Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 10:56 AM - Re: Jacking up gear legs for wheel mtnce (Rich Crosley)
2. 11:15 AM - Re: Ballistic parachutes on RVs (Paul Besing)
3. 11:16 AM - Re: Riveting wing leading edge ribs...anyone use pop rivets? (Cammie Patch)
4. 11:16 AM - Re: F-631 cabin frame (Jim Bower)
5. 11:17 AM - Plate nuts or nutplates? (Paul Besing)
6. 11:24 AM - Re: Elevator bolt ?s / Misc. (Radomir Zaric)
7. 11:29 AM - Update: Matronics Internet Connection... (Matt Dralle)
8. 12:27 PM - Re: Ballistic parachutes on RVs (linn walters)
9. 12:30 PM - Re: Ballistic parachutes (rv6tc)
10. 12:46 PM - Re: Ballistic parachutes on RVs (Jim Oke)
11. 12:54 PM - Re: F-631 cabin frame (dcarter@datarecall.net)
12. 01:12 PM - Re: Ballistic parachutes on RVs (Jeff Point)
13. 01:35 PM - Re: Ballistic parachutes tests (Frank van der Hulst (Staff WG))
14. 01:46 PM - Re: Ballistic parachutes on RVs (Mickey Coggins)
15. 01:52 PM - Re: Ballistic parachutes (Kysh)
16. 01:55 PM - Re: Ballistic parachutes on RVs (Cammie Patch)
17. 02:11 PM - Re: Ballistic parachutes on RVs (Brian Denk)
18. 02:32 PM - Re: Update: Matronics Internet Connection... (Tom & Cathy Ervin)
19. 02:48 PM - Re: Ballistic parachutes on RVs (linn walters)
20. 02:51 PM - Re: Ballistic parachutes on RVs (Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club)
21. 03:04 PM - Re: Ballistic parachutes on RVs (Boyd Braem)
22. 03:20 PM - Re: Ballistic parachutes on RVs (Terry Watson)
23. 04:17 PM - Rv Christmas (austin)
24. 05:51 PM - Re: Ballistic parachutes on RVs (Bob U.)
25. 06:46 PM - Re: Ballistic parachutes on RVs (Cammie Patch)
26. 07:29 PM - RV-6 wings for sale (Doug Weiler)
27. 07:54 PM - Re: Ballistic parachutes on RVs (Kysh)
28. 09:22 PM - Re: Ballistic parachutes on RVs (Genev E Reed)
29. 09:59 PM - Re: Rv Christmas (Kirsten Lacy)
30. 09:59 PM - Re: Rv Christmas (Ken Cantrell)
31. 10:29 PM - Re: Ballistic parachutes on RVs (Paul Besing)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Jacking up gear legs for wheel mtnce |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Rich Crosley" <dirtrider@qnet.com>
The axles that came with my finish kit from Van's for my "8" are solid
axles. They only have a 3/4 dia. hole 3/4" deep. Not enough area to pick
up 1/2 an airplane, I wouldn't think. You must have drilled axles. If
you are using a 7/8" bar down the center of a 1.25 axle, I think I'd be a
little concerned about the axle wall thickness. I know on Cessna 170's you
check to see if the airplane has solid or drilled axles. A broken axle on
landing will ruin your day .
Rich Crosley
RV-8, engine, Palmdale, CA
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Ballistic parachutes on RVs |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Paul Besing" <azpilot@extremezone.com>
BRS are for wannabe pilots who have no confidence in their ability to handle
an emergency, or neglect to stay proficient in IFR operation. Practice
engine out procedures, dead stick landings (almost anyway), stay IFR
current, and maintain your aircraft properly. Don't do aerobatics your butt
can't cash, and most of all FLY THE AIRPLANE, don't let a BRS fly it for
you! Merry Christmas, Nomex suit donned. Flame on!!
do not archive this rediculous nonsense!
Paul Besing
RV-6A Sold (RV-10 Soon)
http://www.lacodeworks.com/besing
Kitlog Builder's Log Software
http://www.kitlog.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Ballistic parachutes on RVs
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
>
> Fully agreed. BRS is a total waste of time, money, and useful load. I
can
> just see it now..."oh don't mind that big lump of stuff back there Mr.
First
> Time RV rider, it's just an EXPLOSIVE parachute that I hope will never go
> off when I key the mike or get near a thundershower."
>
>
> Brian Denk
> RV8 N94BD
> no stinkin' explosive charged parachutes on my airplane.
>
> do not archive
>
>
> >Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 13:27:56 -0800
> >
> >--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
> >
> >Very few accidents in RVs are such that a ballistic a chute would have
> >helped. I realize that there were a
> >couple structure failures that would have MAYBE saved a pilot but over
> >all you are wasting your time.
> >IMO!!!
> >
> >Jerry
> >
> >Jeff Peltier wrote:
> >
> > >--> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Peltier
> ><jeffpeltier@brsparachutes.com>
> > >
> > >Hello RV owners,
> > >Due to the very high interest exhibited by Vans owners over the years,
> >we've
> > >currently entered into the design phase regarding the installation of
BRS
> > >ballistic emergency parachute systems to Vans RV-6,-7 and -9. We have
> > >purchased a new fuselage for the purpose of static structural pull
tests,
> > >and may be interested in acquiring other fuselages or parts for the
> >various
> > >tests required of this effort. We are also open to any questions or
> > >comments that you may have regarding parachute installation on Vans
> > >aircraft. Any input will be appreciated. We would really like to hear
> >from
> > >you.
> > >
> > >
> > >Jeff Peltier
> > >Design Engineer
> > >BRS INC.
> > >(651)457-7491
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Riveting wing leading edge ribs...anyone use pop rivets? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Cammie Patch" <cammie@sunvalley.net>
On the leading edge installation, I used solid rivets where I could get a
good one, and pop rivets where the quality of my blind rivet installation
would be in doubt. The way I see it, a good blind rivet (as long as it's
structurally ok) is better than a badly installed solid rivet. I am more
interested in a good strong airframe than a champion aircraft.
Cammie
--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Howell <jehowell@tampabay.rr.com>
I'm having the expected trouble riveting the leading edge ribs on my
RV-7 wings....the list archives spell out various techniques involving
grinding down offset rivet sets, use of hockey tape, manufacturing
special bucking bars to enable back riveting etc. It occurs to me that
it would be extremely simple to just use pop rivets. Has anyone done
this? Would there be reduced structural integrity? Is there any
reason not to, other than one's sense of aesthetics? Is there a
recommended pop-rivet spec to use?
Thanks,
Jerry
RV-7A
Wings
Tampa, FL
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: F-631 cabin frame |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Bower" <rvbuilder@hotmail.com>
David,
Thanks for the help! After reading the replies to my post, and doing a
little more thinking, I reached the following conclusion:
I am going to jig those parts so as to eliminate the gap at top center. In
so doing, the height dimension is exactly 1/4" shorter than called on the
plans. HOWEVER, the plans show the F-631 dimension from the top of the
F-605 to the top of the F-631 (measured on a slant). This means that if the
631 itself is shorter, no big deal. Just compensate by moving it up on the
feet until the correct distance has been achieved.
As to the 1/4" distance from the roll bar top to the top of the brace...my
plans still have 1/4" called out. I have seen various treatments of that
topic, from 0 to the full 1/4". If I am not mistaken, that gap is really
meaningless as the top of that brace does not contact anything, right? (Or
wrong?)
