---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 01/06/04: 41 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:03 AM - Re:Upper and lower Gearleg intersection fairings (PGLong@aol.com) 2. 05:06 AM - Re: Upper and lower Gearleg intersection fairings (Marcel Bourgon) 3. 06:09 AM - Re: Carb Vs Fuel Injection (Scott Bilinski) 4. 06:10 AM - Re: manual engine pre-oiler (RV_8 Pilot) 5. 06:17 AM - 2004 Sun 100 Air Race? (RV_8 Pilot) 6. 06:59 AM - Counterbalanced crank shaft (Steve&Anita Nyman) 7. 07:59 AM - Fire wall sealant (RSamuelson@aol.com) 8. 08:29 AM - side stick conversion? (ryan gottlieb) 9. 08:47 AM - Re: Fire wall sealant (Scott Bilinski) 10. 08:53 AM - Re: manual engine pre-oiler (Richard Dudley) 11. 09:04 AM - Re: 2004 Sun 100 Air Race? (Tom Gummo) 12. 09:10 AM - Re: Counterbalanced crank shaft (Terry Watson) 13. 09:11 AM - Re: side stick conversion? (Tom Gummo) 14. 09:31 AM - Re: Fire wall sealant (Mike Nellis) 15. 09:32 AM - Re: Fire wall sealant (glenn.williams@businessacft.bombardier.com) 16. 10:21 AM - Re: 2004 Sun 100 Air Race? (Kyle Boatright) 17. 10:22 AM - APV (Wheeler North) 18. 10:42 AM - Re: RV7-List: I made a donation & I'm registering as a Marrow donor (Paul Pflimlin) 19. 10:45 AM - Re: side stick conversion? (Jim Sears) 20. 11:28 AM - Re: Re: RV7-List: I made a donation & I'm registering as a Marrow donor (Terry Watson) 21. 01:00 PM - Re: side stick conversion? (Aaron Villery) 22. 01:31 PM - Re: RV4-List: Re: RV7-List: I made a donation & I'm registering as a Marrow donor (C. Rabaut) 23. 02:16 PM - Re: APV (Tom Gummo) 24. 02:17 PM - Re: Re: RV7-List: I made a donation & I'm registering as (Jerry Springer) 25. 02:54 PM - Re: light weight propellers (Jim Bower) 26. 03:37 PM - Re: Counterbalanced crank shaft (Steve&Anita Nyman) 27. 03:40 PM - Re: APV (JOHN STARN) 28. 03:57 PM - Re: 2004 Sun 100 Air Race? (RV_8 Pilot) 29. 03:59 PM - Proprietary AOA flap switch (Jeff Point) 30. 04:11 PM - Re: Proprietary AOA flap switch (John Mcmahon) 31. 05:56 PM - Re: side stick conversion? (Ron Burnett) 32. 05:56 PM - Re: Proprietary AOA flap switch (N67BT@aol.com) 33. 06:52 PM - Re: Proprietary AOA flap switch (Larry Bowen) 34. 07:18 PM - Re: Proprietary AOA flap switch (John Mcmahon) 35. 07:18 PM - Re: Cracked AN470AD4 rivets when using a pneumatic squeezer. (Tim Lewis) 36. 07:35 PM - Help with 3 blade Catto Prop on RV3 (Rick Fogerson) 37. 07:37 PM - Re: Flap motor failure (N223RV@aol.com) 38. 08:07 PM - Re: Al Haynes needs our help (N90ATC@aol.com) 39. 09:21 PM - Re: manual engine pre-oiler (j1j2h3@juno.com) 40. 09:43 PM - Fw: !988 RV-4 Complete kit. How Much is it worth? (Dave) 41. 10:14 PM - Re: light weight propellers (LeastDrag93066@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:03:53 AM PST US From: PGLong@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Re:Upper and lower Gearleg intersection fairings --> RV-List message posted by: PGLong@aol.com Scott I just purchased RV4 upper and lower gearleg intersection fairings from Bob Snedaker at Fairings-etc. His web site and phone number follow. Very good looking product and Bob was very helpful when I had a few questions. I used them with Van's fiberglass gear leg fairings on my short legged RV4. Don't think you can go wrong with his products. Check his website for more fiberglass products for RV's bob@fairings-etc.com Cellular: 623-203-9795 Pat Long PGLong@aol.com N924PL (reserved) RV4 finishing Bay City, Michigan ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:06:57 AM PST US From: Marcel Bourgon Subject: Re: RV-List: Upper and lower Gearleg intersection fairings --> RV-List message posted by: Marcel Bourgon Scott Brown wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Scott Brown" > > >Listers, > >Where can I find RV4 upper and lower gearleg intersection fairings? > >Scott > > > > We just found a source. Try fairings-etc.com marcel in el paso ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:09:52 AM PST US From: Scott Bilinski Subject: RE: RV-List: Carb Vs Fuel Injection --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski >Here's the deal. The AFP servos have both the mixture and throttle arms on >the same side, and it makes for (or at least it used to) much easier cable >routing. Not on my unit. I think one of the arms can be moved from one side or the other but am not sure. Currently throttle on one side and mixture on the other. Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 do not archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:10:31 AM PST US From: "RV_8 Pilot" Subject: Re: RV-List: manual engine pre-oiler --> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" For a first start, I'd ask a couple of questions. How log since the engine has been run or was reassembled from overhaul? Was some good lubricant (STP, etc) used on the bearings when reassembled? In my case, I just spun it up with the plugs out. Watched for oil pressure after about 5 seconds or less of spinning. Worked good. Now up to 580 hrs on my overhaul. I understand your concern. If unable to answer the first questions, keep pushing to find your answers. looks like a couple of good answers popping up. I've never preoiled an AC engine, but would imagine it's a matter of finding the right connection on the accy section and possibly pulling the plugs on the lifter/cam oil passages. Only problem with this is the possibility of breaking loose trash and plugging these *very* close tolerance oil passages in the lifters. just a few thoughts. Bryan Jones -8 www.LoneStarSquadron.com Houston, Texas >Thanks for the information on the pump. My interest is pre-oiling on the >first start up of a new engine. Just cranking it with plugs out may be >adequate, but I wanted to consider using something else before cranking. >I'll be interested in your photo. > >Regards, > >Richard Dudley Tired of slow downloads? Compare online deals from your local high-speed providers now. https://broadband.msn.