 6A with new style wheel pant?
> Dale Ensing
> do not archive
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: batteries/Rockets going Up |
--> RV-List message posted by: Boyd Braem <bcbraem@comcast.net>
Woah!, there Tracy--Out climb a Rocket!? Stop by the other side of the
state (Venice (VNC), FL--on the Gulf) and we'll do a little
head-to-head or, more likely, head-to-TAIL. I get an honest 4,200
ft/min when I point my nose at God (like he/she could really care!),
but, you never know, maybe he/she likes the attention. I also have 160
hp at 50% power. I get about 2,500 ft in a straight vertical climb
before I have to kick rudder, and pivot, on a really good day--seems
like it used to be more, before my divorce--but, I digress--still, I
love that woman, so much--and I'm sure you guys really want to hear
about it. Yeah.
Boyd.
Super 6
Venice, FL
On Wednesday, December 3, 2003, at 05:24 PM, Tracy Crook wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Tracy Crook" <lors01@msn.com>
>
>
> The -8 will be powered with a 3 rotor 20B engine. No turbo for me.
> The 20B was turbocharged in the Cosmo Luce (Japan only car) and rated
> at 350 HP. It will make about 270 HP when normally aspirated.
>
> Sounds like I'm planning on a go-fast airplane but its not. The -8
> will have longer wings (26' span), an Ox system and will cruise at
> 20,000 ft where the engine will make only 115 HP. It should go fairly
> fast but burn relatively little fuel. Down low it should out-climb
> Rockets.
>
> Tracy Crook
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: kempthornes
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes <kempthornes@earthlink.net>
>
> Hi Tracy,
>
> Tell us what will power the RV8? Will it be a turbo three rotor?
>
> hal
>
>
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> >
>
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Tank building advice |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
Finally got around to leak testing my tanks, 3 years after building
them. You want to let that proseal get good and cured, you know... And
they both leak! And both in the same place. I see now what I did
wrong, and here's hoping others can learn from my screw-up.
The leaks are in the corners, where the aft edge of the end ribs connect
to the rear baffle. There are a total of 8 such places (4 per tank) and
6 of them leak like seives! I could hear, and in a few cases feel the
air coming out. No need for soapy water! The solution has proved to
be, of course, more proseal, in the form of a large fillet inside the
tank, and more outside in the leak areas. I really should have done
this during tank assembly, and yes, I did use a lot of proseal (1 1/3
cans) to do the tanks.
The good news is that there are no other leaks in either tank (tested
with air pressure and soapy water) so I must have done something right,
at least. Anybody getting ready to seal their tanks, pay close
attention to these corners!
Jeff Point
RV-6 finishing
Milwaukee WI
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