Happy new year
Jim
>From: dcarter@datarecall.net
>Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: F-631 cabin frame
>Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2003 00:51:41 GMT
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: dcarter@datarecall.net
>
>Jim, does your plans say position the brace 1/4 inch below top center of
>roll
>bar? If so, then Van's has again ignored "free support" from builders who
>point out errors in their drawings. If it shows 13/16ths or something on
>that
>order, then they have fixed the error.
>
>I used Intellicad to create a the side view of fuselage in that area and
>the
>roll bar and brace, etc. Sent it to Van's - never a response.
>
>I'm away from home for Christmas until the following Sat, Sun, or Mon so
>don't
>have my exact measurement.
>
>You are on the right track laying out a pattern on the workbench and
>putting
>in physical blocks to hold the width dimension for the two "feet". You
>need a
>line and block at top center, with a line below to show the height "from
>feet
>to top" - which you have to calculate with trig since they don't show that
>dimension in the plane of the roll bar.
>
>Mine is finished and fits perfectly on the fuselage.
>
>Give me a call on my cell phone 409-718-8518 or at my son's home
>512-266-6955.
>
>David Carter
>RV-6 tip-up
>Nederland, Texas
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Bower" <rvbuilder@hotmail.com>
> >
> > I am proceeding very cautiously with the F-631 cabin frame (roll bar)
>for my
> > RV-6A tip-up. The plans call out a nominal width measurement and what
>seems
> > to be a strict height measurement. My fuselage is slightly wider at the
> > F-605 bulkhead than normal, but I set up the F-631 width to compensate
>for
> > that. To do this, I attached blocks to my work surface that define the
> > width and height.
> >
> > The problem is this: As expected, there is a gap at the top center
> > (shouldn't be a problem), but at the bottom, the inboard corners are
>about
> > 1/8" higher than the outboard corners, which prevents the F-631 from
>lying
> > flat on the structure.
> >
> > Should I trim this angle so the entire bottom of the F-631 sits flat?
>If I
> > do, the overall height measurement will be a little lower than is called
> > out. Am I worried too much?
> >
> > Thanks in advance for the help, and I want to wish everybody a Merry
> > Christmas (or whatever you celebrate this time of year), and a Happy New
> > Year.
> >
> > Jim Bower
> > St. Louis
> > RV-6A N143DJ
>
>
>---------------------------------------------
>This message was sent using EXP Webmail.
>http://www.exp.net
>
>
Get reliable dial-up Internet access now with our limited-time introductory
Message 5
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| Subject: | Plate nuts or nutplates? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Paul Besing" <azpilot@extremezone.com>
So is it nutplates, or plate nuts?? I seem to see and hear nutplates used
more often then plate nuts. Merry Christmas food for thought...
do not archive
Paul Besing
RV-6A Sold (RV-10 Soon)
http://www.lacodeworks.com/besing
Kitlog Builder's Log Software
http://www.kitlog.com
Message 6
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| Subject: | Elevator bolt ?s / Misc. |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Radomir Zaric" <radomirz@vitez.net>
Here are the first two:
* bolt/nut part number that attaches elevator c-weight (new style)
AN509-10R24 screw
AN960-10 washer
AN365-1032 nut
(two of each per elevator)
* bolt/nut that attaches elevator to HS
AN3-7A bolt
AN960-10 washer
AN365-1032 nut
(also 2 of each per elevator).
HTH.
Radomir
Message 7
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| Subject: | Update: Matronics Internet Connection... |
--> RV-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Listers,
First let me apologize for the discontinuity of List service over the last
two days. There is a faulty transmit pair between here and the "B-Box" and
I have been having a heck of a time trying to get the phone company
motivated to fix it. I am now trying to get them to take one of the analog
phone circuits to temporary get the T1 line circuit up. They are
indicating that to repair the existing T1 circuit they must dig up a
cross-connect in the street which will require a Permit from the City! Who
knows how long that will take to complete.
For now, connectivity is intermittent, but working. Email should flow
fine, although web server access may be a little sporadic. I'm working as
hard as I can at getting the situation resolved, but with the holiday and
all, its just been a nightmare.
I will post more information as it becomes available... Again, my
apologies; I thought upgrading to a commercial-grade T1 would elevate my
connectivity issues once and for all...
Wish me luck!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Admin.
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
do not archive
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Ballistic parachutes on RVs |
--> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
Paul Besing wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Paul Besing" <azpilot@extremezone.com>
>
>BRS are for wannabe pilots who have no confidence in their ability to handle
>an emergency, or neglect to stay proficient in IFR operation. Practice
>engine out procedures, dead stick landings (almost anyway), stay IFR
>current, and maintain your aircraft properly. Don't do aerobatics your butt
>can't cash, and most of all FLY THE AIRPLANE, don't let a BRS fly it for
>you! Merry Christmas, Nomex suit donned. Flame on!!
>
>do not archive this rediculous nonsense!
>
>Paul Besing
>RV-6A Sold (RV-10 Soon)
>http://www.lacodeworks.com/besing
>Kitlog Builder's Log Software
>http://www.kitlog.com
>
Good advice. Instead of an expensive and gross weight-consuming device
to save our butt because we did something stupid (whatever it may be!)
I'd rather invest in some technology or training to prevent it. Become
proactive, instead of reactive.
Linn
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Ballistic parachutes |
--> RV-List message posted by: "rv6tc" <rv6tc@myawai.com>
Weight, cost, complexity.
Keith
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
. Seems like a good idea to provide another measure of safety and another
escape route for something unexpected. Why not!
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Ballistic parachutes on RVs |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Oke <wjoke@shaw.ca>
Oh, come on, surely everyone knows BRS is for those pilots who can do forced
landings until the cows come home but who worry about the day a wing falls
off and all their S-H pilot skills cannot recover them. Sort of the ultimate
set of suspenders to go with multiple belts. :-)
If someone feels like paying the cost in $$, weight, performance, danger of
inadvertent deployment, etc. for a BRS, let 'em go for it.
Jim Oke
Wpg., MB
P.S. Enough to warm the Nomex, Paul ?? :-)
Merry Christmas To All
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Besing" <azpilot@extremezone.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Ballistic parachutes on RVs
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Paul Besing" <azpilot@extremezone.com>
>
> BRS are for wannabe pilots who have no confidence in their ability to
handle
> an emergency, or neglect to stay proficient in IFR operation. Practice
> engine out procedures, dead stick landings (almost anyway), stay IFR
> current, and maintain your aircraft properly. Don't do aerobatics your
butt
> can't cash, and most of all FLY THE AIRPLANE, don't let a BRS fly it for
> you! Merry Christmas, Nomex suit donned. Flame on!!
>
> do not archive this rediculous nonsense!
>
> Paul Besing
> RV-6A Sold (RV-10 Soon)
> http://www.lacodeworks.com/besing
> Kitlog Builder's Log Software
> http://www.kitlog.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Ballistic parachutes on RVs
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
> >
> > Fully agreed. BRS is a total waste of time, money, and useful load. I
> can
> > just see it now..."oh don't mind that big lump of stuff back there Mr.
> First
> > Time RV rider, it's just an EXPLOSIVE parachute that I hope will never
go
> > off when I key the mike or get near a thundershower."