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:17:42 AM PST US From: "RV_8 Pilot" Subject: RV-List: 2004 Sun 100 Air Race? --> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" Anyone know if there'll be a 2004 Sun 100 air race? It was questionable last year, so I heard, due to the sponsors concerns over liability. A pilot who's glad the world is so much safer due to the diligent, selfless efforts of lawyers. Bryan Jones -8 www.LoneStarSquadron.com Houston, Texas ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:59:26 AM PST US From: "Steve&Anita Nyman" Subject: RV-List: Counterbalanced crank shaft --> RV-List message posted by: "Steve&Anita Nyman" From: "Ken Brooks" Subject: RV-List: WhirlWind 151 Prop - was light weight propellers --> RV-List message posted by: "Ken Brooks" ---therefore decided to shell out the extra $2500 for the counterbalanced crank (OUCH!). --- Ken Brooks Roscoe, IL Ken, On the Aerosport website, they indicate that all the new engines come with a balanced crank. Is your counterbalanced crank something different? I just ordered the IO-360-M1 ( same as the B series except with the horizontal forward facing Injector) and am wondering if I should call them back. Steve RV7QB MEM ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:59:49 AM PST US From: RSamuelson@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Fire wall sealant --> RV-List message posted by: RSamuelson@aol.com Does anyone have experience with "Fire Break 814"? I was thinking of using it in place of Hi Temp RTV in sealing joints on an RV7A. Fire Break 814 is a commercial fire and draft sealant, rated at 3000 deg F for 8 hours. It's non-toxic, non-corrosive, water clean-up. I got it at my local hardware store. Thanks for the help Roy Samuelson ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:29:39 AM PST US From: "ryan gottlieb" Subject: RV-List: side stick conversion? --> RV-List message posted by: "ryan gottlieb" has anyone ever converted the center stick to a side stick? I would like to do this with the RV10(if i ever get one :) I like the center stick, but for long cross country trips, I would rather have my lap free, and allow my right seat passenger the luxury of changing positions, or reaching in the back with out hitting the stick. what are your thoughts? Thanks, Ryan Expand your wine savvy and get some great new recipes at MSN Wine. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:47:39 AM PST US From: Scott Bilinski Subject: Re: RV-List: Fire wall sealant --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski There is also Fire Stop 2000, also a silicone, which expands when exposed to hight temps and will seal the joint. At 10:59 AM 1/6/04 -0500, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: RSamuelson@aol.com > >Does anyone have experience with "Fire Break 814"? I was thinking of using it >in place of Hi Temp RTV in sealing joints on an RV7A. > >Fire Break 814 is a commercial fire and draft sealant, rated at 3000 deg F >for 8 hours. >It's non-toxic, non-corrosive, water clean-up. I got it at my local hardware >store. > >Thanks for the help > >Roy Samuelson > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 do not archive ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:53:35 AM PST US From: Richard Dudley Subject: Re: RV-List: manual engine pre-oiler --> RV-List message posted by: Richard Dudley Bryan, Thanks for your comments. The engine is Lycoming new. Not run since factory test cell about 1-1/2 years ago. I'm interested in best conditions for first start up. Richard Dudley RV_8 Pilot wrote: > > --> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" > > For a first start, I'd ask a couple of questions. How log since the engine > has been run or was reassembled from overhaul? Was some good lubricant > (STP, etc) used on the bearings when reassembled? > > In my case, I just spun it up with the plugs out. Watched for oil pressure > after about 5 seconds or less of spinning. Worked good. Now up to 580 hrs > on my overhaul. > > I understand your concern. If unable to answer the first questions, keep > pushing to find your answers. looks like a couple of good answers popping > up. I've never preoiled an AC engine, but would imagine it's a matter of > finding the right connection on the accy section and possibly pulling the > plugs on the lifter/cam oil passages. Only problem with this is the > possibility of breaking loose trash and plugging these *very* close > tolerance oil passages in the lifters. > > just a few thoughts. > > Bryan Jones -8 > www.LoneStarSquadron.com > Houston, Texas > > >Thanks for the information on the pump. My interest is pre-oiling on the > >first start up of a new engine. Just cranking it with plugs out may be > >adequate, but I wanted to consider using something else before cranking. > >I'll be interested in your photo. > > > >Regards, > > > >Richard Dudley > > Tired of slow downloads? Compare online deals from your local high-speed > providers now. https://broadband.msn.com > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:04:50 AM PST US From: "Tom Gummo" Subject: Re: RV-List: 2004 Sun 100 Air Race? --> RV-List message posted by: "Tom Gummo" I don't know about this race but the Golden West and Copperstate races were cancelled. These races were sponsored by Aircraft Spruce and the rumor was that Spruce's became afraid of liability if anything happened. Pilots were required to have 1,000,000 dollar of insurance but you know who would the lawyers would have gone after had there been a problem. Tom Gummo Apple Valley, CA Harmon Rocket-II do not archive http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "RV_8 Pilot" Subject: RV-List: 2004 Sun 100 Air Race? > --> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" > > Anyone know if there'll be a 2004 Sun 100 air race? It was questionable > last year, so I heard, due to the sponsors concerns over liability. > > A pilot who's glad the world is so much safer due to the diligent, selfless > efforts of lawyers. > > Bryan Jones -8 > www.LoneStarSquadron.com > Houston, Texas > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:10:43 AM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Counterbalanced crank shaft --> RV-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" I'm not Ken, but my ONLY regret about the engine I bought from Aero Sport Power is that I did not take Bart's advice and get the counterbalanced crank. Without it, I may not be able to use the Whirlwind prop like Ken bought. I think they all come with a "balanced" crank, but the "counterbalanced" costs more. Terry RV-8A wiring Seattle --> RV-List message posted by: "Steve&Anita Nyman" From: "Ken Brooks" Subject: RV-List: WhirlWind 151 Prop - was light weight propellers --> RV-List message posted by: "Ken Brooks" ---therefore decided to shell out the extra $2500 for the counterbalanced crank (OUCH!). --- Ken Brooks Roscoe, IL Ken, On the Aerosport website, they indicate that all the new engines come with a balanced crank. Is your counterbalanced crank something different? I just ordered the IO-360-M1 ( same as the B series except with the horizontal forward facing Injector) and am wondering if I should call them back. Steve RV7QB MEM ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:11:19 AM PST US From: "Tom Gummo" Subject: Re: RV-List: side stick conversion? --> RV-List message posted by: "Tom Gummo" Just my thoughts, 1. If is not broke, don't fix it. 2. One small change will cause ten big ones later. 3. This would cause a major redesign of the flight control system. 4. Would the mechanical leverage of a very short "side stick" be able to move the flight controls enough distance to fly properly? How about under air loads at 180 KIAS. Again just my thoughts - WORTH EVERY PENNY YOU SPENT TO GET THEM. :-) Tom Gummo Apple Valley, CA Harmon Rocket-II do not archive http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "ryan gottlieb" Subject: RV-List: side stick conversion? > --> RV-List message posted by: "ryan gottlieb" > > > has anyone ever converted the center stick to a side stick? I would like to do this with the RV10(if i ever get one :) I like the center stick, but for long cross country trips, I would rather have my lap free, and allow my right seat passenger the luxury of changing positions, or reaching in the back with out hitting the stick. what are your thoughts? Thanks, Ryan > > > Expand your wine savvy and get some great new recipes at MSN Wine. > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:31:51 AM PST US From: "Mike Nellis" Subject: RE: RV-List: Fire wall sealant --> RV-List message posted by: "Mike Nellis" Or you could just get this stuff from Vans. http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1073362941-424-633 &browse=new&product=cs1900 Mike Nellis RV-6 Fuselage Skinning N699BM 1947 Stinson 108-2 NC9666K http://bmnellis.com *** -----Original Message----- *** From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com *** [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of *** RSamuelson@aol.com *** Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 9:59 AM *** To: rv-list@matronics.com *** Subject: RV-List: Fire wall sealant *** *** *** --> RV-List message posted by: RSamuelson@aol.com *** *** Does anyone have experience with "Fire Break 814"? I was *** thinking of using it *** in place of Hi Temp RTV in sealing joints on an RV7A. *** *** Fire Break 814 is a commercial fire and draft sealant, *** rated at 3000 deg F *** for 8 hours. *** It's non-toxic, non-corrosive, water clean-up. I got it at *** my local hardware *** store. *** *** Thanks for the help *** *** Roy Samuelson *** *** *** ============== *** Matronics Forums. *** ============== *** ============== *** ============== *** *** *** *** *** *** *** ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:32:47 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: Fire wall sealant From: glenn.williams@businessacft.bombardier.com 01/06/2004 10:54:35 AM --> RV-List message posted by: glenn.williams@businessacft.bombardier.com If you have any left over proseal it is a good firewall sealant to use as well. We use it on pressure bulkheads etc. on corporate aircraft. Try it and save a little money. Regards Glenn Williams By the way I got orders Saturday and I am not going to Iraq. For any of you who are wondering do not archive ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:21:02 AM PST US From: "Kyle Boatright" Subject: Re: RV-List: 2004 Sun 100 Air Race? --> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Gummo" Subject: Re: RV-List: 2004 Sun 100 Air Race? > --> RV-List message posted by: "Tom Gummo" > > I don't know about this race but the Golden West and Copperstate races were > cancelled. These races were sponsored by Aircraft Spruce and the rumor was > that Spruce's became afraid of liability if anything happened. Pilots were > required to have 1,000,000 dollar of insurance but you know who would the > lawyers would have gone after had there been a problem. > > Tom Gummo > Apple Valley, CA > Harmon Rocket-II > > do not archive After witnessing last year's race, I can see why the sponsors might be worried. I was on the flightline watching the Sun 100 (probably my 7th or 8th race as a spectator) and saw what appeared to be a near-miss directly overhead. FYI, the course is designed up to put the racers on a long offset final approach as they complete the race. There is a "pylon" west of the airport which the aircraft are supposed to round to line them up for the run to the finish line... In any case, an RV cut the last pylon and intercepted the stream of racers from about a 30 degree angle, right over the homebuilt parking area. Fortunately, there was no conflict with any aircraft flying the correct course/path. Unfortunately, another aircraft (maybe a Lancair?) had made the mistake of following the RV. It was very close behind the RV, slightly inside the RV's turn, and gaining as the two aircraft rejoined the race path. As both aircraft turned back to the race heading, they passed very close - probably 100' vertical separation, with little or no lateral separation. I saw this entire scene unfolding, and *knew* that the Lancair pilot had lost sight of the RV, because both aircraft were turning fairly tightly to rejoin the correct traffic path and the Lancair's nose probably blocked the RV from sight... It was about 5 seconds of that "Oh s**t, something BAD is about to happen" feelings. I was quite relieved when the aircraft didn't collide. KB ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:22:29 AM PST US From: Wheeler North Subject: RV-List: APV --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North Yo, Gummo, I was at APV on New Years day and there was no one around. Someday pop me a number or something I can find you by. Lets see, the winds that day were 12kts rwy 07 at AJO, 6kts rwy 26 at Redlands, and 22kts rwy 18 at APV, all within 30 odd miles of each other, go figure. W ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:42:30 AM PST US From: "Paul Pflimlin" , , , , Subject: RV-List: Re: RV7-List: I made a donation & I'm registering as a Marrow donor --> RV-List message posted by: "Paul Pflimlin" In the interest of elimlinating SPAM, what the hell does this msg. got to do with RV's?? ----- Original Message ----- From: "C. Rabaut" ; ; ; "" ; Subject: RV7-List: I made a donation & I'm registering as a Marrow donor > --> RV7-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" > > Okay Guys (and Gals), > > Donating was the EASY part (you can do it too, it will only hurt when my wife aka "my banker" finds out). I also did some soul