> >
> >
> > Brian Denk
> > RV8 N94BD
> > no stinkin' explosive charged parachutes on my airplane.
> >
> > do not archive
> >
> >
> > >Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 13:27:56 -0800
> > >
> > >--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
> > >
> > >Very few accidents in RVs are such that a ballistic a chute would have
> > >helped. I realize that there were a
> > >couple structure failures that would have MAYBE saved a pilot but over
> > >all you are wasting your time.
> > >IMO!!!
> > >
> > >Jerry
> > >
> > >Jeff Peltier wrote:
> > >
> > > >--> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Peltier
> > ><jeffpeltier@brsparachutes.com>
> > > >
> > > >Hello RV owners,
> > > >Due to the very high interest exhibited by Vans owners over the
years,
> > >we've
> > > >currently entered into the design phase regarding the installation of
> BRS
> > > >ballistic emergency parachute systems to Vans RV-6,-7 and -9. We have
> > > >purchased a new fuselage for the purpose of static structural pull
> tests,
> > > >and may be interested in acquiring other fuselages or parts for the
> > >various
> > > >tests required of this effort. We are also open to any questions or
> > > >comments that you may have regarding parachute installation on Vans
> > > >aircraft. Any input will be appreciated. We would really like to
hear
> > >from
> > > >you.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Jeff Peltier
> > > >Design Engineer
> > > >BRS INC.
> > > >(651)457-7491
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: F-631 cabin frame |
--> RV-List message posted by: dcarter@datarecall.net
Jim,
1. Gap at top center is not a "strength" issue. Can have a gap - the 2
plates that connect the halves provide 100% of the strength. Butting the ends
together adds nothing, so don't worry about the gap, if you should find, on
reflection (about things to follow), that you might need a bit of a gap.
2. About the top brace distance down from top: It is true that is has
nothing to do with the canopy material. However, it really is quite a big
deal in getting the brace to hit the right spot on the baggage bulkhead and
for the bottoms of the 631 roll bar to be positioned correctly for-aft so as
to be CENTERED over the seat back AND some piece under it that you have to
find on the drawings - otherwise, edge distances are if'y (luck or not).
- I went to a flyin and observed a flying RV-6 with the feet about 3/4
inch too far forward and therefore the bolts coming straight up thru seat back
stuff was NOT through all the structural stuff - it was only through a single
piece of sheet. (wish I had the drawing in front of me)
- From the drawings, I drew the underlying stuff on top of the seat back
to show the boundaries of where the feet could go and drew a centerline, then
drew the shape of the roll bar feet angles in that area to help me position
the roll bar correctly. Then all kind of convoluted measuring to check ht -
the seat back brace sags in the middle where the ht dimention is supposed to
be checked, so I shimmed and. . . . . .
- If you wait until I get home Sat or Mon I can tell you exactly what the
dimension is for brace down from top. Use that and then trim bottoms if
needed and everything fits fine - in the areas you have drawn.
- In any case, you may have to trim off part of the inner edge of the
bottoms of the roll bar to get the height dimension correct. There really is
no way from the plans to get all this stuff right - jigging like you are doing
is the key - plus don't shy away from the simple trig to get the height
dimension the plans don't give you.
3. Just a word of caution about "moving the roll bar bottoms up on the feet
(angles)" to get the height dimension called out in the plans: There is the
normal issue of edge distance at top of feet/angles and bottom of roll bar
ends that will impose some degree of limit on how much you can trim the feet.
David
ph away from home = 512-266-6955 & cell 409-718-8518
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Bower" <rvbuilder@hotmail.com>
>
> David,
>
> Thanks for the help! After reading the replies to my post, and doing a
> little more thinking, I reached the following conclusion:
>
> I am going to jig those parts so as to eliminate the gap at top center. In
> so doing, the height dimension is exactly 1/4" shorter than called on the
> plans. HOWEVER, the plans show the F-631 dimension from the top of the
> F-605 to the top of the F-631 (measured on a slant). This means that if the
> 631 itself is shorter, no big deal. Just compensate by moving it up on the
> feet until the correct distance has been achieved.
>
> As to the 1/4" distance from the roll bar top to the top of the brace...my
> plans still have 1/4" called out. I have seen various treatments of that
> topic, from 0 to the full 1/4". If I am not mistaken, that gap is really
> meaningless as the top of that brace does not contact anything, right? (Or
> wrong?)
>
> Happy new year
>
> Jim
---------------------------------------------
This message was sent using EXP Webmail.
http://www.exp.net
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Ballistic parachutes on RVs |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
Amen Brother!
Maybe after they get the BRS system perfected for the RV, they can get
with the OnStar people and develop a similar system for planes. I can
hear the commercials now:
"If you suffer a catastrophic structural failure, or encounter adverse
weather, or just plain get lost, simply press the blue button on your
panel. A live OnStar advisor will be there 24/7 to assist you in
finding the nearest fuel, or VFR alternate. Or, in case of pilot
incapacitation, we can remotely activate your BRS system for you. With
OnStar, leave the planning and thinking to us."
Merry Christmas everyone!
Do not archive this rant
Jeff Point
RV-6 final assembly
Milwaukee WI
Paul Besing wrote:
>BRS are for wannabe pilots who have no confidence in their ability to handle
>an emergency, or neglect to stay proficient in IFR operation. Practice
>engine out procedures, dead stick landings (almost anyway), stay IFR
>current, and maintain your aircraft properly. Don't do aerobatics your butt
>can't cash, and most of all FLY THE AIRPLANE, don't let a BRS fly it for
>you! Merry Christmas, Nomex suit donned. Flame on!!
>
>
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Ballistic parachutes tests |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Frank van der Hulst (Staff WG)" <F.vanderHulst@ucol.ac.nz>
SSdsbCBiaXRlIG9uIHRoZSAiV2h5IG5vdCEiLi4uDQogDQoxLiBXaGV0aGVyIG9yIG5vdCBhIEJS
UyBzYXZlZCB0aGUgbGl2ZXMgb2YgdGhlIENpcnJ1cyBwaWxvdHMgaXMgc3BlY3VsYXRpdmUuDQog
DQoyLiBNb3N0IGZvcmNlZCBsYW5kaW5ncyBhcmUgZHVlIHRvIGxhY2sgb2YgZnVlbCAtLSBiZXR0
ZXIgdG8gdXNlIHRoZSBCUlMgc3BhY2Uvd2VpZ2h0IGZvciBhbiBleHRyYSB0YW5rDQogDQozLiBN
b3N0IGNyYXNoZXMgYXJlIGR1ZSB0byBwaWxvdCBlcnJvciAtLSBiZXR0ZXIgdG8gdXNlIHRoZSBC
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ZS4NCiANCjUuIFBvcHBpbmcgdGhlIEJSUyB3aWxsIHNhdmUgeW91ciBsaWZlIGF0IHRoZSBjb3N0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Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Ballistic parachutes on RVs |
--> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>BRS are for wannabe pilots who have no confidence in their ability to handle
>an emergency, or neglect to stay proficient in IFR operation. Practice
>engine out procedures, dead stick landings (almost anyway), stay IFR
>current, and maintain your aircraft properly. Don't do aerobatics your butt
>can't cash, and most of all FLY THE AIRPLANE, don't let a BRS fly it for
>you! Merry Christmas, Nomex suit donned. Flame on!!