searching, cuz' it's gonna take a lot of time & traveling, but I decided I'm gonna be tested as a donor. I just registered and now I wait to get an appointment to be tested. I gotta go up to Stanford Medical Center (it's the closest donor center to me) and I'll let you all know how it goes. > > I hope some other folks will consider taking the plunge, either donating $ or becoming a blood/marrow donor or both... ya'll know it's for good/deserving people. > > check out > > http://www.marrow.org/HELP/join_the_registry.html > > or > www.transplants.org > > > Take Care and Take Air my friends, > > Chuck > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:45:25 AM PST US From: Jim Sears Subject: Re: RV-List: side stick conversion? --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears > has anyone ever converted the center stick to a side stick? I would like to do this > with the RV10(if i ever get one :) I like the center stick, but for long cross country > trips, I would rather have my lap free, and allow my right seat passenger the > luxury of changing positions, or reaching in the back with out hitting the stick. > what are your thoughts? Thanks, Ryan From what I've seen with the side sticks, it would almost be like using a yoke in that one's arm/hand stays put for long periods of time. This can lead to fatigue in that arm when on a long cross country. I've found the stick between the legs to be so much more comfortable to use than the yoke, even though it can get in the way of one who might like to move around a lot. As for the passenger, that's no problem at all. I don't put the stick in the stick assembly. I keep it next to the passenger seat in case the passenger might need it in an emergency. I guess I don't put that much in my lap that it's a problem, either. I can use one leg, or the other. I've flown Scooter for up to about three hours per leg on a trip and found it to be comfortable. Yeah, the stick does get in the way, at times; but, I've found it to not be that much of a problem for me because I don't move around that much. I don't suffer from a sore arm like I did with the C172 and Cheetah that I used to own. Both had yokes. I've noticed the Zenith Zodiac uses a center stick with two little side grips off of it. I can't see how anyone can fly that for very long without getting cramps in the arm. Maybe I'm wrong; but, it just doesn't remind me of what I'd like to have for a comfortable stick location. If memory serves me, Van's crew did try to come up with an arrangement like a side stick and decided to not use it. They ran into several problems. Thus, the old reliable two stick assembly we're used to is still there. Don't fix what ain't broke and KISS work for me! Jim Sears in KY RV-6A N198JS (Scooter) EAA Tech Counselor do not archive ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:28:44 AM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: RV7-List: I made a donation & I'm registering as a Marrow donor --> RV-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" Maybe I can explain. We are talking about airplanes and presumably most if not all of us are pilots or aviators or airmen of one sort or another. Mr. Haynes, through one of the most extraordinary acts of airmanship that I have every heard of, saved the lives of something like 75 passengers by landing an airliner on a runway after all control of the control surfaces of the airplane had been lost. He and his crew managed to land the airplane with nothing more than engine controls. These days when anyone getting injured gets called a hero, to many of us Capt. Haynes is the real thing. Now his daughter must find a bone marrow donor to survive. Capt. Haynes is asking for help, and many of us are glad that Chuck brought it to our attention. No, it's not "RV related", but I think it was appropriate. Many may disagree. I see your message went to 8 mailing lists. Spam, maybe? Terry Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Paul Pflimlin rv4-list@matronics.com; rv3-list@matronics.com; rocket-list@matronics.com; rv6-list@matronics.com Subject: RV-List: Re: RV7-List: I made a donation & I'm registering as a Marrow donor --> RV-List message posted by: "Paul Pflimlin" In the interest of elimlinating SPAM, what the hell does this msg. got to do with RV's?? ----- Original Message ----- From: "C. Rabaut" ; ; ; "" ; Subject: RV7-List: I made a donation & I'm registering as a Marrow donor > --> RV7-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" > > Okay Guys (and Gals), > > Donating was the EASY part (you can do it too, it will only hurt when my wife aka "my banker" finds out). I also did some soul searching, cuz' it's gonna take a lot of time & traveling, but I decided I'm gonna be tested as a donor. I just registered and now I wait to get an appointment to be tested. I gotta go up to Stanford Medical Center (it's the closest donor center to me) and I'll let you all know how it goes. > > I hope some other folks will consider taking the plunge, either donating $ or becoming a blood/marrow donor or both... ya'll know it's for good/deserving people. > > check out > > http://www.marrow.org/HELP/join_the_registry.html > > or > www.transplants.org > > > Take Care and Take Air my friends, > > Chuck > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 01:00:03 PM PST US From: "Aaron Villery" Subject: Re: RV-List: side stick conversion? --> RV-List message posted by: "Aaron Villery" A removable stick for the passenger side would probably be your best bet for letting the passenger be free to sit how they like. You could probably make a slick click-in system. Just use a spring loaded piston that clicks into a hole on the receiving end of the stick. The piston moves up at the hole and locks into position until the piston is depressed and can be slid out of the receiving tube easily. Aaron Villery F1 Rocket SN138 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Sears" Subject: Re: RV-List: side stick conversion? > --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears > > > has anyone ever converted the center stick to a side stick? I would like > to do this > with the RV10(if i ever get one :) I like the center stick, but > for long cross country > trips, I would rather have my lap free, and allow > my right seat passenger the > > luxury of changing positions, or reaching in the back with out hitting the > stick. > > what are your thoughts? Thanks, Ryan > > From what I've seen with the side sticks, it would almost be like using a > yoke in that one's