You forgot to say: magnaflux all structural elements before every flight,
never make an error during your pre-flight, never have a bird strike,
never fly over hostile terrain or water, never fly at night,
never have a mid-air...
I'm not ashamed to admit that since I have never experienced an
in-flight emergency I have no idea how I would handle it. If I had
a few dozen hours in a simulator practicing emergencies I would
not be just a wannabe with no confidence. :-)
I've read enough NTSB reports to know that I like the idea
of having an additional arrow in my quiver.
Happy New Year!
--
Mickey
do not archive
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Ballistic parachutes |
--> RV-List message posted by: Kysh <vans-dragon@lapdragon.org>
As rv6tc was saying:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "rv6tc" <rv6tc@myawai.com>
>
> Weight, cost, complexity.
And a false sense of security...
-Kysh
--
| 'Life begins at 120kias' - http://www.lapdragon.org/flying |
| CBR-F4 streetbike - http://www.lapdragon.org/cbr |
| 1968 Mustang fastback - http://www.lapdragon.org/mustang |
| Got 'nix? - http://www.infrastructure.org/ |
| KG6FOB - http://www.lapdragon.org/ham |
| Give blood: Play Hockey! http://www.unixdragon.com/ |
Message 16
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|
| Subject: | Ballistic parachutes on RVs |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Cammie Patch" <cammie@sunvalley.net>
From what I remember from flying a Cirrus with a BRS, the descent rate is
around 1500 fpm on impact with the ground. Cirrus occupants have the benefit
of seats that are designed to "crumple" from the vertical load this descent
causes. Also, the only approved spin recovery in a Cirrus is the deployment
of the BRS, I don't think the RV series has a record of getting into
unrecoverable spins that would need a BRS. What appears to be a necessary
safety feature in a Cirrus might not in demand in the RV world.
Cammie
RV7a
Ailerons
---
--> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
Fully agreed. BRS is a total waste of time, money, and useful load. I can
just see it now..."oh don't mind that big lump of stuff back there Mr. First
Time RV rider, it's just an EXPLOSIVE parachute that I hope will never go
off when I key the mike or get near a thundershower."
Brian Denk
RV8 N94BD
no stinkin' explosive charged parachutes on my airplane.
do not archive
>Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 13:27:56 -0800
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
>
>Very few accidents in RVs are such that a ballistic a chute would have
>helped. I realize that there were a
>couple structure failures that would have MAYBE saved a pilot but over
>all you are wasting your time.
>IMO!!!
>
>Jerry
>
>Jeff Peltier wrote:
>
> >--> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Peltier
><jeffpeltier@brsparachutes.com>
> >
> >Hello RV owners,
> >Due to the very high interest exhibited by Vans owners over the years,
>we've
> >currently entered into the design phase regarding the installation of BRS
> >ballistic emergency parachute systems to Vans RV-6,-7 and -9. We have
> >purchased a new fuselage for the purpose of static structural pull tests,
> >and may be interested in acquiring other fuselages or parts for the
>various
> >tests required of this effort. We are also open to any questions or
> >comments that you may have regarding parachute installation on Vans
> >aircraft. Any input will be appreciated. We would really like to hear
>from
> >you.
> >
> >
> >Jeff Peltier
> >Design Engineer
> >BRS INC.
> >(651)457-7491
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Ballistic parachutes on RVs |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
>From what I remember from flying a Cirrus with a BRS, the descent rate is
>around 1500 fpm on impact with the ground. Cirrus occupants have the
>benefit
>of seats that are designed to "crumple" from the vertical load this descent
>causes. Also, the only approved spin recovery in a Cirrus is the deployment
>of the BRS, I don't think the RV series has a record of getting into
>unrecoverable spins that would need a BRS. What appears to be a necessary
>safety feature in a Cirrus might not in demand in the RV world.
>Cammie
>RV7a
>Ailerons
Say WHAAAT?!? The only way to recover a Cirrus from a spin is to blow the
chute? Egads. How do such airplanes get sold, and more to the point, who
would buy one?
I'm striking the Cirrus from my "would like to fly someday" list.
Brian Denk
RV8 N94BD
RV10 51 headed my way.
Make your home warm and cozy this winter with tips from MSN House & Home.
http://special.msn.com/home/warmhome.armx
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Update: Matronics Internet Connection... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Tom & Cathy Ervin" <tcervin@valkyrie.net>
Don't sweat it Matt and enjoy your Holidays! This list gives a far larger
contribution to the users than our donations do to support your efforts.
Tom in Ohio
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Dralle" <dralle@matronics.com>
Subject: RV-List: Update: Matronics Internet Connection...
> --> RV-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
>
>
> Dear Listers,
>
> First let me apologize for the discontinuity of List service over the last
> two days. There is a faulty transmit pair between here and the "B-Box"
and
> I have been having a heck of a time trying to get the phone company
> motivated to fix it. I am now trying to get them to take one of the
analog
> phone circuits to temporary get the T1 line circuit up. They are
> indicating that to repair the existing T1 circuit they must dig up a
> cross-connect in the street which will require a Permit from the City!
Who
> knows how long that will take to complete.
>
> For now, connectivity is intermittent, but working. Email should flow
> fine, although web server access may be a little sporadic. I'm working as
> hard as I can at getting the situation resolved, but with the holiday and
> all, its just been a nightmare.
>
> I will post more information as it becomes available... Again, my
> apologies; I thought upgrading to a commercial-grade T1 would elevate my
> connectivity issues once and for all...
>
> Wish me luck!
>
> Matt Dralle
> Matronics Email List Admin.
>
>
> Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
> 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email
> http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
>
> do not archive
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Ballistic parachutes on RVs |
HTML_TITLE_EMPTY
--> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
Mickey Coggins wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>
>
>
>
>>BRS are for wannabe pilots who have no confidence in their ability to handle
>>an emergency, or neglect to stay proficient in IFR operation. Practice
>>engine out procedures, dead stick landings (almost anyway), stay IFR
>>current, and maintain your aircraft properly. Don't do aerobatics your butt
>>can't cash, and most of all FLY THE AIRPLANE, don't let a BRS fly it for
>>you! Merry Christmas, Nomex suit donned. Flame on!!
>>
>>
>
>You forgot to say: magnaflux all structural elements before every flight,
>never make an error during your pre-flight, never have a bird strike,
>never fly over hostile terrain or water, never fly at night,
>never have a mid-air...
>
Sorry Mickey .... he didn't really need to. There will never be zero
risk in our aviation activities, just as there will never be zero risk
any other time. It isn't possible.
>I'm not ashamed to admit that since I have never experienced an
>in-flight emergency I have no idea how I would handle it.
>
I've had 3, one my fault. That one, thank goodness was handled with
training. The other two were handled by those angels that fly with all
of us! I'll have to admit that my decisions were spot on, and in all 3
(two off field landings) there was no additional damage to people,
property, nor aircraft.
> If I had a few dozen hours in a simulator practicing emergencies I would
>not be just a wannabe with no confidence. :-)
>
Possibly. I've changed an Aviation Wisdom to 'An old pilot is one that
survives all his/her stupid mistakes'.
>I've read enough NTSB reports to know that I like the idea
>of having an additional arrow in my quiver.