arm/hand stays put for long periods of time. This can > lead to fatigue in that arm when on a long cross country. I've found the > stick between the legs to be so much more comfortable to use than the yoke, > even though it can get in the way of one who might like to move around a > lot. As for the passenger, that's no problem at all. I don't put the stick > in the stick assembly. I keep it next to the passenger seat in case the > passenger might need it in an emergency. I guess I don't put that much in > my lap that it's a problem, either. I can use one leg, or the other. > > I've flown Scooter for up to about three hours per leg on a trip and found > it to be comfortable. Yeah, the stick does get in the way, at times; but, > I've found it to not be that much of a problem for me because I don't move > around that much. I don't suffer from a sore arm like I did with the C172 > and Cheetah that I used to own. Both had yokes. > > I've noticed the Zenith Zodiac uses a center stick with two little side > grips off of it. I can't see how anyone can fly that for very long without > getting cramps in the arm. Maybe I'm wrong; but, it just doesn't remind me > of what I'd like to have for a comfortable stick location. > > If memory serves me, Van's crew did try to come up with an arrangement like > a side stick and decided to not use it. They ran into several problems. > Thus, the old reliable two stick assembly we're used to is still there. > Don't fix what ain't broke and KISS work for me! > > Jim Sears in KY > RV-6A N198JS (Scooter) > EAA Tech Counselor > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 01:31:43 PM PST US From: "C. Rabaut" , , , , Subject: RV-List: Re: RV4-List: Re: RV7-List: I made a donation & I'm registering as a Marrow donor --> RV-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" Paul, You're absolutely right. I sit corrected. Chuck do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Pflimlin ; ; ; ; Subject: RV4-List: Re: RV7-List: I made a donation & I'm registering as a Marrow donor > --> RV4-List message posted by: "Paul Pflimlin" > > In the interest of elimlinating SPAM, what the hell does this msg. got to do > with RV's?? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "C. Rabaut" > To: ; ; > ; ; > ; "" > ; > Subject: RV7-List: I made a donation & I'm registering as a Marrow donor > > > > --> RV7-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" > > > > Okay Guys (and Gals), > > > > Donating was the EASY part (you can do it too, it will only hurt when > my wife aka "my banker" finds out). I also did some soul searching, cuz' > it's gonna take a lot of time & traveling, but I decided I'm gonna be tested > as a donor. I just registered and now I wait to get an appointment to be > tested. I gotta go up to Stanford Medical Center (it's the closest donor > center to me) and I'll let you all know how it goes. > > > > I hope some other folks will consider taking the plunge, either > donating $ or becoming a blood/marrow donor or both... ya'll know it's for > good/deserving people. > > > > check out > > > > http://www.marrow.org/HELP/join_the_registry.html > > > > or > > www.transplants.org > > > > > > Take Care and Take Air my friends, > > > > Chuck > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 02:16:59 PM PST US From: "Tom Gummo" Subject: Re: RV-List: APV --> RV-List message posted by: "Tom Gummo" > Yo, Gummo, > > I was at APV on New Years day and there was no one around. Someday pop me a > number or something I can find you by. > The phone book under Thomas Gummo :-) 242-2669 works too. Tom Gummo Apple Valley, CA Harmon Rocket-II do not archive http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 02:17:14 PM PST US From: Jerry Springer Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: RV7-List: I made a donation & I'm registering as a Marrow donor --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer Good job Terry, lot more polite than I would have done it. :-) Just to add a little bit more to your explanation there has not been any other pilots flying simulators that have been able to do what the crew of his airplane did that day. Jerry do not archive Terry Watson wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" > >Maybe I can explain. We are talking about airplanes and presumably most if >not all of us are pilots or aviators or airmen of one sort or another. Mr. >Haynes, through one of the most extraordinary acts of airmanship that I have >every heard of, saved the lives of something like 75 passengers by landing >an airliner on a runway after all control of the control surfaces of the >airplane had been lost. He and his crew managed to land the airplane with >nothing more than engine controls. These days when anyone getting injured >gets called a hero, to many of us Capt. Haynes is the real thing. Now his >daughter must find a bone marrow donor to survive. Capt. Haynes is asking >for help, and many of us are glad that Chuck brought it to our attention. >No, it's not "RV related", but I think it was appropriate. Many may >disagree. > >I see your message went to 8 mailing lists. Spam, maybe? > >Terry >Do not archive > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Paul Pflimlin >To: rv7-list@matronics.com; rv-list@matronics.com; RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com; >rv4-list@matronics.com; rv3-list@matronics.com; rocket-list@matronics.com; >rv6-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV-List: Re: RV7-List: I made a donation & I'm registering as a >Marrow donor > >--> RV-List message posted by: "Paul Pflimlin" > >In the interest of elimlinating SPAM, what the hell does this msg. got to do >with RV's?? > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "C. Rabaut" >To: ; ; >; ; >; "" >; >Subject: RV7-List: I made a donation & I'm registering as a Marrow donor > > > > >>--> RV7-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" >> >>Okay Guys (and Gals), >> >> Donating was the EASY part (you can do it too, it will only hurt when >> >> >my wife aka "my banker" finds out). I also did some soul searching, cuz' >it's gonna take a lot of time & traveling, but I decided I'm gonna be tested >as a donor. I just registered and now I wait to get an appointment to be >tested. I gotta go up to Stanford Medical Center (it's the closest donor >center to me) and I'll let you all know how it goes. > > >> I hope some other folks will consider taking the plunge, either >> >> >donating $ or becoming a blood/marrow donor or both... ya'll know it's for >good/deserving people. > > >>check out >> >>http://www.marrow.org/HELP/join_the_registry.html >> >>or >>www.transplants.org >> >> >>Take Care and Take Air my friends, >> >> Chuck >> >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:54:15 PM PST US From: "Jim Bower" Subject: Re: RV-List: light weight propellers --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Bower" I would like to see more on this...I am going to be running an O-320 with a 3-blade Catto wood prop. I have never heard of any problems related to this combo. One of my fellow chapter members has an RV-4 that has flown with an O-320/wood prop for a long long time. Jim Bower St. Louis RV-6A Fuselage >From: Doug Gray >Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: light weight propellers >Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 18:35:18 +1100 > >--> RV-List message posted by: Doug Gray > >At 3200 rpm I should imagine all bets were off. IMHO it would be a very >long shot to attribute this to the resonance in the gear case. > >What did this engineer have to say about wooden props? Some of these >are surely lighter than the Aerocomposite or Whirlwind propellers. > >The issue should really be the inertial mass (or moment of inertia). Is > this is even lower than for a conventional wooden prop? If so then you >would expect to have problems idleing and starting. > >Doug Gray > >LeastDrag93066@aol.com wrote: > > --> RV-List message posted by: LeastDrag93066@aol.com > > > > Hi All, > > > > I had an interesting conversation with an engineer at Lycoming recently >about > > the non-counterweighted crankshaft Lycoming O-360 engine. > > > > According to the Lycoming engineer, a light weight propeller can cause >the > > harmonic vibrations of the engine to be reduced into the normal RPM >operating > > range of the engine. > > > > What was interesting was that the problems occur in the accessory case >gears > > in the engine. The engineer said that the harmonic in the accessory >case > > gears can cause the magneto(s) to fail and the fuel pump to fail. > > > > The Lycoming engineer said that Hartzell, Sensenich and MT Propellers >have > > been approved by Lycoming. Therefore, they do not have this harmonic >problem in > > the normal RPM operating range. > > > > The engineer also said that they normally test the manufactures >propeller on > > their engine when one of the Lycoming distributors is planning to sell >that > > propeller with their Lycoming engine. > > > > The Lycoming engineer I talked to did not know what an Aerocomposite or > > Whirlwind propeller was. He indicated that they had not been tested by >Lycoming. > > > > The conversation trigger two items for me. > > 1.) A previous posting by someone with a fixed pitch propeller on a Lyc. >360 > > who had magneto failures and had installed an electronic ignition. It >would > > be worthwhile for this person to call Lycoming and have a talk with >them, > > himself. > > > > 2.) I briefly flew my RV-3 with the Lycoming O-290 with an underpitched >fixed > > pitch propeller at 3200 RPM. I say briefly because the wet compass >started > > rotating at about 60 RPM. Now I know where the high frequency vibration > > originated. The accessory case gears. Very bad. > > > > Jim Ayers > > Get reliable dial-up Internet access now with our limited-time introductory ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 03:37:02 PM PST US From: "Steve&Anita Nyman" Subject: RV-List: RE: Counterbalanced crank shaft --> RV-List message posted by: "Steve&Anita Nyman" Thanks Terry, I will definitely call AeroSport tomorrow. Steve RV7QB MEM ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 03:40:04 PM PST US From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: Re: RV-List: APV --> RV-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" AND if he's next door (that's my home) or away from the phone you can reach KABONG at 760-946-2714. I repeat, if the hanger door's open or if you get us by phone ya'll are welcome any time. KABONG (GBA) 8*) Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Gummo" Subject: Re: RV-List: APV > > Yo, Gummo, > > I was at APV on New Years day and there was no one around. Someday pop me > The phone book under Thomas Gummo :-) > 242-2669 works too. > > Tom Gummo > Apple Valley, CA > Harmon Rocket-II > > do not archive ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:57:13 PM PST US From: "RV_8 Pilot" Subject: Re: RV-List: 2004 Sun 100 Air Race? --> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" The whole thing was pretty darn straightforward, it seemed to me. pretty much single file unless passing someone. the passer has the obligation to stay clear to the outside, above or wherever will keep you safely separated. From a quick read of your story, it sounds like Mr/Ms Lancair screwed up. Why would a 250+-kt plane be at the same elevation as an RV when passing the finish line? There was no vertical upper limit. Sounds like a bad decision made by the Lancair pilot. As for radical turning in the proximity of the final pylon, well all I can say is *don't be stupid* (like radical turns trying to save ~0.01 seconds at the last pylon). Two things that are for sure - 1. the only way to totally eliminate racing risk is to eliminate races, 2. there are stupid people everywhere. I raced last year. I thought it was reasonably well run and safe from my vantage point. As for that 5 seconds of "oh $H**"... that sounds like the entire apch and landing process at SNF! Bryan Jones -8 www.LoneStarSquadron.com Houston, Texas do not archive >After witnessing last year's race, I can see why the sponsors might be >worried. I was on the flightline watching the Sun 100 (probably my 7th or >8th race as a spectator) and saw what appeared to be a near-miss directly >overhead. FYI, the course is designed up to put the racers on a long >offset final approach as they complete the race. There is a "pylon" west of >the airport which the aircraft are supposed to round to line them up for >the >run to the finish line... > >In any case, an RV cut the last pylon and intercepted the stream of racers >from about a 30 degree angle, right over the homebuilt parking area. >Fortunately, there was no conflict with any aircraft flying the correct >course/path. Unfortunately, another aircraft (maybe a Lancair?) had made >the mistake of following the RV. It was very close behind the RV, slightly >inside the RV's turn, and gaining as the two aircraft rejoined the race >path. As both aircraft turned back to the race heading, they passed