>
And we should learn from them. Most accidents are from hitting terra
firma in the clouds or losing control in them and running out of gas.
Even those with training sometimes have trouble handling IFR and all
kinds of nasty things happen. My guess is panic plays a big part.
However, along with a BRS, include air bags, spin 'chutes, and
Temperfoam cushioning. Oh yeah, and a bigger engine to haul all the
dead weight around. Nobody should argue that having an additional
safety item isn't a nice thing. However, many will argue (as I do) that
they're unnecessary.
Linn
>
>Happy New Year!
>
>--
>Mickey
>
>
>do not archive
>
>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Ballistic parachutes on RVs |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club" <sisson@consolidated.net>
Personally, I would use a personal chute pack if I were wanting to come
down in a chute.
There is a little bit of control available. I dont think there is any
control in the BRS.
Then on the other hand, you can just go fly it.. And have fun..............
Cost for two good used packs.... $800 to 1600, new ones about 1100 or
1200 each.
cost to repack both of them.... about $300 per year
>Just an oppinion, Phil
>
>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Ballistic parachutes on RVs |
--> RV-List message posted by: Boyd Braem <bcbraem@comcast.net>
My attitude on this may be slightly skewed because I used to fly planes
with this yellow handle that would make stuff under my butt blow up.
Safety, or maybe, more appropriately "feeling safe", is a very personal
thing. If "I" feel that a BRS would make it "safer" for "me" and thus
increase my flying pleasure/confidence, I would put would one in and
screw you all if you disagree, and vice versa. The PIC decides what
he/she puts in the plane. Just about everything in aviation is a
trade-off--speed, weight, cg, fuel consumption, speed, etc. How often
do you fly? Over what terrain? How main good dead stick sites
available at any given time? Your IFR/partial panel skills? What
altitude do you usually fly at? etc., etc. I don't necessarily like
situations where mechanical/electrical screw-ups are trying to kill me
and I like to think that I act accordingly. Technology is constantly
changing, giving us options that we also need to constantly be
evaluating for "our" situation. I mean, you could still be flying,
lying on your belly and shifting your hips from side-to-side to warp
your wings. I guess that would be separate category for the Mile High
Club--tho, two hips could be better than one, provided the movement
was, uh, ah, synchronized?
But don't chastise, harass or otherwise denigrate a pilot for doing
what he/she does for their own personal safety. You are not Them.
(OK, there are some weird cases where the pilot may have really gone
over the top, nutso, whacko--maybe like putting in a turn-signal lever
to use your position lights as blinkers--but it's still their
decision--they may have to be arrested, later and Baker Acted, but
that's personal responsibility for ya).
Boyd.
I Sincerely hope you all have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New
Year!--and, then GET BACK TO WORK, YOU SLACKERS.
do not archive
On Wednesday, December 24, 2003, at 05:38 PM, van Bladeren, Ron wrote:
> You fellas are missing the point. The benefit of the BRS is not
> necessarily
> it's ability to save your butt after you've overstressed the airframe
> but
> it's ability to give you another option to arrive safely on the ground
> when
> you're unable to do so for what ever reason. For example, most weather
> related fatal accidents could have been prevented if the pilot had
> been able
> to say "I give up" and reach forward to pull a red handle allowing him
> one
> last GOOD chance to survive.
> Sender: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> Precedence: bulk
> Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "van Bladeren, Ron" <rwv@nwnatural.com>
>
> We've all read countless stories here about pilots who have "iced up
> their
> carb filters", "got stuck VFR on top with no instruments or rating",
> "lost
> oil pressure over rough terrain", "engine failure at night" and on and
> on.....all situations which require superior airmanship in order to
> get back
> on the ground safely. And under these types of high pucker factor
> situations, superior airmanship is quite allusive. Crap happens, and
> if you
> fly long enough, it may happen to you.
>
> Fact of the matter, with the exception of the RV-3 these are all two
> (and
> four) seat aircraft and the responsibility we have as pilot-in-command
> to
> see to it that that person sitting beside or behind us gets safely
> back on
> the ground is paramount. If having that big lump of insurance
> requires me
> to loss 20 pounds of excess gut to do so..... well, sounds like a
> prudent
> thing to do.
>
> Carry on Jeff!
>
> Ron
> RV-8A'er
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Denk [mailto:akroguy@hotmail.com]
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Ballistic parachutes on RVs
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
>
> Fully agreed. BRS is a total waste of time, money, and useful load.
> I can
> just see it now..."oh don't mind that big lump of stuff back there Mr.
> First
>
> Time RV rider, it's just an EXPLOSIVE parachute that I hope will never
> go
> off when I key the mike or get near a thundershower."
>
>
> Brian Denk
> RV8 N94BD
> no stinkin' explosive charged parachutes on my airplane.
>
> do not archive
>
>
>> Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 13:27:56 -0800
>>
>> --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
>>
>> Very few accidents in RVs are such that a ballistic a chute would have
>> helped. I realize that there were a
>> couple structure failures that would have MAYBE saved a pilot but over
>> all you are wasting your time.
>> IMO!!!
>>
>> Jerry
>>
>> Jeff Peltier wrote:
>>
>>> --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Peltier
>> <jeffpeltier@brsparachutes.com>
>>>
>>> Hello RV owners,
>>> Due to the very high interest exhibited by Vans owners over the
>>> years,
>> we've
>>> currently entered into the design phase regarding the installation
>>> of BRS
>>> ballistic emergency parachute systems to Vans RV-6,-7 and -9. We have
>>> purchased a new fuselage for the purpose of static structural pull
>>> tests,
>>> and may be interested in acquiring other fuselages or parts for the
>> various
>>> tests required of this effort. We are also open to any questions or
>>> comments that you may have regarding parachute installation on Vans
>>> aircraft. Any input will be appreciated. We would really like to
>>> hear
>> from
>>> you.
>>>
>>>
>>> Jeff Peltier
>>> Design Engineer
>>> BRS INC.
>>> (651)457-7491
Message 22
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| Subject: | Ballistic parachutes on RVs |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" <terry@tcwatson.com>
OK, now I have to add my nickel's worth.
About half the flying that I get to do these days is in my friend's Cirrus
SR22. It's a fine airplane with a lot of safety features, such as all
electric with dual electric systems, and as Cammie mentioned, seats designed
to absorb impact. You can imagine that we have studied the manual and
talked about when we would use or consider using the ballistic parachute. I
can imagine a few situations where the parachute might be used. The most
probable in my mind would be after surviving a midair collision that made
the airplane unflyable. Another would be engine failure over terrain that
offered virtually no chance of surviving a forced landing, or maybe with a
non-flying passenger and the pilot dying or becoming disabled, as happened
with a float plane here a few years ago. The Cirrus manual lists the
following "possible scenarios" where their parachute MIGHT be used: Mid-air
collision, Structural failure, Loss of control; Landing in inhospitable
terrain, and Pilot incapacitation. But I think the real reason that Cirrus
has pushed the idea is for the non-flying spouse of the owner-pilot, and for
peace of mind rather than significantly increased safety.