very >close - probably 100' vertical separation, with little or no lateral >separation. I saw this entire scene unfolding, and *knew* that the Lancair >pilot had lost sight of the RV, because both aircraft were turning fairly >tightly to rejoin the correct traffic path and the Lancair's nose probably >blocked the RV from sight... > Make your home warm and cozy this winter with tips from MSN House & Home. http://special.msn.com/home/warmhome.armx ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 03:59:06 PM PST US From: Jeff Point Subject: RV-List: Proprietary AOA flap switch --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point Anyone using the Proprietary Systems AOA unit have pictures of their flap position switch installation? Jeff Point RV-6 finishing up, almost there Milwaukee WI ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 04:11:01 PM PST US From: John Mcmahon Subject: Re: RV-List: Proprietary AOA flap switch --> RV-List message posted by: John Mcmahon Jeff Yep,I will try to send ya a pic of what I did (near paint) John McMahon (rv6 0/360/c/s) Gallatin.Tn Jeff Point wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point > >Anyone using the Proprietary Systems AOA unit have pictures of their >flap position switch installation? > >Jeff Point >RV-6 finishing up, almost there >Milwaukee WI > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 05:56:41 PM PST US From: "Ron Burnett" Subject: Re: RV-List: side stick conversion? --> RV-List message posted by: "Ron Burnett" You might consider securing the stick in the manner that a swimming pool basket is attached to the aluminum pole. You can purchase one at any swimming pool supply store. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Villery" Subject: Re: RV-List: side stick conversion? > --> RV-List message posted by: "Aaron Villery" > > A removable stick for the passenger side would probably be your best bet for > letting the passenger be free to sit how they like. You could probably make > a slick click-in system. Just use a spring loaded piston that clicks into a > hole on the receiving end of the stick. The piston moves up at the hole and > locks into position until the piston is depressed and can be slid out of the > receiving tube easily. > > Aaron Villery > F1 Rocket SN138 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Sears" > To: > Subject: Re: RV-List: side stick conversion? > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears > > > > > has anyone ever converted the center stick to a side stick? I would like > > to do this > with the RV10(if i ever get one :) I like the center stick, > but > > for long cross country > trips, I would rather have my lap free, and allow > > my right seat passenger the > > > luxury of changing positions, or reaching in the back with out hitting > the > > stick. > > > what are your thoughts? Thanks, Ryan > > > > From what I've seen with the side sticks, it would almost be like using a > > yoke in that one's arm/hand stays put for long periods of time. This can > > lead to fatigue in that arm when on a long cross country. I've found the > > stick between the legs to be so much more comfortable to use than the > yoke, > > even though it can get in the way of one who might like to move around a > > lot. As for the passenger, that's no problem at all. I don't put the > stick > > in the stick assembly. I keep it next to the passenger seat in case the > > passenger might need it in an emergency. I guess I don't put that much in > > my lap that it's a problem, either. I can use one leg, or the other. > > > > I've flown Scooter for up to about three hours per leg on a trip and found > > it to be comfortable. Yeah, the stick does get in the way, at times; but, > > I've found it to not be that much of a problem for me because I don't move > > around that much. I don't suffer from a sore arm like I did with the C172 > > and Cheetah that I used to own. Both had yokes. > > > > I've noticed the Zenith Zodiac uses a center stick with two little side > > grips off of it. I can't see how anyone can fly that for very long > without > > getting cramps in the arm. Maybe I'm wrong; but, it just doesn't remind > me > > of what I'd like to have for a comfortable stick location. > > > > If memory serves me, Van's crew did try to come up with an arrangement > like > > a side stick and decided to not use it. They ran into several problems. > > Thus, the old reliable two stick assembly we're used to is still there. > > Don't fix what ain't broke and KISS work for me! > > > > Jim Sears in KY > > RV-6A N198JS (Scooter) > > EAA Tech Counselor > > do not archive > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 05:56:41 PM PST US From: N67BT@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Proprietary AOA flap switch --> RV-List message posted by: N67BT@aol.com I currently have a shot of the setup for my RV7A on my update web site which includes a flap position sensor on the same bracket. For those interested, there is also a photo of the connector I used for the Infinity grip cable. See http://users.aol.com/n67bt Bob Trumpfheller Anyone using the Proprietary Systems AOA unit have pictures of their flap position switch installation? Jeff Point ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 06:52:35 PM PST US From: "Larry Bowen" Subject: RE: RV-List: Proprietary AOA flap switch --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" This is mine: http://bowenaero.com/copper/displayimage.php?album=15&pos=0 I've since put some plugs on the switches, but you can get the general idea. - Larry Bowen Larry@BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff Point [mailto:jpoint@mindspring.com] > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 7:06 PM > To: RV List > Subject: RV-List: Proprietary AOA flap switch > > > --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point > > Anyone using the Proprietary Systems AOA unit have pictures of their > flap position switch installation? > > Jeff Point > RV-6 finishing up, almost there > Milwaukee WI ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 07:18:05 PM PST US From: John Mcmahon Subject: Re: RV-List: Proprietary AOA flap switch --> RV-List message posted by: John Mcmahon Jeff Here ya go !!! john McMahon Jeff Point wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point > >Anyone using the Proprietary Systems AOA unit have pictures of their >flap position switch installation? > >Jeff Point >RV-6 finishing up, almost there >Milwaukee WI > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 07:18:05 PM PST US From: "Tim Lewis" Subject: RV-List: Re: Cracked AN470AD4 rivets when using a pneumatic squeezer. rick.conti@boeing.com tests=DATE_IN_FUTURE_03_06 --> RV-List message posted by: "Tim Lewis" > I think maybe you need to set those "improved" rivet sets and try the > "std" items and see what your results are. That's where I'd start in > trying to isolate the cause of your cracked shop heads. I use a > pneumatic squeezer with air pressure 110psi and never crack any > rivets. This turned out to be what was needed. I had "improved" my rivet set (ground it at slight angle) because I kept getting off-center shop heads on AN470AD4-x rivets using the pneumatic squeezer. I went back and tried Fred Kunkel's (clearairtools.com) recommended technique with normal sets -- the problem seems to have been solved. Fred's technique: " Try different techniques for squeezing rivets. When I try to squeeze a rivet very slowly, my personal experience is that Im more apt to squeeze it off-center. I get the best results from feathering the set holder to the base of the rivet shank, ensuring that I am square on the rivet, and then completing the stroke in one quick movement. Different techniques may work better for other individuals." (See the last few pages of http://www.rvproject.com/SoCalNewsletters/July2003.pdf ) Thanks! Tim Lewis -- Tim Lewis -- HEF (Manassas, VA) RV-6A N47TD - 600 hrs RV-10 #40059 under construction http://www.geocities.com/timrv6a ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 07:35:42 PM PST US From: "Rick Fogerson" "Chuck Brietigam" Subject: RV-List: Help with 3 blade Catto Prop on RV3 --> RV-List message posted by: "Rick Fogerson" I am ordering a 3 blade Catto prop for my RV3 with 0320 engine. The engine was a rebuilt by AeroSport with dual E.I. and Air Flow Performance fuel injection. I'm not sure what to tell Catto in terms of: 1) max performance HP 2) max RPM at say 8000 ft. 3) max airspeed at say 8000ft. 4) other useful info. in order for him to carve the prop. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Rick Fogerson finishing wiring Boise, ID ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 07:37:37 PM PST US From: N223RV@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Flap motor failure --> RV-List message posted by: N223RV@aol.com I had my flap motor fail at just under 100 hours in my RV-4. I started at the flap switch and traced the current all the way to the motor. I had to remove the front seat, carpet, and the front seat floor. Once I determined it was getting current, I tapped on it a few times and it started working. I cleaned the motor with electrical degreaser the best I could and it has worked flawlessly the last 5 hours........ -Mike Kraus N223RV RV-4 Flying with just over 100 hours ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 08:07:34 PM PST US From: N90ATC@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Re: Al Haynes needs our help --> RV-List message posted by: N90ATC@aol.com I am currently starting my RV7 fuselage and I am glad word about Al Haynes' daughter is getting out. You see, I was the controller working the UAL flight at Sioux City that day when Al Haynes brought it in. You would not believe where the landing gear hit on the runway before it rolled over on him. He landed the crippled aircraft on a permanently closed runway that was crumbling due to years of no maintenance. His gear touched down just past the numbers. I have pictures taken the day after and am still amazed at the airmanship displayed that day. Al is a great guy. He has already lost his wife and son. Now his daughter is very ill. I contributed (tax deductible) through the transplants.org website. What is really pulls at your heart...and your wallet... is all the people on the list that need funds to make the transplant happen. This site will be a regular stop for me. Here you know your contribution is going to a specific purpose. I have posted the story at work, NY Approach Control, and several controllers have mentioned that they will be contributing even though they do not know him personally. They recognize he has been and is an ambassador to all that is right in the aviation world. Thanks for reading the non-RV post. Back to bending longerons now. :) Kevin Bachman N900KB (Reserved) ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 09:21:55 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: manual engine pre-oiler From: j1j2h3@juno.com --> RV-List message posted by: j1j2h3@juno.com Eastwood Company - www.eastwoodcompany.com - sells these for cars. I'm sure you could adapt one to a Lycoming or anything else. Jim Hasper - RV-7 just starting empennage (setting up shop in Franklin, Tennessee) > --> RV-List message posted by: "thomas a. sargent" (snip) >I was thinking about a device to pressurize the oil system before each and every engine start. > ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 09:43:11 PM PST US From: "Dave" Subject: RV-List: Fw: !988 RV-4 Complete kit. How Much is it worth? PLING_QUERY, TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL --> RV-List message posted by: "Dave" Listers, A friend has a complete RV-4 kit, about the 1988 vintage. He has the tail finished, the wings are done except for the tanks. The fuselage and the finish kit are still in the boxes. He has lost interest, any idea how much the complete kit would be worth? Thanks Dave do not archive ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 10:14:37 PM PST US From: LeastDrag93066@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: light weight propellers --> RV-List message posted by: LeastDrag93066@aol.com The Lycoming 320 engine was not discussed with the Lycoming engineer. The Lycoming 360 engine with the counterweighted crankshaft was not discussed, either. Only the Lycoming 360 engine with the non-counterweighted crankshaft was the subject of my conversation with Lycoming. It is this engine that produces an unacceptable load in the 2000 to 2300 RPM range for most propellers. From this discussion, the Lycoming engineer addressed what they look for when they test a propeller on their engine. Still the non-counterweighted crankshaft 360 engine. In discussing this engine, he expressed a concern about using a light weight propeller. My questions of the Lycoming engineer were very specific to some propeller performance testing I was going to be doing. I'm sorry if I created some confusion in passing along what I learned from the Lycoming engineer. Jim Ayers