There is a woman I have hiked with quite a bit over the five plus years that
I have been building my RV-8A who has absolutely no interest in getting into
a light airplane, let alone one built by a person she knows. Her boyfriend
convinced her to go to the Arlington air show a couple of years ago, and the
next time she saw me, she said she would enjoy flying in that "airplane of
the future." I asked what that was, and she couldn't remember the name but
with her description, I realized that they had gone through Cirrus's
traveling exhibit. The parachute made all the difference to her. If her
boyfriend had a light plane, she would fly with him only if it had the
ballistic parachute installed.
As far as saving lives, BRS (brsparachutes.com) as of yesterday claims their
159th life saved. Granted, I think almost all of these are in ultralights or
hang gliders, but that pretty much describes where the whole flying business
got started. I believe they now have installations for Cessna 152's and
172's. As for spin recovery, Cammie didn't say the ballistic parachute is
the ONLY way to recover from a spin; she said it was the only APPROVED way.
If my memory isn't failing me, I think that was also true of my all-time
favorite airplane, the T-38, but the parachute was attached to the pilot,
not the airframe.
Every one of us building RV's have our own list of requirements, concerns,
abilities, and outside influences. My RV won't have an airframe parachute
and probably wouldn't even if they were available, but to call those that do
"wannabe pilots" and worse says a whole lot more about the person saying it
than it does about the one considering installing it in his own RV. We
gotta be IFR rated and current to fly an RV? Too much eggnog maybe?
Terry
RV-8A wiring
Seattle
BRS are for wannabe pilots who have no confidence in their ability to handle
an emergency, or neglect to stay proficient in IFR operation. Practice
engine out procedures, dead stick landings (almost anyway), stay IFR
current, and maintain your aircraft properly. Don't do aerobatics your butt
can't cash, and most of all FLY THE AIRPLANE, don't let a BRS fly it for
you! Merry Christmas, Nomex suit donned. Flame on!!
do not archive this rediculous nonsense!
Paul Besing
--> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
Say WHAAAT?!? The only way to recover a Cirrus from a spin is to blow the
chute? Egads. How do such airplanes get sold, and more to the point, who
would buy one?
I'm striking the Cirrus from my "would like to fly someday" list.
Brian Denk
RV8 N94BD
RV10 51 headed my way.
Message 23
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|
--> RV-List message posted by: "austin" <austin@uniserve.com>
Hi Listers ,
And a merry Christmas and even better New Year to you
all.
Another Christmas.
And where are we with the RV, our timeline, and mission statement ..flying
wise ?
A mystical day, in a sense, Christmas before the frenzy of driving, dinner,
family, kids, job, time,...more time we need to get to where we want to
be...RV wise, we don't talk about it much, we just have this goal....
Finish it and fly it...consummation......
And for those fortunate to be done, time on our side and finished, the
hangar door is our holy grail...
In my part of the world, rain was forecast, but as usual, they are only 50 %
right...Expert weather man that I am, I am batting just as good an average
as the TV weather man, in that my forecast says that the weather today will
be much like it was yesterday...and my average is pretty good.
Yes, there is a cloudbase about 3,000...but light and pink underneath and
lightwind.
A good day to fly when so many others have other things to do and agendas of
far more import.
Do you secretly sense a kind of thrill when you unlock the hangar door and
see your RV spinner the first to greet you and tell you that all the work
and time and money and lies and budget fudging are standing here, waiting
for you to open the doors all the way and let me out and start the engine
and listen to nothing else but the prop and exhaust and the monotone of ATIS
and finally lift your gaze to clear taxi ?
Even though I try each time to stay straight on the painted line as
throttle up pulls me along, I always stagger a bit and before I can feel I
have command enough to make this horse track straight...the wheels are no
longer exacting any drag for they are free of the tarmac and we are rising
swiftly.
It is as easy as that !
I don't even mind the noise, and it drowns everything else, but I have
things to do, and enjoying the falling away landscape seems to be the
uppermost ..
Turn off the boost pump, trim a bit, throttle the noise back, get a smug
smile at what the GPS is saying and look around.....ain't this a special way
to spend part of a Christmas day ?...
Later, at the table, with family dear, and kids and spouses and
in-laws....this is a special time of get together and values, but an RV
pilot has already had their " religious experience " this day...
Ever been to a stadium out of season ? when all the seats are empty
and the crowd and noise are but a memory ?
Weird.
Well, landing at a normally busy field on Christmas day to find it empty,
the coffee shop closed and dark and no other sounds of airplanes starting up
or taxiing in is equally weird....
Are we the only airplane guys in the sky today ?
Heading home with the wind at our backs and GPS telling amazing stories,
home field appears at 10 o'clock and nobody else is talking to the
tower...at first, I wonder if the radio is working....no voices....
But good old radio does work and a voice bids " straight in " from 6 miles
out....or more....
My landings are never the same as to how far out I get serious, but finally
I quit looking at the airspeed and just how high or low the nose seems to be
from the paint lines and somehow the RV finds her own glidepath and the
tires kiss the blacktop.......now rolling out is something else again
because I think I am a lousy pilot and I get a shimmy and try to kil it by
back pressure, and it works..for a while.....by this time...it is time to
clear active and why I have to monitor ground beats me as there is no other
life around..but home we go and put her away and before closing the doors,
my hand on the cowling feels the warmth of life and I sense the wonder of
all these parts that bore me up once more for my " fix "....
I believe I am addicted....
At locking up, my thoughts turn to those I have known or read about who no
longer have a Christmas for whatever reason and those who made it safe for
me to enjoy what others paid the ultimate price for me to savour.
God bless you all, and those forever young..
Austin.
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Ballistic parachutes on RVs |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bob U." <rv3@comcast.net>
Mickey Coggins wrote:
>
>I've read enough NTSB reports to know that I like the idea
>of having an additional arrow in my quiver.
>
>Happy New Year!
>
>--
>Mickey
>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Question is......
Will you feel the same if/when the NTSB reports document
that the BRS chute is not nearly the panacea many envision.
Unfounded confidence seems to be the rule rather then the
exception in today's technical world and hype is the life blood
of the folks in marketing.
Caveat Emptor to one and all.
Bob - over 50 years of successful flight
Do not archive
Message 25
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| Subject: | Ballistic parachutes on RVs |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Cammie Patch" <cammie@sunvalley.net>
Brian, don't strike Cirrus from your list. I have been very impressed with
Cirrus aircraft and their many innovations and use of available technology.
Even with the BRS they have a very good useful load and a roomy cockpit.
Even though the chute is the only "approved" way to recover from a spin, I
have yet to hear of one getting into a spin. They are very stable in stalls,
but with the small tail and rudder the chute provides an escape route that
will most likely never be used.
I would encourage everyone to contact a Cirrus salesman who would happily
take you up for a spin, (strike that, bad choice of words), a flight. I had
a few of my student pilots fly the SR22 and they had no problems handling
the aircraft, even landing it. I just hope that the rest of the industry
will follow the lead of Cirrus and strive to produce such quality aircraft.
Cammie
CFII
RV7a
Ailerons
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Brian Denk
Subject: RE: RV-List: Ballistic parachutes on RVs
--> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
>From what I remember from flying a Cirrus with a BRS, the descent rate is
>around 1500 fpm on impact with the ground. Cirrus occupants have the
>benefit
>of seats that are designed to "crumple" from the vertical load this descent
>causes. Also, the only approved spin recovery in a Cirrus is the deployment
>of the BRS, I don't think the RV series has a record of getting into
>unrecoverable spins that would need a BRS. What appears to be a necessary
>safety feature in a Cirrus might not in demand in the RV world.
>Cammie
>RV7a
>Ailerons
Say WHAAAT?!? The only way to recover a Cirrus from a spin is to blow the
chute? Egads. How do such airplanes get sold, and more to the point, who
would buy one?
I'm striking the Cirrus from my "would like to fly someday" list.
Brian Denk
RV8 N94BD
RV10 51 headed my way.
Make your home warm and cozy this winter with tips from MSN House & Home.
http://special.msn.com/home/warmhome.armx
Message 26
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|
| Subject: | RV-6 wings for sale |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Weiler" <dougweil@pressenter.com>
Fellow Listers:
A quick re-posting of this for a local friend here in Minneapolis:
RV-6 wings from partially completed kit. The wings are 90% finished and
includes center section components. Price reduced to $3000
Contact me off list and I'll forward your inquiry.
Thanks
Doug Weiler
Hudson, WI
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Ballistic parachutes on RVs |
--> RV-List message posted by: Kysh <vans-dragon@lapdragon.org>
As Cammie Patch was saying:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Cammie Patch" <cammie@sunvalley.net>
> I would encourage everyone to contact a Cirrus salesman who would happily
> take you up for a spin, (strike that, bad choice of words), a flight. I had
> a few of my student pilots fly the SR22 and they had no problems handling
> the aircraft, even landing it. I just hope that the rest of the industry
> will follow the lead of Cirrus and strive to produce such quality aircraft.
I'd just be happy if someone would produce an airplane for less than $35k that
actually flew, so that those of us who aren't business owners, CEOs and the like
would actually be able to own an airplane. Without, of course, having to build
it first. (I would rather have an airplane to fly as I built an RV)
Seriously, I don't care how good/bad/indifferent an airplane is, at $150k+,
it's out of the price range of all but the richest people- And most pilots are
far from rich.
Who knows, maybe Honda will do it. (I doubt it)
-Kysh, somewhat disgruntled with the state of new aircraft- Unable to feel
sympathy with bankrupt companies producing multi-hundred-thousand-dollar
aircraft
Do not archive
--
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| 1968 Mustang fastback - http://www.lapdragon.org/mustang |
| Got 'nix? - http://www.infrastructure.org/ |
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Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Ballistic parachutes on RVs |
--> RV-List message posted by: Genev E Reed <genevreed@juno.com>
Paul: Don't do aerobatics your butt can't cash. ? What does that mean.
Doyle RV7A
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Rv Christmas |
HTML_TAG_EXISTS_TBODY, MIME_SUSPECT_NAME
--> RV-List message posted by: "Kirsten Lacy" <klacy@totalaccess.net>
Thank you, Austin. Your post was a God-send on this Christmas day, for some
are not here to be with us this Christmas. To hear you, your love of flying
made my heart soar....
God Bless.
Kirsten Stugart Lacy
do not archive
-------Original Message-------
From: rv-list@matronics.com
Subject: RV-List: Rv Christmas
--> RV-List message posted by: "austin" <austin@uniserve.com>
Hi Listers ,
And a merry Christmas and even better New Year to you
all.
Another Christmas.
And where are we with the RV, our timeline, and mission statement ..flying
wise ?
A mystical day, in a sense, Christmas before the frenzy of driving, dinner,
family, kids, job, time,...more time we need to get to where we want to
be...RV wise, we don't talk about it much, we just have this goal....
Finish it and fly it...consummation......
And for those fortunate to be done, time on our side and finished, the
hangar door is our holy grail...
In my part of the world, rain was forecast, but as usual, they are only 50 %
right...Expert weather man that I am, I am batting just as good an average
as the TV weather man, in that my forecast says that the weather today will
be much like it was yesterday...and my average is pretty good.
Yes, there is a cloudbase about 3,000...but light and pink underneath and
lightwind.
A good day to fly when so many others have other things to do and agendas of
far more import.
Do you secretly sense a kind of thrill when you unlock the hangar door and
see your RV spinner the first to greet you and tell you that all the work
and time and money and lies and budget fudging are standing here, waiting
for you to open the doors all the way and let me out and start the engine
and listen to nothing else but the prop and exhaust and the monotone of ATIS
and finally lift your gaze to clear taxi ?
Even though I try each time to stay straight on the painted line as
throttle up pulls me along, I always stagger a bit and before I can feel I
have command enough to make this horse track straight...the wheels are no
longer exacting any drag for they are free of the tarmac and we are rising
swiftly.
It is as easy as that !
I don't even mind the noise, and it drowns everything else, but I have
things to do, and enjoying the falling away landscape seems to be the
uppermost ..
Turn off the boost pump, trim a bit, throttle the noise back, get a smug
smile at what the GPS is saying and look around.....ain't this a special way
to spend part of a Christmas day ?...
Later, at the table, with family dear, and kids and spouses and
in-laws....this is a special time of get together and values, but an RV
pilot has already had their " religious experience " this day...
Ever been to a stadium out of season ? when all the seats are empty
and the crowd and noise are but a memory ?
Weird.
Well, landing at a normally busy field on Christmas day to find it empty,
the coffee shop closed and dark and no other sounds of airplanes starting up
or taxiing in is equally weird....
Are we the only airplane guys in the sky today ?
Heading home with the wind at our backs and GPS telling amazing stories,
home field appears at 10 o'clock and nobody else is talking to the
tower...at first, I wonder if the radio is working....no voices....
But good old radio does work and a voice bids " straight in " from 6 miles
out....or more....
My landings are never the same as to how far out I get serious, but finally
I quit looking at the airspeed and just how high or low the nose seems to be
from the paint lines and somehow the RV finds her own glidepath and the
tires kiss the blacktop.......now rolling out is something else again
because I think I am a lousy pilot and I get a shimmy and try to kil it by
back pressure, and it works..for a while.....by this time...it is time to
clear active and why I have to monitor ground beats me as there is no other
life around..but home we go and put her away and before closing the doors,
my hand on the cowling feels the warmth of life and I sense the wonder of
all these parts that bore me up once more for my " fix "....
I believe I am addicted....
At locking up, my thoughts turn to those I have known or read about who no
longer have a Christmas for whatever reason and those who made it safe for
me to enjoy what others paid the ultimate price for me to savour.
God bless you all, and those forever young..
Austin.
Message 30
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|
| Subject: | Re: Rv Christmas |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ken Cantrell" <kcflyrv@pacbell.net>
Austin,
You're the master.
Thank you for putting down the words that describe the feelings so many of
us have when we find the time to do the RV dance. Countless times I have
experienced this very thrill but it's a feeling I rarely talk about because
so few can relate. When I read one of Austin's stories I feel the warm and
fuzzy kinship of our group and I'm reminded of the reason I read this list
every day. We share something really special and I'm glad to one of the
clan. Even though I didn't get to the airport today, I got a sweet thrill
from reading your post. I think we are all adrenalin junkies to some degree
and what a sweet fix it is.
Thank you Austin.
Merry Christmas to you and to all RV'rs everywhere.
Ken Cantrell
RV6 Lodi Ca.
April 26, '02... 245 hours of joy
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "austin" <austin@uniserve.com>
Subject: RV-List: Rv Christmas
> --> RV-List message posted by: "austin" <austin@uniserve.com>
>
> Hi Listers ,
> And a merry Christmas and even better New Year to you
> all.
> Another Christmas.
> And where are we with the RV, our timeline, and mission statement ..flying
> wise ?
> A mystical day, in a sense, Christmas before the frenzy of driving,
dinner,
> family, kids, job, time,...more time we need to get to where we want to
> be...RV wise, we don't talk about it much, we just have this goal....
> Finish it and fly it...consummation......
> And for those fortunate to be done, time on our side and finished, the
> hangar door is our holy grail...
> In my part of the world, rain was forecast, but as usual, they are only 50
%
> right...Expert weather man that I am, I am batting just as good an average
> as the TV weather man, in that my forecast says that the weather today
will
> be much like it was yesterday...and my average is pretty good.
> Yes, there is a cloudbase about 3,000...but light and pink underneath and
> lightwind.
> A good day to fly when so many others have other things to do and agendas
of
> far more import.
> Do you secretly sense a kind of thrill when you unlock the hangar door
and
> see your RV spinner the first to greet you and tell you that all the work
> and time and money and lies and budget fudging are standing here, waiting
> for you to open the doors all the way and let me out and start the engine
> and listen to nothing else but the prop and exhaust and the monotone of
ATIS
> and finally lift your gaze to clear taxi ?
> Even though I try each time to stay straight on the painted line as
> throttle up pulls me along, I always stagger a bit and before I can feel I
> have command enough to make this horse track straight...the wheels are no
> longer exacting any drag for they are free of the tarmac and we are
rising
> swiftly.
> It is as easy as that !
> I don't even mind the noise, and it drowns everything else, but I
have
> things to do, and enjoying the falling away landscape seems to be the
> uppermost ..
> Turn off the boost pump, trim a bit, throttle the noise back, get a smug
> smile at what the GPS is saying and look around.....ain't this a special
way
> to spend part of a Christmas day ?...
> Later, at the table, with family dear, and kids and spouses and
> in-laws....this is a special time of get together and values, but an RV
> pilot has already had their " religious experience " this day...
> Ever been to a stadium out of season ? when all the seats are
empty
> and the crowd and noise are but a memory ?
> Weird.
> Well, landing at a normally busy field on Christmas day to find it empty,
> the coffee shop closed and dark and no other sounds of airplanes starting
up
> or taxiing in is equally weird....
> Are we the only airplane guys in the sky today ?
> Heading home with the wind at our backs and GPS telling amazing stories,
> home field appears at 10 o'clock and nobody else is talking to the
> tower...at first, I wonder if the radio is working....no voices....
> But good old radio does work and a voice bids " straight in " from 6 miles
> out....or more....
> My landings are never the same as to how far out I get serious, but
finally
> I quit looking at the airspeed and just how high or low the nose seems to
be
> from the paint lines and somehow the RV finds her own glidepath and the
> tires kiss the blacktop.......now rolling out is something else again
> because I think I am a lousy pilot and I get a shimmy and try to kil it by
> back pressure, and it works..for a while.....by this time...it is time to
> clear active and why I have to monitor ground beats me as there is no
other
> life around..but home we go and put her away and before closing the doors,
> my hand on the cowling feels the warmth of life and I sense the wonder of
> all these parts that bore me up once more for my " fix "....
> I believe I am addicted....
> At locking up, my thoughts turn to those I have known or read about who no
> longer have a Christmas for whatever reason and those who made it safe for
> me to enjoy what others paid the ultimate price for me to savour.
> God bless you all, and those forever young..
> Austin.
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Ballistic parachutes on RVs |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Paul Besing" <azpilot@extremezone.com>
Ok, ok, so "wannabe pilots" may not have been the best choice of words. It
was more holiday cheer and to poke a little fun for sake of argument. I'm
sure there are pilots that are far more experienced than I am (which isn't
hard to do)that fly with BRS. I just feel they are truly overkill. I feel
that that the few instances where a BRS could be used, do not out weigh the
cost. (not just money, but the entire picture).
As previously stated, you most likely going to crash due to loss of control
in IFR, or hitting terra firma due to other reasons than mid air collissions
or pilot incapacitation. For me, I'll take my chances. Just about any in
flight emergency can be prevented (I.E. fuel, inadvertant IMC, maintenance,
etc). If it does happen (Brian, I'm talking about you!) then nothing can
replace the most important thing. Fly the airplane. Get it down the way
your taught and practice. In the event you are in mountainous terrain, do
your best. I think mountainous terrain emergency would be the only time
where I *might* say, "I wish I had a BRS". But then again, even in
mountainous terrain, I'm not to sure I would like to land vertically on a
steep mountain. Your tumbling down will likely kill you anyway. I'd prefer
to plant it in some trees with a little velocity and get it stuck somewhere
than just *fall* down the mountain at 1500 FPM.
I'm sure the Cirrus is a fine airplane. After all, it has seats that were
designed to absorb the impact from a BRS decent, right? Seriously though,
if it sells more airplanes, and makes people feel comfortable about flying,
then more power to them. For me and many other wannabe pilots, I think we
can do just fine without them.
do not archive
Paul Besing
RV-6A Sold (RV-10 Soon)
http://www.lacodeworks.com/besing
Kitlog Builder's Log Software
http://www.kitlog.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cammie Patch" <cammie@sunvalley.net>
Subject: RE: RV-List: Ballistic parachutes on RVs
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Cammie Patch" <cammie@sunvalley.net>
>
> Brian, don't strike Cirrus from your list. I have been very impressed with
> Cirrus aircraft and their many innovations and use of available
technology.
> Even with the BRS they have a very good useful load and a roomy cockpit.
> Even though the chute is the only "approved" way to recover from a spin, I
> have yet to hear of one getting into a spin. They are very stable in
stalls,
> but with the small tail and rudder the chute provides an escape route that
> will most likely never be used.
>
> I would encourage everyone to contact a Cirrus salesman who would happily
> take you up for a spin, (strike that, bad choice of words), a flight. I
had
> a few of my student pilots fly the SR22 and they had no problems handling
> the aircraft, even landing it. I just hope that the rest of the industry
> will follow the lead of Cirrus and strive to produce such quality
aircraft.
> Cammie
> CFII
> RV7a
> Ailerons
>
>
> do not archive
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Brian Denk
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV-List: Ballistic parachutes on RVs
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
>
>
> >From what I remember from flying a Cirrus with a BRS, the descent rate is
> >around 1500 fpm on impact with the ground. Cirrus occupants have the
> >benefit
> >of seats that are designed to "crumple" from the vertical load this
descent
> >causes. Also, the only approved spin recovery in a Cirrus is the
deployment
> >of the BRS, I don't think the RV series has a record of getting into
> >unrecoverable spins that would need a BRS. What appears to be a necessary
> >safety feature in a Cirrus might not in demand in the RV world.
> >Cammie
> >RV7a
> >Ailerons
>
>
> Say WHAAAT?!? The only way to recover a Cirrus from a spin is to blow the
> chute? Egads. How do such airplanes get sold, and more to the point, who
> would buy one?
>
> I'm striking the Cirrus from my "would like to fly someday" list.
>
> Brian Denk
> RV8 N94BD
> RV10 51 headed my way.
>
> Make your home warm and cozy this winter with tips from MSN House & Home.
> http://special.msn.com/home/warmhome.armx
>
>
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